Talk:Plasma (physics)

Jupiter clarification

"The planet Jupiter accounts for most of the non-plasma within the orbit of Pluto (about 0.1% by mass, or 10−15% by volume)."

0.1% certainly isn't "most". Is this trying to say something about local density? Or should it talk about the percentage excluding the Sun? Or the percentage of mass excluding plasma, and note that the Sun is plasma?

JimJJewett (talk) 16:59, 23 September 2016 (UTC)

Flames

Unfortunately I can't edit this page myself. Too bad, but I hope someone will read this and do the correction.

In the "common forms of plasma" we have "Some extremely hot flames [citation needed]".

First of all - the citation can be found in the "flames" article:

Secondly, that citation doesn't claim that only "extremely hot flames" are plasma, but rather that ALL flames are plasma, including the flame of a candle: "What about fire? The flame of a burning candle is ionized, as we now know, and thus a plasma". So the article should be corrected by replacing "Some extremely hot flames" with "The flames of a fire (even candles)". 85.250.65.114 (talk) 10:38, 27 May 2012 (UTC)

I agree that this should be fixed. There's a nice YouTube video called "Electric Flame" (linking to youtube is so complicated). It demonstrates that flames contain ions. Tadmuck (talk) 19:10, 2 March 2013 (UTC)

State of matter

I didn't see any citation for plasma being a forth state of matter. I came here looking for evidence of it but all I could find was a table that seems to be trying to show that it is a 4th state but it's not very convincing. Specific question I am left with: If gases become plasmas when they are ionized, why do liquids not have a separate state of matter when they are ionized? Calling plasma a separate state of matter seems premature since they are apparently still being heavily researched and it also seems like something self-important physicists would claim, hence why I am looking for the actual citations.

Also, why is this article restricted to (physics)? shouldn't it also have a (chemistry) entry or preferably none of these parentheses at all? esp. given its status as 4th state of matter it would be of interest to students of chemistry69.223.177.179 (talk) 23:24, 16 January 2012 (UTC)

"State of matter" is not such a well-defined concept that everyone agrees on what is or isn't a separate state, and consequently it isn't of central importance to the physical sciences. There is a disambiguation article on Plasma, without parentheses, but chemists will be interested in the same definition of plasma as physicists. Art Carlson (talk) 07:51, 17 January 2012 (UTC)

It's really considered to be "common knowledge" that plasma is considered to be a fourth state of matter.  ;) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.196.248.241 (talk) 01:11, 16 June 2012 (UTC)

And should be considered the "First" state of matter, not the fourth - since even in Big Bang cosmology the first state of matter was plasma. So shouldn't we call it what we really believe it to be? Steven J White (talk) 13:48, 9 November 2014 (UTC)

Removed ball lightning

I have removed ball lightning because the page linked doesn't even say what it is, so we can't say it is plasma. From the page: Ball lightning is an unexplained atmospheric electrical phenomenon. The term refers to reports of luminous, usually spherical objects which vary from pea-sized to several metres in diameter. It is usually associated with thunderstorms, but lasts considerably longer than the split-second flash of a lightning bolt. Many of the early reports say that the ball eventually explodes, sometimes with fatal consequences, leaving behind the odour of sulfur. [23 May 2006] Iæfai (talk) 02:52, 19 March 2012 (UTC)

You should put it back, being as we know it is an atmospheric electrical phenomenon - and only plasma's are highly electrically conductive in gaseous states. Steven J White (talk) 13:53, 9 November 2014 (UTC)

Definition in Introduction

Not to nitpick but since this is a physics-related topic and a certain amount of "rigor" might be expected, I wonder if it might be more appropriate to say that plasma is a *kind* of matter, or *form* of matter; rather than a "state of matter." After all, plasma is an actual "physical substance" with mass, electrical charge, etc., it's not just a state, it's the actual matter itself. "State of matter" implies that Plasma = state - - but Plasma *is* matter. I only mention it since, like I said, it's a physics-related article and a certain amount of "rigor" might be appropriate.

I think "state of matter" is more appropriate, similar to its use when describing solids, liquids and gases. They could also be argued to be "kinds" or "types" of matter, but we are describing the state of matter here. --Iantresman (talk) 22:34, 8 November 2012 (UTC)

Yet in cosmological theory, plasma was the first state of matter to exist - and 99% of the universe "still" exists in this state. Still has not condensed into states of matter that have equal numbers of protons and electrons - solids, liquids and gasses - to which it behaves nothing like. It is the most unique "state" of matter there is, to which nothing else can be compared.. Steven J White (talk) 13:56, 9 November 2014 (UTC)

Comparison to the gas phase

In the section "Comparison of plasma and gas phases", the text reads that plasma ".. is closely related to the gas phase in that it also has no definite form or volume".

One of the characteristics of plasmas, is that it may indeed have both definite form and volume, eg. filamentation, the stars, heliospheric current sheet, etc. Should we reword, or find a different similarity? --Iantresman (talk) 22:59, 8 November 2012 (UTC)

I agree, which is why I protested when they took out the part about it having a behavior uniquely different from gas. Plasma (highly charged matter) has nothing in common with "neutral matter." We don't even use the same physics to describe each one. Steven J White (talk) 15:08, 20 February 2015 (UTC)

What about the CRT

Does a cathode ray tube, or for that matter, any vacuum tube have a plasma? I like to saw logs! (talk) 06:17, 30 January 2013 (UTC) according to deffinition, yes. it is ionized gas--205.215.84.77 (talk) 17:28, 30 April 2013 (UTC)

'...Even black holes' (disapprove of this description)

Even black holes, which are not directly visible, are fuelled by accreting ionising matter. This is a weird assertion; that black holes are 'fuelled'. I cannot find any support for that idea in the reference either. 70.185.104.164 (talk) 06:39, 21 April 2013 (UTC) BGriffin

Because they are Z-Pinches in a universe 99% plasma.

Simply charged particles orbiting a common electromagnetic center - not particles orbiting a point object of zero volume. See 2:23 timeline in the following.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kanYuBptuZ0 Steven J White (talk) 15:09, 20 February 2015 (UTC)

Steven, If you think you see a way to improve the article, then please improve it. Isambard Kingdom (talk) 15:24, 20 February 2015 (UTC)

secondary plasma field

when a secondary plasma field is generated by the interactions of certain metals and the primary plasma field ,a wide variety of observable phenomenon,may be viewed.finer metals and meshes work the best as hard or dense metals absorb to much themselves. the particular interaction between steelwool and stainless steel and the secondary field should be done under controlled conditions, as the steel wool will combust. the interaction with carbon to absorb ,ie your radio station signal within a reasonable distance to secondary field 12 feet or more. a third plasma reaction with yet a third gas will definitely bring more interesting observation. Ronald sykes 50.93.20.150 (talk) 05:51, 13 July 2013 (UTC)

plasma field interaction to create motion

With the use of a simple glass plasma globe,filled with various gasses,and the interaction with a non magnetic stainless steel mesh,wrapped over said globe, the interaction with the cosmic fields around us and outside earths vacume can be observed. with the use of common diodes and some newer materials ie. the new dimmer switches ,paired, a dual high voltage generator, a secondary evacuated gas tube,a 1 to 1 induction transformer and various arangements of capacitors,diodes and resistors, to create a varying field . this varying field effect will interact with a magnetic field,causing a varying flux, creating an observable up and down motion, if components are poised properly.although plasma interaction with the stainless steel requires a source of negative ions to perform the said function,this problem can easily be solved either by holding the ground source your self,as the human body is a type of plasma,the use of a ground wire to earth, or another source of non magnetic stainless steel.Ronald sykes (talk) 22:52, 21 July 2013 (UTC)

Nuclear Pasta

There are 5 states of matter now, another Pluto incident. Drrake (talk) 03:49, 24 July 2013 (UTC)

Contradiction?

The article refers to the electrons in a plasma as not actually being "free":

"It is important to note that although they are unbound, these particles are not ‘free’."

But the electrons are later referenced as "free electrons" here:

"The term "plasma density" by itself usually refers to the "electron density", that is, the number of free electrons per unit volume."

Would "unbound" not be a better term? Ducksandwich (talk) 15:17, 4 November 2013 (UTC)

A Conditions of Plasma

→Why debye length should be less than plasma length?(ZK)Plasma group please answere..'— Preceding unsigned comment added by Zikizk (talk • contribs) 10:23, 10 February 2014 (UTC)

Heat transfer

(ZK) Added image description from the potentials section to heat transfer, here. Prokaryotes (talk) 21:09, 5 April 2014 (UTC)

Disputed - "Plasma is the most abundant form of matter in the Universe, because most stars are in a plasma state."

I was going to add a disputed tag, but I'll just post it in the talk page first and add it if I get no responses here. This statement says it is the most abundant form of matter, but I'm pretty sure that title goes to "dark matter" or "dark energy," which while not characterized well in physics, has for more mass in this universe than regular matter we can see. Since we can only see it's effects on regular matter it may have been discounted. Maybe a qualifier should be added, like excluding dark matter and energy, or "regular matter," unless there is a more suitable term. If you disagree let me know why it should be called the most abundant form of matter.Wgfcrafty (talk) 07:22, 24 June 2014 (UTC)

You're right and wrong(?). I think yes, that plasma is the most abundant, non-dark matter. As I understand, dark matter (and much else in physics, particles/constants etc. cosmological constant) are "invented", to make the data fit the theory. "dark matter" is a huge unexplained gap. It may or may not be needed. I just recently saw that (could look it up), that "dark matter" may after all, be explained by some non-exotic particle after all.. One other, is Modified Newtonian dynamics (MOND) that I think is an older alternative, that fits the motion of galaxies, but may not "explain".. I think it is not saying exotic "dark matter" is needed.

Dark energy (the cosmological constant?) is however not matter and thus doesn't enter into this. comp.arch (talk) 09:48, 21 August 2015 (UTC)

Multipole resonance probe

The wiki needs a new article about the multipole resonance probe, developed by a group of scientists at the Ruhr University in Bochum Germany. It is a new diagnostic approach for plasma measurement.37.201.241.10 (talk) 15:34, 6 November 2014 (UTC)

Meaning of "definition"

In section 1.1 it states:

A definition can have three criteria:

Does this mean that the following three "criteria" must be met for the system to be called plasma? If so, this should be stated directly.

Note also that the three "criteria" are not binary tests (the usual meaning of criterion), but ratios that must come out large in order for it to be considered a plasma (assuming this is the intention). Then being a plasma is a matter of degree, and this should be reflected in the language chosen. 89.217.22.3 (talk) 09:11, 8 November 2014 (UTC)

Plasma parameter

I flagged the phrase "plasma parameter" in two places. It is used in two different senses - in the first case as the particular ratio Λ, in the second as any of several numbers. 89.217.22.3 (talk) 09:11, 8 November 2014 (UTC)

US or British spelling?

At the top of the article it states --THIS ARTICLE HAS BEEN STARTED IN US SPELLING. PLEASE KEEP PER WP:ENGVAR --

Actually, it wasn't. The first version appears to use British English[1]. The clue is the spelling of "behaviour".

I only raise this because a recent revert [2] seems a bit picky? Aarghdvaark (talk) 03:05, 9 December 2014 (UTC)

Wording question

Under the heading Thermal vs. Non-Thermal Plasmas, there is a sentence: "Non-thermal plasmas on the other hand have the ions and neutrals at a much lower temperature..."

I don't think "neutrals" is correct. However, I don't know if the intended word was "neutrons" or "neclei." Kirby777 (talk) 21:58, 24 May 2015 (UTC)Kirby777, 5-24-15 at 5:00 pm CST.

Chemist begs to differ, apart from much clearer, further substantiation

I have read here, and elsewhere at WP, that it is common knowledge that plasmas are a forth state of matter, alongside s-l-g. Like an earlier reader, I reply that the article does not make this clear, from a scholarly perspective—I do not see the substantiation, that there is acceptance, broadly, across the relevant fields—which include chemistry of all stripes—that plasmas should be considered and taught as a fourth state.

Perhaps differences between my and others asking this before me are that I am a chemical professional, active in research, teaching, and writing, and that I see the following, seemingly clear conundrum:

If the heating, EM field, laser, or microwave perturbation required to create a plasma "decreases or increases the number of electrons, creating... ions"... [a process] that "is accompanied by the dissociation of molecular bonds present"^{[ref name="Sturrock"]}… [emphasis added], then this is not a physical change of state at all, but rather a clear chemical reaction whose atomized products present very unique and seemingly (cosmically) very important physical properties. Illustrate it generally how you will, promote it how you will, there is no plasma state of aspirin, and converting aspirin to a CHO plasma is not a physical change of the state of this matter—though the same 2-(acetoxy)benzoic acid does enter the liquid state at 135°C (its m.p.), and can be taken without decomposition into the gas phase using electrospray MS methods. So, at first glance to this chemist, this purported general change of gases to plasmas is not a [general, accessible, real] fourth general physical state of matter. And if I see this, in passing here, I can guarantee that there are colleagues of mine who, on hearing of this "pitch" for the implications of plasma research, have already commented similarly, in print.

Moreover, like other such topical matters at WP that appear repeatedly in articles because it is someone's favorite subject, "plasma as four state" is not verified, broadly, where the claim appears in WP articles, from the required secondary sources—including chemical. It it can be done, so it is clear that all the physical chemists everywhere ascribe to this, then include the array of best citations wherever the claim is made. If it cannot be made so unequivocally among academicians—as I am guessing must be the case—that is, if there is a static preponderance of expert opinion that is not in full agreement to this "four states" paradigm/conceptualization, then it ain't so (current representation does not cut it). If this is the case, the other expert opinions need to be stated here also, even if in the minority of those writing about it. We are not to present something as a done deal, when there are expert "hold outs".

Otherwise, note, citing of self-published academician course notes as sources—this does not help the case for persuasion at all. Reply here as you will, and I will hold breath to hear how I am fundamentally misguided. Cheers. Le Prof [a chemist who has experienced three states, for >50 yrs] Leprof 7272 (talk) 01:13, 3 July 2015 (UTC)

Thank you for writing this. It allows me to think of plasma in a different light. As well, do you have an opinion of supercritical matter? Could that be considered a fifth state? Wavyinfinity (talk) 20:01, 10 July 2015 (UTC)

Recombination?

When a gas is heated or subjected to strong EM radiation it ionizes. That is clear to me. Why is there no mention of plasma recombination, meaning that when it cools it will go back gaseous state and release heat, an exothermic reaction? It is like talk of water being vaporized only to produce water vapor, but condensation... nope. Rain doesn't exist.Wavyinfinity (talk) 20:07, 10 July 2015 (UTC)

Plasmas generally have both ionization and recombination processes happening simultaneously, leading to an overall degree of ionization, as described in the article. Unlike the liquid-air case, there is no first order phase transition between ionized and recombined constituents. --Mark viking (talk) 00:40, 11 July 2015 (UTC)

"Science Fiction" section should be removed or rewritten

As is, this is unsourced and ... interestingly non-mainstream ... speculation. 129.67.118.111 (talk) 04:47, 12 January 2016 (UTC)

It's really misspelled too. "String physicist Michio Kaku thinks that plasma saber is the closest practical possibility of awesome weapon cause we can't have star wars light saber. However lots of research and work is required before we can realise that. We would need the power source to be extremely mobile something you can expect to not see for at least 20 years and the materials that can withstand extreme temperatures .These materials(ceramic fibres) exist but major modifications and improvements are needed. The plasma would be controlled by electromagnetic waves. A simple solution is to wound coils around it and pass current so that it is contained by magnetic field." It looks like a child wrote this thing. Somebody get it outta here. 108.208.70.47 (talk) 22:17, 12 January 2016 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 16 January 2016

The "Science fiction" section should be removed - it's poorly-written, unsourced speculation.

99.236.5.200 (talk) 18:27, 16 January 2016 (UTC)  Done Isambard Kingdom (talk) 19:01, 16 January 2016 (UTC)

Requested move 10 March 2016

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: Not moved. (non-admin closure)  — Amakuru (talk) 11:11, 18 March 2016 (UTC)

---

Plasma (physics) → Plasma – All the other things we call "plasma" are already specified in the title (i.e. Blood plasma). While we also have the subject in parentheses for Plasma (mineral), it is only a redirect. We should really have this take precedence, since it is one of the most known articles and is the only thing simply called "plasma". AYFKM (talk) 18:20, 10 March 2016 (UTC)

• Oppose this needs to stay a dab page. In ictu oculi (talk) 20:53, 10 March 2016 (UTC)

Why? Energy doesn't need to be a disambiguation page, it just goes straight to the physics definition. AYFKM (talk) 21:12, 10 March 2016 (UTC)

• Support - Clear WP:PRIMARYTOPIC. Oppose - IP below makes a persuasive point. (Note that if accepted Plasma → Plasma (disambiguation) would also need to be performed.)  InsertCleverPhraseHere  04:54, 11 March 2016 (UTC)
• Strong oppose just because the topics reside at different titles does not make this the primary topic by default. All other uses still need to be considered to determine primarity, and I see no reason to delete the disambiguation page either, for the same reason, that "plasma" refers to all the uses listed. Indeed, a primary topic argument can be made that "blood plasma" is the primary topic for "plasma" since it is very commonly called "plasma" and appears very frequently as such in the world at large -- 70.51.46.39 (talk) 05:46, 11 March 2016 (UTC)
• Oppose For the same reason stated by the IP editor above (70.51.46.39) --Guy vandegrift (talk) 06:55, 11 March 2016 (UTC)
• OP, you imply that only parenthetically disambiguated terms need be considered when determining if there is a primary topic. Can you explain your reasoning a little more? It seems to me that blood plasma and plasma (physics) are both roughly equally likely to be the intended target of a search for "plasma", so there is no WP:PRIMARYUSAGE. VQuakr (talk) 08:02, 11 March 2016 (UTC)
• Oppose. No evidence that the physics term is more common than the medical term. Axl ¤ [Talk] 13:05, 11 March 2016 (UTC)
• Oppose. For same reason, no evidence that the physics term is more common than the medical term. Also, this sort of suggestion often ends up being a distraction from more pressing issues of content. Isambard Kingdom (talk) 14:11, 11 March 2016 (UTC)
• oppose as Louie496 points out (below) neither should be treated as primary--Ozzie10aaaa (talk) 15:01, 11 March 2016 (UTC)
• Information Plasma (physics) shows 3687 page views per day, Blood plasma shows 2216. So although the physics article does draw more views, the balance is close enough that neither should be treated as primary. Looie496 (talk) 14:37, 11 March 2016 (UTC)

The guideline says "A topic is primary for a term, with respect to usage, if it is highly likely—much more likely than any other topic, and more likely than all the other topics combined—to be the topic sought when a reader searches for that term" (emph added). So this article gets even less primary when all the pageviews of the other usages in the disambiguation page are considered. VQuakr (talk) 20:29, 11 March 2016 (UTC)

---

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

Scope of "space plasmas"

Please see Talk:Astrophysical plasma#Scope of "space plasmas". Thanks. fgnievinski (talk) 16:04, 24 April 2016 (UTC)

Potentially incorrect statement in 2nd paragraph - need a physicist to confirm

Hi this post is about the second sentence of the second paragraph in the article which states:

"This decreases or increases the number of electrons, creating positive or negative charged particles called ions,[2] and is accompanied by the dissociation of molecular bonds, if present.[3]"

Unless my understanding of physics is horribly wrong, electrons are neither created nor destroyed when a gas is ionized. Rather the electrons are stripped away from one species and held by another. The total number of electrons in a given sample would be conserved through the ionization process to create a plasma from a gas. I'm aware that interactions between lone electrons and lone protons could change the total number of electrons present but from what I understand that's not the driving mechanism behind ionization and the effect of those interactions would be relatively small.

Can a physicist weigh in here and confirm or refute my point? Thanks and have a nice day everyone!

129.138.37.190 (talk) 05:38, 28 October 2016 (UTC)

I am no physicist, but maybe a "free" or "unbound" is simply missing before "electrons"? I.e. the number of free electrons changes, and not the number of electrons. Jhertel (talk) 07:45, 31 October 2016 (UTC)

I now changed "This decreases or increases the number of electrons" to "This decreases or increases the number of electrons in the atoms or molecules". I think that brings more sense into it and clears up the ambiguity. It can still be phrased better, though. Jhertel (talk) 08:16, 31 October 2016 (UTC)

Good Article Reassessment

It has come to my attention, after I've translated this article to Chinese, that it really no longer satisfies the GA criteria. My main concern is in the lack of inline citations, or just sources in general. Unsourced are the sections Ranges of parameters, Temperatures, Complete vs. incomplete ionization, Plasma potential, Comparison of plasma and gas phases, Common forms of plasma, Shocks or double layers, Electric fields and circuits, Critical ionization velocity, and Mathematical descriptions. The section Research was also just pulled from some non-authoritative website. There are too many dead links. I'm even slightly embarrassed to nominate it for DYK on the Chinese site. Whereas the general prose of the content seems fine, the article, which was mostly written and made GA in 2006, no longer meets the other criteria Wikipedia has come to develop. I've added the GAR request tag and look forward to the result. Yinweichen (talk) 22:50, 26 January 2017 (UTC)

Agreed. This article is a mess, which continues to tack on mostly irrelevant or of marginal importance subject material. Not all verifiable material is necessarily relevant to this article. You are justified to removed non-conforming material here. Arianewiki1 (talk) 03:24, 28 January 2017 (UTC)

Not only that, but most importantly, much of the article is unsourced.Yinweichen (talk) 16:57, 1 February 2017 (UTC)

@Yinweichen and Arianewiki1: Plasma (physics) has been nominated for community good article reassessment (link -KAP03(^{Talk • Contributions • Email}) 01:25, 22 May 2017 (UTC)

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WP:OWN violation

For whatever reason Arianewiki1 is choosing to violate WP:OWN. For the record "non-consensus edit" is not a wikipedia policy. In fact there is a policy that specifically forbids that: WP:BOLD. It is inappropriate to revert edits without a specific reason, and the fact that an editor has not asked for permission is not a valid reason.

If there is a specific concern, please state it. Otherwise please find some constructive way to contribute to Wikipedia.

-- MC 141.131.2.3 (talk) 00:49, 29 September 2017 (UTC)

The whole process of edit Wikipedia basically boils down to this, someone (you) makes a bold edit, others will review the edit and possibly revert it for whatever reason, you then discuss the edit. In this case, @Arianewiki1: seems to be just as justified in making the revert as you did for initially making the edits. I see no ownership issues here. Sakura Cartelet ^Talk 01:18, 29 September 2017 (UTC)

Disagreement isn't the same as ownership. Focus on the content, not the editor, here on the article talk page. And yes, WP:ONUS is policy. VQuakr (talk) 01:20, 29 September 2017 (UTC)

What nonsense. Boldness is one thing, but it has to be correct and make sense. Also "has not asked for permission is not a valid reason." I have said no such thing. Consensus is not asking permission in any sense.

• This is the edit here. [3] You wrote: "Plasma is a state of matter in which an ionized gaseous substance becomes highly electrically conductive to the point that long-range electric and magnetic fields dominate the behavior of the matter."

That does not simply define plasma at all, and is so over the top, it utterly confuses any reader. (Even the given cite is 1974.) Frankly, the better definition is that plasma are atoms with significant number of electrons removed. A dictionary definition is like: "An ionized gas consisting of positive ions and free electrons in proportions resulting in more or less no overall electric charge, typically at low pressures (as in the upper atmosphere and in fluorescent lamps) or at very high temperatures (as in stars and nuclear fusion reactors)."

• You also removed the text + cite "from Ancient Greek πλάσμα, meaning "moldable substance" πλάσμα Henry George Liddell, Robert Scott, A Greek–English Lexicon, on Perseus or "jelly") " Complaining "Statement a tad confusing (and maybe misleading)" Say who? Where is the consensus for this?

• You wrote this "...Earth's surface under normal surface conditions..." Is this not alliteration? (I also again removed "(other than lightning)" because it was not true, which is explained here.[4]

• Your complaint "Lead sentence should provide an actual definition of the topic." Yes, but it should be comprehensible too.

Get consensus, and explain yourself, which is what this article's Talkpage is for. Thanks. Arianewiki1 Arianewiki1 (talk) 01:28, 29 September 2017 (UTC)

@141.131.2.3: You wrote here[5] "For the record "non-consensus edit" is not a wikipedia policy. In fact there is a policy that specifically forbids that: WP:BOLD. It is inappropriate to revert edits without a specific reason, and the fact that an editor has not asked for permission is not a valid reason. ...If there is a specific concern, please state it. Otherwise please find some constructive way to contribute to Wikipedia."

Actually WP:CON says: "When editors do not reach agreement by editing, discussion on the associated talk pages continues the process toward consensus." and "When there is no wide agreement, consensus-building involves adapting the proposal to bring in dissenters without losing those who accepted the initial proposal." I wrote in the reason for the revert. "Please use talkpage for further edits."[6] That is Wikipedia policy.

It also says WP:BOLD "Don't be upset if your bold edits get reverted." It also says: "On controversial articles, the safest course is to be cautious and find consensus before making changes, but there are situations when bold edits can safely be made to contentious articles. Always use your very best editorial judgment in these cases and be sure to read the talk page."

As for "It is inappropriate to revert edits without a specific reason..." Says who? I've explained it.

"...and the fact that an editor has not asked for permission is not a valid reason.". Show where I have said this please. 'Consensus' does not mean 'permission'.

"If there is a specific concern, please state it." I now have.

"Otherwise please find some constructive way to contribute to Wikipedia." Considering your claiming WP:OWN and that I historically spent some time stablising this page, then this statement is somewhat contradictory. (Is what I think you are implying is that you just want me to get out of your way.) Really WP:PA does not help get consensus.

Note: Please consider becoming a registered User, as it helps in communication between editors here. (See Wikipedia:Tutorial/Registration) Arianewiki1 (talk) 02:14, 29 September 2017 (UTC)

@141.131.2.3: Any response here??? Arianewiki1 (talk) 00:30, 30 September 2017 (UTC)

Working on the lede.

Somewhat independent of the discussion going on above, I do find the first paragraph of the lede inadequate for defining the subject of this article. In reading the first paragraph, the reader is left wonder what plasma is. "Jelly"?, well, obviously not. Perhaps we can use something like "Plasma is a special kind of ionized gas and in general consists of positively charged ions, electrons, and neutrals." -- Taken largely from this intro article: [7] (not my definition). Note that some of this appears in the second paragraph, so we might rearrange material from there. Thoughts? Attic Salt (talk) 03:39, 29 September 2017 (UTC)

"Plasma is a special kind of ionized gas and in general consists of positively charged ions, electrons, and neutrals." A definition of plasma is difficult issue and not simple, because as a form of matter its behaviour is different than an ionised gas. In fact, the difference is by the amount of ionisation, which varies depending on the environment. In this case the electrons are separate from the highly positive atoms, acting like suspension aka jelly . (neutrals are what... Neutrons? Arianewiki1 (talk) 08:37, 29 September 2017 (UTC)

Are you saying you agree or disagree with article I linked above? The article defined neutrals as "atoms, molecules, radicals". Do you agree that the first paragraph needs work? Attic Salt (talk) 12:33, 29 September 2017 (UTC)

The article Introduction is perfectly AOK. Thanks. Arianewiki1 (talk) 00:28, 30 September 2017 (UTC)

Assuming that the first paragraph should provide some definition of "plasma", I suggest that some of the defining sentences in the second paragraph be moved up to the first paragraph. Attic Salt (talk) 03:22, 30 September 2017 (UTC)

Strongly Oppose. Look. I made the change on the 2nd Feb 2017 that added the definition of plasma which is here.[8] Introduction of the first sentence was changed on 24th February, which added a reference to the origin of the name plasma here.[9] The logic of the text is as follows:

• Paragraph 1 : This explains the name origin, then expresses it is the fourth state of matter, and it differs from the other three, because it does not naturally exist on Earth and can only be artificially generated. (All properly cited.)
• Paragraph 2 : Expands the concept by explaining sources and examples of either partial ionised plasmas and fully ionised plasmas: Then says plasma production produces electriv field then magnetic fields.
• Paragraph 3 : Differenciates between chemical ions and plasma

It is written to build up the nature of plasma in a logical order for a complex subject and summarises the order in which it appears in the main text of the article's page. I changed it becauqse the main text is very technical and complex. If you moved the second paragraph to the first one or second sentance, but you can't get past "...although the true technical transition between the two is mostly a matter of nomenclature and subject to interpretation." Putting that in the lead paragraph would confuse things, so ot is better to develop the concept about forms of plasma is a way that is simple to complex.

By saying "I suggest that some of the defining sentences in the second paragraph be moved up to the first paragraph." I would simply disagree entirely, only because it adds no information that plasma is principally the 4th state of matter and differs from the others by needing to be generated and does not exist as the ground state on Earth.

All these changes ave been scutinised for at least six months, and from the history of edits, we can assume some general consensus. I wrote much of this text to stabalise the article to remove past contentions by editors and those who have aimed to cause disruption with an obvious agenda. IMO, either give a better reason to change it, and not react so heavily to cause unnecessary future edits. Thanks. Arianewiki1 (talk) 06:31, 30 September 2017 (UTC)

Request for comment

Should the first paragraph of the lede contain a definition of "plasma"? Attic Salt (talk) 13:38, 30 September 2017 (UTC)

• Strongly oppose It seems that Attic Salt is trying to enforce change regardless of examining the explained reason, and worringly is almost refusing to engage and avoid with consensus the author with the issue. The whole Introduction is supposed to follow the main bulk of the text and summaries its content. (It is not as if there is no definition at all, and is certainly improved from the earlier version.)

My own explaination of why the version should stay have been expressed in the two other sections above.

Considering the complexity of the nature and context of defining plasma - especially differences between partial plamsa and fully ionisd plasma - its pure definition will always be contentious.

Note: Something doesn't quite gel here in the Attic Salt behaviour and that of 141.131.2.3 Sockpupperty?

Attic Salt Are you also 141.131.2.3? Arianewiki1 (talk) 23:13, 30 September 2017 (UTC)