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Current disputes

Talk:Persecution of_Christians#Nazi_section

– Discussion in progress.

Filed by Jenhawk777 on 21:01, 10 August 2020 (UTC).

Have you discussed this on a talk page?

Yes, I have discussed this issue on a talk page already.

Location of dispute

• Talk:Persecution of Christians#Nazi section (edit | subject | history | links | watch | logs)

Users involved

• Jenhawk777 (talk · contribs)
• Objective3000 (talk · contribs)
• Slatersteven (talk · contribs)

Dispute overview

This section is largely unsourced and does not accurately reflect what sources say fully. It gives undue weight by mentioning part of what sources say and omitting the rest. I want to add sources, and I want those sources represented with a more complete content. However, this entire discussion may be off-topic for this page. I get consistent opposition to anything I propose, without referencing sources, without offers of compromise or responses to my offer of compromise, and no efforts at collaboration. I am very frustrated and didn't know what else to do but ask for help. Help!

How have you tried to resolve this dispute before coming here?

This is my first effort after the effort on the Talk page: [1]

How do you think we can help resolve the dispute?

I am hoping for some direction to the others to make the effort to collaborate--or an opinion on whether this is off topic--or an opinion on what should be included--or anything that might break up the log jam. I'm getting nothing right now so anything you offer will be an improvement.

Summary of dispute by Objective3000

The article is about the persecution of Christians and the section in question, under the Nazis. Millions of people were persecuted by the Nazis for their religion and their religion alone. Moving the focus to anti-Nazi religious leaders, and even specific individual(s), dilutes the article focus as these people would likely have been persecuted irrespective of their religion. Anti-Nazis were killed as a regular practice. Frankly, I think the section is too long now. For example, it includes: Between 1939 and 1945, an estimated 3,000 members, 18% of the Polish clergy, were murdered for their suspected ties to the Polish Resistance or left-wing groups, or for sheltering Jews (punishable by death). Well, I think about 16% of all Poles were killed. We are talking about 3,000 killed out of a total 5,770,000 Poles killed. And most of them didn’t shelter Jews, or have ties to the resistance. Let’s stick to the subject, systemic persecution of Christians. O3000 (talk) 16:48, 13 August 2020 (UTC)

Summary of dispute by Slatersteven

As I see it the issue is that the sources do not support the text, that require a degree of wp:or to make them fit.Slatersteven (talk) 10:29, 13 August 2020 (UTC)

Talk:Persecution of_Christians#Nazi_section discussion

Good day, my name is Nightenbelle and I'm willing to volunteer for this case. To begin with- Each person involved needs to be notified on their talk page by the filing editor. Once that happens, we can begin. Nightenbelle (talk) 14:01, 12 August 2020 (UTC)

@Nightenbelle: Thank you so much! Is there a template I am supposed to use for that, or do I just go to their talk age and tell them? Jenhawk777 (talk) 18:53, 12 August 2020 (UTC)

So I tried to answer my own question in an effort to be less of a nuisance, and couldn't find that such a template exists, so I just went and told them on their talk pages and gave them this link. I hope that's okay, I am still a relative newcomer and this is the first time I've attempted this.Jenhawk777 (talk) 19:03, 12 August 2020 (UTC)

The template is {{DRN-notice}}, or you can use Twinkle, but a manual message is fine. Robert McClenon (talk) 03:45, 13 August 2020 (UTC)

Well, maybe the template would have worked better. [2] Jenhawk777 (talk) 04:41, 13 August 2020 (UTC)

@Nightenbelle: May I have permission to go over 200 words if needed so I can include references and quotes? Jenhawk777 (talk) 16:00, 13 August 2020 (UTC)

@Jenhawk777: No. This is exactly what I am tryng to avoid. All I need right now is a summary of what the problem is and what you want to see happen. We will get into the why and how later.Nightenbelle (talk) 18:49, 13 August 2020 (UTC)

Okay, sorry. I will do a summary. Jenhawk777 (talk) 18:52, 13 August 2020 (UTC)

First Moderator's Statement

Okay the first thing I would like is for each person involved to confirm they are willing to participate, and the second thing is - in 200 words or less, summarize your position and what you would like to see happen at the outcome of this discussion. Nightenbelle (talk) 13:35, 13 August 2020 (UTC)

Jenhawk777's statement

I would like to see inline citations for what's already there. I would like to see both the German Christians who supported Nazism and the Confessing church who opposed it mentioned. I would like to see a source for Slatersteven's definition of religious persecution, which differs from that used in the rest of the article, and I think is OR. Or remove all of this as off topic. Either way, I would like to see Dietrich Bonhoeffer included in this section. In The Cambridge Companion to Dietrich Bonhoeffer p.22 it refers to Bonhoeffer's death as the death of a religious martyr, so that is a source that warrants at least some discussion of the claim's validity including any alternate views.Jenhawk777 (talk) 19:05, 13 August 2020 (UTC)

Slatersteven's Statement

Yes I am willing to participate, and really have nothing to add, the sources (as far as I can tell) do not say what the filer is using them to support, they do not explicitly say it. Basically it fails verification.Slatersteven (talk) 13:51, 13 August 2020 (UTC)

@Slatersteven: So what do you want to see happen as a result of this DRN? Nightenbelle (talk) 18:49, 13 August 2020 (UTC)

Whether or not we can include material about people or things that RS do not explicitly say were targets because they were Christian.Slatersteven (talk) 19:25, 13 August 2020 (UTC)

Moderator's Second Statement

Okay so as I understand it- these are the issues at hand

1- Adding inline citations for existing information 2- Inclusion or Exclusion of German Christians who supported Nazism 3- The definition of religious persecution 4- Inclusion or exclusion of Dietrich Bonhoeffer 5- What the sources say/support

Lets begin with the definition of religious persecution since that will somewhat dictate how the other issues are handled. Would each of you please tell me- with a citation/RS what definition you are using to decide who was a victim of religious persecution and who was not? Nightenbelle (talk) 15:16, 14 August 2020 (UTC)

Editors' Statements

Slatersteven's Statement

[[3]] "Religious persecution is the systematic mistreatment of an individual or group of individuals as a response to their religious beliefs", pretty much sums it up for me.Slatersteven (talk) 15:20, 14 August 2020 (UTC)

Also this [[4]], yes it talks about violence but again "religious persecution" is persecution because of someones religion.Slatersteven (talk) 15:38, 14 August 2020 (UTC)

Objective3000's statement

I'm fine with that at Religious_persecution#Definition: "Religious persecution is defined as violence or discrimination against religious minorities, actions which are intended to deprive minorities of political rights and force them to assimilate, leave, or live as second-class citizens." Or, Slatersteven's for that matter. O3000 (talk) 17:36, 14 August 2020 (UTC)

References

Jenhawk777's statement

Ah, you have immediately gone to the heart of the matter. That is the primary cause of the disagreement here, because there is no such thing as an accepted or standardized definition of religious persecution in any reliable source. The Immigration and Nationality Act (INA), and the immigration regulations, omit any explanation of the meaning of religious persecution. The federal courts have recognized it as “ill-defined." Legal scholars have not attempted a definition because, "by and large, scholars do not believe that a unified definition is possible." Therefore, it has seemed to me that the most reasonable thing to do is to use what's consistent with the 'working definition' assumed in the rest of this particular and specific article. This definition is "those who were persecuted, who would not have been, had they not been Christian." That's it with no other requirements.

As to the subject of this article being the systemic persecution of Christians, I would like to know where it either says or implies that because I apparently missed it. "Systemic" is not generally seen as a requisite to qualify as religious persecution, not in any RS, nor are the other sections of this article limited to that. There are no numerical requirements. I don't see how we can justify creating this separate definition for this one section of the article.

Slatersteven says he wants to know Whether or not we can include material about people or things that RS do not explicitly say were targets because they were Christian. This is a red herring, or perhaps it's a straw man, I get those two confused, but either way, it's a distraction, a 'sleight of hand.' I say that because, after Eusebius, there are no sources that 'explicitly' say Christians anywhere were persecuted purely and solely for their faith, not in any era, but this article does not see that as disproving that they were persecuted. That's actually quite reasonable of those who have contributed to this article, because in the sources, what is found is not a definition so much as a description of religious persecution.

This "description" is this: if someone is practicing their faith — preaching, or converting, or wearing a hijab, or proselytizing, or leading a home church, or opposing a tyrant, or whatever else their religion leads them to do that gets them noticed by the powers that be — and if they are squashed or harassed or harmed or killed for those activities, then they are victims of religious persecution according to contemporary understanding. According to legal scholar Scott Rempel, religious persecution is determined primarily by what harm is done to the victim under circumstances where religion is a recognizable causal factor. That includes those who were persecuted for actions they took because of their faith--like resisting participation in Roman sacrifice--or resisting Hitler. That's the standard assumed in this article.

In fact, that's the threshold used by the International Institute for Religious Freedom, and other human rights organizations, and even the US state department's OFFICE OF INTERNATIONAL RELIGIOUS FREEDOM. Consistency in the meta-message requires using the same standard in this section concerning the Nazis as well.

That allows for including the Confessing church even if there is no source that says what Slatersteven wants. (I have no problem including the German Christians, that just needs citing. The disagreement is over adding their opponents, the Confessing church. I think both sides should be mentioned--or neither should--as they existed in equal numbers.)

Hitler did not kill millions solely for their religion, he killed anyone who had even the smallest amount of Jewish ethnicity. No source says otherwise. That's how anti-semitism is defined, as racial hatred; it is not primarily religious. He killed Jews who weren't practicing Jews. He killed Jews who were practicing Christians--the Aryan paragraph was aimed specifically at them. He didn't stop killing those Jews because they had given up their religion. He kept killing them, because they were ethnically Jewish whatever their religion was.

Hitler's well documented hatred of Christianity, on the other hand, cannot be defined as racial, since the Protestants were Germans. It was specifically a religious hatred, which all the sources also say, and certainly hatred of opposition, absolutely. This, and the definition/description of religious persecution used in this article allows for including Bonhoeffer as an example of the topic of this page. All the RS do say his religion was the cause of his opposition to Hitler, and that opposition got him killed. That isn't OR, it's in every source that speaks of him. In The Cambridge Companion to Dietrich Bonhoeffer p.22 it refers to Bonhoeffer's death as the death of a religious martyr, so that is a source that warrants at least some discussion of the claim's validity.

I don't think it's appropriate for us to redefine the topic according to our own opinions in order to say what we want to say in this section.

References

Jenhawk777 (talk) 19:02, 14 August 2020 (UTC)

Moderators third Statement

Jenhawk777 You say that there is no such thing as an accepted definition- yet both other editors provided WP:RS that say otherwise. And while your description is well thought out and reasonable- it is original research and synthesis based on your own opinion. Now, for the record- it happens to be an opinion I share, but its not supported by a RS that you have presented or I could find in a search. As such, WP must accept the sourced definiton. Now- I would like to give you another chance to find a source that specifically supports your definition and present it here. But baring that- I fail to see how we can reject a consensus around "Religious persecution is the systematic mistreatment of an individual or group of individuals as a response to their religious beliefs" or "Religious persecution is defined as violence or discrimination against religious minorities, actions which are intended to deprive minorities of political rights and force them to assimilate, leave, or live as second-class citizens." (which are close enough to the same thing). As to the inclusion of the rest- thats something to be debated after we have a definition- so that will come soon, but not yet. Now, again, I want to be clear- I'm not here to make a decision- I'm just mediating- but we do have a consensus here. I realize its not what you would like Jenhawk777- so I ask- do you have a source that states your definition explicitly? If not.... the consensus will have to rule over WP:OR or WP:Synthesis. Nightenbelle (talk) 01:57, 15 August 2020 (UTC)

I wanted to add- I did read the article you referenced- I did not see anywhere it defined religious persecution in the terms you did- instead, it seems to agree with and use as a definition the same terms that were used by the other editors. If I am wrong- please include the direct quote I missed and accept my sincere apology. Nightenbelle (talk) 02:00, 15 August 2020 (UTC)

Editor's responses

Jenhawk's response

Since the sources say there is no standardized international legal definition, simply picking one out of the many definitions available seems a bit arbitrary, which I admit to doing myself. But that's the problem isn't it? Picking one, without including a discussion of them all is arbitrary.

Slatersteven's first reference is a blog which defines persecution as systematic. I actually accept this as far as it goes, but in what way does 'systematic' limit this definition?

In Rempel's article he says "persecution should be defined as the illegitimate infliction of sufficiently severe harm," and he spends a lot of time defining harm. On page 288 he says that, based on a survey of "thousands of court cases", there are three frameworks for measuring whether harm is persecution: first, the minimal harm model which depends on the persecutor's motive and the State's willingness and ability to protect the victim. The second framework is called the cumulative harm model, and it aggregates experiences over time. The third model uses the concept of systematic harm. This means the blog's definition is basically one third of a definition from the real world and that it leaves out the other two models that are consistently accepted as persecution in courts of law. On what basis do we accept that blog's definition and not the others from case law?

Slatersteven's next reference is a book on politics, however, the book references Grim and Finke's definition of "violent religious persecution" on page 26 as: "physical abuse or displacement of people because of religion." I accept this definition for the most part as well, though it is limited to defining only the violent type of persecution, and if you check footnote 77 on page 126 of a book on using the human rights paradigm to define persecution, it says "The harm or suffering need not be physical..." So, again, on what basis do we accept the one and not the other? They are both sourced.

Here is a training manual for the immigration services that says, where persons experience the denial of the basic human right to religious freedom listed in Article 18 of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights, this is religious persecution. That's also the way the US Department of State's Office of Religious Freedom uses the term persecution.

On page 28 of the RAIO manual, you will find that the "International Religious Freedom Act (IRFA) states that "severe and violent forms of religious persecution, include 'detention, torture, beatings, forced marriage, rape, imprisonment, enslavement, mass resettlement, and death' merely for the peaceful belief in, change of, or practice of their faith.” I summarized that as those who suffer, who would not have suffered, if not for their faith, but that seems like an explicit statement of the same idea to me.

I wanted to add that the alternate definition suffers from the same issues. On page 344, Rempell concludes "the definition of persecution should not include unhelpful or incorrect qualifiers such as..., the requirement that a persecutor inflict a harm for punitive reasons." Religious persecution does not require that one be part of a religious minority. Christians are often persecuted in predominantly Christian countries just as Muslims are most persecuted in Muslim countries. There are no numerical requirements. It is not a requirement that the State be the primary actor.

"When determining whether particular harm or abuses constitute persecution, you must consider their impact on the individual applicant." page 28

The truth is, none of these definitions are substantively different except that I acknowledge the wider and broader usage found in the RAIO. The list and description of the many aspects of religious persecution continues for the next several pages of the RAIO manual, but essentially, it says: religious persecution is suffering harm from a loss of religious freedom, and/or from "arbitrary prohibitions on, restrictions of, or punishment for various religious activities" (page 28), which is the aspect of the definition, explicitly, which says what I said in my summary form.

It seems to me that the broader definition is required by a recognition of what all of these sources say, and that is to some degree, synthesis. But choosing one aspect out of the many is arbitrary and OR. So what can be done?

Thank you for giving me this opportunity to respond.

References

Jenhawk777 (talk) 06:13, 15 August 2020 (UTC)

slatersteven's Response

As we are not an international (or even national) court of law we do not only use the "legal definition" or words or terms but also their scholastic or common usage. Thus international legal definition is a bit of a red herring. Nor does any of the IRFA training manual (As far as I can see) contradict what I have said, it tells you what you should do, it does not define religious persecution.

But it does say

"For the purposes of the present Declaration, the expression “intolerance and discrimination based on religion or belief” means any distinction, exclusion, restriction or preference based on religion or belief and having as its purpose or as its effect nullification or impairment of the recognition, enjoyment or exercise of human rights and fundamental freedoms on an equal basis." (my Empahsis)

That seems to be fairly close to my definition.Slatersteven (talk) 10:29, 15 August 2020 (UTC)

Objective3000's Response

Agree that we should not use legal definitions. The important part of any definition is that any negative effect must be specifically based on religious (or non-religious) characteristics of the persecuted. In this article, we need only focus on whether persecutor(s), in this case Nazis, did so because of religion. That aside, I would suggest that Jenhawk’s arguments would be more effective if they were more concise. O3000 (talk) 11:19, 15 August 2020 (UTC)

Mediator's 4th statement

Okay progress at last! We can all agree that the legal definition is not the most appropriate. Thats something!!

So what we seem to have in common is- Intolerance, discrimination and/or harm based on religions or non-religious characteristics of the persecuted. Does that definition suit everyone?

And Jenhawk777, I do appreciate your carefully crafted response, but I do think O3000 has a point and your purpose would be better served with a more informal, concise tone. This isn't intended to be an series of academic essays, rather a discussion between colleagues and peers. Rather than compose your response as a research paper- try to condense your points into two or three sentences, maybe a paragraph and add inline citations as necessary.

So- Does the definition above suit everyone? It still leaves some room for interpretation, but at least it is a good jumping off place and- it would give everyone one set place to begin. Nightenbelle (talk) 14:29, 15 August 2020 (UTC)

Editor's responses

Objective3000's Response

Clarification: In this particular case, persecution of Christians, non-religious does not apply. Other than that, I'm fine with the description. O3000 (talk) 14:36, 15 August 2020 (UTC)

Since this article is specifically about religious persecution of a specific group, motive is a requirement. If the Nazi's shoot you for attempting to assassinate Hitler, and you happen to be left-handed, that's not persecution of sinistral people. Jenhawk777 added to the article TP that 18% of the Polish clergy were killed by the Nazi's. But, I think about 16% of all Poles were killed. It is not persecution of the clergy if they were just caught up in the mass slaughter of 5.7 million Poles. It's persecution of Poles. O3000 (talk) 17:05, 15 August 2020 (UTC)

Jenhawk777's response

I agree with Nightenbelle's definition and with Slatersteven's statement and definition. I disagree with Objective3000's because it adds the requirement of proving motive, which generally can't be done, which is where all of this started. Sorry that I am wordy. It's just who I am. Jenhawk777 (talk) 16:22, 15 August 2020 (UTC)

What we have just agreed to as our working definition is 'harm based on religion' without defining exactly how that is determined. As Nightenbelle says, that leaves some room for interpretation. There is no need to add proof of the motive of the persecutor to this. That addition would exclude about two-thirds of what is genuine religious persecution, and I could not support that. Religious persecution can be, and most often is, determined from the level and type of effect on the victim.

• If the Nazi's shoot you for attempting to assassinate Hitler, and it turns out it was a trumped up charge, and you were tried in a kangaroo court with no evidence or witnesses, and you were hung immediately before any possibility of appeal or attempt to prove your innocence, but you did have a long history of Christian teaching and theology that opposed everything the Nazis stood for, and it was well documented that they hated Christians like you specifically, then it might be worth considering that you were being killed for practicing your faith and doing your job as a preacher instead of what they claimed as justification for your murder.

To my recollection, I did not add anything about the Polish clergy except a Talk page reference. I agree the Poles were persecuted. That's an important statement for this discussion. Jenhawk777 (talk) 18:40, 15 August 2020 (UTC)

Mediators 5th statement

Please refrain from back and forth editing.

So motivation is still an area of contention. Rather than hypotheticals- can we please find resources that discuss motivation as a requirement? On both sides? Hypotheticals require us to put our opinion into an article- which we are not to do as editors. We have to only report what RS say.

Editor's responses

Objective3000's Response

Well, either the article includes only those that were persecuted because they were Christian, or everyone that was persecuted for any reason who happened to be Christian. The former assumes a motive related to their religion. The latter is, frankly, ridiculous as it would include people that were persecuted because they were black, homosexual, Soviets, political prisoners, Roma, and disabled who happened to be Christian. They were not persecuted because they were Christian. We have other articles about various groups the Nazis persecuted. O3000 (talk) 21:06, 15 August 2020 (UTC)

Jenhawk's response

@Nightenbelle: I am so sorry, I did not know that was wrong. Please accept my genuine apology.

Religious persecution requires religion as a cause, we all agree on that. But all the sources I have so far referenced indicate that can be determined in multiple ways; it doesn't require an explicit statement on the part of the persecutor to prove religion is a causal issue. It does require that there be some overt action that leads the victim — and/or other observers and/or the court — to conclude religion was a factor: and someone in a reliable source needs to say so.

I am thinking that, perhaps, the issue here is, does religion have to be the only cause, the primary cause, or just a cause of persecution to qualify as religious persecution and inclusion in this article? And second, what will we determine as acceptable from the sources as demonstrating this: the victim's own words, other commenters/observers contemporary with the victim, or will only the persecutor's direct confession do? All the sources I have checked indicate that religious persecution is often just one of many motivating factors for the persecutor — they are also driven by ethnicity and economics and political views and so on — so that will impact how we answer these. This matters for the entire article, not just this section.

Again, sorry, and thank you for putting yourself through this. It will make WP better in the end in spite of us. Jenhawk777 (talk) 21:53, 15 August 2020 (UTC)

Human Rights and the Refugee Definition Comparative Legal Practice and Theory, on page 163, says "Since the nexus between persecution and [religion] must be established by a neutral and objective assessment of the act of a persecutor (and not an assessment of his or her subjective intentions) it is not the reason for persecution which is actually the problem in assessing cases..."

Beginning on page 339 of Rempell's article, there's a discussion that includes the motivation of the persecutor. In the first paragraph it says "...an intent to punish ... is "neither a mandatory nor a sufficient aspect of persecution” because ... persecution simply requires that the perpetrator cause the victim suffering or harm.” and at the bottom of the page, "“The fact that a persecutor believes the harm he is inflicting is ‘good for’ his victim does not make it any less painful to the victim, or, indeed, remove the conduct from the statutory definition of persecution.” It's the flipside of what we're discussing, but it does indicate that intent on the part of the persecutor is not a defining factor.

I don't know if this is what you are looking for or not. Jenhawk777 (talk) 22:39, 15 August 2020 (UTC)

slatersteven's Response

Policy is clear (per wp:v) a source must explicitly say something, if it is not blindingly obvious it fails verifiability. Now we all agree that "religious persecution" is "persecution based upon religion", the only bone of contention is the idea that whether or not just being a christian who is persecuted counts as persecuting someone because of their religion. That would fall under wp:or, as the editor is making a judgement.Slatersteven (talk) 09:14, 16 August 2020 (UTC)

Mediator's 6th Statement

I'm sorry, but Jenhawk777 The sources you provide fail to explicitly state anything other than determining motivation is problematic. They do not justify your position that persecution as a result of actions based in religious beliefs equals religious persecution. They must explicitly say that to count I'm afraid. Otherwise, Slatersteven is correct that is WP:Synthesis and . That combined with the agreement of the other two editors not to include that aspect of the definition equals a consensus at this point. I'm sorry.

So-

1- Adding inline citations for existing information (Does anyone argue this isn't necessary? Does anyone have a problem with this?)

2- Inclusion or Exclusion of German Christians who supported Nazism

3- The definition of religious persecution

• "Religious persecution is the systematic mistreatment of an individual or group of individuals as a response to their religious beliefs"

4- Inclusion or exclusion of Dietrich Bonhoeffer

5- What the sources say/support This has been covered by policy really- sources must explicitly say something to be used. We cannot extrapolate, assume or in anyway synthesize.

So Now that was have a definition- what about Dietrich Bonhoeffer? What do the sources say about the reasons why he was persecuted. Do any of them say that he was persecuted/killed because he was a Christian... Or do any sources specitfically say the actions that caused his perseuction were because of his Christian faith- this can't be assumed- it has to be specifically stated. Nightenbelle (talk) 16:23, 17 August 2020 (UTC)

slatersteven's Response

ON 1 I have long argued we have way too much dubious content there and yes, it all need citing.

As to the rest, if RS say X was persecuted by the Nazis for being a christian, yes we could have one or two examples, but I would rather we just discussed it in more general terms. We cannot have a list of Every Christian persecuted by the Nazis, even it is was due to their faith.Slatersteven (talk) 16:35, 17 August 2020 (UTC)

I agree on 2- I don't want to go through the list of Every Christian to die under the Nazi regime. So you are okay with mentioning a few specific examples as long as they are explicitly covered by RS and confirmed by those RS to have been persecuted because of their Christian faith? Nightenbelle (talk) 16:58, 17 August 2020 (UTC)

Yes, but they would have to be notable examples, and not too detailed. Its a big enough article as it is.Slatersteven (talk) 09:44, 18 August 2020 (UTC)

I also note we have this Nazi persecution of the Catholic Church in Germany, so we really do not need a huge section in another article.Slatersteven (talk) 09:56, 18 August 2020 (UTC)

Objective3000's Response

The article covers a period of 2,000 years, and religious persecution is common. Given this, I don’t see adding any individuals, with or without inline cites or even if sources say the person was specifically persecuted for being a Christian. If we look through this lengthy article, names are generally used of persecutors, not those persecuted. Groups like Jehovah's Witnesses and Bruderhof make sense for inclusion in the Nazi section as they were persecuted en masse by the Nazis. These are obvious examples of Christian persecution as they were all persecuted. O3000 (talk) 17:21, 17 August 2020 (UTC)

There is an article on Bonhoeffer, which is where material about Bonhoeffer belongs. O3000 (talk) 13:58, 18 August 2020 (UTC)

Jenhawk's response

It's okay, don't be sorry. It's just the way these things go sometimes.

• 1 I agree with both you and Slatersteven on #1, but it doesn't matter in the end.
• 2 The German Christians did support the Nazis, but if a statement of persecution for religion is necessary to be included here, why are they being included? They weren't persecuted at all.
• 3 Eh. I object to the term systematic, but it doesn't really matter at this point, so whatever.
• 4 I only have sources that say Bonhoeffer and the Confessing Church were led to oppose Hitler and joined the resistance because of their religious beliefs as their primary reason for doing so, and that they were persecuted for that opposition, but that's all there is anywhere. I have a source identifying theirs as a "theological-political" resistance, but there are no sources that say their persecution was purely based only on their religion and had nothing to do with their participation in the resistance. Separating their motives and actions and the results seems like splitting hairs to me, and the sources don't do that, so if we are doing that, then they can't be here.
• 5 I agree without question concerning RS, and I agree I don't want a list of every Christian that died either. For many, religion was not the primary cause of their resistance, it was just an aspect of who they were, and therefore deserves no mention here. Religion has to be a primary cause of resistance for it to be seen as a cause of persecution. Diocletian never said "go out and kill Christians because they are Christian." He said, 'everyone must sacrifice and those who won't must die', and those that died are all counted as Christian martyrs because their primary reason for resistance was their religion. Just like Bonhoeffer and the CC. I wanted to stay consistent with that, and I think this inconsistency is a problem, but so be it. I concede, so long as the discussion of the German Christians, and the rest that isn't really about those who were persecuted, is removed. So I agree with Objective3000. Jenhawk777 (talk) 18:36, 17 August 2020 (UTC)

This is what is found in pretty much all the sources: "...hatred and animosity pursued Bonhoeffer...His name was included on a secret list of enemies who must not be allowed to escape even if the whole state collapsed...

Alfred Delp and Dietrich Bonhoeffer had both adjudged the nature of Nazism from the viewpoint of their Christian faith, which led them into opposition to the regime, and resulted in their deaths. Their fate and that of the many other churchmen who were executed after 20 July 1944 is standing proof of the implacable enmity of the Nazis toward the churches."

Beginning on page 328 is the conclusion of the book which is worth reading: "The persecution of the churches was the outcome of two of the most significant aspects of the Nazi system... [one being its] ideological fanaticism. The Nazi's ambition to destroy the existing order of society went hand in hand with their determination to propagate a new German racial [worldview]. Their attack on the traditions and institutions ... attempting to drive them into obscurity to die out as unlamented relics of the past. ...there can be no doubt of Hitler's innate antipathy to Christianity ... a 'hoax' and a 'gangrene' which must be cut out (329). And on age 338, "It found in Dietrich Bonhoeffer a martyr whose life and example have become a watchword throughout the world. The courage and energy of Martin Niemollöer in the face of political persecution have redeemed some of the vacillating compromises of weaker men. ...If the era of Nazi persecution has revealed that man is still ready to worship the false gods of nationalism and expediency, it also produced men whose readiness to suffer for their faith saved the church from total apostacy..."

By our definition, that's inadequate, but by all that's good and courageous in this world, that just seems wrong.

References

Jenhawk777 (talk) 22:58, 17 August 2020 (UTC)

Nightenbelle's Final Statement

Then is sounds like we have reached a point where we are all on the same page. While Bonhoeffer does deserve recognition and a page of his on, he does not qualify to be highlighted specifically on this page. Do you guys think you can work on finding the inline sources and inserting them based on talk page discussion or do we need to continue the mediated discussion here for that? It sounds like everyone agrees they need to happen. Nightenbelle (talk) 14:27, 18 August 2020 (UTC)

Editors' Responses

Jenhawk777

We must remove the section that needs sourcing because our definition for inclusion requires persecution directly for faith and the German Christians were not persecuted--for any reason. Jenhawk777 (talk) 17:20, 18 August 2020 (UTC)

Thats the idea- unless someone can find a reliable source that says otherwise. Nightenbelle (talk) 17:21, 18 August 2020 (UTC)

Eighth Statement by Replacement Moderator

I am reopening this case at the request of User:Jenhawk777. The other editors will be notified within a few minutes. Jenhawk777 is requested to make a statement below explaining why they have requested re-opening. Robert McClenon (talk) 18:46, 21 August 2020 (UTC)

The statement by User:Jenhawk777 is limited to 200 words, as are any other statements. Be civil and concise. Overly long statements do not explain the issues any better than shorter statements. Robert McClenon (talk) 18:47, 21 August 2020 (UTC)

Eighth Statements by Editors

Explanation by User:Jenhawk777

• A section in the article includes the German Christians who supported Hitler; it has no inline citations. We agreed it needs citations, but I had asked about just removing it instead. It doesn't meet the definition of persecution we agreed to. That removal was not discussed.
• These quotes are used as proof there was consensus on keeping it: Slatersteven says We cannot have a list of Every Christian persecuted by the Nazis, even it is was due to their faith. just as Objective3000 says Given this, I don’t see adding any individuals, with or without inline cites or even if sources say the person was specifically persecuted for being a Christian. That's about adding Bonhoeffer. The German Christians were a group not an individual, and they were already in the article, so there would have been no discussion of adding them.
• However, if I am mistaken, and Slatersteven and Objective3000 actually thought these statements were about the German Christian paragraph, then there is consensus to remove it, not keep it. It seems to me it can't be interpreted both ways.

statement by User:slatersteven

Unsourced content should be removed, but I am not the only one there. I am not sure I understand the rest.Slatersteven (talk) 09:12, 23 August 2020 (UTC)

Ninth Statement by Moderator

Jenhawk777: Exactly what is your issue about article content that is why you wanted this dispute reopened? It isn't clear. Please identify one to three changes to the article that you are requesting. Do not say that unsourced content should be removed; say what unsourced content should be removed. Be specific and clear.

Both: Should the paragraph about German Christians be removed? Be brief and clear. Robert McClenon (talk) 06:08, 24 August 2020 (UTC)

Ninth Statements by Editors

Jenhawk777

Apparently, what I most objected to has now been removed and slightly rewritten. No one pinged me to let me know, so I just discovered it, but it's now good enough for me to support the content of the first four sentences as they are. I don't know who did it or when, but I thank them.

As to referencing, I'd just like to see a little clean up, that's all. These sentences have a pile of 9 references all in a row at their end, that need to be inline citations of those sentences they actually refer to, with the extras removed. It's impossible for anyone to check them as they are.

The sentence that begins, "The Third Reich founded its own version of Christianity ..." is an aspect of how the Nazis persecuted the churches, so it's relevant to the topic, and should be kept. However, in order to fully represent what sources say about it, I would like to see a second sentence added--"This is what (sources) say led to the development of the Confessing Church and what Protestant opposition to Nazis there was." This makes no claims concerning persecution, so perhaps we could agree to add that one statement without fighting over it.

That's it. The rest has been fixed.

Thank you Robert McClenon for doing this. It's amazingly wonderful that you responded as you did. You listened. I'm deeply grateful.

I also respect, appreciate and admire Slatersteven's objectivity, reasonableness and commitment to good content (no matter how irritating their opponent is), but I will be sure and tell them that personally.

Thank you both. Jenhawk777 (talk) 17:48, 24 August 2020 (UTC)

Slatersteven

Given there are 9 sources in that paragraph, no not a blanket removal. But yes much of it needs removing or re-writing.Slatersteven (talk) 08:59, 24 August 2020 (UTC)

I agree how it was sourced was awful. But its just a question of reworking.Slatersteven (talk) 18:17, 24 August 2020 (UTC)

Tenth Statement by Moderator

Is there anything else that needs to be mediated? I will close the case if there is nothing else to mediate. If there are any remaining issues, please make a statement of not more than 100 words for each issue. Robert McClenon (talk) 02:40, 25 August 2020 (UTC)

Tenth Statements by Editors

Jenhawk777

Not for me. The German Christians are no longer mentioned. All my original complaints have been addressed. I didn't get to add in what I wanted, but that was consensus, and I said from the start that I was okay either adding balance or removing imbalance, and since removal has happened, I'm good. I assume whoever has been fixing the rest of it will finish inline citations. Thank you again for your willingness to help. Jenhawk777 (talk) 03:22, 25 August 2020 (UTC)

Slatersteven

.

The King: Eternal Monarch

– Discussion in progress.

Filed by CherryPie94 on 12:26, 14 August 2020 (UTC).

Have you discussed this on a talk page?

Yes, I have discussed this issue on a talk page already.

Location of dispute

• The King: Eternal Monarch (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)

Users involved

• CherryPie94 (talk · contribs)
• Lizzydarcy2008 (talk · contribs)

Dispute overview

The dispute is with User:Lizzydarcy2008, who is a fan, repeated removal of any well-source sentences stating that the series received low TV viewership. Though it is against Wikipedia:Manual of Style/Lead section (The lead should stand on its own as a concise overview of the article's topic. It should identify the topic, establish context, explain why the topic is notable, and summarize the most important points, including any prominent controversies.), they want to keep the top section as a promotional only-positive paragraph, including irrelevant sentence about the production company "beating the market consensus" and "reached a record; non-captive revenue skyrocketed 646% YoY", and remove any mention of bad ratings and criticism the series received, claiming it is a "smear campaign" and that Wikipedia is a "tabloid article" for mentioning bad ratings. The editor keeps using original research and stating opinions as fact by repeating, "The TV industry in South Korea has conceded that, because of Netflix, local viewership is not anymore a key metric, so even the Ratings section may be obsolete." I tried to explain that pages should have Neutral point of view and also compromised by editing the sentences + wording many times to make it as neutral as possible after reading wikipedia:Criticism and wikipedia:CLAIM but the editor still has an issue understanding. I explained more here, also you could see in the page's history how the user is biased and removes facts they don't like. I’m trying to solve it peacefully here, but not sure if this is a case of conflict of interest, Disruption-only account, or Single-purpose account as this sleeper account did not contribute to Wikipedia for years and now only removes any criticism on the page in question and add puffery. Also, it could be sockpuppetry because one admin already caught 26 other sock puppets on the same page having the same positive-only no negative edits. CherryPie94 🍒🥧 (talk) 20:55, 14 August 2020 (UTC)

How have you tried to resolve this dispute before coming here?

Talk:The_King:_Eternal_Monarch#Proposed_updates_to_second_paragraph_of_page
User_talk:CherryPie94#Replying_to_your_note_about_The_King_Eternal_Monarch
User_talk:CherryPie94#More_changes_to_The_King_Eternal_Monarch
User_talk:Explicit#The_King:_Eternal_Monarch

How do you think we can help resolve the dispute?

Explain to User:Lizzydarcy2008 that Wikipedia should not be censored and used for Advertising, marketing or public relations, and should have a Neutral point of view. Also provide feedback to help make the page as neutral as possible.

Summary of dispute by Lizzydarcy2008

This page skews negatively and I have been trying to make it neutral. It currently looks like Wikipedia cannot help taunting this series.

Most kdramas have one paragraph before the Table of Contents. Other kdramas have second paragraphs highlighting their notable achievements. The second paragraph of this drama contains stones detractors love to throw at it - high production costs and lower-than-expected ratings.

This drama has borne the brunt of the surge of popularity of Netflix in South Korea. While it was airing, nobody could fully understand why the ratings were lower than expected. Only when the same thing happened to kdramas that aired later in the year did local TV industry realize what had happened. As streaming services became more popular in South Korea, Nielsen ratings have become inadequate in measuring a kdrama’s performance.

One thing to note, the Nielsen ratings of this drama are solid, not low. The reason they are said to be lower-than-expected is because of high expectations due to the big production budget and the popularity of the writer, director and actors. But since the ratings have been explained by the Netflix effect, the high production budget has become a non-issue. The stunning profit report of the production company has also justified it. Yet detractors of this drama keep pointing out its high production budget and lower-than-expected ratings.

Knowing these, anybody with a sense of justice would see why highlighting the high production budget and lower-than-expected ratings in the second paragraph of the page is ignorant, unfair, malicious and deceptive. The production budget is already mentioned at the right side of the page as well as in the Production section. The ratings are in the Ratings section. Why cherry-pick them outside those sections? It is bad enough that the Ratings section contains inaccurate representation of the drama’s performance.

Regarding the allegations about me being an obsessed fan and a sockpuppet, it seems, like this drama, I have to endure taunting and a smear campaign. But outing my IP address, after I forgot, one time, to log in before editing a Talk page, is going too far. It’s time to ask, does this drama have an obsessed detractor?

There is more information in “Proposed updates to second paragraph of page” in https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:The_King:_Eternal_Monarch##.Lizzydarcy2008 (talk) 04:16, 17 August 2020 (UTC)

I am not volunteering to take on this dispute because I"m already mediating a pretty involved one- but I will say- this explanation is WAY to long and needs to be condensed under the 2000 word limit. I understand you are passionate about this issue- but this wall of text indicates to potential volunteers that you will not be able to follow other rules/recomendations while mediating and will make them less likely to want to volunteer. Remember- not every detail needs to be expressed here. During the discussion there will be time to make sure every point is covered. Nightenbelle (talk) 17:43, 17 August 2020 (UTC)

I saw other summaries exceeding the limit, so I thought it was ok to exceed a little. In any case, I updated the summary to observe the limit. Thanks! Lizzydarcy2008 (talk) 19:41, 17 August 2020 (UTC)

The King: Eternal Monarch discussion

Please keep discussion to a minimum before being opened by a volunteer. Continue on article talk page if necessary.

First Statement by Moderator

I will try to moderate this dispute. I don't know anything about the subject matter except that it appears to be a Korean TV series, and I expect that the participants will provide any background information that is needed. Read and follow the rules. If you are not sure about the rules, do not guess that something is permitted. It probably isn't. The rules are quite restrictive, and are meant to be restrictive. Comment on content, not contributors. That means do not talk about the other editors. The purpose of this discussion is to improve the article, not to improve the other editors. Be civil and concise. I will stress being concise, because in most recent disputes the inability or unwillingness of the editors to follow very strict word limits has made it difficult for an outsider to know exactly what the issues are. Do not engage in back-and-forth discussion. I will ask the questions. If you aren't willing to let me ask the questions, you can go back to discussing the case yourselves, but we know that did not resolve the matter.

Now, what the editors may do is to provide a statement consisting of up to three paragraphs, each paragraph of no more than 100 words, each paragraph stating an issue that you want changed or left as it is in the article. Detailed explanations, if in order, can wait until another round.

Overly long statements will be collapsed. Back-and-forth discussion will be collapsed. Each editor should provide a statement of not more than three short paragraphs, saying what you want changed (or left unchanged). Robert McClenon (talk) 21:53, 19 August 2020 (UTC)

First Statements by Editors

CherryPie94's response

@Robert McClenon: Currently on the series's lead section, we have one sentence about the low TV ratings, which is preceded by positive statements. However, Lizzydarcy2008 argues that any negative statements have to be removed and that we have to keep only positive statements on the lead section. Lizzydarcy2008 also wants to add that the the production company "beating the market consensus" and "reached a record; non-captive revenue skyrocketed 646% YoY", which are not even related to the series, and they demand that we remove mention of the budget in the lead section claiming it is a negative statement that should not be there. Personally, I see that the current lead section summaries the article perfectly and needs no changes, but Lizzydarcy2008 keeps edit warring, so we need your help.

On the reception section, Lizzydarcy2008 wants to remove well-sources statements (I can get over 20+ articles about it) explaining the ratings (started good, but went down). They also flipped the section's paragraphs structure to keep the criticism first, followed by the series's basic reception info, and then the praise (previously it was series's basic reception info --> praise --> criticism), saying that it shows that the series "prevailed" at the end. The section now is very unorganized to be honest, see the previous version and compare. I think the basic info such as the ratings and series's achievements should come first as that is the most important in that section. Edit: forgot to mention they also want to add that the series was ranked #1 on the daily Netflix charts in XXX countries by using flixpetrol or articles that uses flixpetrol data (deemed unreliable by Wikipedia; flixpetrol disclaimer Ranking points do not represent the actual numbers of viewings. other users also removing those number). I told them that other Netflix originals, Money Heist and Dark, are more popular per flixpetrol data but they don't use such numbers on Wikipedia as it is insignificant, unreliable, and the numbers keep changing daily on flixpetrol (this series was #25, then #19, then #9, and now #12).

I already fixed a lot of issues that caused the page not to be neutral, such as wording, by editing the sentences and changing words to neutral words per [[wikipedia:CLAIM] many times. Also after reading wikipedia:Criticism, I further improved it by changing the sub-section title from "Controversy" to "Historical inaccuracy and broadcast warnings" (read discussion here), but that led to more edit warring. CherryPie94 🍒🥧 (talk) 11:38, 20 August 2020 (UTC)

Lizzydarcy2008's response

@Robert McClenon: This page is currently negative because we are repeating negative points about the drama. I am not suggesting we remove the negative points. I am suggesting we avoid repeating them. I have been removing the repetitions. The ratings are already in the Ratings section yet we mention them three times more. Other kdramas don't mention them outside the Ratings section. Take, for example, kdrama “Melting Me Softly”. It has much lower ratings than this drama. Yet its ratings are only mentioned in the Ratings section.

The production costs are mentioned three times in this page. Most kdramas don’t mention production costs at all. Those that do mention production costs put them at the summary section at the right side of the page. Take, for example, kdrama “Arthdal Chronicles”. It incurred higher production costs, yet they are only mentioned at the right side of the page. I have explained in my dispute summary why the high production costs and ratings are misleading in the first place. And yet we keep repeating them. This repetition not only makes the page negative, it also makes it sloppy.

Not all kdramas have second paragraphs before the Table of Contents. Those that do, list their achievements in this paragraph. Examples are kdramas “Crash Landing On You” and “Mr. Sunshine”. Yet, we are repeating negative points that are already mentioned in other parts of the page in the second paragraph of this drama. My suggested text for the second paragraph (please see last suggestion in Talk page of drama) follows that of other kdramas - a straightforward enumeration of achievements. Regarding the title “Historical Inaccuracy and Broadcast Warnings”, “Inaccuracy” is against wp:CSECTION rule not to have titles with negative connotation. Lizzydarcy2008 (talk) 05:43, 21 August 2020 (UTC)

Second Statement by Moderator

I see three areas of dispute. The first is the first paragraph of the lede section. The second is whether there should be a second paragraph in the lede section. The third has to do with the Reception section. I am asking whether that is an accurate breakdown of the issues.

About the first paragraph of the lede section, does the issue have to do with non-neutral language? My third-party opinion is that the language in the first paragraph of the lede is non-neutral, but we will discuss.

What is the issue about the Reception section?

Do not refer to the other editor by name. We are not here to discuss editors, but to improve the article.

I see references to kdrama. Does that mean Korean drama? Is that a genre that we have an article about? Are kdramas a distinctive aspect of the popular culture of South Korea? If not, but if it makes a difference to the dispute, can someone write a draft providing any general information about the distinctive features of kdrama?

I am aware that I am asking you to restate very briefly matters that you may have already stated at length. I have a few reasons for wanting you to make very concise statements. If this moderation fails, we will resolve this with a Request for Comments, which will ask outside editors to state their opinions. You will need to be concise if you are trying to persuade outside editors in an RFC.

Have the areas of disagreement been accurately summarized? Robert McClenon (talk) 14:59, 21 August 2020 (UTC)

Second Statements by Editors

CherryPie94

Yes, those are mainly the three issues causing the dispute. I will reply to each point first:
1. Lead section follows the Wikipedia:Manual of Style/Words to watch, but if you think it is not neutral, then please suggest a fix.
2. I see no issue with including a second paragraph in the lead section, as this page has more text compared to other k-series pages. Per MOS:LEADLENGTH, there should be one or two paragraphs if the page is fewer than 15,000 characters, but the series page has 60,931 character, which is 15,719 characters with no space (18,719 with space) when counting only readers text, not counting the lead, section title, or wiki text (tables and templates), so should have Two or three paragraphs.
3. I have no issue with the text in the Reception section, except that it is not organized properly compared to before. See the previous version and compare with the current version. I think the basic info such as the ratings and series's achievements should come first, as that is the most important in that section, and then praise and criticism. A suggested fix on my sandbox: User:CherryPie94/sandbox
Korean drama/k-drama is not a genre, it just means a South Korean TV series. K-series started gaining popular oversees since 2010-2012. There is not really any distinctive features. It is just like if you are American watching another countries TV series, Asian, Arabic, Latin, or Africa TV series. The culture and language are different, but in the end it is a TV series. Only technical difference is that Nielsen Media Research measures US series ratings by the number of watcher see Game_of_Thrones#Viewership, while Korean use percentage (#% of the population of South Korea saw it, for example, 50% means almost half of the Koreans saw the series). Also K-series tend to just be one season (unlike American TV series).
My main request is not using unreliable sources and data (flixpetrol data) and not skewing the article in one direction (positive only, removing criticism and mention of bad ratings) by deleting text for no reason. CherryPie94 🍒🥧 (talk) 20:18, 21 August 2020 (UTC)

Lizzydarcy2008

As far as I know, the second paragraph of the lede section is the first area of dispute. It violates the rule about this section maintaining a neutral point of view. It mentions negative information like high production budget, lower-than-expected ratings and criticisms. It also includes the term “hit” which is discouraged per MOS:INTRO. I don’t have objections to removing this paragraph altogether.

The second area of dispute is the Reception section. First, the rating numbers that are already listed in the Ratings section are repeated in the Reception section. Second, the structure currently has a chronological order to have a narrative flow. The order is based on the dates of the references. Third, an article about the international success of the drama was rejected because it allegedly cited Flixpatrol as reference. The reference is a magazine published by the Korean Foundation for International Culture Exchange. The third area of dispute is the section name “Historical Inaccuracies” that has negative connotation, violating wp:CSECTION.

Kdramas are featured in https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Korean_drama. They are TV series made in South Korea. They used to be mainly watched through domestic or cable TV channels. The surge of popularity of streaming services like Netflix while The King Eternal Monarch was airing exposed the inadequacy of Nielsen ratings in measuring the success of kdramas in the streaming age. That is, the Ratings section of this page is highly misleading. The drama is an international success but the Ratings section which only includes domestic TV viewership numbers does not show this. Lizzydarcy2008 (talk) 08:14, 22 August 2020 (UTC)

Third Statement by Moderator

I would like each editor to list a few points as to what they want to do to improve the article. It is important to be specific about what you are asking, because we might have to resolve this with a Request for Comments, and vaguely worded RFCs are a mess, but RFCs with specific wording usually result in a yes or no consensus. My objective is to get proposed wording changes for any specific paragraphs that anyone thinks need to be reworded.

Correction: I mistakenly said that I thought the first paragraph of the lede section was non-neutral. Is there any issue about the first paragraph of the lede section? Please identify any such issue as Point 1.

As Point 2, will each editor please state whether their first choice about the second paragraph of the lede is to delete it, leave it as is, or rework it. Also indicate the second choice. If you want to rework it, you may provide a draft of the paragraph, but be concise about any discussion of a draft.

As Point 3, you may propose a revised wording of the Reception section.

As Point 4, you may make any brief suggestions about the Historical Inaccuracies, if you want anything changed.

As Point 5, name any other points that you want discussed in more detail.

Robert McClenon (talk) 19:53, 22 August 2020 (UTC)

Third Statements by Editors

CherryPie94

1. I see no issue with it.
2. Leave as is. The current paragraph is neutral and shows both sides, it also summaries all sub-section in the series. Keeping only positive text and achievements is not neutral and seems like an advertisement. Adding only streaming achievement and deliberately removing mention of TV ratings is misleading as it make it seem like the series was only praised, while in reality lots of South Korean media wrote about its failure on TV. See Game of Thrones's lead, they both included mention of praise and criticism. Also, as I said in my previous comment, the second paragraph should not be removed as the page matches the length for 2-3 lead paragraphs per MOS:LEADLENGTH. Other K-series have second paragraphs too, see Big (TV series), Guardian: The Lonely and Great God and Kingdom. Wikipedia guidelines apply to all pages, K-series do not have their own guidelines, we should compare to good articles like Game_of_Thrones, not half-done K-series pages.
3. My suggestion for the reception section User:CherryPie94/sandbox. I did not add any new text, just rearranged things.
4. (We had a very long discussion + edit warring about here: Talk:The_King:_Eternal_Monarch#Historical_inaccuracy). Basically, the previous sub-section title was "Controversy", I replaced it with ‎"Historical inaccuracy and broadcast warning". I chose "Historical inaccuracy" because Article #1 and Article #2, as well as other Korean news papers, all refer to it as historical details. Per WP:CSECTION, "Sections or article titles should generally not include the word "controversies". Instead, titles should simply name the event, for example, "2009 boycott" or "Hunting incident"." ‎The sub-section title, Historical inaccuracy and broadcast warning, summaries the section perfectly, just like the Game of Thrones controversies Sex and violence and Lighting issues.
5. I have nothing else, just wish for edit warring to stop and for us to go back and contribute like normal without text being removed continuously. My main request is, please do not using unreliable sources and data (flixpetrol data) and please do not skewing the article in one direction (positive only, removing criticism and mention of bad ratings) by deleting text for no reason like it has been done multiple of time now. If this continue, I think we should move the dispute to a different noticeboard as this involves Wikipedia:Advocacy. CherryPie94 🍒🥧 (talk) 21:20, 22 August 2020 (UTC)

Lizzydarcy2008

1. The only issue I see with the first paragraph is that the South Korea OTT provider Wavve which is mentioned in subsequent sections should also be introduced here like SBS and Netflix. My suggestion is to add the following: The series was also shown over the South Korean streaming service, Wavve.

2. I have no objection to removing the second paragraph. Most kdramas I checked have no second paragraph. However, if one is needed, please see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Lizzydarcy2008/sandbox#Second_Paragraph for my suggested text.

3. Please see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Lizzydarcy2008/sandbox#Reception for my suggested text for the Reception section. Note how much cleaner the first sentence is by not repeating the rating numbers that are already listed in the Ratings section.

4. I put Historical Inaccuracy as a sub-section under Reception section and renamed it Cultural Disputes. Since this is a fantasy drama, a section about "historical inaccuracies" does not make sense (see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:The_King:_Eternal_Monarch#Historical_inaccuracy). "Cultural Disputes" might also sound incongruous in a fantasy drama since the writer can make up any culture she wants for her fantasy world, however, it is not as nonsensical as "historical inaccuracy". In addition, the word "inaccuracy" has a negative connotation that is discouraged for section names. I also put the advisory warnings as a separate sub-section under Reception.

5. This page skews negatively mainly because negative points are being mentioned three or four times. Compare this page with those of other kdramas and you will see the stark negativity of this page. That several edit wars had erupted over this page could mean several editors have noticed such negativity and have tried to correct the situation. Contrary to what detractors might think, editors are trying to keep this page fair to heed their sense of justice, not because they are promoters of this series. I want to make sure Wikipedia is not being used as a tool for a smear campaign against this series, just as I had been smeared with allegations of being an obsessed fan and a sock-puppet, not to mention getting a notice of edit warring discussion while I am in the middle of this dispute resolution discussion. It seems harassment of other editors, not just of this drama is the name of the game here. I would also like to talk about the use of Flixpatrol data as reference in Wikipedia. Is this the right forum to discuss this? Lizzydarcy2008 (talk) 08:21, 23 August 2020 (UTC)

Fourth Statement by Moderator

Wait a minute! Did User:CherryPie94 just write: "I have nothing else, just wish for edit warring to stop and for us to go back and contribute like normal without text being removed continuously."? Has Cherrypie been editing the article? What edit-warring are they asking to stop? Did you read the instructions that said not to edit the article? Do I need to revert the article to the last edit made by a non-party? Please explain. I will make a fifth statement later today, which may resume the discussion or may fail the discussion. I expected that you would actually read the rules. Maybe I need to wave them at you or something. Robert McClenon (talk) 05:35, 24 August 2020 (UTC)

Fourth Statements by Editors

CherryPie94

1. On the 15th, I changed the sub-section title per WP:CSECTION, which was not part of the dispute to follow, and was prior to your moderation (you came of the 19th August). But that caused edit warring that we tried to disuses separately but it did not work, and I reported it here after being reverted 3 times for no reason Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/3RRArchive414#User: Lizzydarcy2008 reported by User:CherryPie94 (Result: ).
2. When you started moderating, I only done few changes (less than 10 on the page) after seeing your comment.

• I added the sub-section title "Development" and sources.
• I used Template:ill to link a person's page.
• Yesterday, I just added the rating tables for number of viewers in South Korea, which is also not part of the dispute.
• I fixed a source that was used in the lead and reception section.

3. As you can see, I did not touch anything related to the dispute and I'm sorry, I really did not see Wikipedia:DRN Rule A as the noticeboard did not seem to link it. You can revert my changes if you want, but they are unrelated to the dispute and other people worked on them too (just make sure other people's work is not gone).
4. I did not out anyone's IP and you can see that from the admins response in the investigation. I reported the sock-puppetry because multiple users were having the same edits that never overlapped, which was weird. The page already had 26 other sock-puppets, so I wanted to make sure we are not dealing with more and wasting our time. I'm not harassing anyone, as I said, I want to improve the page but reverts were made every single day because of wp:advocacy and it is the first time I faced an advocate and really don't know what to do or where to report it.
Edit: I edited my sandbox replacing "Historical inaccuracy and broadcast warning" with "Stock images and historical costume inaccuracy". Hopefully, Lizzydarcy2008 agrees. CherryPie94 🍒🥧 (talk) 09:29, 24 August 2020 (UTC)

Lizzydarcy2008

@Robert McClenon: After filing this dispute resolution discussion, User:CherryPie94 updated the title of the section "Controversy" to "Historical Inaccuracies...". We edit-warred, with me undoing her changes and she undoing my changes three times, though on different days so did not violate 3RR. She made 27 other changes from the time this dispute resolution discussion was filed. She also filed an edit-warring discussion against me as well as a sock-puppetry investigation on me, outing my IP address, requiring me to have my IP address updated with my ISP. Surely there is a rule against harassment of other editors? Lizzydarcy2008 (talk)

Fifth Statement by Moderator

DRN Rule A isn't mentioned in the noticeboard header because it is an optional rule that many moderators use most of the time. There is also DRN Rule B, which permits back-and-forth discussion. If the moderator says to read the rules, it means to read the rules. Apparently I need to be more forceful in telling editors to read the rules and what the rules are.

The purpose of discussion here is to improve the article, which means we should focus on the article, not on conduct.

We will have a Request for Comments on whether to keep the second paragraph of the lede.

We will have a Request for Comments on which of two versions of the Reception section.

There are rules against harassment and against sockpuppetry. If anyone thinks that there has been harassment, they may report it at WP:ANI. That will close this discussion.

Are there any other issues? Robert McClenon (talk) 14:53, 24 August 2020 (UTC)

Fifth Statements by Editors

Lizzydarcy2008

What happened to the Ratings section of this page? Another change had just been made that I've just noticed now. Most kdramas that have rating data have a Ratings section. May we put this section back to be consistent with other kdramas? In the newly updated page, what used to be Ratings section had been put under Reception and renamed to Viewership with new pieces of information that are even incomplete. What is 1.76? In millions? After all my explanations about ratings, this smacks of malice and spitefulness. May I revert these changes?

Contrary to what is being alleged, the edits I've made to this page are not to add puffery, but to neutralize the negativity of the page. All positive remarks are backed by sources. Note, there are no references to Flixpatrol. Information about the drama's commercial performance is based off Hallyu Issue magazine of the Korean Foundation for International Culture Exchange (KOFICE). Another thing pointed out was my suggestion to talk about the production company "beating the market consensus" and "reached a record; non-captive revenue skyrocketed 646% YoY". That was to neutralize the discussion about the production budget in the second paragraph. My final suggestion for the second paragraph was to remove mention of the production budget at all since it is already mentioned in two other sections of the page.

It appears that mentioning negative points three or more times is allowed yet positive remarks are called puffery? I never suggested we remove negative points. All I've been trying to do is to stop ramming them down readers' throats by repeating them several times, especially since they are misleading in the first place. With the popularity of streaming services like Netflix, TV industry insiders in South Korea have realized that Nielsen ratings are not anymore accurate reflection of a kdrama's performance. Yet currently, we are ramming the Nielsen ratings down readers' throats six times in this page. Even worse-performing kdramas have not been treated this horribly. Note, these ratings are not low - they are solid, though detractors of this drama keep insisting they are low. And now Wikipedia has been made party to this injustice.

Regarding the second paragraph, if there is going to be one, I have suggested this text https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Lizzydarcy2008/sandbox#Second_Paragraph which is consistent with the second paragraph of other kdramas, e.g. Crash Landing On You and Mr. Sunshine, that list the kdramas' notable achievements.

Regarding the "Historical Inaccuracy" section title, considering the length of the discussion about it in the Talk page of the topic, the allegation that the change was "reverted 3 times FOR NO REASON" is untrue. The problem is that my explanations about my edits to this page have fallen on deaf ears. May I summarize, for the nth time: Please compare this page with those of other kdramas. The negativity and sloppiness of this page should be obvious to any unbiased reader who has read encyclopedias. Those who firmly believe Wikipedia should not be used as a tool for smear campaign should be indignant at the repetition of negative points.

Just like this drama, my name had been dragged through the mud, having been repeatedly accused of being an obsessed fan, of adding unsourced puffery, as well as of advocacy and sockpuppetry, probably to harass or intimidate me or to sully my credibility. All I have been trying to do was to preserve Wikipedia's integrity. But I will not file for harassment as I try not to be consumed by malice and spite. All I hope is that whoever comments on the proposed changes would read my explanations with open minds and decide fairly.

What is the certainty of the impartiality of those who are going to give comments?

Lizzydarcy2008 (talk) 08:31, 25 August 2020 (UTC)

CherryPie94

Thanks for all your work and sorry if I violating any rules in regard to the Dispute resolution noticeboard. Can we have the link to the Request for Comments on both the second paragraph of the lead and the reception section? CherryPie94 🍒🥧 (talk) 15:06, 24 August 2020 (UTC)

Jai Shri Ram

– General close. See comments for reasoning.

Filed by Parassharma1 on 19:04, 21 August 2020 (UTC).

Closed discussion

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the dispute resolution noticeboard's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion. Have you discussed this on a talk page? Yes, I have discussed this issue on a talk page already. Location of dispute Jai Shri Ram (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs) Users involved Parassharma1 (talk · contribs) MelbourneStar☆ (talk · contribs) Dispute overview Dear admins, According to MOS:LEAD the lead should be neutral. If you just go through the format of lead you could see that it is clearly mentioned how the lead should be descriptive and neutral. Takbir being used by the infamous terrorist group as a war cry is not mentioned in its Lead. Please note that I am not writing it because I want it but because this is a particular format should be followed by your editors too. You people are human too and can have biases (No offense). I have seen one admin here is an atheist, I hope he does not have something personal against Hindus just because of conservative BJP party. One thing I want to state clearly is that I have no problem with criticizing the use in an appropriate column such as Takbir but the description should be neutral without the last lines. Thank you. How have you tried to resolve this dispute before coming here? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:MelbourneStar#Removal https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Jai_Shri_Ram#MOS_Clearly_states_that_the_introduction_should_be_nuetral https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Newslinger#Removal_of_my_Edit How do you think we can help resolve the dispute? First, you could please make the initiative by acknowledging the editors to follow the format of the lead which is set out by Wikipedia. It would be appreciated to put out the use of Jai Shri Ram as war cry on a particular column and not in the description, not only this hurts the value of the sentiments but also totally tear out the neutral approach that is set out by Wikipedia. Please look into it, thank you. Summary of dispute by MelbourneStar☆ Parassharma1 hadn't notified me about this DRN discussion, but nevertheless: to understand MOS:LEAD as only a puffery summary of the article without mentioning significant (even negative) aspects of said article, is to wholly misunderstand MOS:LEAD. The lead, especially the phrase "war cry", is backed by consensus which Parassharma1 should be well aware of. The latter editor has consistently refused to get the point and simply doesn't like what they read, resorting to comparing this article -- to an unrelated one. This has resulted in an IPA topic ban, which they have violated repeatedly. Once Parassharma1 returns, I would encourage them that they drop the stick and conform with their topic ban. Regards, —MelbourneStar☆talk 03:59, 22 August 2020 (UTC) Jai Shri Ram discussion Please keep discussion to a minimum before being opened by a volunteer. Continue on article talk page if necessary. I've blocked the filer for a week for violating their IPA topic ban. Doug Weller talk 20:04, 21 August 2020 (UTC) The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the dispute resolution noticeboard's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Ideological bias_on_Wikipedia

– General close. See comments for reasoning.

Filed by Cwarrior on 16:43, 22 August 2020 (UTC).

Closed discussion

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the dispute resolution noticeboard's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion. Have you discussed this on a talk page? Yes, I have discussed this issue on a talk page already. Location of dispute Ideological bias on Wikipedia (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs) Users involved Cwarrior (talk · contribs) Tayi_Arajakate (talk · contribs) Mukt (talk · contribs) Aquillion (talk · contribs) Dispute overview I added a description about new claims of bias on Aug 14, 2020 [5]. These changes were built upon by another user, Mukt, but were promptly reverted by Tayi_Arajakate without starting any discussion. I started a new thread on the Talk page to discuss this issue. While users questioned about the objectivity of the claims, a consensus was reached that we could describe these claims of bias. No further comments were added to the talk page. Earlier today I proceeded to add the relevant content but was hit by multiple reverts again by Tayi_Arajakate. It is only after these reverts some comments were added by Aquillion which I have sufficiently responded to. The content in question is well within the scope of discussion of the article and must be added to the page. How have you tried to resolve this dispute before coming here? Talk:Ideological_bias_on_Wikipedia#Anti-Hindu_and_Anti-India_bias How do you think we can help resolve the dispute? Please help resolve whether this claim of bias be discussed or not. Summary of dispute by Tayi_Arajakate Please keep it brief - less than 2000 characters if possible, it helps us help you quicker. Summary of dispute by Mukt Please keep it brief - less than 2000 characters if possible, it helps us help you quicker. Summary of dispute by Aquillion Please keep it brief - less than 2000 characters if possible, it helps us help you quicker. Ideological bias_on_Wikipedia discussion Please keep discussion to a minimum before being opened by a volunteer. Continue on article talk page if necessary. Volunteer Note - The filing editor has not notified the other editors that this thread has been filed, and should do so as soon as possible. Robert McClenon (talk) 17:38, 22 August 2020 (UTC) The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the dispute resolution noticeboard's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Principal component analysis

– New discussion.

Filed by AP295 on 18:59, 22 August 2020 (UTC).

Have you discussed this on a talk page?

Yes, I have discussed this issue on a talk page already.

Location of dispute

• Principal component analysis (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)

Users involved

• AP295 (talk · contribs)
• Dicklyon (talk · contribs)
• Gufosowa (talk · contribs)

Dispute overview

We cannot reach a consensus on the content of the introductory paragraph

How have you tried to resolve this dispute before coming here?

Please see my comments in the article history and on the talk page.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Principal_component_analysis https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Principal_component_analysis&action=history

How do you think we can help resolve the dispute?

Editors who are mathematicians with a background in linear algebra may be able to resolve this dispute. I am new to WP and do not know many editors.

Summary of dispute by Dicklyon

Note: I also appealed for help already at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Statistics. But wikiprojects tend to be in a coma, so I don't expect much.

User:AP295 is a new editor who has edited almost nothing but this article. He thinks a major rewrite his way, starting with the lead paragraph, will turn it from a "travesty" into something pretty good. He doesn't have the experience of writing leads, or of collaborating with editors who push back on him. So it's hard going. I jumped in to help when pinged, and tried to incorporate his preferred approach a bit in the lead, but he has taken a nothing-but-revert approach (until I gave him a 3RR warning today). Dicklyon (talk) 22:53, 22 August 2020 (UTC)

Looking back over his edits, I think the article was in much better shape before AP295's first edit in March 2020. Dicklyon (talk) 17:20, 23 August 2020 (UTC)

Summary of dispute by Gufosowa

A while back, I noticed that the PCA article had a substandard entry paragraph and tried to make the lead more encyclopedic. I think it had a bad lead because 1) the lead introduces trivial concepts that have their own pages in Wikipedia, 2) The lead focuses on the methodology (how) as if an engineering textbook rather than the definition (what) as an encyclopedia should do.

Everyone agrees that the article does not have a standard lead. However, AP295 puts a barrier on the attempts to fix it. The user reverted all the attempts (1(reason) 2 3 4 5) by opposing small details (single keyword) which he could simply modify. --Gufosowa (talk) 11:57, 23 August 2020 (UTC)

Principal component analysis discussion

Please keep discussion to a minimum before being opened by a volunteer. Continue on article talk page if necessary.

Volunteer's Note Filing editor has not notified users on their talk page- although they seem to be aware.Nightenbelle (talk) 14:46, 24 August 2020 (UTC)

He let us know at the talk page discussion. Dicklyon (talk) 00:25, 25 August 2020 (UTC)

Tesla, Inc.

– New discussion.

Filed by Stonkaments on 23:50, 23 August 2020 (UTC).

Have you discussed this on a talk page?

Yes, I have discussed this issue on a talk page already.

Location of dispute

• Tesla, Inc. (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)

Users involved

• Stonkaments (talk · contribs)
• QRep2020 (talk · contribs)
• Stepho-wrs (talk · contribs)
• MartinezMD (talk · contribs)
• A7V2 (talk · contribs)
• IPBilly (talk · contribs)

Dispute overview

There is disagreement as to whether Elon Musk, J.B. Straubel and Ian Wright should be listed as founders in the Tesla, Inc. infobox. As the footnote in the infobox notes, Martin Eberhard and Marc Tarpenning were the original founders of Tesla; Musk, Straubel, and Wright only negotiated to call themselves co-founders after-the-fact, in a lawsuit settlement in 2009. As shown on the talk page discussion, reliable sources consistently and clearly name only Eberhard and Tarpenning as the sole co-founders of Tesla. I believe the infobox should reflect the determination made by these reliable sources, and only list Eberhard and Tarpenning as founders. Editors opposed to this change argue that the lawsuit settlement means the true founders of the company is now a "disputed" fact, which should be recognized by including Musk, Straubel, and Wright as founders as well. This feels to me like allowing the involved parties to re-write history, because the verifiable facts show that the true founders were only Eberhard and Tarpenning. The additional context of the lawsuit and settlement allowing Musk, Straubel, and Wright to call themselves co-founders is better suited for the article's main text, not the infobox.

How have you tried to resolve this dispute before coming here?

• Talk:Tesla,_Inc.#Founders

How do you think we can help resolve the dispute?

I think you can provide input on whether the lawsuit settlement makes the founders of Tesla a "disputed" fact that warrants mention in the infobox, or if reliable sources clearly show the verified facts to be that Eberhard and Tarpenning were the sole co-founders of the company.

Summary of dispute by QRep2020

Please keep it brief - less than 2000 characters if possible, it helps us help you quicker.

There are two participants who reject the current Founder configuration in the Infobox, two who affirm it, and two who argue that the field should not be used in the specific article at all; two of these participants came to the discussion via a request for outside comment. Clearly there is a disagreement that needs resolution.

My case for rejection is that the Infobox is not an appropriate place for including contingent labels that were "agreed upon" after the fact. The Founders field should consist of only relevant verified historical (abbreviated) statements as that is how any particular standard field of any type of Infobox consistently presents in Wikipedia articles across all categories. If there was a standard field in Infobox (company) template designated Retroactive Founders then that is where Musk, Straubel, etc. would be listed, but there is not. Placing the three retroactive founders' names in the Founders field with a footnote attached to them does not grant some sort of exception especially since the article itself already explains how Eberhard and Tarpenning created the company, coined its name, etc. as well as what happened in the subsequent lawsuit and agreement.

Edit: Italicized text supplants earlier text. QRep2020 (talk) 03:24, 25 August 2020 (UTC)

Summary of dispute by Stepho-wrs

The editors who think that it should only be 2 founders have equated founding with those who signed the incorporation papers. But there is no legal definition of founder and even WP says at Startup_company#Founders/entrepreneurs that "The right to call oneself a co-founder can be established through an agreement with one's fellow co-founders or with permission of the board of directors, investors, or shareholders of a startup company." Article currently lists 5 founders, with a footnote on the 3 disputed names with details and reference - ie very compact but lets the interested reader know.  Stepho  talk  11:21, 24 August 2020 (UTC)

Summary of dispute by MartinezMD

I don't see a problem keeping the list of founders as all 5 of the men in question. The three founders in question have proper footnotes explaining that they came later but that a negotiation led to the 5 being listed as such. Who are we trying to please here by saying otherwise? MartinezMD (talk) 00:02, 24 August 2020 (UTC)

Summary of dispute by A7V2

The discussion seemed to go a lot into a specific definition of what a founder is, but I feel this is not relevant and instead Wikipedia should reflect what reliable sources say, which as per my own comments I feel are just the two founders. That said, I agree with IPBilly's point that the infobox should only provide a summary, and contain as little information as necessary. So I feel that under the circumstances of it being disputed, the infobox category should either be left blank or have something like "disputed" so that it can be discussed in the article. Given that only one user (not including myself just now) has responded to this idea (which hadn't been raised by anyone else), I'm not sure what the point of this discussion here is? The discussion on the talk page is only a week old and IPBilly's comment just two days old. A7V2 (talk) 09:55, 24 August 2020 (UTC)

Summary of dispute by IPBilly

Please keep it brief - less than 2000 characters if possible, it helps us help you quicker.

The disagreement appears to be centered around the criteria for inclusion in the Infobox:founders category; the individuals responsible for originally incorporating the organization or persons whom carry the title "founder". Side A would like to change the infobox to list only the two "original" founders; including the 3 others would be rewriting history because they gained the title only after a court settlement. Side B would like to list all 5 founders because those 5 individuals all have the title "founder". Both sides have produced verifiable sources that support their position. I proposed splitting the baby and removing the category from the infobox entirely because either listing of 2 or 5 founders does not "summarize (and not supplant) key facts that appear in the article", per MOS:INFOBOXPURPOSE. Given that there seems to be no disagreement 3/5 founders were added post-hoc, the key fact is that the "true" founders are disputed/honorary. IPBilly (talk) 13:45, 24 August 2020 (UTC)

Tesla, Inc. discussion

Please keep discussion to a minimum before being opened by a volunteer. Continue on article talk page if necessary.

Any reason we can't have the first two and then add the other three as added in the 2009 lawsuit in parentheses? Guy (help! - typo?) 08:18, 24 August 2020 (UTC)

I am not sure how that helps solve whether the (or any) disputed "fact" warrants mention in the Infobox. QRep2020 (talk) 15:56, 25 August 2020 (UTC)

The issue of this discussion is primarily caused by different ideas of what a founder is. Some have taken it to mean the people who signed the incorporation papers - and only those people. This does work for the majority of cases. However, the term is only a vague term that just means someone heavily involved during the early periods of the company. Wikipedia's own definition allows for founders to be whoever they agree it to be. It is perfectly acceptable to put all 5 founders in the infobox, as long as there is some (hopefully short) marker to point the reader to a fuller explanation of the controversy.  Stepho  talk  22:34, 25 August 2020 (UTC)

Richard Stallman

– General close. See comments for reasoning.

Filed by Daveout on 01:25, 24 August 2020 (UTC).

Closed discussion

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the dispute resolution noticeboard's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion. Have you discussed this on a talk page? Yes, I have discussed this issue on a talk page already. Location of dispute Richard Stallman (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs) Users involved Daveout (talk · contribs) Lazer-kitty (talk · contribs) Dispute overview We have been disputing which version of a section is better in order to be included in an article. By “better”, I mean more "encyclopedic" or "neutral" or "clearer", etc. This began as a NPOV-related dispute, but since both versions have undergone major changes, the dispute is now less about bias, and more about tenuous wording\style preferences. (both versions are ok in my opinion, but one is a little nicer to read). For context: the section deals with controversial statements made by a computer scientist. Let's call them Version "A" and Version "B". Version A can be found HERE. Version B can be found HERE. To make things easier, I'll put both of them, side-by-side in the collapsable table below: Versions A and B A - Resignation from MIT and FSF In September 2019, Stallman resigned from both MIT and the Free Software Foundation following his posts on an internal MIT CSAIL listserv mailing list about Jeffrey Epstein's relationship with deceased MIT professor Marvin Minsky. In response to a post citing an article about Virginia Giuffre's deposition that Epstein had directed her, as a minor, to have sex with Minsky, Stallman criticized the choice of the word "assaulting", which implies the use of force, to describe Minsky's behavior. In the emails, which were published to the public via Medium, Stallman also wrote: Giuffre was being coerced into sex -- by Epstein. She was being harmed. But the details do affect whether, and to what extent, Minsky was responsible for that. […] We can imagine many scenarios, but the most plausible scenario is that she presented herself to him as entirely willing. Assuming she was being coerced by Epstein, he would have had every reason to tell her to conceal that from most of his associates. Further down the thread, responding to an argument that the location and time assumed based on the article would make it statutory rape, Stallman added: "It is morally absurd to define 'rape' in a way that depends on minor details such as which country it was in or whether the victim was 18 years old or 17". Stallman's words were perceived by some as an attempt to downplay sexual exploitation and minimize Minsky's alleged involvement. Reports also claimed that Stallman defended Epstein, which he denied: "Headlines say that I defended Epstein. [...] Nothing could be further from the truth. I've called him a 'serial rapist,' and said he deserved to be imprisoned". Criticisms intensified when Stallman's earlier remarks about pedophilia resurfaced: "I am skeptical of the claim that voluntarily [sic] pedophilia harms children. The arguments that it causes harm seem to be based on cases which aren’t voluntary, which are then stretched by parents who are horrified by the idea that their little baby is maturing". In 2003, when commenting on judge William Pryor's claim, in support of an anti-sodomy law, that a constitutional right to choose one's sexual partner must logically extend to "prostitution, adultery, necrophilia, bestiality, possession of child pornography, and even incest and pedophilia," Stallman wrote that those "should be legal as long as no one is coerced. They are illegal only because of prejudice and narrowmindedness". He has since disavowed this belief. A joint statement signed by 33 GNU project developers classified Stallman's behavior as being alienating and advocated his departure from the project. Nevertheless, Stallman remains the head of the GNU Project. B - Resignation from MIT and FSF In August and September 2019 it was learned that Jeffrey Epstein had made controversial donations to MIT, and in the wake of this, MIT Media Lab Director's Joi Ito resigned. Students and others users started an internal MIT CSAIL listserv mailing list thread to protest the coverup of MIT's connections to Epstein. In the thread, discussion had turned to deceased MIT professor Marvin Minsky, who was named by Virginia Giuffre, a victim in the underage sex trafficking ring run by Epstein, as one of the people that Epstein had directed her to have sex with as a minor. In response to a comment where one reply stated that Minsky "is accused of assaulting one of Epstein's victims", Stallman defended Minsky by claiming that "the most plausible scenario is that she presented herself to him as entirely willing", and asserted that the use of "assault" or "rape" in Minsky's case should not apply when further challenged by other members of the mailing list. Stallman remained critical of Epstein and his role, stating "We know that Giuffre was being coerced into sex – by Epstein. She was being harmed." Stallman's posts were published to the public via Medium, and Vice published a copy of the email chain to that point on September 13, 2019, drawing attention to Stallman's comments. Many people started to look into Stallman's past writings over the following days to find what were considered troubling statements related to underage sex and laws relating to child pornography from 2013 and earlier. Tied to his comments regarding Minsky, this led to several calling for Stallman's resignation. Stallman acknowledged on September 14 that he had since learned his past writings that there were problems with underage sex, stating on his blog "Through personal conversations in recent years, I've learned to understand how sex with a child can harm her psychologically. This changed my mind about the matter: I think adults should not do that." On September 16, Stallman announced his resignation from both MIT and FSF, "due to pressure on MIT and me over a series of misunderstandings and mischaracterizations". In a post on his website, Stallman asserted that his posts to the email lists were not to defend Epstein, stating "Nothing could be further from the truth. I've called him a 'serial rapist,' and said he deserved to be imprisoned. But many people now believe I defended him—and other inaccurate claims—and feel a real hurt because of what they believe I said. I'm sorry for that hurt. I wish I could have prevented the misunderstanding." Stallman remains head of the GNU Project. How have you tried to resolve this dispute before coming here? talk page discussion here Two uninvolved editors defined version A as being "carefully written" and "better readable and comprehensible"; Lazer-kitty claims that version A has "noticeable NPOV issues" but refuses to provide proof, when I asked them to explain those NPOV issues, they replied: "I actually do not respond well to people making demands of me" How do you think we can help resolve the dispute? Right now we need to select the overall more appropriate version to serve as the base text (or starting point) for future developments. (It has been suggested, by an uninvolved editor, that we should somehow mix aspects of both versions, merging their qualities. We probably are going to work on that after the base text is defined) Summary of dispute by Lazer-kitty I will not be participating in this discussion beyond writing this comment. The ANI that Daveout references fizzled out because he seemed to agree to take a break from editing the article and discussing it with me. If he sticks to that then there is no dispute between us and nothing to be resolved. When he says above that their ANI case against me was completely ignored by admins, due to its utter baselessness and improperness (and pettiness), this is a blatant and obvious lie and unnecessary personal attack against me. It was not ignored by admins, it in fact had the full attention of an admin, who certainly never suggested the ANI request was baseless, improper, or petty; in fact, the exact opposite is closer to the truth. Daveout has a habit of repeatedly misconstruing and/or lying about the circumstances of our discussions in order to attack me; for example, he's very fond of taking my I actually do not respond well to people making demands of me statement out of context to make it appear like I refused to answer a simple request. Furthermore, when Daveout notified me of this new DRN on my talk page, he did so while saying remember to keep it civil and avoid re-dragging unrelated past events (or i'll be encouraged to do the same). Anyone who reads the ANI will note that the only person "re-dragging unrelated past events" was Daveout, so it's unclear to me why he's threatening retribution for something I never did. So, again, I will not be participating in this discussion and instead will explore Arbitration Enforcement per @Robert McClenon's suggestion (although, to be clear, I never had any interest in filing further ANIs or "forum shopping" as you put it until Daveout decided to continue his behavior). For what it's worth, believe me, I am fully aware that the above information is largely outside the scope of a DRN discussion, I just felt like I owed Robert and @Clone commando sev a full explanation. Sorry for wasting your time and thanks for offering your help. Lazer-kitty (talk) 12:43, 25 August 2020 (UTC) Richard Stallman discussion Please keep discussion to a minimum before being opened by a volunteer. Continue on article talk page if necessary. Volunteer Note - It appears that User:Lazer-kitty a few days ago reported User:Daveout at WP:ANI a few days ago, and that dispute was archived without resolution. Are these editors forum shopping? Maybe Arbitration Enforcement is another station on this railroad. It usually takes more prisoners than WP:ANI. Robert McClenon (talk) 05:50, 24 August 2020 (UTC) @Robert McClenon: I wanted to keep it brief and avoid reviving all that drama. But since you’re interested, the story is this: Lazer-kitty and I were in a dispute. We weren’t able to reach consensus (bc not many ppl were interest in the subject). El_C asked me to come here (DRN) to resolve that dispute, but I didn’t do that and continued edit warring along with lazer kitty (because I had misunderstood his instructions). So El_c blocked me from editing that page for a month. Now I’m following their advice, which was also supported by LK. But Lazer-kitty wanted my one-month partial block to be extended, but they didn’t present any new misconduct on my part to justify that, so their ANI case against me was completely ignored by admins, due to its utter baselessness and improperness (and pettiness). I’m not forbidden to engage in discussions, so there is no sanction being violated here. Furthermore, our behaviors are being supervised by 2 admins, if there were anything wrong, they would have intervened already. — Daveout (talk) 07:09, 24 August 2020 (UTC) Volunteer Note At the ANI- user Daveout said he would not be editing this page any further and admins strongly encouraged him to take a break.... Nightenbelle (talk) 19:55, 24 August 2020 (UTC) I'm sorry, I didn't know that discussing an article was the same thing as editing it. In fact, both El_C and LK encouraged me to take this step before. NO ADMIN encouraged me to "take a break". I decided that myself. But the discussion continues and other editors criticized the current version of the article. As far as I'm aware I'm not doing anything wrong. If I am, please correct me. — Daveout (talk) 21:01, 24 August 2020 (UTC) I read the ANI... several admins suggested you taking a break was a good idea after you said you were going to- they said it was a good idea. And Generally the word editing on WP means working on it... discussing it is working on it.. .so instead of getting snippy- WP:AGF. Nightenbelle (talk) 13:57, 25 August 2020 (UTC) Nightenbelle several admins? -Could you name just one of those? I read the ANI -Actually, it looks like you misread the ANI. Get to known the diff between admins and common editors before commenting on a situation. — Daveout (talk) 15:07, 25 August 2020 (UTC) hmmm. thought i closed this discussion....Clone commando sev (talk) 23:32, 24 August 2020 (UTC) Clone commando, The previous dispute was closed bc LK decided to open an ANI case against me instead of discussing it in here - LK asked admins to topic-ban me (that failed). It would be nice to have you as a moderator in this dispute. — Daveout (talk) 23:49, 24 August 2020 (UTC) sure i can moderate again. Clone commando sev (talk) 01:16, 25 August 2020 (UTC) Great. Right, it's really not that complicated. For me, it's simply a question of style. but Lazer-kitty claims that version A has "significant NPOV issues" too, so here is my proposal to lazzer-kitty: correct the perceived npov issues in version A (as you see fit) and let's implement that version in the article?..... I think it's a fair compromise for us to make — Daveout (talk) 02:09, 25 August 2020 (UTC) The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the dispute resolution noticeboard's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Armorial of Europe

– New discussion.

Filed by Fenn-O-maniC on 03:49, 25 August 2020 (UTC).

Have you discussed this on a talk page?

Yes, I have discussed this issue on a talk page already.

Location of dispute

• Armorial of Europe (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)

Users involved

• Fenn-O-maniC (talk · contribs)
• Ping 693 (talk · contribs)
• Ssolbergj (talk · contribs)
• Xwejnusgozo (talk · contribs)

Dispute overview

As discussed on the talk page for the article, an issue has been raised with the quality and neutrality of the article which included rather biased opinions about heraldic practices as well as imaginary versions of some of the national coats of arms used in the article.

How have you tried to resolve this dispute before coming here?

Talk:Armorial_of_Europe#Quality_of_this_article

How do you think we can help resolve the dispute?

More opinions on the article's content might hopefully resolve the issue.

Summary of dispute by Ping 693

I first asked Ssolbergj not to change the article, nicely at first and then not so nicely. He claimed to me that it's okay to edit since it falls under the "Bold Edit" rules. However, he overhauled this without any prior discussion or approval, and as shown on that article's talk page, it was felt that the extra shields were redundant. My patience was especially thin to begin with as he has a long history of doing this; he overhauled the page on heraldry, again without any prior discussion or approval, and his version was quite frankly less informative. In my view, he's proven to be a frequent problem user who needs to be reigned in. Ping 693 (talk) 17:46, 25 August 2020 (UTC)

Summary of dispute by Ssolbergj

Please keep it brief - less than 2000 characters if possible, it helps us help you quicker.

Summary of dispute by Xwejnusgozo

The dispute arose since the article included depictions of versions of coats of arms which are not in regular use, plus the fact that the article did not (and still doesn't) contain a single source. My involvement in this dispute was limited to a comment on the talk page in which I agreed with previous comments made by other editors, and the addition of "unsourced" and "neutrality" tags to the article. --Xwejnusgozo (talk) 09:48, 25 August 2020 (UTC)

Armorial of Europe discussion

Please keep discussion to a minimum before being opened by a volunteer. Continue on article talk page if necessary.

• Volunteer Comment I am willing to moderate this discussion but before I open it officially does Ssolbergj agree to participate? And also, is there a reason why A.D.Hope (talk · contribs) was not included when they participated in the discussion? Nightenbelle (talk) 14:40, 25 August 2020 (UTC)

I must have missed their comment on the talk page, my bad. --Fenn-O-maniC (talk) 16:18, 25 August 2020 (UTC)

No Worries- go ahead adn add them now- as soon as Ssolbergj (talk · contribs) agrees to participate we'll get started.Nightenbelle (talk) 21:37, 25 August 2020 (UTC)

Petfinder

– General close. See comments for reasoning.

Filed by TruthInAdverts on 04:12, 25 August 2020 (UTC).

Closed discussion

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the dispute resolution noticeboard's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion. Have you discussed this on a talk page? Yes, I have discussed this issue on a talk page already. Location of dispute Petfinder (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs) Users involved TruthInAdverts (talk · contribs) Calton (talk · contribs) Drmies (talk · contribs) Dispute overview I have tried multiple times to add objective, verifiable facts to this page and every time I do, the same person comes and removes it and provides inaccurate reasons, while being incredibly rude and unprofessional. Nevertheless, every time he does so, I go back and try to revise my post to satisfy him but no matter what I do, the post keeps getting removed. Instead of acknowledging and leaving the facts on the page, the person is now splitting hairs and picking out single words that he doesn't like, instead of leaving the facts where they are on the page. I've asked several times how to add evidence if he is so upset by the citations I've made, but I get no response. I have also cited verifiable sources and these keep getting rejected too. The explanations make no sense whatsoever and seem to be simply having fun harassing and bullying me. Please make that stop. How have you tried to resolve this dispute before coming here? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:TruthInAdverts#August_2020 How do you think we can help resolve the dispute? Assign an editor who isn't doing this just for fun and to push the public around. I'd like to be treated with respect and get HELP to make a post proper if you feel it isn't, but I seek DIALOGUE, not bullying, as well as a FAIR resolution. Calton has made it very clear that no matter why I type, he will come up with a reason to delete it. Please provide dispute handlers not associated with him as I can envision him getting his friends to help bully me. Summary of dispute by Calton Please keep it brief - less than 2000 characters if possible, it helps us help you quicker. Petfinder discussion Despite what TIA says, there has been no discussion on the talk page of this article for about three years. TIA repeatedly inserts blocks of text sourced to the subject's own website, telling the subject's version of steps they have taken. User:Calton is only one of a number of editors who have had to revert these insertions by TIA. --Orange Mike | Talk 04:20, 25 August 2020 (UTC) And the user has simultaneously taken this to WP:ANI at Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents#Unprofessionalism and bullying by "Calton" and refusal to help me instead of bully me Meters (talk) 04:30, 25 August 2020 (UTC) If I were to hazard a guess, I'd say that they're trying to use Wikipedia to win in the court of public opinion in much the same manner as happened back in 2005 with the Bogdanov physics controversy. This in and of itself should justify a WP:NOTHERE block. —A little blue Bori v^_^v Hasteur Hasteur Ha-- oh.... 04:49, 25 August 2020 (UTC) The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the dispute resolution noticeboard's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Eugene Scalia

– General close. See comments for reasoning.

Filed by 2600:8800:6082:A200:A8FD:AC3B:6463:FFED on 06:57, 25 August 2020 (UTC).

Closed discussion

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the dispute resolution noticeboard's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion. Yes, I have discussed this issue on a talk page already. Location of dispute Eugene Scalia (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs) Users involved Evrik (talk · contribs) Dispute overview I filed a previous dispute regarding removing a sentence on the 'Eugene Scalia' that violated the Wikipedia's Neutral Point of View policy. An independent moderator named 'Deb' reviewed the article and agreed that the sentence as written needed to be removed. She did so. Afterwards, the user named Evrik, put the sentence back. I have provided a very lengthy explanation in the Talk section why the sentence violated Wikipedia policy. I just removed the sentence again. I request that you enforce your own Wikipedia policy and your own ruling on the sentence. If there are ways to prevent Evrik from adding back the offending sentence, I request you do so. Otherwise, can you inform him in the talk section that adding the sentence back is not acceptable and I intend to file a dispute against a user if he does it again. I would prefer not to do that, but bullying against Wikipedia policy should not be allowed. I am grateful for your time. How have you tried to resolve this dispute before coming here? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Eugene_Scalia 'Deb' already ruled the sentence as written violated the Wikipedia policy and should be removed. How do you think we can help resolve the dispute? Please clarify to Evrik that he may not re-add the sentence that was removed. If there are ways in the code to block him form being able to do so again, I request that you do that. If there are further consequences that are possible, I request that they be considered or at least that he is warned in the talk section of any consequences. Summary of dispute by Evrik Please keep it brief - less than 2000 characters if possible, it helps us help you quicker. Eugene Scalia discussion Please keep discussion to a minimum before being opened by a volunteer. Continue on article talk page if necessary. The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the dispute resolution noticeboard's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

List of My Hero Academia characters

Filed by Unnamed anon on 21:04, 25 August 2020 (UTC).

Have you discussed this on a talk page?

Yes, I have discussed this issue on a talk page already.

Location of dispute

• List of My Hero Academia characters (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)

Users involved

• Unnamed anon (talk · contribs)
• Serial Number 54129 (talk · contribs)

Dispute overview

Basic descriptions of each character have been persistently removed by Serial Number 54129 for “being WP:SYNTH and WP:OR”, despite all of the content being directly stated by the material itself, attempts to remove what little original research actually existed have been ignored, and the content being allowed per MOS:PLOT. Additionally, several characters and some sourced plot details have also been removed without explanation, and no attempt has been made to explain the removal of the sources and character. Despite being pinged several times on the talk page, only their edit summaries show any semblance of wanting to discuss since January 2020. Additionally, while I don’t know if this is the right place to mention, Serial Number 54129 has also not assumed good faith, as shown by their latest edit summary. I should also note that at one point, SN filed an ANI report on themselves after I (from before making an account) asked about what to do on the Teahouse, and the consensus on the report was that discussion should be taken to the talk page. However, they have still refused to explain why they believe the content does not belong on the talk page other than falsely and persistently labeling it as original research. Unnamed anon (talk) 19:22, 25 August 2020 (UTC)

How have you tried to resolve this dispute before coming here?

Talk:List of My Hero Academia characters#Sourcing for plot.

Administrators DESiegel and GorillaWarfare have both participated in the discussion, and have both been of massive help, but even despite the discussion that the material itself is considered a source, and that the material is not original research, Serial Number 54129 still went for the mass removal route, without contributing to the discussion afterwards beyond an edit summary that again falsely claimed the info as original research and included an aspersion. I would also like to add that this edit war has been going on since January, and from comments from Tutelary and Lullabying, they believe that complete removal of short descriptions of each character is not necessary. Despite this, Serial Number 54129 has still persistently went for the route of mass removal without discussing why when said removals are contested, instead waiting for about a month to remove the content again, seemingly to avoid breaking the 3-revert rule. Unnamed anon (talk) 00:26, 26 August 2020 (UTC)

How do you think we can help resolve the dispute?

Explain to Serial Number 54129 what actually qualifies as original research, including the fact that original research does not include info directly stated by the material itself. Tell them that their edits go against MOS:PLOT, and give them a warning about not being able to follow BRD and refusing to explain possible mistakes in their reversions. Lastly, tell them that they must assume good faith, rather than casting aspersions. Unnamed anon (talk) 19:22, 25 August 2020 (UTC)

Summary of dispute by Serial Number 54129

The essay WP:BRD does not outweigh the requirements of our most core content policies, WP:V.

Despite what UA claims, they miscite GorillaWarfare, who actually told them Although you are claiming that User:Serial Number 54129 has refused to discuss, the article talk page history tells a different story.

I note they do not cite Drmies at all, who has already told them that the material they wished to include was is fancruft, unbefitting of an encyclopedia.

The removal of material (the removal of content was a justifiable edit) was supported by another admin, Xbeth, whom QA had previously canvassed for support ([6]).

As [[U|Ad Orientam}} notes, it is not the case here that anyone is blanking large sections of well sourced material from a long stable article/list, apparently for the sole reason that it did not interest him.

There is, ultimately, a litany of experienced editors telling this editor the same thing: that extractions of plot details presented in Wikipedia's voice is synthesis of sources, and that, per WP:V, all material in Wikipedia mainspace, including everything in articles, lists and captions, must be verifiable: this is the bottom line, immutable, inescapable and non-negotiable.

UA, if you ping me again you will find yourself at another noticeboard for harassment (five pings plus two message alerts in less than 12 hours is wholly inappropriate).

I pity the volunteer who (tries to) deal with this case: as you have now got a flavor of UA's debating style, vis-à-vis walls of text, misrepresenting of others' positions and generally sloppy understanding of policy. Cheers, ——Serial 02:45, 26 August 2020 (UTC)

Please keep it brief - less than 2000 characters if possible, it helps us help you quicker.

List of My Hero Academia characters discussion

Please keep discussion to a minimum before being opened by a volunteer. Continue on article talk page if necessary.