Talk:System of a Down

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Genre

if there is evidence within the article that they do not fall under a heavy metal category, then who keeps on changing not only the genres in the side box, but also in the article at the beginning. I think that experimental rock is a good genre to put them under, but since they are more "metalish" than most rock groups, Avant-Garde Metal, which is basically metal and experimental rock mixed, is a better genre.— Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.124.28.243 (talk • contribs)

This has already been discussed here and another genre debate here (although do bear in mind, when reading through the archive, that one user continually tried to point of view push that System were emo/emo metal/emo rock/emo rock n roll so some of the posts do not reflect the general consensus). I agree that experimental is a better genre but it is recognised in the infobox. They are also well known as a heavy metal band and there is a reference for it.

Seraphim Whipp 19:29, 3 April 2007 (UTC)

im not meaning to put down System or anything, but i think calling them Avant-Garde Metal is pushing it just a little. Avant-Garde imply's that the group is pushing music into an entirely new direction, throwing away old views of what music IS and redefining it. though they are, to most, an entirely new sound in music... they arent. they're musical style is extremely Bungle influenced (Mr. Bungle being an Avant-Garde group), and repeating an existing style is polar opposite to what it means to be Avant-Garde. their style can also be related, in some ways, to Primus (some), Dog Fashion Disco and so on. both of which came before SOAD... dont get me wrong, System is quite the group but they are by no means innovative enough for the term Avant-Garde. if your into lookin up some neat Avant-Metal these days tho (since Bungle is long past gone) some good choices may be Fantomas, Buckethead, Naked City, or Secret Cheifs 3. (Avant-Garde metal is an extremely prestige and exclusive genre, not to be used lightly)— Preceding unsigned comment added by 64.25.168.141 (talk • contribs)

i just wanted to make a comment about the genre in the opening paragraph. whoever put "band", you are the smartest person i know. it makes no sense to just change the genre every 5 minutes when you have a band that to some are one genre, while to another are something different.

System of a Down are by no means nu-metal. All the bands that play the style Korn started are nu-metal. System of a Down was releasing demos before Korn.

SOAD are Nu-Metal, sorry. It has nothing to do with the age of a band, you can have Nu-Metal older then Korn realistically. It's a style, not an age group. Just because you don't like to be called a fan of nu-metal doesn't mean the band you like isn't Nu.

202.12.233.21 08:01, 3 July 2007 (UTC)

To the guy stating that the genre avant-garde metal means innovative.. well, you have the wrong idea, man. Avant-garde refers to the style the avant-garde metal bands play, like Sleepytime Gorilla Museum, for example. It is a genre. It does by no means mean that THOSE bands are INNOVATIVE. You may not think that SOAD are that innovative, but most people would disagree with you, and state that every avant-garde band isn't innovative. They're just a bunch of bands not caring about casual song structures and make music in a different way, the way they want to, innovative or not, just like SOAD, who are one of the most innovative and groundbraking bands of the 00s. So, I don't think that avant-garde metal should be included as a genre to SOAD, not because they aint innovative (because they are), but because they don't sound like an avant-garde metal band, in their style. And, for that other thing you said, about Mr Bungle being called innovative just because no one has made music like that before. They're an avant-garde band, in the genre. And they too have their influences just like SOAD. Maybe you ain't into that, but take Zappa, Gentle Giant, ELP and other fucked up bands from the seventies, and for god's sake, circus music. Bungle aren't as original as you say.Revan ltrl 15:02, 19 July 2007 (UTC)

Armenian Descent?

I may be wrong and I have no source so I haven't changed it yet but i'm almost certain that not all members of SOAD are of armenian descent as is stated in the first paragraph. I think it might be the case that john isn't. Anyone know any more? 202.12.144.21 14:39, 25 May 2007 (UTC)

I think it says in the last interview they did with kerrang that one of them is of iraq deccent though im not entirly sure i dont kkeep hold of my magazienes Samuraimather 18:51, 5 June 2007 (UTC)samuraimather

Daron Malakian is half Iraqi from his mother's side. His father is Iraqi only because he was born in Iraq, but is not of Iraqi blood. John Dolmayan.... I don't know. He is of Armenian descent but born in Lebanon, maybe his parents too. Shavo Odadjian was born in Armenia so he is Armenian. Serj Tankian was born in Lebanon too but is of Armenian descent.

I'm not sure if John and Serj are anything else other than Armenian. But Daron is half Armenian and half Iraqi, and Shavo is a full Armenian.

Vandalizing the genres

I know some genres may be disputed, but at least they have valid sources. i dont agree with nu metal, but because of its sources, i dont really care. its just when dumbasses change it it to "nu emo" and "experimental emo", while leaving the sources so it appears to be valid. this is a informational site where people could be getting information for various reasons, its not a band hate site, so just stop it.

Ugh

We're gonna end up having to fully-protect this page one day so only admins can edit it if we ask them to. Bsroiaadn^Talk 03:58, 6 June 2007 (UTC)

Fair use rationale for Image:Soad logo.png

Image:Soad logo.png is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in this Wikipedia article constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.

Please go to the image description page and edit it to include a fair use rationale. Using one of the templates at Wikipedia:Fair use rationale guideline is an easy way to insure that your image is in compliance with Wikipedia policy, but remember that you must complete the template. Do not simply insert a blank template on an image page.

If there is other other fair use media, consider checking that you have specified the fair use rationale on the other images used on this page. Note that any fair use images uploaded after 4 May, 2006, and lacking such an explanation will be deleted one week after they have been uploaded, as described on criteria for speedy deletion. If you have any questions please ask them at the Media copyright questions page. Thank you.BetacommandBot 05:12, 6 June 2007 (UTC)

Nu-Metal Quote

It's really of no consequence, but the quote Darron Stated: "They used to call us nü-metal, now they call us prog rock. I think they'll call us anything that's popular."

Is actually:

""They used to call us nü-metal, now they call us prog rock. Whatevers popular at the moment, I think that's what they'll call us."

I have the audio, it's from the Ogden Theatre in Denver, 4/27/05, following the end of "Deer Dance".

Thanks, I've corrected it along with a citation. –Pomte 07:14, 18 June 2007 (UTC)

Definitely not emo

The article can't be accurate if the band is constantly referred to as "emo" throughout the entire article. If no one can agree on a genre, it's best to just not have one.

this is the most random thing ive ever read. it says no where in the article about them being emo, and there hasn't been a person proposing this in months. why even bring it up??? 74.124.28.243 14:42, 27 June 2007 (UTC)

Not Funk Metal

i read the article about funk metal, and system has no similarities. they lack any hip hop influence. also, looking at the other bands listed as funk metal, system doesnt fit in. 74.124.28.243 14:45, 27 June 2007 (UTC)

Another genre topic

in the disputed genre part there's a {{disputed}} template ("The factual accuracy of this article or section is disputed."). Is it really needed? Many sources are used to back up the facts... Emmaneul ^(Talk) 19:02, 27 June 2007 (UTC)

Band politics

Why doesn't the thing have anything on band politics? They make songs about the Armenean Genocide, more recent wars, e.g. the Iraq war, and a lot of their music contains references to war, peace, genocide and poverty.

Nu-metal

System of a Down is NOT nu-metal. Quit saying it is. 70.122.25.223 15:15, 11 July 2007 (UTC)

i agree. nu metals main four traits - rapping, turntables, lyrics of teen angst, and bass as lead instruument - do not fit with systems sound at all.74.124.28.243 15:29, 13 July 2007 (UTC)

Well, I think they're more of a scene band rather than a band from that genre. They just appeal to nu-metalers. Maplejet 16:05, 13 July 2007 (UTC)

I personally do not agree with labeling them as numetal, but for the purposes of Wikipedia, reliable sources have been provided labeling them as such, so it should be included. It's discussed enough in the Genre Dispute section of the article. Parsecboy 16:31, 13 July 2007 (UTC)

Progressive Metal?

Eh...are you sure they fit the genre? Songs aren't very long you know... Maplejet 16:07, 13 July 2007 (UTC)

song length doesn't define the genre. 74.124.28.243 05:00, 14 July 2007 (UTC)

I also disagree with SoaD being labeled as such. They have nothing progressive (although this has nothing to do with song length). I would like to point out that it is not because a random journalist describes a band as a genre that it should be labeled so in the article, especially when it is obvious that the journalist is praising the band and/or when he/she doesn't know what he/she is talking about. I would consider restricting the infobox to a minimum of genres: Alternative metal, Alternative rock, Nu metal. Hard rock could also be added, but I don't think it's necessary. The article already has a "genre dispute" section, therefore I think it's best if we keep the infobox vague and specify in the genre dispute section. No? ZOUAVMAN LE ZOUAVE 13:27, 14 July 2007 (UTC)

I'd like to point out that the source is Rolling Stone, which has plenty of credibility, not just "a random journalist". I don't necessarily agree with them being labeled as prog metal myself, but it's sourced. (Just like I don't agree with them being labeled as nu-metal, but again, it's sourced). Parsecboy 13:41, 14 July 2007 (UTC)

SOAD sometimes play music that is progressive (Question! comes to mind). It surely isn't their main genre. They don't play progressive metal like Dreamtheater and other bands heavily influenced by traditional progressive rock. They nevertheless play progressive metal (metal that is progressive) in some occasions. Emmaneul ^(Talk) 14:00, 14 July 2007 (UTC)

Agreed. But does "in some occasions" need to be pointed in the infobox? ZOUAVMAN LE ZOUAVE 14:43, 14 July 2007 (UTC)

progressive metal is used to define bands that go against mainstream musical norms. System of a down may be creative, but not enough to put them as "progressive metal". Sheesh, every band is being put under "Progressive" as of late. If a band plays "metal that is progressive in some occasions" it doesn't make you that genre, and one Rolling Stones review doesn't make a band a genre. Zanders5k 21:05, 17 July 2007 (UTC)

Very nicely said. ZOUAVMAN LE ZOUAVE 22:06, 17 July 2007 (UTC)

In fact, I agree progressive metal is out of place, like I said "It surely isn't their main genre". I think progressive metal and its source should be incorporated in the article. By the way, what Zanders5k said is not that brillant. If playing genre X and having reliable press stating the band plays genre X still "doesn't make you that genre", then what does? Emmaneul ^(Talk) 15:58, 19 July 2007 (UTC)

Well there are idiots and ignorants everywhere, including in "reliable press". It's pretty probable that the author of the "reliable" article that claimed SoaD as avant-garde metal did not know a single thing of the genre he was mentioning. Many people don't make a difference between the different subgenres of metal, and probably don't even feel they have to. For many people, it's all the same. Now what we can do to improve the article is: keeping three genres in the infobox (nu metal, experimental rock, alternative metal), and stating all the diverse labels that have been applied to SoaD in the genre dispute section, in a similar way as in the Cradle of Filth genre dispute section. It will lead to a very simple sentence describing it all: "System of a Down has been labeled by the press as progressive metal, avant-garde metal, brutal death metal, doom metal, mallcore, and polka." With a little reference after each genre mentioned. That is most probably the best solution. ZOUAVMAN LE ZOUAVE 18:24, 19 July 2007 (UTC)

I agree that that's probably the best way to proceed with this issue. Parsecboy 19:04, 19 July 2007 (UTC)

Emmaneul, I said that one review by a popular magazine isn't really enough to make a band a genre if they are not referred to as it commonly anywhere else. Zanders5k 20:50, 19 July 2007 (UTC)

I already figured out that's what you meant, but it still isn't what you said. But let's forget it.

Zouavman Le Zouave, I could easily find 5 or more articles where SoaD is labeled as progressive metal. OK, they all might be "idiots and ignorants" but still they have a point. If you look at SoaD from an alternative rock perspective SoaD could easily be defined as prog metal (as in heavy metal that is progressive). You seem to be looking from a metal POV with a fixed definition of prog metal. Both POVs are OK, but I'm trying to be objective... and even then it still isn't their main genre. Emmaneul ^(Talk) 21:46, 19 July 2007 (UTC)

When you say "from an alternative rock perspective," it doesn't necessarily mean "from a perspective that doens't make any difference between the different subgenres of metal." Progressive metal does have a fixed definition. DragonForce uses a little growls in their last album, does that mean they are death metal? "Oh it's still not their main genre, but its certainly one of their genres," people may say. Music critics and other journalists tend to say whatever they feel like saying nowadays. It then leads to a domino effect where some kid reads it and spreads the word about how SoaD is a brutal death metal band and how their lyrics hide Satanist messages. And that leads to other journalists hearing this and replicating it in their articles. This was just an example, by the way, but this is how it works. Yes, try to be objective, but don't ignore the genre definitions. Also, Alice in Chains's Them Bones has a time signature of 7/8, and their sound is similar to heavy metal. Does that make them progressive metal? ZOUAVMAN LE ZOUAVE 11:08, 20 July 2007 (UTC)

That's the whole point... genre definitions. Genre definitions (as you or I know them) are not sacred. Different people with different musical backgrounds have different definitions. Music is no science and is highly influenced by POVs and opinions. Like I said all different POVs are OK, there is NO real truth in music. "Progressive" is just a stylistic adjunction with specific traits (just like Symphonic, Folk and Industrial). I can imagine a Tool fan looking for prog metal would be disappointed after listening to Symphony X but would be pleased to hear SoaD songs.

"Music critics and other journalists tend to say whatever they feel like saying nowadays" and the domino effect arguments are very weak. I could use those for every disputed genre in every article. We could even make a template {{idontbelievyou|band=System of a Down|genre=Nu metal}} that would generate the following text:

Music critics and other journalists tend to say whatever they feel like saying nowadays. It then leads to a domino effect where some kid reads it and spreads the word about how System of a Down is a Nu metal band. And that leads to other journalists hearing this and replicating it in their articles.

If I can easily find a couple of reviews where SoaD is labeled progressive metal then it just might be true from another POV than you have. Just be open minded about these things. We agree on the main point: prog metal shouldn't be listed in the infobox, so I'm not gonna discuss this any further. Thank you Emmaneul ^(Talk) 12:28, 20 July 2007 (UTC)

Ah okay, so we agree on this point. I am totally okay with it mentionned with all the other genres in a sentence in the genre dispute section. Like I said, I think the best way would be to list them like it is done on the Cradle of Filth article. I think in this way we can stop the infobox from being loaded with various POV's, and keep the genre dispute section for that purpose. ZOUAVMAN LE ZOUAVE 14:33, 20 July 2007 (UTC)

I agree with you ZOUAVMAN LE ZOUAVE, that the genre box shouldn't be flooded with various genres. But i think labeling them as nu metal in the genre box sums up the bands sound in the wrong way. if progressive metal is going to be taken out of the genre box, then so should nu metal. when the average person hears the genre nu metal, the first few things that come to their mind (or at least me and my friends minds) is a genre of metal that involves rapping, and lyrics of angst against parents or school for no reason. therefore, since system of a down do not really fit into nu metal compltetely, why should that genre stay in the genre box when progressive metal is being left out because soad do not fit into it completely. i think neither of them should be in the genre box. 74.124.28.243 20:21, 20 July 2007 (UTC)

The "average person" you describe obviously doesn't know that nu metal isn't defined by rapping or turntabling, although it is a fairly frequent characteristic of bands of the genre. For another thing, System of a Down has more than enough similarities with the nu metal scene and sound to have this genre in the infobox. We had this discussion before, and the decision has been made. Taking out progressive metal (which is a label which has been used a couple of times) from the infobox, okay; taking off nu metal (which is one of the labels which has been most used throughout the bands' career), no way. I am sorry if you feel I am too harsh on this, but I have made up my mind. Its for the sake of the article. ZOUAVMAN LE ZOUAVE 20:33, 20 July 2007 (UTC)

First of all, i would like to give you some praise for the the rhyming in the last sentence. "Taking out progressive metal from the infobox, okay; taking off nu metal, no way." Maybe i was being a little general with the nu metal similarities, or lack there of. Lets go through the checklist of nu metal .
Rapping - No
Turntables - No
Lyrical themes of teen angst - No (Arent they all 35+ anyway)
Hip Hop influenced drumming - No
Bass as a lead instrument - No
Nu metal like guitar - only on first three albums
if all of this isnt proof enough, the i dont know what is. so if nu metal is going to be left in the info box, why shouldn't prog metal? 74.124.28.243 20:56, 20 July 2007 (UTC)

Hahahah, hadn't noticed the rhyming I made. ^^ All of the "checklist" items you cited are indeed stereotypes, but not characteristics. I will take the following directly from the nu metal article on Wikipedia (if you don't consider that a reliable source, then I really don't know what you're doing here).

• Generally speaking, the emphasis in the music is on either communicating feelings of angst and hostility, or motivating a crowd to move with the beat. --- Yes, SoaD does not have teen angst, but it definitely does have emphasis on motivating the crowd to move with the beat. I must say, both in the music and lyrics. On "BYOB," the chorus is extremely pop-like (from an alternative rock POV) and says "Everybody's going to the party have a real good time, Dancing in the desert blowing up the sunshine" which is an incitation to dance and "move with the beat". On "Lost in Hollywood", one part says "All you bitches put your hands in the air" which is another incitation to "moving with the beat" and is sounds like something a rapper would say (that's my opinion).
• Nu metal guitarists generally make liberal use of palm muting. --- SoaD uses a lot of palm muting. First examples that pop up to my mind are "BYOB", "Radio/Video", and "Old School Hollywood".
• Another common technique with nu metal guitarists is the use of de-tuned strings whose lower pitch creates a thicker, more resonant sound. --- A technique that SoaD uses. "BYOB" is in Dropped C (I believe), but anyone with the slightest guitar knowledge would notice that SoaD are tuned down.
• This is typical of nu metal bands in that guitar solos are rare in nu metal songs in general, and when they do appear they are often short. --- SoaD have very few guitar solos, and if they do they are extremely short or do not emphasize on technicality (which, in general, is what most metal bands do in a guitar solo).
• Nu metal bands often feature aggressive vocals that range from melodic singing akin to pop and rock, guttural screaming and shouting from various forms of metal, hardcore punk, and rapping. --- SoaD uses (most of the time) melodic singing and shouting, and in some occasions uses some rap-like vocals (most notably in their "Chop Suey" intro and verses). Although it is not, properly speaking, rap, the link must be considered. I would still like to remind you that rapping does not necessarily make you a nu metal band, and that being a nu metal band does not necessarily means you rap. There are nu metal bands who don't rap, and they are still nu metal.
• Normally, nu metal songs have a song structure of instrumental introduction, verse, chorus, verse, chorus, bridge, sometimes another verse but almost always ending with a chorus. --- This is characteristic of SoaD. Most of their songs (I'm not saying all of them) have a very simple "verse-chorus-verse" structure (as well as the slight variants).
• It is generally louder in the instrumental parts and the choruses than in the verses. --- Listen to "Attack" on their last album.
• Another thing I'd like to mention is that Serj Tankian worked with Limp Bizkit (a well known nu metal band), Saul Williams (a hip-hop artist), M.I.A. (a rapper), and The Notorious B.I.G. (another rapper & hip-hop artist). The link to hip-hop and rapping with System of a Down's lead singer is therefore established. I don't have the material that Tankian produced with those artists, but seeing how those artists are predominantly hip-hop and nu metal (in Link Bizkit's case), it is probable that the material is similar to hip-hop and nu metal in style.

Now with all these similarities between System of a Down and the nu metal sound and scene, I think that it is more than legitimate that nu metal remains in the infobox while progressive metal departs it. Progressive metal must depart from the infobox because 1) only used a couple of times to label the band, 2) the band has very few progressive elements/songs. Voila, I think that this is it. ZOUAVMAN LE ZOUAVE 21:31, 20 July 2007 (UTC)

I must agree with 74.124.28.243, they're not a typical nu metal band. But like ZOUAVMAN LE ZOUAVE says, they share a lot of similarities, have been classified as nu metal a zillion of times by the press and they became popular during the nu metal era. In their infobox there is alternative metal, alternative rock, progressive metal, experimental rock, hard rock and nu metal. They're hard to categorize... they're nu metal combined with a lot of other genres. We'll keep nu metal in the infobox. Emmaneul ^(Talk) 21:57, 20 July 2007 (UTC)

But since Soad isn't a common nu metal band, i dont think the infobox should be limited to three genres. its giving everyone the wrong idea of hows they sound.

I would also like that serj tankian hasn't worked with the notorious b.i.g, or m.i.a. Mia just remixed something of his, and serj remixed a b.i.g track, and was probably persuaded by shavo to do so.

The relationship is still there. And even if he had been "persuaded by shavo to do so", as you say, Shavo is still a SoaD member and the relationship between the bands and the artists is there. The facts are there, if you really want to know about the tiny details, I think the best solution is to ask Tankian yourself. ^^ ZOUAVMAN LE ZOUAVE 08:43, 22 July 2007 (UTC)

I read the similarities that guy did between nu-metal and SOAD. First of all, I laughed out loud while reading them, your point being as shallow as glass, ignorant and plain stupid. What the hell are you trying to do, you little wiki-nerd. I HAVE AN IDEA! Why don't we compare another band to the nerd's genre-definitions. Like... TOOL! Yea, let's turn Tool into a nu-metal band! Hm.. 'motivating a crowd to move with the beat'. Check. On the song 'Vicarious' singer Maynard James Keenan repeatedly sings with a raised fist (lyrics being generally angsty and somewhat hostile) 'why can't we just admit it, why can't we just admit it' with a very, very catchy 5/4 guitar/bass/drum-pattern in the background. I sure get motivated to move with the beat. Nu-metal!

Hm.. Guitarists making use of liberal palm muting. Man, If you tried to make yourself look like a fool, you succeeded. ALL OF METAL USE PALM MUTING!! Then, according to you, all metal bands in the world should be called nu-metal! Has it ever occured to you that maybe, uh, a band called, like, BLACK SABBATH influenced some metal bands in the world with that technique? You might as well say, like, 'Nu-metal makes use of distortioned guitars, whereas SOAD is a nu-metal band'. And Tool too, making more than just a liberal use of it. Check!

Hm.. First of all, B.Y.O.B. is dropped C#, a tuning which Tony Iommi used on 1972's genre-defining masterpiece 'Sabbath Bloody Sabbath'. Tool also have dropped guitars. And probably EVERY FUCKING METAL BAND IN THE WORLD! Not every, but you get my point. Once again making a fool out of yourself. Check! Hm.. Yea, solos. Tool guitarist Adam Jones does even fewer solos than Daron Malakian, which basically (according to you) makes Adam more nu-metal than Daron. You claim that the solos that are there don't emphasize on technicality and that most metal bands do that in general. Once again, making yourself look like a fool. I suspect your metal-knowledge doesn't reach any further than Iron Maiden's 'Belly of the Beast' or Sabbath's 'Paranoid'. Have you even hard Daron's solo on 'Lonely Day'? That's a hell of a technichal performance, if you ask me. Much more technically difficult than Adam's solo on 'Jambi'. Hell, it's going real good for Tool here! Check!

Hm.. 'Nu metal bands often feature aggressive vocals that range from melodic singing akin to pop and rock, guttural screaming and shouting from various forms of metal, hardcore punk, and rapping'. You say that the link between the VERBAL DECORATIONS on 'Chop Suey' should be considered. I'm turning you into a retard, sorry, but when one relies that much on a stupid article and with, obviously, no knowledge at all, it's hard to avoid. Tool will have no problem with this one. The 'rapping' and guttural screaming on 'Ticks & Leeches' is, like, nu-metal. Not to mention the contrasts between soft vocals and pure screaming on 'The Grudge'. Not to mention the 'rapping' on 'Rosetta Stoned'!! Geez, this covers a hell of alot bands. Nine Inch Nails! Nu-metal?? Nu-metal! Hm.. Yea, the song structure thing. The only 'nu-metal characteristic' (lol) that Tool ain't THAT big part of.. But we can't forget the verses on 'The Pot' and the many different verses and choruses on 'The Patient', 'Parabola', 'Ticks & Leeches' and the title song 'Lateralus' from 'Lateralus. In case you didn't know, man, verses and choruses existed a hundred years ago and your point weighs as much as helium. Geez, it's barely worth commenting.

Hm.. 'It is generally louder in the instrumental parts and the choruses than in the verses'. FOR FUCK'S SAKE! IS THIS ALL YOU GOT?! Oh man.. what a big genius you are, it's louder in the chorus than in the verse... Yea, wikipedia deals with absolutes, didn't you know? Hmm.. so to prove Tool also does this. Listen to the title song on 'Lateralus', you'll hear that the chorus is louder than the verse.

Hm.. Yea, Serj Tankian's work with other artists, nu-metal artists and hip hop artists. THIS SHOULDN'T EVEN BE CONSIDERED. WHAT A BAND MEMBER DOES OUTSIDE THE BAND DOESN'T MATTER! Did you know that Serj also've worked with Tool? In your case, that's a CLEAR proof to add 'progressice metal' to SOAD's infobox. Saul Williams did guest vocals on Nine Inch Nail's latest album, let's call Trent Reznor a hip hopper!

'Now with all these similarities between System of a Down and the nu metal sound and scene, I think that it is more than legitimate that nu metal remains in the infobox while progressive metal departs it'. Well, I object. I object as hell! These so called 'similarities' are as cheap as Bush is intelligent. If you all are okay with this, I'll go right away and add 'nu-metal' on Tool's infobox. Because what the fool did was stupid as hell, pure incompetence, relying on a stupid, shallow article. What we all know is that SOAD is an organic band with organic sounds. Their sounds and atmospheres don't recall the studio over-production that flourish Nu-metal, SOAD's atmosphere recall politics and action, in the name of themes, and influences from armeninan, greek and world music, pure creative freedom, in the name of music. As far as Mezmerize/Hypnotize go, they're a hell lot of more prog metal, than their previous albums are nu-metal, which they are not.Revan ltrl 23:43, 6 August 2007 (UTC)

If like wiki-nerds, you can get some wiki-nerd stuff to read: If you can prove your statement in a civil way making your tirade verifiable by using sources instead of making a point, then we could start talking about SoaDs genre. Thank you Emmaneul ^(Talk) 00:53, 7 August 2007 (UTC)

But that's the point, Emmanuel, there aren't really any sources for music genres except for the music itself, THAT's the real source, and you don't seem to get that. And what to include in the infobox should be discussed here and not decided by some articles or reviewers that write whatever comes to their minds. And my other point is that the guy you answered to with your "nu-metal" characteristics, that go for most rock and pop music, is actually right! It IS the turntables that makes nu-metal nu-metal! It IS the rapping and the lyrics about teen angst that matter! It IS the hip hop influenced drumming and the bass's role in the music that matter! It's these shallow things that creates nu-metal and SOAD don't fit in anywhere. That's why I was ironic and sort of disrespectful, I wanted to make my point clear, just like the other guy, because his obvious statement wasn't considered, you obviously thought there was a deeper meaning with nu-metal, but there isn't really, not necesseraly. I don't think 'various influences' should be there either, it doesn't offer anything at all. What do you say about alternative metal, experimental rock,pop and folk? Just an idea, a scetch =PRevan ltrl 19:33, 9 August 2007 (UTC)

im happy to see someone agrees with me. SOAD IS NOT NU METAL!!!!!!! 74.124.33.181 21:36, 11 August 2007 (UTC)

Science

There seems to be some controversy regarding the meaning behind the song 'science', more specifically whether it is about science Vs. faith, or science Vs. religious faith. The song makes no mention of religion, however there are various forums debating in the favour of the song being pro creationism. I have not found any official statement regarding the meaning of the song, but further research might lead to some authorative interpretation of the song.

User:shyal-b 16 July 2007 (UTC)

'In the beginning'

'They called on Shavo Odadjian, with whom they knew from when Soil shared a recording studio with Odadjian's previous band as well as when Odadjian was briefly their guitar player'. That is the clumsiest sentence ever. Please someone edit this for clarity.

I fixed it some, not sure if I made it any better though. FallenWings47 18:23, 22 July 2007 (UTC)

Musical Style and Influence section

I don't think the disputed genres such as prog metal, alt rock and hard rock should be discussed in this section. Shouldn't we talk about this in a separate genre dispute section. 74.124.28.243 15:52, 21 July 2007 (UTC)

It's part of their music style, isn't it? I don't think we need a new section for just 2 sentences. By the way, this construction is fairly common: Queen, My Chemical Romance, Fall Out Boy, etc.. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Emmaneul (talk • contribs)

The current section should suffice. Talk page disputes are not to be confused with public controversies and as far as current sources go, there isn't one. The press prints whatever it happens to come up with and the band does not care - end of the story. Also note that after the recent removal of several uncited assertions the style section is already rather short (though now thoroughly referenced) and further fragmentation would not improve the article. - Cyrus XIII 13:28, 24 July 2007 (UTC)

Listen, we've discussed a lot, analyzed many different possible solutions for the infobox problem, and there is absolutely no problem with having three very general genres (whom most of the fans, critics, and non-fans agree with) in the infobox, with a little link to the genre section. To say the band genre is disputed is a thing; to say that the band genre is "various" is another. System of a Down has a very specific genre, one that I could easily recognize from the radio, while bands who have "various" genres are bands like Mr. Bungle or Secret Chiefs 3 who have radically different genres switching within a song or album. I am reverting your edit until concensus is reached on the talk page (and I am particularly waiting for Emmaneul's opinion of this). Please do not revert my edit, we don't want to start an edit war around here. Let's figure this out on the talk page first. ZOUAVMAN LE ZOUAVE 08:18, 25 July 2007 (UTC)

Sure, no problem with a tandem solution that lists a few genres and then offers readers a "various others" link to the style section for further reading. I have championed that approach in a few articles myself. What I take issue in is having over half a dozen references in an infobox, as it makes the code near-unreadable and hard to maintain. It's just not practical. Infoboxes usually summarize what is already in the article's main body and that's where we can source the genres much more conveniently. - Cyrus XIII 08:33, 25 July 2007 (UTC)

Then maybe moving the references to the main body would solve the problem. We would put the references in the Style and Influence section in the sentence (which is already in the article): "..., among them alternative metal, hard rock, nu metal and progressive metal.[23]", but where we would put all the references along with the genres in the main body, not in the infobox. Do you see what I mean? This would leave the main body with all the references, and the infobox would be clean. Could that solve the issue? ZOUAVMAN LE ZOUAVE 08:50, 25 July 2007 (UTC)

Sure, that's pretty much what I intended to do with my edits, save for the genre links that would now remain in the infobox (again, no problem with that). A few previously used sources did not appear in my revision, but that's because we probably don't need to throw five sources per genre at the reader to illustrate that content, especially if it puts fairly generic listings like AOL Music or only arbitrarily related stuff like the Mel C review next to articles by the likes of Rolling Stone magazine and the New York Times, which actually deal with what the band does. Linking to experimental rock on the basis of the Pure Volume reference (by the way, who wrote that source?) alone also seems a bit thin and the current wording of the style section already addresses the experimental nature of SOAD's output. In short, I believe editing the genre field of the box like this (even without changing the Style and influences section) would already do the trick:

[[Alternative metal]], [[nu metal]], [[System of a Down#Style and influences|various others]]

What do you think? - Cyrus XIII 10:00, 25 July 2007 (UTC)

I also think that moving the references will do the trick. But since the style section of the article overall addresses the experimental nature of SoaD, I think it would be best if we keep experimental rock in the infobox as a means of making a little summary of what the style section says. We have concluded on the talk page that it would be best to keep those three genres in the infobox. If you really feel that experimental rock should be taken out of the infobox, we can discuss this further, but I really do think that putting it in the infobox is better. Now I'm open for discussion, but it's only if you really feel like it's needed. ZOUAVMAN LE ZOUAVE 10:28, 25 July 2007 (UTC)

Okay, I wrote another revision, that includes all previous genre links in the infobox and relocated the Purevolume source to the style section - I'll leave it to others to contemplate its quality. The remaining sources throughout the article have been updates as well, which I hope will be good soil (no pun intended) for future additions. - Cyrus XIII 18:43, 25 July 2007 (UTC)

ZOUAVMAN LE ZOUAVE, I agree with what you said on 08:18, 25 July 2007. Alternative metal/Nu metal best reflect SoaD's genre, having experimental rock is questionable but it shows SoaD is not your average nu metal/alt metal band. If a good source can back it up, it's no problem (I was looking for better sources but couldn't find any except for [1]). I agree on those 3. "Various" is too broad and could only apply to totally uncategorizable bands playing a load of genres (Sonic Youth, Estradasphere) (but even then experimental music or the like is more suitable). We should keep it like it was on 23:18, 21 July 2007 and like it is now. Emmaneul ^(Talk) 21:42, 25 July 2007 (UTC)

Associated Acts - Should The Apex Theory really be there?

In the associated acts section, should the apex theory and vokee even be there. andy was only a part of the band before they were signed. He doesn't really have anything to do with soad at all. i think that section should be limited to side projects, or other projects where the main four members are involved. Dissectional 00:23, 26 July 2007 (UTC)

I think Vokee deserves a mention since its a currently active band and they have played a show with the Axis of Justice or something of that sort. I'll find the link on SOADfans later... 216.8.148.88 19:53, 27 July 2007 (UTC)

Stop removing Experimental Rock

We just had an extensive debate on SoaD's genres, and due to the wide range of genres they have been labeled, we think experimental rock is a suiting genre. so stop removing it. Dissectional 23:59, 28 July 2007 (UTC)

Agreed. If someone wants to remove experimental rock, then a discussion has to be made. ZOUAVMAN LE ZOUAVE 12:44, 28 July 2007 (UTC)

Groove Metal

A lot of people have been proposing thrash metal as a genre for them, but since they aren't really pure thrash like slayer or metallica, should we add groove metal?Dissectional 01:58, 30 July 2007 (UTC)

The current genres seem good enough, I don't believe it is necessary to add "Groove metal" or "thrash" since they don't quite fit either genre. Zanders5k 21:15, 29 July 2007 (UTC)

What do you think?

Please tell me what you think about this. gracz54 ^(talk) 22:33, 29 July 2007 (UTC)

Soil is not an associated act!!

Soil was a band for like 2 months. not to mention theyre not even active anymore, so theyre not associated Dissectional 01:05, 31 July 2007 (UTC)

Actually, Soil was a band for three years. You'd know that if you actually read the article. And I figured Soil would be an associated act being three of four SOAD members were a part of it. If being active is a problem, Serart probably shouldn't be on there either being Serj hasn't really done anything with it since 2003. FallenWings47 11:55, 1 August 2007 (UTC)

Ya, but soil officially broke up, and serart is a side project, and serj and shavo are probably going back to it once their own records are out. Dissectional 18:23, 1 August 2007 (UTC)

I'm just saying. Do you have any references to Serj and Shavo doing that? FallenWings47 15:31, 3 August 2007 (UTC)

Well it says that in the serart article. also, soil never released anything. if you still think it should be added, then i have a source of daron talking about his first band, snowblind, when he was 15. that would have every right to be on the article then too, but i feel that the associated acts should either be active, or at least have released something. Dissectional 00:13, 5 August 2007 (UTC)

Alright then. Hey, maybe you should add anything you have about that band to Daron's page. Just a thought. Do you have anything on any other bands? Maybe the bands Serj and Daron were in before Soil? FallenWings47 21:11, 4 August 2007 (UTC)

I found out about his band snowblind in an interview i found on his high schools web site, glendale high. it doesnt really give any info on the band, so i wouldnt really be able to add anything to the page. Dissectional 02:33, 5 August 2007 (UTC)

Well do you know anything about any other pre-Soil bands? FallenWings47 11:48, 5 August 2007 (UTC)

Daron thought of the name system, not serj!!!!!!

http://www.hardradio.com/shockwaves/system1.html in this interview daron states.................. I'm sure many of you are probably wondering, what is the meaning, or concept, behind "System Of A Down"? Daron explains, "I thought of the name from a poem that I had written. It was originally called 'Victims Of The Down,' but Shavo didn't really like the word 'victims' in the title, so I thought up 'System Of A Down' and it just clicked...Plus, now our album will be under the 'S' section, next to Slayer!" and you can see that shavo was the one who didnt like the word victims, not serj. also, im not sure if it is a typo or not, but they put victims of THE down, instead of victims of A down. Dissectional 21:03, 2 August 2007 (UTC)

If you get the "Maximum System of a Down" CD, I'm pretty sure it says it was Serj who came up with Systen. FallenWings47 15:29, 3 August 2007 (UTC)

Maximum system of a down is an unauthorized biography, and the accuracy of it is unknown. this is an actuall interview with the band. i think its more reliable. Dissectional 04:17, 4 August 2007 (UTC)

Well I suppose that's true. I guess I'll take your word for it. FallenWings47 21:12, 4 August 2007 (UTC)

Oriental Metal

i know it has been proposed before, and no one thought anything of it, but reading the article, they have some similarities. They have used middle eastern intruments such as ouds and sitars, and have worked with middle eastern artists such as arto. i think they have more similarities with this genre than they do woth nu metal. Dissectional 05:19, 5 August 2007 (UTC)

SoaD have Armenian folk influences but "oriental" influences are rarely introduced in their music. These influences are mentioned in the Style and influences section.

I think oriental metal is a dubious genre. The oriental metal article does not cite its references and was nominated for deletion once. The bands in the article are far more extreme than SoaD all being death or black metal bands. I don't see similarities with oriental metal. I however see a lot of similarities with nu-metal (explained in the Progressive_Metal section). Eman ^(Talk) 15:53, 5 August 2007 (UTC)

to the second person who posted. if you read the article, you would see that when they say oriental, they mean middle eastern, which soad has a lot of influence from, and have used middle instruments ans worked with middle eastern artists. i think you are thnking oriental as in asian or chinese, which is not what the genre is. Dissectional 19:38, 5 August 2007 (UTC)

No, I know exactly what the oriental metal article is about, and SoaD don't fit the genre (listen to the bands listed in the article, and you'll probably notice the difference with SoaD). Eman ^(Talk) 07:52, 6 August 2007 (UTC)

Nu Metal.....

For everyone who still thinks Nu Metal should be left, I think you should watch this. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W7vPcGRTVuA Korn, who basically invented the genre, are talking about how Nu Metal is basically Metal mixed with Hip Hop. System of a Down have NO Hip Hop influence AT All. Also, and I dont mean to offend anyone, but when I think of Nu Metal, and I know a lot of people will both agree and disagree with me on this, I think of the "white trash" or "trailer trash" persona. A prime example is Limp Bizkit's lead singer. Whenever you search Nu Metal on google or youtube, you get something to do with Rap Metal, and for that reason, I dont think Nu Metal should be left in the info box. i also think that Alternative Metal is the genre that best describes their music, and when most people think of Alternative Metal, they think of Nu Metal without the Hip Hop factor. I know some of you are going to say that Nu Metal doesn't have to involve Hip Hop or Rapping, but the fact is that pop culture will always think of Nu Metal as Rap Metal, and I think these articles are made to cater to the average person. Dissectional 05:57, 6 August 2007 (UTC)

Enough sources state SoaD is nu metal:

• "System of a Down Biography". Rockdetector. 2007-02-15. Retrieved 2007-04-27. {{cite web}}: Check date values in: |date= (help)
• Will Hodgkinson (2003-02-21). "Songs in the key of C". Guardian Unlimited. Retrieved 2007-05-06. Chisholm moves on to some of the nu metal she listens to at the gym, including System of a Down and Linkin Park. {{cite news}}: Check date values in: |date= (help)
• Maria Armoudian (2003-02-06). "Rock's axis of activism". Salon.com. Retrieved 2007-05-06. Serj Tankian, lead singer of the multiplatinum-selling nu metal band System of a Down... {{cite web}}: Check date values in: |date= (help)
• "American Recordings/Columbia Records Release Special Limited Edition of System of a Down's #1 Album 'Toxicity'". PR Newswire. 2002-04-23. Retrieved 2007-05-06. Toxicity... was named Album Of The Year 2001 by Spin magazine who raved Toxicity is the most ambitious record yet to emerge from the nu metal scene. {{cite news}}: Check date values in: |date= (help)
• Adrien Begrand (2002-07-25). "Various Artists: The Pledge of Allegiance Tour". PopMatters. Retrieved 2007-05-06. ...combining aggro punk with old school metal and the off-kilter sounds of Frank Zappa... I'm not someone who's completely unfamiliar with nu-metal. When it's done well, it's extremely powerful, but few know how to pull it off properly... especially System of a Down's two albums. {{cite web}}: Check date values in: |date= (help)

and like ZOUAVMAN LE ZOUAVE said earlier, SoaD has a lot in common with Nu metal:

• Generally speaking, the emphasis in the music is on either communicating feelings of angst and hostility, or motivating a crowd to move with the beat. --- Yes, SoaD does not have teen angst, but it definitely does have emphasis on motivating the crowd to move with the beat. I must say, both in the music and lyrics. On "BYOB," the chorus is extremely pop-like (from an alternative rock POV) and says "Everybody's going to the party have a real good time, Dancing in the desert blowing up the sunshine" which is an incitation to dance and "move with the beat". On "Lost in Hollywood", one part says "All you bitches put your hands in the air" which is another incitation to "moving with the beat" and is sounds like something a rapper would say (that's my opinion).
• Nu metal guitarists generally make liberal use of palm muting. --- SoaD uses a lot of palm muting. First examples that pop up to my mind are "BYOB", "Radio/Video", and "Old School Hollywood".
• Another common technique with nu metal guitarists is the use of de-tuned strings whose lower pitch creates a thicker, more resonant sound. --- A technique that SoaD uses. "BYOB" is in Dropped C (I believe), but anyone with the slightest guitar knowledge would notice that SoaD are tuned down.
• This is typical of nu metal bands in that guitar solos are rare in nu metal songs in general, and when they do appear they are often short. --- SoaD have very few guitar solos, and if they do they are extremely short or do not emphasize on technicality (which, in general, is what most metal bands do in a guitar solo).
• Nu metal bands often feature aggressive vocals that range from melodic singing akin to pop and rock, guttural screaming and shouting from various forms of metal, hardcore punk, and rapping. --- SoaD uses (most of the time) melodic singing and shouting, and in some occasions uses some rap-like vocals (most notably in their "Chop Suey" intro and verses). Although it is not, properly speaking, rap, the link must be considered. I would still like to remind you that rapping does not necessarily make you a nu metal band, and that being a nu metal band does not necessarily means you rap. There are nu metal bands who don't rap, and they are still nu metal.
• Normally, nu metal songs have a song structure of instrumental introduction, verse, chorus, verse, chorus, bridge, sometimes another verse but almost always ending with a chorus. --- This is characteristic of SoaD. Most of their songs (I'm not saying all of them) have a very simple "verse-chorus-verse" structure (as well as the slight variants).
• It is generally louder in the instrumental parts and the choruses than in the verses. --- Listen to "Attack" on their last album.
• Another thing I'd like to mention is that Serj Tankian worked with Limp Bizkit (a well known nu metal band), Saul Williams (a hip-hop artist), M.I.A. (a rapper), and The Notorious B.I.G. (another rapper & hip-hop artist). The link to hip-hop and rapping with System of a Down's lead singer is therefore established. I don't have the material that Tankian produced with those artists, but seeing how those artists are predominantly hip-hop and nu metal (in Link Bizkit's case), it is probable that the material is similar to hip-hop and nu metal in style. the 'introduction, verse, chorus, verse, chorus, bridge' is used by every genre of music: rock, country, punk, so that doesnt make them nu metal either

SoaD is nu metal. Cheers Emmaneul ^(Talk) 08:10, 6 August 2007 (UTC)

I feel that the only reason they were labeled as Nu Metal is because all of the hard/metal music that was popping up around that time was following Korn and adding the Hip Hop element. Because they happened to play music that was more hard or agressive than a rock band, they were considered Nu Metal. As for the things that ZOUAVMAN LE ZOUAVE said, I can easily say how they are wrong. When he gives the reference about BYOB, and how that line "everybody's going to the party have a real good time, dancing in the desert blowing up the sunshine." That line is metaphorical. BYOB stands for bring your own bombs, going to the party is metaphorical for going to war, blowing up the sunshine in the desert is like dropping bombs in Iraq. So those lines dont have anything to do woth the crowd moving to the beat. The detuned guitar doesnt make nu metal either. metallica did their st anger album in drop c. and almost every hard rock/metal band today uses drop d or lower. the 'introduction, verse, chorus, verse, chorus, bridge' is used by every genre of music: rock, country, punk, so that doesnt make them nu metal. as for the working with the rap artists, MIA just remixed one of his songs, serj was writing poetry with saul williams, and i dont think he even did anything with B.I.G. as you can see, all of the things he said are either irrevelant, or fit with other genres as well.Dissectional 18:46, 6 August 2007 (UTC)

But then, there are still tons of professional reviewers who call it nu metal, I (and all editors should) take their opinions into account, not our opinions. If you can find reliable sources where is mentioned that it's a total mistake to call SoaD a nu-metal band, then maybe we could incorporate that information into the article. For now I trust the professional reviewers.

PS Not all nu-metal is closely related to hip hop (f.e. Slipknot (band), Coal Chamber, Disturbed (band)) Emmaneul ^(Talk) 22:25, 6 August 2007 (UTC)

http://www.bbc.co.uk/dna/collective/A7191975 is one i mentioned in another genre debate on this page. ill look for more later. i think proffesional reviewers label them as nu metal because their music doenst fit in with modern metal bands, such as dragonforce, meshuggah, isis or nile (all of which i am fans of), but it doesnt fit in with modern rock bands either. since their music is tough to classify, they figure they should put them as nu metal. i am a metal fan, and i listen to what most people call true metal. those bands i listed are just a few of my favourites. so im not just some kid who listens to korn and limp bizkit and think "itz the heaviest shit out thur" lol. in my opinion, even though SoaD doesnt fit in with those other bands i listed, i find more similarities with them than i do comparing them to korn, limp bizkit or slipknot. Dissectional 00:17, 7 August 2007 (UTC)

Amber Cowan writes about Hyponotize which is more prog then every pre-Mezmerize release. The infobox covers that by stating SoaD is not purely nu metal, they are alternative metal, experimental, and nu metal. There are enough reasons to have nu metal in the infobox: The popularity of SoaD during the nu metal era, the alteration of clean melodic/harsh vocals, the low tuned guitars, the mainstream popularity, the lack of solos, the tons of professional reviews mentioning nu metal, their catchy yet metal style. They are no less nu metal than Slipknot (band), Coal Chamber, Disturbed (band) etc. Emmaneul ^(Talk) 00:51, 7 August 2007 (UTC)