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October 22

16th/17th century French book describing medieval Paris

Resolved

I am trying to remember the name of a book, written in the 16th or 17th century, that describes the history and architecture of Paris (or perhaps all of France). The name, however, has escaped me, and I can find neither it nor the authorities that describe it as Hugo's source. Can anyone help me?

Identifying details that I remember:

• The book is considered to be the source of Victor Hugo's detailed description of medieval Paris in The Hunchback of Notre Dame.
• The author has (considering his era) an unusually philo-Semitic description of the history of the Jews in France
• The author was familiar with many historical Jewish works (including Shalshelet ha-Qabbalah and Zemah David), apparently from their Hebrew originals
• The book has been digitized and is (or was) freely available online on a French website

הסרפד (call me Hasirpad) 01:40, 22 October 2013 (UTC)

Maybe Histoires et recherches des Antiquités de la Ville de Paris by Henri Sauval? He is actually mentioned in the text, and seems to have a lot to say about the Jews. It's on Google Books and archive.org. It's also on the Bibliothèque nationale website, which may be the French site you were thinking of. Adam Bishop (talk) 02:32, 22 October 2013 (UTC)

Yes, that's it—thank you very much! (I accessed it through this site, which is in fact linked to at Henri Sauval#External links. His history of the Jews is in Volume 2, Book 10, pages 509–532. (For an interesting example of Sauval's Jewish history being included in Hugo's work, see page 526, as well as page 552.) הסרפד (call me Hasirpad) 03:10, 22 October 2013 (UTC)

For the record, I was partially mistaken with respect to the date: Sauval lived in the 17th century, but his work was only published in 1724. הסרפד (call me Hasirpad) 03:13, 22 October 2013 (UTC)

Whatever happened to Joanne Jacobs?

Once upon a time, the San Jose Mercury News had a brilliant columnist by the name of Joanne Jacobs. Sharp but clever wit, but I don't recall that she was ever mean. The only sensible political commentator attached to a Bay Area newspaper that I can even think of. (At the time, the SJMN did a reasonable job of keeping news separate from editorials; they have since become a stridently partisan paper in the European mold, which does have the advantage of a certain directness, I suppose.)

But I haven't seen anything from her in years, and Google has not been very much help. Anyone know what she's doing, and why she quit what she was so good at? --Trovatore (talk) 06:46, 22 October 2013 (UTC)

She comes up on a LinkedIn search with a 23-year history at that paper, so I'm pretty sure it's her. She has a website at www.joannejacobs.com and blogs and writes on education. - Karenjc (talk) 07:05, 22 October 2013 (UTC)

(ec) Here she is, and here too. ^{Market St.⧏} _{⧐ Diamond Way} 07:09, 22 October 2013 (UTC)

Thanks, both. I suppose I saw some of those hits when searching. I'd just like to see more of the stuff she used to do. Oh well. --Trovatore (talk) 01:21, 23 October 2013 (UTC)

Looking for a good explanation of literacy problems

Hi all, I saw on the news that an Australian student completed year 12 without knowing how to read or write. Does anyone know how this can actually happen? References would be great, but are not essential for contributing, because they might be hard to find. Anecdotal answers would be more than welcome. Speculation that involves some evidence, and some speculative gap-filling, would be quite ok. Pure speculation should be avoided, if you could be so kind. Thanks in advance, IBE (talk) 16:28, 22 October 2013 (UTC)

You may be interested in an historical case from the U.S. Dexter Manley is an interesting case study, he was basically shuffled along through the education system even though he could neither read nor write because he was a good athlete, and he performed well on various schools football teams. The Wikipedia article only touches on it briefly, but the phenomenon in general in the U.S., and Manley in particular, have been covered in depth by many reliable sources. For example here is a 1989 article on the case from the New York Times. I know you are looking for Australia specifically, but this at least gives you a related case from the U.S. --Jayron32 16:33, 22 October 2013 (UTC)

(ec) This is pretty good - funny, relevant, and interesting; a good start for the thread. The only thing wrong is that the explanation is too good, so it wouldn't apply to many cases, where I think the same thing happens without a special motive on the part of the institution. I don't think the Australian student had such compensating advantages, because I would expect them to have been mentioned in the news story. That is far from certain, but likely all the same. So any examples of less talented people who could trip around the system without being tripped up by it would also be welcome. Examples from first world countries strike me as quite relevant by analogy. IBE (talk) 17:03, 22 October 2013 (UTC)

See Social promotion. Duoduoduo (talk) 17:01, 22 October 2013 (UTC)

In cases where it's not in the school's interest to admit that they failed to teach a student, they will often cover up that fact. Tests are supposed to tell us things like this, but there have been cases of teachers correcting answers on tests so they look better: [1]. StuRat (talk) 17:59, 22 October 2013 (UTC)

IBE, can you provide a link to the news story you heard? There are various hits for people finishing school who cannot properly read or write (whatever that means) or are "functionally illiterate", but your question makes it sound as if this person couldn't do these things at all. That would suggest a massive cover-up on the part of the education authorities, which continued every year for about 12 years. I struggle to believe this. -- Jack of Oz ^{[pleasantries]} 18:09, 22 October 2013 (UTC)

Sure, see [2] and go to the show The Project, Monday 21 October, 32:00 (main story), 33:15 (Mark Haddrick, barely able to read his own name after year 12). IBE (talk) 18:36, 22 October 2013 (UTC)

Got it, thanks. Here's a direct link to the story: [3]. There could be various factors as to why a particular person has special challenges with reading and writing, dyslexia and vision problems being the most obvious. But for him to be advanced in grade year after year for 12 years without being able to do any of the work says to me there's something seriously broken with the system. How come every other kid had to sit many, many written tests, and had to demonstrate their ability to read aloud, and had to demonstrate they could comprehend what they were reading - but he always got let off? How come his parents weren't consulted about his difficulties? (Or maybe they were, and maybe they gave up too.) To me, this is child educational abuse, and in terms of ongoing impact on his life it's on a par with child sexual abuse. -- Jack of Oz ^{[pleasantries]} 19:00, 22 October 2013 (UTC)

The first number on that page makes me extremely suspicious of its reliability. 44% have a literacy level below 3? Neither the study nor the definitions of the literacy levels are identified, but it's simply not possible that 44% of Australians can't read medication labels or road signs. --Bowlhover (talk) 21:21, 22 October 2013 (UTC)

I found the study this number refers to. The way it is presented in the article makes me a bit suspicious of its intent. The OECD study [4] shows that the results for Australia are consistent with or better that the remaining OECD countries. The definitions used [5] show that level 3 is rather demanding and has more to do with reading comprehension than what we typically understand as "literacy".No longer a penguin (talk) 08:39, 23 October 2013 (UTC)

The OP wrote that the student "completed year 12", not that the student "passed year 12". The system in the state of Victoria, Australia allows that. HiLo48 (talk) 11:25, 23 October 2013 (UTC)

The same is true in NSW, where a number of students complete study without matriculating or sitting the Higher School Certificate. In particular, a large number of people with intellectual disabilities successfully complete schooling without having attempted a HSC or matriculation. Australia's grade system isn't comprised of a pass/fail test system or curriculum. In NSW it is a continuous curriculum of expectations, punctuated by two schools certificates examinations after the leaving age. Fifelfoo (talk) 20:39, 23 October 2013 (UTC)

See Why the Extent of English Illiteracy Is So Well-hidden.

—Wavelength (talk) 18:49, 23 October 2013 (UTC)

That article seems to be about American illiteracy - not English illiteracy!! Alansplodge (talk) 23:18, 23 October 2013 (UTC)

What would be the consequences...

What would be the consequences to America's foreign policy & national security if the U.S were to default on its debt in the future? -- Willminator (talk · contribs) 18:33, 22 October 2013 (UTC)

I think this was discussed at some length a couple or three weeks ago. You might want to check the archives. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 18:40, 22 October 2013 (UTC)

In the meantime, let me get out my crystal ball... This is the reference desk, not the prediction desk. μηδείς (talk) 19:07, 22 October 2013 (UTC)

Ok, so I went to the archives, but there was nothing about any impact a default would have on U.S foreign policy/national security. I'm pretty sure there are sources and alarming predictions out there. I just haven't found anything detailed yet. Where can I at least go and find this information if no one is willing to direct me to some answers? And predictions that can be backed by other sources are also valid assumptions for the Reference Desk. Willminator (talk) 19:25, 22 October 2013 (UTC)

And I'm pretty sure that almost this exact same question was asked, either just before or just after the shutdown occurred - and it was met with similar cautions about crystal ball. [Although I can't find it just now.] No one can say for sure what would happen. However, there are any number of news sources citing experts on what could happen. Have you looked for this subject in Google? I would stick with editorialists connected with relatively neutral news sources, such as CNN and BBC. Many pundits were predicting a potential "domino effect" on the world's economy, and a downturn in America's standing in the eyes of world. That kind of thing certainly could impact foreign policy and national security in some way. But you would need to consult those pundits' writings to learn why that domino effect could happen... and what its consequences could be. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 19:33, 22 October 2013 (UTC)

The US effectively defaulted in 1933, and had previously defaulted several times in the past if one includes all bonds which were not honoured in the past -- with no particular ill-effects (we disallowed the "in gold" clauses in all contracts and bonds in 1833). A short default is not really the same as refusing to honour bonds or notes, which is what some pundits seemed to think was the case. As the biggest "non US government" holder of those bonds and notes is, IIRC, the Federal Reserve [6] (about 2 trillion dollars - or about the total securities held by the two largest foreign countries) and SSA holds nearly five trillion dollars of the debt - the scare reports are pretty far off the mark. Unless, of course, one thinks the SSA and Fed would participate in a panic? I suspect that neither the Fed nor SSA would panic at that point, and all other bonds could be kept current with minimal effort. But scaring people is the standard procedure for politicians. Collect (talk) 19:51, 22 October 2013 (UTC)

While that may be standard procedure for pols, most everyone seemed to be in agreement that we're better off not having to find out what a default would do. The OP's question is about foreign policy and national security, and that covers a lot of ground. I don't recall those subjects coming up very much, compared with the potential economic consequences. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 20:10, 22 October 2013 (UTC)

It isn't so theoretical since the US has defaulted at least twice before. See a USA Today story here and a Huff post story here. Also it is important to note that constitutionally all debt payments are paid first with the millionshundreds of billions in automatic custom fees/income taxes/other fees collected every month, so the only way a "default" would take place is either the Executive would give an unconstitutional order not to pay those first or an Executive branch official would make a major mistake. ^{Market St.⧏} _{⧐ Diamond Way} 20:19, 22 October 2013 (UTC)

Where is that in the Constitution? ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 20:31, 22 October 2013 (UTC)

The 2 actual defaults aren't in the constitution, but if you mean the debt being constitutionally obligated it would be the 14th Amendment. That was in the news the last 3 weeks ad nauseam for both "teams". ^{Market St.⧏} _{⧐ Diamond Way} 20:48, 22 October 2013 (UTC)

I guess you're referring to Section 4: "The validity of the public debt of the United States, authorized by law, including debts incurred for payment of pensions and bounties for services in suppressing insurrection or rebellion, shall not be questioned. But neither the United States nor any State shall assume or pay any debt or obligation incurred in aid of insurrection or rebellion against the United States, or any claim for the loss or emancipation of any slave; but all such debts, obligations and claims shall be held illegal and void." ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 21:21, 22 October 2013 (UTC)

Section 5 might provide guidance as well. ^{Market St.⧏} _{⧐ Diamond Way} 21:32, 22 October 2013 (UTC)

Section 5 authorizes Congress to pass appropriate legislation. That's the can-of-worms found in some of the amendments beyond the Bill of Rights block. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 21:49, 22 October 2013 (UTC)

That would be one interpretation of the section, which is why a news search in the last 3 weeks and back in 1979, 1995 etc. turn up so much colorful language and not just between Republicans and Democrats. ^{Market St.⧏} _{⧐ Diamond Way} 21:58, 22 October 2013 (UTC)

I don't see how there could be more than one interpretation of "Section 5. The Congress shall have power to enforce, by appropriate legislation, the provisions of this article." The can-of-worms comes in where the word "appropriate" is concerned. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 22:04, 22 October 2013 (UTC)

Applied to both, besides in the U.S. there are at least as many as '9 opinions' that come from a marble palace, Perry v US with the 14th. Interparty splits were evident in the recent write ups with different interpretations of how Congress enforces power or if the 14th lets the Executive enforce more then just debt payments passed by former Congresses. ^{Market St.⧏} _{⧐ Diamond Way} 01:15, 23 October 2013 (UTC)

As Perry notes, the 14th amendment clause merely confirmed an older Constitutional prohibition of default from the 5th amendment, because bonds are considered property. There have been many (generally unanimous) rulings that such government obligations, which include but are not restricted to bonds, are constitutionally protected, and so Congress does not have the power to repudiate them. Except for oddities of the sort that one would expect in centuries of existence, the USA has never nominally defaulted on its debt. The foreign policy & national security consequences are hard to say. It would rightly make the US look ridiculous in the world, and the natural, immediate economic effect of such a needless and irrational act would be very bad, comparable to 1929 or 2008. After that, who knows?John Z (talk) 05:32, 23 October 2013 (UTC)

A significant point in that amendment was to repudiate any Confederate debt. Of course, as with the basic Constitution calling slaves "certain persons" instead of slaves, the amendment doesn't advertise the Confederacy by directly naming it. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 08:16, 23 October 2013 (UTC)

Warren Buffett, who is primarily an investor and not so much a politician, has some interesting things to say about the general subject.[7] ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 08:13, 23 October 2013 (UTC)

Before I forget, I found these browsing this question on Google:

• A debt default occurs anytime a creditor fails to make a timely interest or principal payment.
• 1790 and 1933
• 1790, 1861, 1933, 1979
• 1779, 1862, 1934, 1979
• 1814 & 1979 with some mentions of 1933 & 1790
• Debt ceiling has been left to expire several times prior to 1979 & copy of same story.
• WashPost was 1979 a real default?
• another from WashPo
• from the UK Telegraph
• from Bloomberg
• from NPR
• NY Times. ^{Market St.⧏} _{⧐ Diamond Way} 11:10, 26 October 2013 (UTC)

October 23

humanities

i want all information about the grandson of raavana in the Ramayana.i am referring to vanmali — Preceding unsigned comment added by 117.193.118.241 (talk) 11:20, 23 October 2013 (UTC)

Does the Wikipedia article titled Ravana help any? --Jayron32 17:53, 23 October 2013 (UTC)

Vanmali isn't mentioned in the article. --Soman (talk) 03:58, 24 October 2013 (UTC)

I've asked WikiProject India if they can help you. The only grandsons of Ravan that I've heard of are Ahiravan and Mahiravan (but not in all versions of the story). Taknaran (talk) 13:07, 24 October 2013 (UTC)

Ahiravana, Mahiravana are described his brothers of Ravana. I could not find any mention of sons of Indrajita in the Valmiki Ramayana or the Puranas. Regional Ramayanas may have a character called as Vanmali. --Redtigerxyz ^Talk 17:03, 24 October 2013 (UTC)

Identifying source Journals..

In a work at Wikosurce which I've just finished doing an inital transcription on there are some references to other journals.

Some of these are obvious, but it would be appreciate if someone can help with decoding..

Wikisource:Book_of_Halloween/Magazine_References_to_Hallowe'en_Entertainments

Abbrv.	Publication
Good H.	Good Housekeeping
H. Bazar	Harper's Bazar
L.H.J	Ladies Home Journal
W.H.C	Womens Home Companion
Delin	The Delineator

I can't figure out what Delin and W.H.C are. Sfan00 IMG (talk) 13:49, 23 October 2013 (UTC)

W.H.C. is likely Woman's Home Companion. It was published from 1873 until 1957. Delin is likely The Delineator. Edison (talk) 14:39, 23 October 2013 (UTC)

And Harper's Bazaar was formerly called Harper's Bazar, but it's never been spelled Bazzar. Deor (talk) 21:28, 23 October 2013 (UTC)

Thank you. Sfan00 IMG (talk) 10:16, 24 October 2013 (UTC)

Any Info on Jessie Willcox Smith?

I am a student at the College of Staten Island creating a more in depth page for the designer and Illustrator Jessie Willcox Smith. If anyone has any info that I could use it would be most helpful. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Johnmccarthyyy (talk • contribs) 16:01, 23 October 2013 (UTC)

I take it that you've already seen our Jessie Willcox Smith page and the list of links at the end? This page has a list of external links and below that, sources, all at the very bottom of the page. Jessie Willcox Smith: American Illustrator by Edward D. Nudelman has a preview on Google Books (well, it does for me anyway!) Alansplodge (talk) 16:18, 23 October 2013 (UTC)

Wu Sangui (another story)

Extended content
The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.
There is a story about Wu Sangui and the Qing Leader Dorgon (1643 – 1650). This story contradicts to “Loyalty and revolt” describing Wu Sangui in Wikipedia. Before Wu opened the gates of the Great Wall of China at Shanghai Pass to let the Qing forces into China proper on 25 May 1644, Wu and Dorgon had agreed upon something. Wu agreed to open the gates of the Great Wall of China. Dorgon agreed to let the three provinces, Yunnan, Fujian, and Guangdong remain independent from the territory of Qing Empire. At that time, the rebel force of Li Zicheng had already sacked the Ming capital Beijing. After the death of Dorgon on 31 December 1650, Shunzhi Emperor started to rule personally. Shunzhi Emperor started the plan to get back the three provinces, Yunnan, Fujian, and Guangdong from the control of Wu. In 1655, Qing government titled Wu as “Pingxi Prince” and Wu granted governorship of Yunnan and Guizhou. Qing government also titled the other two generals, Shang Kexi and and Geng Zhongming, who had served in Ming Dynasty, as “Pingnan Prince” and “Jingnan Prince”. Shang was put in charge of the province of Guangdong. Geng was put in charge of the province of Fujian. After the death of Shunzhi Emperor on 5 February 1661, Kangxi Emperor became the successor of the Qing Dynasty. Kangxi Emperor broke all the promises made by Dorgon to Wu. At that time, Geng Jingzhong had inherited the title of “Jingnan Prince” from his father Geng Jimao, who had inherited it from his grandfather Geng Zhongming. In 1673, Kangxi Emperor accepted the request of Shang’s retirement. Kangxi Emperor also accepted the request of Wu’s retirement and Geng’s retirement shortly after Shang’s retirement. The war between Wu and Kangxi Emperor started in the following year. Zheng Jing, who was the King of Taiwan, joined the force against Kangxi Emperor. In 1678, Wu claimed himself the emperor of Great Zhou Dynasty. The generals were Wu Shifan, Geng Jingzhong, and Shang Zhixin. In 1681, the Great Zhou Dynasty was defeated and completely destroyed. The generals were captured or died. Zheng surrendered to Qing in October 1683. Taiwan and the three provinces, Yunnan, Fujian, and Guangdong, became part of Qing Empire after the war. Kangxi Emperor broke the promises made by Dorgon to Wu was known to all the scholars. Many scholars refused to serve Kangxi Emperor. There were a few scholars served Kangxi Emperor. Many people were arrested under language inquisition or speech crime. However, the most well-known inquisition was the “Case of the History of the Ming Dynasty” in 1661-1662 before Kangxi Emperor came in power in 1669; Wu was “Pingxi Prince” at that time. This story contradicts to “Loyalty and revolt”, which is unfair to Wu. Kangxi Emperor, who had many achievements afterwards, broke the promises made by Dorgon to Wu. This is the cause of the war between Kangxi Emperor and Wu that the war is later known as “Revolt of the Three Feudatories”. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 61.18.56.147 (talk) 21:35, 23 October 2013 (UTC)

You will need a source to support this information if you believe it should be included in Wikipedia. - Karenjc (talk) 22:02, 23 October 2013 (UTC)

Do you have a question? - Cucumber Mike (talk) 22:05, 23 October 2013 (UTC

The OP seems to be complaining that the article section Wu Sangui#Loyalty and revolt is unfair to the article subject, and offers an explanation why. The place to discuss this is at Talk:Wu Sangui, but as I said, reliable sources will be needed. -Karenjc (talk) 06:48, 24 October 2013 (UTC)

Maybe he should contact Mr. Wu's attorney, the Hon. Charles H. Hungadunga. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 02:23, 25 October 2013 (UTC)

Speed of transport in 1810s Europe

I'd never heard of the Malet coup of 1812 until just now, when I saw it on the Main Page. According to the "Suppression of the coup" section, Napoleon wrote letters after 7 October that reached Paris by 23 October. According to File:Patriotic War of 1812 ENG map1.svg, Napoleon was near Moscow by the beginning of October. How long would it normally take for an unimpeded express courier to travel this route at this time? Nyttend (talk) 22:39, 23 October 2013 (UTC)

Doing some searching, I'm getting (very rough estimate) the distance from Moscow to Paris at 1700 miles or so. The Pony Express could get mail and packages from Missouri to California in about 10 days, which is roughly 2000 miles. So, Napoleon's message certainly could have gotten the message to Paris in a little over 2 weeks. --Jayron32 23:00, 23 October 2013 (UTC)

According to a footnote here, Napoleon himself made it from Smarhon’ in Belarus to Paris in twelve days in December of that year. p. 179 also has a reply written on 16/10 to a letter from the Countess Montesquiou, his son's governess & so presumably in Paris, which was sent on 27/9 - so at this time in the campaign he was returning letters within nineteen days at the outmost. Remember that once an official message got near France it could have been picked up by the Chappé telegraph; by 1812 there was a signal network as far as Amsterdam and Venice, so I'm not sure how far east it had got into Germany. Andrew Gray (talk) 23:22, 23 October 2013 (UTC)

Simply Chappe telegraph (no accent). — AldoSyrt (talk) 07:45, 24 October 2013 (UTC)

Redirect has been created. Tevildo (talk) 20:03, 25 October 2013 (UTC)

In French, no accent to Claude Chappe, the inventor. Strange that his name gets one in English. — AldoSyrt (talk) 15:33, 26 October 2013 (UTC)

Maybe he's considered a happé chappé in Englois. -- Jack of Oz ^{[pleasantries]} 21:56, 26 October 2013 (UTC)

• I know I have seen travel time maps like these of the US in 1800/1830 of France during the revolutionary and Napoleonic eras in a class I took on the era as an undergrad. I have not succeeded at google, but they exist. μηδείς (talk) 02:17, 25 October 2013 (UTC)

Referring to civil unrest and violence in Northern Ireland

When referring to violence in Northern Ireland (specifically in the second half of the 20th century) is saying "the Troubles" considered politically charged? Is there an accepted way to write about this in say political science or IR or global affairs literature? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 213.212.253.17 (talk) 23:39, 23 October 2013 (UTC)

The Wikipedia article is titled The Troubles and makes no specific mention that the term is perjorative or charged; however like much involved in such ethnic conflicts, literally EVERYTHING is "charged" in the sense that there is probably no "neutral" stance. --Jayron32 23:52, 23 October 2013 (UTC)

Covering the troubles Christopher Hitchens was stopped by armed men at a roadblock and asked, "Are you Catholic or Protestant?" Hitchens replied, "I'm an atheist." The gunman responded, "Catholic atheist, or Protestant atheist?" μηδείς (talk) 01:01, 24 October 2013 (UTC)

That's a variant of an old joke; in its more classic form, the reply "I'm a Jew" is followed by "Are you a Catholic Jew or a Protestant Jew?" AnonMoos (talk) 01:30, 24 October 2013 (UTC)

If so, Hitchens' version at least makes sense; me being a Jewish Catholic, and a Catholic atheist. μηδείς (talk) 20:23, 24 October 2013 (UTC)

So were you like Bill Maher, who said he used to go to Confession and bring a lawyer with him? ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 02:19, 25 October 2013 (UTC)

Good one! Actually, if you needed a lawyer the best confessor to go to would be a Jesuit. They could be relied on to find loopholes to make your sins into lesser ones or guilt-free. It's called casuistry. Technically I am Jewish through my mother's ancestry. Culturally I am Catholic. But I have no faith. μηδείς (talk) 16:44, 25 October 2013 (UTC)

I always thought of it as a typically Irish, fairly understated euphemism similar to World War II being known as "The Emergency". Biggs Pliff (talk) 01:07, 24 October 2013 (UTC)

English also, as in the book 1066 and All That. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 04:00, 24 October 2013 (UTC)

I can't recall seeing any alternative term that is at least quasi-official, universal and less charged. Militant Republicans have used the phrase "the Armed Struggle" for the IRA's campaign against British military presence in Northern Ireland, but this hardly counts. The University of Ulster's CAIN website (Conflict Archive on the INternet) includes a good glossary of terms, loaded and neutral, connected with this subject, and points out that its own site uses 'The Troubles' and 'Northern Ireland conflict' interchangeably. -Karenjc (talk) 07:11, 24 October 2013 (UTC)

My view (UK) is that "The Troubles" came into use precisely because it was seen as much less politically charged than any alternative. Ghmyrtle (talk) 07:36, 24 October 2013 (UTC)

Agreed. Alansplodge (talk) 07:38, 24 October 2013 (UTC)

Yep. Even "Northern Ireland conflict" has connotations for those who prefer the term "Ulster". The CAIN glossary points out that it's not the first time the term "The Troubles" has been used to refer to violence and unrest in Irish history. - Karenjc (talk) 07:58, 24 October 2013 (UTC)

Although I think you would have to specify if you meant any other "Troubles" than the late 20th century ones. Alansplodge (talk) 12:18, 24 October 2013 (UTC)

Maybe not. Russia had its Time of Troubles between 1598 and 1613. God knows they've had an unending litany of troubled times, a litany that started many centuries before this relatively short period and has continued right up to the present day, but that specific expression refers only to the link. -- Jack of Oz ^{[pleasantries]} 21:00, 24 October 2013 (UTC)

October 24

Relationship between foreign services

What's the relationship between the foreign (including clandestine) services of United States, Britain, Israel, Russia and China? I know James Bond shows UK and US cooperating - and Israel is an "ally" of the US. What about Russia? is it more hostile? is it "on the side of" China which has somewhat hostile (hack each other etc) relations with the U.S. (I imagine this might be the case due to communist past?). What about Russia and Israel? hostile to each other? Israel I thought was led by loads of Eastern European emigres? I guess I can imagine this going in either direction. so, which are hostile or cooperative among e.g. CIA MI6 Mossad KGB and whatever Chima 's hack happy service is? (plus other branches or foreign services; these are just examples) thanks!!!! 84.3.160.86 (talk) 12:07, 24 October 2013 (UTC)

We could tell you, but we'd have to kill you....-Jayron32 13:08, 24 October 2013 (UTC)

Death by a thousand wiki-edits! ^{Market St.⧏} _{⧐ Diamond Way} 19:49, 24 October 2013 (UTC)

FSB replaced KGB.
Sleigh (talk) 19:01, 24 October 2013 (UTC)

Fishing dependent communities in Spain and Portugal

Hello, dear Wikipedians.

I've searched a good bit now I reckon, but cannot find a good answer to what I had hoped would be a simple question: Which Spanish and Portugese regions/communities depend the most on fishing? Is their vast distant fishing fleet 'local' to any particular region?

I hope you can help me. Thank you in advance.

88.89.136.248 (talk) 13:06, 24 October 2013 (UTC)

Fishing in Portugal#Marine fisheries says The main landing sites in Portugal (including Azores and Madeira), according to total landings in weight by year, are the harbours of Matosinhos, Peniche, Olhão, Sesimbra, Figueira da Foz, Sines, Portimão and Madeira.

The article Spain#Economy doesn't even mention fishing, so maybe it's not so important there. Duoduoduo (talk) 16:15, 24 October 2013 (UTC)

"Any study of the EU fishing fleet has to start with Spain, by far the EU's most significant fleet that ranks the highest in terms of tonnage, power and value of landings and is only tipped into second place by the Danes for landing volumes and the by Greeks for vessel numbers." This advocacy site mentions Galicia, the Basque ports and Lanzarote (the last for sardines). I'll try and look some more refs up when I have a minute. Itsmejudith (talk) 16:42, 24 October 2013 (UTC)

Duoduoduo --the Spanish fishing fleet has been involved in several notorious incidents, such as the Turbot War... AnonMoos (talk) 01:26, 25 October 2013 (UTC)

OP here. Thank you for your answers. I had indeed gained the impression that Galicia, Eskuria and Lanzarote might be very important. I had simply not thought to look at the main country website for Portugal, thinking these secrets would be buried far deeper in the internet. This should be sufficient information for me. 88.89.136.248 (talk) 18:53, 24 October 2013 (UTC)

• • OP here: *Euskadi — Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.89.136.248 (talk) 19:09, 24 October 2013 (UTC)

If you ask any Cornish or Irish fisherman where "their vast distant fishing fleet (is) 'local' to" they'll probably say "here". [8] [9] [10] [11] Alansplodge (talk) 20:39, 24 October 2013 (UTC)

I know what you're getting at, Alan, but distant fishing fleets are all based in a certain port and travel vast distances. It started with the Basques and the English going to the Grand Banks from the 15th century or so. The other kind of fishing is inshore fishing (article needed), where boats go out only a short distance and return within 24 hours with a fresh catch. Itsmejudith (talk) 21:45, 24 October 2013 (UTC)

I'm afraid I was having a rant, but the whole system seems to be grossly wasteful and unfair with only the Spanish benefitting. Alansplodge (talk) 12:21, 25 October 2013 (UTC)

When the French started exploring Canada for furs, they were surprised to learn some of the Algonquian Indians understood Basque and spoke an Algonquian–Basque pidgin. This was from contact with the Basque fisherman. μηδείς (talk) 00:54, 27 October 2013 (UTC)

Is Christianity just more intertwined in African American culture?

Is Christianity just more intertwined in African American culture, or are African Americans just more religious than white people? I recently watched a PBS documentary about African Americans, and one scene talked about how Europeans could not enslave other Europeans because Europeans were perceived to be Christian, and Christians could not enslave other Christians. In that case, the loophole would be: if you convert to Christianity, then you can be free, right? I suppose this was where the skin color/racial issue came about. Is African American spirituality (mainly Christianity) a large part of African American culture due to struggles during the slave years of the United States? (Nowadays, you hear African American music like Where is the love? by Black Eyed Peas and it can be loaded with Christian references.) 140.254.227.56 (talk) 14:24, 24 October 2013 (UTC)

Atlantic slave trade and abolition discusses how religion was used both for and against slavery.

Another factor in your question is the way that minorities or groups who perceive themselves to be disadvantaged, may use their distinctive style of worship as a symbol of their own identity. An extreme example is The Troubles in Northern Ireland that we have been discussing above; I'm not sure that many of the violent characters that drove the struggle are particularly devout Christians, but they define themselves and their community in terms of their faith that includes their friends but excludes their enemies. Alansplodge (talk) 17:03, 24 October 2013 (UTC)

Christianity in the United States may give you some insight. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 17:05, 24 October 2013 (UTC)

• You seem to be talking about differences in cultural expression. Southern and black Christian denominations tend to be very expressive in worship, with song and dance and call-and-response preaching styles, with Gospel music, and speaking in tongues. Italians and Irish tend to be more religious in a quiet, intense, superstitious sort of way. I have in all my life never heard a congregant speak out or anyone make any spontaneous declaration a a Roman or Byzantine Catholic church. Only once, 30 years ago, was there ever applause at my local parish. The priest announced the mortgage on the church had been paid off. One person clapped, and there was some stunned reaction to this. Then the priest said "go ahead, applaud" and there was a standing ovation. μηδείς (talk) 19:13, 24 October 2013 (UTC)
• Christiantity is very important in White Anglo-Saxon Protestant culture ... Its just that "WASPs" tend not to be outwardly expressive about it. It's considered gauche to outwardly religious. Inwardly religious is fine. Blueboar (talk) 19:35, 24 October 2013 (UTC)

• For an inside view with the question see Intercession. Although this theme is more relevant to Catholicism and the Eastern species of Christianism than to its other branches, the point of agreement and understanding between Christians (which you called "loophole") depends on it, and most religious abolutionists understood it for this. Calvinists tended to be more practical indeed, but not excluding the agreement. The non-abstract aspect of the question is that someone - the more religiously aware - have to be able to intercede. Mysticism is an other question. --Askedonty (talk) 20:18, 24 October 2013 (UTC)

It seems to be a basic premise of Christianity, from the initial comments of Jesus about Pharisees, that it is not possible to tell how religious someone is from their observances. And everyone's opinion is different. Citing a "fruit of the tree" principle I might say that groups like the SNCC and Martin Luther King, Jr., the abolitionists, liberation theology, even the Deism of Thomas Jefferson would represent highlights of the Christian philosophy --- but that would be more a statement about me than about them. But surely there are good and bad people of all races. Wnt (talk) 02:03, 25 October 2013 (UTC)

African American Christians could still be slaves, couldn't they? There was no magic solution, you couldn't be freed just by being Christian, as far as I understand. However, this actually was the case in certain places in the Middle Ages - Christians couldn't be enslaved, and converting to Christianity (if you were a Muslim/Jewish/pagan slave) would automatically set you free. (Theoretically, anyway.) Adam Bishop (talk) 10:07, 25 October 2013 (UTC)

Andrew Brown

Are Andrew Brown (writer) and Andrew Brown (media strategist) the same personn? thanks, --88.160.13.244 (talk) 16:02, 24 October 2013 (UTC)

Interesting question, reading both wikiarticles carefully there are some general similarities but I would say no they are different people. ^{Market St.⧏} _{⧐ Diamond Way} 19:45, 24 October 2013 (UTC)

No, different people. Both "Andrew" and "Brown" are fairly common names, so the coincidence of names+dates isn't that remarkable. Andrew Gray (talk) 20:15, 24 October 2013 (UTC)

Notability of same age/name/profession would be at least a little remarkable. ^{Market St.⧏} _{⧐ Diamond Way} 21:32, 24 October 2013 (UTC)

Given that one self-identifies as English, and the other is Gordon Brown's brother... No. Ghmyrtle (talk) 21:53, 24 October 2013 (UTC)

The one that "self-identifies as English" has Wikipedia listing his "nationality" as something not "English" (infobox). Given that the other's brother was PM Brown it seems both have claimed to be British. ^{Market St.⧏} _{⧐ Diamond Way} 21:59, 24 October 2013 (UTC)

As Gordon Brown's father was a Church of Scotland minister in Kirkcaldy, the it seems unlikely that his brother was born in London, although not impossible I suppose. Alansplodge (talk) 07:36, 25 October 2013 (UTC)

Isn't there a pair of cricket players with the same name and same year of birth that both have articles? I seem to recall seeing a pairing like that where the disambiguation got to be quite tricky. I think they were either born or played in the 19th century. Anyone recall this? A quick googling didn't help me. Matt Deres (talk) 15:43, 27 October 2013 (UTC)

October 25

The town of Bulembu and the Bulembu clan

A post at the Help Desk[12] requested help in finding sourcing to establish that the name for the town of Bulembu originated with the Bulembu clan of people, who are born with certain gifts that are passed down from parents to children where "bulembu" is the gift. I cross posted this request at Wikipedia:Reference desk/Language. -- Jreferee (talk) 04:42, 25 October 2013 (UTC)

It seems unlikely. The article on the town says the name comes from the Swati language word spider web; the meaning is the same in the Zulu language, and I cannot find any Zulu word for gift that resembles this. To have a clan named after a spider web doesn't seem at all unlikely. Attributing it rather to a gift may be a more modern face-saving back story, see also folk etymology. That being said, this is Swati, and not Zulu, (although they are very close) and I do not have a Swati dictionary and cannot prove a negative. μηδείς (talk) 16:38, 25 October 2013 (UTC)

Editable

Besides wikipedia and rationalwiki, which are the top 5 high traffic editable encyclopedias online? Pass a Method talk 12:27, 25 October 2013 (UTC)

Uncyclopedia has to be up there. ^{Market St.⧏} _{⧐ Diamond Way} 00:13, 26 October 2013 (UTC)

I would like you to add my books to your references

Under your title HADRIAN, could you please add my book as a reference: Hadrian and Antinous, their Lives and Times, by Michael Hone, 2013, on line at Amazon.

Under Antinous could you please add my book as a reference: Hadrian and Antinous, their Lives and Time, by Michael Hone, 2013, on line at Amazon.

Under Troy could you please add my book as a reference: TROY, on line at Amazon, by Michael Hone, 2012, on line at Amazon.

All of these works are on sale at $1:00 but can be downloaded for free, proof that I'm not at all interested in money.

Sincere Thanks,

Michael Hone — Preceding unsigned comment added by 92.156.243.203 (talk) 13:37, 25 October 2013 (UTC)

The Hadrian and Antinous book[13] and Troy book[14] seem to be a self-published book. WP:USERGENERATED notes that self-published media are largely not acceptable in Wikipedia articles as Wikipedia reliable sources. Also, they do not seem to qualify for article placement under Wikipedia:External links. -- Jreferee (talk) 14:18, 25 October 2013 (UTC)

Would a self-published book by an already-notable author, like for example David McCullough, be considered reliable? ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 14:40, 25 October 2013 (UTC)

Adding them as a reference, even if they were reliable, wouldn't make sense if they hadn't actually been used as a source for any of the information in the article. Mingmingla (talk) 15:12, 25 October 2013 (UTC)

To answer Bug's question... A lot depends on the reputation of the author and the specific subject matter of the self-published work. We do allow self-published works from established experts writing in their field of expertise. McCullough, for example, has earned respect from other historians for his works on American history and biography. That reputation would qualify him as a subject matter expert to some extent. So, if he self-published a biographical work relating to American History, we would probably not disqualify that book as a source. However, the same would not hold true if he self-published a book on (say) Macro-economics. That is not within his field of expertise. Blueboar (talk) 15:20, 25 October 2013 (UTC)

That makes sense. As with blogs, self-published works are pretty much only valid for expressing what their author thinks about something... maybe unless said blogs or self-published books have been peer-reviewed and then recommended by said peers. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 23:29, 25 October 2013 (UTC)

Why does the US spy on its allies?

What's the point at all? They are not planning attacks on the US, or are lenient with terrorists (maybe Saudi Arabia is an exception here, but, it is a peculiar ally). — Preceding unsigned comment added by Boreish23 (talk • contribs) 18:26, 25 October 2013 (UTC)

Speaking on yesterday's The World at One, a retired senior British intelligence bigwig (for some reason that episode isn't available for download, so I can't check who specifically) said pretty much:

• every government does it, to everyone they can, all the time
• no politician (that we work for) ever complained to us that we were giving them info that came from spying on a "friend" like this
• before Dr. Merkel complained she should have consulted with the Bundesnachrichtendienst, 'cos they do it too, and she surely gets the product of that from them

-- Finlay McWalterჷTalk 18:51, 25 October 2013 (UTC)

As to why they'd bother- countries like the US and Germany are both "friends" (countries are not little girls - they don't have BFFs) and competitors:

• it's useful for negotiations (as they're all kinds of talks always going on, including endless trade disputes and treaties)
• for commercial purposes (where an intelligence agency passes info on to companies in its country - so if the boss of Airbus tells Angela Merkel how much they're offering to charge China Air for some A310s, NSA can tell Boeing who can just undercut that, without cutting their own throat). Again, the Americans aren't the only ones doing this - it was generally believed that the DGSE bugged the first-class cabins of Air France Concordes, and passed juicy commercial goodies on to French companies (ref, for example, Keeping Us Safe: Secret Intelligence and Homeland Security]] by Arthur Hulnick). An interview with someone from the VSSE about commercial espionage in Brussels is here.

-- Finlay McWalterჷTalk 19:03, 25 October 2013 (UTC)

But here's my favourite - as you know, the UK broke the German Enigma cipher and the similar but fancier Lorenz machine - but after the war, they kept their ability to do so completely secret. Why? Because the many independent Commonwealth countries that were emerging from the vanishing British Empire were using Enigma machines or similar rotor devices (commercial German variants, Swedish and American made Hagelin machines, and apparently some actual Enigmas and Lorenz machines the British captured at the end of the war). So up-and-coming Commonwealth countries including India, Pakistan, Ceylon, and various Caribbean states, could all be intercepted without issue. (ref, for example, Empire of Secrets: British Intelligence, the Cold War and the Twilight of Empire by Calder Walton). I think Australia, New Zealand, and Canada were in on the "ULTRA" secret and so this wouldn't work on them. -- Finlay McWalterჷTalk 19:30, 25 October 2013 (UTC)

• Finlay's answers are spot on. I would just add the Jonathan Pollard case. There are also the quotes of Lord Palmerston, Charles de Gaulle, and John Foster Dulles that nations have interests, not friends. μηδείς (talk) 19:40, 25 October 2013 (UTC)

All countries spy on their allies, if they can. At least I assume they do. Then if they get caught, the spied-upon country will affect as much hurt outrage as they think will benefit them, but most likely they're spying on the other country too. Merkel's biggest gripe is likely to be not so much that Obama can hear her phone calls as that her spies aren't good enough to let her hear his. That is, assuming they're not, which who knows. --Trovatore (talk) 19:42, 25 October 2013 (UTC)

The same World at One also had an interview with a guy from a German security company which was in the process of rolling out an add-on cryptosystem for German Government handis, which consisted of an SD-Card with an additional crypto hardware chip (and some software for the phone to use it, I guess). He said that he didn't think Merkel had one of these in the timeframe in question (bet you're ass she's got one now). He said that once she did have the chip, NSA wouldn't be able to intercept her any more (but MRDA...). We can also recall the battle Obama had with USSS+NSA about keeping his Blackberry - it looks like he succeeded, but only because they made him a crap(pier) one. -- Finlay McWalterჷTalk 20:52, 25 October 2013 (UTC)

I remember hearing some years ago an allegation that a company bidding in a telecoms auction had received information about the other bids from the intelligence services of the allied government where it was based. At the time I thought to myself what on earth are they doing getting engaged in commercial espionage instead of tackling terrorism, but now it occurs to me that the intelligence services probably had an arrangement with the company to help them with their spying if they got the bid. So much for allies! Dmcq (talk) 23:44, 25 October 2013 (UTC)

Indeed, as said above it's not a US thing, and it's not about national security (at least when they are spying France or Germany), but big business. And I wouldn't be surprised if the US catches a German or French spy in the next weeks, just to make the point that others do it too. OsmanRF34 (talk) 12:38, 26 October 2013 (UTC)

Sweden

Two questions about Sweden: 1) According to the Economy of Sweden article, business is largely private, with only 5% of companies state-owned. But over 50% of Sweden's GDP comes from government spending. So what goods and services does the government supply exactly?

2) Why haven't private companies moved to other countries to escape high taxes? 74.15.138.165 (talk) 19:11, 25 October 2013 (UTC)

(1)They have very high tax rates and social spending, this gets taken from and funneled back to private businesses. (2) How do you move a restaurant, a grocery store, a mine, a dentist's office, or a moving company overseas? μηδείς (talk) 19:42, 25 October 2013 (UTC)

Endorse this. What goods and services does the government supply? Overwhelmingly services, and those mainly health and education, as in most developed countries. Itsmejudith (talk) 20:23, 25 October 2013 (UTC)

It is also worth noting that it says that 5% of companies are state-owned. One explanation for the discrepancy in numbers is that significant parts of GDP comes from national, regional and municipal agencies, health organisations and other forms of organi~sations that aren't companies. /176.10.249.240 (talk) 21:00, 25 October 2013 (UTC)

Agree with 176.10.249.240, my limited understanding of nations like Sweden is that 5% of companies are government owned, but that just happens to be the largest oil company, airline, energy utility, brodcast tv network, hospital system, insurance company, bank, car company etc. So despite 5% of all companies that tiny 5% represents something like 70%-90% of the GDP of the nation. It would be similar to the Fortune 500 in the U.S. having the top 300 corporations owned by the government, true it is just a very tiny fraction of all companies large and small, but they are the largest and most powerful corporations. ^{Market St.⧏} _{⧐ Diamond Way} 00:08, 26 October 2013 (UTC)

Yes, your understanding is very limited (and possibly prejudiced) indeed. You have no support for these numbers and as far as I can see your claim is completely false. Swedish stateowned companies doesn't exceed 10% of their GDP. You are mistaking your local propaganda and the description of banana republics with reality. --Saddhiyama (talk) 00:25, 26 October 2013 (UTC)

Saddhiyama declares the Swedish Government is "very limited (and possibly prejudiced) indeed."?

www.Government.SE: The state as a company owner
The Swedish state is an important company owner in Sweden. The Swedish Government Offices manage 55 companies, of which 42 are wholly owned and 13 partly owned. These companies represent substantial values and are large employers. Furthermore, they are ultimately the common property of all Swedish taxpayers. The state therefore has a considerable responsibility to be an active and professional owner.

Before you spread your confusion of my words with others (who said "banana republic" & wikilinking that helps the OP answer this question?) you can improve your "very limited knowledge indeed" of Guidelines, AGF, CIVIL & publicly accessible websites on what the actual Swedish government claims, as you put it in a way that helps not answer the question: "local propaganda" & all. Looking forward to your hyperbolic congratulations for my responses where I don't defer to others knowledge, or only ad hominems are what you like to contribute? ^{Market St.⧏} _{⧐ Diamond Way} 06:41, 26 October 2013 (UTC)

Back to sourced info, your assumption that those 5% represent 70-90 % of the GDP is incorrect. Swedish GDP in 2012 was 3 549 billion SEK, and the aggregated turnover in the state-owned companies was 354 billion SEK, approximately 10 % of the GDP. Significant parts of the GDP comes from organisations in the public sector that are not companies, but not s much as you might think. 80 % of the GDP is produced by businesses, the rest as services from the organisations that 176.10.249.240 mentioned. However, a lot of those businesses are working for the government, building infrastructure, running schools or providing health care. (Sorry about the all-Swedish sources, current sources in English are hard to find).Sjö (talk) 08:35, 26 October 2013 (UTC

The source I provided does lack percentages which I would be interested in, but the general tone made it pretty clear. BTW no one said 70-90% was Sweden, this might be lost in translation but the context above was "nations like Sweden", given you're math this may be semantical & if thats the case then GNP (which by my google searches is a number larger than Sweden's GDP?) or government dependent companies might be better terms but the larger point remains. When I plug the numbers you provide in with only 80% it is roughly 13% but I still remember something here that seems missing. If there is information that sheds additional light on this I would be very interested learning more since some of my google searches are coming up pretty bare on specific numbers of either direct or indirect percentage of economy though all the information of the Wallenberg family that kept popping up was a interesting side trip. ^{Market St.⧏} _{⧐ Diamond Way} 10:09, 26 October 2013 (UTC)

Also found this government website as well The Swedish state is Sweden's largest company owner and employer. Fifty-seven companies/concerns are managed through the Government Offices, 43 of which are entirely state-owned, and 14 partially state-owned. A total of some 190 000 people are employed at these companies. also wikipedia has an article on List_of_government_enterprises_of_Sweden#Wholly_owned which lists the largest Pharma, power utility, Iron Ore miner, rail & road networks with monopolies on TV networks, airport services and liquor stores. ^{Market St.⧏} _{⧐ Diamond Way} 10:35, 26 October 2013 (UTC)

Okay, so my next question is: how has business done so well in Sweden despite high taxes? Higher taxes reduces the profitability of business, so shouldn't business be doing worse than it is now? And what do you mean when you say taxes get "funneled back to private business"? Thanks. 74.15.138.165 (talk) 23:58, 25 October 2013 (UTC)

That is a popular economic theory but there are also a lot of believers in Keynesian economics especially where government controls and expenditures are encouraged for their view of economic success. ^{Market St.⧏} _{⧐ Diamond Way} 00:11, 26 October 2013 (UTC)

The problem is you're only looking at half the equation. The money the government takes in taxes hopefully doesn't all end up in the politicians' pockets, but actually is put to use to help the economy. So, good roads, airports, and ports, a well educated, healthy work-force, good fire and police services to protect the business's assets, etc. Third world nations tend to have very low taxes, but the total lack of all these government services makes their economies pathetic by comparison.

In theory, there should be a certain ideal tax rate, where the economy does the best, assuming those taxes are put to good use. US Conservatives would have us all believe that the ideal tax rate is zero, but that's absurd. What the exact ideal tax rate is is difficult to determine, but since countries like Sweden seem to have an impressive GDP per person, this suggests they have it about right. StuRat (talk) 00:12, 26 October 2013 (UTC)

That's a canard, and you've provided no source for your claim, Stu. It is anarchists who want a zero percent tax rate. Limited-government minarchists want a minimal tax rate, sufficient to cover the cost of the courts, the police, the military, and only those functions of the federal government strictly provided for by the constitution. (I.e., not foodstamps, education, public television, etc.). Conservatives include minarchists, but they also include people who approve of some social spending, but simply want to reign it back to a balanced budget. μηδείς (talk) 18:38, 26 October 2013 (UTC)

And in addition to the indirect benefits for companies of good infrastructure, an educated work-force and so on there are some direct benefits to the Swedish system. E.g. a comprehensive tax-financed health care system means that a company doesn't have to have health care and dental plans to attract competent workers, and the same goes for the retirement system where the employer's contribution generally is low in comparison to the tax-financed part. Sjö (talk) 10:34, 26 October 2013 (UTC)

It seems that on the tax front Sweden has sought to improve its move to privatization recently. I found these articles that were insightful here and here. Taxes and the funneling back thing might actually be archaic given article and this one. As far as healthcare this perspective might be revealing (it was for me) here. ^{Market St.⧏} _{⧐ Diamond Way} 11:03, 26 October 2013 (UTC)

You're using the word "improve" in a biased way. "Change" would be better. Several of the private companies involved in care for the elderly have been involved in scandals, and there is a general public backlash against the current government for wholeheartedly endorsing privatization based on ideology rather than financial reality. I can't find sources now, but notable parts of the population answer "no" to whether they want so-called "for-profit" companies to be allowed to bid for public healthcare contracts. On the other hand, if the question is worded differently, most also respond that they don't want any rules against profit being taken from running care facilities more efficiently than the government-owned orgainisations. /176.10.249.240 (talk) 16:42, 26 October 2013 (UTC)

Change is fine but my wording would need to be "has sought to change its improved move to privatization", change without "improve" could mean changing privatization to increase state control, despite if it was perceived as an 'improvement' by polls. Your point is important for what its worth, my statement was that a nation could improve something without any consideration of if it was popular. If you do find some links I'd be interested in reading through them, especially any dealing with tax policy and/or tax policy debate. ^{Market St.⧏} _{⧐ Diamond Way} 20:47, 26 October 2013 (UTC)

Also found this from CNBC seems my stats from above was still focused on my college research 10-15 years ago. ^{Market St.⧏} _{⧐ Diamond Way} 11:06, 26 October 2013 (UTC)

Off-topic and uncivil discussion about American politics
The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.
Once again, off-topic and uncivil debate removed. See talk page.

Need reference about inspiration of Tolkien

I tried to ask the same question at Portal talk:Middle-earth, but I guess the portal might be inactive for some years, I would also ask it there: Article of Half-elven says:"Like many other ideas in Tolkien's mythos, the notion of half-elves is borrowed from Norse mythology, in which elves occasionally had children with humans." Is there a reference to this(e.g. The Letters of J. R. R. Tolkien), or is it merely a speculation?--朝鲜的轮子 (talk) 22:53, 25 October 2013 (UTC)

I read the Letters twice and don't remember anything about them being in any way Norse-inspired. The Letters are available here in pdf form. A search reveals no connections. μηδείς (talk) 00:24, 26 October 2013 (UTC)

Really? I think there are quite some results if we search Tolkien and Norse in google and google scholar. Maybe the Half-elf thing is less mentioned than others as an example.--朝鲜的轮子 (talk) 02:24, 26 October 2013 (UTC)

I responded to you specifically about the Letters, as you yourself mentioned them. (I was surprised you hadn't found that PDF yourself.) Now that you are challenging me over what's available at google, I am even more curious why you are asking for our help. We don't do debate. You can certainly "search Tolkien and Norse in google and google scholar" and even get back to us if there's something you need explaining. μηδείς (talk) 02:33, 26 October 2013 (UTC)

The OP asked for references, and gave JRRT's Letters as an example of where such a ref might be found. It wasn't meant to be restricted to the Letters. -- Jack of Oz ^{[pleasantries]} 03:10, 26 October 2013 (UTC)

Who said it was, Jack? The OP asked for things such as X, and I gave him X, and he complained. That's his issue, not mine. μηδείς (talk) 21:37, 26 October 2013 (UTC)

That PDF file contains a number of OCR errors ("pan" for part, "Homburg" for Hornburg, "Flindustani", etc.), and I'm not too sure that it's legal... AnonMoos (talk) 10:46, 26 October 2013 (UTC)

• Tolkien certainly used the Norse word elf for his elves, and certainly read Norse literature widely, and certainly many scholars have discussed the influences of Norse mythology on Tolkien's fiction: PDF, book, article, book, PDF. However, I can't find a reference to support the idea that half-elven was a specific mythological borrowing rather than a logical consequence of an elf marrying a human. A good place to ask this question would be TheOneRing.net where a great many Tolkien scholars hang out. 174.88.9.74 (talk) 15:28, 26 October 2013 (UTC)

Elf is not a Norse word; it is pure English, descended from the Proto-Germanic language, through Anglo-Saxon to modern English. The Old Norse word is alfr, which is cognate, but not the ancestor of the English term. μηδείς (talk) 21:41, 26 October 2013 (UTC)

October 26

Towns called Verdi

Hello! I found some sources about the origin of the name of the town of Verdi, Nevada and added the information in the article but with my poor english I don't find anything about Verdi, California and Verdi, Minnesota :( Were these towns (and other maybe) also named after Giuseppe Verdi? Could someone give some sources about the history of these names? For the moment we have only a modest assumption without source in Verdi, Minnesota:

"According to several [???] sources, the town was named for the Italian musical composer Joseph [;)] Verdi"

--Mandariine (talk) 09:12, 26 October 2013 (UTC)

The California town was named after Guiseppe Verdi, according to the local history society. 174.88.9.74 (talk) 15:41, 26 October 2013 (UTC)

Thank you but this is the site of the history society of Verdi, Nevada :( I search a source for Verdi, California and Verdi, Minnesota ;) --Mandariine (talk) 16:37, 26 October 2013 (UTC)

Oh! I just saw the change of Ellin Beltz :) Would it be a single city straddling two states? --Mandariine (talk) 16:49, 26 October 2013 (UTC)

As this is his bicentenary year, I should advise that his first name is neither Guiseppe nor Joseph, but Giuseppe. -- Jack of Oz ^{[pleasantries]} 16:50, 26 October 2013 (UTC)

As two hundred years ago the departement of Taro was french Joe Greens was really registred as Joseph ;) but Guiseppe is pleasant too! Maybe in dialect ;) Thank you all for your researchs and your answers --Mandariine (talk) 18:00, 26 October 2013 (UTC)

Victor Borge used to refer to the composer of Aida as "Joe Green", claiming that Giuseppe Verdi was just "his stage name". ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 23:42, 26 October 2013 (UTC)

My favourite is Bedřich Smetana, otherwise known as 'Frederick Sour Cream'. -- Jack of Oz ^{[pleasantries]} 00:23, 27 October 2013 (UTC)

That always did seem funny. Is it indeed the same word, or just a homonym? Of course there are plenty of people with the name Maslo as well. μηδείς (talk) 00:50, 27 October 2013 (UTC)

Not being a czechophone, I cannot say. See also Griboyedov = "mushroom eater". -- Jack of Oz ^{[pleasantries]} 01:07, 27 October 2013 (UTC)

You think that's funny, guess what conclusion the Russians came to about the Samoyed people (Самоед) based on the presumed (but false) etymology of their name. μηδείς (talk) 01:20, 27 October 2013 (UTC)

Tit for Tat (Does the US spy on Americans in Israel?)

May one reasonable conclude that the USA does not run HUMINT operations with US citizen agents or assets operating extra-legally w/i the borders of Israel without the permission of the GOI? Evidence: the GOI would be sorely tempted to "capture" the agents or assets in order to trade them for various incarcerated Israeli assets/agents(?) housed in the USA federal prison system. Thank you. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 108.240.77.215 (talk) 11:22, 26 October 2013 (UTC)

No, the CIA operates from the United States embassy in Israel.
Sleigh (talk) 11:50, 26 October 2013 (UTC)

But do the gentleman and women of the agency have sufficient tradecraft to operate outside the embassy (which technically is American soil) within the state of Israel. without risking at least a diplomatic incident? Respectfully, this seems unlikely unless, of course, I simply have no idea what I'm writing about. Cheers. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 108.240.77.215 (talk) 11:59, 26 October 2013 (UTC)

You seem to be asking questions that even those with some lower levels of security clearance would not be aware of the answers. Is it possible? Is the CIA or other US teams capable? Yes and yes. To find a reliable source for this will be next to impossible and I can't recall any news item mentioning any of your conditions ever being reported, that of course doesn't mean that it never happens. ^{Market St.⧏} _{⧐ Diamond Way} 12:08, 26 October 2013 (UTC)

I suppose everything you've written is true. And can we agree that espionage between nation-states occurs within a political context. Disregarding "rogue" operations, would it be unwise to guestimate that the political masters of the US HUMINT agencies have put the GOI as out of bounds. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 108.240.77.215 (talk) 12:45, 26 October 2013 (UTC)

This is a place for intelligent guesses usually linked to reliable sources, your question is a good one but the whole point of this field is that they never get caught. As for putting GOI "out of bounds" (I am guessing GOI is short for government of Israel), speaking hypothetically and from what little information has come to light on operations such as these, it isn't unusual for our ally this decade to become a competitor the next, an enemy the third and then a close ally the fourth so the short answer is it has and can change as far as "out of bounds". HUMINT is also known to have swept up intel that it did not go out and seek not to mention double agents, government fronts etc. Again tho one has the luxury to guestimate anything one wishes with respect to your specific question since those who know don't speak and those who speak don't know as the intel folk like to say. One of the rare glimpses that is in the public realm of Israel and the US was the USS Liberty incident, but that was more signals intelligcence if even that and gets into a whole other world of conspiracy theories etc. ^{Market St.⧏} _{⧐ Diamond Way} 13:02, 26 October 2013 (UTC)

• The premise is way off the mark. If Israel started taking prisoners in order to swap them, it would put them on a basis of hostility with the US, which is the last thing they want, since they are critically dependent on massive US support. There is always some tension between the two countries because their interests are not identical, but Israel's survival depends on the good will of the US and it would be crazy for them to deliberately jeopardize that for the sake of getting a few prisoners back. Looie496 (talk) 16:07, 26 October 2013 (UTC)

Information regarding legality of file use and file format propriety

Hello Wikipedians. I know of Wikipedia's legal disclaimer and am intimately acquainted with the general discouragement of ref desk legal opinions. Therefore I am looking for your help to find information about a very specific question I had:

If a file wiith content which is someone's intellectual property can be run on two programs (eg. two different games), but is intended for only one, what is the legality of restricting or banning its use in the second? An example is the MP3 format - you can open such a file in any myriad of media players, and no artist can tell you to use only one type of player. Must the creator of the intellectual property also have proprietary rights to the file format in order to limit what programs the file can be opened with? Are there any precedents to this question being discussed legally, or perhaps already a firm convention on it? If the latter, are some file formats therefore explicitly 'open' and others closed? The question arises because in Bohemia Interactive's games Arma 2 and Arma 3, porting third-party content from A2 to A3 is often as easy as moving the content into a directory, with no manipulation of the content itself. My knee-jerk reaction is to disbelieve that there exists any precedent for limiting what applications can open content.

If you can point me to an authority on the question I believe I should be outrageously content. Thank you in advance for any help. 83.108.140.45 (talk) 14:19, 26 October 2013 (UTC)

I can't point you to an authority, but I can give my non-authoritative opinion. Generally speaking in order to use something proprietary you need to accept a license agreement, which is legally binding once you have accepted it. There are rules about what can go in a license agreement, but they're pretty liberal. The question is whether there is any prohibition on a license agreement containing the type of restriction you're talking about. I doubt it, but I don't know for sure. Looie496 (talk) 16:01, 26 October 2013 (UTC)

I don't claim to understand the law (honestly, I think it's just whoever has the most money wins) but in theory there's something about allowing reverse engineering for purposes of interoperability (see "post facto interoperability" section in that). The enforceability of shrink-wrap agreements is dubious - if they really were enforceable, wouldn't every piece of potentially unwanted program virus installer somebody gets tricked by CNet into installing by accident come with legal fine print that you agree to pay them $1 billion, transfer copyright to all your files, promise not to eat meat on Friday, etc.? Wnt (talk) 17:47, 26 October 2013 (UTC)

I am not a lawyer either, but I have done a lot of software development including writing code to interact with other people's file formats. My understanding is that, in general, the owner of a file format can choose not to publish info about it, but it can't prevent others from writing programs or designing hardware to interact with (read from or write to) that format. Some exceptions: 1) if part of the format technique id patented, the patent can be enforced. For a while you needed a license to write code to access the GIF format, because its compression technique was patented. (the result was the creation of the newer PNG format that significantly cut GIF's market share. The patent has now expired anyway.) 2) if the file format uses encryption or similar techniques to restrict access to copyrighted content, bypassing those "technical measures" may be a violation of the Digital Millennium Copyright Act (DCMA) in the US. Any of this may be different in other countries than the US, and may not have key details correct. If in doubt, consult a lawyer knowledgeable in this quite specialized field. DES ^(talk) 22:42, 26 October 2013 (UTC)

Brighton Rock

In Graham Greene's Brighton Rock there is a curious reference to "a well-known popular author displayed his plump too famous face in the window". I suspect (though I have no evidence) this might be a little dig by Greene at some contemporary of his. Who could it be? There is nothing about it on Google, btw. --Viennese Waltz 16:16, 26 October 2013 (UTC)

Evelyn Waugh comes immediately to mind, but he and Greene were great friends, and Waugh wasn't particularly associated with Brighton. Let's hope someone can come up with a better answer. Tevildo (talk) 17:49, 26 October 2013 (UTC)

According to The Life of Graham Greene: 1904-1939 (page 440), it was a reference to J. B. Priestley, who Greene had earlier made fun of in Stamboul Train. Abecedare (talk) 18:00, 26 October 2013 (UTC)

Great stuff, thanks. --Viennese Waltz 18:02, 26 October 2013 (UTC)