Wikipedia talk:Article titles

Ambiguous or inaccurate

PMA when you made this change on 22 August 2011 I think you made an inadvertent change in meaning, or at least it can be read that way.

Before there was as sentence:

The ideal title for an article will also satisfy the questions outlined above; ambiguous or inaccurate names for the article subject, as determined by reliable sources, are often avoided even though they may be more frequently used by reliable sources. Hidden comment BETTER EXAMPLE NEEDED For example, tsunami is preferred over the arguably more typical, but less accurate tidal wave.

It is clear from this sentence that ambiguous or inaccurate is referring to the bullet points in questions outlined above. But then it was a stand alone sentence at the bottom of the section. Now it is in the first paragraph:

Titles are often proper nouns, such as the name of the person, place or thing that is the subject of the article. The most common name for a subject is often used as a title because it is recognizable and natural; one should also ask questions outlined above; ambiguous or inaccurate names for the article subject, as determined by reliable sources, are often avoided even though they may be more frequently used by reliable sources. For a discussion of neutrality in titles, see below. When there are several names for a subject, all of them fairly common, and the most common has problems, it is perfectly reasonable to choose one of the others.

The problem is that by extracting the phrase "ambiguous or inaccurate names for the article subject, as determined by reliable sources, are often avoided even though they may be more frequently used by reliable sources". Which after all comes after a semicolon, it can be used to support the "correct" name and ignore the common name. See this posting in an RFC at Use English. Now I happen to know that this is taking part of a sentence out of context, but I suggest that we either move the sentence back down the section, or we rephrase it to make it clear that we are talking about Precision and Conciseness --PBS (talk) 22:34, 19 November 2011 (UTC)

The before and after both present considerable problems. Mr Anderson is not permitted to respond to your question, so please take this into consideration when thinking of directly addressing him here. Tony (talk) 10:31, 20 November 2011 (UTC)

I did not know that. So what do you think should be done? -- PBS (talk) 10:48, 20 November 2011 (UTC)

News to me too; I am inhibited from discussing technical aspects of English. Septentrionalis PMAnderson

• PMA is prohibited from discussing issues around the technical use of English. I think it is safe to ask what he meant by his edit, as the guidance under discussion is about what the subject is normally called. I appreciate Tony's concern that this discussion may descend into an argument about phrasing - which would violate the technical use of English ban for certain. I will keep an eye on here, if people are concerned.Elen of the Roads (talk) 17:13, 21 November 2011 (UTC)

The second version has two semicolons without having parallellism. There seems a clear solution, which also may address the problem which brought me here (this move discussion, in which the nominator quotes consistency as though it were the whole of the policy); break after "questions outlined above".

None of the questions decide article titles by themselves; in particular, ambiguous or inaccurate names for the article subject, as determined by reliable sources, are sometimes avoided even though they may be more frequently used by reliable sources.

JCScaliger (talk) 04:35, 21 November 2011 (UTC)

As for the substance, while the two semicolons are clumsy (my fault), I don't think trying to fine-tune implications works; too many readers understand them differently. What do you want this to convey, Phillip? Septentrionalis PMAnderson 16:27, 21 November 2011 (UTC)

When linked to the old tsunami example it was less likely that phrase "ambiguous or inaccurate names for the article subject, as determined by reliable sources, are often avoided even though they may be more frequently used by reliable sources." could be extracted to justify using the "correct" name (because the common name is "inaccurate"). In the context of the paragraph that is not what is meant so because this phrase can be extracted an used that way I suggest that we amend the sentence so that this phrase can not be extracted in this way. The sentence needs to be clearer, and probably more succinct, eg (as a first draft improvements welcome):

We decide on the common name through the frequency of use in reliable sources. Titles are often proper nouns, such as the name of the person, place or thing that is the subject of the article. A common name for a subject is often used as a title because it is recognizable and natural, but the consideration should also be given to the other questions outlined above in the section "deciding on an article title".

I have also added in a definition of common name as the phrase pre-dates the introduction of reliable sources into this policy. But it is not my major concern at the moment removing "inaccurate" is, so if anyone objects to the definition, then just remove it from the proposed word change. --PBS (talk) 20:13, 21 November 2011 (UTC)

I don't think that the phrase, "We decide on the common name through the frequency of use..." is such a good idea. That might be read as something like, "We decide to use the common name whenever we can find one that is used frequently..." What we actually mean here is something closer to, "If multiple options for a title exist, we decide which of these options is the most common name for a subject according to the frequency of use..."

I suspect that we do sometimes reject names because they are "inaccurate". For example, some medical conditions have changed names over the years, usually because the initial name suggested a specific etiology that was later proven wrong. We might also reject a title as "inaccurate" due to being out of date (e.g., a business changed its name). WhatamIdoing (talk) 20:51, 21 November 2011 (UTC)

I don't think it can be read that way. Suppose, as is almost always the case, there is only one statistically significant name then it is not a choice between, multiple options. Multiple options is the exception rather than the rule (and is covered in the phrase because the phrase begs the question "What if there are multiple common names?" as it is quite possible to have a "frequency of use in reliable sources" that throws up more than one name, but it is still the "frequency of use in reliable sources" that defines common name[s]).

As for the inaccurate that should be dealt with in a different way. There was a realllllllllllly lllllllloooooonnnnng debate over this some time ago,It all started with the renaming of Roman Catholic Church to Catholic Church where some wording in the old Naming conflict guideline conflicted with WP:AT. Both on the talk page of that guideline and on the talk pages of WP:AT. eg see these sample sections 1 and 2. using "Muhammad Ali" and "The artist formerly known as Prince", what you need to do in those cases, is shorten the time sample (to after the announcement of the name change). If Wikipedia had existed when Cassius Clay change his mane to Muhammad Ali, we should wait until there is significant coverage in reliable sources from the time that he made the change, before making the change here. Now in most cases when a person or an organisation changes its name this rapidly reflected in reliable sources, but we should not change the name just because it is "inaccurate" if we follow that line of reasoning then all articles would be under their "correct" name and not their common name. -- PBS (talk) 22:45, 21 November 2011 (UTC)

No, I did read it that way the first time, so it can be read that way. Perhaps you mean that you didn't intend for anyone to interpret it that way? WhatamIdoing (talk) 23:14, 28 November 2011 (UTC)

Ah. Here we come to the point of the tsunami example. There was a long period when both tsunami and tidal wave were common enough to be recognizable, but tidal wave was statistically more common (the reason we no longer have it is that the period may have ended). In this case (and it's a shame we haven't found another), the weight given to the somewhat more common name was overridden by the utility of having a name that wasn't acknowledged by reliable sources as wrong.

Philip, would your concern be met if that were worked into the language? The point about tidal wave being regarded by sources in general as inaccurate might resolve some of the abuse here. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 00:41, 22 November 2011 (UTC)

Fair point, perhaps a rewrite along the lines I've given and an additional sentence to cover the point of incorrect as mention in reliable sources. BUT it will have to be worded carefully as there is a danger that if one source says a name is incorrect then it will be used to justify a name that is technically correct in the opinion of a small minority of reliable sources, but not commonly used that way in most reliable sources. For I am sure it is possible to find a reliable source that says Big Ben is only the Bell, some pedants will use such a source, if this policy is loosely worded, argue that the Wikipedia article should therefore be under Clock Tower, Palace of Westminster (even though many reliable sources note that "The name Big Ben is often used to describe the tower, the clock and the bell but the name was first given to the Great Bell.". (BTW if one lives in the Netherlands or London its tidal waves that are the concern not tsunamis.) -- PBS (talk) 02:12, 22 November 2011 (UTC)

Seems to me the problems of phrasing perhaps arise because we still haven't completely got away from stating things as "if...then...else..." conditions or would-be algorithms, rather than acknowledging that there are simply various factors that may be taken into account when deciding on titles (probably more than the five bolded ones we list in the opening section), and that these are weighted and balanced in any given case to provide what we hope to be a satisfactory answer.--Kotniski (talk) 10:02, 22 November 2011 (UTC)

Not sure that I agree with you, on that. As no one seems to be springing to the defence of he current wording, unless there are any objection in the near I will drop my proposed first sentence until there has been further discussion but implement the second one. To cover the second point I would suggest that we add a sentence about name changes.

"If a person or an organisation changes name, then more weight should be given to name used in reliable sources published after the name change than in those before the change".

-- PBS (talk) 04:00, 24 November 2011 (UTC)

Or "thing"? Product name changes are not uncommon. WhatamIdoing (talk) 23:22, 28 November 2011 (UTC)

Although I understand your point, a thing can not change its name, so would you like to propose some alternative wording that includes things? If not I'll go with the former and changes can be made once the text is in the policy to incorporate the changes in the name of things. -- PBS (talk) 07:47, 29 November 2011 (UTC)

If the name of a person, group, object, or other article topic changes... would cover things. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 18:00, 3 December 2011 (UTC)

Born2Cycle you reverted out the inclusion of this paragraph

We decide on the common name through the frequency of use in reliable sources. When there are several common names for a subject, it is perfectly reasonable to select as an article title the name that best fits the other criteria in this policy. If the name of a person, group, object, or other article topic changes then more weight should be given to name used in reliable sources published after the name change than in those before the change.

With the comment

Revert. Strongly disagree there is consensus support for this change, certainly not mine. The MOST common name is given preference, and policy should continue to reflect that. Please discuss first such a radical change.

As you can see it has been discussed. What exactly is it in the wording I introduced that with which you disagree, or perceive there to be a problem? -- PBS (talk) 08:56, 12 December 2011 (UTC)

• These long and convoluted threads are hard to follow. Even when I think I understand what the issue is, it sometimes turns out that editors are citing this or that policy to buttress their point but their real reason for opposing/supporting is based on something else. So will someone please precisely explain what the debate here is exactly about? I’ll see if I can help to reach or contribute to a consensus. Greg L (talk) 01:43, 13 December 2011 (UTC)

  @Septentrionalis PMAnderson: Your editing restrictions (detailed at Wikipedia:Editing restrictions#Placed by the Wikipedia community) are quite clear. You are Topic banned from WP:MOS and discussions anywhere on the project concerning the Manual of Style or technical aspects of the use of the English language anywhere on the project, including his own talkpage, for a period of one year. So what is your rationale for weighing in here notwithstanding that? Is there a tacit understanding with someone in power that you can weigh in on these types of discussions if you can behave yourself? Or are you seeing how thin the ice is by simply walking out on it with your arms outstretched? I personally find my own views on wikimatters are typically extremely well aligned with yours; more so than most other editors on these types of pages. But there will be precious little slack cut for you if you revert to your old ways. Please explain your presence here. Greg L (talk) 02:22, 13 December 2011 (UTC)

This last comment does not exactly help keep the section succinct and would probably have been better off on PMA's talk page, but to answer your question please see the comment by Elen of the Roads (who implemented the ban) near the start of this section. -- PBS (talk) 03:26, 13 December 2011 (UTC)

• My comment is appropriate in both places. I’ve seen Tony recently remind PMA on his talk page only to see PMA promptly delete Tony’s post and then do as he pleased in debate venues like this. (So much for leaving a “little pinky-out” notice on PMA’s talk page.)

  As was amply demonstrated at Talk:Yogurt, PMA’s inflammatory manner of contributing would result in flamewars. Only after someone pointed out there at Talk:Yogurt that PMA wasn’t even supposed to be weighing in there did one editor write what amounted to “Oh… well if I had known that in the first place, I wouldn’t have taken the bait.” Ergo, since few editors new to discussions start from the very top and catch every post, it is appropriate and helpful to remind both PMA and the community that he isn’t supposed to be here anyway—as I just did, and rightly so.

  There is probably no single ideal way to get PMA to comply with his editing restriction and it is obvious he is intent on testing the limits and wants to push them back. Given that he knew he was treading on thin ice at Talk:Yogurt and still managed to tick off some editors, I personally see no point to just pretending he has no editing restriction, ignoring that he is being provocative in places he is not supposed to be, not letting others know that they needn’t take the bait, letting him slowly devolve into his old habits, and finally letting a shoe drop at at ANI. ANIs are ugly and an utter waste of the community’s time if they can be avoided with a polite but direct reminder that it is not too much to ask that an editor abide by an abundantly clear and unambiguous editing restriction.

  But, thank you PBS, for reminding me that it would be helpful to provide a fuller accounting here of just why it is so hard to reign in PMA. Perhaps you might try your hand at reminding him of his editing restrictions on his talk page; maybe you will have better luck. Happy editing. Greg L (talk) 04:05, 13 December 2011 (UTC)

Born, the fact is that we don't always use "the MOST common name", especially if "the MOST common name" is used by less than half the sources (which happens not infrequently when more than two alternative names exist), but my bigger concern is that you seem to be engaging in sloppy reversions. Do you actually have something against the idea that "If the name of a person, group, object, or other article topic changes then more weight should be given to name used in reliable sources published after the name change than in those before the change", or was this just a mindless reversion of a good change, that you're now going to correct? WhatamIdoing (talk) 03:32, 13 December 2011 (UTC)

My objection is this line: "When there are several common names for a subject, it is perfectly reasonable to select as an article title the name that best fits the other criteria in this policy." Two of the five criteria support selecting the name most commonly used in RS: Recognizability and naturalness. Therefore the way this statement can be interpreted is that it's "perfectly acceptable" to pay no mind to those two criteria, and simply select based only on conciseness, preciseness and consistency.

Example: Say A is more natural, more recognizable, more concise and just as consistent with similar titles as B, but B is more concise. Even though A is favored by 3 of the 5 criteria, and a wash on a 4th, this statement suggests that choosing B is "perfectly reasonable" because, ignoring the common name criteria, B is favor by one of the remaining 3 criteria, and so is A. I don't think that reflects actual practice. --Born2cycle (talk) 05:43, 14 December 2011 (UTC)

To illustrate my point with a real example, consider Talk:David_Owen#Requested_move where David Owen → David Owen, Baron Owen was proposed by Jimbo himself, and part of his argument in favor was to discount WP:COMMONNAME because simply following it in such a clear-cut case "is at odds with long-standing consensus" for "other factors" to be considered. Consensus clearly disagreed with that argument, at least there, and it I thought that to be typical, not an aberration.

Now, if there are multiple common names and none is clearly the most common, then, sure, we use other factors (i.e., consistency, concision and precision) to decide. But if one name is clearly the most common, then usually it's favored, and it's not "perfectly reasonable" to pick one of the other common names because it best fits the other criteria of the policy. --Born2cycle (talk) 17:39, 14 December 2011 (UTC)

I think that I'll just chip in with one observation that I believe B2C will recognise from elsewhere... it's problematic to suggest that it's generally possible to determine the "most common", as there are instances in which it can't be determined with great confidence, due to a bias towards finding online sources. This can mean a bias towards certain regions (due to earlier widespread internet adoption or fuller digitisation of sources) or to sources that are more recent (or, theoretically, sometimes to older sources because they are out of copyright). It's only really fair to operate on the basis of the most common name if it is absolutely uncontroversial (and not just seen by some editors as uncontroversial). SamBC(talk) 23:13, 14 December 2011 (UTC)

There are certainly the situations where the answer to the question of the most common name is controversial, but that's not a reason to not use such a name. That is, if the other factors indicate it should be the title, the controversy over it being the most common should not be a reason to not use it.

But in the vast majority of cases we don't have such a controversy about most common. My concern with the proposed wording is that it would seem to discourage using the most common name in situations where there is no controversy about that, like in the David Owen example I just gave above, but other factors (like consistency) indicate another title. --Born2cycle (talk) 01:04, 15 December 2011 (UTC)

I think that WhatamIdoing's changes put in most of what I was saying anyway. But it only touched one third of it. The other two were the addition of:

• "If the name of a person, group, object, or other article topic changes then more weight should be given to name used in reliable sources published after the name change than in those before the change."

and the second issue was what to do about the sentence "Ambiguous or inaccurate names for the article subject, as determined by reliable sources, are often avoided even though they may be more frequently used by reliable sources." because in at least one occurrence of a guideline discussion this has been used to justify using the "correct" spelling, eg a persons name in their passport as opposed to the name used in reliable secondary sources. (See this posting in an RFC at Use English). If reliable sources meant documents as opposed to for example experts then changing the phrase "used by reliable sources" to "used in reliable sources" would bring clarity to the sentence, but would that be acceptable as the reliable source could be an expert publishing in what what would otherwise be an unreliable source. -- PBS (talk) 06:09, 21 December 2011 (UTC)

Use of Japanese

A guideline proposes using English in titles: Wikipedia:Article_titles#English-language_titles. I've been having a problem with Japanese articles. Most recently with Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Fumi-e. A closed discussion, incidentally. Quick! Before looking, what is Fumi-e? If you had to look first, it is not in general use in English.

Three problems here. Two are similar. Both English and Japanese are "language sponges" trying to adopt new words from other languages, quite contrary to the norm. The third is that Japanese are much closer in time to their feudal period than European cultures. They believe them totally unique, though there are English words quite capable of describing them. The other day, I tried to introduce "liege lord" to a Japanese-Anglophone editor. He found, instead, a band with that name, perhaps not realizing it was named after a common English-related feudal expression.

I lost the Fumi-e argument after one day of allowing editors to contribute. Several were editors on the article itself and hardly neutral. Right now we have hundreds, if not thousands of non-place articles with Japanese words that have not entered English and for which there is an English equivalent. I'm looking for support here (not votes. Too late for that!  :). Student7 (talk) 13:51, 23 November 2011 (UTC)

I don't know if there is a general problem, but I honestly can't see your point on Fumi-e. What normal English concept should this be covered under, exactly? SamBC(talk) 23:55, 23 November 2011 (UTC)

Gōzoku another. Tell me what it is before you look it up please. That will show that it is in common use in English. The question is not: "is there currently a term for gozuku in English?" Which appears to be the question asked above.

BTW, had to copy term since I don't know how to get a long O on my keyboard - part of my Japanese training, apparently.

The question is "Will the use of English prevail when translating Japanese terms into English. i.e. will Wikipedia be used to introduce terms into English that were not there earlier.

The question of course, for Fumi-e: did religious zealots ever ask presumed "heretics" to spit on a cross or an icon, desecrate a Koran, or whatever? The "necessity" for the blatantly Japanese-only term of Fumi-e presumes that religious questions of this type never arose in English-speaking countries. Or in Europe and translated into English. Otherwise, why would we be forcing a term on an English reader that s/he had never seen before. Student7 (talk) 01:22, 25 November 2011 (UTC)

Your arguments might begin to be slightly convincing if you could actually tell us the English terms that you would use instead of these Japanese ones (i.e. if you proposed to rename these articles to specified titles, or merge them with specified existing English-titled articles). Proposing deleting them seems rather pointy and the wrong way to go - if that were done, the information might be lost altogether.--Kotniski (talk) 06:58, 25 November 2011 (UTC)

They are not English, nor in common use as English. The question is not whether "snartlefarb = a cane for beating kangaroos in Bohemia" is a "better" word that one in English, but whether the general public would recognize "snartlefarb!" They wouldn't. Therefore no article on snartlefarb, no matter how "efficient" the term might "seem." "Seem" BTW, implies WP:OR judgment, which is out of place in making the decision. Student7 (talk) 15:00, 25 November 2011 (UTC)

We don't generally title articles according to what the general public would recognize, but (rather) according to what people who are familiar with the subject would recognize. There are vast numbers of obscure subjects covered on Wikipedia - most of them don't have any name that the general public would recognize, because the general public have no idea that these concepts even exist. So we have to use the obscure names that the specialists use. Whether the obscure names are adjudged to be "English" or "foreign" is neither here nor there. --Kotniski (talk) 16:45, 25 November 2011 (UTC)

Does not concur with MOS:JAPAN which limits words to those than have entered the English language. Student7 (talk) 15:58, 26 November 2011 (UTC)

Don't know where you're seeing that.--Kotniski (talk) 16:32, 26 November 2011 (UTC)

That's just it. I'm not. http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/gozoku . http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/fumi-e . But I am supposed to since there is an article name and it is not a place or proper name. Student7 (talk) 21:05, 27 November 2011 (UTC)

I think you misunderstood Kotniski's question... where do you see MOS:JAPAN limiting words to those that have entered the English language? Blueboar (talk) 21:50, 27 November 2011 (UTC)

I don't see an example for fumi-e. There are a few others such as miko which have been translated in numerous texts as "shrine maiden". But neither term is exactly mainstream.∞陣内Jinnai 00:08, 28 November 2011 (UTC)

@Student7: see my response in the thread below. You seem to be imagining a rule that has simply never existed - there is absolutely no rule or custom, nor would we wish there to be, that every Wikipedia article title has to appear in English dictionaries (even excluding defined categories such as places and proper names).--Kotniski (talk) 08:40, 28 November 2011 (UTC)

And to continue: your comments at the gozoku discussion seem to indicate that you think Wikipedia is inappropriately "introducing new terms into the English language" in this way. Well, not really - Wikipedia is not an English dictionary, so by titling an article "gozoku" we're not saying that there's an English word "gozoku". What Wikipedia is is a compendium of reliably sourceable knowledge, that uses the English language as a medium to convey that knowledge. In situations where that knowledge can't be accurately conveyed using established English terminology (remember that the sources don't have to be in English), we do what English writers often do - use the available foreign-language terminology (preferably indicating that it is foreign, e.g. by italicizing, and providing an explanation of what it means, which we are often able to do conveniently using wikilinks).--Kotniski (talk) 08:51, 28 November 2011 (UTC)

I must not be understanding this complaint. Is the complaint:

1. the title needs to be translated (to what?), or
2. subjects whose titles can't be rendered conveniently in English do not deserve articles on the English Wikipedia?

I don't have a lot of sympathy for the complaint that the average English speaker won't recognize a given title. We have an enormous number of articles for which a recognizable title is simply impossible (nearly all articles in Category:Asteroid stubs, for example). We would like the most recognizable title, but in some cases, zero of the available titles are going to be recognizable to anyone except a specialist. WhatamIdoing (talk) 23:36, 28 November 2011 (UTC)

I was sticking with Japanese (as opposed to La Traviata and other European borrow words) because it was "easier" to argue. As pervasive as unfamiliar Japanese is in Wikipedia, the presence of European languages is much worse. It was easier to argue that fumi-e would not be recognized by Anglophones and never would be and wouldn't be needed either. A bit harder to argue the extremely pervasive French, Spanish and German words scattered throughout the articles which are easily understood by college educated Anglophones. Like "tres bien" or "dosvedanya" or "adieu" etc.

People seem to love the very unfamiliar Japanese because English is a "language sponge." But it is not our job to introduce these words without due process which hasn't been demonstrated. Not everyone understands them. It smacks of elitism.

I just edited "troisieme" from an article someone translated from French. I doubt that it meant "third" in the usage that was presented, but rather something else unfamiliar to the reader. (I expect that other editors there will help). The trouble when you start using foreign words/languages: it's a bit hard to know where to draw the line. The current bar to unfamiliar non-English words is way too low IMO. Student7 (talk) 21:44, 9 December 2011 (UTC)

The current "bar" is that we do whatever the English-language sources do. Translating a title just to make it be in English, when all the sources refuse to translate it, is a WP:NOR violation.

Recognizability (whether an Anglophone reader has any hope of recognizing what the word represents) is only one principle among many. In many cases, the translated word is actually less recognizable: even a complete English monoglot has a chance of recognizing that La traviata is the name of an opera and that a tsar is a kind of king. We should not rush in to translate where our sources refuse to do so. WhatamIdoing (talk) 22:47, 9 December 2011 (UTC)

I feel like the man from AA in a bar trying to recruit! No one will admit that alcoholics even exist! If fumi-e isn't a stumbling drunk, I don't know what is. Having said that, it is true that a word may be needed to describe such artifacts and, being English, we will probably discover an acceptable term in another language.

But automatically assuming that one-word (foreign language) hits are automatically superior to "two word" (English language) hits (it depends on the two words selected. Don't have that problem with the one word) is not crisp logic IMO. Student7 (talk) 17:51, 10 December 2011 (UTC)

I don't care how many words are in the title. I care which words are in the reliable sources. WhatamIdoing (talk) 02:29, 11 December 2011 (UTC)

And if they are all Japanese RSes? While it would be unusual, there is nothing against policy about that.∞陣内Jinnai 16:14, 11 December 2011 (UTC)

Then one follows WP:ENGLISH#No_established_usage_in_English-language_sources, which in such a case would use the Japanese name (assuming the reason that all of the RSes are in Japanese is because it's a Japanese-related subject). WhatamIdoing (talk) 03:20, 13 December 2011 (UTC)

Just a quick note... Christies auction house] (one of the more prestigious auction houses in the US) appears to accept and use the Japanese word "Fumi-e" to describe these objects (although it also uses the word "Icon")... so at least one reliable English Language source uses the term. So I am not sure that WP:ENGLISH#No_established_usage_in_English-language_sources applies in this case. Blueboar (talk) 13:19, 14 December 2011 (UTC)

Shouldn't these be in English

I'm not really all full on 100% positive, but shouldn't these three pages be titled in English?:

• Littérature et engagement: Mongo Beti, un écrivain conscient de son devoir envers son peuple?
• Togoo: la démocratie introuvable
• Grand prix littéraire d'Afrique noire

It seems to confirm so at Wikipedia:Naming conventions (books) (Which I should have began this discussion, but that talk page is not watched very often, and the last thread was begun in August, and did not get a single reply, so I decided to start the discussion here, in hopes of getting a broader opinion base), and at Wikipedia:Naming conventions (use English). I don't know the translation or I may have just done it myself. I could look it up, but am too afraid of stepping on toes or pissing someone off (Which never happens in our little land of Wikipedia).--JOJ ^Hutton 00:02, 24 November 2011 (UTC)

Are there verifiable English names by which these are known? If not, leave them untranslated. Dicklyon (talk) 01:34, 25 November 2011 (UTC)

Even less English is Chhatrapati Shivaji Maharaj Vastu Sangrahalaya. I have a requested move for this one, which is active. (No one has voted so far. Be the first.) Another example of a non-English title is Praha hlavní nádraží. Kauffner (talk) 02:36, 25 November 2011 (UTC)

Talk:Libingan ng mga Bayani#Rename comes to mind. Wtmitchell (talk) (earlier Boracay Bill) 03:56, 25 November 2011 (UTC)

I don't know if there are verifiable English names,I don't speak whatever language that is. All I know is that its not English.--JOJ ^Hutton 12:34, 25 November 2011 (UTC)

If there's no verifiable English name, we must use the original. Sometimes there just isn't a commonly used English name. Consider La traviata and Der Freischütz, for example, whose titles are not easy to translate and thus are pretty much always named in the original languages. Heimstern Läufer (talk) 15:11, 25 November 2011 (UTC)

WP:TITLE says, "In deciding whether and how to translate a foreign name into English, follow English-language usage. If there is no established English-language treatment for a name, translate it if this can be done without loss of accuracy and with greater understanding for the English-speaking reader." WP:Naming conventions (books) says, "books that haven't been published in English (yet) are preferably referred to by an English version of the title." So to answer the original question, yes, the titles need to be translated. Kauffner (talk) 15:17, 25 November 2011 (UTC)

That sounds like a bug in the guideline. Translation is appropriate for descriptive title, but less so for articles on titled works. Or perhaps the clause "if this can be done without loss of accuracy" covers that case; if we make up a translation for a title work, it will certainly not have "accuracy"; an approximate translation can always be put into the article, and even as a redirect if that's helpful for some reason. But we shouldn't make our own translations of titles. Dicklyon (talk) 17:27, 25 November 2011 (UTC)

From what I can tell, our naming guidelines are a fair mess of contradictions, I suspect because of the differing opinions of those who've written them. I don't think there's a lot of good to be had in citing them. Instead, let's remember that reliable sources are fundamental and no Wikipedia guideline should ever be interpreted in isolation from that. If we have no or inadequate reliable sources for an English name, it doesn't belong as an article title, as no guideline can override the need for reliable sources. Heimstern Läufer (talk) 01:53, 26 November 2011 (UTC)

I agree. The problem is Anglophone affinity for new words allowing nearly anything that is barely comprehensible and labeling it/them as "interesting," rather than the official policy of "have not entered the English language and therefore not allowable." As I've mentioned above, I have my hands full with Japanese.

The admins are worried about vandals eventually overwhelming the project. I think in the near term, the danger is more non-English terms and articles.Student7 (talk) 20:50, 27 November 2011 (UTC)

I think you must have misundersood or imagined something somewhere along the line. There is no rule or policy or anything forbidding "non-English terms". If we're making a choice between two terms, then insofar as the choice is made based on commonness of usage, it's commonness of usage in reliable English sources that we emphasize. But if a "foreign" term is commonly used in English, or if there is no alternative, or the use of any alternative would result in (say) loss of accuracy, then it's perfectly fine to use the foreign term. Just as any other writer of English would in such a situation.--Kotniski (talk) 08:36, 28 November 2011 (UTC)

But it has to have entered the English language. Like Samurai, Mikado, Ninja, and Shinto. The words above have not yet entered the English language, and (in the case of Fumi-e) probably won't. Is there a reason, or is there no reason for the WP:ENGLISH policy? Can this simply be ignored? If so, why can we not expect entire articles, in (say) simple French or German. Many of us could probably figure them out. No limitation? Why not? Student7 (talk) 22:40, 28 November 2011 (UTC)

No, it doesn't "have to have entered the English language". That standard tells you whether the word itself is now considered English, not whether it's the right choice for the title.

Please actually read the guideline you're citing. It says, for example, that if a "native version is more common in English-language usage, the English name should be mentioned but should not be used as the article title." That is, WP:ENGLISH says not to use the English name in some situations. WhatamIdoing (talk) 23:40, 28 November 2011 (UTC)

I have, BTW, just updated ENGLISH to deal with the case of established usage, especially when the established usage in English sources (e.g., for La traviata) is plainly not to use the English translation. The cases of "divided usage" and "no established usage" were pre-existing. WhatamIdoing (talk) 00:01, 29 November 2011 (UTC)

Student, surely you can see the difference between writing an article (or a sentence) in a foreign language, and writing it in English but including an occasional foreign word for which no accurate English equivalent exists? Doing the second doesn't set us on a slippery slope towards doing the first.--Kotniski (talk) 09:45, 29 November 2011 (UTC)

La Traviata is a common opera performed in English-speaking countries. It probably would not be recognized in its translation. So it is the "common name in the English-speaking world." Gozoku doesn't come close. There's a long o which doesn't appear on my keyboard. (Another gripe, it misses searches for that reason). No one but a few Japanese specialists would recognize it at all. It translates easily as "lord" or "liege lord." So the only reason for not using English is the Anglophone affinity for the shorter word. But our automatic affinity should not be the basis for attempting to make the word part of the English vocabulary when it isn't and never has been. Unlike La Traviata which has been around for a century, I suppose. Wikipedia editors did not force it onto a populace which had never heard of it before. That isn't our job anyway. Student7 (talk) 19:57, 29 November 2011 (UTC)

You still seem to be seeing demons that aren't really there. No-one is trying to force new words into the language or onto people - they're just trying to convey, in English, certain concepts that are best expressed in encyclopedic English by using some words that are not normally part of "English vocabulary". This is perfectly normal practice among writers everywhere.--Kotniski (talk) 09:02, 30 November 2011 (UTC)

So is the threshold (if there is one) "Use English if you can, but if not, what the heck?" It seems to me that there have been inadequate attempts to translate easily translatable terms into English.

As an example, try looking at the bible. We are still frustrated today at the fact that Ancient Hebrew/Aramaic and Modern English do not translate one-for-one (true of any language but worse with non-European ones). The few words that trickle through in ancient Hebrew are (ironically) words in which the reader could usually care less about. But a valiant effort was made.

For Japanese articles/names, particularly, there is a certainty on the part of the translator that Europeans/English "couldn't possibly" have a similar event/problem/word. This is usually untrue. I don't see where the effort has been made. "Liege" serves perfectly well for gozoku, for example. But the pretense was made that no comparable word existed in English.

This is perhaps true for "samurai." The European feudal system did have knights as a "standing army" but not quite samurai. "Japanese knights" might not have sufficed. But this is not true of every single feudal word, or non-feudal one. Feudal systems didn't differ that much! And modern Japan has rather deliberately copied Western models. Student7 (talk) 22:49, 2 December 2011 (UTC)

Samurai (ninja, katana and the like) have also entered the English language as commonly used terms.∞陣内Jinnai 22:58, 2 December 2011 (UTC)

And we generally follow the pattern in English-language reliable sources. If Gōzoku is the name used in reliable sources for the concept of a liege lord in a particular point in Japanese history, then we use it, too. It's not up to Wikipedia editors to decide whether "liege lord" is an adequate translation. WhatamIdoing (talk) 18:20, 6 December 2011 (UTC)

It might be nice if these were reliable (scholarly) sources written in English! Student7 (talk) 13:45, 7 December 2011 (UTC)

Principle of least astonishment

I think it would be a big help and clarification to incorporate the principle of least astonishment in this policy. (And that article needs to be expanded because the principle applies to much more than user interface design, software design, and ergonomics.) --Espoo (talk) 21:44, 25 November 2011 (UTC)

Why has this become such a fashionable suggestion at the moment? Has somebody started a new cult and not invited me? --FormerIP (talk) 22:00, 25 November 2011 (UTC)

I am likely to agree with the proposal; but I would like to see the matter fleshed out with examples. Elaborate, please?

Noetica^Tea? 22:07, 25 November 2011 (UTC)

To get the discussion started, I have drafted a proposed change to the common names section of the policy, as follows (addition in green):

Current text

Titles are often proper nouns, such as the name of the person, place or thing that is the subject of the article. The most common name for a subject is often used as a title because it is recognizable and natural; one should also ask the questions outlined above; ambiguous or inaccurate names for the article subject, as determined by reliable sources, are often avoided even though they may be more frequently used by reliable sources. Neutrality is also considered; our policy on neutral titles, and what neutrality in titles is, follows in the next section. When there are several names for a subject, all of them fairly common, and the most common has problems, it is perfectly reasonable to choose one of the others.

Replacement text

Titles are often proper nouns, such as the name of the person, place or thing that is the subject of the article. The most common name for a subject is often used as a title because it is recognizable, natural and upholds the principle of least astonishment, i.e., when a majority of people are familiar with a certain topic by a particular name, and thus are likely to search Wikipedia for the topic by that name, they should not be astonished when they find the topic existing here under an unfamiliar name. However, one should also ask the questions outlined above; ambiguous or inaccurate names for the article subject, as determined by reliable sources, are often avoided even though they may be more frequently used by reliable sources. Neutrality is also considered; our policy on neutral titles, and what neutrality in titles is, follows in the next section. When there are several names for a subject, all of them fairly common, and the most common has problems, it is perfectly reasonable to choose one of the others.

--Fuhghettaboutit (talk) 22:31, 25 November 2011 (UTC)

Seems reasonable to me. Although it does sneak in the concept of looking at what people would search, which I think might be used for skewing the way common names are determined. This could be interpreted as meaning we should prefer the short forms that people use for searching with, like for example writing "US Constitution" to get to the United States Constitution or writing "Fed" to get to the Federal Reserve System, instead of the current names which widely used by our sources.TheFreeloader (talk) 22:51, 25 November 2011 (UTC)

Hmmm. Good. But the wording is not optimal. Readers' astonishment is not something we can make rules for! We can only set out principles that are likely to diminish the likelihood of such astonishment.

And I would also want this converse principle: "Minimise the probability of readers being astonished to find an unexpected topic when they go to an article." A resident of Cape Town looking at Little Bow, for example, when Khoisan weaponry is the topic of interest. (And don't talk to me about capital letters as disambiguators, please!)

Noetica^Tea? 23:01, 25 November 2011 (UTC)

I don't understand what you are saying. How is your addition "converse"? Perhaps all of you could take a look at Talk:Flim-flam for a simpler example and participate in that discussion and Wikipedia_talk:Disambiguation#Naming_the_disambiguation_page. --Espoo (talk) 06:05, 26 November 2011 (UTC)

Two sorts of astonishment might occur:

1. A reader is astonished to find that searched-for topic is covered under an unexpected title.
2. A reader is astonished to find that an article consulted does not deal with the hoped-for topic.

These are converse, or complementary, or mutually reversed. In 1, the topic is certainly covered; but the expected title or titles may be missing altogether. In 2, the topic may not be covered anywhere; at least it is not found where it had been expected. The wording proposed deals only with 1:

... –when a majority of people are familiar with a certain topic by a particular name, and thus are likely to search Wikipedia for the topic by that name, they should not be astonished when they find the topic existing here under an unfamiliar name ...

But I gave an example of type 2.

Noetica^Tea? 08:49, 26 November 2011 (UTC)

Are there any examples of this actually being an issue with regards to article titles? -- Eraserhead1 <talk> 08:55, 26 November 2011 (UTC)

Do you think that the second sort is less common than the first sort? Happens to me all the time. How about French Quarter, consulted from here in Australia? Or type "lawn garden" progressively into the search box and see the prompts as they evolve; then look at the article you end up with. The example for Little Bow is a good illustration. I can't say that it has happened. But note: most of the anglophone world is not in Alberta, Canada. Type "little bow" into the search box slowly. Do the same with "big bow", then "long bow", and then "short bow". Take a deep breath; put yourself in the position of a naive interrogator of Wikipedia who knows nothing of the principles in WP:TITLE or any other concerns that we have firmly in view. And ask yourself: is astonishment of the second sort at all improbable?

Noetica^Tea? 09:38, 26 November 2011 (UTC)

I'm not really sure how we can solve this problem, I suppose we could make French Quarter a disambiguation page if its unclear, but we can do that anyway if it can be shown that a lot of sources don't use it to refer to district of New Orleans. -- Eraserhead1 <talk> 09:54, 26 November 2011 (UTC)

I don't think this change is actually helpful. It's not wrong; it's just not producing any extra value despite adding many extra words. WhatamIdoing (talk) 00:03, 29 November 2011 (UTC)

Besides the point made above about common search terms often not being professional or encyclopedic sounding, there's also the problem that the concept of astonishment is so culturally specific that I worry that enshrining it as policy would lead to more POV warring. I think Brits might not like the result: Since they tend to be familiar w American expressions, but not vice versa, 'least astonishment' would suggest titling everything in American English. The concept of astonishment is already covered w current criteria like CommonName, and that's probably sufficient. — kwami (talk) 23:27, 2 December 2011 (UTC)

Input needed at WT:MOSTM

Editors (especially any with expertise in intellectual property law, or corporate law) may wish to contribute at Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Trademarks. The issue of extending the coverage of the page to trade names as well as trademarks may not be as simple or automatic as some assume.

Noetica^Tea? 22:07, 25 November 2011 (UTC)

Could be worth a note at the VP. And mid next week, when I'll have more time for WP, I could hunt down some legal-eagles via categories and page histories. Tony (talk) 03:39, 7 December 2011 (UTC)

When each reliable source uses two different names for a subject, which name is the common name?

Specifically, I just closed a discussion at Talk:Kodak#Moving_back_to_"Eastman_Kodak" as "no consensus" because editors couldn't agree on this point: business articles discussing the company generally start in the first sentence with "Eastman Kodak", but then through the body of the article shorten this to "Kodak". Some editors argue that this means "Kodak" is the common name for the company; other editors argue that using "Kodak" in the body of the article is just convenience, analogous to using "Obama" in the body of an article which started by referring to "Barack Obama". Which is correct? Edit: I'm looking more for answers regarding the general case of when our reliable sources use two different names like this; if you answer only regarding Kodak, it's not as helpful.--Aervanath (talk) 17:43, 6 December 2011 (UTC)

Commonness isn't the only criterion, and you might find it easier to resolve the question by looking at the other criteria. "Kodak" is more natural (i.e., what the average American calls the company), but "Eastman Kodak" is more precise (can't be confused with the company's brand; "Eastman Kodak" is the company, but the cameras and film are just plain "Kodak") and more consistent (articles about publicly traded companies are normally given their formal names). WhatamIdoing (talk) 18:32, 6 December 2011 (UTC)

Yea, that is one good way of putting it. There are brands and there are companies. The name may or may not be the same. From an article perspective and for accurate categorization splitting brand and company articles has some advantages. Walmart is another case where the company and it's other brands are lumped in one article about the major brand. And we lack an article on the major brand. Heck, it is not even mentioned in {{Walmart}}! Vegaswikian (talk) 18:46, 6 December 2011 (UTC)

Your points were covered in the discussion, actually. After looking at the discussion, it seemed to me that none of the other criteria were decisive in this particular case (this is the first case I can recall where it came down, in my mind, to this specific issue). What do you guys think about the question I posed above?--Aervanath (talk) 00:44, 7 December 2011 (UTC)

Not necessarily disagreeing with the above answers, but to specifically answer about what to count as the common name, I agree that the full name first used in reliable sources is always the common name. "Common" name does not refer to a shortening of a full encyclopedic name just because it's used more often when mechanically counting. It means the full name as used in most reliable sources without regard as to whether it's also the topic's official, technical or scientific name. It's common journalistic practice to refer to a person or organization by its full name in the lede and thereafter repeatedly to a shortened form(s) such as surname, title or acronym only, but that doesn't make those the "common name" for titling purposes. Station1 (talk) 20:17, 6 December 2011 (UTC)

I would have opposed the move had I known of the discussion... Yes, the "official name" is Eastman Kodak... but we don't care about official names... and it is far more commonly referred to as simply "Kodak", and that is what most readers would search for. I would have opened the article with "Kodak (officially the Eastman Kodak Company) is...".

However... this is a case where we could probably go either way without any harm... no matter which name we chose as the title, the typical reader will be surprised to find themselves redirected when they search the other name. Blueboar (talk) 23:21, 6 December 2011 (UTC)

When you say "this is a case where we could probably go either way without any harm", do you mean in the case of Eastman Kodak specifically, or in the slightly more general case of both names being used in the articles we use as reliable sources?--Aervanath (talk) 00:44, 7 December 2011 (UTC)

This thread again demonstrates how we need to carefully firm up parts of WP:TITLE. Style guides and policy are meant to minimise debate (and disputes), and I find the guidance leaves us wondering about the basics. I want to be educated. It's clear, IMO, that part of the decision-making apparatus WP:TITLE shoul present as simply and briefly as possible is how to weigh up competing factors in the commonest scenarios: these competing forces can include the desirability of WP-wide consistency, what external style guides say, what is used in specialist sources (often chaotic in stylistic terms), and more general usage. It's not simple, but we're not helping editors at the moment. Examples either side of the boundaries we establish by consensus should be provided in the policy. While it may not be possible to cover every scenario, conveying a feel for the right decision-making can be conveyed/supported by examples. Tony (talk) 03:33, 7 December 2011 (UTC)

No, this thread demonstrates precisely that we don't have to. It is the sort of conversation that WP:AT was meant to inspire; that we have come to a common conclusion based on these general principles shows that they are sufficient. The only problem with it is that it didn't take place on the article talk page, and the conversation there is enough. JCScaliger (talk) 17:49, 8 December 2011 (UTC)

Ideally we'd want to avoid discussing this at all, so I agree with Tony. -- Eraserhead1 <talk> 19:06, 8 December 2011 (UTC)

A truly Utopian ideal. If somebody asks "why Kodak?" or "why Eastman Kodak?" (whichever it is), that's a discussion; especially if he gets an answer. (If he doesn't, there may be a unilateral move.) As it is, the RM is the answer to the second question (no sound reason, let's change it), and we can refer to it when the first question comes up. But the case involved, a company so closely identified with a single product, must be truly rare. JCScaliger (talk) 00:56, 9 December 2011 (UTC)

Not surprisingly, I am convinced that "common name" does not refer to a simple mechanical counting of references, but must take into account the style of the sources being used. That most reliable journalistic sources use a company's full name on first use (only shortening to a nickname or acronym later) is absolutely strong evidence that we should title our article with the full name. Powers ^T 18:57, 8 December 2011 (UTC)

Yes, I agree with Powers. That the sources often use a short form, nickname, or initialism doesn't make the short name the common name. In most sources on heart attacks, you'll find far more instances of MI than the spelled-out myocardial infarction in the world, but that doesn't mean that MI is the common name. We also don't declare Obama to be the common name, even though almost zero sources use anything except solely his last name after the first mention, and a quick search on Obama -"Barack Obama" shows thousands of sources that never use his first name at all. WhatamIdoing (talk) 19:52, 8 December 2011 (UTC)

All very good points. that said, I do want to remind everyone that there is a distinction between a subject's name and the title of our article on that subject. Yes, the subject's name is often the best title... but they are not the same, and the the title does not have to be the subject's name if there is a better title.

Getting back to the issue: Some times title disputes comes down to a choice between two equally acceptable titles... and in those cases, all we can do is go with the one more editors prefer. In the case of "Kodak" vs "Eastman Kodak", both potential titles are more or less equally acceptable according to this policy... we may disagree as to the one we prefer, but neither is "bad". Blueboar (talk) 03:23, 9 December 2011 (UTC)

Quite so; the choice between them is partly the choice of emphasis in the article: the company as an organization, or its chief product line? We cannot decide that here, a priori. JCScaliger (talk) 19:17, 9 December 2011 (UTC)

Ambiguous or inaccurate names, versus common names

Which naming principle should take precedence, #1 avoiding ambiguous or inaccurate names, or #2 using the common name as found in reliable sources? The recent, highly controversial move of the People's Republic of China to "China" relies upon the latter. Related to such are other articles Hirohito and Ireland. Ngchen (talk) 03:56, 8 December 2011 (UTC)

Are you asserting that these common names are ambiguous? or inaccurate? Dicklyon (talk) 04:34, 8 December 2011 (UTC)

Yes Those who are familiar with the complicated history will note that despite its claims, the PRC never succeeded in taking over "all" China. Precision would have the PRC listed under "People's Republic of China." If one examines the discussions that took place with regard to the renaming, one will find that it was very controversial for this very reason. Related to such is a drive to rename "Republic of China" to "Taiwan," which would cause even more grief since the ROC didn't possess Taiwan when it was founded, but is largely limited to Taiwan de facto today. That being the case though, it's true that the common names for the two sides are China=PRC, and Taiwan=ROC. It's also instructive to look in the archives of the Chinese-naming conventions. Ngchen (talk) 18:27, 12 December 2011 (UTC)

I don't really see how there is any inaccuracy or ambiguity in the use of China to refer to the People's Republic.

And the fundamental difference with Ireland is that the term is regularly used to refer to the whole island rather than just the Republic. -- Eraserhead1 <talk> 08:01, 8 December 2011 (UTC)

I also dispute the use of the term "highly controversial" - please see WP:CONSENSUS and WP:NOTVOTE. -- Eraserhead1 <talk> 08:15, 8 December 2011 (UTC)

This striving for accuracy is misplaced. Words are created by humans and given the definition humans give them. A name, being a representation of the object itself, can't be inaccurate. A rose by any other title would have the same subject. Chipmunkdavis (talk) 10:37, 8 December 2011 (UTC)

From everything that I've read, the WP:CONSENSUS on the change to that article ran counter to what the 3 Admins did. They contravened WP:CONSENSUS. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 159.53.78.140 (talk) 18:01, 8 December 2011 (UTC)

No they didn't. The move arguments were stronger and much better backed up by policy. -- Eraserhead1 <talk> 18:08, 8 December 2011 (UTC)

That is an outright untruth, and I encourage you to continue to propagate it. The arguments were not any stronger than they were in 2008. Essentially, the move faction was asking for a consensus simply for the sake of a consensus, meaning the decision process was entirely rushed. If I recall correctly, one of the administrators had been a major participant in the discussions and had effectively already made up his mind before he joined the so-called triumvirate. GotR ^Talk 21:23, 8 December 2011 (UTC)

The editor who had participated in previous discussion is well known for mediating complex move discussions. And the arguments were stronger than they were in 2008 as no massive list of sources showing overwhelming usage for China to refer to the PRC was produced. -- Eraserhead1 <talk> 21:26, 8 December 2011 (UTC)

That you personally disagree with the outcome doesn't make it invalid or 'not consensus', GotR. I wasn't involved in the move discussion and had no firm opinions on which name was more appropriate until I read the discussion. The admin decision was correct, the move arguments were stronger, better seated in Wikipedia's policies and generally far more persuasive. I do understand that you, being of the opposing viewpoint in that discussion, disagreed with its outcome, but crying foul is uncalled for. The whole reason three admins were involved in the decision was to make it clear that it wasn't simply a case of bad judgement or misinterpretation. TechnoSymbiosis (talk) 22:17, 8 December 2011 (UTC)

Short answer: it depends.

As a general rule, I think we need to be careful about counting uses by "reliable sources". We should not necessarily count uses that are not intended by the source to be (a) neutral and (b) unambiguous without reference to context. This means that there is no single answer for which takes precedence; we need to consider the semantics of the individual case and other policies such as WP:NPOV.

• Non-neutral names: The apparent common name may actually be the common name for a particular view of the subject. For instance a particular name for a geopolitical entity may be used to imply acceptance of a claim to an exclusive mandate. If the author of a particular "reliable source" has a point of view that is not shared by virtually the entire English language community, it may be appropriate to discount such use when determining the common name.
• Ambiguity without reference to context: When talking about unique entities (e.g. Barrack Obama) we should count only those uses that are intended to refer unambiguously to a unique entity without reference to context. In context, "the President" or "he" may be unambiguous, but such uses should be ignored.

Naturally, individual cases are a matter of judgment. It is fairly obvious that "the idiot in the Oval Office" should be ignored for both reasons, regardless of frequency of use. It is not obvious (but could be argued) that "Ireland" should be ignored, as an article title candidate for the state, when used by authors who believe that the sovereign state of Ireland should include the whole territory of the island of Ireland. Queen Elizabeth II may also be potentially ambiguous but chosen because normal methods of disambiguation by country are inappropriate in this particular case.--Boson (talk) 12:16, 8 December 2011 (UTC)

The answer to the question of which principle takes precedence is: Neither. In choosing the best title for an article we should consider the issue of Recognizably (or commonality as demonstrated by use in reliable sources), and precision (or ambiguity) at the same time (and we would also consider issues of naturalness, conciseness and consistency at the same time as well).

That said... and as we say in the policy... sometimes it may be necessary to favor one or more of the principles over the others. Which gets favored will be different from article to article, because each article is unique and has unique factors that need to be considered when choosing a title. Thus, the determination of which principle should take precedence in choosing any specific article title is ultimately determined by consensus - and the consensus about one article may well be different than the consensus about another. That is both intentional and OK. Blueboar (talk) 14:05, 8 December 2011 (UTC)

I agree with the other commenters: There is no single principle that always trumps any of the others. Editors are going to have to use their best judgment, taking all the facts and circumstances into account for the specific article in question. (If it was as simple as "Always prefer this particular principle", then we'd have already written that into the policy.) WhatamIdoing (talk) 19:55, 8 December 2011 (UTC)

In other words this is the spirit of the fifth of Wiki's Five Pillars. A tragedy that this has been overlooked. GotR ^Talk 21:23, 8 December 2011 (UTC)

Please read WP:AGF. Our Five Pillar principles and our varying policies were not overlooked, they were weighed by many of the editors involved in the discussion on both sides. It's fine that you disagree with the outcome, but you need to stop implying or outright alleging that the final decision, made unanimously by three separate admins, was done ignorantly or in bad faith. TechnoSymbiosis (talk) 22:22, 8 December 2011 (UTC)

It is not as if I am assuming bad faith, it is merely that the facts are incontrovertible. Moreover, I see zero evidence to assert your first claim as it relates to the move faction.

Regarding the ROC discussion, you cannot say that everyone participating in a discussion will be fully cognizant of the subtleties of the differences of a few terms. In fact, one editor admitted himself he failed to do exactly that. The ability and willingness to do this is very important in life in general and crucial for an encyclopaedia that wishes to build itself up as an authority; again I am not implying that some are definitely wanting to compromise Wiki but their actions certainly have that effect. GotR ^Talk 22:39, 8 December 2011 (UTC)

You likewise have no evidence that people failed to take account of relevant policies, especially as applied to the three admins that made the decision. An editor saying he failed to take something into account is hardly a reflection on the large number of people who were involved in the discussion, and even if a lot of editors had voted poorly, the admins would have disregarded weak arguments in their decision. It's really not appropriate to be making assumptions about how people came to the conclusions they did that aren't explicitly stated in their reasoning. The move request was a discussion, of course people aren't necessarily going to be fully aware of every aspect, but editors can and do change their votes based on the persuasive arguments of other editors. The closing admin's job is to assess all of the discussion, weigh the merits of each argument against Wikipedia's policies, and determine which is the strongest and most supported argument out of the valid arguments. There's no reason to assume that the admins didn't do their job in this respect and discount arguments (on both sides) that weren't strong enough or were outright invalid. TechnoSymbiosis (talk) 22:47, 8 December 2011 (UTC)

It might help to point out that "ambiguity" isn't normally considered a weakness of an article title provided that the subject of the article is the WP:PRIMARYTOPIC for the title. We don't mind titling an article Michael Jackson even though there are many other people, some fairly notable, with that name. Similarly we don't mind titling an article China even though there are other entities that are or have been referred to as China. Nearly all WP articles on modern countries are titled using the common short form of the country's name, and it was highly egregious to do differently for that one (for no apparent reason except something to do with Taiwan that has no influence on the English-speaking world's actual usage of the term "China").--Kotniski (talk) 11:35, 9 December 2011 (UTC)

ArbCom election reminder: voting closes soon

All editors are reminded that voting closes for ACE2011 in just over a day's time (Saturday 10 December at 23:59 UTC). To avoid last-minute technical logjams, editors are asked to vote at least an hour before the close, that is, by:

• Saturday 15:00 (3 pm) on the west coast of North America;
• Saturday 18:00 (6 pm) on the east coast of North America;
• Saturday 23:00 (11 pm) in the UK and Ireland;
• Sunday 01:00 (1 am) in South Africa;
• Sunday 06:00 (7 am) on the west coast of Australia; and
• Sunday 10:00 (10 am) on the east coast of Australia; and
• Sunday 12:00 (12 noon) in New Zealand.

For the election coordinators. Tony (talk) 14:06, 9 December 2011 (UTC)

Wikipedia:Naming conventions (cuisines)

Could someone add Wikipedia:Naming conventions (cuisines) to the list of naming conventions? --Jeremy (blah blah • I did it!) 05:49, 12 December 2011 (UTC)

Weakening the wording of WP:ACRONYMTITLE

Of late, I've been involved in a few page move discussions (most notably for USB, which is currently at DRN) related to WP:ACRONYMTITLE. In my opinion, the present wording is overly strong and doesn't reflect the general consensus on titles (particularly WP:COMMONNAME). Suggested rewording of the section in WP:NAME:

Avoid ambiguous abbreviations

Abbreviations and acronyms are often ambiguous and thus should be avoided unless the subject is known primarily by its abbreviation and that abbreviation is primarily associated with the subject (e.g. NATO, laser, USB). The abbreviation UK, for United Kingdom, is acceptable for use in disambiguation. It is also unnecessary to include an acronym in addition to the name in a title. For more details, see WP:ACRONYMTITLE.

And the corresponding line in WP:ACRONYMTITLE:

An acronym or initialism should be used in a page name if the subject is known primarily by its abbreviation and that abbreviation is primarily associated with the subject (e.g. NATO, laser, USB). In order to determine the prominence of the abbreviation over the full name, consider checking how the subject is referred to in popular media such as newspapers, magazines, and other publications.

Thoughts? As it stands, the wording plainly doesn't reflect the way moves are being closed, as the community seems to prefer WP:COMMONNAME to override the "avoid" stance unless there's genuine cause for confusion. Chris Cunningham (user:thumperward) (talk) 12:58, 12 December 2011 (UTC)

I agree with this. There is no real good reason to be avoiding acronyms in general. If they are ambiguous and not the primary topic, then of course consider using the full name. But I don't think there should not be made any special exceptions from WP:COMMONNAME for acronyms.TheFreeloader (talk) 16:14, 12 December 2011 (UTC)

I would agree with this proposal. It seems that WP:COMMONNAME is not only more strongly supported but actually works better. It seems unhelpful to name articles not according to how they are best known. I think the policy should be that, unless there is an issue with ambiguity (ie, the common names of two equally notable/common/searched for objects are the same), an acronym is an acceptable common name and title. ItsZippy ^{(talk • contributions)} 19:49, 12 December 2011 (UTC)

I think we need to be careful here with swinging the pendulum too far. USA is a very common acronym for United States of America and the primary use of USA acronym in general. However, I do not believe that article would be better served by changing the country name to an aconrym and it would be hotly cotested if COMMONNAME were to apply. I'd say it would have to very clear that the acronym was more common before it should replace the word usage. If its close or unclear, it should not.∞陣内Jinnai 20:09, 12 December 2011 (UTC)

Ah yes, I hadn't thought of that. I think the distinction between USB and USA is that people understand United States of America and use the name America as commonly as USA; with USB, the term Universal Serial Bus is not so well known, nor is any variant other than USB used. A policy would have to encompass that nuance, I think. That is, if policy is the best way to deal with the issue. ItsZippy ^{(talk • contributions)} 22:04, 12 December 2011 (UTC)

Indeed. Even if "USA" is the dominant name for the subject, it is not strongly so next to the alternatives. Chris Cunningham (user:thumperward) (talk) 09:21, 13 December 2011 (UTC)

I am not sure if we need to change the policy. USB is like NATO, overwhelmingly referred to by its accronym... so it is already covered. Blueboar (talk) 23:56, 12 December 2011 (UTC)

It seems to me that both the current and proposed wording support USB rather than Universal Serial Bus, United States of America rather than USA, and NATO and Laser over whatever they stand for. So I don't have a problem with the change, nor the current wording. Practically speaking, I don't see a difference.

Does anyone know of a case where the proposed wording would indicate a different title from the current wording? --Born2cycle (talk) 00:41, 13 December 2011 (UTC)

"USA" is a bad example, without recognizing that "USA" is already outlawed (or whatever word satisfies the "it's only a guideline" people) at the "US and U.S." paragraph of [[MOS:#Abbreviations]]. Art LaPella (talk) 02:07, 13 December 2011 (UTC)

Huh, I'd never noticed that before. It's interesting that you mention it now, because the folks at Meta (who are working on the revised terms of use for all WMF sites) are unhappy with "United States". It turns out that "USA" is unique, but "United States" is distinctly ambiguous for a substantial number of Spanish speakers (since it can refer either to the United States of America or to the United States of Mexico). WhatamIdoing (talk) 03:37, 13 December 2011 (UTC)

The thing is, in several cases people have argued that the wording prohibits the likes of "USB" (another recent example which subsequently passed unopposed was OLED). Weakening the wording a little would hopefully prevent situations where people make arguments based on a reading of the guideline which is stronger than intended. Chris Cunningham (user:thumperward) (talk) 09:24, 13 December 2011 (UTC)

I have to oppose this strongly, except for acronyms that have been reassimilated into the language as simple words (scuba, radar, laser). Already it is far, far too frequent for editors, especially newer ones, who outnumber the experienced ones, to use only the acronym when referring to something they know and just assume everyone does. I've sometimes fixed that error 5 times in one day, without even looking for them. The change suggested here would turn this annoying trickle into a flood, and it would be very problematic, because the editors who do this often either link only to an acronym that ends up being a disambiguation page or they don't link at all, leaving later editors to guess where they're trying to point. Given that the acronym will redirect to the full article title, or to a necessary disambig page, there isn't any utility at all to putting the article at the acronym name. Especially for something like NATO. It's instantly and undeniably useful to have the real, full name be the title, since you see the title and the acronym expansion and now know what it means. If it were normal to have the articles be at the acronym, in many cases stub articles on such topics would be written without expanding the acronym anywhere at all. The current system isn't broken in any way, so don't "fix" it. — SMcCandlish Talk⇒ ʕ(^Õل^ō)ˀ Contribs. 01:43, 17 December 2011 (UTC)

I avoided commenting on this one but I'm inclined to side with SMcCandlish on this, and I'd go as far as to say I think the guideline needs strengthening, not weakening. I think there's a fine line in what constitutes a different name for the purposes of WP:COMMONNAME. I didn't participate in the vote but I agree with the move of People's Republic of China to just plain China because they're different names, and one is the far more commonly used one. But I would treat acronyms differently - an acronym and its expanded version are fundamentally the same name, just being rendered differently. NATO and the North Atlantic Treaty Organisation should be treated at a fundamental level as the same thing with respect to article titles, and as SMcCandlish mentioned, the latter is far more appropriate for an encyclopedia title. USB being there instead of at Universal Serial Bus sits very uncomfortably with me here. TechnoSymbiosis (talk) 22:28, 18 December 2011 (UTC)

Variations on precision

Related discussion on using qualifiers when not needed: Wikipedia talk:WikiProject New York City Public Transportation#Using qualifiers when no ambiguity exists -- JHunterJ (talk) 13:39, 14 December 2011 (UTC)

hopelessly vague title

Can anyone give one good reason that National Tax Agency is not National Tax Agency (country name)? The title is a translation into English, too. This is where previous practices relying on "primary topic" are becoming ludicrous. I arrived there from a category list. Tony (talk) 02:47, 15 December 2011 (UTC)

I would certainly move it to NTA (Japan) or Japanese NTA, regardless of whether there is another article with that title. — kwami (talk) 02:59, 15 December 2011 (UTC)

One good reason is that it's its name.[1] Another is that nothing else on WP has the name, to the best of my knowledge. This has nothing to do with "primary topic". It's the only topic on WP using that name. Station1 (talk) 03:29, 15 December 2011 (UTC)

National Tax Agency (Japan) would be the epitome of unnecessary disambiguation. It would be unnecessary because National Tax Agency is its name, is natural, precise, concise and consistent with other titles. There is no basis in policy or practice to disambiguate this title. As has been explained countless times to you guys, the purpose of an article title for a topic that has a name is not to describe that topic, but to reflect its name.

I should also add that if the article was at National Tax Agency (Japan) it would wrongly imply that there are other topics in WP whose name is "National Tax Agency", and this one is not the primary topic. That would be misleading. --Born2cycle (talk) 05:04, 15 December 2011 (UTC)

Extremely inconvenient for readers and editors. So uniqueness trumps clarity, does it? This is a ham-fisted, easy-peasy policy we've allowed to fester into bad, misleading google hits. Tony (talk) 05:14, 15 December 2011 (UTC)

Since "clarity" about what the topic is for people unfamiliar with the topic has never been something that titles are supposed deliver, yes, uniqueness and conciseness trump clarity. For every topic there are two types of readers - those familiar with the topic and those who are not. If a reader in the latter group stumbles upon a title, the title is not supposed to tell him what the article is about - only the name of the what the article is about. Why is this so difficult to accept for about a half-dozen of you? --Born2cycle (talk) 05:27, 15 December 2011 (UTC)

Sheer blind impenetrable legalistic rule-mongering. Of course it is desirable that the title should suggest the topic in a helpful way. By the reasoning of the small coterie of zealots who serve WP:xxxxxx rather than the readers, we might as well give each article a serial number as a title, instead using English words. (Yeah yeah: I know that is against policy.) Nothing seems to jog people out of this weird obsession with parochialism and obscurity. Such a waste of potential; such a detriment to the Project. Noetica^Tea? 06:43, 15 December 2011 (UTC)

The alternative is creating bottomless quagmires of dispute. Take this example... Sure National Tax Agency (Japan) is more descriptive than National Tax Agency, but National Tax Agency (Japanese tax collecting agency) is even more descriptive. Which should we use, and why? Based on what criteria? We already have criteria, and that criteria indicates National Tax Agency. What you're proposing is a change to the criteria. Fine, propose that. But I honestly don't see how you could change the criteria to allow for more descriptive titles without creating that quagmire. --Born2cycle (talk) 07:31, 15 December 2011 (UTC)

B2C, I'm not sure where you're going with this example. Why would anyone suggest National Tax Agency (Japanese tax collecting agency)? I don't even see how it is more descriptive, let alone how it could be a serious contender. ErikHaugen (talk | contribs) 08:12, 15 December 2011 (UTC)

Is that so? Then you are, equally honestly, incapable of thinking the issue through. No one is suggesting such lengthy qualifiers as that. In the present case, "national" already marks the agency as unique for a certain nation. The only question facing our worldwide readership is this: "Which nation?" And rather than spend seven characters to show that information, you opt for retentiveness at all costs. Such an attitude is normally a manifestation of some deep-seated psychological need. In the oxygen-rich world of actual readers, it withers and good sense prevails. Here, where a certain narrow rule-boundedness wins favour, it has been allowed articially to thrive. A pity. A pity we can't clear the area of fundamentally misguided binary thinking: my way, or a "bottomless quagmire".. At least learn this, beginners: "criteria" is the plural and "criterion" is the singular. Noetica^Tea? 08:35, 15 December 2011 (UTC)

You supported Tony1 on this issue back in October, and moved a page after I mentioned it in the then current discussion. history: Financial Management Standard. -- PBS (talk) 09:33, 15 December 2011 (UTC)

While I generally dislike redundant disambiguation, I find it more of a good thing in cases like this, where the "name" on its own is really just a generic description. (It's not really "the" national tax agency, it's just "a" national tax agency which happens to be the only one that Wikipedia currently titles with those exact words.)--Kotniski (talk) 08:49, 15 December 2011 (UTC)

I'm with B2C on this. Does every article on Wikipedia about British place names now have to have nation attached to them? eg Moreton-in-Marsh --> Moreton-in-Marsh, England or should it be Moreton-in-Marsh, United Kingdom? Because as far as I can tell that would be the logic of this suggestion.

Tony1 has raised this issue twice in the last 3 months see also Wikipedia talk:Article titles/Archive 33#Article specificity (17 September) and Wikipedia talk:Article titles/Archive 33#Motion of no confidence in WP:PRECISE and WP:PRIMARY TOPIC (8 October) and it was rejected both times. Has enough time passed for this to be discussed for a third time? -- PBS (talk) 09:21, 15 December 2011 (UTC)

I definitely see where Tony and Noetica are coming from, but I think it would start us down a slippery slope where suddenly everything that has a title that isn't universally known must have a qualifier added to it. I also find it interesting that these discussions usually display our systematic bias. Or would you guys also support tacking "(United States)" onto Internal Revenue Service? Jenks24 (talk) 09:44, 15 December 2011 (UTC)

There could be a difference, though, between the ways we treat "real" names and translated names.--Kotniski (talk) 09:52, 15 December 2011 (UTC)

Their Web site says "(c) Copyright National Tax Agency Japan". In the preface of the English-language version of their annual report, it says "National Tax Agency, Japan". So that's what I'd suggest as the article title. The title should approximate what people in English-speaking countries would actually call the subject. Whenever this agency appears in non-Japanese RS, there is something that tells you it is Japanese: Japan's National Tax Agency, Japanese National Tax Agency, etc. Article titles perform the vitally important function of providing the common or most useful name of the subject. They should not be expected to be unambiguous, to identity the nation-state an entity is located in, give an individual's career, or leap tall buildings in a single bound. Kauffner (talk) 10:44, 15 December 2011 (UTC)

I agree with Kauffner's last comment.

I agree with Noetica's comments.

Kotniski, some good points.

B2C, it's not just that the way it's been set up, this uniqueness trumps clarity thing. In fact, it's worse than that: it's that uniqueness as a WP article title, as a topic that is treated in a WP article, trumps clarity and utility, both in WP categ. lists and more importantly on google search displays. For example, there can be scores of vehicle motor taxes, but the one WP means is that in Ireland. Very irritating to have to travel to the article to learn this. And the response from these realms: "Oh ... but it's the only article we have on vehicle motor tax, so finders keepers." I don't buy it. Truth is, a more nuanced, explanatory policy is required to avoid these most unsatisfactory effects.

Jenks, the "slippery slope": yes, I understand your concerns, and I too have done thought-experiments that have shown the dangers of title-bloat. So what I'm asking is that we get together and work out real examples of where the boundaries lie so we can develop guidance that allows these "National Tax Agency" tragedies to be fixed where this can be done with minimal extra characters, but so that for the overwhelming majority of cases the policy still insists on the discipline that produces brevity, succinctness. Tony (talk) 14:29, 15 December 2011 (UTC)

I agree about the "finders keepers" thing is a problem. I went to The King's Academy, but not The King's Academy (maybe the subject of that article is extraordinarily significant and this is a bad example, but my point remains). I think there is some balance we should be able to find here. ErikHaugen (talk | contribs) 15:30, 15 December 2011 (UTC)

I have mixed feelings. On the one hand, in the past, I was inclined to support the arguments in favor of pre-disambiguation of topics in specific domains for the sake of consistency, such as television episodes. It made sense to me then that the title of an article on a topic of relatively specialized interest would benefit readers by clearly indicating what type of specialized thing it was. However, pre-disambiguation was soundly thrashed in the ensuing discussion and that has been the law of the land since. I've come to accept that and support the position that unless there is ambiguity within the context of Wikipedia, then no disambiguation is necessary. However, at times I can sympathize with Tony and other's view about topics where some relatively obscure, generically named topic becomes the primary topic by default by virtue of being the only topic with that name. However, what happens to the undisambiguated title in these cases? Unless there are other topics that treat the subject sufficient to create a disambiguation page, the undisambiguated base name will redirect to the disambiguated title. So for example, if readers search for or link to National Tax Agency, they would still go to the article on the Japanese agency. So how does having a disambiguated title help such readers? And in article text, links to disambiguated titles are most often piped such that most readers would not see the dismabiguated title until they click on the link. In sum, I find Tony's irritation at having "to travel to the article to learn" that the topic is on a specific subject to be unconvincing and a poor reason for changing policy. Finder's keepers is also a red herring. If other encyclopedic topics are later created, then principles of disambiguation apply. Unless one of the topics is the primary topic, the titles would then need to be disambiguated. This happens all the time as part of how Wikipedia develops. I do not think we should be using crystal balls to try and guess which topics might possibly one day in the future have an article written on the subject that would require disambiguation. older ≠ wiser 16:04, 15 December 2011 (UTC)

Like --Born2cycle (talk) 17:41, 15 December 2011 (UTC)

older/wiser—you're missing the point about finders keepers. "finders keepers" is not a good name for it, I think, so that is understandable. I don't think anyone is saying that when a new article is made that the dab can't be created then. That isn't the point. The point is that if the topic is not the primary topic for the term, then it seems odd to name it differently just because we don't yet have articles for the other topics for the term. So, in the case of someone searching for my high school, they'll find an article about a different high school. Sure, they can figure out pretty fast that it isn't the one they were looking for. But Wikipedia is saying that this is the "The King's Academy", and my HS is not the main one. Now, I suspect that the Japanese "National Tax Agency" is in fact the "National Tax Agency" (ie, really the primary topic for the term), so I don't think it's really a problem that National Tax Agency is about the one in Japan. But generally, I don't think it's best to only disambiguate when there's "ambiguity within the context of Wikipedia". ErikHaugen (talk | contribs) 19:41, 15 December 2011 (UTC)

But that is exactly the issue -- what process of divination shall we standardize on to try and guess which topics might possibly one day in the future have an article written on the subject that would require disambiguation? If there is only one article with an ambiguous title, no disambiguation is necessary within the context of Wikpedia. As the need arises when new articles are created, then existing articles can be disambiguated appropriately. This is standard operating procedure, and aside from occasional lapses (which will happen regardless of whether guidelines say to do it one way or another), there have been few significant problems. older ≠ wiser 20:07, 15 December 2011 (UTC)

Again, you're missing the point. Even if no other The King's Academy ever gets an article, the problem remains. Not having the disambiguating parens implies something about the subject—that it is the primary topic of this term. In almost all cases, the common name for the subject either has a clear primary topic or several topics with articles; in those cases, what we do now is fine in general, I think. I'm talking about topics of marginal notability, for which there are many subjects with the same name. When considering an article like The King's Academy, no divination is required to determine whether it is the primary topic or not. Note that WP:PRIMARYTOPIC, if taken literally, supports what I'm saying, although I kind of doubt that was intentional. My claim that no disambiguating parens implies primacy on its own could be debated, of course. If we think it's true, though, then articles like this should have disambiguating parens even though we don't need to disambiguate with other WP articles. ErikHaugen (talk | contribs) 22:52, 15 December 2011 (UTC)

All it implies is that Wikipedia has no other article that competes for that title. Period. If there is no other article, then the base name would still be a redirect to the disambiguated title and that would do little or nothing to help anyone. If the article were located at The King's Academy (Coulby Newham) (or something similar), most readers would still click on links where the only visible text is The King's Academy (which might be a piped link or might be a redirect) or they would enter that into search and would be none the wiser until reaching the article. Currently the only competition for the title is a partial title match at King's Academy, which is disambiguated by hatnote. While it might satisfy some abstract notion of fairness, it would not actually help readers looking for one or the other to force them to go to a disambiguation page with only two entries. On the other hand, if you wanted to write articles for other schools with the name, or even create a list article identifying all such schools, then there might be something else to disambiguate. But as it is, having an undisambiguated title mean only that there are no other topics with that title in Wikipedia. older ≠ wiser 23:19, 15 December 2011 (UTC)

If you're missing something, then so am I. Erik, please explain what you would expect/prefer to see... nothing (redlink) at The King's Academy? A dab page with one entry? What? --Born2cycle (talk) 00:03, 16 December 2011 (UTC)

I'm not sure; I guess a dab page. It would have at least two entries at this point, though. In general, I think the answer to your question might be a dab with a link and possibly some red links. I don't think this question is the interesting one here, though. ErikHaugen (talk | contribs) 02:09, 20 December 2011 (UTC)

At the top of this section Tony wrote, " I arrived there from a category list. ". Per Bkonrad's explanation (excellent, BTW) this issue doesn't matter, except for the one context of category lists. But let's look at these; this particular article belongs to four cats.

1. Category:Tax stubs - for editors only
2. Category:Japanese government stubs - for editors only; category name itself provide descriptive context
3. Taxation in Japan - category name itself provide descriptive context
4. Revenue services - only context in all of WP where this is even an issue

I concede that for the specific context of certain category lists (general categories; specific categories provide the necessary context themselves), having more descriptive titles would be helpful. But that's the only upside there is to this, and its very limited - the main downside I see is that it would complicate our already all too contentious title decision process by adding another consideration into the mix that would apply to any topic with a unique name that is not widely recognizable to the public in general... something like... make the title sufficiently descriptive so that people unfamiliar with the topic can get a reasonable idea of what the topic is from just the title. The complications are:

1. How do we decide whether a given title is widely recognizable with just its name, or whether it needs additional descriptive information in the title?
2. If we do decide a given title needs additional descriptive information, how do we decide what that is? How much description is enough?

Further, as Bkonrad notes, there is strong consensus in the community against adding such information even for cases where #2 is not an issue because there is a convention for what the descriptive information should be (e.g., for TV episode names it is the TV series name in parentheses).

Kotniski's and Kauffner's argument for this particular case aside (special case translated names and treat them as descriptive; "Japan" is part of the name used in RS to refer to this topic, which is not an argument to add descriptive information, but to better reflect usage the most common name used in RS), I think #2 adds a lot of burden to the process for little benefit. Further, a point I keep repeating but is never addressed, there is a benefit to the reader when we disambiguate only when necessary - and that is that we inherently convey information about how the name is used in RS. That is, if we always disambiguated government agency names with the name of the country, then, for example, readers would not have an inkling of whether "Internal Revenue Service" is a name unique to the U.S. agency, or whether it's commonly used in other nations. Under the current system because it's at Internal Revenue Service, and not at Internal Revenue Service (United States), that tells us something about usage of the name "Internal Revenue Service" in RS that we would not convey if we systematically predisambiguated names that were not ambiguous with other uses.

In short, we all get where you're coming from, but what you're advocating is a solution to a little problem (improve usefulness of certain general category lists); a solution that creates problems bigger than the little one it's addressing. So, unless Tony, Noetica, et. all can come up with new arguments, I'm with PBS. Enough already.

--Born2cycle (talk) 17:41, 15 December 2011 (UTC)

One solution, specifically for categories, is to have a redirect from National Tax Agency (Japan) and place the category tag on the redirect (and a hidden comment on the article itself, to avoid duplication). This will serve those readers who navigate by categories without inconvenicing the rest of us. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 17:53, 15 December 2011 (UTC)

The unsatisfactory thing about this solution (which I know is used on various articles for various reasons) is that the category then doesn't appear at the bottom of the article itself. You really need to have the duplication.--Kotniski (talk) 17:57, 15 December 2011 (UTC)

Not really; but you are right that you need an open comment, which could be a template. "Category X appears on page Y, which redirects here." Septentrionalis PMAnderson 18:36, 15 December 2011 (UTC)

Ideally we would be able to specify a display name in the reference to the cat, something like

[[Category:Things|title + description to display in category list]].

--Born2cycle (talk) 19:30, 15 December 2011 (UTC)

Agreed. We use that syntax now to imdicate that we should alphabetize the cat using that key; displying the key should be a simple fix. Anybody want to go to bugzilla? Septentrionalis PMAnderson 22:12, 15 December 2011 (UTC)

Would it help if we made an article on Spain's "Agencia Estatal de Administración Tributaria" and called it National Tax Agency (Spain), as it's often translated? Dicklyon (talk) 00:53, 16 December 2011 (UTC)

The agency gives their English-language name as, "Spanish National Tax Agency", so it's not a problem. Kauffner (talk) 04:31, 16 December 2011 (UTC)

The "Spanish" there is a disambiguation, not a translation. There's no España in "Agencia Estatal de Administración Tributaria". Dicklyon (talk) 16:08, 16 December 2011 (UTC)

Yes, and if you could show that it's reasonably often referred to as "National Tax Agency" in reliable sources, then that's enough to move National Tax Agency to National Tax Agency (Japan) and create a two-entry dab page at National Tax Agency. That's how it works. --Born2cycle (talk) 01:12, 16 December 2011 (UTC)

Yes, I think there's a huge difference between a name that's unique because it's not used for anything else, and a name that's unique because no-one has yet bothered to write a WP article on its other uses. In the first case a reader will most likely be looking for the article we have, but in the second case they will often be looking for something else. "National Tax Agency" does not imply Japan; the fact that we only have it for Japan is simply a quirk of WP. If other countries use the phrase IRS then we should dab that name as well, unless the others are obscure, in which case we can make do with a hat note. But the Spanish NTA is no more obscure than the Japanese one, and we should reflect that regardless of whether we have an article for the Spanish NTA. Our titles should reflect external reality, not just the chance existence of a WP article. — kwami (talk) 01:17, 16 December 2011 (UTC)

It does not fit in with Wikipedia is not a crystal ball. Many subjects of biographies have the same name, but we do not make the assumption that every subject of a biography name is not unique and pre-emptively dab them. The problems it would solve for the future changing of links etc, are most likely outweighed by the initial debates of whether the first instance is then most notable (so does not need disambiguation), or whether there is another person with the same name notable enough to be included. The whole point of the current system is KISS. -- PBS (talk) 02:12, 16 December 2011 (UTC)

WP:CRYSTAL ball concerns our avoidance of predicting the future in the real world, not of the practicality of assuming that other WP articles will be necessary, even inevitable, that might have used exactly the same title. Now I see that that someone has moved Quota Elimination (WTO) to just Quota Elimination. That will be more useful in a google search. Tony (talk) 02:57, 16 December 2011 (UTC)

WP:CRYSTAL is not what I was referring to except by way of allusion. The point is that unnecessary disambiguation requires a determination by an editor that a topic is ambiguous, even though there is no evidence for such ambiguity within the context of Wikipedia. This runs squarely against WP:Verifiability. Without evidence of ambiguity within the context of Wikipedia, it is inappropriate for an individual editor to determine that a topic requires disambiguation simply because that editor knows it to be true. older ≠ wiser 03:15, 16 December 2011 (UTC)

I don't think we should bring higher principles like verifiability into this; this is the kind of editorial decision we make all the time (is X the primary topic for Y? is the mention of Y in article Z enough to warrant a hatnote at X? etc.), and isn't the same as including unsourceable statements of fact in articles. (And if policy forbids redundant disambiguation, then all those Americans who insist on including the state name in all their place-name articles, and the peerage and royalty and shipping buffs who do similar things, must be well out of order - would that it were only so.)--Kotniski (talk) 12:28, 16 December 2011 (UTC)

I understand what you're saying, but when there are no clear indications of ambiguity I'm extremely skeptical that we should be naming articles based on an individual editor's intuition that something is too generic a title for a specific topic. If discussion, preferably with input from diverse points of views and with evaluation of credible evidence rather than only likeit/dontlikeit opinions, makes a determination, that is just fine. older ≠ wiser 13:44, 16 December 2011 (UTC)

The credible evidence can be presented at move discussions even if the other topics of the term do not have wikipedia articles. There are no problems here wrt WP:V. Maybe we only want to disambiguate w/in WP anyway, but we don't need to just because of V. ErikHaugen (talk | contribs) 20:22, 16 December 2011 (UTC)

Personally I think it reasonable to declare the primary topic for "national tax agency" (however capitalized) to be Revenue service. But that doesn't solve the problem we've seen in some such cases in the past, where some obscure country (sorry, but some things are obscure to the bulk of our English-speaking readership, whether or not you want to call that "systemic bias") has a government agency or department with some generic-sounding but probably unique name (department of fishing and horticulture, or something a bit along those lines - I don't recall the exact situation). I seem to recall that in such situations consensus has quite often been that we should include the country by way of "disambiguation", not because there's real ambiguity, but because the name "sounds too generic" otherwise.--Kotniski (talk) 09:05, 16 December 2011 (UTC)

PS One such discussion was at Talk:Census and Statistics Department (Hong Kong). No consensus was reached, though a majority supported keeping the "redundant" disambiguator. Though I notice there's something of a mixture in the way such articles are titled.--Kotniski (talk) 11:45, 16 December 2011 (UTC)

And is that such a bad thing? I know we seek consistency between articles to aid navigation, but not at the expense of other principles such as naturalness and recognizability. Blueboar (talk) 12:18, 16 December 2011 (UTC)

In this case I don't see any higher principles being applied; it's just that editors happen to have decided to go one way in some cases, the other way in others.--Kotniski (talk) 12:21, 16 December 2011 (UTC)

That discussion referred to Wikipedia:Naming conventions (government and legislation), a backwater Naming Convention I hadn't come across before. But it does appear to address the specific situation here. Kotniski also may be right that national tax agency should redirect to revenue service. While I'm no fan of the royalty naming conventions, I think where there are conventions with defined scope of application, reasonable rationale, and some modicum of consensus, I really don't see much of an issue with using more specific names as the title. Personally, I'd prefer to see such cases use natural language forms rather than parenthetical, but that may just be a preference. The implication is that while natural language form might not be the most common form, it is a name that is actually used for a subject. Parenthetical disambiguators are almost never a part of the real world name of a subject and are purely a Wikipedia contrivance -- and within the context of Wikipedia, a parenthetical disambiguator generally indicates there is one or more articles at the base name, but that is not necessarily true with natural language disambiguation. older ≠ wiser 13:44, 16 December 2011 (UTC)

• There should be some scope to insert a country-name after departments and organisations that are described with an apparently very generic title. This is an international project. Of course they don't bother to put (HK) after it in HK itself (although many organisations there are likely to have the name of the jurisdiction embedded within them (from memory, for example, The Hong Kong Port Authority). I'd be inclined to do it on a case-by-case basis, and to use the shortest possible character length (Internal Revenue Service (US)), Car registration fee (UK)). We shouldn't be hostage to whether or not a body embeds the jurisdiction within its title. Our readers' needs are the same in either case. There must be a way of minimising the cumbersome and avoiding country names altogether in some cases. Isn't it a case of establishing what the balance is between familiarity to readers of en.WP and the clutter? Nor do I think our readers and editors should be hostage to whether a title is unique among WP article topics, or is unique in the real world. For example, it's very awkward that while we're allowed Fringe benefits tax (Australia) because there are also articles on the NZ and Indian equivalent taxes, we're not allowed to know where Bank account debits tax comes from. (What does Encyclopedia Brittanica do?) Tony (talk) 12:29, 16 December 2011 (UTC)

"There should be some scope to insert a country-name after departments and organisations that are described with an apparently very generic title." If there should be that, than should there also not be some scope to insert a country-name after place names that are not universally well known? Should there not also be some scope to insert the TV series name after every TV episode name? If not, what is the distinction? If so, are you suggesting that we predisambiguate all place names, TV episodes, and a myriad of other articles, too? Or are you drawing a line somewhere? If so, what is that line, and where is it?

Please convince us that you understand what you are suggesting by being clear on what exactly you're seeking; please answer these questions as completely as possible. Thanks. --Born2cycle (talk) 18:15, 16 December 2011 (UTC)

Well, I think that if you look at UK building articles, you will find many that include the location, even when disambiguation is not needed. But is adding the location disambiguation? Or do we just like to classify it as disambiguation since it is comma separated? Examples include St Botolph's Church, Heene, St Cyprian's Church, Hay Mills or St Berres' Church, Llanferres. This is just one type of example. If you look at various move discussions over the years, you will find comments rising above the background noise that favor the inclusion of information that either identifies the location of something or to give some idea what it is (say a fish or a plant). Sometimes these points get consensus. More often, they run into the the red herring of we don't pre disambiguate or someone waving the WP:PRECISION flag. But does WP:PRECISION really say that we can't include correct valid and helpful information that unambiguously identifies the topic? If so, they we need to rename a large number of articles. However if the policy is not followed in practice and does no harm, should the policy be tweaked after a discussion? Vegaswikian (talk) 19:51, 16 December 2011 (UTC)

Yes it does say that, and it should. The bad example given in the policy ("United States Apollo program (1961–75)") contains nothing incorrect or invalid, and the information will be helpful to some people; but there is no stopping on that road short of making the entire article into the title. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 21:51, 16 December 2011 (UTC)

Note that this section lists four other Churches of Saint Botolph, three of which have articles. The fourth might well - and there's still Boston itself. Any of them could be titled St. Botolph's Church; that's actual ambiguity, which needs disambiguation. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 20:02, 16 December 2011 (UTC)

That just means we need a dab page to justify the extra precision for that one. Vegaswikian (talk) 20:16, 16 December 2011 (UTC)

A dab page would be useful; but we need to disambiguate whether there is one or not - because we have several articles; so also for St. Cyprian's Church, Hay Mills and St. Cyprian's Church, Sneinton. It would take a very obscure saint indeed to have only one church in the world; not even St. Berres manages - there's one in Llanferres, but all the towns in France called Saint-Brice have the same patron. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 21:35, 16 December 2011 (UTC)

This illustrates another problem with predisambiguation - the undisambiguated base name is often neglected and remains a redlink. When this is pointed out it can be easily remedied, of course, but that's beside the point. The point is it's an inherent systemic problem with employing that approach. People are likely to overlook properly handling the base name, and years can go by before an editor becomes aware of it and fixes it.

And, yes, adding additional place information to a title is predisambiguation if the article could be at the plain base name, by definition.

The inclination to want to make a title more descriptive is understandable, and certainly achieves local consensus support in some cases, but I see no broad community support for the practice in general. It has even fallen out of favor to some extent in some categories of articles, like WP:NCROY, which arguably once was the bastion epitome of predisambiguation. --Born2cycle (talk) 21:53, 16 December 2011 (UTC)

Sigh. It would be nice to have a disambiguation page at the base name, but if nobody notices we don't have one, nobody has been harmed. If you type in St Botolph's Church into our search engine, you will get six possibilities.

These are two competing non-solutions "fixing" a non-problem. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 22:00, 16 December 2011 (UTC)

While red base names are not a problem for searches, it is a problem for disambiguation bots as they check links against disambiguation pages! If I put some text into a page and it includes a red link to a church I assume that no article has been written about the church not that there are half a dozen about different churches one of which may be the one I want! I assume the same with links to biography articles, because up to now the usual way is to write an article and then move it if later if a disambiguation is needed, or a hat note is added if the name is the primary one. -- PBS (talk) 03:49, 17 December 2011 (UTC)

FYI... Since it was raised, I have created a dab page for St Botolph's Church. Blueboar (talk) 16:02, 17 December 2011 (UTC)

The problem with predisambiguation that I brought up and the ramifications of which PBS explained with greater clarity (thanks!) is easy to dismiss precisely because it is so insidious. The article about St Botolph's church was created in 2002[2], but apparently as Boston parish church. However, it was moved to St Botolph's Church, Boston in 2007, [3], which means the St Botolph's Church redlink that Blueboar just finally fixed, and all the associated problems with it to which PBS refers, has been there for over four years. St Botolph's Aldgate has also been around since 2007. These redlinks are very difficult to find because it means undisambiguating every disambiguated title to see if anything exists at the base name.

This is just one example that happened to be raised in this discussion, but there are undoubtedly a plethora of them. Any proposal that encourages more predisambiguation just exacerbates this problem. Let's not make matters worse. --Born2cycle (talk) 21:02, 17 December 2011 (UTC)

And confusing title clarity with the red herring of predisambiguation is probably a larger problem. Vegaswikian (talk) 22:44, 17 December 2011 (UTC)

There is no confusion. We're talking about the same thing... additional precision in the title beyond just the name of the topic, if you will. The motivation for adding more precision to a title might be for clarity or it might be for disambiguation, but, mechanically, if the additional precision is not needed for disambiguation, then, by definition, it is predisambiguation, regardless of whether it's being done to add clarity or to anticipate a need to disambiguate in the future.

Ultimately, this is just a matter of semantics... how does what we call it create a problem at all, much less create "a larger problem" than the redlink one PBS and I have described? --Born2cycle (talk) 23:02, 17 December 2011 (UTC)

Parenthetical disambiguators used for context

Catholic Memorial School redirects to Catholic Memorial School (West Roxbury, Massachusetts). A move request failed, even though similar moves have been treated as completely non-controversial in the past. If this were a case where "Catholic Memorial School" was ambiguous, the failure of the move would be understandable. But that was not what was argued -- and in fact, the base name continues to be a redirect, not a disambiguation page. Rather, the argument was that the parenthetical provided necessary context.

We have absolutely no tradition of using parenthetical phrases for anything other than creating a unique page title. If we are going to start using them to provide context to the casual reader, we must update our policy documentation accordingly. Alternatively, if we are not going to start using them in that way, we need to re-inforce that determination and make it much more clear, as it apparently is not currently.

-- Powers ^T 01:28, 20 December 2011 (UTC)

I agree that it would be nice to nail this down in the guideline if it is being interpreted this way; see above: WT:AT#hopelessly vague title ErikHaugen (talk | contribs) 02:02, 20 December 2011 (UTC)

That's outrageous. As far as I can tell, there are just a few users who tend to support adding or retaining unnecessary disambiguation in titles like this (see section above). When only a few participate in these moves, four is more than enough to sway local consensus. That particular one needs to be reopened and relisted and tagged as an rfc, or a new discussion needs to start. --Born2cycle (talk) 02:15, 20 December 2011 (UTC) updated to not refer to anyone specifically. --Born2cycle (talk) 06:41, 20 December 2011 (UTC)

The discussion has been re-opened. --Born2cycle (talk) 02:46, 20 December 2011 (UTC)

What are you talking about? I don't see any recent comments of mine on any other RMs that could lead you to say that I am "behind this movement to add or retain unnecessary disambiguation in titles." Or necessary disambiguation, either, for that matter. Are you just reacting to my recent complaint about your own disruption in RMs? Dicklyon (talk) 05:35, 20 December 2011 (UTC)

Hmm, perhaps I have you confused with someone else, but if my mind is not playing tricks on me, you have favored more descriptive titles when more concise titles were unambiguous within the last year. Do you deny this? Apologies in advance if I'm mistaken about that. --Born2cycle (talk) 05:47, 20 December 2011 (UTC)

I don't deny that I sometimes favor less ambiguous titles; I'd have to see examples of what you mean to say if I've done what you say. In any case, I'm not part of any "movement". I do look at RMs and comment on some of them. Dicklyon (talk) 06:02, 20 December 2011 (UTC)

Okay, never mind. Sorry. I've updated my comment above to not refer to anyone specifically. --Born2cycle (talk) 06:41, 20 December 2011 (UTC)

OK but it's still not clear what you're claiming is outrageous, or why you re-opened this particular RM that clearly didn't have consensus to move. Dicklyon (talk) 06:44, 20 December 2011 (UTC)

It wasn't I that re-opened it. In light of the discussion above where consensus is clearly against predisambiguation, it's outrageous to retain a predisambiguated title supported largely only by those who support the predisambiguation position in the above section. That's not reflecting community consensus. --Born2cycle (talk) 06:49, 20 December 2011 (UTC)

Ah, so B2C was recalling my comments at Talk:Crime_Patrol_(TV_series)#Requested move, which had nothing to do with "retaining unnecessary disambiguation in titles", but was a "primarytopic" discussion. I admit that I have been generally opposed to a number of claims of "primarytopic" where some decent disambiguation makes more sense. As for who re-opened it, it was B2C who asked for it to be re-opened, after it had already been relisted to get a wider sampling of community consensus. It seems odd to be accusing those who participated for the low participation. As for outrageous, I think it's to be expected that sometimes the particular article decisions may seem to be not well aligned with the articulation of general principles; that not's really outrageous, just means that there's still work to be done to reflect the consensus practices in the guidelines. It's not always going to be easy. In the disambiguation question, the issue of what's "unnecessary" may be tricky, possibly depending on whether one considers the universe of existing WP titles, or the universe of topics that readers are likely to be interested in, for example. What's "unnecessary" to one may be "useful" or "crucial" to another. Dicklyon (talk) 05:50, 21 December 2011 (UTC)

Dick, this !vote comment of yours in opposition to Crime Patrol (TV series) → Crime Patrol is an example of supporting the "movement to add or retain unnecessary disambiguation in titles." In this case "TV series" is the unnecessary disambiguation because it's the primary topic. You even argue, "there's no need to claim a primary topic" because "Crime Patrol" is not "universally known". No need? Really? Because it's not "universally known"? I'm sorry, but "universal recognition" has never been a factor to be considered in deciding whether a given topic is primary or not. All that matters is recognition relative to the other uses of that name. It's the same argument because it's not really a primary topic argument; you're saying primary topic should not apply because it's not "universally recognized" - you're arguing that the unnecessary disambiguation should remain for the title to be more descriptive regardless of what WP:PRIMARYTOPIC says...

This argument of yours is similar in principal to what you said at Talk:Catholic_Memorial_School_(West_Roxbury,_Massachusetts)#Requested_move: "Unnecessary deletion of useful disambiguation." That's inverting what WP:PRECISION says, which is to avoid unnecessary precision, where "necessary" means necessary for disambiguation from other uses. It doesn't say to avoid deletion of precision that is not necessary for disambiguation; it implies the exact opposite of what you're arguing. And it has nothing to do with any other meanings of "necessary" or "unnecessary" as you try to imply it is when you say above, "What's 'unnecessary' to one may be 'useful' or 'crucial' to another.". I will also note that back on December 6th, LtPowers (talk · contribs) grouped you along with Noetica and Tony as "the opponents of this process [to remove unnecessary disambiguation]"[4], so I'm neither the first nor the only one who has noticed.

You're free to argue anything you want, of course, but to me this is an example of arguing a fringe position, directly opposed to policy and consensus-supported practice, that you and a few others support. And if you keep doing it without persuading anyone beyond your group of 3-5 editors pushing this POV, at some point that becomes disruptive. --Born2cycle (talk) 06:01, 21 December 2011 (UTC)

And you are free to call my opinions part of a "fringe position" and part of a "movement" and "outrageous". I see it more as just some reactions to the questions at hand. How you can call it "disruptive", in light of all the disruption you cause yourself, is more mysterious to me. Dicklyon (talk) 06:09, 21 December 2011 (UTC)

I don't repeatedly argue in favor of positions that are clearly contrary to policy and broad consensus support. You do. See WP:IDIDNTHEARTHAT: "... sticking to an unsupportable allegation or viewpoint long after the consensus of the community has rejected it, repeating it almost without end,... Such an action is disruptive to Wikipedia. Believing that you have a valid point does not confer upon you the right to act as though your point is accepted by the community when you have been told that it is not accepted." Consider yourself told that the point you, Tony and Notica keep repeating -- essentially, that WP would be improved if titles of articles about topics that are not universally recognized were more descriptive (a.k.a., disambiguated when the disambiguation is not necessary for disambiguation) -- is not accepted by the community. Thank you. --Born2cycle (talk) 06:19, 21 December 2011 (UTC)

You're ranting again. Whatever you think I've done that's not quite right, I certainly am not doing it "repeatedly". Am I "sticking to an unsupportable allegation"? Tell me what, if so. Has the community rejected my contention that the TV series is not the primary topic for Crime Patrol? Maybe if you lump me with others making similar points it feels like "repeatedly", but then, maybe that's a reflection of some reasonable part of the community? Dicklyon (talk) 06:33, 21 December 2011 (UTC)

Life Safety Code

• I see now that Life safety code (US fire protection) has been moved to the oh-so-clear Life Safety Code. I'm not so concerned about the caps as the impenetrability of the vaguer title. Tony (talk) 07:11, 20 December 2011 (UTC)
  • As you know, it was a revert of your unilateral move to the predisambiguated title for which there is no consensus support. --Born2cycle (talk) 07:30, 20 December 2011 (UTC)
  • Titles are allowed to be vague as long as they're unique, recognizable, concise, natural, consistent, and accurate. Powers ^T 16:12, 20 December 2011 (UTC)

    Do you realize this is a discussion about changing that guideline? Tony's point is to note a disadvantage with the status quo; reiterating what the status quo is does not seem like an effective response. ErikHaugen (talk | contribs) 16:18, 20 December 2011 (UTC)

Right, Tony and some others want the title of an article to incorporate context they feel is necessary for article titles they intuit to be ambiguous. However, there is no specific proposal as to how to do so consistently or what the scope for applicability might be. As such, in a general sense such abrogation of well-established practices is baseless. older ≠ wiser 16:42, 20 December 2011 (UTC)

Like. To emphasize: "there is no specific proposal as to how to [incorporate context they feel is necessary for article titles they intuit to be ambiguous] consistently or what the scope for applicability might be". As such, there is nothing even to discuss here. In fact, these discussions without such a proposal, and move proposals (not to mention unilateral moves) based on the premise that there is such a proposal and it has been adopted, are all very disruptive. --Born2cycle (talk) 19:00, 20 December 2011 (UTC)

Considering I started this discussion, I object to you calling it disruptive. Powers ^T 00:13, 21 December 2011 (UTC)

Sorry! I meant the ongoing discussion to which yours evolved, about changing our conventions, not the one you started. I've created a subsection to clarify this is a separate discussion. --Born2cycle (talk) 00:20, 21 December 2011 (UTC)

Erik, no, I wasn't aware this was a discussion about changing the guideline. Considering I started this discussion, though, I think my opinion might hold a bit more weight in such matters. Powers ^T 00:13, 21 December 2011 (UTC)

• • Tony, do you really think this one should be lowercase? It is not a set of laws, as the title might make you think. ErikHaugen (talk | contribs) 16:18, 20 December 2011 (UTC)
    • Erik, as I said at the top, "I'm not so concerned about the caps as the impenetrability of the vaguer title". The policy says: "In discussions about page titles, consensus has generally formed around answers to the following questions: [1] Recognizability – Is the candidate title a recognizable name or description of the topic?" Tony (talk) 06:31, 21 December 2011 (UTC)