Talk:Women's rights in Iran

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Untitled

Hello Sangak I think you should also mention in this article about the difference of modern Persian women's movement, and the ancient one. because the actual Persian women's movement started from the time of Cyrus the Great.

Also I will translatete your article to Persian so we can put it in Persian Wiki as well.

--Kaaveh 11:35, 11 August 2006 (UTC)

Thanks for your comments. I surely agree with you. I suggest this article to be focused on 19th and 20th century with a short reference to ancient and pre modern movement while Iranian women page is mainly devoted to the ancient Iran and a short reference to the modern one.

Indeed this was my original idea. I think It is very important to keep Iranian women page in a safe position and keeping it away from attacks. Modern movement is very controversial and may produce huge controversies. As such I decided to initial the article. This is inline with the article: Intellectual movements in Iran.

Thanks for translation. I will also try to collect more info. dastetoon dard nakoneh! --Sangak11:54, 11 August 2006 (UTC)

Hi again; I am totally agree with you on this. I will also mark this article on my watchlist to prevent any possible vandalism. Sangak jan are u also going to write about "Kashf-e Hijab" by Reza Shah (the great) which was a landmark in the Persian women's movement in this article? If so, I can find pictures of some "Shir-zans" from the Reza Shah era. --Kaaveh 12:30, 11 August 2006 (UTC)

If you can add some info, that would be great. I am planning to concentrate on literary criticism, music, modern art and possibly some medical issues (contraception, family planning etc). I am looking for those women who took ground breaking steps but their names have been forgotten in the history.

Also "influence of Iranian movement on non Iranians in the region (middle east and central asia)" is some thing I am keen on figuring out. --Sangak12:58, 11 August 2006 (UTC)

Reading this article, I was struck by the wide-spread use of the word "girl" to refer to adult persons, e.g., in the case of a Princeton mathematician. To me the term smacks of sexism, and seems out of place for a page on a women's movement.

Feel free to edit them out--Honeymane_{Heghlu meH QaQ jajvam} 07:19, 22 December 2006 (UTC)

numerous appearance of "girl" is due to word by word translation from persian. girl can refers to women of teenage (and younger ofcourse) and also to women of all ages as in "girls of Iran" a common phrase in persian. Feel free to replace "girl" with "woman" if it sounds unusual for English language speakers.Sangak 16:49, 27 December 2006 (UTC)

comment from an outsider

Shouldn't this article mention human rights issues in Iran? mirageinred 22:56, 2 March 2007 (UTC)

No! Human rights issues are discussed here and here. This article covers what Iranian women did themselves not what others (Iranian men and Iranian government) did to women. Sangak ^Talk 19:21, 3 March 2007 (UTC)

What if Iranian women fought back the injustices? Isn't that worthy of mention? mirageinred 20:16, 3 March 2007 (UTC)

Of course it will be included! For instance One Million Signatures, Tahmineh Milani's feminist cinema and Shahla Sherkat's magazine, Qamar ol-Molouk Vaziri's musical performance in public (among others) have been included in the article. Please read the section on Women's movement in late 20th century. Sangak ^Talk 21:23, 3 March 2007 (UTC)

The title of the article lead me to think that this is a human rights/women's rights article. I was about to ask if someone would add some content about women campaigning for greater political or occupational freedoms. Maybe this article should be retitled? Persian women's intellectual movements, perhaps?RedPen 03:14, 6 July 2007 (UTC)

Subheadings

The current TOC reads:

1. Women in The Persian Constitutional Revolution
2. Women in The Iranian Revolution
3. Iranian women and contemporary Persian literature
4. Iranian women and Persian music
5. Iranian women and education
6. Iranian women and modern art
7. Iranian women and Sports
8. Women's health in modern Iran
9. Women's movement in the late 20th and early 21st centuries
10. Women's studies in Iranian Universities
11. Women's movements in the Iranian cultural continent

Shouldn't that just be the following?

1. The Persian Constitutional Revolution
2. The Iranian Revolution
3. Contemporary Persian literature
4. Persian music
5. Education
6. Modern art
7. Sports
8. Women's health in modern Iran
9. Women's movement in the late 20th and early 21st centuries
10. Women's studies in Iranian Universities
11. Women's movements in the Iranian cultural continent

-- Sundar ^{\talk \contribs} 07:27, 22 August 2007 (UTC)

typo

Massive typo:"Such education and social trends are increasingly viewed with alarm by the Iranian secularists and opposition groups" - this should read 'Iranian authorities' not secularists and opposition (check reference 33)

grezoc 82.35.102.252 (talk) 17:29, 8 March 2009 (UTC)

Possible POV

I saw this on the cleanup taskforce list and set out to clean up the spacing on the images. In the process, I decided to fill out the Literature section a bit. However, I added info about one of the books being banned, and upon reflection, I wonder if it's not just a bit out of place in this article. So, if anyone objects to it, feel free to remove the mention.Phyesalis (talk) 09:14, 18 November 2007 (UTC)

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BetacommandBot 19:11, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

What about the Pahlavi Dynasty?

WHY does this article mention NOTHING about the extensive rights that Iranian women enjoyed under Mohammed Reza Pahlavi? He wasn't perfect or wholly democratic, but he gave many rights to women. The right to vote, the option to not wear headcoverings, equality with men; come on, you have to mention that!

--Simfan34 (talk) 01:30, 7 March 2008 (UTC)

r —Preceding unsigned comment added by Simfan34 (talk • contribs) 01:31, 7 March 2008 (UTC)

The article is about what women achieved themselves and not what was granted to them (or taken from them) by various regimes. Having said that, It is a good idea to have a section on that period. Sangak ^Talk 19:14, 2 April 2008 (UTC)

Fair use rationale for Image:Mehre madari.jpg

Image:Mehre madari.jpg is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in this Wikipedia article constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.

Please go to the image description page and edit it to include a fair use rationale. Using one of the templates at Wikipedia:Fair use rationale guideline is an easy way to ensure that your image is in compliance with Wikipedia policy, but remember that you must complete the template. Do not simply insert a blank template on an image page.

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BetacommandBot (talk) 15:34, 8 March 2008 (UTC)

This article was appalling and completely redone

I am deeply disappointed in the editors of this article given the state I found it. Given that there is no Women's rights in Iran article, this article must fill that void. The reasoning given on this talk page to keep it circumcised in scope, while completely neglecting the history of the country, and even factually mischaracterizing it, made it completely useless for anyone doing research. An article about Iranian women already exists, it's called Iranian women. Put achievements by women there, which is more appropriate. Or start an Achievements of Iranian women article.

Khomeini was essentially hailed as helping women, while many important gains under the shah were never discussed. In fact, women protested the Khomeini government at the outset. The comments on this talk page by casual readers evidence that people were coming here to find out about the totality of the women's rights movement in Iran; and looking for a well-sourced article that does so. If it is returned to its prior state, I will open this up for a RfC because I was very troubled by what I saw. Statements like "The movement lasted until 1933 in which the last women’s association was dissolved by the Reza Shah’s government. It heightened again after the Iranian Revolution (1979)." are completely false. No women were involved at all in the gains they made during the shah? Not even his family members? Additionally, statements like "Dramatic changes in the labor force might not have been possible if Khomeini had not broken the barriers to women entering into the public sphere unchaperoned." are not only OR, but they are false. Women didn't need chaperones; permission, perhaps, but not chaperones. There were almost no sources supporting such ridiculous pro-Khomeini statements (and such statements also hurt the contention that this article was about women's achievements made by women, since it is giving Khomeini credit for apparently liberating women from their homes...?). --David Shankbone 01:59, 22 September 2008 (UTC)

I respectfully disagree with you. For example the following statement: "Dramatic changes in the labor force might not have been possible if Khomeini had not broken the barriers to women entering into the public sphere unchaperoned." is neither OR nor false. Please read this article at Washington Institute's webpage!! We as editors need to be unbiased. Both Khomeini and Shah did positive and negative things. Sinooher (talk) 11:23, 29 January 2009 (UTC)

Is http://www.watsoninstitute.org/bjwa/archive/9.2/Iran/Bahramitash.pdf a reliable source? It seems a pro-revolutionary polemic. --BoogaLouie (talk) 18:43, 29 January 2009 (UTC)

Being reliable or unreliable has nothing to do with being pro-revolutionary or anti-revolutionary!! The author of the article is an academic in a well knwon canadian University: link Sinooher (talk) 15:06, 1 February 2009 (UTC)

I am the one who re-wrote this article, and I was very pleased to hear just yesterday the highly regarded program All Things Considered do an in-depth look at the history of the women's rights movement in Iran, and it comported very, very closely with what I wrote: Despite Odds, Women's Movement Persists In Iran. Regarding the piece above, this is a Post-doctoral thesis, and its claims need to be sourced by multiple, scholarly-reviewed publications. Additionally, the claims in the paper basically make the point that enjoyment of rights was a socio-economic issue, not a gender issue, and if we are to include the claims made by Bahramitash in her thesis, that context needs to be made clear. --David Shankbone 19:44, 2 February 2009 (UTC)The “Women’s right in Iran” article is looking at pressing of issues such as marriage laws, divorce, sports, education, etc. The article mentioned above is C grade. Some of the provided sources are not from the legitimate article, so it is my goal to clean the material by removing some of that wrong information and bring a more diverse perspective using sources form more recent peer-reviewed articles and books.

References

Stoning to be moved to "Human rights in the Islamic Republic of Iran" ?

The section on stoning is not addressing a gender issue as the stoning law is not biased toward men or women. The number of men subject to stoning has been always higher than women. Ofcourse women right activists also campaigned against stoning but as a human right issue and not a women right issue. I suggest the section be moved to "Human rights in the Islamic Republic of Iran" article. Any idea? Sinooher (talk) 09:00, 24 May 2009 (UTC)

You're right, this is not a gender-specific issue. In fact, more men have been subjected to stoning than women. I moved the section some time ago, but it was restored by an editor who is stalking me. AlexanderPar (talk) 09:37, 7 August 2010 (UTC)

Amnesty international said stoning disproportionately affects women. AzureFury (talk | contribs) 06:30, 19 August 2010 (UTC)

That's a false claim, more men have been stoned than women. I am removing the subsection, this is not a woman's issue, it's a human rights' issue. I'd advise you against reverting, keep in mind that you stalked me to this page, and stalking is against Wikipedia's rules. AlexanderPar (talk) 06:26, 18 September 2010 (UTC)

"The majority of those sentenced to death by stoning have been women. Women do not receive equal treatment with men under Iranian law and before Iranian courts. Also, because illiteracy is higher among women they may be more likely to sign confessions to crimes they did not commit and to receive unfair trials."[2] Do you have any sources to back up your claim that more men are stoned than women? All we need to include something here is a claim that is supported by multiple reliable sources, whether or not it is true. AzureFury (talk | contribs) 07:09, 18 September 2010 (UTC)

I am not going to get into this game with you. Even if what you're claiming was true. (which is not, just look up the names of the known victims) that would still not make stoning, a Women's rights issue, as the Sharia law on stoning applies to both genders. Stoning is a Human rights issue. Every subject has its place, and stoning belongs on Human rights page, not Women's rights page. What matters here is that most sources discussing stoning, classify it as a Human rights issue, and we should follow what the classification of the majority of the sources on the topic is. AlexanderPar (talk) 07:46, 18 September 2010 (UTC)

As usual, you've managed to insert a logical fallacy or intentional error in almost every sentence.

You - "Even if what you're claiming was true. (which is not, just look up the names of the known victims)"

• This is trivial original research, this is your excuse for going against the sources. Aside from being false, this is absolutely unacceptable behavior on Wikipedia.

You - "that would still not make stoning, a Women's rights issue, as the Sharia law on stoning applies to both genders. Stoning is a Human rights issue. Every subject has its place, and stoning belongs on Human rights page, not Women's rights page."

• It is not up to you to make that decision. We follow the sources, and if sources establish that a women's right issue in Iran is stoning, we include it in the article "Women's rights in Iran."

You - "What matters here is that most sources discussing stoning, classify it as a Human rights issue, and we should follow what the classification of the majority of the sources on the topic is."

• This article is a subtopic of the larger umbella of "Human rights in Iran." Women is a smaller group than Human, and thus the set of issues here is a strict subgroup of the issues in Women's rights in Iran. If we were to reject one subject because it's a "Human rights issue" we would have to reject all of them. Logic asside, here are some sources that connect stoning to Women's rights.[3][4][5][6][7][8]

So if we're going to get into another editorial dispute, how about you tell me what exactly you think would be necessary in order for this material to be included on this page, so that I can find it demonstrate to all your complete disregard for sanity. AzureFury (talk | contribs) 04:13, 20 September 2010 (UTC)

I do not consider you a neutral editor worth arguing with. Stoning is a Human rights issue, that's what most sources say. Yous is just a synthesis of sources to push a fringe point of view. If you revert again, I will simply report you stalking me and you will be blocked for that. You had no prior edits or history on this page, before you decided to stalk me in the middle of another dispute on another page. AlexanderPar (talk) 23:14, 22 September 2010 (UTC)

Right, it's a human rights issue that especially impacts women. That makes it both a human rights issue and a women's right issue. We have multiple reliable sources establishing this fact. We have no reliable sources disputing this. The only source disputing that this is a women's rights issue is you. Please stop embarassing yourself. AzureFury (talk | contribs) 05:11, 23 September 2010 (UTC)

May I ask a question as someone who's never edited this article, and who never or rarely edits articles on this topic? This is a subject about which I'm informed solely (but regularly) through Anglophone news media, with all the biases that implies. I think it's fair to say that these media tend to report the stoning or threatened stoning of women more often than those of men; if it's true that a higher proportion of those who are subject to stoning are men, then it would seem that this betrays a bias in Anglophone news media. However (and this is my point), it also means that those who use English Wikipedia will expect to see stoning addressed in the article. It has to be there. We have to answer the questions that readers are likely to bring to the article. Could I suggest that the issue of stoning be presented in that context? That is, I see no reason to exclude it as a concern of women's rights, since it clearly is to Western readers, but with the kind of caveat and proportional explanation AlexanderPar has offered, with perhaps then a "See also" or "Main article" notice at the top of the section. Cynwolfe (talk) 15:07, 23 September 2010 (UTC)

I wouldn't trust Alexander when he says most of those executed by stoning are men. He's contradicting sources when he says that, while providing none of his own. Though I am open to the suggestion of a "main" or "see also" template, with a short summary and explanation of how it relates to women's rights here. AzureFury (talk | contribs) 16:07, 23 September 2010 (UTC)

The assertion that stoning affects more men than women would have to be carefully sourced, and it may be that no single statement would be satisfactory. It may have to be couched as one of those qualifying sentences: "Although most human rights organizations or whatever sources find that (etc, with footnote), some (footnoted) point to evidence that … ." WP:UNDUE should apply. Cynwolfe (talk) 16:50, 23 September 2010 (UTC)

I see this is being approached purely on the level of deletion. I reiterate: English-Wikipedia users will expect to see contemporary stoning addressed in this article. If the issue has been misrepresented in Western media, the section should be rewritten to state the situation accurately. But it must be addressed, not suppressed on the specious reasoning that men are affected too. For instance: men can be raped, but no one would argue that the history of rape law doesn't belong in an article on women's rights. Cynwolfe (talk) 23:11, 23 September 2010 (UTC)

Lol @ Alexander's edit summary, "Yes, but not all human rights issues are women's rights issues, and stoning is not cosnidred a women's rights issue by most sources."

A - I have never alleged that all human rights issues are women's rights issues.

B - You can't prove that "stoning is NOT considered a women's rights issue by most sources." This is a negative statement. You can't prove a negative.

C - As I have said repeatedly, stoning is both a human rights issue and a women's rights issue, and this is established by multiple reliable sources. We don't need most sources to consider it a women's rights issue. We simply need multiple sources to establish that it is a women's rights issue. We consider weight with respect to the article's topic, not with respect to the topic you and I are disputing: stoning. You say "stoning is a human rights issue", but certainly some sources consider it a women's rights issue. So with respect to women's rights, certainly stoning deserves some weight.

I'm wasting my breath of course. You've shown a willingness to outright lie about policy, so of course you'll remain willfully ignorant of the subtlties of WP:WEIGHT. A NPOV tag will have to suffice. I think readers who browse Wikipedia have gotten used to seeing that tag, with the understanding that lunatics are attracted to controversial articles like this one, determined to push their POV. AzureFury (talk | contribs) 04:31, 24 September 2010 (UTC)

AlexanderPar posted to my talk page asking about my interest in the article; that discussion is here, but I'd like to repeat some of my last response on this page, where it's more appropriate. There was a highly publicized case in the news earlier this month concerning a woman in Iran who had been sentenced to stoning. The New York Times reported on the case in a series of stories: here's one, then here's the report on the lifting of the sentence; more to the point about En-WP readers' expectations, here's a page of comments from NYT readers who were responding to a blog post that compared that case to the recent execution of a woman in the U.S. It's a legitimate question to ask: if the execution of a woman by the U.S. is treated in the context of capital punishment, not women's rights, why should the stoning sentence of the Iranian woman, now lifted, be treated as such? But the question is a real question, as you can see from the range of responses at the NYT, and should be addressed — certainly it shouldn't be a forbidden topic. Readers will expect to be given a context for understanding these and other reports in an article on Women's rights in Iran. If you believe these reports are exaggerated, or false, or that stoning as a penalty is misunderstood, the article needs to explain that with sources; it should not suppress mention of stoning. A WP article should answer the questions that readers will bring to it. If the answer is "stoning is not specifically an issue of women's rights," then fine; give a short paragraph and link to a fuller explanation of the use of stoning as sentence in Iran elsewhere on WP. But the existence of activist groups that expressly address stoning as it affects women is prima facie evidence that it's perceived as a women's rights issue by a significant group of people. Cynwolfe (talk) 12:13, 24 September 2010 (UTC)

I've put the heading back, but cut it down to a couple of sentences. There's no doubt it is perceived as a women's issue by women's organisations, including womens organisations in Iran, so we should cover this. However, the bulk of the text (the casualties, the saved, the cases etc) should be in the Stoning article - if Alexander Par has ceased his campaign to remove all reference to the practice of stoning in Iran from that article also. Elen of the Roads (talk) 13:39, 24 September 2010 (UTC)

Well well well, I see that AzureFury has canvassed you here too. Some things never change I guess. I never did "campaign to remove all reference to the practice of stoning", so please do not lie and misrepresent my position. The section as it is, should be moved under a new larger section header called "campaigns" that includes both the One Million Signature campaign and Stop stoning Forever campaigns as sub-sections, both of which were by the way initiated and run by the same group of activists. Also, this is an Encyclopedia that should discuss a topic in general academic terms, this is not a campaign site or the Amnesty International`s monthly report to list every individual case involving the word stoning . By Cynwolfe`s own logic comparing stoning to rape, you do not see the names and descriptions of of every rape victim listed on the rape page, this is no different. AlexanderPar (talk) 14:04, 24 September 2010 (UTC)

Two clarifications: First, AzureFury did not ask me to come to this page. Second, I did not compare stoning to rape. I said that both women and men can be subject to stoning and rape, but no one ought to question that a history of rape law is pertinent to a history of women's rights. Therefore, the fact that an issue might affect both genders doesn't necessarily exclude it as a women's rights issue, and certainly not if it is a particular expressed concern of women's rights groups. I agree strongly that stoning needs to be kept in proportion within this article; I think Elen has proposed the right distribution of material. Cynwolfe (talk) 14:37, 24 September 2010 (UTC)

Alexander, just...No. You're not going to minimize stoning's exposure on Wikipedia by removing it from this article. You're not going to hide it by removing the header "Stoning." Your efforts are wasted. The consensus on Wikipedia is that we represent reality, not what you wish reality was. There will always be enough editors to oppose your blatantly biased edits. AzureFury (talk | contribs) 15:15, 24 September 2010 (UTC)

I agree that there is a consensus to include at least a minimal section on stoning. I see only one editor who asserts that all mention of stoning should be excluded from this article, nor do I see the grounds for such an exclusion. This is an edit contrary to consensus. Cynwolfe (talk) 15:19, 24 September 2010 (UTC)

3 edit conflicts later...A certain level of information needs to be in this article. If AlexanderPar wishes to change the layout, perhaps we can discuss that separately, but it must not be a cover for removing information. Elen of the Roads (talk) 15:23, 24 September 2010 (UTC)

Nobody is removing anything, I simply changed the lay-out. And Cynwolfe, open your eyes, I am only one of three editors who have supported exclusion, there is no consensus here. AzureFury and two like-minded editors that he canvassed (you and Elen, two editors who collaborate with each other off and on-Wiki) do not constitute a consensus. But that is besides the point, I kept Elen`s changes, I only moved the section under a more appropriate heading. AlexanderPar (talk) 15:37, 24 September 2010 (UTC)

Sorry, yes, no need to get angry. I erred; I didn't scroll down far enough. Apologies. When I reverted, I also got my fingers on the wrong keys in the edit history, which produced a bit of gibberish and an inadvertent save before I checked everything. Haste does indeed make waste. Cynwolfe (talk) 15:51, 24 September 2010 (UTC)

AlexanderPar, I see what you have done now - agree that grouping the information is not a problem. BTW, while Cynewolfe and I have worked together on a couple of articles, we have no contact at all off-wiki. Elen of the Roads (talk) 15:58, 24 September 2010 (UTC)

I've never communicated with Elen anywhere other than within WP space. AzureFury did not "canvass" me; AzureFury has not communicated with me in any way, other than indirectly on this talk page; it seems otiose to assert something that can be checked so readily. I don't regularly edit articles that directly pertain to this topic, but that means I don't have any vested interests or sense of ownership. I'm familiar with media coverage and regularly read it, which is why, as I indicated above, I couldn't see the basis for exclusion. Cynwolfe (talk) 16:18, 24 September 2010 (UTC)

I think AlexanderPar and Sinooher are right on this. Based on what I have seen, presenting stoning as a women's rights issue, is usually done only by the feminist groups. The law applies to both men and women. However, Ms. Elen makes a good point too, and the current (compromise?) version discussing the stoning issue in a minimal form under campaigns is also acceptable for me. --Wayiran (talk) 16:20, 24 September 2010 (UTC)

Fair enough. But if it's presented as an issue of women's rights by feminist groups, doesn't that by definition make it such from one important perspective? To be kept in balance, certainly. But it would strike me as perverse to exclude mention altogether in an article on women's rights on the grounds that it's seen as a women's rights issue "only" by feminist groups, if you follow me. Cynwolfe (talk) 17:04, 24 September 2010 (UTC)

Wayiran is trying to play this off as feminist whining, while ignoring that most stoning victims are women. AzureFury (talk | contribs) 18:06, 24 September 2010 (UTC)

That is nonsense. There were 7 stoning victims in the last decade [9], 6 were men, only one was a woman. AlexanderPar (talk) 19:41, 24 September 2010 (UTC)

Are we to take your word that that list is complete, or your interpretation is accurate? I can't determine the gender of those names. The earliest case it lists is in 2006. Is that where you're inferring "in the last decade"? Also, it's cute that you've linked to, "the global campaign to stop killing and stoning women" as proof that this is not a women's rights issue. AzureFury (talk | contribs) 19:53, 24 September 2010 (UTC)

Oh so now you can't tell the gender of Mahmoud, Abbas, Jafar and the unknown MAN? Please stop trolling. AlexanderPar (talk) 20:00, 24 September 2010 (UTC)

Mahmoud is not spelled phonetically, took me a second to recall how that was pronounced. Never met/heard of someone named "Abbas." And the only Jafar I know is from Aladdin (1992 Disney film). AzureFury (talk | contribs) 20:43, 24 September 2010 (UTC)

Mahmoud, Jafar, Abbas (Muslim prophets and religious characters) and Hushan or Hushang (a mythical Persian king) are exclusively male first names, you can look them up one by one. --Wayiran (talk) 15:45, 25 September 2010 (UTC)

"Mahmoud, Jafar, Abbas (Muslim prophets and religious characters) and Hushan or Hushang (a mythical Persian king) are exclusively male first names, you can look them up one by one." As someone who is proficient in the Arabic language, I can confirm this. It's like saying "I'm not sure if Sally, Rebecca and Suzie are female names..." And I also feel that the stoning section should be moved to Human rights in the Islamic Republic of Iran. It makes no sense to have it in this article as there is no bias to women here. If, as many have claimed, the media does seem to cover these events more than the stoning of men, I would believe that's only because it is not a common occurrence--not the other way round. ~dee 12:02, 26 September 2010 (UTC)

We have multiple reliable sources alleging that stoning in Iran is indeed biased against women. Per WP:WEIGHT we include it here. AzureFury (talk | contribs) 03:42, 27 September 2010 (UTC)

If there is a reliable source that says "Stoning punishment is disproportionately applied to women" (or similar) that certainly should be included in this article. Likewise, if there are any feminist groups that characterize stoning as a feminist issue, that also should be mentioned. Most detail can be in the Stoning article, but if the sources specifically associate stoning with women, that is material that should be in this article. --Noleander (talk) 14:53, 30 September 2010 (UTC)

Evidence that women's groups characterise this as a womens issue - and that includes women's groups in Iran itself - is available and should be cited (indeed, I believe it already has been cited). I would hesitate to draw a conclusion as to the disproportion of application from a list of the victims (itself very hard to reliably source), as I feel that would be OR, but I believe it can be sourced (indeed I know it can, I've read enough journalists on the subject) that women's groups argue that it is a punishment which affects women more than men, given the nature of the crime for which it is prescribed, and the approach of both society and the law to the respective guilt of the male and female parties in the alleged crime.Elen of the Roads (talk) 15:45, 30 September 2010 (UTC)

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Comments

Love the information and think you are far beyond an initial contribution! Continue your great work and you will have a final contribution in no time. Add a few more sources and use those sources and you should be done! Cohoward (talk) 23:00, 8 April 2018 (UTC)

Your article is great so far! You just need to add some links to other articles and format your sources to be in correct Wikipedia format. Alisonyardley (talk) 17:48, 8 April 2018 (UTC)Alisonyardley

I am editing this article. Please let me know if you made changes! — Preceding unsigned comment added by Aazmak1989 (talk • contribs) 18:59, 17 April 2018 (UTC)

I have been working on this wiki article as a final project. many of the facts provided here lacks citation. I will be adding more to the existing sections and will provide scholarly citation and other sources to help the reader find the facts through other articles. In addition I will also few new sections to help this article be more up do date with this issues in Iran. I am going to add these resources tonight so please do not delete what I will add. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Aazmak1989 (talk • contribs) 22:11, 30 April 2018 (UTC)

A Commons file used on this page has been nominated for speedy deletion

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• Basiji Students meeting with Supreme Leader of Iran, Ali Khamenei - September 4, 1999 (1).jpg

You can see the reason for deletion at the file description page linked above. —Community Tech bot (talk) 05:42, 27 March 2019 (UTC)

A Commons file used on this page has been nominated for deletion

The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page has been nominated for deletion:

• Basiji Students meeting with Supreme Leader of Iran, Ali Khamenei - September 4, 1999 (1).jpg

Participate in the deletion discussion at the nomination page. —Community Tech bot (talk) 07:51, 27 March 2019 (UTC)

Lead

@HistoryofIran: there are some issues in the lead section.

1. First of all, the lead includes statistical INFO, while they can change or other statistical info is seen in the article, why do we have such info in lead? isn't it necessary that lead has to include just most important points?
2. I cannot find the sentence "Women's rights in Iran are limited compared to the women in developed nations" in the article (except lead). It is a claim and needs to support by RS. If there is not any source, I remove it after a while!
3. The sentence "The World Economic Forum’s 2017 Global Gender Gap Report ranked Iran 140 out of 144 countries for gender parity. Women in Iran constitute 19% of the workforce in 2017 with only 7% growth since 1990" is not supported by cited source. So isn't it better to remove the sentence was put into the month of source? Regards!Saff V. (talk) 07:27, 19 May 2019 (UTC)

Are you honestly saying women in Iran have just as much rights compared to other countries? The article makes it quite clear that that is not the case. Did you even download the pdf of the source? It's very easy to say something on a largely detailed source is not there due to the amounts of information it has. Also we have that statistical info because it illustrates the status of women in Iran. Imho this seems like a WP:JUSTDONTLIKEIT case to me. EDIT: Also [10] [11]. It's too easy to find sources that all state the same regarding rights in Iran and whatnot. --HistoryofIran (talk) 11:53, 19 May 2019 (UTC)

I have no claim about Women's rights in Iran, I just pointed that "All material in Wikipedia mainspace, including everything in articles, lists and captions, must be verifiable....must include an inline citation that directly supports the material." (based on WP:VER)so the claim of limitation of Women's rights in Iran needs to confirmed by RS in the lead. I really appreciated u to provide sources, I checked both of them. There is nothing to do exactly with Women's rights in Iran are limited compared to the women in developed nations. In other words, they are OR for this claim.Saff V. (talk) 06:34, 20 May 2019 (UTC)

Uhh.. are you serious? I can't believe you read the sources properly then, please read again, thanks. --HistoryofIran (talk) 09:46, 20 May 2019 (UTC)

Yes I read the whole of Radio Farda report and Women's rights section in hrw. If there are sentences that I haven't seen, Can I ask you to gather them here? Regards!Saff V. (talk) 09:59, 20 May 2019 (UTC)

Eh.. no, being a user in Wikipedia you need to have a certain amount of ability yourself, that is literally stated in the rules (Wikipedia:COMPETENCE). Read again along with the The Global Gender Gap Report 2017. If that's too hard then ask for help from some users (or an admin) who have no relation to Iran-related articles. --HistoryofIran (talk) 10:09, 20 May 2019 (UTC)

I wanted to remove unsourced material but you reverted and claimed that there are sources and provided it. Then I checked sources and couldn't find any material to support that sentence, while you are sure there is! Ok, Please Provide supportive sentences here! Be aware that If you refuse, I can remove the sentence without the source!Saff V. (talk) 10:18, 20 May 2019 (UTC)

You could, that would just be considered disruptive editing. Read Wikipedia:COMPETENCE and ask an admin for help to read stuff for you. Surely that shouldn't be an issue, you have a non-related party to help you. --HistoryofIran (talk) 10:38, 20 May 2019 (UTC)

According to WP:BURDEN,The burden to demonstrate verifiability lies with the editor who adds or restores material. I'll put the citation need tag at the moment and delete the item if the resource is not added in the next few days.Saff V. (talk) 06:21, 22 May 2019 (UTC)

You're not collaborating, not to mention you have been reported for pov-pushing in Iranian-related in the past (and being warned for it as well if I recall correctly). And now you suddenly can't find the certain statements in several sources that are clear as daylight? What citation(s) do you want me to add? Over half of the information on the sources? The whole article pretty much highlights the lack of women rights in Iran, yet you're still putting a citation need tag? This looks like a Wikipedia:JUSTDONTLIKEIT case to me. --HistoryofIran (talk) 09:25, 22 May 2019 (UTC)

Yes, of course, As a person who is against removing unsourced claim and reverting related edits, you are responsible to support your edit and claim! You are an experienced user, is it needed I explain that The whole articles pretty much highlights the lack of women rights in Iran seems to be OR? Saff V. (talk) 09:44, 22 May 2019 (UTC)

First of all, per WP:LEADCITE, citations are not required for the lead. Now lets take a look at the body of the article:

• "The World Bank's database, "Women, Business, and the Law" lists 23 restrictions in Iranian law that restricts married women in Iranian law. This includes "applying for a passport, traveling outside the home, choosing where to live, and being head of the household. Women cannot get a job or pursue a profession in the same way a man can; they cannot be ensured of equal pay for equal work, and there are no laws to restrain gender discrimination in hiring."[5]:16[7] The WPS report also notes that there "are no laws that penalize or prevent the dismissal of pregnant women from work, nor are there laws that provide rights for paternity or parental leave or tax deductible payments for childcare. The Iranian Civil Code confers power on a husband to prevent his wife from taking any job found to be incompatible with the family interest or the dignity of the husband or his wife. Women have no legal protection against domestic violence or sexual harassment by anyone, and the constitution has no non-discrimination clause with gender as a protected category."[5]:16"
• "With the rise of Ayatollah Khomeini, women's roles were limited as they were encouraged to raise large families and tend to household duties. Khomeini believed this to be the most vital role women could pursue. It was this belief that led to the closing of women's centers, childcare centers and the abolishment of family planning initiatives.[2]"
• "In mid-November 2018 United Nations General Assembly’s Human Rights Committee approved a resolution against Iranian government's continuous discrimination against women and limitation of freedom of thought.[18]"
• "Compulsory hijab was re-instated for Iranian state employees after the Islamic revolution in 1979, followed by a law for requiring the wearing of hijab in all public spaces in 1983.[23]"
• "On November 26, 2018 Nasrin Sotoudeh, a female political prisoner at Tehran's Evin Prison, began a hunger strike demanding the release of Farhad Meysami, a doctor who is in jail for protesting compulsory hijab.[26]"
• "On April 2019 a human rights lawyer in Iran was sentenced to 148 lashes and 38 years in prison for defending opposition activists and women's rights for not wearing hijabs in public.[27][28]"
• "The Guidance Patrol, an undercover law enforcement squad also known as "Morality Police" (Persian: گشت ارشاد‎ Gašt-e Eršād) surveys women in public for dress code violations.[24] Wearing a headscarf has been strictly enforced in Iran and has been since the Islamic Revolution in 1979. Women who do not wear a hijab or are deemed to be wearing 'bad hijab' by having some of their hair showing face punishments ranging from fines to imprisonment. It was announced that in the beginning of 2018, women would no longer be arrested for wearing 'bad hijab' in public. Though the announcement was viewed as a moderate improvement, activists campaigning against compulsory hijab have still since been targeted by police.[25]"

Unless you can show us that these implementations and laws (compulsory hijab, legal discrimination, morality police) are also carried out in developed nations, such as France, Netherlands, Belgium, Austria, Japan, Switzerland, the United States, Sweden, etcetera, this content will stay. Further tagging or attempts at removing will be considered WP:TENDENTIOUS editing. Best, - LouisAragon (talk)

From Susan M. Shaw, Nancy Staton Barbour, Patti Duncan., Kryn Freehling-Burton, Jane Nichols, eds (2018). Women's Lives around the World: A Global Encyclopedia. ABC-CLIO:

• "President Hassan Rouhani is striving to deliver on his pledges to relax social restrictions imposed on Iranian women by previous governments. Currently, Iranian women are restricted from attending various sporting events, such as national volleyball and soccer matches, as a result of strict gender regulation policies throughout the country. Similar to previous attempts to limit gender segregation, these efforts have been met with much resistance and criticism from conservative parties, who paint these policies as Western tendencies. Not only are Iranian women subjected to discrimination within the country, they are also prevented from pursuing their passion of sports outside of it. In 2011, the Iranian National Women's soccer team (...)" -- p. 109
• "In Iran, LGBT rights are nonexistent. Currently, Lesbian, gay, bisexual and transgender individuals suffer from human rights violations and denied the basic freedom to be themselves." -- Women's Lives around the World: A Global Encyclopedia -- p. 110
• "Women in Iran have struggled to regain many lost rights after the 1979 revolution. During the Pahlavi era (1925-1979), women in Iran were afforded free education, and in 1963 they gained the right to vote and run for positions in parliament. Many of these rights were rolled back after the 1979 election, and women were slowly shifted into traditional female careers such as teaching and nursing. Mandatory Islamic dress was implemented, and most women in decision making positions of power were either dismissed or forced into early retirement, or demoted. Unfortunately, it was almost 10 years before a woman was named a deputy minister and more than 30 before a female minister was named within the Islamic republic. -- p. 111
• "As an Islamic republic, there are rules and regulations that dictate many aspects of women's lives. (...) Iranian women are required to dress modestly and wear a hijab, or a headscarf. There are many women who would rather not wear a hijab in public, but there are also many who do and who wear it passionately." -- p. 112

- LouisAragon (talk) 12:39, 22 May 2019 (UTC)

As the link illustrates, It is hard to accept user:LouisAragon as 3O. Anyway, I appreciate his contribution, some provided sentences convince me, but most of them seem to be OR (analysis or synthesis of published material) and don't directly support the disputed sentence. I think it is better to provide some explanation after the sentence in the lead and point to the reason or example of women's right limitation. Saff V. (talk) 19:08, 23 May 2019 (UTC)

the reliability of Iran-HRM

It could be useful the answer to my question as to the reliability of Iran-HRM in RSN, So I brought the question and answer here:

Is it OK to use the iran-hrm for the following the material in Women's rights in Iran article? Thanks, Saff V. (talk) 13:28, 8 July 2019 (UTC) In mid-November 2018 United Nations General Assembly’s Human Rights Committee approved a resolution against Iranian government's continuous discrimination against women and limitation of freedom of thought.

There are probably many reliable sources documenting women rights in Iran. As Iran-HRM is an ctivist group, I would not use their reporting without attribution. However, this doesn´t mean we should change article balance to the POV of the Iranian regime (which is - I fear judging form the talkpage posts - intention of the OP). Simply find better sources (peer reviewed papers, mainstream media reporting) and replace lower quality sources. Pavlor (talk) 13:10, 9 July 2019 (UTC)

Saff V. (talk) 11:42, 10 July 2019 (UTC)