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Era

Current article uses mixed eras. Although I think the CE/BCE system would be the NPOV way to go, it does not look like that was the system introduced in the beginning of the article. Can someone clean up the dates in the article to the other system, or is there enough consensus to switch to BCE/CE? — al-Shimoni (talk) 07:38, 2 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]

In the past discussion there seemed to be a pretty strong consensus for BCE/CE. Huon (talk) 08:33, 2 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, it appears there was consensus for BCE/CE in that discussion. I would also support the change, since the strong ties to Judaism and Judaic history are non–arbitrary reasons specific to the article content. I haven't looked through all the article history, but if, as Imeriki al-Shimoni says, BCE/CE was the initial era version used, it appears it shouldn't have been changed away from that era style. Mojoworker (talk) 18:35, 2 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]
I see no strong reason to change them. As for the earliest version of the article, this first version from 2005 uses BC. --Guerillero | My Talk 18:51, 2 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Given a reasonable consensus, I too would support the use of BCE/CE. The discussions here and previously seem to fully satisfy the current dictum at WP:ERA to make changes only with prior discussion and consensus, and based on content rather than personal preference—and to use one notation consistently within the same article. What was used in the earliest version has been removed from the policy and no longer governs. Hertz1888 (talk) 19:02, 2 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]
We achieved consensus on BCE during the last time this was discussed; it just wasn't implemented because the article was in the midst of some big lets-not-make-the-fixes-in-the-midst-of-discussion discussion. --Nat Gertler (talk) 19:42, 2 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]
 Done. Article updated. Hertz1888 (talk) 20:14, 2 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Riaan Booysen deletion

I've reverted this for several reasons. This isn't a reliable source by our criteria - see WP:RS and WP:VERIFY. The author is an electronic engineer,[1] the publisher specialises in "titles on general spirituality ",[2] not biblical studies, archaeology, etc. It also is not a significant view unless you can show that it is discussed in some depth in reliable sources. Finally, we don't say 'confirmed', 'provides proof'. etc. in Wikipedia's voice. Dougweller (talk) 06:49, 3 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Drastically revise Historicity section?

Can we get rid of the current Historicity section and replace it with a discussion of genre instead? This would let us discuss just what the exodus story meant for the people who first wrote and read it. It's only a modern evangelical Christian reading that needs to see it as history (because for evangelicals the truth of Jesus and the Resurrection depends on the truth of the rest of the bible - if you can't trust Exodus, you can't trust the gospels). For modern Jews, let alone ancient ones, Exodus is about cultural identity, not history. Can we try this? PiCo (talk) 10:24, 3 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Nope. That would violate WP:NPOV and we'd probably end up with more edit wars. People write books on the subject, we can't just ignore it. Dougweller (talk) 14:14, 3 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]
I agree, not covering an aspect of a topic just because it is controversial doesn't seem like a legitimate option. We can certainly add a genre section in addition to the historicity section though. --Cerebellum (talk) 15:10, 3 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Claiming that Jews don't see the exodus as history is a very odd statement. It was the defining historical event of Jewish identify. It also isn't just evangelical Christians who see the exodus as an historical event. It is true that evangelical Christians are more likely to see things as historical events that other, like Catholics aren't (such as the creation narrative) but the exodus is not one of them. Likewise, not many historians doubt that the exodus, or something like it, happened. You are basing your claim on a very narrow band of liberal and minimalist biblical scholars. The claim that the exodus didn't happen is a minority viewpoint. The claim that only evangelicals view it as historical is outright wrong.Quarkgluonsoup (talk) 17:19, 3 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]

New subsection to make it easier to follow

User:Til Eulenspiegel decided to remove from this discussion a comment which states there is no evidence for the Exodus in Egyptian inscriptions and none from archeology. He insists that the claim is soapboxing. I invite him to list here all such evidence about the Exodus. I do not claim right now there is a consensus about this issue, but I want to see the evidence for the Exodus. Tgeorgescu (talk) 17:56, 26 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Til Eulenspiegel /talk/ 18:37, 26 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]

What you need to realize is that this is not a page where we debate evidence or reach a decision on whether or not the Exodus happened. It also should not be a page where editors seek to get either one or the other view "disqualified"; to most of us such tactics are reprehensible. The ONLY legitimate purpose of this page is to discuss potential improvements to the article, not the topic itself. Til Eulenspiegel /talk/ 18:48, 26 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Let's discuss the improvement of the article: sources which do not rely on evidence are unscientific and therefore they should be banned from the historicity section. This is a direct consequence of WP:HISTRS. It may be great theology to claim that the Exodus did happen, but I am inclined to think that it just isn't history and theological opinion should not be conflated with scientific (i.e. historical) fact. Therefore theological opinion is not scientific fact and the article should not present it as fact, but as mere opinion, in contrast with historical research which talks about facts. The historicity section has to render what can be taught in a respectable graduate school of history, i.e. at a university without religious commitments such as requiring professors to take an oath that the Bible is infallible or any other religious bias which places theology above evidence. This leaves out fundamentalist authors and Christian conservatives. Therefore a discussion of what evidence is taken into account by the sources is useful for judging the reliability of the sources and this in turn helps us improve the article. Any scientist which makes factual claims without relying on evidence disqualifies himself/herself and therefore this has nothing to do with "reprehensible tactics" but with basic scientific integrity. Sources which lack scientific integrity are not reliable and therefore they cannot be taken into account when discussing the historicity of the Exodus. This helps us draw the line on what can be mentioned in this section of the article. Tgeorgescu (talk) 22:52, 26 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Once again, accounts claiming to be historical, like this one, are difficult to prove or disprove by means of the scientific method. You can only get as far as the hypothesis stage, that's about it. That's why there are so many conflicting hypotheses, and we will give room to all the notable ones. Your constant claims of some kind of priority or bias for one hypothesis over another are really tiresome. Science has really very little to offer one way or the other on a theological topic. The voice of theologians does not have to be silenced and banned from articles involving theology solely on account of your prejudices. There are Jewish views, Catholic views, Protestant views, Orthodox views, even Muslim views, and they are all just as relevant as skeptical views to any Bible article. Til Eulenspiegel /talk/ 23:10, 26 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]
not in terms of Historicity, no. There is a place in this article for all those religious views, but historicity is where we deal with facts and how facts separate from legend; the arguments of those who do not specialize in the facts but specialize in the legend. If someone is not capable of being skeptical of the legend, they are not questing to anser the questions of historicity. -Nat Gertler (talk) 23:38, 26 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Til, I don't think anyone wants to remove from the article any treatment of the exodus as theology - in fact that's exactly where I've been trying to focus it, away from the simple question of "did it really happen" and towards "what does the story mean?" And the answer is that it means different things to Jews and Christians: for Jews it's the origin of their identity as a people, and still central to their religious life today; for evangelicals it's more a narrative that simply has to be true as history, because the focus of their faith is the resurrection, and the only guarantee of that promise is that the bible is true as history. PiCo (talk) 00:09, 27 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Dubious and too few opinions

Til has conceded above that the historicity of Exodus is difficult/impossible to prove, due to lack of evidence. Any event which cannot be proven to be historical is by definition unhistorical. The lack of evidence is not evidence that it did not happen, but it suffices to call it unhistorical, i.e. unproven. There are lots of events which really happened but are unhistorical due to lack of evidence that they ever happened. An event becomes historical, i.e. historically attested, if there is historical proof for it. Otherwise, it is unhistorical. E.g. in physics they talk about strings (as in string theory), but till now there is no evidence that strings would exist. That's why string theory belongs to applied mathematics and it does not belong to physics. Physics needs some sort of evidence in order to affirm that strings do exist. Therefore he already agreed that the sources which say that the Exodus is unhistorical are academically vanilla. It results that the sources which say that the Exodus would be historical are WP:FRINGE/PS and therefore the tags dubious and too few opinions are spurious, judging by what he has affirmed himself in the talk page. Tgeorgescu (talk) 17:52, 21 June 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Coming back to the above, showing that an event is unhistorical does not require evidence, it just requires lack of historical evidence. By default, all events are unhistorical, unless it is proven that they really happened. Tgeorgescu (talk) 18:45, 21 June 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Original research

Our text: "Thus it seems probable that the 603,550 people delivered from Egypt (according to Numbers 1:46) is not simply a number, but a gematria..." The source: "Some writers see...". The source does not see this theory as probable but merely as a theory proposed by some. Zerotalk 10:44, 3 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Quite right (tho that doesn't make OR, just incorrect use of a source). For comething as obvious as that you should feel free to make an edit yourself, without coming to Talk. (From "this is seems probable..." to "Some writers (or whatever the word is in the source) see..." I notice that the source's own source is Encyclopedia Judaica, so it looks pretty solid as scholarship). PiCo (talk) 12:15, 3 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Historic Proof of The Biblical Egyptian Exodus

Meshnaic related articles, need Editorial Oversite. Mishnaic Hebrew is not as old as Wikipedia authors, using corrupted author sources, are citing. http://www.britannica.com/EBchecked/topic/259061/Hebrew-language#ref267076
Quote: "Mishnaic, or Rabbinic, Hebrew, the language of the Mishna (a collection of Jewish traditions), written about AD 200 (this form of Hebrew was never used among the people as a spoken language);"
Quoting Britannica, "Few traces of dialects exist in Biblical Hebrew, but scholars believe this to be the result of Masoretic editing of the text. In addition to the Old Testament, a small number of inscriptions in Hebrew of the biblical period are extant; the earliest of these is a short inscription in Phoenician characters dating from the 9th century BC.
During the early Mishnaic period, some of the guttural consonants of Biblical Hebrew were combined or confused with one another, and many nouns were borrowed from Aramaic. Hebrew also borrowed a number of Greek, Latin, and Persian words."
^ Encyclopedia Britannica repeats, people since inventing the Masoretic Text (900-1100AD) have been purposely destroying traces of which language produced the Hebrew Language. I have repeatedly confirmed by finding the original source, that Aramaic is phonetic or script of the Source Language being falsely called Hebrew. Even Hebrew University confirm Biblical Hebrew Script IS Liturgical Aramaic http://cal1.cn.huc.edu/aramaic_language.html
The Biblical Torah began with King Ahmoses in Egypt, ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ahmose_I ) When Minoan Crete Volcano Erupted between 1650-1550BCE, but someone is claiming Ah-Moses only reigned for five years 1555-1550BCE??? Facts are Aramaic is the only Language that covers the span between Book of Genesis Chapter 19 with Abraham seeing a Volcano, and then Ah-Moses Where the Upper & Lower Kingdom became one so they could move away, "Exodus" from Lower Egypt(Nile Delta) to what people call Middle Egypt or Memphis, escaping the Clouds of Ash which Rained with Fire from the Volcano about 1650-1550BCE. Aramaic is the language of God. A "Hebrew Language" did not Exist, it was like Ge'ez priestly Aramaic so commoners could not read it. 4WhatMakesSense (talk) 22:32, 10 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]
* Here is a University confirming Biblical Hebrew is Liturgical Aramaic. http://cal1.cn.huc.edu/ 1300BCE Aramaic.

— Preceding unsigned comment added by 4WhatMakesSense (talk • contribs) 22:33, 10 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

This statement is WP:FRINGE/PS and the editor has been indeffed for pushing such viewpoint. Tgeorgescu (talk) 17:39, 21 June 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Article pushing a point of view, is flagrantly hostile to wisedpread and significant points of view

Let this serve as notice that a POV-pushing ssue has been identified with the wording of this article. There are few issues that are more contentious than this one, yet the article is firmly in somebody's fantasy land where a "consensus" exists, and wouldn;t you know it, the "consensus" happens to be that that person's POV is the only correct one (yawn). The tag should stay until neutrality is restored. Til Eulenspiegel /talk/ 20:01, 21 June 2013 (UTC)[reply]

As shown above, you have agreed that the mainstream scientific view is that the Exodus is unhistorical. Have you changed your mind? The mainstream scientific view has to be rendered according to WP:RNPOV. According to what you have stated in the talk page, the tags are unwarranted. As somebody told you earlier, you have the right to disagree with the NPOV policy, but you have no right to try to mess with it article by article. Tgeorgescu (talk) 20:08, 21 June 2013 (UTC)[reply]
I am most certainly doing no such thing and I would advise you to rescind that unjustified reproach. I'm getting a little tired of your go-for-the-jugular tactics to ensure articles pushing your persona POV on everything. Til Eulenspiegel /talk/ 20:10, 21 June 2013 (UTC)[reply]

The fact is that we are all minimalists — at least, when it comes to the patriarchal period and the settlement. When I began my PhD studies more than three decades ago in the USA, the 'substantial historicity' of the patriarchs was widely accepted as was the unified conquest of the land. These days it is quite difficult to find anyone who takes this view.

In fact, until recently I could find no 'maximalist' history of Israel since Wellhausen. ... In fact, though, 'maximalist' has been widely defined as someone who accepts the the biblical text unless it can be proven wrong. If so, very few are willing to operate like this, not even John Bright (1980) whose history is not a maximalist one according to the definition just given.

— Lester L. Grabbe, "Some Recent Issues in the Study of the History of Israel" Proceedings of the British Academy, 143, 57-67, 2007.

Once again, accounts claiming to be historical, like this one, are difficult to prove or disprove by means of the scientific method. You can only get as far as the hypothesis stage, that's about it.

— Til Eulenspiegel
Well, when even the reality of such event cannot get beyond hypothesis stage, it is unhistorical by default. One does not need to disprove the historicity of the Exodus, it is unhistorical until proven historical, which you have conceded that it cannot get beyond hypothesis stage. The mistake was to assume that there would be a symmetry between historical and unhistorical, i.e. that if there is no evidence, neither could be asserted. History works by asserting unhistorical character by default, it is historicity which demands proof. If historicity is proven, the event ceases to be unhistorical. So the burden of proof is upon those who assert that the Exodus would be historical, in lack of such proof the other side wins by default. It's a matter of elementary logic, no need to see it as a personal attack. I just discussed what you have asserted, not your person. Remember that we are speaking of science, i.e. of facts, evidence, falsifiability, scientific consensus and so on. Theology requires none of these, it is able to construct true belief out of thin air. Theology does not establish facts, it establishes what a certain church should believe. Tgeorgescu (talk) 20:41, 21 June 2013 (UTC)[reply]
"Well, when even the reality of such event cannot get beyond hypothesis stage, it is unhistorical by default." This is just more of your "logic by fiat", not a rational statement. Til Eulenspiegel /talk/ 01:08, 22 June 2013 (UTC)[reply]
If there's no historical evidence for it, it just ain't history. Dominus Vobisdu (talk) 01:30, 22 June 2013 (UTC)[reply]
The bottom line is, yes, there are multiple significant points of view on this, no, the matter has not been conclusively settled, it is pure disingenuous to pretend that now suddenly the matter has been conclusively settled, and now suddenly after thousands of years there is only one valid or permissible point of view left. The fact that some editors consider one or more very widespread points of view automatically invalid without any conclusive proof, is only a measure of the bias and intolerance of these editors. Til Eulenspiegel /talk/ 02:08, 22 June 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Provide RELIABLE SECONDARY sources that such points of view are significant. And stop with the personal attacks. The burden is on YOU, so get to work and find sources if you want to be taken seriously. And no fringe sources or reliagious apologetics, of course. Peer-reviewed academic journals or books from academic presses only, per WP:HISTRS. Dominus Vobisdu (talk) 02:13, 22 June 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Several Christian Churches and other religions teach that this is historical. These account for hundreds of millions of adherents. You will never see them as significant because you have an anti-religious bias. You see wikipedia's role as being there to join you in your attack on religions, not to impartially tell all sides of the story. I've seen this a million times before; you will eventually lose because of the fact that you are arguing vehemently for only one side of the story to be told, and I am arguing just as vehemently that NPOV is a worthless sham if it only allows one POV to be presented and if it does not allow all POVs to be given impartially. Til Eulenspiegel /talk/ 03:02, 22 June 2013 (UTC)[reply]
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