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British Isles

Copied from Ben Bell Talk. Please don't make ad hominem attacks on editors like you have done here. Please comment on the edit, not on the editor. You will note I've given a reason for my edits and in some cases I suggest that they are taken to Talk. Please can I ask you to take these issues to the relevant Talk page in each case. As you know, British Isles and its use is controversial in Wikipedia (though not in many oother places), so again I ask you to discuss changes that might result in its removal, before going ahead. Thanks. 86.27.230.177 (talk) 21:28, 27 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Please point out my alleged ad hominen attack. You have merely blindly reverted my most recent edits, without offering reasons or discussions. While anon IP's are allowed, I do not find discussions with editors using anon IP addresses to be productive. Please do not post here again on this topic. --Bardcom (talk) 21:36, 27 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

The ad hominem attack was at Ben Bell's talk page. You must discuss these issues. As Wikipedia policy currently stands, IPs have as much right as named users to interact with the community. Please play your part in that interaction. 86.27.230.177 (talk) 21:40, 27 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

No attack took place on Ben's talk page. Changes will be discussed on the relevant article Talk page. Please do not post on my talk page on this issue again. --Bardcom (talk) 21:46, 27 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

don't patronise editors like here, and try to avoid all too blatant WP:WL in an attempt to dodge complaints. It doesn't make you look good. Remember that everyone's editing history is completely in the open. It is a bad idea to take other editors for morons. If you find yourself in a conflict, you will do well to recognize the other party in good faith and try finding a compromise solution rather than trying to smear the other side. It usually doesn't work and just reflects badly on yourself. --dab (𒁳) 08:30, 28 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Dab, I'm puzzled as to why you labelled this entry as "friendly advice", and then proceeded to accuse me of patronising editors, blatent wiki-lawyering, taking other editors for morons, and smearing the other side. You appear to be reacting to the warning I left on user talk:Dougweller. As background, Doug left this comment on an anon IP's talk page, where he suggested that I was "removing every mention of "British Isles". He than left a comment on the Ring of Brodgar page where he again stated "Bardcom is trying to remove the term 'British Isles' from Wikipedia". Immediately afterwards, the anon IP editor proceeded to revert most of my evening's work without presenting a discussion, alternative research, etc, and was eventually blocked for 3RR. I can't help but see a connection between the anon IP's actions and Doug's comment/encouragement.

This behaviour is a sneaky and underhanded way for editors to smear my reputation and behaviour, while avoiding the need to examine and comment on my edits. It is not wiki-lawyering to defend against ad hominen attacks, and I'm very surprised that you chose to wag your finger at me and make your accusations rather than at the anon IP editor or at Doug.

The warning was posted to Doug's page for twice referring to my editing as attempting to remove the term "British Isles" from wikipedia. The paradoxical standards shown where he blackens my name with one comment "Bardcom is trying to remove the term 'British Isles' from Wikipedia", followed in the next breath by a half-hearted acknowledgement that "In some circumstances remvoval of the term is justified, but not in all circumstances. It seems appropriate here", is the reason I warned him about ad hominen attacks on his Talk page. In this case, on reflection, I now believe that Doug feels he was acting in good faith and doesn't realise that I object strongly to any insinuation that I am systematically removing the term "British Isles" from wikipedia, and I've withdrawn the warning and apologised.

But here's a question for you. What advice would you give me to deal with this type of situation?

And another. Do you still stand by your original comment? --Bardcom (talk) 10:29, 28 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Block clarification

Can you clarify your block of User:81.5.133.89? He doesn't seem to have been warned at all, and disagreeing with you regarding the use of the phrase 'British Islands' doesn't appear to be simple vandalism. Is there something else going on that would clarify the situation? At a quick look, it might appear to someone not familiar with your edits that you have blocked an editor with no warning or notice because he was involved in an editing dispute with you. -FisherQueen (talk · contribs) 17:39, 1 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I reported the anon IP editor because the editor simply reverted all of my edits for that day. No discussion or attempt at discussion. I saw my choices as either reverting all that editors reverts (and thereby pretty much starting an edit war), or to let an admin make the decision. In light of the fact that the anon IP editor didn't make any attempt to discuss any of the reverts, I can only guess that the admin was satisfied that the anon IP editor was acting improperly as a vandal. I am always happy to discuss the reasons for my edits. It's no secret that there are a lot of objectors to my edits, and there is a merry (and I have to say, we're nearly friendly at this stage) band of regular editors that keep me on my toes and make sure that my editting is justified (or at least, there's an argument or a basis for the edits). There was an RfC process initiated last month, but on inspection, all but two of my edits were held up (and the two that were not had been settled as inaccurate even before the RfC process, so it was very mischevious to include them...still....).

Since then, many of my edits have been examined/scrutunised - and nearly all have been upheld as good edits. Many of the more vociferous detractors (around the time of the RfC) have since acknowledged that I am acting in good faith, am always happy to discuss the edits, and never ever get personal - comment on the edits, not the editor.

But there's a recent trend of anon IP editors who revert my edits with comments like "Reverting edit of editor who is trying to systematically remove British Isles from Wikipedia", or comments very similar. They have not engaged in any discussion, and simply stick to an argument like "You just hate the British Isles". There's been a number of edit wars, and I was advised to not edit war, and to simply report the IP address. Even looking at this anon IP users Talk page, the reason for the unblock is pretty much that reason. I was asked recently to take a break from editting wikipedia on this topic for a week, while a discussion could take place. I willingly agreed - but it seems that it wasn't discussed, or the admin forgot or whatever.

I also see from the anon IP Talk page that the editor probably has a "real" username. Why is the user not willing to discuss the edits, not willing to assume good faith? Why is the user not reading the RfC? It's difficult to assume good faith for an editor that wants to hide behind an anon IP address.

I've rattled on a good bit. In summary, I don't believe we've seen the end of anon IP addresses (this is the 3rd or 4th I believe) reverting my edits. But to capitulate would be to accept the bullying. I'd rather be constructive, and to edit articles to be more accurate.

I'm interested in your feedback. You can send in privately if you prefer. I'm also interested in any advice you may have. And thank you for upholding the block on the editor. --Bardcom (talk) 21:25, 1 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for the clarification. I'm not about to contest the decision; it may have been a bit out of process, but it seems clear that whoever it is, they were targeting your edits, and not editing in good faith. Several other admins have reviewed its unblock requests and declined, too. I wonder who it is really? But I don't wonder very much. Not nearly as much as I wonder things like "Is my President drinking again?" and "Will the Democrats win the next election, or am I really going to have to emigrate to Canada, where it's cold and I'll have to learn French?" -FisherQueen (talk · contribs) 22:24, 1 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Bluegrass

Hi Bardcom. In the light of your reversion to the British article I've just been looking at your work (sorry for the nosiness!). I can't help noticing that you've removed references to British Isles. This is also shown on your Talk page. The bluegrass one is surely not appropriate. The immigrants mentioned would undoubtedly have come from all areas of the British Isles, even though the music in question did not originate until the 1940s. Therefore in mentioning the immigrants it makes sense to use British Isles. I can't think of a better term because it is the geography of the situation that is of interest in this case. I think your edit should be reverted. Silas Stoat (talk) 22:08, 4 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Hi Silas, thanks for coming here to discuss, and I don't regard looking at my work as nosiness :-). The context of this section of the article in question refers to immigrants. The US does not categorize immigrants according to a geographical location (but by country - check out the US census website), and also the paragraph in question lists Irish, Scottish and English. In this context, mixing a geographical term like British Isles in a geo-political context is not appropriate, and for this reason I changed the text. --Bardcom (talk) 22:13, 4 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Hi again Bardcom. Sorry, but I can't agree with what you say. There are no political issues at all in regard to this. Of (marginal) interest is where the people came from, not how the US categorises immigrants. In fact, if you look at some census documents (say the 1880 census as a good example), you'll note that immigrants are categorised according to geographic locations. In 1880 Ireland was not a State and use of the word would be wholly geographic at that time. This is perhaps the period we are talking about and this is how the immigrants were described on the census returns. So really it is down to geography, and as such the wholly geographic terminology of British Isles is appropriate. If you want to continue this discussion maybe we could move this whole section to the article talk page? Thanks. Silas Stoat (talk) 22:27, 4 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Sure, no problem is you wish to move it to the article Talk page. But I disagree with your assertion that this is a geographical issue - it is actually an ethnic origin issue. The article talks about the ethnic origins of immigrants, and the term "British Isles" is inappropriate in this context, but rather their country of birth. Also, have you a link for what you mean regarding the 1880 census - the reference on the official database states: "name of state, territory, or country of birth". Finally, in 1880, Ireland may not have been an "independant" state, but it *was* a country and was identified as such. --Bardcom (talk) 22:56, 4 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Anglosphere

Hi. I was wondering what your objection was to my edit. I don't really understand your edit summary:

for ancestral origins, use geo-political terminology, not geographical

I wrote

Countries with substantial populations having their ancestral origins in the British Isles

What is your objection specifically? Joeldl (talk) 14:57, 5 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Hi, thanks for opening a discussion here. There are a number of reasons for changing your edit, primarily associated with your usage of the term "British Isles". First off, referencable information (e.g. census info from countries such as UK, USA, Australia, Canada) lists ancestral origins according to country (a geo-political area such as United Kingdom, or Scotland), whereas the term British Isles is a purely geographical term (e.g. highest mountain in the British Isles) and not appropriate for articles dealing with culture, ethnicity, etc. --Bardcom (talk) 15:06, 5 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

If that is your only objection, it would have been enough to change "British Isles" to Britain and Ireland instead of reverting me.

Perhaps, but I felt that your edits substantially changed the point being made, and I wasn't sure how to restate your point in a satisfactory manner. In the circumstances, since the term British Isles is incorrect in this context, I simple reverted. It's not a big deal is it? You only changed a couple of sentences... --Bardcom (talk) 15:28, 5 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I felt that the previous characterization was 1. incorrect, as it pertained to South Africa; 2. using a very roundabout way of stating what it was really getting at. Joeldl (talk) 15:48, 5 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

However, I also disagree with the objection. "British Isles" is used as a normal designation in official settings outside Ireland/Britain, for example by the government department that oversees the census in Canada. They write The "British Isles only" multiple category includes respondents who reported more than one of the following origins: English, Irish, Scottish, Welsh and British, n.i.e. [1]

Canada no longer uses this grouping as it is considered controversial and objectionable, and were incorrectly referring to a geographical location (British Isles) as a political grouping (geo-political term). Your reference to the 1996 census is out of date - check the later 2001 census for example [2]. --Bardcom (talk) 15:28, 5 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I don't know where you're getting your information, either about a change in terminology or the reasons for one. For the 2001 Census, they write [3]:

Ethnic origin data are divided in approximately 206 ethnic groups and 25 ethnic categories and subcategories for the 2001 Census. An ethnic category is a subtotal or aggregation of selected ethnic groups. For example, the Aboriginal origins ethnic category is the sum of the North American Indian, Métis and Inuit ethnic groups.

In some cases, ethnic categories include ethnic subcategories as well as ethnic groups. An ethnic subcategory is also a subtotal or aggregation of selected ethnic groups, but one that fits into a broader ethnic category. An example of an ethnic subcategory in the Eastern European ethnic category is Baltic origins, which includes the Estonian, Latvian and Lithuanian ethnic groups.

In 2001, the 25 ethnic categories and subcategories used to classify individual ethnic origins are:

1. British Isles origins

2. French origins

3. Aboriginal origins

4. North American origins

5. Caribbean origins

etc.

Very interesting - I had read that the term was no longer used as a reporting grouping - I'll try to dig up the reference. Thanks for this. But it also goes on to state Only one table (Canadian Overview Table) from the 2001 Census includes these ethnic categories. For all other standard tables, only the individual ethnic origins are shown. That would appear to indicate that it is not the primary method of reporting ethnicity. --Bardcom (talk) 16:13, 5 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

This is considered a convenient grouping because there are many cultural reasons in the Canadian, U.S., Australian contexts, etc., to view them as similar. Most important perhaps was the use of English (for the majority of them, and knowledge of it for most of the rest) prior to immigration. Joeldl (talk) 15:19, 5 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Your assertion that Australia uses the term is also incorrect - please provide a reference. USA and Austrlia report according to country (i.e. Use Scotland, England, Northern Ireland, Ireland, etc). --Bardcom (talk) 15:28, 5 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Sorry, I didn't mean to imply that Autralian authorities use the term. I have no information about that one way or the other. But nonetheless, in all of these countries, there are natural reasons to consider people of English, Welsh, Scottish and Irish origin together. I don't see a better way to say that than with "British Isles".

The main reason is that there is an "agreement" between anti- and pro- "British Isles" editors that the term is a geographical term, and should only be used in this context. If you are referring to nationalities, you need to use a geo-political term instead. --Bardcom (talk) 16:12, 5 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

On a side note, I thought I was doing the right thing by not forgetting Ireland, which is what many people probably would have done! Joeldl (talk) 15:48, 5 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

It's a very contentious term when used to include the Irish - check out the Talk:British Isles pages for the raging discussion currently taking place. If anything, it is better to not use the term if you intend to also refer to the Irish.... --Bardcom (talk) 16:12, 5 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I would add that the immigration took place over a long period of time during whih political boundaries changed. Only the geography was constant over the entire period. Joeldl (talk) 15:52, 5 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Again, there's another page British Isles (terminology) that lists how to deal with the areas for different periods of time, etc. Also other related articles. I don't know how aware you were of the controversy, but it's a term that people avoid putting into articles, unless for a geographic purpose (my example of highest mountain, etc). --Bardcom (talk) 16:12, 5 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I did not know that this was controversial. I do not believe many people outside the UK and Ireland are aware that they are offending anyone when they say "British Isles". I feel that in this case "geographical" terms are more appropriate than "geo-political" ones, because boundaries have changed over time. Certainly what you are advocating goes against usage in North America. Joeldl (talk) 16:24, 5 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Please join the discussion in Talk:British Isles, read the article, and add your views and arguments. This row has been going on for a long time, and while you might say that it goes against usage in North America, you'll find a ton of people from North America taking part in the discussions with a different view. Regardless, the term British Isles is a geographical term, and since the article is discussing ethnicity and ethnic origins, it is more appropriate to use geo-political terms. You'll find that articles dealing with immigration into USA, Australia, etc, all tend to use geo-political terms correctly. --Bardcom (talk) 16:34, 5 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Frankly, I am doubtful of the argument you make about geographical terms. Surely the Irish people, seen as an ethnic group, are related to their (physical) territory of origin - a geographical notion - more than to the "Republic of Ireland" or to the "United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland" (as it then was), the corresponding (and changing) geopolitical notions.

In the U.S., one speaks of "African Americans", despite the fact that Africa is a landmass and has never been a geopolitical entity. "Asian American" is also quite common. What geopolitical terms would you suggest in these cases? Joeldl (talk) 07:14, 6 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Be aware that I'm representing the general consensus formed regarding the use of the term "British Isles" - it's not *my* argument - and if you have any doubts, you can read the discussion on the Talk:British Isles pages where it's very clearly stated and agreed that the term is solely geographical.

Using the term "British Isles" in a geo-political context is confusing to most people. A lot of the time, the term British Isles is used when the intention is only to refer to British people (like this article). For example, in this article the lead uses the term "United Kingdom", but your edits used the term "British Isles" - implying that the terms are interchangeable, and have the same meaning. Your edit would be correct if the term Anglosphere also derives from Irish politics, culture and history, but my understanding is that the definition of Anglosphere has never previously been expressed in relation to Irish politics, culture and history - so even as a geographical term in this article, it's incorrect. And the current edit using the term "Great Britain and Ireland" is probably incorrect, and should only state "United Kingdom" or "Great Britain".

I agree that ethnic groups are often related to their physical territory of origin, but they identify with (and are organized according to) a national region. These are the same thing in most cases, but not all, and Irish people are a case in point. All Irish people identify with Ireland (the island), and some identify with Ireland (the state). People from Northern Ireland can chose, so some even identify with being British and Irish simultaneously. But many Irish people object to the term "British Isles" in all contexts, and the consensus reached on Wikipedia is that the term "British Isles" is recognized as a geographical term, and is therefore valid when used in a geographical context.

So in summary, perhaps the question that you are asking, is "What is meant by a geographical context?". A geographical context is one that deals with large regions and features of the region. Largest desert, highest mountain, oceanic streams, climate, etc. While a geo-political context deals with people in some shape or form, and it is to be avoided in these articles.

Finally, I don't think it's a valid analogy to compare with the terms "African American" and "Asian American". These terms compare better with "European American", as groupings on a continental basis are rarely contentious. (Although funnily perhaps some British people might object) In fact, the term Europe is also now being used as both a geo-political term (as a shortcut for "The Euro Zone", or "The European Union", etc) and as a geographic term, so one has got to be careful using this term too, as some countries in the Eurozone are not in Europe, and not all countries in Europe use the Euro, etc. But the term isn't contentious, whereas the term "British Isles" is. Please excuse the long reply - I didn't have time to write a short one. --Bardcom (talk) 15:43, 6 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

The analogy is permissible. "British Isles" is simply a geographical term designating a smaller area than a continent. Grouping English, Scottish, Welsh and Irish together as ethnic origins, from the point of view of the U.S., Canada, etc. is eminently reasonable. Also, you will note that Ireland is coloured on the map, as it should be, because it is thought of as being an important part of the cultural sphere shared with the U.S., English-speaking Canada and the U.K.. Don't you think Irish people would object to it being said many of them are of "British ancestral origin"? Joeldl (talk) 01:14, 7 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

We're in danger of agreeing at this stage. At no point should you think that the term is "wrong" as such - there is a term called "British Isles" that covers that geographical area. But the term "British Isles" is objected to by many Irish people (read the lead paragraph on the British Isles. Actually, read it every week cos it changes depending on the "current" argument :-) and that is why it *should* *not* be used for geo-political articles (as I've explained above, etc)

And grouping English/Scottish/Welsh/Irish together as a cultural unit is very definitely not acceptable and is guaranteed to lead to objections. As to my thoughts on whether Irish people would object to "British ancestral origin" .. surely you jest? They would be very annoyed if this was suggested. For example, a unified rugby team from all these nations used be called the "British Lions" - they're now called the "British and Irish Lions". --Bardcom (talk) 09:46, 7 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Well, I don't see why the caption for the map, which had Ireland coloured, needed to be changed to "British ancestral origin". I still disagree with you about the appropriateness of the use of a geographical term in this context. I've started a new section on the page Talk:Anglosphere, where you're welcome to defend your point of view. Joeldl (talk) 09:51, 7 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Arabidopsis distribution citation?

Hi! I was wondering if you could add the reference for the Arabidopsis thaliana distributions you added. I think I'll make a distribution map to go with the article (like the one I made for Acacia drepanolobium), but I'd rather have the source cited before doing it... thanks! -- Madeleine ✉ ✍ 19:07, 7 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Sure - Flora Europaea is a great place for the distribution of most botanic species and it lists each distribution region separately. But the reference I quoted was already cited from the USDA and I liked it a little better. --Bardcom (talk) 21:17, 7 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Aus dem

I have replied on my user page. Michael ^talk 22:47, 7 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Leopardstown Racecourse

Do you have any sources for the edit to Leopardstown Racecourse? ww2censor (talk) 02:46, 8 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Sure, most of it was condensed from the racecourse home page here and here. --Bardcom (talk) 09:02, 8 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

That's great but those references are here on your talk page and not where they should be; on the article page. Perhaps you would add them there as appropriate. Thanks ww2censor (talk) 13:27, 8 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Actually the racecourse home page is already referenced on the article page. Why the snippy remark - did I offend you somewhere along the line? --Bardcom (talk) 13:34, 8 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Sorry if I seemed snippy. Indeed there is an external link to the racecourse already but that is not a reference to the data that you added, it is an external link. Inline citations are something that is requested these days and a simple external link does not qualify because anyone checking has to search around for the actual information. On the other hand an inline citation will bring you directly to the information, but I am sure you already knew that. Cheers ww2censor (talk) 13:41, 8 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Done. --Bardcom (talk) 13:48, 8 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

AIV report

If the editor in question is Wikistalking you across multiple editors then try reporting it at WP:ANI. It still is not a case of simple vandalism, which is why the AIV board is not really the right place for it (I'm fairly certain you will not get any help there, sorry). The editor you are dealing with has a fairly long block log but also has been at Wikipedia for a long time, and that combined with the fact that the edits in question are not obvious vandalism means that you have a more complicated situation. As I see it ANI or some form of dispute resolution seems the way to go. Best, Bigtimepeace | talk | contribs 10:40, 8 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you. I'll revert his latest reverts and hope he starts discussing his reverts at least. I'll take a look at WP:ANI too, thanks for the advice. --Bardcom (talk) 10:44, 8 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

A question - is there some explanation, somewhere, why British Isles needs to be replaced by "Britain and Ireland"? Is there a policy somewhere that requires this? I don't see one. I think, Bardom, your best bet is WP:RFC, to gain a consensus on which term is the appropriate one to use. Neıl ☎ 10:57, 8 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Hi Neil, the consensus formed on Wikipedia over the use of the term British Isles is that it is a geographical term - of all the things not agreed and fought over on Talk:British Isles, this has been agreed. It is not a political term, or a geo-political term, or a substitute for other terminology, etc. And while some editors argue that it is no longer an acceptable term, even as a geographical term, a consensus has not formed for that, and I do not edit on that basis.

I have examined many articles (What Links Here) that use the term "British Isles", and where the usage is incorrect, I correct the article. For example, if you look at the article Ben Nevis, it states that this peak is the highest in the British Isles. Perfect use of the term. Or if it's a quotation, or if it's referenced, etc. But then if you look at any one of the edits that Tharky reverted - there were 13 - you'll understand why the term was changed. Some examples from Tharky's ffirst number of reverts (so I'm not cherry-picking):

The Charles II of England article incorrectly used the term British Isles to refer to the areas ruled by Cromwell. These are geo-political areas, and therefore the correct terms are the names of the appropriate kingdoms.
The Demographics of Saint Helena site was plain WP:NOR. I've since replaced with text from the official tourist site linked from the official government site
The Demography of the United Kingdom used the term "British Isles" in the context of Roman occupation. This is an example where an editor is confusing a geographical region with a geo-political region. The romans did not invade the British Isles - they never came to Ireland and never invaded Scotland or other parts of the British Isles. Using the term British Isles in this context is lazy, and implies that "British Isles = Great Britain = England = United Kingdom". Some editors suggest it's pedantic, but I disagree - it's highly inaccurate to use the term "British Isles" in this context. The other change in that article is because the references specifically state "Britain", so the editor was again falling foul of the British Isles = Great Britain = England = United Kingdom" way of thinking.

And so on. If there's any edit in particular you want to discuss, I'm more than happy to explain the reasons for my edits. Thank you. --Bardcom (talk) 11:33, 8 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Blog Link

You changed my edit, removing the citation because it is a "blog" link. It's a link to a blog post made by Wired Magazine, a trusted source, and should not qualify for blind removal according to the rules on WP:EL wich state: 11. Links to blogs and personal web pages, except those written by a recognized authority.

I don't know if it is the absolute best place to link to this "press release" style blog post, but it seems to be one of the only permenant sources of the information. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Officialuser (talk • contribs) 00:19, 9 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

The primary reason for not including blogs in external links is because a blog is usually one persons opinion, and often is not a reliable or neutral source. You added the link as an anon IP address, and used marketing-speak terms such as "Next Generation" and "will open the way". In addition, this camera is not available as it is a research model, so any text will be future-looking and possibly inaccurate. --Bardcom (talk) 09:36, 9 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Common Bluebell

Hello Bardcom, I note your comments on the Common Bluebell article, and yes, I see that you are correct in your reference to the Flora Europae. It does indeed categorise plants by very specific geographic areas. Their groupings are perhaps questionable in some cases, but there we have it. I've expanded the particular section slightly, just to clarify the point about Flora Europae. However, I also notice that your edit conveniently managed to remove British Isles from the article. I wonder about your motives here. Are you primarily interested in factually correct articles, or in removing British Isles, or perhaps both? I ask because when looking at your work it often results in the removal of British Isles and there are several references to this on your talk page. I have re-instated the words in the article, but in another area. I belive the usage is now factually correct, given that there are impressive bluebell woods in all (well, most) parts of the British Isles. I hope we can compromise on this usage. Additionally, I have noticed your edit to the Bodleian Library article. Again this resulted in the elimination of British Isles. In this case you are wrong. There are six Legal Deposit Libraries in the British Isles, of which Trinity College, Dublin is one. They are linked by the work of a single agency, so it makes sense to list them under British Isles. Your edit saying there are six legal deposit libraries in the UK is wrong, as was the text further down in the article. I'm going to correct this. I hope we are not in the position of the factual accuracy of articles being compromised by a desire to remove the use of British Isles. CarterBar (talk) 21:01, 10 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Hi Carter, thank you for allowing the corrected text to stand in the Bluebell article, although I disagree with and have removed your insertion of the term "British Isles" as it only serves to introduce a contentious term into an article where it does not belong. In addition, there are Bluebell woods everywhere it is endemic. To understand how contentious the term is, see the Talk:British Isles page, and to understand the various ways to refer to the countries and islands see the article on British Isles terminology article. You can see by my talk page and my contributions that I do indeed examine articles that use the term "British Isles", and where the term is used incorrectly, I change the term to use a correct term. I find many articles, just like the Bluebell article, where the term is incorrectly used. As a simple rule of thumb, the current consensus is that the article is fine when it relates to geography (e.g. Ben Nevis is the highest mountain in the British Isles). I am always happy to discuss the edits. As to the Bodleian Library article, thank you for pointing out Trinity College. As I stated in my edit, I corrected the text based on the use of "United Kingdom" further in the article. Looking at the reference, it states "United Kingdom and Ireland" and this is what the article should state, and not the "British Isles" which isn't a legal entity. Finally, don't think I'm suggesting you have assigned a motive to my edits, but I am acting in good faith - please WP:AGF and do not try to read any anti-British motive into my edits. This is not about "compromising" on usage, it's about using the appropriate terms correctly. --Bardcom (talk) 21:26, 10 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Well, my edit didn't last long! Please read the reference. Here is the relevant part "Legal deposit is the act of depositing published material in designated libraries or archives. Publishers and distributors in the United Kingdom and Ireland have legal obligation to deposit published material in the six legal deposit libraries which collectively maintain the national published archive of the British Isles." The National published archive of the British Isles is the point here. They use it, so there shouldn't be a problem with it. Is there a policy or something that we shouldn't use British Isles? If there is is, then OK, but I doubt it. This usage seems fine. CarterBar (talk) 21:34, 10 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Sorry, but I can't let this one pass! It's OK to gratuitously REMOVE British Isles form articles, but not to add it? What's going on here? CarterBar (talk) 21:40, 10 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

OK, I can't let this pass either. I'm not gratuitously removing the term from articles; I warn you toWP:AGF and no ad hominen attacks. I see from your edit history that you are already familiar with the British Isles debate, so there's no need for me to explain it again here. Finally, if you wish to discuss my edits (only), I'm very happy to do so. Either here, on the appropriate article Talk page. --Bardcom (talk) 21:50, 10 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I'm here partly as a result of the British Isles debate. I made some changes there when I first signed up and you undid them straight away and said any further changes would be regarded as vandalism. I have read the ramblings at British Isles and elsewhere, including here, and I am not at all impressed. I take your point about geography, but reading Ireland article I don't see a reference to the Shannon being the longest river in the British Isles. It's very hard to assume good faith when all I see is the systematic removal of British Isles. I dare say some of your removals are valid but the two under discussion here really aren't CarterBar (talk) 21:57, 10 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

If you wish to add that the Shannon is the longest river in the British Isles in whatever article, I won't correct it. I'm happy to discuss the edits. Your addition to the Bluebell article is not correct. You added that many woods in the British Isles are covered in a carpet of Bluebells in Spring. Leaving aside the fact that you have no references for this, it is also a "parochial" POV as this is also common everwhere the bluebell is endemic. Your alteration to the Bodleian Library was also incorrect for two reasons. The first reason is that the reference provided, uses the term "United Kingdom and Ireland". The second is that since the status of "Legal Deposit Libraries" is governed by law, the correct terms to use are the terms that define the national legal jurisdictions. --Bardcom (talk) 22:24, 10 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Use of British Isles

Hello Bardcom. Let me pick up on another couple of your recent edits - Frodsham. Is there a place called Frodsham in Ireland? I don't know the answer, but I suspect there isn't. If this is so, then the article was correct to state that the place name is unique in the British Isles, so there was no need to change it. Similarly with Cumbrae, is there a smaller cathedral in Ireland? If not, and again I don't know the answer, then the use of British Isles was correct. I can see how controversial the use of British Isles is, and how controversial its removal is. Maybe you could enter something on the talk pages of articles before changing British Isles to something else? I know this would be a bit of pain, but it would at least give interested parties the opportunity to challenge your proposals, and if, after discussion, you managed to carry the day then no one would have grounds to dispute your subsequent edit. As it is, you make a change and it's then difficult for it to be retracted and there are many editors who seem to be unhappy with this. CarterBar (talk) 22:17, 10 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Hi, as to Frodsham, I changed the text because it was unreferenced. Perhaps Frodsham is unique in Europe? Perhaps it is unique in the world. On another note, it is not a particularly notable fact .... can you imagine if every location made claims of it's unique name - I'm pretty sure that Dublin, Glasgow, London, and Cardiff are also unique, no? The article on Cumbrae is also making unreferenced claims, and can therefore be removed immediately. The alternative way to deal with claims like these is to delete the claims entirely, but sometimes after an edit like this, an editor comes forward with a reference. As to your suggestion that changes are discussed in advance, I often do (e.g. see Talk:Lord. But for simpler edits like these, there's rarely any need. --Bardcom (talk) 22:35, 10 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]