Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents

Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents

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Abusive behaviour of an admin

There was this pretty silly incidence at the Bikini page (see [1]), though no policy, guideline, rule or directive was violated. In fact, I tried to discuss the issue on both the article talk page (see [2], which resulted in no response from the other party, but positive response from uninvolved editors), the other party's talk page (see [3], which resulted in an inflammatory response, see [4]), and a bigger forum (see [5]).

That incidence calmed down quickly. But, immediately after I was templeted by User:Toddst1, an administrator, warning me that I could be banned for edit warring. At my talk page, he also told another uninvolved editor that there was no personal attack in the inflammatory response I've referred to here. I immediately posted to his page explaining the relevant guidelines and the incidence (see [6], which generated no response from the admin, though the admin was still busily working at the Wikipedia, see [7]).

I was wondering about the malevolence, and finally I have located at least on incident where the admin was at odds with me (see [8]). Even at that time I explained my stand, quoting sensible traditions (see [9], which generated no response from the admin).

If this is how an admin handles someone who doesn't agree to that admin, we have something to worry about. Threatening abusively is bad enough. But, when the threat maker has the administrative powers to carry out the threat, it becomes really dangerous. Will someone see the danger here? Haven't we seen enough rogue admins already, some of whom were actually regarded in high esteem? Someone, please, see into the matter.

This is not an official WP:ADMINABUSE complaint, yet. But, as off-Wikipedia sources report (see [10], [11] or [12]) abusive behaviour like this from editors with higher level access right is not just alarming, it's detrimental to everything Wikipedia stands for. Aditya^{(talk • contribs)} 09:35, 1 January 2012 (UTC)

You were given a notification using standard Wikipedia templates of a potential issue brewing - the same template being used tens of thousands of times before. Of course, edit-warring and its associated blocks (not bans) don't care if you're "right" in your content/style editing. There's nothing malevolent, and the template is pretty self-explanatory, so follow-up with the admin in question seems unnecessary. I'm hard-pressed to find anything wrong with the warning whatsoever - there's no threat. Referring to their actions as malevolence is probably pretty uncivil on your part. You're grasping at some pretty bizarre straws, IMHO. (talk→ BWilkins ←track) 11:59, 1 January 2012 (UTC)

I believe it's unlikely that the template has been used thousands of times where there is no edit-war, especially on the party who's been trying to get a discussion going and has approval of uninvolved editors. I know you're an admin and you can block me too. But, that doesn't make a wrong a right. BTW, I've been templated again with a slightly threatening note added, by the same admin. I really don't see much WP:AGF going around. Aditya^{(talk • contribs)} 08:54, 2 January 2012 (UTC)

You obviously do not understand the difference between a threat and a warning. Once again, a basic template has been used on your page - why not simply take the advice? Here's an interesting test, by the way: if you decide to reply to this thread, after you click "edit" look at the very top of the page - you'll notice a big orange box. (talk→ BWilkins ←track) 11:59, 2 January 2012 (UTC)

In what way was there no edit war at Bikini? Note that as there was only really 2 people involved, you can't claim BMK was edit warring but you weren't. As to why BMK wasn't notified they are a regular and so are well aware of our policy on edit warring, notifying them is not necessary. Although you've apparently been here for a while, it appears notifying you of our policy was appropriate given then you then disputed you were actually edit warring. Do remember that while it is good you initated and participated in discussion, this doesn't mean it's okay to edit war to try to enforce the result of the discussion. People have already pointed out ways you can get help if you achieve consensus but continue to be reverted.

Also as has been said you should have been informed both when editing this page and in the header that you need to notify people you are discussing. Since you did not do so, rather then complaining about being templated, just remember to do it next time.

Nil Einne (talk) 14:18, 2 January 2012 (UTC)

i think hes mad because the other user involved did not get a warning. also, aditya had conensus on the talk page and started a discussion, the other user involved still has not entered the discussion and consensus is completely against the way they keep reverting to. Bouket (talk) 21:27, 2 January 2012 (UTC)

• Frankly, if you are so sensitive, I am amazed that you have lasted so long on Wikipedia without leaving in frustration. I see nothing "inflammatory", nor any evidence of "malevolence". As for your claim that you were not edit warring, do you know what the expression "edit warring" means? If you don't then I suggest reading WP:Edit warring. If, on the other hand, you do know what it means, then I suggest looking at this edit, this one, and this one. JamesBWatson (talk) 17:19, 2 January 2012 (UTC)

• sorry can i ask a question? it seems aditya has conensus according to the talk page. the other user involved has not even joined the discussion. what is the correct course of action for aditya to follow, when he has consensus on the talk page but is still getting reverted? Bouket (talk) 21:10, 2 January 2012 (UTC)

It appears he had the last edit on 29 December. I think his correct course of action is drop the stick and back slowly away from the horse carcass and maybe even AGF. Toddst1 (talk) 03:45, 3 January 2012 (UTC)

maybe youre right. can i ask why you didnt warn beyond my ken? i think that is what really bothered him. Bouket (talk) 05:42, 3 January 2012 (UTC)

I can't speak for Toddst1, but as I explained above, there's a good reason not to template BMK, which as this case proved, clearly does not apply to Aditya. Nil Einne (talk) 12:42, 3 January 2012 (UTC)

i see now that you said its because BMK is 'a regular'. does this mean that if he continued edit warring then he would have been blocked with a warning? note in this case that eventually it was shown that BMK was reverting against consensus and simply saying his edits 'were better' in the edit summaries. aditya should have looked for consensus after the first revert, but can you see why even though you can justify to yourself toddst1's action, they may seem biased to aditya or to any outside observer? it looks like aditya doesnt care much anymore but i think this kind of experience he had is a negative experience and wasnt really his fault. Bouket (talk) 16:46, 3 January 2012 (UTC)

I will block regulars without warning for edit warring on the "you should know better" grounds, but it is probably more productive to warn both editors, as this often starts a dialogue and can prevent the need for a block. It's not necessary to use templates to deliver warnings, particularly with a regular editor, a bit of plain text is fine to remind them not to overstep the mark. Elen of the Roads (talk) 16:55, 3 January 2012 (UTC)

Expanding on what Elen said, the purpose of a warning is to ensure that the editor knows there is a policy that they are violating. I have no doubt that BMK is well aware of WP:EW and WP:3RR. However, Aditya Kabir (talk · contribs) didn't and clearly still doesn't understand that he was engaged in an edit war [13]. Time to move on. Toddst1 (talk) 17:02, 3 January 2012 (UTC)

Dolovis gaming the system – again

User Dolovis (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) has over the past year or so been involved in several disputes over the topic of diacritics (which he wants to rid wikipedia of). The common pattern has been a display of battleground mentality by move-warring, edit-warring and gaming the system (via editing redirects, so that page moves would not be possible without the intervention of an admin). For this, he deservedly received a page move ban (which seems to have been lifted since). After receiving the ban, he immediately started peppering WP:RM with move requests, which would normally have a good chance of going through if no-one opposed noticed it, thereby obtaining the same end result. For this, he was banned from making move requests for a while.

See also the latest (?) major quarrels over diacritics on Talk:Dominik Halmosi and Talk:Ľubomír Višňovský.

Dolovis is now back to his old tricks, making deliberate "mistakes" while creating redirects with diacritics, prompting him to edit the redirects again, adding template "R from title with diacritics". Diffs: [14], [15], [16], [17]. This is exactly why he received the page move ban.

It seems to me that Dolovis is set on having his way in wikipedia, no matter what, kind of a WP:OWN for the whole topic of ice hockey. He displays a total disrespect for other editors, in effect dismissing the whole idea of consensus, hoping to eventually wear other editors down. I think it's time to discuss expanding the ban on Dolovis to at least a topic ban for ice hockey (which is where his contributions are the most controversial) – and to reinstate the move ban and the ban on WP:RM, if indeed they have been lifted.

I think it's safe to say that Dolovis's pattern of behavior indicates that he will never learn.

User is notified.

HandsomeFella (talk) 10:01, 1 January 2012 (UTC)

Already being discussed: Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents#Controversial moves Ma®©usBritish ^{[Chat • RFF]} 10:10, 1 January 2012 (UTC)

The issues are related, but not the same. Dolovis is reporting Thomas280784 for "controversial" moves, I am reporting Dolovis for gaming the system – again. HandsomeFella (talk) 12:52, 1 January 2012 (UTC)

Not following, sorry ... are you saying the diacritic spellings are wrong, or that he should be making the diacritic spelling the stub and the ascii-7 (non diacritic) versions the direct? Nobody Ent 13:46, 1 January 2012 (UTC)

This report is aimed at Dolovis's behavior. On the diacritics issue, my view is that since they exist, and since there are articles on people, places, etc, that use them in en-wiki, it should reflect them (i.e. use the diacritics) in the title too. HandsomeFella (talk) 14:23, 1 January 2012 (UTC)

I'd oppose any type of ban, on Dolovis. GoodDay (talk) 17:36, 1 January 2012 (UTC)

Are you saying that you are supporting his behavior, which is what this report is aimed at? Is gaming the system allowed for diacritics-critics, but not others? Do not the rules apply equally to editors, regardless of views? HandsomeFella (talk) 17:51, 1 January 2012 (UTC)

Banning editors on either side of the dios dispute, will only add to the drama surrounding the topic. In future, go the RM route & there'll be less hassle. GoodDay (talk) 17:56, 1 January 2012 (UTC)

You did not answer the question. HandsomeFella (talk) 17:59, 1 January 2012 (UTC)

I support his actions if the end result is limiting or eliminating diacritics. GoodDay (talk) 18:12, 1 January 2012 (UTC)

You can't be serious. That is an unreasonable position. Having rules that don't apply to all editors ... I'm ... speechless. You're advocating anarchy, do you know that? Say, is there any breach of rules (or law) that Dolovis could commit, that you wouldn't oppose sanctions against him for, as long as that furthers if it furthered his fight (and yours) against windmills diacritics? HandsomeFella (talk) 18:23, 1 January 2012 (UTC)

HandsomeFella (geez.. some ego.. lol), GoodDay is well know for his strong pro-English national sentiments and Anglo-centric ideals, whether for better or for worse, that's my observation not a criticism. Simply put.. don't get drawn into a prolonged argument with him over this, you won't change his mind. On the flip side, I don't think a ban on Dolovis is necessary either. Just a firm bollocking, and told to read Wikipedia:DIACRITICS#Modified letters. I see this in the same way as British English vs American English – either use the strongest national tie, or if that fails, use whichever version of the article was created first, for the content, and redirect the other. In the end it's the same article. Ma®©usBritish ^{[Chat • RFF]} 18:55, 1 January 2012 (UTC)

Why did you have to interrupt? Goodday was just a few replies from defining himself as the first-ever wiki-terrorist sympathizer. ;-) HandsomeFella (talk) 20:50, 1 January 2012 (UTC)

Well, a) that would be baiting, and b) "wiki-terrorist" might be seen as a personal attack, so best not use it. I wouldn't get too smug that Dolovis has not won his argument.. things can quickly boomerang on ANI if you get complacent. Besides, GoodDay would be cautious, as he already has restrictions in other areas and wouldn't want to make his situation worse. Ma®©usBritish ^{[Chat • RFF]} 21:58, 1 January 2012 (UTC)

• To clarify, Dolovis is redirecting articles about hockey players whose names feature diacritics to titles without the diacritics (which is incorrect to start with as the thread above demonstrated) and then editing the redirect which prevents his action being reversed without administrative intervention. He has been warned about this before and instructed to refrain from this practice. I have blocked him for a week while further discussion can take place about what should be done long term. Elen of the Roads (talk) 17:54, 1 January 2012 (UTC)

You can see the problem here -

• Dolovis creates Tomas Matousek [18] - which isn't correct as the guy is Swiss and his momma called him Tomáš Matoušek, and we can see above that the ice hockey guys are now agreeable to the use of diacritics for players outside of the main North american ice hockey league.
• Dolovis then creates Tomáš Matoušek as a redirct to Tomas Matousek [19], and edits the page to add {{tl:R from title with diacritics}}.
• This means that his redirect cannot be reverted, so User:Kajman87 attempts to make a mend by copying the content from Tomas Matousek to Tomáš Matoušek, which is of course not how it's supposed to be done, violates Wikipedia's content release licenses, and is going to take some poor admin several minutes to clean up.

This is just disruptive. It has been the subject of previous ANI discussions and Dolovis has only escaped sanction by agreeing not to do it again. I consider the week block a mere precautionary, and would recommend that the community discuss how to deal with this long term. Elen of the Roads (talk) 18:07, 1 January 2012 (UTC)

Thanks for the really clear explanation. A ban of some sort seems appropriate. Nobody Ent 18:14, 1 January 2012 (UTC)

Long term solution: follow MOS guidelines. Use templates — Wikipedia:DIACRITICS#Modified letters and {{R from title without diacritics}}. Most standard English keyboards don't have easy ways to add accents, and not all native-English speakers are aware of every form of accent.. never mind incapable of creating them. So non-accented alternatives are necessary for searching which then redirect to the correct versions. It should be policy under ENGVAR to have unglyphed redirections of accented names to make it easier for everyone. See also recent RFC discussion: Wikipedia:Naming conventions (use English)/Diacritics RfC Ma®©usBritish ^{[Chat • RFF]} 18:38, 1 January 2012 (UTC)

No problems at all with someone properly creating unglyphed redirects to all the versions with diacritics - as you and MOS both agree, it's very useful. It is the way Dolovis does things to attempt to prevent the creation of the article at the glyphed title that is disruptive. Elen of the Roads (talk) 19:19, 1 January 2012 (UTC)

I'm not terribly impressed by this. Dolovis and I have rarely gotten along, but I did support his request to have his page move ban lifted because he claimed to recognize how such behaviour was disruptive, and promised to cease making such edits. Hopefully the block serves as a reminder that these kinds of actions won't go unnoticed. Resolute 19:06, 1 January 2012 (UTC)

I would add that these latest articles are all participants in the World Junior Hockey Championship, which is currently ongoing. Dolovis created them (typically with almost no information or value) so that he can dictate that the articles start without diacritics. If you wish to consider the IIHF's official literature for this tournament, he is potentially correct in some cases: all official programs and guides drop diacritics for Czech/Slovak names. However, diacritics are used for Finnish, Swedish, Danish and Swiss names. Russian is transliterated, and it appears Latvian names are also somewhat transliterated. Canada and the US have no names that require them. I would not care to guess whether the disuse of diacritics for the Slovaks, Czechs and Latvians indicates that dropping them is considered a proper spelling, or if they themselves just simplified for the sake of a North American audience. Resolute 19:16, 1 January 2012 (UTC)

See also this. Resolute 19:20, 1 January 2012 (UTC)

• This is a hideously cynical abuse of the system by Dolovis; he's just exploiting a technicality to get his own way. Regardless of whether we should use accents in titles, his behaviour, considering he's been subject to sanctions for this kind of thing before, is unacceptable. I propose a full topic ban from modifying/discussing/suggesting changes to the titles of articles about ice hockey players, or any other article titles which could contain accents, as he's just causing disruption when he edits in this area. It's time for him to move on. In response to Marcus British – we don't need to omit the accents for search reasons; you'll still get to the article even if you type it in without accents. Basalisk ^{inspect damage}⁄_berate 19:19, 1 January 2012 (UTC)

Basalisk, you are right with one exception. The drop down / "matching suggestions" search box works by Javascript (which I just tested to confirm). Without Javascript, or with it disabled, you don't get offered accented alternatives, thus making the process harder. I know disabling Javascript based on a lot of cynicism and "more vulnerable to hacking" myths, these days, but there are people and places who still practice it. And I'm not sure how iPhone/Blackberry type handsets work with regards to searching Wiki, and Javascript, as I don't use them, but I wonder if there are more limited. So in some case there are going to be people who experience hold-ups. Ma®©usBritish ^{[Chat • RFF]} 19:30, 1 January 2012 (UTC)

Fair enough, I don't really know enough about such things to bolster my opinion really! I guess I just like the authenticity of writing names the way they would be presented in their native language. I still stand by my suggestion of a ban, though. Basalisk ^{inspect damage}⁄_berate 19:48, 1 January 2012 (UTC)

Just to confirm, there would be no issue to creating an unglyphed version and redirecting it to the glyphed version. It is creating an artificial history at the glyphed version to prevent the article being at that title that is the problem. here is the original discussion concerning Dolovis, where this behaviour has been previously discussed. Elen of the Roads (talk) 19:53, 1 January 2012 (UTC) here is the discussion from October where he asked for the pagemove ban to be reduced on a pledge of good behaviour. Dolovis is arguing on his userpage that his actions are entirely above board. Elen of the Roads (talk) 20:00, 1 January 2012 (UTC)

I honestly think that this is a very trivial matter. We're talking about letters here.. it's not like he's playing with fire by altering religions and nationalities, etc. This is more a matter of MOS practices and accessibility, possibly an aside to ENGVAR. However, if he has has a ban or restrictions placed previously, he should not directly aim to breach it, or indirectly the spirit of it. But again, the matter is so trivial, that imo only people with a COI or a pessimistic admin could really say there is a severe lack of "good faith" in what he is trying to accomplish. His methods may be questionable, his goal is not. Ban him? No. Stop his methods being disruptive. Yes. Perhaps a little more headway would be achieved if editors stopped trying to make a mountain out of this.. it's not a big issue. It's a few wavy lines above some letters. In the end if we can have both, accented and plain English, then we can't go about punishing an editor for trying to apply one more forcefully. We simply need to get him to adopt a more NPOV. Mentor him or some shit.. don't beat him up over it. Ma®©usBritish ^{[Chat • RFF]} 20:14, 1 January 2012 (UTC)

Do you want to try talking to him? He might listen to you. Elen of the Roads (talk) 20:25, 1 January 2012 (UTC)

I'd second that.

Slightly related... MarcusBritish, re bad faith. As I pointed out in the previous thread Dolovis I'm uninvolved with this but I do see them acting in poor, if not bad, faith when they level an SPA accusation at an editor that obviously isn't based on contribution record. I also see it in creating new redirects under a accented name in such a way as to block good faith editors from boldly moving articles to them. This is part of the behavior that earned the indef ban from moving pages, true. But it is as disruptive, and a little more deplorable, when they have only reason for the edit after the fact to add the category template is to "lock" the page. - J Greb (talk) 20:43, 1 January 2012 (UTC)

That'll be a first.. but will give it a go. Am not taking sides though.. from his POV I don't think he's done anything too severe, just untoward, from a Wiki POV diacritics are a pain in the ass and limit accessibility. There are solutions, and I see no reason to deny him the ability to partake in doing things the right way. Ma®©usBritish ^{[Chat • RFF]} 20:45, 1 January 2012 (UTC)

I can't fault you for that. The only concern I would have is if they continue to be disruptive if the "right" way doesn't match their way. We're here right now because of that. If it persists, it may become the reason for the denial of participation in some degree. - J Greb (talk) 21:00, 1 January 2012 (UTC)

This matter affects such a small percentage of articles, that it seems to me to have been over-looked and only thinly tackled in MOS. That's not the fault of the editors, but the fault of the community for not closing the loophole. It only appears that he is going against policy.. but the policy on diacritics appears so thin, it's hard to say. Maybe time to tighten up the policy like ENGVAR, and make it less open to interpretation. At the moment it's his interpretation against others. I don't care either way, because both solutions can be applied. Ma®©usBritish ^{[Chat • RFF]} 21:22, 1 January 2012 (UTC)

Well, he closed the discussion on his talk page whilst whining about something or other. To me that's an example of WP:IDHT. I know where he can shove my thoughts now. Later, Ma®©usBritish ^{[Chat • RFF]} 22:10, 1 January 2012 (UTC)

Concerning the article Tomas Jurco, Dolovis' rvts were correct. An RM to move to diacritics, had been held at that bio article & no consensus was reached. GoodDay (talk) 20:39, 1 January 2012 (UTC)

They might have been, but then again, this issue is about his other behavior. And another RM could be opened, and then there would be a new decision.

I must say that I am very pessimistic about the chances of Dolovis complying by the rules. His history demonstrates the opposite, and still there seems to be admins ready give him more room. I don't know of any editor who has been so disruptive, and yet so cuddled by parts of the community. He adapts his tactics for the time being when he is punished, and, when he thinks nobody is looking, he resumes his previous behavior. We should have learned by now. HandsomeFella (talk) 20:50, 1 January 2012 (UTC)

I have opened a section about move functionality at the Village Pump. The technical problem of the edit needed to add a template to the redirect following a move causes inconvenience after any affected move, not just in cases like this. --Mirokado (talk) 20:36, 1 January 2012 (UTC)

My take on this is that Dolovis is being deliberately disruptive despite having been told in the past that such behaviour is not wanted. In the days of typesetting, diacritics were not generally used in English language text, unless it was in a book on learning a foreign language, where such use was essential. Nowadays, we have the technology to use diacritics. As we have the technology, we should use it. For those uncomfortable with the use of diacritis or unable to use them for whatever reason, a redirect should be created from the plain text version of the title whenever an article is housed at a title with a diacritic in it.

I would support any restriction that prevented Dolovis from moving such article or creating such redirects. There are plenty of other editors around who are able and willing to do such tasks without creating controversy in doing so. Mjroots (talk) 21:40, 1 January 2012 (UTC)

In this case the issue is not the need to add a template to a redirect after a move, but that Dolovis creates an article at a non-diacritic title. At a later point, he creates a redirect with diacritics (ok), then in a separate edit, adds a template so as to frustrate any non-admin's ability to move the article. It is that last edit that is causing Dolovis his issues. Resolute 23:03, 1 January 2012 (UTC)

I fully understand that. If Dolovis cannot play nicely, then he shouldn't be allowed to play at all. — Preceding unsigned comment added by mjroots (talk • contribs)

Cut and paste moves

User:Kajman87 appears to have "fixed" some of these articles via cut and paste moves. I am going to try and clean up that mess At the risk of causing a pile more issues, if they are current World Junior tournament participants, I will move them to the version that is reflected either in the IIHF programs I have (some cases with diacritics, some without) or per the result of a recent RM discussion. Resolute 23:03, 1 January 2012 (UTC)

2-ish¢

I'd restore the article/stub versions (plain) first to what was initially created. Check the redirects (diacritics) to see if anything points to them. If not just flat delete them. If so, delete and recreate the full redirect in one go. Then move things that need to be moved by a reliable source.

Some article won't, some diacritic redirects won't exist, and some of the moves may be yelled at, but at least the basis will be relatively "clean". - J Greb (talk) 23:41, 1 January 2012 (UTC)

In the end, it seems they only moved about four Slovakian players. I simply undid the edits rather than get complicated. As such, they are presently back at non-diacritic formats. Discussion on the proper spellings I leave to interested parties. Resolute 00:53, 2 January 2012 (UTC)

Ugh, I hope the RM route is used for those bios 'in future'. GoodDay (talk) 06:54, 3 January 2012 (UTC)

Indefinite topic ban proposal for Dolovis on moving/redirecting/or otherwise changing the titles of diacritic articles

Regardless of our own personal opinions on how diacritics should work (such as myself being a firm supporter of WP:COMMONNAME), it is quite clear that the diacritics issue is one that, for the people involved in it, is very highly debated. After the last huge big flare up that involved Jimbo's talk page and multiple others places a couple of months ago, things were agreed upon and everything became much more peaceful. However, Dolovis' actions here are pretty much the exact same that got him the move ban in the first place before and are extremely disruptive in terms of the agreement that was made in regards to Wikiproject Hockey and other groups. It is, to say it plainly, continued POV pushing on the subject of diacritics by Dolovis and the proper sanctions from such actions should be given out.

Remember, this has nothing to do with your personal opinions on diacritics. I'm far more on Dolovis' side of the issue than those who favor diacritics, but I can clearly recognize that these actions are deliberately disruptive. Therefore, I am proposing an indefinite topic ban on moving, redirecting/making diacritic related redirects, or otherwise changing titles of articles that have diacritics in the titles. This is indefinite in the sense that once Dolovis has proven that they will permanently stop these disruptive actions, the topic ban can be removed, but I suggest that the ban lasts a minimum of 1-3 months, if not longer, considering this is very clearly not a first offense in regards to this issue. Silverseren^C 06:28, 2 January 2012 (UTC)

The other thing we have to question is what do we do about new articles that Dolovis makes, as was mentioned above, where s/he is making articles on newly notable hockey players with titles that are in direct violation of what Wikiproject Hockey has put together. Perhaps require Dolovis to go through Wikiproject Hockey before making them? Silverseren^C 06:28, 2 January 2012 (UTC)

Edit: Based on Nobody's comment below, i'd added to the bolded part that the redirecting includes making new redirects in relation to diacritics. I assume that the intelligence of future users and admins will be enough for them to figure out when a redirect created by Dolovis violates this topic ban and when it does not. Silverseren^C 12:58, 2 January 2012 (UTC)

Discuss topic ban

This section is for detailed discussion about the issues related to a topic ban. -Wikid77 23:21, 2 January 2012 (UTC)

• I was unaware that WP:WikiProject Ice Hockey names could override policy WP:COMMONNAME: For years, the rule has been that no particular group of users can define a consensus viewpoint which overrides a WP:Policy statement. That means that "WikiProject Overnight Research" cannot start adding original-research text into articles in defiance of "WP:No original research" nor can a WikiProject override rules for naming articles. If President Bill Clinton once played ice hockey that does not mean the article can be renamed as "William Super-shot Clinton". I cannot support a topic-ban when a WikiProject is being credited with new policy-vio rules as being acceptable. First change one of the 63 sub-pages related to WP:COMMONNAME (WP:TITLE), such as defining policy with WP:Naming conventions (sportspeople), to clearly indicate the naming convention for notable ice-hockey players. -Wikid77 23:21, 2 January 2012 (UTC)

• The project isn't overriding common name. Its called a compromise for a reason, there is currently no consensus that common name extends to using or not using diacritics across the entire wiki. The most recent wiki wide Rfc on the matter split almost exactly 50/50 on the topic. As such to stop the unending edit wars on the topic the project came to a compromise until such a time as the wiki as a whole could come to a consensus. Also common name specifically mentions "Ambiguous or inaccurate names for the article subject, as determined by reliable sources, are often avoided even though they may be more frequently used by reliable sources." which is what is usually the case when you just strip the diacritics from a name instead of properly translating to English. -DJSasso (talk) 23:28, 2 January 2012 (UTC)

Please link to the policy page which authorizes the compromise for WP:HOCKEY to circumvent policy WP:COMMONNAME. -Wikid77 11:56, 3 January 2012 (UTC)

I will repeat since you keep calling "I didn't hear that". COMMONNAME does not prescribe the use or non-use of diacritics. In the absence of a wiki-wide policy on the use of them a local consensus can be established. This is a fundamental part of the wiki, it is done thousands of times throughout the wiki by all sorts of projects and groups of editors from single articles to groups of articles. -DJSasso (talk) 12:49, 3 January 2012 (UTC)

• It is also worth noting that:
  • Neither WP:COMMONNAME nor WP:UE (the relavent sub-sections of WP:TITLE) outlaw the use of diacritics.
  • WP:TITLE#English-language titles (the part preceding EU and the opening of EU) explicitly acknowledge that diacritics can be in article titles.
  • The hockey section of WP:Naming conventions (sportspeople) is limited to standardizing the dab phrase only.

Lacking a policy, overall guideline, or Wikipedia wide consensus it falls to local consensus, either on a Project or article level, to use or not use diacritics. All things considered, until there is a larger consensus to over ride it, WP Ice Hockey is showing a consensus on specifically how to handle diacritics over a body of related articles. This is prederable to the disruption that would be caused with each article going through the same debate.

- J Greb (talk) 00:03, 3 January 2012 (UTC)

Wait, policy WP:COMMONNAME states to use the common name, and "local consensus" is not allowed to override policy. First change the official policy, before trying to force new rules on users. -Wikid77 11:56, 3 January 2012 (UTC)

There is no official policy to change, the entire wiki has not been able to come to a consensus. When there lacks a policy local groups can create a local consensus. This is done hundreds of times a day throughout the wiki on all matter of topics. Its one of the fundamental steps of WP:BRD. -DJSasso (talk) 12:49, 3 January 2012 (UTC)

• WP:HOCKEY's dios compromise was hard-fight, but it has proven & continues to proove itself to be a capable peacemaker. GoodDay (talk) 07:06, 3 January 2012 (UTC)

I understand your frustration, but we cannot allow any WikiProject to circumvent policies for their personal preferences, nor allow a "WikiProject Overnight Research" to have a compromise "secret pact" to insert original-research text into articles. -Wikid77 11:56, 3 January 2012 (UTC)

Exactly what part of using a persons actual name is original research. You are aware these names can be sourced right? Which completely shuts down any claim of original research. -DJSasso (talk) 12:49, 3 January 2012 (UTC)

• Which specific policy statements is User:Dolovis accused of violating? Some other editors have noted that User:Dolovis did not actually violate the same policies, but rather made other changes not specifically prohibited by any policies. I do not call that "disruption", instead I call that "allowed by policy". We do not topic-ban people just because they were previously banned, were unbanned, and then did things allowed by policy. Since this is still the New Years Day holiday, I will allow a few extra days for replies here. Thanks. -Wikid77 23:21, 2 January 2012 (UTC)

• WP:BATTLE and WP:POINT are the two that immediately jump to mind...there are many others that could be considered to have been broken as well such as his tendency to make personal attacks while in his battle mode. -DJSasso (talk) 23:32, 2 January 2012 (UTC)

Refuting unjust claims is not a case of WP:BATTLE, nor is reporting an editor for non-consensus moves of a "dozen" (14) articles away from WP:COMMONNAME titles (in English-language sources) into foreign spellings. -Wikid77 11:56, 3 January 2012 (UTC)

Actually yes, reporting a user for making moves which he is allowed to make by policy and then attacking the user is an issue. To repeat there is no consensus wiki-wide that WP:COMMONNAME applies to the use/non-use of diacritics. It even goes as far as to say the inaccurate names should not be used despite being the common name, removing a diacritic instead of translating is being inaccurate. -DJSasso (talk) 12:43, 3 January 2012 (UTC)

• Those two are the biggies. Also, Wikid77 there was no "unbanned". Dolovis is currently under an indefinite ban on moving articles with diacritic titles. Full stop. Their actions have been to game the system to continue editing in a similar manner that resulted in that ban. As a number contributors have pointed out that is the issue here, not the diacritics. - J Greb (talk) 00:09, 3 January 2012 (UTC)

• Ahh yes I completely forgot about the most obvious one. WP:GAME. -DJSasso (talk) 00:16, 3 January 2012 (UTC)

Well, the WP:GAME which I see here is allowing a "secret pact" with WP:WikiProject Ice Hockey to rename articles with rare non-WP:COMMONNAME titles, against policy. Plus, then trying to claim a user was "gaming the system" when they were following written policies rather than the secret-pact agreement. -Wikid77 11:56, 3 January 2012 (UTC)

The Gaming of the system comes from him trying new methods of doing that which he is currently banned from doing in an effort to game the system. It is a very clear breach. This has nothing to do with a secret pact agreement as you have been told numerous times now. -DJSasso (talk) 12:43, 3 January 2012 (UTC)

Support/Oppose topic ban

Consider reading and discussing the detailed issues, above, under "#Discuss topic ban" before posting Support/Oppose below. -Wikid77 23:21, 2 January 2012 (UTC)

• suppport to my knowledge I've never taken part in this debate or had an issue with it, but this kind of behaviour is clearly inappropriate, it's been discussed before, he continued, send him packing.--Crossmr (talk) 08:06, 2 January 2012 (UTC)
• Support. I commend Silver for getting to the heart of the issue here – this has nothing to do with my opinion on diacritics, but Dolovis' gaming of the system is damaging for the encyclopaedia. It has to stop. Basalisk ^{inspect damage}⁄_berate 09:26, 2 January 2012 (UTC)
• Support – given that Wiki offers a way of both using and not using diacritics, and that the search function can work with or without them, I agree that they are not the issue. Having tried to discuss the matter with Dolovis, he developed an WP:IDHT stance. It did not help his position. I hope a short ban will help him develop a more neutral view of the matter and allow others tidy up in the meantime. Ma®©usBritish ^{[Chat • RFF]} 09:53, 2 January 2012 (UTC)
• Support. There's been far too much of the battleground mentality, and deliberate gaming of the system. The article creation is part of the same problematic behaviour; I would welcome some kind of constraint on article creation too. We're not so desperate to expand our collection of 2-sentence stubs on obscure hockey players that we need this particular editor to create pointy placeholders with incorrect titles... (Disclaimer: I have been involved in one of Dolovis' previous disputes, but not the current one as I generally don't edit hockey articles) bobrayner (talk) 11:17, 2 January 2012 (UTC)
• Support – if it's possible to implement. I can see a problem though. Dolovis's strategy to jump at every chance of adding new Czech and Slovak players is aimed at establishing a first diacritic-less version. Since he's neither Czech nor Slovak, why else would he be doing it? He then believes that first version will decide the "fate" (diacritics-wise) of the article for all eternity, kind of like WP:DATERET. Since what he creates by definition is without diacritics, how can a ban stop him? The only way I can see, is that he's only allowed to edit articles on topics relating strictly to the English-speaking world – and that's a very tough ban. And I doubt that it's possible to implement.
  • One more thing: if such a ban is to be implemented, I don't see the point in lifting it after 1-3 months. If he'd keep a promise not to return to his old ways, he'll not suffer from having the ban indefinitely.
  • Yet another thing: judging from several of the comments in the ANI discussion here, and the "Controversial moves" section above, a new consensus seems to have emerged. Was there a new agreement over diacritics? I mean this stuff about Jimbo's talkpage, have I missed something? If there's a new agreement, where can I read about it? And Marcus B, by "tidying up" above, did you mean that it's ok start posting RM:s for articles that miss the diacritics? I mean, I don't want to end up in the same mess as Dolovis.

 HandsomeFella (talk) 11:26, 2 January 2012 (UTC)

I meant if Dolovis has previously moved article content around cut/paste style, etc, they need tidying up back to their original form with the correct history. I don't know what RMs are. Ma®©usBritish ^{[Chat • RFF]} 12:37, 2 January 2012 (UTC)

Wikipedia:Requested moves Silverseren^C 12:39, 2 January 2012 (UTC)

Yeah, WP:RM is the place to go if you're not able to move pages yourself, or if you want a discussion first. I don't think Dolovis would perform copy-paste moves, that is only (or mostly) done by editors unaware of the WP:RM process, or the move functionality. HandsomeFella (talk) 12:47, 2 January 2012 (UTC)

• Support - and add "creating articles or redirects" to the list of prohibited actions. Nobody Ent 12:51, 2 January 2012 (UTC)
• Support Silverseren's proposal. I would extend it to "creating BLP's where the subject's name contains diacritics in their native language, whether or not he uses the diacritics." There does seem to be a new consensus about diacritics in people's names - that probably ought to be properly written up elsewhere.Elen of the Roads (talk) 13:13, 2 January 2012 (UTC)
• Oppose, as I don't see any vandalism or socking by Dolovis. GoodDay (talk) 13:31, 2 January 2012 (UTC)

No one is claiming either; the issue is continued disruption. Nobody Ent 13:37, 2 January 2012 (UTC)

He aint being disruptive, he's trying to respect the fact that this is English Wikipedia & not Multiple language Wikipedia. GoodDay (talk) 13:42, 2 January 2012 (UTC)

Diacritics are used in English words. Their use is no different to ENGVAR: "-ise" or "-ize", "-e" or "-é". Ma®©usBritish ^{[Chat • RFF]} 13:51, 2 January 2012 (UTC)

Also Rudy Vallée, Zoë Bell and Noël Coward. Jafeluv (talk) 14:45, 2 January 2012 (UTC)

Which should be spelt as Rudy Vallee, Zoe Bell and Noel Coward. In otherwords, I haven't changed my stance. GoodDay (talk) 15:44, 2 January 2012 (UTC)

I wasn't expecting you to change your position, GoodDay. I'm simply pointing out that you represent this as an "English vs. non-English" issue, yet at the same time you say that we should be telling English-speakers how to spell their name in English. Jafeluv (talk) 19:10, 2 January 2012 (UTC)

You mean they didn't/don't know how to spell their own names? One thing, GoodDay: there are some clues – e.g. "spelt" instead of "spelled" – that leads me to believe that your native language is not English. Is that correct? Nothing wrong with that, but that makes it all the more puzzling why you're so eager to "defend" the English wikipedia against diacritics. HandsomeFella (talk) 15:58, 2 January 2012 (UTC)

Actually, that's American English: spelt, spilt, learnt, burnt. Spelled, spilled, learned, burned, in British English. Ma®©usBritish ^{[Chat • RFF]} 16:11, 2 January 2012 (UTC)

Then I suggest you ask your mentors to give you a poke with the neutrality stick. The spelling is no different, and the accented letters are still from the Latin alphabet. The addition of glyphs simply indicates a phonetic difference, because we don't all pronounce things the same. Doesn't matter what your "stance" is.. that's the way the world is regardless of what anyone thinks. Ma®©usBritish ^{[Chat • RFF]} 16:08, 2 January 2012 (UTC)

I haven't changed my stance. I still oppose topic banning Dolovis. GoodDay (talk) 16:29, 2 January 2012 (UTC)

That's allright. There are another 10 editors here who haven't changed their stance either. HandsomeFella (talk) 16:34, 2 January 2012 (UTC)

(ec) Life is a little more complicated that that: there are several Spanish words whose meaning out of context is only determined by the accent which otherwise denotes the stressed syllable; in German we can replace ü etc by ue but simply dropping the umlaut is fundamentally incorrect; in Scandinavian languages the "accents" are part of the glyph of a different letter – Å sorts after Z in the Danish alphabet, for example. --Mirokado (talk) 16:39, 2 January 2012 (UTC)

I understand accents.. but in Spanish (and maybe others) I don't get ¿ and ¡ – reverted, upside-down punctuation marks means what? Ma®©usBritish ^{[Chat • RFF]} 17:27, 2 January 2012 (UTC)

IIUC, ¿<text>? and ¡<text>! are proper formatting of questions and exclamations in Spanish. And we've seem to have strayed a bit far afield... - J Greb (talk) 18:19, 2 January 2012 (UTC)

• Support an extended ban as proposed by Elen. Dolovis' passion for the subject has entirely clouded his judgement, and his activities are blatantly disruptive. Favonian (talk) 13:38, 2 January 2012 (UTC)
• Now that I see he even creates re-directs that don't make any sense at all — support Choyoołʼįįhí:Seb az86556 ^{> haneʼ} 13:42, 2 January 2012 (UTC)

• Support this has been a long time in coming. He is far too aggressive in his dealings on the topic. If he would have focused his energy on helping the wiki in a centralized place come to some sort of agreement then all would be well. Instead he at first focused on overwhelming opposition by creating large numbers of move request, then he proceeded to create double redirects to make it so non-admins couldn't move the articles and then he went out looking for every marginal person he could find with diacritics in their name so that he could create them without the diacritics first. All of this is ridiculous and a clear indication of far too much bad faith and inability to work in a group to solve issues. He definitely needs to be topic banned from all things diacritics. -DJSasso (talk) 15:25, 2 January 2012 (UTC)
• Support per WP:GAME. Dolovis should equally be indefinitely restrained from disruptive spoiler tactics such as creating worthless stubs of individuals whose names are rendered with diacritics in their native form; equally there should be an indefinite prohibition on editing any namespace containing diacritics. --Ohconfucius ^¡digame! 15:40, 2 January 2012 (UTC)
• Questions
  1. Am I reading this right as the indef ban specifically covering: a) Moving existing pages titled with diacritics to English-only; b) editing existing redirects under diacritic titles; and c) creating new redirects under diacritic titles?
  2. What would "...or otherwise changing titles of articles that have diacritics in the titles" cover? Use of {{DISPLAYTITLE}} to suppress titles? Use of RM? Requesting/suggesting other editors move pages?
  3. Is this intended to also address actions like #Controversial moves?

I agree that something needs to be done to stop the disruptive habits, but those habits include more than just article and redirect editing.

- J Greb (talk) 16:03, 2 January 2012 (UTC)

Yeah I was thinking about that myself. I think it should be worded as topic banned from creating/moving/discussing articles with diacritics or which would have them in their native languages to clear up ambiguities. -DJSasso (talk) 16:12, 2 January 2012 (UTC)

• Support ban. Sigh; it went further south. He should not create titles with diacritics (he doesn't like them anyway), he should not edit diacritic redirects (avoid gaming), and he should not move diacritic related articles (previous ban). The complaint is not about his belief but his tactics. Dolovits should refrain from diacritic gaming. Silencing his voice at RM or discussions isn't appropriate now, but I hope he will dial back his argument style -- repetition and omission are not effective. The issue is contentious, and it will come back. Glrx (talk) 17:16, 2 January 2012 (UTC)
• Support ban, sadly - I can see merits to both sides in the diacritics debate, but in practice it seems workable using redirects whichever way they happen to be, and we shouldn't have to tolerate any battleground and gaming approaches to railroading it one way or the other -- Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 17:29, 2 January 2012 (UTC)

• Sorry, but some browsers cannot access titles with some accented letters, and using the common English names actually fits the spirit of WP:Accessibility. People are judging this issue who do not understand the concepts. -Wikid77 (talk) 18:17, 2 January 2012 (UTC)

• You have a reference to back that claim up I assume right? Because I happen to know that isn't the case for any modern browsers within the last 5 or so years because I have tested. This issue has nothing to do with his opinion but how he goes about trying to implement it. -DJSasso (talk) 18:53, 2 January 2012 (UTC)

User:Dolovis acted according to written policies. Policy WP:COMMONNAME directs editors to name articles by the common name in English-language sources, which he did. It was also courteous of User:Dolovis to then create redirects for the rare name with diacritics or accented letters and tag that redirect as {R from diacritics}. He implemented all in accordance with written policy. -Wikid77 14:21, 3 January 2012 (UTC)

• Strongly oppose ban: As an uninvolved editor, I think that User:Dolovis is unlikely to agree to consensus on this topic-ban, since it is founded on incorrect ideas. His opinions about diacritical marks and accented letters have been basically correct, and I would not fault him for some mistakes along the way. Some web browsers (IE7?) cannot access articles with diacritics and accented letters in titles, such as "Dominik Riečický" which becomes the name "Dominik Riecický" matching 1 webpage, rather than the WP:COMMONNAME used in most English-language sources, "Dominik Riecicky" (no accented letters), which matches over 20,700 Google hits, including www.edmontonjournal.com, www.hockeycanada.ca, news.yahoo.com, www.usahockey.com and indiatimes.com. The player's name is actually "Доминик Риецицкй Профиль" according to Eurohockey.com (web-link: [20]). Instead, I would think that User:Dolovis would agree to working on other categories of articles which need help removing the diacritical marks, to match WP:COMMONNAME spellings of words as found in many English-language sources. Also, we need to beware topic-banning people based on other people's linguistic prejudices against the English language. The fact that one WikiProject about hockey does not want to follow the English-language usage is not a reason to condemn User:Dolovis. I think this situation is another low point in the history of English Wikipedia: banning a helpful user who tries to convert foreign-word titles into common English form. -Wikid77 (talk) 18:17, 2 January 2012 (UTC)

• You realize this proposal isn't about his opinion but about his actions right? Whether he is right or wrong, its his actions that are the problem and people who behave as he has should be topic banned from the area that they are battling in and being disruptive in. And not to rehash the ever ongoing debate, but there is no consensus that commonname excludes using diacritics. In fact there is one line in commonname that actually suggests we ignore the common name if it is inaccurate, which is what people who think we should use diacritics believe is the case. -DJSasso (talk) 18:21, 2 January 2012 (UTC)

Some people might think a name is "inaccurate" but they need WP:RS sources to substantiate that unusual claim when numerous reliable sources use the spelling without accented letters. -Wikid77 14:21, 3 January 2012 (UTC)

Доминик Риецицкй is just the kyrillic version of the name. Why should his name be written in kyrillic letters when he's born in a country that simply uses the Latin alphabet? By the way... --Thomas ^✉ 18:50, 2 January 2012 (UTC)

Before this goes to far afield... IIUC diacritics are useable in titles since they are generally based off of the same Latin alphabet English uses. And as best I can tell that is because an English speaker has a fighting chance of recognizing/understanding the term/word/name. Non-Latin based writing systems - kyrillic, kanji, Norse glyphs, etc - are not used because an English speaker would be SOL. Hence "Thor" not "Þórr", "Osaka" not "大阪", "War and Peace" not "Вoйнá и мир", etc. - J Greb (talk) 19:41, 2 January 2012 (UTC)

Wikid77 states something about browsers not displaying diacritics. I've been trying to confirm this without much success. Accented letters are in character sets, including UTF-8 (which Wiki sends via headers), and ISO-8859. Not sure what Wikid77 based these claims on, but he's going to need more proof before he convinces anyone that Dolovis was acting in the best interests of users with archaic browsers. As to whether Google recognises diacritics and offers alternatives.. that's Google's problem. Wiki isn't "losing" anything if Google is failing to deliver a wider range of results – it makes no revenue from visitors.. but imo, if Wiki's search function can do it based on Javascript, Google should be able to do it with their multi-billion dollar technology. Google isn't the only search engine, and there are 5 major browsers available. It doesn't justify Dolovis' methods of making non-diacritic the primary result in many cases. I think Wikid77 is on the wrong train of thought, just because many English-speaking people only think in linear A to Z fashion, doesn't mean technology has to, and the only "low point in English Wiki" would be selfishly dismissing the written form of many nations to suit our own unambitious form. That said, I think his "strong opposition" is somewhat confused and pessimistic: WP:Hockey are not choosing to "not follow the English language". They're honouring the names of people which are native to them. The letters are not foreign just because they're accented, they're just less familiar to English speakers who don't use them – letters aren't even English. Let's not confuse "linguistic prejudice" with "helpfully converting foreign-letters", because, plain and simple, it's not a NPOV to Anglicise absolutely everything.. whether it be for English readers, crappy browsers, or sloppy search engines. Ma®©usBritish ^{[Chat • RFF]} 01:06, 3 January 2012 (UTC)

The written policy WP:COMMONNAME states to use the common name found in English-language sources, which is what User:Dolovis has done.

No, he hasn't. Noël Coward's name is Noël Coward. There is no "common name" for Noël Coward, his name is what it is. Dropping the "ë" to "e" is not "common", it is Anglicising, or simplifying due to keyboard layout. Your interpretation of commonname is false, and the contribs that have been made which follow a false premis are at question. Noel Coward is a version required to make searching easier and should redirect the correctname. And the same for all these other people, rather than the other way round, which is discriminating. Ma®©usBritish ^{[Chat • RFF]} 15:47, 3 January 2012 (UTC)

Off topic, but if you search for the diacritic version, google returns both the diacritic and plain text version of Tomáš Matoušek [21], as you'd rather expect from a truly worldwide product. Of course I use a sensible browser, but Microsoft products are still very popular throughout Europe, so I'd be surprised if their browsers wouldn't render extended Latin fonts. Elen of the Roads (talk) 01:58, 3 January 2012 (UTC)

• Support because gaming the rules is simply wrong, no matter the cause; the end does not justify the means. And that behaviour, not diacritics, is the issue here. Cheers, Lindsay^Hello 19:45, 2 January 2012 (UTC)

User:Dolovis was not gaming the rules. He created full stubs, for notable players, with article titles meeting policy WP:COMMONNAME as names used in many English-language sources, then created typical accented-letter redirects and tagged those as {R from diacritics}. -Wikid77 14:21, 3 January 2012 (UTC)

• Support - the issue of diacritics itself is irrelevant here. It's the behavior that needs to be addressed.Volunteer Marek (talk) 20:13, 2 January 2012 (UTC)
• Support the content issue, and Dolovis' attitude to it, is enough for a topic ban. The gaming of the system would be excuse for further action, such as a general block. Andy Dingley (talk) 00:43, 3 January 2012 (UTC)
• Oppose Creating stubs is not disruptive; it is quite the opposite — it is constructive. The issue of article titles is quite minor because redirects can be used for any spelling variations. Warden (talk) 00:51, 3 January 2012 (UTC)

• The issue is not the creating of stubs. The issue is the creating of stubs with Anglicized names, against the MOS guide for Wikiproject Hockey and then also creating diacritic redirects and then making an extra edit to those redirects so the stubs made cannot be moved to them. It is explicitly gaming the system so diacritic titles cannot be used. Silverseren^C 01:13, 3 January 2012 (UTC)

There wouldn't be a problem with him creating stub articles, even if he refuses to use diacritics, if he wasn't also deliberately setting out to prevent other editors from moving the article to the diacritic version and leaving the plain text behind as a redirect. Elen of the Roads (talk) 01:47, 3 January 2012 (UTC)

• It doesn't matter what the nominal title of such an article is. The name in the lead can be edited regardless and we can have any number of redirects for alternate spellings. What matters here is that someone is creating content and should not be punished for so-doing. Our MOS guidelines give priority to the first author of an article in matters of stylistic variation and this is fine because it encourages the creation of content. Bringing the matter to ANI so that a ban is imposed seems to be a worse violation of WP:GAME. A more constructive response by those who prefer a different style would be to create the articles in question first. The principle of first come, first served seems fair and in the interests of Wikipedia. Warden (talk) 11:51, 3 January 2012 (UTC)

It does matter what the nominal title of an article is. If not, the editor who first created the article on John F. Kennedy could have doomed the article to forever stay under the name Jack Kennedy, had s/he created it with that name. It's not a matter of "stylistic variation". Dolovis is not punished for creating content, but for gaming the system to have his way in wikipedia. Bans are not imposed lightly on people. As has been said here numerous times before, Dolovis is not punished for his views, but for his actions. If someone on "the other side" in this debate had done the same thing, s/he would have been punished the same way. HandsomeFella (talk) 13:14, 3 January 2012 (UTC)

In no case has any editor "doomed the article to forever stay under the name", but instead any article can be moved/renamed, and all the history-log will move to the new name, automatically re-creating the prior name as a new redirect. The actions of User:Dolovis were in line with written policies. BTW: Wikipedia should not seek to "punish" any user; instead, the focus is to protect Wikipedia from uncontrollable harm, which is clearly not the problem with User:Dolovis. -Wikid77 14:21, 3 January 2012 (UTC)

On one hand, you say "Our MOS guidelines give priority to the first author of an article in matters of stylistic variation" and "The principle of first come, first served seems fair", while on the other hand, when I give an example of what could be the consequences of having such a rule (as interpreted by you), you say that an article can still be moved! What kind of logic is that? Does the first editor decide the name of the article forever, or not? You can't have both. HandsomeFella (talk) 14:54, 3 January 2012 (UTC)

I have no dog in this fight, but if this is the problem then it is a flaw in the wiki software that should be fixed so that content from Jack Kennedy CAN be moved to John F. Kennedy, regardless of what editing has been done before. When people discover a loophole in a system or a law and exploit it, then two things can be done: 1) punish the person who found the loophole, or 2) close the loophole.

I don't know why there is such disagreement about the diacritics. When I see an article like Lucie Šafářová, then I have no problem to read it, but it discourages me from editing it because I don't have these letters on my English keyboard. In English wikipedia we should simply have the English spelling. If you go to other language wikipedia they have also changed the name according to their customs and alphabet. E.g. Séverine Brémond Beltrame becomes "Séverine Brémondová" in the Czech wp and "Бельтрам, Северин" in the Russian one. So they adapt everything to their writing, but we are supposed stick to Czech spelling in the English wp? That's not balanced no matter how you look at it. MakeSense64 (talk) 14:47, 3 January 2012 (UTC)

• Oppose, largely from the same rationale articulated by Wikid77. This is essentially a WP:V issue, wherein most reliable sources in English don't use the diacritics, and WP:NC says to use English if a clear majority of sources use a recognizably different spelling, which is the case with these NHL players. I do agree with instructing Dolovis to stop with the double-edit procedure to require admin assistance to redirect articles (which is clearly gaming the system), but I agree with his general reasoning regarding diacritics in English. And the MOS for WP:HOCKEY is not relevant; the MOS for Wikipedia takes precedence, as does the policy on article names. Horologium (talk) 14:58, 3 January 2012 (UTC)

  Again, this is not a question of for or against diacritics, it is a question of banning Dolovis for gaming the system. Had an editor on "the other side" in the debate done the same things, s/he would be banned the same way. Gaming the system is detrimental for wikipedia, whatever the motives and views. Please read the article WP:GAME. HandsomeFella (talk) 15:05, 3 January 2012 (UTC)

I have acknowledged the gaming, and support sanctioning Dolovis for that aspect of his behavior (as I explicitly stated in my statement above). However, while I don't support the behavior, I support the rationale behind it, and a review of the discussion above indicates that this is in fact a question about the use (or exclusion) of diacritics. I understand WP:GAME; I have cited it when requesting a topic ban of an editor who ran afoul of the provisions of the guideline. Horologium (talk) 16:08, 3 January 2012 (UTC)

It is not a discussion on diacritics. If Dolovis were here for violating the 3RR rule, and a ban for that was being discussed, would you oppose that ban? It would be like approving violations of the 3RR rule, a least for those who oppose diacritics. You can't possibly mean that. HandsomeFella (talk) 16:25, 3 January 2012 (UTC)

I understand that it is the behavior which sparked this discussion, not the diacritics issue, but there has been substantial cross-talk about diacritics in the topic-ban discussion. As for my support or opposition of a hypothetical topic-ban for 3RR, I can't answer a hypothetical because each case is different. I don't support this topic-ban as proposed because I feel it needs to be to narrowed in scope. I have some sympathy for those who want a broad topic ban (because I don't believe that Dolovis will substantially change his strongly-held beliefs), but I think that a total ban of any type of diacritic-related editing is overkill, particularly prohibiting the creation of new articles on notable players (as cited by Colonel Warden, above). Horologium (talk) 16:56, 3 January 2012 (UTC)

Whilst this discussion should be aiming to consider Dolovis' edits, you might be interested in Wikipedia:Naming conventions (use English)/Diacritics RfC, the outcome of which has not helped matters by defining clearer guidelines. Ma®©usBritish ^{[Chat • RFF]} 16:13, 3 January 2012 (UTC)

• Support. In the end, Dolovis was caught doing exactly what he said he would no longer do when he requested his last restriction be relaxed. This was an abuse of the community's good faith. Resolute 15:50, 3 January 2012 (UTC)
• Support as above really. No comment on the pros and cons of diacritics, just on this editor's conduct on Wikipedia. GiantSnowman 15:53, 3 January 2012 (UTC)

Question on scope of topic ban

Will Dolovis be able to help in restricting diacritics on North American based hockey articles? GoodDay (talk) 18:53, 2 January 2012 (UTC)

I believe the idea is to ban him from anything regarding diacritics at least that is what I see from what a few supporters have said. So he wouldn't be modifying anything that involved diacritics. -DJSasso (talk) 18:59, 2 January 2012 (UTC)

That's too bad. It would've been the ideal area for Dolovis' passion. Also, I wouldn't have minded the help. GoodDay (talk) 19:02, 2 January 2012 (UTC)

Why should anyone need to engage in editing that involves restricting diacritics, what encyclopedic benefit is there to following such a one-track practice except to spite languages that do use them? It is not a NPOV, it is an Anglo-centric POV, and I don't think MOS will ever change to make removal of diacritics more important than retaining them. From what I gather, more countries use diacritics, especially throughout Europe, than do not. So whether anyone likes them or not, the odds are in favour of their continued use. Removing them should not be encouraged, given that their use is not uncommon. Ma®©usBritish ^{[Chat • RFF]} 19:07, 2 January 2012 (UTC)

It's a part of WP:HOCKEY's compromise on the usage of diacritics. GoodDay (talk) 19:51, 2 January 2012 (UTC)

Yes, it's like GoodDay says. On North America-related ice hockey articles, player names with diacritics should be piped like this: [[Nicklas Lidström|Nicklas Lidstrom]]. This is to avoid unnecessary redirecting and at the same time reflect NHL's open policy of ignoring diacritics on player jerseys, NHL web pages, etc. The exception being player articles, where diacritics are to be kept. That is the compromise. HandsomeFella (talk) 20:12, 2 January 2012 (UTC)

I don't know if it's possible, and there is no strong need for that, since most editors who don't mind diacritics respect the project notice at WP:HOCKEY. And there's always you. HandsomeFella (talk) 19:01, 2 January 2012 (UTC)

• FWIW, the ban as stated looks like it would prevent:
  • Moving pages currently at diacritic titles.
  • Editing redirects currently at diacritic titles.
  • Creating pages - primarily redirects - with diacritic titles.
  • Edits that are similar in nature to the above three.

The concerns I see beyond that which it does not address are:

• Abusing RM for pages with diacritics.
• Posts as per Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/IncidentArchive734#Controversial moves.

That shouldn't prevent Dolovis from editing the text of articles. They should however be mindful of any consensus, guideline, or policy that applies to that article. Bluntly: If if a Project, consensus, or guideline states should be used in a particular article, removing them would be a bad idea.

It also should not prevent Dolovis from civily and constructively participating in discussions. The keys being "civil", "constructive", and "participate".

- J Greb (talk) 20:00, 2 January 2012 (UTC)

I hope he'll be allowed to monitor the North American based hockey articles, as I have been doing (for years). GoodDay (talk) 20:07, 2 January 2012 (UTC)

I think he will be, since most NA hockey articles don't have diacritics, with the possible exception of teams (etc) from the Quebec area, where they are French-speakers, and hte French language has several diacritical letters. HandsomeFella (talk) 20:50, 2 January 2012 (UTC)

I thought that WP:HOCKEY says that all player articles should have diacritics, but when they are mentioned on North American hockey league articles diacritics should not be used.—Ryulong (竜龙) 22:49, 2 January 2012 (UTC)

That's correct, all North American hockey leauge & team articles, shall not have'em. GoodDay (talk) 22:53, 2 January 2012 (UTC)

That seems rather idiotic. --Errant ^(chat!) 12:25, 3 January 2012 (UTC)

It seems that projects are always at liberty to mandate extra work so as to reduce article quality within their own project - rather like Wikiproject Aviation's removal of citation templates. The real mistake is to extend this outside the project, as Dolovis has been doing and GoodDay appears to be advocating, to then remove diacritics on the player name articles themselves. Andy Dingley (talk) 12:48, 3 January 2012 (UTC)

Btw...

what's this supposed to be, anyways? Sure ain't Latvian... what's the point of it? Choyoołʼįįhí:Seb az86556 ^{> haneʼ} 13:08, 2 January 2012 (UTC)

??? Don't understand the question (insufficient caffeine). Elen of the Roads (talk) 13:16, 2 January 2012 (UTC)

Looks like Dolovis made up his own diacritical version of the name. Looks more like Romanian than Latvian. At any rate, the Latvians seem to write the name entirely without diacritics, so there will be peace in our time—at least locally. Favonian (talk) 13:17, 2 January 2012 (UTC)

Yep, neither of those diacritics appear in the Latvian alphabet. The family name Siksna is written without diacritics in Latvian. Jafeluv (talk) 13:23, 2 January 2012 (UTC)

That's one of the diffs I provided at the top of this section. Dolovis's purpose with first creating a redirect, and then edit it soon after, is to make it impossible move the original article – the one that the redirect is pointing to – over the redirect without the intervention of an admin. Doing so constitutes gaming the system, and that is why Dolovis has a page move ban since some time around July/August 2011. Since he did more such edits a second time around, he no also has a week long edit block.

Śikṣṇa seems to be a Latvian hockey player. Do you think it's misspelled?

HandsomeFella (talk) 13:23, 2 January 2012 (UTC)

Edgars Siksna is without diacritics in Latvian (and English), and this redirect is entirely bogus. IMO it meets the criteria for speedy deletion (WP:CSD#R3). Favonian (talk) 13:34, 2 January 2012 (UTC)

It is bogus, completely made up. Might as well go for Édgärs Shį́kśną or whatever... Choyoołʼįįhí:Seb az86556 ^{> haneʼ} 13:38, 2 January 2012 (UTC)

Personal attacks and edit-warring

Editors involved:

• Black.jeff (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
• Niteshift36 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

There is an ongoing edit war at Talk:List of Terra Nova episodes stemming from this post by Black.jeff. Niteshift36 took exception to the post, which he sees as a personal attack. Black.jeff has made further disparaging comments such as "The statement is idiocy, that does not indicate that you are an idiot. Perhaps you think we are idiots and will believe your idiotic statement",[22] along with comparisons to racism. He refuses to remove the comments, which I suggested he do,[23] but Niteshift36 hasn't been blameless in all this, now resorting to edit summaries such as this. He doesn't believe that 3RR applies in this situation, claiming that he is protected by WP:BLP,[24] while Black.jeff is now claiming that Niteshift36's removal of the offending comments is vandalism and is claiming a 3RR exemption.[25] I'm now of the opinion that both editor's deserve a short block to allow them to cool off and all of the related comments, which have been edited since they were first added, should be removed from the talk page but, as an involved editor, it's not really appropriate for me to do that. I suspect that any attempt would also be reverted, as both editors are being rather obstinate about the whole "discussion" on my talk page.[26] I even suggested that Niteshift36 raise the matter here, but instead he and Black.jeff have continued with their edit war. --AussieLegend (talk) 02:12, 2 January 2012 (UTC)

• The complaint isn't accurate. Although I disagreed with a number of insults and attacks he made, I let those go. There is one thing still at issue and it's what Aussie Legend left out. Jeff made an allegation of racism: "So your argument basically boils down to racism..." [27]. That has been the on-going issue. I've never mentioned race. After I took exception to it, Jeff even stated on my talk page: " I know that technically it isn't racism..."[28]. After reverting my removal a couple of times, he dug up some poorly written definition from a UN project and changed his tune, claiming it was now did fit. I went so far as to tell him the proper term (cultural bias) and even inserted it in place of the incorrect and grossly offensive "racism". The allegation that my position is rooted in racism is extremely offensive to me and I will not tolerate it. Yes, I do claim BLP applies. WP:BLPTALK states: "BLP applies to all material about living persons anywhere on Wikipedia, including talk pages, edit summaries, user pages, images, and categories". I am a living person. Further, it says "Although this policy applies to posts about Wikipedians in project space...." and that is me as well. Since libelous material being removed under BLP is exempt from the 3RR, I contend this isn't a 3RR issue.

As for being uncivil etc: I won't pretend I was civil and innocent. When I get called an idiot, I tend to push back. Is it right? No, but that's not really why we are here. We are here because an editor keeps implying that I am a racist, despite the fact that he has admitted it is not correct. Niteshift36 (talk) 02:34, 2 January 2012 (UTC)

Firstly, describing your argument, is describing content, not neccessarily you. How am I meant to point out the problem with your comment (i.e. that it is racism), if pointing out problems with it constitutes a personal attack? If what you are suggesting is the case, then WP:PA would say something more along the lings of "Do not comment on contributors, additionally do not comment on the content that that contributor contributed, as that has the potential to indicate something about them, and thus may still be regarded as a personal attack."

At first, I thought it wasn't racism, as I had thought racism only applied to race, however it is still fairly similar, a race and a country that a company belongs to, with similar principles. When you suggested cultural bias, after I explained that racism was a similar term, I then went and looked up the actual definition of racism, which includes nationality. This means that racism is the correct word. Cultural bias is nothing like it. Cultural bias is not ignoring sources just because they are from a different country, it is expecting things to be the way they are in your culture. You have used a word that sounds "nicer" yet has a completely different meaning. Additionally, personal attacks clearly have nothing to do with it, as you have no problem with leaving in the comment explaining why it is racist, you just wont let me use the word racism. If I am fine to explain why it is racism, then why can't I label it racism? If pointing out that a comment is racist is not allowed, then why do you not also remove the explanation of why it is racism? It is only that one word that you are against. You also seem to be fine with what, (going by what I assume is your logic) would basically say "you are culturally biased". That statement should also be counted as a personal attack, yet, you don't think my comment with "racism" replaced with "cultural bias" is. So you clearly do not evaluate "Your argument basically boils down to x" as "You are x". So you should not take a comment saying that your argument basically boils down to racism, as meaning you are a racist. Your only problem is with me using the word racism.

I was planning on removing my comment saying that your statement was idiocy this morning, but I couldn't find the redaction template before I had to leave for work. I will find it once I have finished this and put it in.

And yes, I will admit, I was being somewhat uncivil, however as you said, when someone pushes, I tend to push back. When it is continually explained that things are separate entities and should not be treated as the same thing, yet people refuse to even acknowledge the possibility and tell people to stop quibbling and to just move on, I will get somewhat frustrated.

Finally, we are not here because someone is implying you are a racist, we are here because you seem to despise having the term "racism" applied to anything to do with you, and as such you continually vandalise a talk page.Black.jeff (talk) 06:29, 2 January 2012 (UTC)

• You spent all that time, defending something that isn't even being contested. Yes, initially I took issue with your use of "idiocy" etc, but I have left those alone for days now. The SOLE thing I have removed/replaced in that time period is "racism". Cultural bias is not offensive. If I spell "honor" in the American English and then go around replacing "honour" because I want the American spelling everywhere, that is a cultural bias. Calling it cultural bias isn't an attack. However, when you say my actions stem from racism, there is no way that isn't calling me racist. Since I never mentioned race, since Australian isn't a race and since you have already admitted that it isn't racism, you insistence on putting it back in is purely an attack. As for your claim that my refusal to agree with you about a source is "pushing you"... well, I suspect that others will disagree. Niteshift36 (talk) 15:11, 2 January 2012 (UTC)

• Just when I thought you were going to be cooperative in this, you left a lengthy new post there that added more incivility to it, as well as added some to the existing test. You refuse to act in good faith while this is under discussion. Things are becoming clear. Niteshift36 (talk) 15:15, 2 January 2012 (UTC)
• So one paragraph out of several, is spending all that time? Yes, that would be an example of cultural bias, however that is nothing like what is happening. With what you are trying to say is cultural bias, it would be just as bad as racism, and thus should still constitute a personal attack. When I admitted it wasn't racism, it was a mistake, as I wasn't sure of the correct term to use for discrimination based on nationality, however discrimination based on race is similar to that, and is covered by some definitions of racism, including the UN definition. When I put it back before I knew that racism covered nationality, it was because it was the closest term I knew, and what I thought it was is still very similar. Isn't describing it as racism still just as bad as saying it is racism? So wouldn't describing your comment as racism be just as bad, yet you are fine with that, it is only when I apply the label to it that it becomes bad.

• Amazing how you worry so much that "cultural bias" would appear to be an attack, despite the fact that I have said I wouldn't perceive it as such, yet insist on incorrectly using a term that I have been very clear is an attack. Your "concern" appears pretty hollow. Niteshift36 (talk) 14:32, 3 January 2012 (UTC)

No, it isn't your refusal to agree with me about a source, it is you continually dismissing what other people say, without responding to other than re-asserting your opinion, accusing them of wanting to quibble and that they should just move on.

As for good faith, what part of good faith requires that I do not remove a section of my comment, added by you, changing my comment, with no indication that it has been changed other than the edit summary, which would make me look like an idiot, for using a term that is so incorrect it isn't funny? What part of good faith requires that I don't add a comment to the page? As for incivility, where? I had not been uncivil on that page after you started vandalising my post.Black.jeff (talk) 06:01, 3 January 2012 (UTC)

"I couldn't find the redaction template before I had to leave for work" - You've quoted WP:TPO a number of times in the discussion at Talk:List of Terra Nova episodes. Instructions on what to do to redact your comments immediately follow that section. You don't actually need a template. --AussieLegend (talk) 11:33, 2 January 2012 (UTC)

However I wanted to use the template, if I had realised just how little time I had before I had to leave I would have just fixed it like I have now.Black.jeff (talk) 06:01, 3 January 2012 (UTC)

Could you both agree to stop trying to edit one another's comments as they already exist on the talk page, and then try to use your very best manners in discussion with each other from here forward? Because that would effortlessly solve the problem. Nothing that you're arguing about at this point, as far as I can see, will actually result in any improvement to the encyclopedia even if resolved, so it's pure disruption.-FisherQueen (talk · contribs) 11:37, 2 January 2012 (UTC)

Firstly, I would just like to say that I haven't edited anyone's comments other than my own, I would never do that, even if it is a blatant personal attack against me (in which case I would respond explaining why they are wrong, or just ignore it). However, I will stop bothering to restore my comment to what it was, as it achieves nothing. I will also try my best to remain civil.Black.jeff (talk) 06:01, 3 January 2012 (UTC)

I stopped editing all but a single word. I've left the rest of his incivility intact (and even answered it with uncivil remarks at times). This is solely about his improper use of "racism". I will work most things out, but Jimbo Wales himself can come to my house and ask me personally to allow that word to be used to describe me and I won't agree to it. It is vile. It is disgusting. I will not tolerate it and nobody should suggest that I should. Niteshift36 (talk) 15:11, 2 January 2012 (UTC)

Regardless or what is or is not said about you, you should not indulge in tit-for-tat incivility. - The Bushranger _{One ping only} 15:21, 2 January 2012 (UTC)

• Again, past the rest and ignoring it. Racism, however, is not something I will tolerate. Wikilink all the policies, guidelines and essays you want. The fact that an unfounded allegation that disgusting isn't immediately condemned is very disconcerting. Niteshift36 (talk) 16:00, 2 January 2012 (UTC)

• What "racism"? The English "race" vs. the American "race"? (And he's calling someone else "idiotic"???) ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 16:18, 2 January 2012 (UTC)

What does one do when

Resolved

A new user keeps adding huge images to an article which has about twenty lines in it? See Matías Di Gregorio Darkness Shines (talk) 06:49, 2 January 2012 (UTC)

Not a matter for ANI. I'll keep an eye on it. On a different note, you are a bit too liberal with the "vandalism"-button. Choyoołʼįįhí:Seb az86556 ^{> haneʼ} 06:55, 2 January 2012 (UTC)

Thanks, hit the wrong one, was going for rollback. Sorry about that. Darkness Shines (talk) 07:02, 2 January 2012 (UTC)

It certainly is a matter for AN/I if a user is being disruptive and edit warring which this user clearly seems to be doing.--Crossmr (talk) 08:01, 2 January 2012 (UTC)

No, not at all. I only posted here as I was unsure were else I should ) The guy is new and obviously a fan, I figured if a few users let him know what he ought not do then he would perhaps listen. I think it has worked. Darkness Shines (talk) 08:06, 2 January 2012 (UTC)

Well it looks like the user in question reverted you 3 times, that's the line for edit warring. A user behaving like that is certainly an issue for AN/I, and I have no idea why Seb is claiming otherwise.--Crossmr (talk) 12:22, 2 January 2012 (UTC)

Because that would be an issue for WP:AN/EW, I believe? - The Bushranger _{One ping only} 15:18, 2 January 2012 (UTC)

MyMoloboaccount

I'm currently engaged in a dispute with User:Volunteer Marek and suggested to ask for a WP:3O to solve the ongoing discussion[29]. 5 minutes after I made the suggestion to ask for a third opinion User:MyMoloboaccount appeared for the first time and made a short comment[30]. As the dispute remained a discussion between Volunteer Marek and me, I continued and started a 3O request. Molobo immediately followed me up [31] and pointed out that there are more than just two editors engaged in the dispute (the third one is him), thus the 3O request was declined. MyMoloboaccount, who has a long tradition of coordinated editing with Volunteer Marek (formerly User:Radeksz), obviously joint the discussion on purpose, immediately after a 3O request was mentioned, to disrupt the request and a fast adjustment. MyMoloboaccount's support of Marek's version also circumvented WP:3RR, their cooperative editing ensured the implementation of "their" version. HerkusMonte (talk) 17:17, 2 January 2012 (UTC)

I added my view way earlier than any request by Herkus for 30, also I commented and edited on that issue already on 3rd December 2011 so I am certainly not foreign to the topic discussed[32].obviously joint the discussion on purpose, immediately after a 3O request was mentioned, to disrupt the request A very striking show of bad faith, especially since I edited the article and the issue months before. --MyMoloboaccount (talk) 17:52, 2 January 2012 (UTC)

As the dispute remained a discussion between Volunteer Marek and me This is incorrect. These two edits show that dispute was already in place before in December

• [33]
• [34]

So I was engaged in this already and commented as soon as I could, when it came to the main discussion page.--MyMoloboaccount (talk) 17:59, 2 January 2012 (UTC)

(ec)

• User:MyMoloboaccount appeared for the first time - not true. Even a cursory look at the talk page shows that MMA was quite active on the article's talk page before.
• MyMoloboaccount, who has along tradition of coordinated editing with Volunteer Marek - false, unsubstantiated accusation. The link provided by HM shows nothing of the kind. This is a kind of baseless attack that should invite a WP:BOOMERANG.
• to disrupt the request - there was nothing disruptive here. It looks like the rationale was agreed with by a person at 3O: [35].
• MMA noted his disagreement with HM, before [36] (15:55) HM filed the 3O request (16:05).
• MyMoloboaccount's support of Marek's version also circumvented WP:3RR - bullshit, pretty much outright lying. There was no 3RR here. At best, even if you count our reverts as that of one person, that'd be two reverts on Jan 2. One by me. One by MMA - noting his disagreement with HM, per WP:BOLD. If HM honestly thinks this was a 3RR violation, then take it to 3RR board. Otherwise, stop making stuff up.
• their cooperative editing ensured the implementation of "their" version - there was no "cooperative editing" here. Evidence? It's an article that both of us have edited before. We happen to agree on an issue. HM doesn't like this. So he's making groundless accusations.

This is exactly the kind of bad-faithed request which blatantly misrepresents a situation that WP:BOOMERANG was written for.

Volunteer Marek (talk) 18:00, 2 January 2012 (UTC)

MMA was not involved in the current dispute before I suggested a 3O request, he appeared 5 minutes after and "torpedoed" the request within minutes.

MMA and VM are not trying to resolve the dispute but to find a way to push their version

To push opponents into 3RR was a proven method of the WP:EEML ("circumvent" is an imprecise term for that, sorry)

I don't think VM is seriously denying his and MMA's membership in the EEML, the underlying battleground mentality seems to reappear here.

It's hard to assume good faith facing such a way to deal with "opponents". HerkusMonte (talk) 18:56, 2 January 2012 (UTC)

MMA and VM are not trying to resolve the dispute but to find a way to push their version - again, plainly false. Need I point out that *I* am the one who had to initiate talk page discussion on this topic [37], after you started going through and reverting my edits across several articles without so much as an explanation (except perhaps the insulting "POVpushing"[38])? It really takes some gall for someone who doesn't even bother to discuss issues on talk unless forced to do so to accuse others of not wanting to "resolve the dispute".

I don't think VM is seriously denying ... blah blah blah. Crying "witch", poisoning the well, and trying to smear editors one has a content disagreement with is a time honored tactic of bad faithed pov pushers everywhere. The underlying battleground mentality is the one that is still trying to win some battle from three or four years ago Herkus.

Volunteer Marek (talk) 19:16, 2 January 2012 (UTC)

MMA was not involved in the current dispute before Again incorrect Herkus.

• [39]Revision as of 16:31, 3 December 2011 MyMoloboaccount (minor, Poles were missing in the description]-- So I already pointed out this issue on 3rd December 2011, as to the rest that's a whole lot of baseless bad faith attacks.MyMoloboaccount (talk) 19:06, 2 January 2012 (UTC)

A single edit a month ago is not part of the current discussion. HerkusMonte (talk) 19:12, 2 January 2012 (UTC)

This is the same issue, same topic, same edit discussed. It concerns the same subject and the same debate. So sorry but it completely discredits your bad faith accusations that I "suddenly" came to the discussion. I was interested in this issue for a long time--MyMoloboaccount (talk) 19:48, 2 January 2012 (UTC)

Personal attacks by User:ChristianHistory against me, User:R-41

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section. A summary of the conclusions reached follows.

ChristianHistory blocked indefinitely by MastCell. See sections below about a consensus on a topic ban that would have to be taken into consideration if an unblock is requested. NW (Talk) 00:25, 3 January 2012 (UTC)

---

User:ChristianHistory has engaged in slanderous personal attacks against me, including accusing me of being racist without evidence, launched an ad hominem attack against me that called me a "lover of lies", and has insinuated that I am part of a "conspiracy" of anti-fascists intending to discredit fascism. See the "January 2012" section of the talk page for this: [40]. User:Rivertorch told ChristianHistory that he/she was engaged in personal attacks against me, before I was alerted by Rivertorch about ChristianHistory's personal attacks. Now ChristianHistory will respond that I have been slanderous to him, saying that I am accusing him of being anti-Semitic and a neo-Nazi. This is based on a discussion on the Talk:Fascism#Secondary_sources article where ChristianHistory accused the article of being biased in favour of allegedly "unreliable" Jewish, American, and British scholars, and stated that there was a Jewish and anti-fascist conspiracy to discredit fascism, I assumed that he may have been a neo-Nazi or anti-Semitic fascist attempting to force a change in the article involving removal of Jewish, or allegedly "anti-fascist" sources. Many users on the Fascism talk page held a similar view on ChristianHistory and condemned her/his propositions as being prejudiced, to which ChristianHistory refused to partake in cooperative discussion and responded in bellicose aggressive manner to them. I entered the discussion by stating that ChristianHistory was not being cooperative to other users, was promoting the removal of Jewish, British, and American scholars' information based on a prejudiced and xenophobic view of them as being automatically "unreliable" sources based on their culture. I stated that further discussion with ChristianHistory was pointless and that the section should be considered as a soapbox, as ChristianHistory refused to listen to the criticisms of other users and was determined to force the issue on the article. ChristianHistory accusing me of being racist with no evidence, being a "lover of lies", and being part of a conspiracy is very slanderous, and he/she was warned previously by Rivertorch not to proceed in this manner, I suggest that disciplinary action be taken by Wikipedia administrators on ChristianHistory for her/his blatant violation of Wikipedia's policy of opposition to personal attacks.--R-41 (talk) 18:09, 2 January 2012 (UTC)

I don't have time for a long winded argument. R-41 has already taken up much of my day. Any honest person can see R-41 doesn't care to follow the NPA guidelines he pretends to uphold. According to him, anyone who challenges unsourced, unfounded, and contradictory claims is an "anti-Semitic neo-Nazi". --ChristianHistory (talk) 18:22, 2 January 2012 (UTC)

ChristianHistory, given that you started the relevant talk page section with an implication that someone being Jewish was sufficient grounds to discount their material as "propaganda and nonsense" [41], I'd say that suggestions that you are an antisemite are entirely reasonable. AndyTheGrump (talk) 18:30, 2 January 2012 (UTC)

I don't hold Jews to be a "race", so I don't know how I can be "anti-Semitic". Besides Arabs, Lebanese, Syrians, etc. are Semites, so what does Semitism have to do with anything? --ChristianHistory (talk) 18:35, 2 January 2012 (UTC)

Apparently you don't know what anti-Semitism is. We have an article about it. Sean.hoyland - talk 18:40, 2 January 2012 (UTC)

(edit conflict)To Andy, and if not that, the bit "there is way too much reliance on secondary sources" is pretty much totally ignorant of the WP:PSTS section of WP:NOR. To ChristianHistory, dismissing the difference in culture as "not a race" is not a defence against a charge of antisemitism. There's cultural antisemitism, religious antisemitism, political antisemitism... Racial antisemitism is only one type. Indeed, cultural antisemitism denies that Jews have a race, and accuse their religion and culture of being problems. Many of these individuals try to disprove any genetic distinction between Jews and Gentiles, (which is a recurring problem at Talk:Khazars) to try to argue they should adhere to Gentile culture. In your defense, though, you also unreasonably dismiss American and British sources here on the English language Wikipedia. Ian.thomson (talk) 18:47, 2 January 2012 (UTC)

So basically if Jews are a race, then I'm a racist. And if Jews aren't a race, I'm still a racist. That's so convenient, isn't it? The whole "anti-Semitic neo-Nazi" label is just a bunch of crap used to silence discussion and weed out those who dare to oppose the majority of editors on clearly slanted propaganda pieces that is the article on Fascism. See my talk page for responses to the other accusations. --ChristianHistory (talk) 18:51, 2 January 2012 (UTC)

No, acknowledging genetic differences between Jews and Gentiles doesn't make one a racist, and acknowledging that Jews are part of the same species as Gentiles doesn't make make one a racist, both statements are true. It's when one goes to extremes with either position (saying that Jews are seperate from humanity, or saying that Jews shouldn't be different than anyone else) that it becomes a problem. Implying that Jewish sources are invalid just because they're Jewish leans towards the "saying Jews shouldn't be different" position. Also, you have not responded to the point that your call to drop "unreliable" American, British, and Jewish sources and instead use sources by first hand fascist propaganda goes completely against WP:NOR. Ian.thomson (talk) 18:57, 2 January 2012 (UTC)

I understand that users are addressing the issue of claims of anti-Semitism here involving her/his extremely controversial proposal on the Talk:Fascism article to discount sources written by Jewish, British, and American scholars. But please, let's get back to the point of ChristianHistory's personal attacks, he/she has called me a racist with no evidence, launched an ad hominem attack against me that I am a "lover of lies", and the insinuation that I am part of an anti-fascist "conspiracy".--R-41 (talk) 19:04, 2 January 2012 (UTC)

Yeah, that stuff's unacceptable too. Actually, given the nature of Fascism, I'd venture to say that being pro-fascist would be the aberrant position, and being "anti-fascist" would be neutral. That, the call to replace reliable sourcess (because they don't support Hitler and Mussolini) with original research based on fascist sources, and the personal attacks all add up to a problematic editor. I'm inclined to suggest a topic and interaction ban, thought I don't have the wording for it yet. Ian.thomson (talk) 19:08, 2 January 2012 (UTC)

I lost my response again because apparently R-41 doesn't know how to proof-read anything he/she/it writes and has to keep editing his/her/its responses over and over again. And point proven with Ian's last response -- this has nothing to do with attacks, and everything to do with politics and POV. --ChristianHistory (talk) 19:11, 2 January 2012 (UTC)

I think there are two issues: 1) The antisemitic comments, which include both the proposal that sources written by Jewish authors cannot be used as secondary sources for the Fascism article, as well as other veiled comments ("I think what we have is more of a confirmatory and Ingroup bias on the part of certain people. You're a smart guy, I'm sure you'll figure out who eventually."), and 2) the personal attack made against R-41 here immediately after being warned not to do so. Singularity42 (talk) 19:12, 2 January 2012 (UTC)

And now Singularity decides to join in the lying too. And yes, I say lying since you were on my talk page and have read it, so you know better. --ChristianHistory (talk) 19:19, 2 January 2012 (UTC)

I identified the two issues that have been raised in this thread. In any event, I specifically linked to the diffs in question. Where exactly have I "lied"? Singularity42 (talk) 19:24, 2 January 2012 (UTC)

(edit conflict × 2)No, ChristianHistory, you calling him a racist for having a problem with Nazis is a serious problem. R-41 called for the exclusion of fascist propaganda, which is in line with WP:NPOV (and indirectly with WP:NOR). You have been calling for the exclusion of British, American, and Jewish sources because of their heritage. That's racist. If R-41 had said "no German or Italian sources" that would be a problem, but he didn't say that. If you had said "no Communist sources," that wouldn't be racist. But you said "British, American, and Jewish" sources, which excludes them based on their heritage, not their politics.

Also, I'd like to propose a topic ban: It seems that it would be best if ChristianHistorian stay away from articles pertaining to Fascism, and should probably avoid topics relating to Jews and Judaism as well. Given his focus on hagiography, I wouldn't suggest blocking him from that, so by "relating to Judaism," I mean directly related to the Jewish religion, people, or culture, except in areas which overlap with Christianity (which may be edited provided the edits affect the Christian content of the article).

EDIT: This is just a minimum proposal. Expanding to "banned from all modern political topics" would be another option. Ian.thomson (talk) 19:29, 2 January 2012 (UTC)

• Beyond antisemitism, which is obvious, this diff displays some critical misunderstandings of our sourcing requirements, especially WP:PRIMARY. If ChristianHistory wants to take other people's opinions into account then I'd oppose a topic ban, but if he goes on arguing then there might not be any other option. An anti-semite can edit Wikipedia constructively, but saying that any source written by a Jew is unreliable is not going to get off the ground here. (It's painful that I have to say that in 2011 2012.) causa sui (talk) 19:32, 2 January 2012 (UTC)

psst, happy new year, causa sui. Cheers, Lindsay^Hello 21:02, 2 January 2012 (UTC)

Singularity, you reiterate the lie when you say that I wanted all Jewish, British, and American sources removed -- see my talk page (again). Ian: 'Jewish', 'British', and 'American' is not a race so how can it be "racism"? See my talk page. And you know what, I'm getting really tired of this FALSE, CALUMNIATING "anti-Semitism" label. I propose every one of you be banned. --ChristianHistory (talk) 19:35, 2 January 2012 (UTC)

You're implying that they should be excluded because of their heritage. From the Racism article: "Racism" and "racial discrimination" are often used to describe discrimination on an ethnic or cultural basis, independent of their somatic (i.e. "racial") differences. According to the United Nations conventions, there is no distinction between the term racial discrimination and ethnicity discrimination.

I have seen your talk page. You are implying they should be exclude because of what culture were born in, instead of what political views they adopted later in life. If you weren't, there would have been no point in mentioning the nationality of the authors. Ian.thomson (talk) 19:41, 2 January 2012 (UTC)

Now ChristianHistory has accused User:Singularity42 of lying. As everyone can now see, ChristianHistory is totally out of control, he/she is slandering anyone who is in disagreement with her/him as liars. This is complete contempt for Wikipedia's guidelines - especially for ChristianHistory to have the audacity to make a personal attack against a user investigating personal attacks made by ChristianHistory against another (me, R-41). I support that ChristianHistory be completely banned from Wikipedia, he/she has no intention of upholding Wikipedia guidelines at all.--R-41 (talk) 19:34, 2 January 2012 (UTC)

I should point out, as the one accused of "lying" by ChristianHistory, I would nonetheless not be in support of such a drastic move. I'm more inclined to support a limited topic ban along the lines of what is being proposed, as well as perhaps a "one strike" rule for further personal attacks. Singularity42 (talk) 19:37, 2 January 2012 (UTC)

Look just a few sections above this, one minute after I posted that ChristianHistory has accused Singularity42 of lying, now ChristianHistory is saying: "I propose every one of you be banned". ChristianHistory is totally out of control and is slandering everyone who has disagreed with her/him. ChristianHistory has used up his strikes, he has attacked "every one" who disagrees with him. I urge administrators to completely ban ChristianHistory from Wikipedia and that he/she not be permitted to return to Wikipedia - he has completely and utterly defiled Wikipedia guidelines.--R-41 (talk) 19:40, 2 January 2012 (UTC)

Why? He's behaving inappropriately but he's not posing any kind of imminent danger. It's too soon for a full ban and doing it now would just be punitive. Let's make some effort shall we? causa sui (talk) 19:43, 2 January 2012 (UTC)

He just removed this that I criticized him for adding minutes ago to cover up evidence that he is slandering many people, this is what he said:

"Singularity, you reiterate the lie when you say that I wanted all Jewish, British, and American sources removed -- see my talk page (again). Ian: 'Jewish', 'British', and 'American' is not a race so how can it be "racism"? See my talk page. And you know what, I'm getting really tired of this FALSE, CALUMNIATING "anti-Semitism" label. I propose every one of you be banned. --ChristianHistory (talk) 19:35, 2 January 2012 (UTC)"

My mistake, another user added a section below it, I lost track of where it was, it is still there, my mistake.--R-41 (talk) 19:46, 2 January 2012 (UTC)

I didn't delete that from here, check the history. R-41's agenda is purely political. At least I'm straightforward. R-41 is acting like a deceitful politician, with pretended outrage to get me booted. He just sees me as a "threat" to Wikipedia, like I'm a big bad Nazi out to devour him and all Wikipedia content. --ChristianHistory (talk) 19:49, 2 January 2012 (UTC)

I just said above your statement that I made a mistake, you are correct, you did not remove it. But you are in no position to criticize me for ill intention, you have just stated "I propose every one of you be banned" and you have ignored the multiple statements in this section by users. You have shown complete contempt towards every user in this discussion.--R-41 (talk) 19:54, 2 January 2012 (UTC)

To ChristianHistory: I fail to see how I misrepresnted what you proposed. Throughout Talk:Fascism#Secondary sources, you stated that post-war Jewish, American, and British acholars are not reliable for the topic of Fascism.

To Ian.thomson: I think your original topic ban is in the right track. The alternative "all modern political topics" seems to broadly worded for what we're dealing with here. I would also suggest a "one-strike" rule for future personal attacks. Singularity42 (talk) 19:52, 2 January 2012 (UTC)

• On another point, I think ChristianHistory's comments on DIREKTOR's talkpage are quite inappropriate. We need less of that. If there's been any initial baiting which leads ChristianHistory to such comments, then the baiting would be inappropriate too, but I didn't see any in my brief glance round... bobrayner (talk) 19:54, 2 January 2012 (UTC)

I agree with Singularity. ChristianHistory definitely isn't responding well to counseling and the disruption is severe enough that we shouldn't let it continue. Is it time for a straw poll now? causa sui (talk) 19:55, 2 January 2012 (UTC)

Ok then. I'm assuming "one-strike" means "block for any future attacks," and not "given one warning for future attacks and then blocked." Ian.thomson (talk) 20:03, 2 January 2012 (UTC)

Very well, I will agree with Singularity 42's proposal for a topic ban and "one-strike" rule. As I am the person who brought forward the issue, I don't think a vote by me would count, nor should count - I leave it up to you, but I am just stating that I support Singularity42's proposal.--R-41 (talk) 20:05, 2 January 2012 (UTC)

Wikipedia editors are not necessary for "discrediting" fascism - Hitler and Musollini did a pretty good job of doing that, all by themselves. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 20:16, 2 January 2012 (UTC)

Could there be a clarification of what articles "related to Fascism" implies? Just so it is clearly known what this means.--R-41 (talk) 20:32, 2 January 2012 (UTC)

I guess I meant: at large, fascist governments in theory or practice, and their advocates, critics, practitioners, opposers, or victims; except the people are notable for other issues (e.g. Pope John Paul II), provided the content is not related to fascism, and the legacies of the previously mentioned. Ian.thomson (talk) 20:43, 2 January 2012 (UTC)

It's worse than that. He shouldn't be editing anything connected with religion or politics. If he wants to edit articles about basket-weaving, that might be safe. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 20:46, 2 January 2012 (UTC)

I mostly agree (I hsve not been shown evidence he should be banned from articles on hagiographies where Jews are not mentioned), I don't think that's as likely to get through. Ian.thomson (talk) 20:49, 2 January 2012 (UTC)

Since he's now indef'd as a probable sock, we likely don't need to worry about a topic ban. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 00:27, 3 January 2012 (UTC)

• Apparently I'm involved in this, since it spilled over onto my talk page. While a topic ban for ChristianHistory might be helpful in theory, I'm concerned that it wouldn't solve anything. ChristianHistory began editing under that username less than two weeks ago but claims to have "been here for over four years" and clearly has a working knowledge of WP. Whether he or she was editing as an IP or under a different account, I have no idea. Taking AGF to extremes, the best I can assume is gross incompetence; otherwise, he or she appears to be abusing multiple accounts or being deliberately disruptive or both. Clearly, he or she has an agenda that is at odds with our core policies, and close watching is warranted. Rivertorch (talk) 20:55, 2 January 2012 (UTC)

Couldn't the IP address of ChristianHistory be checked to see if he/she has abused multiple accounts (a.k.a. sockpuppetry).--R-41 (talk) 21:01, 2 January 2012 (UTC)

To Rivertorch: Hm... yeah, that is concerning. If anyone knows of a previous user whose behavior resembles his, it'd be nice to know. He tends to hang in areas I'm not usually present in, so I couldn't recognize any MO if I looked.

To R-41: From my understanding of the SPI guidelines, we need more evidence, like similar behavior with another account. Ian.thomson (talk) 21:06, 2 January 2012 (UTC)

I understand this. An investigation of banned users who have participated in the same material edited by ChristianHistory would likely determine if ChristianHistory is abusing multiple accounts. Typically a banned user who abuses accounts will open a new account shortly after one has been banned, so perhaps an investigation of recently banned users partaking in editing of similar material as ChristianHistory has.--R-41 (talk) 21:15, 2 January 2012 (UTC)

Proposed topic ban for ChristianHistory

ChristianHistory may no longer edit articles relating to Fascism, and may not edit any articles concerning the Jewish people, culture, or religion, except where such articles overlap with non-Jewish content and then only to edit the non-Jewish content. Furthermore, he is under a "one-strike" rule on any future personal attacks, and will be blocked if he makes any more. EDIT: "relating to fascism" refers to articles at large which concern fascist governments in theory or practice, their advocates, critics, practitioners, opposers, or victims; except the people are notable for other issues (e.g. Pope John Paul II), provided the content is not related to fascism; as well as the legacy of the previously mentioned. Ian.thomson (talk) 20:43, 2 January 2012 (UTC)

• Support - Given his inability to accept that he has made attacks against other editors, his call to violate WP:NOR on Fascism, and his inability to respect Jews; some action is needed, but given that he is otherwise useful a complete community ban is not needed. Hopefully, I should not need to have said "not needed yet." Ian.thomson (talk) 20:03, 2 January 2012 (UTC)
• Support - The editor clearly has no business editing anything remotely connected with religion or politics. His attitude also shames his user ID, but that's another story. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 20:22, 2 January 2012 (UTC)
• Support - doesn't even accept that he has done wrong, let alone that he will change his ways. GiantSnowman 20:24, 2 January 2012 (UTC)
• Support Obviously needed causa sui (talk) 20:26, 2 January 2012 (UTC)
• Support - as the minimum necessary. AndyTheGrump (talk) 20:39, 2 January 2012 (UTC)
• Support - for the reasons already given -- Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 20:40, 2 January 2012 (UTC)
• Support but am dubious it will work, per my comment above. Rivertorch (talk) 20:55, 2 January 2012 (UTC)
• Support. I'm dubious that it will have any benefit as I think this guy is clearly on a crusade, but this is the first step to putting an end to this, and put an end to it we must. This is disgraceful behaviour. Basalisk ^{inspect damage}⁄_berate 21:08, 2 January 2012 (UTC)
• Support, but also urge calmness from all: ChristianHistory is out of control but not "totally." There are no grounds to institute a sock-puppet investigation. Yopienso (talk) 21:11, 2 January 2012 (UTC)
• Support though I agree with others that this may be a temporary solution before more drastic measures are needed. Yopienso thank your for removing the bolding as it is not needed and often leads to the opposite of what is being demanded. CH own words are why a sockpuppet investigation may be necessary. Though, I fear, it will be hard to find any one editor who this might be. This kind of editing goes back at least as far as User:Fourdee if not further and is a mind set about what is and isn't racism/hatred etc. MarnetteD | Talk 21:19, 2 January 2012 (UTC) My bolding was a typo--accidental double instead of single quotes after "Support." Yopienso (talk) 23:28, 2 January 2012 (UTC)
• Support. Oblivious. Labeling Singularity42/Direktor indicates trouble with issues. Glrx (talk) 21:47, 2 January 2012 (UTC)
• Support per nom - we cannot allow such behavior to disrupt the project. Beyond My Ken (talk) 21:52, 2 January 2012 (UTC)

Blocked

• Let's cut this short. I've indefinitely blocked ChristianHistory (talk · contribs). First of all, this editor claims to have been editing for four years, using various other accounts. If that's the case, then his abject disregard for this site's content and sourcing policies is likely intractable. On top of that, in this account's short history it's provided a laundry list of virtually every sort of behavior that Wikipedia needs less of.

  Personally, the combativeness, soapboxing, and agenda (that Mussolini, Hitler, and fascism are "misunderstood") are strongly reminiscent of Billy Ego (talk · contribs), a prolific sockpuppeteer banned for, among other things, his incessant pro-fascist advocacy. The Billy Ego accounts are likely way too stale for a checkuser, and I think the point is largely academic since there are ample grounds for a block in this account's edits, even taken in isolation.

  If another admin wishes to unblock ChristianHistory, then they have my permission so long as the terms of the unblock include the topic ban described above. But I really think we've already spent enough time on this. It's clear this editor is here for the wrong reasons, and if he hasn't learned in 4 years (and is continuing to create new accounts to troll others on the basis of his political and racial viewpoints), then he's never going to learn. MastCell ^Talk 00:10, 3 January 2012 (UTC)

• Good block. I'm going to close this; I don't think we need to waste any additional discussion time on it. NW (Talk) 00:25, 3 January 2012 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Personal attacks by Darkness Shines after warning at ANI

Resolved

Magog the Ogre (talk) 18:46, 2 January 2012 (UTC)

Personal attacks by User:Darkness Shines are escalating even more after he was warned at Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/IncidentArchive733#Personal attacks from IP editor for the same. I reported him for his edit war on multiple pages which got protected as a result and also told an administrator about the report, who was previously called in for intervention on one of the articles and was keeping a check on the content dispute. Now this personal attack he very recently made on me at another user's talk page is out right blatant [42]. How much more for enough? (Note that this report is strictly for personal attacks lest all the disputed content start spilling here). --lTopGunl (talk) 18:34, 2 January 2012 (UTC)

TG, go have a nice cup of tea, I believe the stress is getting to you. Cheerio. Darkness Shines (talk) 18:37, 2 January 2012 (UTC)

The next person who makes a personal attack, who goads another editor, who hounds another editor's contributions, or generally acts distuptively in this dispute will be blocked. I really mean it. I'm getting sick of people acting like 12 year olds. Magog the Ogre (talk) 18:46, 2 January 2012 (UTC)

Having seen the efforts made by Magog the Ogre on this long-running dispute about topics involving Pakistan and India, I suggest that other admins may want to support his efforts. With some frustration I closed a 3RR case recently involving some of these editors. Because so many people were behaving badly and not waiting for consensus, no blocks seemed logical at that time. In the future, persistent warring and bad behavior across a range of articles is certainly worth taking admin action on, and I hope that Magog will advise on what further measures he thinks advisable. Already one of the editors involved, User:JCAla, has requested that Magog disqualify himself from further admin action regarding him. In my view JCAla should get extra credit for chutzpah. A set of community topic bans for all the editors involved in the recent 3RR report is one of the options to consider for the future. EdJohnston (talk) 18:59, 2 January 2012 (UTC)

I have a proposal for atleast one article which is the main point of contention: Talk:Taliban#Consensus by community to enforce 1RR on this article. --lTopGunl (talk) 19:20, 2 January 2012 (UTC)

Unacceptable POV pushing by User:Plot Spoiler

Before any edit war starts, that can get me banned, I wish to seek involvement of administrators in what I see as a serious issue of bias and double standards on such an unacceptable level, by a user named Plot Spoiler, who, BTW, is in violation of the 3RR with this edit. The dispute evolves around a raid carried out by Iraqi security forces against the Mujahedin-e Khalq terrorist group. Referring to a raid by American, British, French, or Israeli forces against a group such as al-Qaeda, the Taliban or Hamas, in which only members of this terrorist organisation were killed, as a "massacre" or a "mass-muder" would be completely unacceptable (and I there is not one example of such labeling in Wikipedia) and thus the same standards should be applied to a terrorist group that targets Iranians and Iraqis. He also insists on removing the sourced fact that the group is designated as a terrorist organisation by Iran, Iraq and the United States from the beginning of the article, and as I said, he is in violantion of the 3RR. Looking at the category page "Category:Mass murder in 2011" you can also see that the articles listed are soley terrorist attacks/bombings or random civilian shootings, not a single article about a government raid against a militant/insurgent group is listed in there and if we look at "Category:Massacres in Iraq," we can see the Iraqi security forces raid against the terrorist camp is equally out of place. It is clear the user in question will not compromise or let necessary edits be done and therefore I will not touch the article as to prevent and edit war, and instead call on administrators need to intervene.Kermanshahi (talk) 19:24, 2 January 2012 (UTC)

OP is forum shopping. Oh, and I have notified the user about these threads. GiantSnowman 20:34, 2 January 2012 (UTC)

I didn't know exactly what was the right forum to post it. This one or the general one?Kermanshahi (talk) 20:36, 2 January 2012 (UTC)

I've closed the Kermanshahi's 3RR complaint against Plot Spoiler with a warning to both parties. Kermanshahi should be aware that forum shopping won't win any more support for his case (going to 3RR + AN + ANI). The steps of dispute resolution are open to you. If you want to try opening an WP:RFC to get more opinions let me know if you need any assistance. EdJohnston (talk) 23:32, 2 January 2012 (UTC)

Today's Internet death rumour is Fidel Castro

His death is suddenly trending on Twitter, but it seems to be nothing but an Internet rumour at this point. The last time we had an Internet rumour on NYE - Robert Plant in that case - semi-protection wasn't adequate to protect the article (autoconfirmed editors were the culprits), so I'd ask people who hang around here to keep an eye on Fidel Castro before an actual incident report needs to be filed. (I know this isn't an incident yet, but it's a heavily watched board so it seemed the right place.) --NellieBly (talk) 00:19, 3 January 2012 (UTC)

Thankfully, the page is already semiprotected, so there likely won't be as much vandalism as there would be without anything at all. Nyttend (talk) 00:43, 3 January 2012 (UTC)

Well, it's not exactly vandalism; it's disruptive, but the editors are adding the information in good faith. They're just so intent on being first that they forget the consequences of being first with the wrong information. --NellieBly (talk) 00:48, 3 January 2012 (UTC)

Secondary rumor: It may be related to a computer virus.
⋙–Berean–Hunter—► 01:03, 3 January 2012 (UTC)

More harassment by user:JesseRafe

Previous ANI discussion

I recently reported user:JesseRafe here for wikistalking me, after he followed me around reverting my edits and referring to them as vandalism in his edit summaries. It was explained to him during the original discussion here that edits are not vandalism simply because he does not like them. I also posted a notice to his page about accusing other editors of vandalism without good cause. Now, he has gone to the talk pages of 5 different editors (so far) and told them individually that I am a vandal and to keep an eye on the page in dispute (presumably so he can circumvent 3rr by having others undo my edits for him, by misleading them into believing that I am a vandal). This is clearly harassment.

The original notice I posted to his page about not calling constructive editors vandals: [43]

The original complaint about his harassing behaviour: [44]

His recent edits to users talk pages telling them that I am vandalising a page they have contributed to: [45] [46] [47] [48] [49]. 89.100.150.198 (talk) 00:26, 3 January 2012 (UTC)

Based on closing comments at previous discussion and Jesse's subsequent behavior, in my view, a block is warranted.--Bbb23 (talk) 00:40, 3 January 2012 (UTC)

This user has refused consensus, compromise and civility, and to boot, has resorted to wiki-stalking me! The charge he or she initially and unfoundedly levied upon me, going out of his or her way to edit articles and undo changes I have made on articles I have years of history editing. This is absurd that I should be the one blocked, look at how unnecessary this user's edits have been and poorly formatted/lazy they are to alphabetize a list, yet they have the time to follow me around the internet. Absurd. JesseRafe (talk) 00:59, 3 January 2012 (UTC)

And you are running all over Wikipedia labeling the editor a vandal after being told not to use that term unless it clearly applied because ...?--Bbb23 (talk) 01:04, 3 January 2012 (UTC)

Deleting entire referenced sections is not vandalism? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Vandalism#Blanking.2C_illegitimate What else would I call it? Notice in the history 1) that many other editors undid the anon IP's edits, and 2) the anon IP's uncivil discourse towards other editors - and I, a trusted, long-time editor should be the one to be banned? Are you serious? JesseRafe (talk) 01:08, 3 January 2012 (UTC)

I haven't deleted referenced material. Only unreferenced material. I'm not being uncivil. You are being uncivil by calling me a vandal and lazy. Other editors only undid my edits after you falsely called them vandalism in an edit summary, giving people the impression that they ought to be reverted. 89.100.150.198 (talk) 01:21, 3 January 2012 (UTC)

That's not completely accurate. You have reverted material with citations. Here's one example: [50]. --Bbb23 (talk) 01:38, 3 January 2012 (UTC)

If you read those links you'll see that nowhere do any of them mention nominative determinism. All they do is mention the existence of the persons listed, they do not say anything about their names leading to their professions, so they are not references for nominative determinism. 89.100.150.198 (talk) 01:48, 3 January 2012 (UTC)

As I've said before, if you read the article you would see it said it was a theory that it could be, and thus these were examples, no one ever said it was a fact that their names caused their professions. Just examples of people whom the application of the theory could be applied to. And there mere existence is a primary source, so they belong to be entered on the page. JesseRafe (talk) 01:52, 3 January 2012 (UTC)

Sorry, that part of policy doesn't support your position. The IP is not removing material without explaining why. Vandalism of that sort is usually clearly destructive (a silent removal of sourced material, for example). Also, I might point out that both you and the IP are edit-warring in the Nominative determinism article, and each of you has already violated WP:3RR.--Bbb23 (talk) 01:15, 3 January 2012 (UTC)

I haven't looked at the overall issue, but to comment only on the disputed content at the Nominative determinism article - I was looking at that article and I agree with the IPs removal - there is a OR issue there and Jesse is replacing with a reason of self-evident examples of a theory. The article intro states, "a person's name can have a significant role in determining key aspects of job, profession or even character." and then there is a list of uncited names that no one has made this association about in a reliable source. Youreallycan (talk) 01:19, 3 January 2012 (UTC)

In addition, your attitude toward the IP is condescending. First, you continually refer to him as an "anon IP", which is redundant and can only serve to emphasize that s/he is not registered. Second, you call yourself a "trusted, long-time editor", which actually doesn't help you as, if anything, you should be held to a higher standard for understanding Wikipedia policies and guidelines. Finally, although the issues may be interrelated, the block (not "ban") you deserve, in my view, is separate from any possible sanction against the IP, but, thus far, the only thing I see is edit-warring, which you are equally guilty of.--Bbb23 (talk) 01:22, 3 January 2012 (UTC)

Not entirely true, when the IP made the unfounded allegations the other day I stopped out of the 3RR rule. The edits today were new edits, first based on wholesale content removal by IP and then by me with a selective amount of content restored, i.e. I didn't merely undo, but pared the list down. The IP is just continuing to delete on principle. And also, might I add, he or she is ironically enough wikistalking me, randomly undoing some of my edits on other pages, such as Ghost Dog. I'll stop using the label vandal, but is that really the problem here? Not the arrogance of the IP to insult and curse at other editors and ignore consensus? JesseRafe (talk) 01:24, 3 January 2012 (UTC)

All I did was provide a reference for a previously uncited fact in the article... A reference you promptly deleted on the grounds that it was "sloppy". 89.100.150.198 (talk) 01:53, 3 January 2012 (UTC)

That's provably false. I undid someone else's unconstructive edit that was in poor style and not well said, and you undid my edit of that (assumedly out of spite, i.e. wikistalking because you had never edited that article before) and you undid that with a citation, but I did not remove the content because it was uncited, but because that information did not belong in the soundtracl area and in fact, already was in the right place of the article in the cast section.JesseRafe (talk) 02:04, 3 January 2012 (UTC)

(edit conflict) I count 4 reverts by you today for the purpose of the rule (and there's always edit-warring even without the rule). Stop focusing on what IP has done and focus on what you did before the first ANI topic and then in between the close of that topic and the opening of this one. How could you so quickly ignore the counsel of so many editors not to use the vandal label?--Bbb23 (talk) 01:33, 3 January 2012 (UTC)

Also, have you actually looked at the edit history? The IP just says "fuck yourself" to me in an edit summary undoing my edit for the first time (which is what got me to notice the IP in the first place and think he might be a vandal because of the language used) and then you cite IDHT to me to admonish me? I feel like I'm in the Twilight Zone. The IP refuses to get the point, because while I was away from wikipedia during the holidays no less than 3 other editors undid IP's edits only for the IP to undo them again. So which of us is not getting the point about the status of this article? And who deserves the ban? I can't believe the IP was able to manipulate this into being about me? Look at my edits, I don't engage in edit warring, but do a lot of work fixing vandalism and making underserved articles much better. JesseRafe (talk) 01:30, 3 January 2012 (UTC)

The "fuck yourself" comment is old and was part of the first ANI topic. The IP was admonished not to attack editors during the topic. Yet, the IP has not ignored that admonishment. OTOH, you have ignored the counsel of others.--Bbb23 (talk) 01:36, 3 January 2012 (UTC)

Eh... I told you to go fuck yourself because you referred to my constructive edits as vandalism in an edit summary. How can you possibly claim that it "is what got me to notice the IP in the first place and think he might be a vandal because of the language used". The language was used after you called me a vandal. 89.100.150.198 (talk) 01:56, 3 January 2012 (UTC)

Also, I assume the 2 (which is less than 3) editors that reverted me did so at least partially based on the fact that you called me a vandal, and they assumed that you wouldn't have called me a vandal without first checking to see whether I was or not. 89.100.150.198 (talk) 02:01, 3 January 2012 (UTC)

I'm sorry, I'm more than a little offended this is still happening. Look at the IP's talk page, and how he or she has a history of edit warring and warnings for other articles. Why has no warning been put there for this time? Why am I the only one targeted by the IP's viscous character attack? This is absurd that he or she breaks multiple rules and I try to maintain the integrity of wikipedia, but the IP complains first and loudest and gets what they want. JesseRafe (talk) 01:48, 3 January 2012 (UTC)

You're going in circles. I'll let other editors weigh in on your conduct and your self-deflecting complaints.--Bbb23 (talk) 02:08, 3 January 2012 (UTC)

• I commented at the last ANI discussion of this issue (to the effect that the IP is right and that JesseRafe has incorrectly used "vandal"). It is disappointing that JesseRafe shows no signs of understanding what multiple editors have tried to explain, and something needs to happen to ensure the IP is left to continue their good edits unhindered (I haven't checked many of their edits, just enough to see that the IP is at least sometimes correct, and I don't see any credible claims of a bad edit). JesseRafe has unfortunately got a little personally involved in the dispute (hint: adding unsourced examples because they are "self-evident examples" is original research—has a secondary source examined all the people named "Fish" and determined whether an unusual proportion of them are marine biologists?). Can we agree that the matter is too trivial to warrant a formal interaction ban, but there must be no further interference. Johnuniq (talk) 02:53, 3 January 2012 (UTC)

John, this is completely Kafkaesque. As I explained before I was suspicious about the IP when he cursed at me and selectively (not systematically) examined some of the IP edits (because how could I know it was even one person?) and then undid some of his other more spurious edits. Then, the IP began wikistalking me! I have been making edits at the Ghost Dog page for years, and the IP out of spite then begins to undo my edits there. And I long ago apologized for calling him a vandal. I apparently misunderstood that blanking entire sections is not considered vandalism anymore. Also, please note that this IP is the only one who holds this view on ND and that other editors have also undone the IP's edits, and the IP has a history of being warned about engaging in edit wars, whereas I have not. What is the issue? OK, he's not a vandal, but he needs to be blocked from the page (or the page should be protected) because he is ignoring consensus. Let's focus on the big picture and what needs to be done to stop disruption. JesseRafe (talk) 03:42, 3 January 2012 (UTC)

• "I was suspicious about the IP when he cursed at me". No. I cursed at you after you called me a vandal in an edit summary where you reverted one of my constructive edits.

• "I have been making edits at the Ghost Dog page for years, and the IP out of spite then begins to undo my edits there". You need to read WP:OWN. I didn't undo any of your edits. You removed some material, which I then tracked down a reference for, and reinserted with the reference. I did not do this out of spite. You then deleted the reference.
• "IP is the only one who holds this view on ND and that other editors have also undone the IP's edits". Other editors reverted my edits (once each) after you falsely marked my edits as vandalism.
• "IP has a history of being warned about engaging in edit wars, whereas I have not". I have warned you for edit warring, and you immediately removed the warnings.
• "he needs to be blocked from the page (or the page should be protected) because he is ignoring consensus". Consensus and "the version you want" are not the same thing. By your logic, you need to be blocked because you ignore WP:OR and WP:CIV. 89.100.150.198 (talk) 04:14, 3 January 2012 (UTC)

This is the problem, that you completely miscategorize my edits and libel me on these boards and admins who only superficially examine the issue somehow get fooled by your conniving.

1. I labeled you a vandal under a misunderstanding. Previously anyone who blanked an entire section was marked a vandal, and this must have changed. Your edit appeared to be vandalism as it was unexplained wanton deletion. I apologized for this multiple times. Furthermore, one instance of a simple mistake does not warrant being told "to go fuck [my]self" -- that's the most clear and egregious breach of wikipedia policy committed by either of us.

2. Your defense about Ghost Dog is so wrong it's almost funny. You did follow me there, how can you say you didn't? And you did undo my edits. I deleted it because it was spurious unencyclopedic content and I deleted it before I even knew it was the same person (again, you're using an anonymous IP address - how can I know who you are or bother to memorize a long string of random numbers?). I had never interacted with you on the Ghost Dog page before, and had no reason to suspect it would be the same person from Nominative Determinism following me there to undo my constructive edits out of spite. And yes, I removed the reference, because it was a reference attached to a phrase that did not belong in the article at all, as it contributed nothing to the page, was redundant information and was about the cast (where the same information was already listed) and not the soundtrack (because the sentence fragment and reference was about the cast, not the soundtrack).

3. It is conjecture on your part what the motives of the other editors were. But it is still fact that they reverted your edits, which speaks for itself, whether or not they independently found your edits inappropriate (likely) or based on my say-so (which is doubtful, as must editors examine a page's changes before reverting).

4. I don't think you know what consensus means. Other editors have also been undoing your edits. It's the version of the article they want too. You're the only one who doesn't understand consensus is not the version that they themselves want. And the policy on OR is not applicable here because it deals with primary sources that are self-evident, not research. And bringing up CIV? You? "Mr. Go Fuck Yourself"? Too ironic for me to comment on. JesseRafe (talk) 04:54, 3 January 2012 (UTC)

1. "I labeled you a vandal under a misunderstanding. ". You called me a vandal at least 9 times, 5 of which were after other editors had explained to you that my actions did not constitute vandalism.

2. "I had never interacted with you on the Ghost Dog page before, and had no reason to suspect it would be the same person from Nominative Determinism following me there to undo my constructive edits out of spite. And yes, I removed the reference, because it was a reference attached to a phrase that did not belong in the article at all, as it contributed nothing to the page, was redundant information and was about the cast (where the same information was already listed) and not the soundtrack (because the sentence fragment and reference was about the cast, not the soundtrack)." How is referencing information not contributing to the page? How is it spiteful?

3. "It is conjecture on your part what the motives of the other editors were. But it is still fact that they reverted your edits, which speaks for itself". The idea that reverts speak for themselves is conjecture on your part.

4. "I don't think you know what consensus means. Other editors have also been undoing your edits." Undoing my edits, once, after you labelled them as vandalism. You are the only one who reverted my edits more than once.

5 "And the policy on OR is not applicable here because it deals with primary sources that are self-evident, not research." The policy on OR is always applicable. Otherwise anyone could decide that the material they wanted to add was "self evident".

6 "And bringing up CIV? You? "Mr. Go Fuck Yourself"? Too ironic for me to comment on.". You called me a vandal before I swore at you. People don't appreciate being insulted.

7 You shouldn't keep referring to my words as "libel". Give WP:No legal threats#Perceived legal threats a read. 89.100.150.198 (talk) 05:21, 3 January 2012 (UTC)

1. Right, it was a misunderstanding about how the term "vandal" was being defined. I honestly thought your edit constituted vandalism. I then corrected myself. Moot, give it up.

2. You referenced information that was deleted. Once again, read what I said. It was not removed because it was unreferenced, it was removed because it was written poorly, redundant and in the wrong place. What was spiteful was that you had clearly followed me to that page to undo my edits. I.e. wikistalking me.

3. No, it is not. Another example of misunderstanding plain meaning. No matter how you look at it, your position is conjecture based on what you surmise their motives for undoing your edits was, while my position is to merely point to the fact that others have undone your edits to that page not just me. The former is idle speculation, the latter is a verifiable fact.

4. Perhaps I am the only one who has the page on their watchlist. Also, it is the holidays. Either way, irrelevant.

5. Once again, you don't understand the gist of the article and why this is NOT original research. No one ever advocated for including anything under the guise of OR, just that the self-evident in this case means they are primary sources.

6. One was an honest mistake and not an insult - it appeared to be vandalism, a statement, not a pejorative. You knowingly and willfully used obscenities in your edit summary, and your abrasive attitude implies you may be willing to do so again as you feel so justified in having done so.

7. Now you're just grasping at straws. How could I sue you? You're being silly. "Libel" is an objective assessment about you lying about me in printed form. That's libel. There need be no lawsuit or threat of legal action to accurately categorize written lies as "libel". JesseRafe (talk) 05:47, 3 January 2012 (UTC)

• Will someone please close this before the hole gets too deep. I have invited the IP to ask my opinion if the view of a third person is wanted on other articles. Johnuniq (talk) 06:13, 3 January 2012 (UTC)

Block request for user:Meryam90

Reference to the page Don2 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Don_2:_The_King_is_Back and its discussion page .

The user Meryam90 (talk) is totally unaware of wikipedia guidelines and the meaning of the word vandalism . She has been warned by many wiki editors in the past about her continuous use of removal of others comments citing vandalism . She is the editor at Don2 page and is so ridiculous that she wants to use a tweet of the worst trade expert in India - Taran Adarsh and his pathetic site "bollywoodhungama.com" for reporting box-office collections . Consensus on the SOLE USE of BoxofficeIndia.com (BOI)- the premier site on box-office collections in India has been made long ago ; and every Bollywood movie (hindi movie ) main infobox uses BOI numbers . So using any other site or especially a tweet on the twitter-networking site from a useless trade analyst is highly unacceptable and lame . Moreover , if you observe the view history of that article closely , you can easily see that the editor is making personal comments on me and using vandalism as a totally unnecessary tool here . I deleted the BO-figures n gross from the info-box and she starts harrassing and attacking me after undoing my edits . She seems to be a huge Shah Rukh Khan( a bollywood actor ) fangirl who wants to control his every film article . So , it happens to be the obvious case here , that the INFOBOX on his 2 latest movies reads box-office numbers from useless sites other than BOI. First , she abused all editors on the Raone discussion page regarding bo figures (btw which are still not according to BOI ) and now in case of Don2 she wants to degrade the standards of Wikipedia by using a lame tweet for box-office figures that too in main infobox .

So , Ra.one and Don2 (both ShahRukhKhan movies ) have now become the only movies in Hindi cinema that are using pathetic and lame sources other than BOI ; whereas all other (THOUSANDS OF )movies use BOI . This is unfair to all those movies .

So , i request an immediate BLOCK for this user for spoiling the integrity of Wikipedia for giving out box-office collections for hindi films FROM FAKE SITES as well as for using vandalism as an unnecessary tool for deleting and undoing others edts plus attacking me .

Thanks .Seeta mayya (talk) 01:52, 3 January 2012 (UTC)

Has the user had at least 2 or 3 previous warnings? --Ta, Chip123456 (talk) 08:08, 3 January 2012 (UTC)

Infinitesimal knowledge

Resolved

 – IP blocked for antisemitic trolling and inability to edit collaboratively. TenOfAllTrades(talk) 14:53, 3 January 2012 (UTC)

In Talk:Infinitesimal, 12.176.152.194 (talk · contribs · WHOIS) has added personal attacks against editors (myself, Tkuvho (talk · contribs), Thenub314 (talk · contribs), and a few others) and some other specific living mathematicians. It's been suggested that this edit justifies a block. Whether or not I agree, it's an attack against me, so I cannot block because of it. Comments? — Arthur Rubin (talk) 04:58, 3 January 2012 (UTC)

Even forgetting the personal insults, he indicates both anti-semitism and sockpuppetry. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 05:04, 3 January 2012 (UTC)

Actually, I don't see the sockpuppetry. He was at another IP before, but he admits it. — Arthur Rubin (talk) 05:47, 3 January 2012 (UTC)

WP:block also sites "personal, professional, or legal threats (including outside the Wikipedia site)" as a blockable offence, I think it applies here. Sasha (talk) 06:16, 3 January 2012 (UTC)

This edit contains the following comment: Here I am, superior to Newton, Leibniz and Cauchy. Now Rubin who is a worm next to me, which would seem to justify a block together with comments already mentioned. Tkuvho (talk) 11:02, 3 January 2012 (UTC)

Anytime you come up against superior intellect, your last desperate response is to silence an individual. Rubin has been disdainful and insulting in his communications with me. Attacking one's intelligence is a personal attack. Rubin was looking for and initiated a squabble. Of all the users, the problem only occurred with Rubin. And this is not a new thing, as we have communicated in the past. This is all a facade by Rubin. If you block me, it means nothing to me. Wikipedia loses, not I. Rubin, what I suggest to you is this: if you cannot take it, don't dish it out. Your disdainful attitude is a personal attack. 12.176.152.194 (talk) 11:31, 3 January 2012 (UTC)

This is textbook trolling. Block him and move on. 74.98.35.216 (talk) 14:36, 3 January 2012 (UTC)

I have blocked for 72 hours for the antisemitic trolling and inability to edit collaboratively. If there are any further edits in the same vein after the block expires, the IP can be reblocked for longer. TenOfAllTrades(talk) 14:53, 3 January 2012 (UTC)

Need help with a BLP violator

An IP-hopping editor continues to post stuff that refers to someone he fancies as his girlfriend on facebook or some such. The articles he's hit so far have been semi-protected. The talk pages also need to be semi'd. This includes Talk:Claudia Black and Talk:Name-dropping‎. A third talk page, about Rango (2011 film), has already been semi'd short-term. Rango is where this started, in late November or so. That article history has a number of items rev-del'd. Probably ALL of the references need to be rev-del'd on those 3 talk pages. However, they should first be semi'd, the keep the IP from re-adding it. Thank you, all. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 07:12, 3 January 2012 (UTC)

(Bugs and I have some discussion on my talk page on this but probably better to carry on here. I blocked the IP most recently being used by this vandal for 48 hours, without warnings because of the long history of IP-hopping abuse.) My concern is that he's already shown through his edits on name-dropping that he's a very persistent long-term vandal, so short-term blocks aren't going to help much. And is it really appropriate to semiprotect a talk page on a long term basis? —David Eppstein (talk) 07:21, 3 January 2012 (UTC)

As you've seen, he's had 2 IP's just in the last 10 minutes. And he's also got a tendency to post the Nazi flag, which is why he hit up me and Tenebrae before we had our own talk pages semi'd (which is within the conventional rules). I know they hate to block talk pages, but doesn't real-life BLP concern override that rule? ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 07:26, 3 January 2012 (UTC)

Well, I at least semi'd the black and name-dropping talk pages for a week, to match the protection already in place for Rango's talk page. That doesn't seem so long as to be particularly harmful to me and should give us time to discuss the issue properly without being distracted by stomping out fires. —David Eppstein (talk) 07:30, 3 January 2012 (UTC)

Yes, to square with Favonian's protection of Rango. He had expressed the same reservations about blocking a talk page. We need some more heads on this one. If it was gard-variety vandalism, it wouldn't matter. But this is a BLP issue. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 07:38, 3 January 2012 (UTC)

Baseball Bugs is correct in his concerns, and only giving the tip of the iceberg. As I noted at Wikipedia:Abuse response/58.178.101.246, he's been blocked five times (though because he's jumped from 58.178 IPs to a couple of other IPs, he evaded censure).

He has vandalized and harassed continually from a 58.178 and 58.179 range including:

• 58.178.101.246
• 58.178.158.6
• 58.178.143.164
• 58.179.151.44,
• 58.178.154.119, and
• 58.179.132.246, as well as 210.50.115.243, [which has made the same distinctive "Angelique Carrington" edits]

He has been blocked at

• 58.178.101.246,
• 58.178.145.167 and
• 58.178.150.189

as well as at

• 203.212.133.140, and
• on Dec. 7, 2011 at 210.50.42.209 [which have made the same distinctive "Angelique Carrington" edits]

As late as December 28, 2011, he was making Nazi-related vandal edits through yet another 58.178 IP, 58.178.158.166.

I hope this raw data helps in reaching a conclusion about the best way to deal with this persistent serial vandal who has shown no sign of relenting even after several months. --Tenebrae (talk) 11:08, 3 January 2012 (UTC)

In view of the magnitude of the problem, I guess we have to semi the talk pages. Given the persistence of this particular pest, we may even have to extend the protection, which I know will rub some people the wrong way, but Bugs is right: BLP trumps the right of IPs to edit freely. Favonian (talk) 11:19, 3 January 2012 (UTC)

Psychology questionnaire sites with commercial advertisements spammed.

There are users posing as psychology professionals and posting their own domains with psychology questionnaires which has Google Adsense links on them and also attempting to replace existing non-profit relevant links with his own commercial sites.

I have submitted a blacklist for the domains posted by this user, who has previously been suspended for sock puppetry.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MediaWiki_talk:Spam-blacklist#psychology-tools.com_.26_psymed.info

The range of spams posted over the time spans many articles and it damages the quality of the articles and Wikipedia reputation. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Booyahshakashogun (talk • contribs) 09:52, 3 January 2012 (UTC)

Problems with user 88.247.101.165 and 46.196.33.96.

Hello again, Last week talked about this users and i felt that you don't believe me. The users I mentioned are the same person. One day before this user: 88.247.101.165 , and yesterday, with user 46.196.33.96. ( one of them warned more than once!!!!!!!!) Two of these users did not reply answers to me or they arguing with me about the same issues. They don't bring me their proof and they simply change the article, I got proof (on the talk page of Ben Gurion Airport) and they ignored them. I noticed that this 2 users edit the same things and always edit the same articles (especially Turkish airports). PLEASE HELP ME!!!--Friends147 (talk) 10:35, 3 January 2012 (UTC)

Hi, I am not very knowledgeable with this area but perhaps you should seek assistance with the Wikipedia:WikiProject Airports, to have more people watching these pages and build a stronger consensus. In the meantime, I have blocked both IPs for 1 week since they have made no attempt to communicate despite the warnings on their talk page. -- Luk ^talk 11:18, 3 January 2012 (UTC)

Please change image:box to use the right template instead of existing as a redirect

Please set Image:Box.jpg to have Image:Image.gif on it (a warning image) or something else like that, instead of existing as a redirect as it does now. Banaticus (talk) 12:17, 3 January 2012 (UTC)

I believe you see the redirect because it is set that way on Commons: [51]. Perhaps it should be changed there instead? -- Luk ^talk 14:07, 3 January 2012 (UTC)

I suggest a long-block for User: Shmayo

This user have since he became an editor here on Wikipedia, only contributed to Assyrian-related articles. He have started alot of edit- and revertwars. Just check his last contributes History, he have only been reverting articles, editing articles in order to raise a particular identity. He removes the term "Syriac" or "Aramean" in every article he finds, and replace it with "Assyrian". If the source clearly use the term "Syriac", then he either replace it with "Assyrian" or just adds the term "Assyrian" with the edit-comment "Neutralisation". He have started dozens of edit wars in Syriac related articles, but also in Chaldean-related articles. Just to describe the situation between Syriacs, Assyrians and Chaldeans; Three names for a same group. Some consider themselves "Syriacs" ad trace it roots back to the ancient Arameans. The other group consider themselves "Assyrians" and trace their roots back to the ancient Assyrians. The last group consieder themselves "Chaldeans" and trace their roots back to the ancient Chaldeans. It is an on-going war between them, especially here in Wikipedia in all articles related to this group. User Shmayo is seriously contributing to this on-going war here in Wikipedia, just check his History History and his talkpage Talk, it us full of warnings and debates from alot of users and administrators. He keeps starting editwars, he breaks the 3RR rule, he is guarding articles, he moves page without even discussing them, he is stalking users, edit warring in alot of articles. He keeps removing the name "Aramean" from articles and replaces it with Assyrian even if it was backed up with source he also removes the source, just because that name does not "fit" him 1, 2, 3 just for examples. All his edits can be found in his contribution-history, and all warnings and debates and everything can be found on his talkpage. His recent "contribution" were made on this article Syrianska FC. I was asked in January this year, to remake the whole article about Syrianska FC on Wikipedia, since the team got promoted from Second-division to first-division in Sweden. They wanted an article full with information and sources, and improvements to meet Wikipedia's quality standards. This was the version before i contributed Version 1, and this is the version after my contributions Version 2. I really made a huge improvement for the article, also with help from user Reckless. Then User: Shmayo came to this article and started his editwars. This was his contribution; Contribution. He removed alot from the intro, just becase a specific name did not fit him, without even discussing it on the articles talkpage. I everything backed up with sources on that article. Also, 2 months ago me and two other users on wikipedia agreed on the current version. We had a discussion about some things on the article, and at last we agreed to remove and rewrite some things, and then result was the current version. We did even not to ask for a third opinion notice from an administrator since we all already agreed. But this User: Shmayo, he does not discuss or provide sources, he just vandalize and have been keep doing this for the last two years. I suggest an administrator revert all his recent edits, and maybe time for a permanent ban? SYRIANIEN (talk) 12:54, 3 January 2012 (UTC)

Did you think they missed Wikipedia:Administrators'_noticeboard/IncidentArchive733#I_suggest_a_long-block_for_User:_Shmayo, or what is your purpose copy-pasting this just a couple days after? Shmayo (talk) 14:07, 3 January 2012 (UTC)

To be honest, i dont know how everything works if an reported incident is being archived. I suggest we let the administrators solve it, if it is wrongly replaced here then an administrator can handle it. SYRIANIEN (talk) 15:53, 3 January 2012 (UTC)

The guidelines for how you should do are written under "How to use this page". Shmayo (talk) 16:55, 3 January 2012 (UTC)

JohnC

• JohnC (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · nuke contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

Coming here after reporting at AIV page at suggestion of Reaper Eternal. Longterm and persistent issues with POV, neutrality, BLP violations, removal of content they don't agree with, and personal commentary. Most recently: [52], [53], [54], [55]. User has received numerous notices and warnings for months, and appears to edit with, among other issues, a racial agenda. 76.248.147.199 (talk) 15:47, 3 January 2012 (UTC)