Talk:Zulfikar Ali Bhutto/Archive 1
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| Archive 1 |
PHOTO
i really like the color photo that was there before.....could you please put it there again...thx
Could someone elaborate a bit on the charges? It would be nice (if controversial) to hear a little of the evidence for or against his guilt. If there is none, that's pretty remarkable... --Andrew 05:52, Apr 15, 2004 (UTC)
- He was executed for the murder of Ahmad Kasuris father a PPP member of Parliament. Victoria Schofields book is the best source for this and the trial was universally agreed as a farce. Bhutto had committed many wrong acts it is debatable whether he directly ordered someones murder though.
Zak 14:19, 8 March 2006 (UTC) Removed the following:
Zulfikar Ali Bhutto is alive in the hearts of the people of Pakistan and its true that he was hanged because he was big hradle for Americans in the region and a false case was established by a barbarian fundamentalist military dictator Gen Zia. Bhutto is a legend.
Seemed rather POV to me.... 69.18.76.88 03:04, 22 Apr 2004 (UTC)
Removed the following:
- He was one of the few non-military men to have ruled the nation.
seemed rather POV'ish to me.
Added the following in the same place:
- He has the rare distinction of having being a civilian Chief Martial Law Administrator.
Is this too POV'ish?
--iFaqeer 10:35, Sep 15, 2004 (UTC)
Cleaned up Trial; Rests Needs to Be Cleaned
I went through the segment on Bhutto's trial and death, since the original entry pretty much excused Zia and made it seem as though Zia's persecution of Bhutto was purely out of justice and not due to political objectives. This is my first edit, and I have tried to keep it non-POV. My main source of information was the Wolpert book, which I added to the sources. The rest of this article needs to be cleaned up, as there are several misspelled words and grammatical errors.
There is no evidence as to whether Zulfiqar Bhutto was illegitimate. In all records he is mentioned as a legitimate son of Sir Shah Nawaz Bhutto.
20th centuary has seen many great leaders, Mr. Bhutto is one of them,He Rules the hearts of Pakistani people from his grave, he was punished without any evidence, he sacrificed his life for Pakistan & Islamic world, Some powers feared for his vital steps for getting Nuclear Bomb, likely knows as Islamic Bomb, so all happened
JIYA BHUTTO!!!
Bhutto is our hero!
Bhutto is our saviour!
Bhutto is our marter!
No one in Pakistan did anything for the poor. Bhutto sacrificed his life, his liberty and his family all for his people. The 20th has had a lot of great leaders none come anwhere as close to greatness as bhutto did.
Zindah ha, Bhutto, Zindah ha
Sir hold on a bit, take a breath Bhutto was your hero, but please do not consider him hero of all Pakistanis, a very small number of People are fans of him, I think if you open your heart a bit, you will know that Bhutto made some great mistaks that lead Pakistan into serious problems over the year. I have some Pakistani friends here and non of them like him because according to them, he was politically naive.. phippi46 15:26, 13 May 2006 (UTC)
I am sorry you are wrong. The majority of people were his fans. He was constantly democratically elected with landslide victories. His popularuty was the reason Zia couldn't hold elections he knew Bhutto would win. It was his popularity that saw millions suppot his daughter to become te first women leader of a muslim state. I personaly went to his grave for his death anniversary this year and almost decades after his death thousands of still came to mourn him. No other decieced pakistani leader has mouners of that number visiting their graves. You may have some pakistani friends who agree with you but the majority of pakistan agrees with me!
No man is perfect, I am sure errors were made. In the time he was in powere he couldn't help every single Pakistani. But what Bhutto achieved for the poor of his country will never be forgotten. We were starving, he fed us. When we were homeless, he provided shelter. We were mute, he gave us a voice. We were dying, he saved us! . Everyone is entitled to their opinion, and I'm sorry if you feel that way. However, for a nation that had nothing Bhutto did a lot. The way he sacrificed his life for us is nohing short of heroic. JIYA BHUTTO!
It is shamefull for Pakistan in your words that they treated your great leader with this disrespect, the life he spend and life of his childern are full of so called Bad lucks and they still facing that, not to forget the his daughter and first Pakistani women Prime Minister Benezir Bhutto facing alot of cases of corruption in Pakistan and outside the country. Why on the name of God so much bad happend with this so nice family.. do you know? phippi46 16:10, 30 May 2006 (UTC)
Reply: Although i am sure that statement was dripping in sarcasm i will respond as if it were a real question. The military along with islamic extremeist have taken it uon them selves to victimise and defile the names of our geat leaders. They attempted to do this with the case aginst Z. Bhutto, but no one believed the charges, and today even the judge who conviceted him admits he was forced to do so. The witchhunts against MS.Bhutto, her husband and other political allies are motivated by fear of the undying support for them by the poor of pakistan, (the poor people account for the majority of the country). They have filed more than 90 cases against the couple and i personally hold this as proof of heir innocence as not a single case gave a conviction. All heros must endure some sort of persicution from their rivals, Phrophet Mohammed PBUH was stoned, chased and persicuted. Jesus Christ PBUH was crucified.Even modern political heros like Nelson mendella were imprisoned, does this mean they weren't vitorious? Z.Bhutto was hangged, Zardari was imprioned and tortre Ms bhutto has been imprisoned and exiled. But they will bring democracy back to Pakistan. JIYA BHUTTO.
Please do not give Mr Bhutto almost same status as were those great Prophets. This is totally different matter, an ordinary man with Political legacy, his downfall and aftermath has nothing to do with this thing. Still, after these long years, nothing changes and these poor people who are in mejority of Pakistan still choosing other leaders to stay in Government, although (in your openion) they like Mr. Bhutto and his policies. No to forget about the stay of Ms Bhutto outside the country and a strange silence that she took for almost 3 or 4 years and all of the sudden she just announced cooperation with Mr. Nawaz Sharif, which she opposed so much in Past.. is she forgot everything, what she was saying in past about him. Is political leader of Pakistan are just who do anything to get back in Government, as any cost ? If Bhutto family was so good to hold their belief and principals, then this should'nt happend. phippi46 10:18, 1 June 2006 (UTC)
The enemy of my enemy is my friend. Although Bhutto may be opposed to Nawaz Sharif's rule, and i cannot blame her some of the things he did in govenrment are unforgivable, Ms. Bhutto has chosen to put aside her personal beliefs and do what is best for the country and what she truley believes in, making pakistan a democracy. This is only possible by joining forces with other parties. As for your claim that she was silent for 3 or 4 years that is rubbish, she has been fighting for the pakistani people througout her time in exile. She has been leading her party who are her eyes and ears in the country. Giving lecture and sppeches to inform the world about our condition. She has even been resposible for the dialogue between India and Pakistan, a year befor musharraff visited India BB went to the country, she knew that musharraf would want to pretend he is interested in the same things as her and was forced to start communicaing. The fact that you can claim she has been silent for 4 years suggests ur ignorance of the issues conerning her and her family and accounts for why you have such negitive opinions on them as you are only hearing the current regiems opinion on the matter.
I have no problem to understand that you are a die hard type of fan of this family, this is why you take things with different eye, any way as you suggested that I may be listening of the current regiems is again your own openion without any prove. I was watching her and Nawaz Sharif for quite a time, and I was wondering that why they choose this particular time to join their forces. I think Nawaz Sharif left the country with an agreement with current regiem to stay outside of interfering matter to Pakistan. Ms Bhutto left the country only to avoid different cases against her in the country. She even recently avoid to give answer in a case regarding buying of some jewelry from a famous jewler, now I have no problem to take these two leaders as honourable and respectful, but they can not justify mistakes they made and run away from them. You admit yourself that mistakes were made, so why should openly admit them and accept the responsibility. If a case has been made against them on some of these mistakes then they should face them. History provide all of the proves, is Pakistan was stable country from 1989 till 2000, was economy was healthy, was people of Pakistan faces a low crime rate, the poor of Pakistan were getting benefits from the both Governments, was political stability was healthy, and statements like that "these Pakistanis Government chages so quickly that even I can not change my Lungi that quickly" from an Indian politician, was just a joke. Now I have no doubt that the current Government also not providing what they claimed when they came to power, so what, they are still the same people, with just different parties, playing still the same game. So how can you claim that these people when they come back to Pakistan will able to win a mojority in Assembly and will be friends during formation of Govenrment and not fight on formation of goernment. Can you answer me, if a quolation government of Nawaz Sharif and Ms Bhutto, let say win the next election, will they be able to settle just one thing. "Who will be the next Prime Minister". Sir, the can not. I don'nt have to give you proove, you know better then me. phippi46 23:52, 1 June 2006 (UTC)
Don't comfuse the mistakes made in government with the cases against them, every single case against Ms. Is false. You say we can learn from history so lets look back. Fraudulent cases were filed agains Mr Bhutto, the judges have now admittedit and if you were to examine the evidence it is blatentley clear. False cases were filed agains nelson Mendella, we know he was innocent. Hitler and Stalin both filed cases against their opponents they were all fake. Ms.Bhutto and her husband have had 90 cases filed againse them, not a single convition over 8 years has been recieved. Mr. Zardari was tortured in prison. This is obviouly political victimisation. I am sure mistakes were made in Both bhutto governments, none of which merit prosecution. Their mistakes was trusing a Presiden who was only interested in his own intrests and having faih in the countries army and police that they would protect any citizen, including her late brother. You are classifing all goverments as the same but there is one fundemental difference what Mrs. bhutto does she does for the people of pakistan. if Musharraff is combating terrorism he is doeing so for the american peple not for pakistanies. He has committed treason by allowing americans to murder our own cizilians. In answer to you final question, it is always the party who gained the larges seats that become prime minister even after they join the coalition. And if they both have to decide amongst them selves i am sure that just like in germany the woman will be come prime minister. I am sur u can tell that i am a supporter of bhutto's regieme but i wasn't always. I too like you believed all the news paper artilcs i read and acused them of being corrupt, but when i decided to write an article on the subject i started to do some research and the facts didn't add up. in 1989 Ms. was only in government for a few months and the managed to accuses her of corruption although it was the first time in 8 years that investment in the country increased. if the PPP government was truley so corrupt that their to maine leader could have 90 cases against them, why did the GNP increase between her second rule? If they realy are corrupt why hacnt they been convicted?
I am not confuse at all sir, but I know for sure that this will not the case if Mr. Nawaz Sharif and Ms Bhutto has to decide who will take the job of Prime Minister, in Germany Angela Mercel took office, while her party won more seats and that is why she took the job, other wise it would'nt be the case, but in case of PPP and PML joining theire forces, there will be big big horse trading and sir, you know that, it is already happend, in both Nawaz and Ms Bhutto Government and not one time but on both occossion when they trying to get more more seats in order to secure Government and your own Media reported several stories where peoples from both parties were offered money in order to change their support. I think this fact should not be treated as a misleaded news story ?
The hose trading that has been reported in the media isn;t between ppp and pml-n it was between these parties and the current government and there are man reasons for this. One perhapse the particular induviduals who changed are more interested in being in power than caring about the country or they have been threatend and bribed. Some of people who have recently switched say they believe in Mr bhutto's philosophey but don't trust Ms. bhutto's leadership, but then why do they jooin a government lead by a dictaor Mr. Bhutto would never have aporved as that! they are just traitors plain and simple. Sir you must understand that when you watch the pakistani news it isn't the same as watching the news in germany, we do not have free press in Pakistan. This means you have to read between the lines, if the media has reported on a member of the PPP joing Mush's regieme and he is currently in hospital reccovering from 'falling down the stairs' or this person has jus bough a new house or has been released from priosn what does this suggest?
I can not agree on that there is no free press in Pakistan at all, it is simply not possible. You can not hide the truth, no matter what you do, it is not possible. However, as you suggested and again sorry to say PPP and PML had made mistakes and some of them were reported in press in Pakistan. It is intresting to see PML's Nawaz Sharif to gathering pace for comming back in Pakistani politics after exiled for couple of years. On which conditions that he was allowed to leave Pakistan is "almost known" to all. Now, joining forces with PPP shows that the both parties have realies that alone winning elections or getting back in power may not be possible. However, if there intentions as they say are good, it does not matter, but notice able thing which some time people ask is, that both parties are opposing the rule of Presedent Musharraf, as they consider him a dictetor. Why in both parties, there are always one leader, why dont Ms Bhutto accept another face to be the leader of her Party or Nawaz Sharif took some body else as leader of the PML. Why they chose them life time leader, is there no one capable ?. It is also dictetorship. Specially for PPP, who support the democracy in Pakistan should set a example for others. But I think its not possible, right ? phippi46 23:40, 3 June 2006 (UTC)
I am sorry, i was a jouranlist in pakistan and if you write an article critising the government, the papers are to sacred after seeing how journalits have been imprisoned and even killed. For this very reason recently jouranlists boycotted the Pakistani journalism awards. last year we staged a press walkout from the assembly for the maltreatement of jouralits covering Zardari's return. I cannot speak for the PML-N but during the last elections the PPP's candiate wan't Ms.Bhutto but it was Muktoum Amine Fahim. However, i didn't like this move because the reason people vote for the PPP for Mrs Bhutto not for the party, if she was to leave the party and run as an independant the PPP voters would vote for her over the party. It is the partyies right to choose a candidate anyway and they choose her, it is the countries right to choose a president and we didn't chose MUSH!
In other words the politics of PPP runing around Ms Bhutto, there is no value of PPP itself. The idealogy of party does not matter but the person and if this person removed from the scene then there will be no value of Party. I think this attitude of the people will not be accepted by later historians, when they write the history of PPP. Why, simply the Person is a temporary entitiy and can not long for ever, however, Idealogy survives, I think this is why there are political unstability in Pakistan that lots of politics moving around the persons not with idealogy. If you see history, Prophet Mohammad (PBUH) gave a unique Idealogy to world, it was not one man show, and here you are around Billion Muslim in the world, following the Idealogy. Pakistan has a potential to lead specially Muslim world, and that is why as a independent observer, I feel some time that the danger always come from inside not from out side when ever Pakistan faces problems. You need to restor the order of the house first, then to think out side and all the personel who live in this house are responsible. no matter which political party they with. phippi46 13:59, 4 June 2006 (UTC)
There is still value in the PPP as long as it follows around the values it was founded under Z.Bhutto. however the people of pakistan have a tenency to support personalities rather that the original policies. Although the parties do gain support based on policies without a great leader there is nothing. Any memeber of the party can try and gain support from the masses but they would be simply unable to bring the crowds Mrs.bhutto can summon. What matters to the masses of pakistan is not only that you will server them, as shoen through your policies but it is proof that you will surve them, By enduring a great deal of personal sacrifices Bhutto has proven to her supporters she is truley willing to do anything for them.
How about the elections ? are they be fair.. or they will be fair if PPP wins the elections. Last time Ms Bhutto accused that elections was rigged and that is why her party failed to gain majority. But it happend all the time, since the start of Pakistani election process, leaders were accusing some time military and some time unknown forces riggin ballet. What is the end of this phippi46 21:18, 8 June 2006 (UTC)
It isn't just MS.Bhutto who said the elections were rigged, anyone with half a brain could figur that out. Even if we ignor the kidnaping of candidates and the constant delays in the arrival of the ballot boxes to their destination. If an entir village has come out in full for heir banners raised and chanting PPP slogans if an other party is booded in the area and they still win is it not suspicious. If human rights groups call the election a farce who should i believe them or the newly 'elected' primemister?
Wah Wah...this is the freedom of speech...I wrote somthing which i saw from my own eyes.Where are my posts? By deleting my posts you can not change their acts.You failed to proof.I think i know you MR.FAn of Bhutto family.I have seen your posts in ORKUT.Good.Extremly coward fan i have ever seen in my life.I am a mad FAN of Mr.Zulfikar Ali Bhuto,but not of his Family.~Airsam~
Well Zulfikar Bhutto wouldn't want you as a fan and nither does his family.
From user dargay: Benazir Bhutto is a time two failure and a thief. She is also the Chairperson for Life of the PPP, which makes her a dictator. This woman had two chances and blew it and does not deserve to be given more chances anymore. She has no support in Pakistan and has fled the country to avoid prosecution is a number of corruption cases.
Reply: I resent these accusation. Firstly the accusation that she is a two time failiure is basless and reveals total ignorance of the issue. Although Ms. Bhutto never got to complete either term, due to her unconstitutional dismissal, the shortest of which lasted 80 days. She made remarkable changes. During both terms poverty was on the decline. She started medicals campaigns which were deemed impossible such as irradicating polio, which reduced both infant anf regularmortality rates. She brought modern technology such as opitical fibers which in creased communication and state revinue, in turn allowing the country to have the capability for internet. She cracked down drug barrens somthing that was never done before and hasn't been attemptedsince. She porvieded forigen technology that gave pakistan the capability to bulild launch faclities for nuclear weapons. She brought in the second larges international investments to date, without have the war on terror as a back drop. The list goes on and on. The definition of a dictator is "a ruler who is unconstrained by law" or "A ruler who is not restricted by a constitution, laws or any opposition" as she in exile and faces charges she cant fall inj the catagory. As for the corruption charges , she has been facing them through her lawyers and from the 90 cases filed againsted her and her spouse overn the last 10 years not a single on has been proven. The recent attorny general report proves that they have been politically motivated.
The things you just mentioned above does not give Ms Bhutto right to claim that she actually made some remakable changes in Pakistani Society. Similar claims can be heard from Mr Nawaz Sharif and latest from the current Govt. It is the job of the Govt to provide the best of his nation, this is not favour but their duty that they have to fulfil. She is a big advocate of democracy in Pakistan, hence she sits on Party leader ship and there is no chance for anyone else to come on this position. In which world real democracy that you can give a single example where a life time chairperson of a party has a same position. All the democracies in the world live on the principal of fair ness, and I am sorry we dont see anything like in PPP. You can call it anything, but it not democracy. phippi46 23:18, 25 August 2006 (UTC)
I didn't claim that any of her achievments were favours they were just to surve as proof that her time in office was by no means considewred failures. As for your second question the Gandi's were annonced as life time leaders of their parties in India, the worlds largest democracy. Also Bhutto didn't asked to be proclaimed chairperson for life she was elected unanimously besides that she still held elections for the posiion in 2002, however no one else even challenged her. Finaly a democrcy is a term that applies only to a country and not to the political parties.
Books?
The "books" section isn't consistent with standard style. Are these references? Further reading? Books with Bhutto's own words in them? Should be renamed and clarified. Citation styles aer also all mixed up and should be standardized. 18.173.1.42 15:59, 4 April 2006 (UTC)
POV=
Information has been added that is definitely POV without any references. Additionally, unverifiable information (or not verified information) is added. Ronels 22:36, 27 April 2006 (UTC) I have added citation needed tag & removed some POvs from the article.Bharatveer 06:19, 15 May 2006 (UTC)
I have removed the word "successfully".Bharatveer 16:08, 17 May 2006 (UTC)
CIA involvement
Even though it's phrased in NPOV terms, I would humbly suggest a few sources to back up allegations or suspicions that the CIA may have been involved. Kitabparast 02:11, 20 June 2006 (UTC)
I'm not fully aware of the situation but US did threaten to make a "horrible example" of him which raises my suspicion.
- I dont think that Mr. Bhutto was that important for CIA to waster there time with him. Such leader creat problems for a small time period and nothing. What lead to him to his death has more to do with his own political actions and mistakes that he made, during his time and he paid the . phippi46 16:06, 26 August 2006 (UTC)
Corruption and Pakistan
- Red Tape, Bureaucracy, Corruption, Political corruption, Bribery, Extortion, Graft, Money Laundering all are part and parcel of Religon. vkvora 05:24, 2 September 2006 (UTC)
Stories from ZA Bhutto
- The appeal was completed on 1978-12-23. On 1979-02-06, the Supreme Court issued its verdict, "Guilty", a decision reached by a bare 4-to-3 majority. The Bhutto family had 7 days in which to appeal. The court granted a stay of execution while it studied the petition. By 1979-02-24 when the next court hearing began, appeals for clemency arrived from many heads of state. Zia said that the appeals amounted to "trade union activity" among politicians.
- Before his Appeal Zia sent him a messenger to Bhutton in jail and said if he(Bhutto) asks for forgivness from Zia then he'll let him go. In return Bhutto asked the person "Do you know my father's name" and the person said ofcourse, Shah Nawaz Bhutto, he then asked "Do you know Zia's Father name" to which he replied No, Bhutto then said, "My Father was/is a Legend, and what about his father, why should i ask for forgivness, specially from a person who doesn't even have a father. no one knows his Father's Name".
- On 1979-03-24 the Supreme Court dismissed the appeal. Zia upheld the death sentence. On 1979-04-04, Bhutto was hanged.
- (Above is from Wikipedia Article)
- There are many stories for Z. Bhutto and his Wife Nazarat Bhutto and Daughter Benzir Bhutto. Also There is a story for meeting of Z. Bhutto and Smt. Indira Gandhi, where Bhutto want to release POW. There is one story that Nazarat Bhutto helped to hang Z. Bhutto.
Such storied are comletely rubbish, fabrications of the minorities that opposed his rule.
Bhutto willingly gave his life for democracy and wouldn't settle for any agreement with Zia. Zia would have been happy to send Bhutto into exile as it would reduce his populus support but when he refused had no choice but to kill him, hoping that if he killed the leader his cause would die but it didn't.
Who is putting all this nonsense about Z.A. Bhutto? I am going to say it once, most of the stuff is historically incorrect, and biased, which has nothing to do with truth. Z.A. Bhutto was the best thing that happened to Pakistan in particular and Muslims in general after M.A. Jinnah, the founding Father of Pakistan. And I want to tell those jokers who are trying to spread filth on these pages about Z.A.Bhutto that no matter how staunch supporter you are of Zia-ul-Batil (he was not Huq at all for God sake!) and his political ideas, and of mullaism, you would not be able to eclipse Z.A. Bhutto's achievements! And finally Z.A. Bhutto was the one whose efforts put Pakistan on the map after May 1998 events.