Talk:Sciences Po

fr

I don't understand why the fr were removed: now the names don't link to any article, which is rather silly.

And yes, we don't need mention of the other IEP. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 131.111.8.101 (talk • contribs) 22:53, 8 May 2005 (UTC)

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This is how Wikipedia works: when articles don't exist, you write them. Don't forget that about 5.8 billion people don't speak french. Peco 06:23, 10 May 2005 (UTC)

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But then it should appear clearly from the fact that there is an article in French and none in English that the English version need be written, no? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 164.15.65.28 (talk • contribs) 11:52, 10 January 2006 (UTC)

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You're new here! That what red link means. Peco 09:41, 12 January 2006 (UTC)

FNSP

La Fondation Nationale des Sciences Politiques is Sciences Po's world-class research institution dedicated to many domains of political and social sciences.

I'm afraid it's not exactly true. The FNSP administrates Sciences po, Sciences po being subbordinated to the FNSP. Peco 15:11, 27 May 2005 (UTC)

Nope. Sciences Po refers both to the whole : IEP and FNSP. That the FNSP administers the IEP is barely relevant here and mentioned elsewhere. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 164.15.65.28 (talk • contribs) 11:20, 25 January 2006 (UTC)

Yeah, you're right. Sorry about that. Peco 19:13, 25 January 2006 (UTC)

Listing of Notable Alumnus

A previous discussion with User:81.7.26.202 resolved my confusion w.r.t. the listing of Ambassador Paul Bremer in this article. Since Ambassador Bremer was neither "head of state" and he wasn't the president nor prime minister of Iraq either, his listing was moved to World politics and government. Why has he been moved again? This time he's listed under world governance.

For the benefit of those who are a bit sketchy on the topic, the United States government is partitioned into three main branches of government:

• 1. Executive branch (the President of the United States)
• 2. Legislative branch
• 3. Judicial branch

Neither branch has more power over the other; except of course, the President of the United States who has special powers (which apparently is always under both congressional and public scrutiny) that include the authority to veto bills; appoint ambassadors, appoint members of his/her cabinet and the judicial branch (i.e the supreme court); pardon criminals; make executive decisions for the people whom he/she swore to serve, and make use of the United States military as the "Commander in Chief". Ambassador Bremer is not the President of the United States. He was appointed by the President of the United States in 2003 to serve in Iraq (which ended officially on June 28, 2004).

Again, my point is, Ambassador Bremer has been misplaced again.,,,,,<<<<greetings!,,,Ariele 18:10, 28 December 2005 (UTC)

Governance, not Government

I appreciate the Constitutional lesson, but I'm American (and the one who listed Bremer under International Governance). I think you do not fully understand the distinction between government, which you outline a bit above, and governance. Governance cannot be defined in such a clear, limited, and anachronistic way. Governance is not government, and Paul Bremer is not listed as head of state or government. He is listed as a head of international governance given that he was the head of the Coalition Provisional Authority in Iraq. In essence, Bremer was the American proconsul in Iraq. The term governance is not associated with the formal government of any one state, but is more associated with governing - or with political authority, institutions, and, ultimately, control. Governance in this particular sense denotes formal and informal political institutions or individuals that aim to coordinate and control interdependent social relations and that have the ability to enforce decisions within a given organization, state, region, or on the world stage more generally. This would include a head of the Red Cross or CARE International, a UN Secretary-General, and someone like Paul Bremer. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.58.136.168 (talk • contribs) 18:57, 28 December 2005 (UTC)

Dear anonymous:

If you're going to be headstrong about this, then my only reponse is this:

From the standpoint of those who are reading the Sciences Po article for the very first time, the perception is erroneous. Wikipedia was recently scrutinized for allowing anonymous users to contribute false information. I will repeat again, the ambassador did not have the authority equal to that of the President of the United States. For some reason you and several others seem to think he had and has. And for the benefit of those who are a little fanatical religiously, the ambassador is NOT the Antichrist. There are those who thinks he is.

And to repeat, User:81.7.26.202 and I concur that the ambassador fits best under government and politics not under world governance.

<Regards>.....Ariele 19:21, 28 December 2005 (UTC)

p.s. If you think the ambassador should fall under international governance, then you should also consider adding Christian Dior to the list as well. He is, afterall, the king of world fashion.

The anonymous User:24.58.136.168 has reverted a previous placement of the subject matter. The listing is questionable and conficts with the decision made by others.,,,,Ariele 19:53, 28 December 2005 (UTC)

Your Own Ignorance (compliments of User:24.58.136.168)

Sorry, but you clearly do not understand what governmance is vis-a-vis government. I suggest you look it up b/c the distinction is certainly not erroneous.

There's no need to apologize...for the one who calls another "ignorant" has his/her shortcomings too.,,,Ariele 19:48, 28 December 2005 (UTC)

Your explanation for moving his listing [back to your version] under notable alumnus is debatable. The transitional government is a misnomer [my opinion] because Iraqi ministeries were up and running very shortly after the old regime was ousted.

The ambassador's listing under world governance does appear to elevate his status to the far reaches of the universe. Is that how he would have wanted to be remembered?

Is that you again User:Geo Swan?,,,,,<<<haloo again,,,,Ariele 05:10, 30 December 2005 (UTC)

use of the article

The school should be referred to as "Sciences Po" not "the Sciences Po". — Preceding unsigned comment added by 164.15.65.28 (talk • contribs) 11:52, 10 January 2006 (UTC)

My edits

I noticed a few major problems with this article which I have since tried to fix. First, this article was way too long - it included a series of unnecessary information (e.g. listing some 30 institutional alliances in separate sections and sub-sections), and often repeated itself in many areas. Second, there was not a single reference made on the page. Third, there was not a condensed overview of the school listed at the top of the page - this is common for universities on wikipedia, partly b/c it allows people to understand the nature of an article quickly, without having to read or scan the whole article. Anyway, that basically sums up my edits - but I'll certainly try to do more... particularly vis-a-vis referencing. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.7.34.229 (talk • contribs) 10:27, 1 February 2006 (UTC)

Infobox edit

"Excellence, Innovation, Diversité" is not an actual motto, either official or unofficial, just some recent slogan, used e.g. on the occasion of Condoleezza Rice's remarks in February 2005 [1]. Actually the only Google results are Wikipedia pages... [2]. See the talk page of the article in French.

I also made a minor correction regarding the Sciences Po Library, which has never been a "political science arm" of the BNF.

Keriluamox 12:47, 4 March 2006 (UTC)

MPA and MBA

There needs to be detailed sections on each of the Sciences-Po 12 master degrees, but especially on the new MPA and MBA programs! — Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.7.40.189 (talk • contribs) 23:33, 6 August 2006 (UTC)

Pictures!

We also need more legitimiately uploaded pictures of Sciences-Po. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.7.40.189 (talk • contribs) 23:33, 6 August 2006 (UTC)

Redirecting

Whether or not we capitalize it, shouldn't we at least spell "Études" correctly? Backspace 02:38, 24 April 2007 (UTC)

In French, it is a mistake to add a diacritical mark (accent) to a capital letter. Moreover, "études" should not have a capital E in this instance, because only the first letter of a title is capitalised in French. One could even argue, as Keriluamox has, that "institut" should not be capitalised because there are, in fact, several instituts d'études politiques in France (cf. http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Usage_des_majuscules_en_fran%C3%A7ais#Institutions_et_organismes_d.27Etat). However, because the Institut d'études politiques was established long before the others were created and since you can still use this name (without specifying the town) to refer to the Paris IEP, I think that the correct title for this page should be: Institut d'études politiques de Paris. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Oddgame (talk • contribs) 16:16, 10 January 2012 (UTC)

Re diacritical marks on capital letters, the referred page http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Usage_des_majuscules_en_fran%C3%A7ais says the opposite: "L'Académie française recommande donc l'usage d'accent ou tréma sur une majuscule, tout comme l'utilisation de la cédille et de la ligature. Ainsi les publications de qualité écrivent-elles les majuscules (tout comme les capitales) avec les accents et autres diacritiques, au même titre que les minuscules. En effet, les signes diacritiques ont un rôle important dans les langues qui les utilisent." No doubt Wikipedia is a quality publication. But I agree that in this case it should be "d'études". Davidships (talk) 16:17, 16 March 2012 (UTC)

Fair use rationale for Image:Logo-sciences-po.jpg

Image:Logo-sciences-po.jpg is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in this Wikipedia article constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.

Please go to the image description page and edit it to include a fair use rationale. Using one of the templates at Wikipedia:Fair use rationale guideline is an easy way to insure that your image is in compliance with Wikipedia policy, but remember that you must complete the template. Do not simply insert a blank template on an image page.

If there is other fair use media, consider checking that you have specified the fair use rationale on the other images used on this page. Note that any fair use images lacking such an explanation can be deleted one week after being tagged, as described on criteria for speedy deletion. If you have any questions please ask them at the Media copyright questions page. Thank you.

BetacommandBot (talk) 06:47, 23 December 2007 (UTC)

Article

This article only mentions the school in Paris, the introduction and the whole layout must change or a new article must be created.Sheodred (talk) 16:03, 3 October 2010 (UTC)

Merge proposal

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section. A summary of the conclusions reached follows.

The result of this discussion was to merge Generalpoteito (talk) 14:17, 2 January 2013 (UTC)

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· The article École Libre des Sciences Politiques should be merged into this article. It is the same school. •••Life of Riley (T–C) 20:10, 25 February 2012 (UTC)

·I second this statement. The École Libre des Sciences Politiques is the institutional ancestor of Sciences Po, so that the relevant information about it could be directly merged into the History section of this article, which would serve the purpose of clarity for everybody. SalimJah (talk) 15:14, 27 February 2012 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Jose Socrates as an Alumni

I wonder why any mention of Former Prime Minister Jose Socrates as a current student of Po is washed over by this user Life of Gray. I think that to mention this is a valuable asset for this institution since rarely a Prime Minister goes to School after he is in such an elevated position. Once and for all Life of Gray must come here and present is reasoning for being portuguese-phobic. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 89.155.118.126 (talk) 02:10, 1 June 2012 (UTC)

Requested move

The following discussion is an archived discussion of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the proposal was moved. --BDD (talk) 18:33, 22 October 2012 (UTC) (non-admin closure)

Institut d'études politiques de Paris (Sciences Po, Paris) → Sciences Po – Per common name. Relisted. Jenks24 (talk) 05:53, 14 October 2012 (UTC) Rangoon11 (talk) 12:38, 26 September 2012 (UTC)

• Sounds like "bum" - just saying, not scientific, but my reason to prefer the present title. In ictu oculi (talk) 14:40, 28 September 2012 (UTC)

Not in English.Rangoon11 (talk) 16:29, 28 September 2012 (UTC)

• Agree. WP:COMMON applies. "Sciences Po" is by far the most common name for this institute. --RJFF (talk) 11:20, 14 October 2012 (UTC)
• Agree. "Sciences Po" is the name by which the school goes (and wants to go), both nationally and internationally. It seems confusing to me to continue to call it by its obscure French administrative name "Institut d'Etudes politiques de Paris". No one uses that denomination, not even Sciences Po's faculty, students and administrative staff... SalimJah (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 15:47, 15 October 2012 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

Christine Lagarde

Hello. I see Christine Lagarde as alumni of "Sciences Po" but in fact, she was gréaduated at "Sciences Po Aix-en-Provence", which is not "Sciences Po Paris". Correct please and sorry for my English. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.241.78.190 (talk) 16:29, 3 July 2015 (UTC)

I think this is fixed now. SalimJah (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 17:45, 14 September 2016 (UTC)

Assessment comment

The comment(s) below were originally left at Talk:Sciences Po/Comments, and are posted here for posterity. Following several discussions in past years, these subpages are now deprecated. The comments may be irrelevant or outdated; if so, please feel free to remove this section.

Comment(s)

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Hi, I modified the article today after reading the document quoted in the footnote. I am a French speaker and what this document says is not that the epithet "Sciences Po" is the monopoly of the IEP of Paris and the FNSP. It says: " L'appellation « Sciences Po Paris » recouvre l'ensemble F.N.S.P. et I.E.P. de Paris.", which means in English "the name "Sciences Po Paris" covers both the FNSP and the IEP of Paris". There are IEPs in different parts of France. When someone uses the words "Sciences Po" without mentioning a city people in Paris will first think of Sciences Po Paris, people in Lyon will first think of Sciences Po Lyon, etc... The publications of the FNSP are made under the name "Presses de Sciences Po". But one should bear in mind that although it is based in Paris the FNSP has a national outreach and often publishes books written by professors of various IEPs or universities, not just Parisian ones. "Sciences Po" therefore does not only refer to Paris. Now even students at the university studying political science are starting to say that they study "sciences po" at this or that university.

Substituted at 21:58, 26 June 2016 (UTC)

"formerly"

"Sciences Po (French pronunciation: ​[sjɑ̃s po]), formerly Paris Institute of Political Studies"...

Is this supposed to read 'formally'?

(If yes, 'officially' probably reads better.) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 93.95.87.188 (talk) 15:22, 17 August 2016 (UTC)

No, it's formerly, thanks.

--Launebee (talk) 13:45, 19 August 2016 (UTC)

Do you have a source that the name has been formally changed, as opposed to extensive use of the shorter brand? Mezigue (talk) 15:25, 26 August 2016 (UTC)

The question is more: is there a source saying that it is still one of his name? Don’t you think? --Launebee (talk) 13:07, 27 August 2016 (UTC)

Er, no. To claim the change, you need a source. This is a public institution; its management may change the brand but it takes a government decree or something like that to change its actual name. Mezigue (talk) 20:11, 28 August 2016 (UTC)

The easiest is perhaps to write "or"? --Launebee (talk) 22:56, 28 August 2016 (UTC)

Neutrality and citations

I deleted a lot of unencyclopedical content, but there is more to do so I put banners. --Launebee (talk) 09:59, 17 July 2016 (UTC)

Hi Launabee, I saw that you deleted the all information on admissions to Sciences Po and any description of its undergraduate degree-structure. This kind of information isn't superfluous or generally biased. How come you deleted it anyway? 2003:42:2E00:1DB3:C09:D546:69B8:84C7 (talk) 20:46, 10 August 2016 (UTC)

I don't understand your question. It's not encyclopedical content. --Launebee (talk) 10:20, 11 August 2016 (UTC)

That is incorrect. A standard Wikipedia article on a university will feature the "academic profile". This also includes information on admissions and offered degrees. Therefore, my question concerning your deletion. 2003:42:2E34:1105:8F8:10CD:6577:4006 (talk) 15:02, 13 August 2016 (UTC)

Look, Launabee: Somehow you seem to hold a deep grudge against Sciences Po and HEC.. Of course it is completely legitimate to criticize these institutions in an argumentative manner. However, Wikipedia is not the place to carry out a personal vendetta against these institutions. Your critique focuses on these institutions, whilst you spare other universities such as École Polytechnique or Oxford or Harvard.. Also, at the same time you add positive sounding content to the article on Panthéon-Assas. This seems a bit like rival pettiness. I strongly ask you to reconsider your approach to editing and remind you of the purpose of Wikipedia as a source of unbiased knowledge. 2003:42:2E34:1158:78D3:DDA5:7E1A:D570 (talk) 09:18, 14 August 2016 (UTC)

Concerning my last change to the article: Launabee, I have changed the wording of the passage on Sciences Po's status in French society and you have undone this. The reason that you give, is that citing specific reasons for Sciences Po's "positive" status in French society must be balanced by citing a similar number of reasons for critique. Firstly, that is incorrect and secondly the wording already did adequately reflect the points which critics bring forth against the university. Saying that the school is criticized for furthering elitism and technocracy says the same as quoting commentators who find that the School produces "incompetent" and "blinkered" alumni. The only difference is that by summarizing the points which critical voices make and putting them in descriptive language is in accordance with encyclopedic style of writing, while citing specific insulting commentators is not. I also ask you to respond to questions concerning your editing on this article, if you are going to continue editing. Kind regards 2003:42:2E66:436A:98D:9112:7EC7:E8BE (talk) 21:12, 18 August 2016 (UTC)

Thank you for your concern. However, the reformulation has to be correlated to what the sources say. I reformulated without any quote, hope it's fine for you now.

Please don't do any personal attack against me, there is no vendetta here. I didn't say it has to be balanced but that's everything has to be dealt with the same way. I note by the way that your only edits are in this article with several IP addresses.

--Launebee (talk) 13:43, 19 August 2016 (UTC)

Please stop your disruptive editing with different IP adresses. Thanks.

--Launebee (talk) 13:22, 24 August 2016 (UTC)

There was no personal attack intended, I was commenting on the circumstances of your editing. My apologies for any misunderstanding. The revision of your editing was corrective and not disruptive (please see my reasons below). The fact that I use different IP-addresses for editing has nothing to do with the level quality and validity of my individual editing-measures.

Presenting descriptive information, which relates to quantitatively measurable circumstances, such as acceptance rates and placement records is very different from rephrasing highly subjective and strongly insulting statements by individual commentators ("creating an oligarchy", "disconnected with reality", "blinkered, arrogant and frequently incompetent"). It is highly uncommon to present these kind of insulting statements as the ones you have chosen, within any encyclopedic article on a university. There are no reasonable grounds for this unusual and derogatory style of editing. Similar institutions from around the world face the same line of negative comments, but this is not seen as a sufficient reason for rephrasing insulting statements within encyclopedic articles. The only explanation which seems plausible is a personal dislike on the side of the editor. This however is not an adequate reason for this non-standard practice kind of editing. For these reasons I ask you to reedit the insulting statements you have added to the article. Kind regards.

213.61.160.117 (talk) 14:56, 26 August 2016 (UTC)

No, not every big institution is said to produce incompetent people like Sciences Po is. But because it’s in the lede, we can reduce this sentence.

--Launebee (talk) 13:03, 27 August 2016 (UTC)

Hey Launebee! I see that you put banners at the top of the Sciences Po article indicating that some of the content was ad-like and some needed more references. Could you please be more specific as to which part(s) of the article you're referring to? That would be useful for the folks out there who may want to improve it. Thanks! :) SalimJah (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 17:40, 14 September 2016 (UTC)

Launebee what is your problem with Sciences Po? Writing "creating an oligarchy", "disconnected with reality", "blinkered, arrogant and frequently incompetent" (do you write for Libération by the way?), and then placing banners at the top of the page (why? This article doesn't look like an advert at all. Look at some other wikis for unis and you will see for yourself). That's a bit rubbish. Not very encyclopedic of you. Anyway not to sound upset with you, but not sure what good running Sciences Po down on the world's encycolpedia is doing. That's all I have to say - Have a nice day :). — Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.156.54.227 (talk) 07:22, 16 September 2016 (UTC) Also, you're clearly not an alumn of Sciences Po -- why are you all over the wiki to the point where you're vandalizing it? Chill out and tell the truth. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.156.54.227 (talk) 07:24, 16 September 2016 (UTC)

I deleted the banners Launebee added. I went and reviewed Launebee's 'contributions', and found she was lying about the citations she was using, while also vandalizing other people's work (see "Intro" section below). I therefore deleted the banners she put up, because we have evidence she is a dishonest editor, and from what I can judge, putting these banners up was also not founded in reality, like her other statement I highlight below. From reading comments above, it looks like she has deleted much other encyclopedic content because she goes to Paris II and hates Sciences Po and just wants to vandalize the page. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.156.54.227 (talk) 18:37, 16 September 2016 (UTC)

Hello all,

I took a few hours and made some changes to Sciences Po's intro section last week. I used the Yale and University of Chicago intros as my template for what to include and how to structure it. (e.g., why it was founded, when, and its influence in French society. Here is my hard work:

The Institute is composed of the Collège universitaire for undergraduate studies, six professional schools, research divisions in law, economics, history, political science, and sociology, and the doctoral school. The main Paris campus encircles Boulevard Saint-Germain in the 7th arrondissement, and five additional campuses are spread across France. Current enrollment is approximately 13,000 students.

Sciences Po is ranked 4th in the world for Politics and International Studies in 2016,["QS World University Rankings by Subject 2016 - Politics & International Studies". Top Universities.] and its rankings in law, economics, and sociology were among the top in Europe.["QS World University Rankings by Subject 2016". Top Universities.] Sciences Po is a member of several academic consortia (including APSIA and the College Board). Beyond its academics, Sciences Po is well known for its international outlook. Forty per cent of students are from outside France, every undergraduate is required to spend his or her third year abroad, and the Institute has a wide range of partnerships with some 410 universities around the world. The Institute also maintains a robust sport programme.

Founded in response to France's crisis after the Franco-Prussian War and the fall of the Second Empire, the goals of its founders were to train new elites and produce modern knowledge for a new France.["NOTRE HISTOIRE". Sciences Po.] Since its founding, Sciences Po students and faculty have played a major role in the life and development of France, particularly in government. Sciences Po and its innovative curriculum would inspire and serve as the model for the London School of Economics.

Sciences Po has many prominent alumni. This includes five of the last six French presidents, 13 French prime ministers, 12 foreign heads of state or government, leaders of international organizations including the UN, IMF, and WTO, and roughly half of ENA’s cohort each year. CEOs from several of Europe's largest companies, and influential cultural figures have also studied there. Many of the faculty are also prominent in their fields, both as practitioners and/or academics.

Launebee went in and deleted all my USEFUL work, and changed it to this:

Sciences Po was founded in 1872 and its main campus is located rue Saint-Guillaume in the 7th arrondissement. It maintains now departments in political science, economics, history, sociology, law, finance, business, communication, social and urban policy, management, and journalism. It is a member of several academic consortia (inclding APSIA and the College Board) and have partnerships with 410 universities.

Sciences Po is ranked 4th in Politics and International Studies by QS 2016 World University Rankings.[2] Sciences Po has produced many notable alumni: five of the last six French presidents and approximately 23 Prime Ministers have studied or taught at Sciences Po, as well as heads of international organizations like the United Nations and the International Monetary Fund. It is seen in France as an elite institution[3][4][5] but is strongly criticised in France and abroad and faced numerous scandals.[6][7][8]

Launebee, you made many errors in your English grammar while you tried to ruin my hardwork that IMPROVED this wiki IN LINE WITH WIKIPEDIA'S STANDARDS. Also, your 'citations' after the phrase "faced numerous scandals" DO NOT MENTION ANY SCANDALS. You're just lying at this point. I'm removing your banners, because clearly you are a vandal. I suggest rather than waste time vandalizing Sciences Po's wiki, you spend that time improving your English. If you keep this up, I'm going to report you to the moderators and we will launch an investigation. Consider this your warning. I don't think there will be any problem having your privileges removed, considering all of the negative comments others have said about your modifications in the past, along with your most recent outburst detailed above.

— Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.156.54.227 (talk • contribs)

I filed a dispute resolution request there for your personal attacks on me.

--Launebee (talk) 10:57, 17 September 2016 (UTC)

Please stop your behaviour and your sexism: because you think I am a liar and I am dishonest, so I should be a woman?

The words "brilliant but blinkered, often arrogant and frequently incompetent ruling freemasonry" are in the newspaper article that was linked to in this article before I came, and I finally did not quote it entirely.

If your are not happy with the word scandal, just say it instead of insulting me. Le Monde has for example several articles on the "scandal of salary in Sciences Po" and MediaPart has a special page with all the articles about scandals in Science Po. It’s in the wiki article.

Please stop your disruptive editing and your insults.

--Launebee (talk) 11:38, 17 September 2016 (UTC)

Note also that I added in the article the good ranking of Sciences Po by Eduniversal. Please focus more on the content of the article than in who hates or loves what.

--Launebee (talk) 11:53, 17 September 2016 (UTC)

Launebee, could you please point out where any comments have been sexist? Calling someone sexist for NO REASON is way over the line. You are such a troll. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.156.54.227 (talk) 23:52, 17 September 2016 (UTC)

You are the one who is the disruptive editor. You deleted a ton of my work again describing the degree structure. Why? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.156.54.227 (talk) 23:54, 17 September 2016 (UTC)

I did not call you sexist, I wrote that you show sexism. I gave you the link to the dispute resolution page.

It is an encyclopedia here, not a advertisement page, a catalog or a place to insult people. You have to show respect toward the other editors, volunteers just like you.

--Launebee (talk) 08:52, 18 September 2016 (UTC)

You said to "stop my...sexism". That's a pretty serious accusation. You say because I called you dishonest, I am showing sexism. How would I know whether you are female or male? You are just an angry person from all I know. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.156.54.227 (talk) 01:56, 19 September 2016 (UTC)

Note

All parties, please read WP:NOTVAND and WP:AGF. Comment on content, not the contributor. --NeilN ^{talk to me} 10:52, 18 September 2016 (UTC)

Full protection

This article has been fully protected so that it can oly be edited by administrators. Contributors wishing to edit its content please follow the instructions at WP:Edit request. --Kudpung กุดผึ้ง (talk) 00:30, 18 September 2016 (UTC)

Protected edit request on 18 September 2016

In the lede:

1) a) Remove "Collège universitaire" mentionned twice in the lede. Sciences Po is not a university but tries to add "university" everywhere to have people think it is. This is only a misleading advertisement name with no informative value (on the contrary, it is misleading), so it has not its place in an encyclopedia.

b) Remove the mention of "encircles Boulevard Saint-Germain". It’s not at all in this street, not encircles it. Once again a tentative to artificially associate Sciences Po with "great" things.

The previous paragraph was better: "Its main campus is located rue Saint-Guillaume in the 7th arrondissement. It maintains departments in political science, economics, history, sociology, law, finance, business, communication, social and urban policy, management, and journalism.

2) a) "Sciences Po is ranked 4th in Politics and International Studies by QS 2016 World University Rankings." is more objective than "Sciences Po is ranked 4th in the world for Politics and International Studies in 2016", it’s not a absolute rank but one ranking.

b) Remove "its rankings in law, economics, and sociology were among the top in Europe.", argumentative, the source does not states that.

3) Remove "Founded in response to France's crisis after the Franco-Prussian War and the fall of the Second Empire, the goals of its founders were to train new elites and produce modern knowledge for a new France."NOTRE HISTOIRE". Sciences Po.". Self‑praising from the School, not neutral and no independant source.

4) Isn’t the gallery too big?

5) Deletion of the first paragraph in History section, already explained in the relevant subsection.

Launebee (talk) 09:10, 18 September 2016 (UTC)

Re:3. The grammar in this sentence is wrong. I fixed it on 9 September but was reverted with no explanation and now the article is blocked to non-admin users. On the other hand I disagree that there is a neutrality issue as these are the stated goals of the school rather than a claim that they were fulfilled. Mezigue (talk) 12:05, 18 September 2016 (UTC)

Concerning Launabees' request Nr. 1) b): Sciences Po does have lecture halls directly on Boulevard Saint-Germain. Also, there are lecture halls on Rue de l'Université and on Rue Saint-Guillaume. Therefore, "encircles Boulevard Saint-Germain" is highly accurate and mustn't be changed. 85.179.49.244 (talk) 22:17, 18 September 2016 (UTC)

Concerning Launabees' request Nr. 1) a): Why is Sciences Po not a university? It has several very distinct faculties. It is a specialist institution and a grande établissement, but how does this disqualify Sciences Po for being a university? 85.179.49.244 (talk) 22:31, 18 September 2016 (UTC)

1) a) Sciences Po is clearly not a university, sorry.

b) The main adress is on rue Saint-Guillaume, the others are secondary. --Launebee (talk) 23:13, 18 September 2016 (UTC)

I am going to respond to Launabee's 5 points, the order she gave them, point-by-point:

1. Launabee is correct, Sciences Po is not a university. French universities must accept anyone with a Bac (high school diploma). Sciences Po is a grand école, which lets it select the students it wants, unlike a "university" in the French system. However, Sciences Po's undergraduate college is called the "Collège universitaire". So, "Collège universitaire" in this article refers to the undergraduate college. (Sciences Po has different schools - the professional schools (for master's programs) and the "Collège universitaire" for bachelors programs. Not very complicated.)

1b. Boulevard Saint-Germain: Here is a link to the campus map (Sciences Po buildings are in red): http://blogs.cie.utoronto.ca/wp-content/uploads/2013/09/SciencesPo-map.jpg

So, the campus does in fact encircle the Boulevard Saint-Germain. Not sure how anyone could argue against that interpretation of the geography of Sciences Po's buildings when viewing the actual map.

Sciences Po used to be located only at 27 Rue Saint Guillaume. However, nowadays, less than half of any students' classes are taught there (it's different for different students - some have all of their classes there, some have none, but for most of us, the majority of our classes are somewhere else). Also, the administrative offices are at another building. Similarly, the law school, international affairs school, journalism school, communications school, and Doctoral School are all in other buildings. I would disagree the building on Saint Guillaume it is the "main" building. There really isn't a main building at Sciences Po, but this is the biggest building and many years ago was the only building.

I wrote the sentence that the "campus encircles Boulevard Saint Germain", not to be associated with something, but because it's the most accurate way of describing the campus. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.156.54.227 (talk) 03:50, 19 September 2016 (UTC)

2. Launabee deleted the phrase its rankings in law, economics, and sociology were among the top in Europe because this is "argumentative, the source does not states that."

I am going to address this comment in 2 parts:

(1) "The source does not say that": The Source is: http://www.topuniversities.com/subject-rankings/2016. From this Source, one can view all of the rankings for each of those fields (law, economics, and sociology) with one click. So the Source does provide rankings for these fields. If someone thinks its better to have three separate direct links from the same Source, rather that one reference to the page where all of the rankings can be found, feel free to change this and put in the direct links.

(2) Having established that the Source, QS Rankings by Subject, does provide these rankings, let's examine the statement that Sciences Po's 'rankings in law, economics, and sociology are among the top in Europe' is "argumentative": By viewing the rankings by subject, one can see the top 100 schools in the world in each subject. For Law, I count 13 European schools ranked in the top 50. The 51-100 range of schools are not individually ranked, but there are 19 European schools in the 51-100 range, including Sciences Po. From this, we can deduct that Sciences Po is ranked in the 14-32 range for Law out of all European schools (including the UK and Non-EU countries). Using the same method for Economics, we can deduct Sciences Po is in the 17-34 range for European schools. For Sociology, counting again only the European schools on the rankings, Sciences Po is #17.

Doing a quick google search, there are 4,000 higher education establishments in Europe. Of course, not all 4,000 teach economics, or law, etc., so let's estimate that only half of them teach each subject (this is an assumption I am making, feel free to say I am wrong if you have sources). A #12 ranking is in the top 1% from a pool of 2,000 higher education establishments, and any ranking in the 14-32 and 17-34 range would be in the top 1-2%.

The question is thus is a ranking in the top 1-2% "among the top"? I think the answer has to be yes.

3. History / "self praising":

(1) History: If you look at peer institutions of Sciences Po's wikipedia pages, you will find a sentence or 2 describing how and/or why the institution was founded. See: Free University of Berlin, University of California, Berkeley, the LSE, and Paris I (Sciences Po offers double degrees with all of these schools, which is why I used them, and why I think it is a fair comparison. I don't think it's advisable to compare the wikis of lesser-known universities, or universities in the developing world). Besides having 1-2 sentences describing their history/founding, these other universities also maintain lengthy sections for history in the article. So, mentioning the reasons for founding the place is totally in line with what other pages are doing.

Launabee, please explain why this is not the case, and why the Free University of Berlin, University of California, Berkeley, LSE, and Paris I's pages are also wrong and should also be changed if you still disagree.

(2) "Self praising": Sciences Po was founded exactly for the reason of training new elites in France. There is no dispute about that. Perhaps a third-party source can be found saying so. This would be better, although the original founding documents / minutes from the meeting would be best as the primary source if anyone can find them.

4. Gallery:

I created the gallery after looking at Dartmouth College's, which has 13 people. Sciences Po's has 15. Cambridge and Oxford both have many pictures in their alumni sections (though not in a gallery format).

I think having a gallery improves the visual appeal of the article. This could be debated.

5. See 3 above. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.156.54.227 (talk) 02:57, 19 September 2016 (UTC)

Bonus: I see you made a section entirely for Scandals. Could you please provide a link to any other serious school's wiki that contains a "Scandals" section? The University of Cambridge had a spy ring recruiting people to infiltrate British intelligence and spy for the Soviet Union - pretty big scandal. It's not even mentioned on its wiki. Georgetown University owned slaves and sold them, Harvard has had massive cheating scandals - these get 1 sentence and are placed in the "History" and "Teaching" sections. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.156.54.227 (talk) 04:12, 19 September 2016 (UTC)

Break

 Administrator note User:Launebee: Based on the comments above, please can you clarify which of your 7 proposed changes are supported by consensus? — Martin (MSGJ · talk) 11:06, 19 September 2016 (UTC)

Dear 75.156.54.227,

1. One, they don’t encircles it, second, the main adress in on rue Saint Guillaume.

2. For you, the top 800 would be top 2% and then said in the lede to be the top of Europe? It doesn’t make sense. Moreover, precision is a key in encyclopedia.

3. If you want to edit other pages, please do it. Here, the sentence in not neutral. And it doesn’t work like that: you have to find a neutral source to add a praise in the article, not the other way.

"Bonus" : no institution has so many scandals, and so extensively covered by the press, and so many lawsuits and official reports mentioning it, that’s why a section was needed here. But you are only active on this article, feel free to edit the other ones.

--Launebee (talk) 14:16, 19 September 2016 (UTC)

Hello, I noticed Launebee deleted my responses to her points above. I am only coming back to put them back. And no, I am not the same person as 78.51.193.8, despite what Launebee alleged.

1. One, they don’t encircles it, second, the main adress in on rue Saint Guillaume.

My Response: View the map: http://blogs.cie.utoronto.ca/wp-content/uploads/2013/09/SciencesPo-map.jpg. In English, "Encircle" means "surround." So saying the campus does not encircle Blvd Saint Germain is a lie.

2. For you, the top 800 would be top 2% and then said in the lede to be the top of Europe? It doesn’t make sense. Moreover, precision is a key in encyclopedia.

My Response: No, that's another lie. 800 / 2000 = 40%. So, 800 would be in the 40th percentile. 20 / 2,000 = 1%, 40 / 2000 = 2%. So, only the top 40 would be in the top 2%. It's basic maths.

3. If you want to edit other pages, please do it. Here, the sentence in not neutral. And it doesn’t work like that: you have to find a neutral source to add a praise in the article, not the other way.

"Bonus" : no institution has so many scandals, and so extensively covered by the press, and so many lawsuits and official reports mentioning it, that’s why a section was needed here. But you are only active on this article, feel free to edit the other ones.

My Response: Please provide evidence to support your claim that no other institution has had so many scandals.

Launebee, I don't think its constructive to bring your method of deleting anything you don't like also to the Talk page. No, this is not a personal attack against you. Just stop deleting everything you don't like.

--75.156.54.227 — Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.156.54.227 (talk) 07:28, 23 September 2016 (UTC)

I'd ask you quietly to remove your inferences of lying from your comment please. Assume good faith on the part of Launebee, if they are incorrect comment on that, don't presume an intention to deceive. I've also re-instated your comment. I won't change it -excluding an indent- as I prefer not to edit others comments except where absolutely necessary. Mr rnddude (talk) 10:00, 23 September 2016 (UTC)

Dear MSGJ,

It seems none. Since IP user, who said he’s an alumni from Sciences Po, and is only active on this article, insists on putting advertisement in it. --Launebee (talk) 14:16, 19 September 2016 (UTC)

Unanimity is not required; rough consensus will suffice. I have disabled the request for now, but feel free to reactivate for any of your proposals if they have broad support. — Martin (MSGJ · talk) 19:45, 19 September 2016 (UTC)

Response: I've written several things describing the information about admissions (standards and statistics), and listed the professional schools - I copied what other university's were doing on their wikis, and Launebee deleted this because it was "like an advertisement". If you look at the history of the article, this has been going on for a long time. I understand many people in France resent Sciences Po. I don't think they should come to wikipedia to try to ruin Sciences Po's reputation and re-write history.--75.156.54.227

Moderators: Does it strike you as odd that half of the page is about "Scandals", provided by Launebee, and this same Launebee has deleted anything someone has written to try describing the school under the pretenses that this is "advertising", then offers lies in response and accuses those who disagree with them of sexism? And then also, this same person has written glowing things about Sciences Po's rival university, Paris II, basically writing the whole page? I'll let you ladies and gentlemen decide what's really going on here (of course, no one has gone on the Paris II wiki to do the same thing Launebee is doing here.)--75.156.54.227

Conclusion: I will not be coming back to "debate". I've responded to that stuff above. Launebee can continue her campaign to run down Sciences Po on wikipedia while making Paris II seem like heaven. I will not be coming back to respond to anything whatsoever as I see I'm spending hours "debating" with a tro||. I would request that those banners at the top of the page be taken down, because they were put there by a tro|| for purposes of tro||ing.--75.156.54.227

From this experience, I see that Wikipedia is, like it's own founders have said, run by tro||s. I'm finished forever with this website. Any logic gets ignored and lies are thrown back in your face when you try to improve something and people pushing an agenda want to delete it. If you call those people out, they accuse you of being sexist. This is a waste of my valuable time. Best regards.--75.156.54.227

— Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.156.54.227 (talk)

If anyone disagrees with my propositions, please say so.

--Launebee (talk) 21:46, 19 September 2016 (UTC)

If anyone agrees with Launebee's propositions, please say so.--75.156.54.227

Again, I want to strongly express my opposition to Launabee's style of editing. Critical voices are absolutely necessary for producing accurate and informative content on Wikipedia, especially where editors may directly benefit from inaccurate and overly positive content (i.e. universities, companies, film-productions, etc.). However, Launabee has been going the opposite direction, by unreasonably bashing Science Po on Wikipedia, in a way which would be unacceptable for any article. To the editor with the IP-address 75.156.54.227: Please do keep up your argumentative, rational and balanced work on the article. Kind regards, 78.51.193.8 (talk) 10:29, 20 September 2016 (UTC)

I reported the personal attacks there. Attacking me, even in a civil manner, rather to discuss actual content will lead to nothing for you. --Launebee (talk) 08:08, 21 September 2016 (UTC)

The critique against the editing of Launabee has been based on specific deletions and insertions. I understand that edits must be criticized themselves and not the editor - however, where one user unreasonably and continuously undoes hard work of other users, it must be possible to give opposition.

1.) Concerning the proposed changes 1) - 5): I find the points which were laid out against these changes clear, concise and very convincing. Therefore, I also strongly oppose these changes.

2.) Furthermore, I think that it would greatly improve the article, if there were a section which lays out the degree structure at Sciences Po. Firstly, this kind of information can be found in almost all Wikipedia articles on universities - it is not unencyclopedical. Secondly, the degree-structure at Sciences Po is comparatively complex and distinct. Thus, this kind of information would help the reader to easily get a better understanding of how Sciences Po works.

3.) I also propose that the "Reputation and scandals" part should be integrated into the schools history, rather than being an individual sub-section. This would keep the article in line with the standard practice on Wikipedia articles on universities. 78.51.195.242 (talk) 09:44, 22 September 2016 (UTC)

The standard practice is to have a reputation section, and here, there are so many scandals that it should be there.

Note that everybody is hard working here.

--Launebee (talk) 10:11, 22 September 2016 (UTC)

Follow-up on the edit war: what to do about this article now?

Having briefly reviewed the above exchanges between Launebee and the unregistered user, I must say that the latter's responses to Launebee's points sound very sensible to me. Focusing *only* on content here (since I strongly regret the personal tone that this conversation has taken), I think that much of the material which had been added by the unregistered user was actually useful, and could have been improved upon or moved to other sections of the article. Looking at the edit history, Launebee's way of editing this article did not strike me as very collaborative: massive deletion of the existing content, replaced by a negative tone and a strong focus on scandals right from the start. After all, every elite/elitist institution in the world has to face strong criticism (some of which is warranted), and I don't think that Launebee helped reach a neutral point of view through his relatively aggressive edits. I'm not saying that the scandals don't belong in the article. They do. Simply that the unregistered user's contributions did add something valuable, and I regret the fact that Launebee did not take them as an opportunity to reach a balance in his edits, which would have resulted in a significant improvement over the current write-up. So, do we really need to protect this article until March 2017? And Mr unregistered user, why don't you come back and register an actual account (it will take you a minute!) so that we could all have a productive conversation as to what needs to be done? SalimJah (talk) 18:20, 22 September 2016 (UTC)

I reported here your comment about my "agressive edits".

Once again, again, it is false to say everyone has critics like Sciences Po does. If the section is so long, it’s because there are so many scandals, official reports and judicial sentences.

--Launebee (talk) 23:14, 22 September 2016 (UTC)

Discussion on edit propositions

To the IP user:

1) No, it doesn’t.

2) It’s not a lie but a mistake. Top 80 considered as top doesn’t make sense neither.

3) I’m just kind by explaining you, this comparison is pointless.

--Launebee (talk) 10:06, 23 September 2016 (UTC)

For further reference in this discussion, please note that my future username is "MePhisto". I have made edits under the following IP addresses: 78.51.193.8 ; 2003:42:2E00:1DB3:C09:D546:69B8:84C7 ; 2003:42:2E34:1105:8F8:10CD:6577:4006 ; 2003:42:2E34:1158:78D3:DDA5:7E1A:D570 ; 2003:42:2E66:436A:98D:9112:7EC7:E8BE ; 213.61.160.117.

Concerning the definition of "to encircle": Looking at the campus map of Sciences Po and at the definitions provided by "The Free Dictionary and "Merriam Webster", I can't understand how anyone could assume that the campus does not "encircle" Boulevard Saint-Germain. To say that the campus "encircles" Boulevard Saint-Germain would only be incorrect, if to "encircle" would require a literal, full geometrical circle of campus buildings. This however is not how the word is commonly used. Perhaps a non-native speaker might get this wrong though (hope this isn't counted as a personal attack).

Concerning the degree structure of Sciences Po: I would recommend to add the content which the user with the IP address 75.156.54.227 has added, but which was deleted by Launabee. MePhisto (talk) 12:59, 23 September 2016 (UTC)

Welcome, MePhisto! :) I tend to agree with you. Much of the content which was added by the unregistered user was actually useful. Some of it could certainly be reframed with a more neutral tone and/or moved to other specific sections of the article as opposed to being inserted directly in the intro (e.g., the ranking details), but it should not be ignored. That said, I also do think that Launebee's contributions on the Sciences Po scandals are useful too. Maybe a sentence about that would be enough in the intro, and we could move the rest to some dedicated section of the article. +1 if you want to start this off! :) — Preceding unsigned comment added by SalimJah (talk • contribs) 13:34, 23 September 2016 (UTC)

As for encircle, third opinion is needed I think. It’s not the most important point.

And Wikipedia is not a catalog.

--Launebee (talk) 15:15, 23 September 2016 (UTC)

I indented your above response for clarity, Launebee. We certainly agree with you that Wikipedia is not a catalog. And we can also find an alternative to describe the location of the campus accurately if you prefer. But focusing on substance here: would you be ready to forget about the irrelevant personal dispute and reconsider your position towards the contributions of the anonymous user, trying to (or, at least, letting other people) build upon them in order to improve the article? That would be laudable on your part! :) It would also benefit the article a lot: seriously, the content which he added was often informative and relevant, even though it could be edited. Cheers! SalimJah (talk) 15:39, 23 September 2016 (UTC)

Your question is irrelevant, I never deleted any content because I have a dispute with the author on other things. --Launebee (talk) 16:54, 23 September 2016 (UTC)

1) a) Unlike most French universities, Sciences Po is a selective University (also known as a "Grande Ecole" in French) focused on the Social Sciences. I would therefore write: "Sciences Po (French pronunciation: ​[sjɑ̃s po]), also known as the Paris Institute of Political Studies (French: "Institut d'Etudes Politiques de Paris"), is a selective University (or "Grande École"[1] in French) focused on the Social Sciences."

1) b) The statement that the campus "encircles Boulevard Saint-Germain" is accurate and precise, given the fact that nowadays, teaching and research activities are equally conducted Rue Saint Guilllaume, Rue des Saints-Pères, Rue de L'Université and (soon) Place Saint Thomas d'Aquin. If you don't like the wording we would need to find something else that conveys the same meaning.

2) a) b) The arguments of IP user 75.156.54.227 for ranking Sciences Po among the best European Universities are sourced and solid. I would write: "Sciences Po is consistently ranked among the best European Universities in the Social Sciences, especially in the field of Politics and International Studies, where it is ranked 4th in the world by the QS World University Rankings 2016." We can then put the details of the rankings in the corresponding sub-section.

3) The fact that Sciences Po was founded by Emile Boutmy in the aftermath of the French defeat in the Franco-Prussian war of 1870 in order to train a new political and intellectual elite is undisputed. This says nothing about whether this goal was eventually achieved. It is useful to have a sentence about the reasons for the foundation of the school in the lede. Also interesting to know that it inspired the model of the London School of Economics. We can work on the wording so that the info is conveyed with a more neutral tone, but those are the facts.

4) The gallery does look nice, but I have no opinion as to whether it should be reduced or expanded. What's the usual consensus on such matters?

5) Which paragraph are you referring to?

6) Comment on the "Scandals" section: I support the inclusion by Launebee of a "scandals" section in the body of the article. The content is sourced, although the write-up could sometimes be more neutral. We need more of that for all University articles! The corresponding sentence in the lede is fine on principle. It could be rewritten with a more neutral tone, however. To be sure, any elite institution in the world has to face criticisms and scandals, at the very least because it tends to attract a lot of attention. I don't see why the Sciences Po case should be treated differently. Therefore, I would modify the sentence as follows: "Sciences Po is seen as an elite institution in France and abroad[5][6][7]. As such, it has been subject to strong criticisms, and also faced a number of scandals.[8][9][10]" SalimJah (talk) 10:16, 28 September 2016 (UTC)

1) a) Sorry but "Sciences Po is not a university" (p. 2), not at all.

b) Have you got a source for your "equally"?

2) It is simply not accurate, sourced nor precise.

3) It has to be neutrally worded. "The school was created in 1972 to improve the training available for public servants and politicians following a series of political catastrophes." (same source) is better.

6) No source, even the non French ones, says it is not seen as an elite institution abroad, in comparison to the universities for example, and the scandals are not linked to the status. No other university faces so regularly such structural scandals.

--Launebee (talk) 17:31, 28 September 2016 (UTC)

Launebee, I am really sorry, but it appears that, in spite of all the sources and arguments that we provide, you simply refuse to recognize a number of facts which IP user 75.156.54.227, MePhisto and myself have been trying to bring to your attention. Could you please explain in which sense your positions reflect a consensus? Let me try one more time:

1) a) Doesn't Sciences Po correspond to this definition?

1) b) Those are the campus buildings. MePhisto provided the map. Why give priority to the Rue des Saints-Guillaume building? The economics department, for instance, is fully located Rue des Saints-Pères (see the bottom of this page), and the doctoral school is located on Boulevard Saint-Germain proper (see the bottom of this page).

2) Then it's on you to demonstrate that the rankings and calculations provided above by IP user 75.156.54.227 are false. You did not do that so far. Simply saying "no this is wrong" is no argument.

3) I'm sincerely happy that you're eventually willing to grant us a little something, but your wording does not convey the significant change that Emile Boutmy intended with the foundation of this institution. Quote (my own translation): "There was a need to 'provide a new head to the people' (those are Emile Boutmy's words) and train a more open, more inventive political elite than the one which had led France to a catastrophy." (See here for the original source in French.) To my mind, the fact that Sciences Po inspired the model of the LSE is also informative from an institutional standpoint.

6) Your sentence is not clear. Did you mean to say that Sciences Po is not seen as an elite institution abroad? I'd put forward the dual degrees and exchange programs that Sciences Po maintains with many top universities in the US and elsewhere as evidence against that claim. I would also bring to your attention that all of the recent scandals that Sciences Po faced and which you sourced are due to its unique governance structure, which provides it with some leeway in terms of finances and management than traditional universities simply don't have. So scandals and status *do* go together. But if you don't like it, we can still have two separate sentences: "Sciences Po is seen as an elite institution in France and abroad[5][6][7] and, as such, has been subject to strong criticisms. Sciences Po also faced a number of scandals.[8][9][10]" SalimJah (talk) 19:30, 28 September 2016 (UTC)

It seems you have a basic misunderstanding of how Wikipedia works. You have to provide source to put an information in an article, and not give your personal interpretation. Sincerely, it’s the first time I ever see here someone saying he wants the article to say its institution is the top in many fields, unless someone else proves the contrary. --Launebee (talk) 22:54, 28 September 2016 (UTC)

For information, here is the link toward the closed incident talk on AN. --Launebee (talk) 21:01, 3 October 2016 (UTC)

After the AN talk, back on content

@NeilN:, @Mr rnddude: and @Jytdog:, could you tell us what do you think of my propositions of editing?

1) a) Remove "Collège universitaire" mentionned twice in the lede. Sciences Po is not a university but tries to add "university" everywhere to have people think it is. This is only a misleading advertisement name with no informative value (on the contrary, it is misleading), so it has not its place in an encyclopedia.

b) Remove the mention of "encircles Boulevard Saint-Germain". It’s not in this street, not encircles it.

The previous paragraph was better: "Its main campus is located rue Saint-Guillaume in the 7th arrondissement. It maintains departments in political science, economics, history, sociology, law, finance, business, communication, social and urban policy, management, and journalism.

2) a) "Sciences Po is ranked 4th in Politics and International Studies by QS 2016 World University Rankings." is more objective than "Sciences Po is ranked 4th in the world for Politics and International Studies in 2016", it’s not a absolute rank but one ranking.

b) Remove "its rankings in law, economics, and sociology were among the top in Europe.", argumentative, the source does not states that.

3) Remove "Founded in response to France's crisis after the Franco-Prussian War and the fall of the Second Empire, the goals of its founders were to train new elites and produce modern knowledge for a new France."NOTRE HISTOIRE". Sciences Po.". Self‑praising from the School, not neutral and no independant source. Put instead "The school was created in 1972 to improve the training available for public servants and politicians following a series of political catastrophes." [3]

4) Shorten or delete the gallery.

5) Deletion of the first paragraph in History section, already explained in the relevant subsection.

--Launebee (talk) 20:54, 3 October 2016 (UTC)

I'm not commenting on content per WP:INVOLVED. --NeilN ^{talk to me} 20:24, 6 October 2016 (UTC)

Protected edit request on 21 October 2016

It has been three weeks that nobody is answering. In short, I request

1) the shortening or the deletion of the gallery

2) the deletion of the paragraph between history and 1872–1945 sections

3) this as the three paragraphs in the middle of the lede:

Its main campus is located rue Saint-Guillaume in the 7th arrondissement. It maintains departments in political science, economics, history, sociology, law, finance, business, communication, social and urban policy, management, and journalism.

Sciences Po is ranked 4th in Politics and International Studies by QS 2016 World University Rankings. Sciences Po is a member of several academic consortia (including APSIA and the College Board).

The school was created in 1972 to improve the training available for public servants and politicians following a series of political catastrophes. --Launebee (talk) 10:23, 21 October 2016 (UTC)

References

 Done all — Martin (MSGJ · talk) 12:20, 21 October 2016 (UTC)

@MSGJ: Thanks! The only thing is that what is now the first sentence of the second paragraph of the lede was meant to be deleted in the request (it wasn’t clear sorry). And could you correct the date please? (It’s 1872 actually). Thanks again. --Launebee (talk) 12:55, 21 October 2016 (UTC)

I have removed that sentence — Martin (MSGJ · talk) 19:38, 21 October 2016 (UTC)

Protected edit request on 21 October 2016

It was created in 1872 not 1972

66.112.227.161 (talk) 13:12, 21 October 2016 (UTC)

Not done: The source (Paul Amis, The integrity of integration: the ethics of exchange student welfare in undergraduate programmes at a French higher education institution, p. 2) says 1972. You will need to be a reliable source stating 1872 if you think this is wrong. Sarahj2107 (talk) 16:26, 21 October 2016 (UTC)

@Sarahj2107:[4] speaks about Sciences Po during the WW2. The 9 is clearly a typing mistake.

Could you also delete the sentence "The Institute is composed of the Collège universitaire for undergraduate studies, six professional schools, research divisions in law, economics, history, political science, and sociology, and the Doctoral School." ? This was accepted earlier, but not done on the article because I did not formulate things clearly enough. Thanks.

--Launebee (talk) 16:56, 21 October 2016 (UTC)

I have updated the date and added a correct source to support. I have not made the other change as there seems to be a lot of discussion above and edit warring. I'm not familiar enough with the details to feel comfortable making that edit through full protection. Sarahj2107 (talk) 17:45, 21 October 2016 (UTC)

@Sarahj2107:@MSGJ:@Launebee: I am wondering about due wiki process here: some of the edits that were required by Launebee and last implemented on this article are linked to a broader discussion that's still ongoing and not yet settled. The article has been protected following an edit war between Launebee and IP user 75.156.54.227. From there, several editors (myself included) have been engaged in a discussion around 6 main points related to the write-up of the article, all of which are documented above. Arguments were presented, and consensus did *not* emerge. We need to converge in the talk page before we request further modifications to the article being made. SalimJah (talk) 14:22, 24 October 2016 (UTC)

@SalimJah: The change of date seemed fairly non-contentious to me given the link proved by Launabee above and the source that I found. If there is disagreement about that, I am happy for it to be changed back. I didn't implement the other change requested because I couldn't see any clear consensus among the discussion above, though I admit I only skimmed it. Sarahj2107 (talk) 14:32, 24 October 2016 (UTC)

@Sarahj2107: I wasn't referring to the change of date, which is non-contentious indeed. We would need some external input in order to reach a suitable balance between Launebee's position and that of the few other editors who have participated in this discussion, however. The above arguments are set, and we haven't been making much progress since then. SalimJah (talk) 16:33, 24 October 2016 (UTC)

Protected edit request on 14 November 2016

Next to "Grande Ecole" (in the overview section), we could write "(roughly the equivalent of a US Ivy-League University)". This edit would help readers put things in context ("grande ecole" does not mean much outside of France). SSStarlastar (talk) 11:09, 14 November 2016 (UTC)

Not done: That would amount to WP:SYNTH unless you have a reliable source for that. Easier to let people follow the blue link to the article where they can find out more. — Martin (MSGJ · talk) 11:37, 15 November 2016 (UTC)

One way to achieve both clarity and precision within the article (since we know that following links is a cost to many users and some just don't do it) would be to say that "Sciences Po [...] is a selective University (also known as a Grande Ecole in French) located in Paris, France." Note, however, that Launebee objected to Sciences Po being a University in the above discussion, even though I don't see how this position can be maintained given the very definition of a University. SalimJah (talk) 13:30, 15 November 2016 (UTC)

Okay  Done — Martin (MSGJ · talk) 08:41, 16 November 2016 (UTC)

How did Launebee's proposals get accepted when there was a consensus against all of them? (see above). It does not seem like the editor who accepted them read the discussion. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.156.54.227 (talk) 02:35, 18 November 2016 (UTC)

Protected edit request on 18 November 2016

Replace ''{{PDFlink|[http://www.cne-evaluation.fr/WCNE_pdf/IEPParis_2005.pdf Rapport d'évaluation de l'Institut d'études politiques de Paris]}}'' with [http://www.cne-evaluation.fr/WCNE_pdf/IEPParis_2005.pdf Rapport d'évaluation de l'Institut d'études politiques de Paris] per this TFD. Primefac (talk) 13:24, 18 November 2016 (UTC)

Done — Martin (MSGJ · talk) 11:58, 20 November 2016 (UTC)

Post by IP 64.114.29.204

I propose the changes made by Martin on 21 October, which were proposed by Launebee on 18 September 2016, and from reading the entire discussion, voted down resoundingly, be reversed. No one agreed with any of Launebee's proposed changes; every participant in the discussion was, in fact, opposed to his proposals. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 64.114.29.204 (talk • contribs)

Edit request on 20 November 2016

The mention of Sciences Po as a university is absolutely inaccurate.

Source: p. 2 : "Sciences Po is not a university."

--Launebee (talk) 00:33, 20 November 2016 (UTC)

Not done for now: as you know all changes need to be discussed and agreed on first — Martin (MSGJ · talk) 11:59, 20 November 2016 (UTC)

Ok, sorry! --Launebee (talk) 16:33, 20 November 2016 (UTC)

Sciences Po: a university?

Former discussion

The mention of Sciences Po as a university is absolutely inaccurate. And comparing SP to Ivy League universities is even more nonsense.

Source: p. 2 : "Sciences Po is not a university."

The article on Grandes Écoles repeats several times: Grandes écoles is a parrallel system from universities.

Some say it’s a university but it’s a confusion with higher education. On the article on universities, you see that academic freedom is the core aspect of universities. And indeed, in France, academic freedom of universty professors is procected by the constitution. However, the professors at Sciences Po don’t have at all the status of "professeur des universités", and thus have no constitutional academic freedom. They don’t even have a legal academic freedom, like university associate professors, they have no legal academic freedom because they are not university professors, because SP is not at all a university.

The web definition given is etheir wrong, or unprecise, or at least not good for France. Let me remind you that SP gives no state bachelor, master or doctorate, but only Sciences Po ones. There is no university giving state diplomas here.

You have here the official list of the higher education institutions : SP is not among the universities.

Moreover, you can look at the official report on SP: it deals several times of its relationships with "the French universities", and states for example "autres établissements d’enseignement supérieur, et notamment les université" ("other higher education institutions, notably the universities"), p. III.

When some people speak of a university, it’s to be simple for people who don’t know the French system, but Wikipedia is an encyclopedia, and has to be accurate.

--Launebee (talk) 16:33, 20 November 2016 (UTC)

A few things:

1. If you don't "like" the dictionary definition which I provided, could you point us to another definition of what a University is which would disqualify Sciences Po in this respect?

2. This is a primary source, and the text is from an undergrad who went in a one-year exchange program with Sciences Po. It should not be given a large weight in this argument.

3. It is true that Sciences Po funds additional professorships through its own budget ("FNSP professors"), and does not only hire through the centralized French system ("PU professors"). Here is the example of the econ dept faculty, which is the one which has the highest proportion of FNSP professors. We can see that they also have many traditional "PU" professors. Either way, full professors enjoy the same level of academic freedom, irrespective of how their salary is funded.

4. Sciences Po does award bachelor, masters and PhD degrees. Those are, of course, all recognized by the French State.

5. If you search for "Institut d'Etudes Politiques de Paris" in your above list, you'll see that Sciences Po is actually featured there. SalimJah (talk) 13:59, 22 November 2016 (UTC)

1 Here, it’s wikipedia, not wikictionary. You can see the articles on university and on Grandes écoles and they are clear: it’s different.

2 SP has some university professors (PU), but because they were before in universities, and usually have the agrégation, which is a exam in universities. You give actually one more proof that it’s different, because they are "University Professors) and Fondation nationale des sciences politiques professors. And SP gives for example "bachelors" in English in the original text, not "licences". It’s of course officially recognized but has another status, in another part of the Education Code.

3 Yes, in on the webpage, but on the list "Grands établissements", different from the list "Universités". You have the report from an official agency constantly talking about the relationships of SP with other institutions like universities. Just look at the layout of the Education Code:

Livre VII : Les établissements d'enseignement supérieur

Titre Ier : Les établissements publics à caractère scientifique, culturel et professionnel

Chapitre II : Les universités

Chapitre VII : Les grands établissements

It’s simply in different chapters.

You have the whole lists under the name "classification of" higher education institutions. There is the list of universities, without SP, and the list of Grands établissements, with SP.

--Launebee (talk) 19:03, 23 November 2016 (UTC)

From the above discussion, it appears that your positions do not reflect consensus. When that's the case, I politely and modestly advise that you learn to compromise. The sentence as it stands is accurate: the main feature of Grandes écoles is that, unlike traditional French universities, they are *selective*. This is what matters for our purposes here. If people want to learn about all the complexities of the French higher education / research system, they will follow the link. SalimJah (talk) 19:35, 24 November 2016 (UTC)

At this point I want to voice my support of SalimJah 's position. For the purpose of this article, it's reasonable and accurate to describe Sciences Po as a "university". In the given context the term "university" should be used in a functional way, not in the strict sense of French administrative law. This method is also used for articles on German "Fachhochschulen", which are also not "universities" under German administrative law. Nonetheless, English articles on Wikipedia describe these institutions as "universities" - and rightfully so! "Fachhochschulen" are functionally "universities" and therefore any other definition in an English article would not bring clarity but reduce it. If readers are interested in highly detailed legal distinctions, they will read the articles on Grands établissements or Fachhochschule. MePhisto (talk) 09:32, 25 November 2016 (UTC)

SalimJah, wikipedia is a place of knowledge, not of average publicity. The consensus rule does not mean we have to "compromise" between biased opinions but to find together the truth.

Yes, let the reader decide if Grandes Écoles are universities or not. Perhaps the "Fachhochschulen" page needs to be changed then, but I don’t know the matter enough to do it myself.

--Launebee (talk) 12:46, 26 November 2016 (UTC)

Comments

Should the mention of Sciences Po as a "university" be removed? Launebee (talk) 12:46, 26 November 2016 (UTC)

Survey

• Support, for the following reasons:

1) All official sources are dealings with SP as an entity separated from universities, ie:

a) Report of the official agency rating higher education institutions: it deals several times of its relationships with "the French universities", and states for example "autres établissements d’enseignement supérieur, et notamment les université" ("other higher education institutions, notably the universities"), p. III.

b) The Education Code, creating universities and Grands établissements in different chapters:

Livre VII : Les établissements d'enseignement supérieur

Titre Ier : Les établissements publics à caractère scientifique, culturel et professionnel

Chapitre II : Les universités

Chapitre VII : Les grands établissements

c) The official list under the name "classification of" higher education institutions. There is the list of universities, without SP, and the list of Grands établissements, with SP.

2) SP has no specific thing that only universities have.

a) their professors are not university professors thus have constitutionally protected freedom (Constitutional Council, Decision only concerning university professors) nor even legally p. 2 Official commentary of another decision saying "enseignants-chercheurs, – professeurs d’université et maîtres de conférences", only from universities then.

b) they don’t deliver any state degree. They "bachelor", "master" and PhD are in English in the original version. It’s not for example state bachelor "licence" but SP "bachelor".

A newspaper studying it says clearly "diplôme créant une sortie d'études à bac+3... sans pour autant rechercher le grade de licence" ("degree after 3-years studies, but without the bachelor degree") or that the "bachelor" (original) of SP is "non reconnu en France" (not recognised in France).

SP says itself "diploma of bachelor level" or "of masters level", but not actual bachelor or master.

3) There are sources stating that they are not universities.

a) "Sciences Po which, as it is not a university"

b) p. 2 : "Sciences Po is not a university."

Some newspapers are dealing with "SP University", but here, it’s an encyclopedia, we have to be accurate, and not simplify for those who don’t know the French system, to the extent of making false statement like these journalists are. This is also because SP presents itself as a university (it’s why it names its diplomas "bachelor", "master" and PhD too), but it’s only advertisement.

4) The users against this change only focus on SP. If we really want to say that Grandes écoles are universities, we should let the SP page alone and discuss this on the Grandes Écoles talk page. But personally, I think we should clearly state "Grandes écoles are not universities but parallel institutions".

5) At least, we should consider that there is a doubt, and let the reader decide if "Grandes Écoles" (or "Grands établissements") are universities or not. For now, the dedicate page clearly says that it’s a parallel system, and it’s simply the truth.

Launebee (talk) 12:46, 26 November 2016 (UTC)

• oppose -- This discussion seems like a tempest in a teapot over a naming question. Yes, schools like École Polytechnique and the École Normale supérieure are generally listed as universities in international comparisons (cf. here), despite their parallel status as Grandes Écoles (meaning -- most importantly -- that they have a "concours d'entrée" (and that teachers are detached from Éducation Nationale and pay separate retirement funds). Following the good example at École Polytechnique, it seems to me that first mention should be of an institution of higher learning and subsequent references can use the internationally accepted "approximation" university. SashiRolls (talk) 13:12, 26 November 2016 (UTC)

To me, there is no place for "approximation", as you say, in an encyclopedia. An encyclopedia needs true statements, not approximations

Moreover, the École Polytechnique page is an advertisement page, not a encyclopedia page. I just deleted in the lede the POV "A small and very elitist university" --Launebee (talk) 16:36, 26 November 2016 (UTC)

Right, but institution-of-higher-learning-but-not-an-université is rather unwieldy. "University" is a nice approximation of "université" that abstracts away from the French Education Department's definitions for this particular institution-of-higher-learning-but-not-an-université.SashiRolls (talk) 16:59, 26 November 2016 (UTC)

• oppose, for the 5 reasons stated in response to Launebee's question at the beginning of this thread. SalimJah (talk) 16:44, 28 November 2016 (UTC)

Threaded discussion

Good to know: SalimJah has worked with or for SP ("us") and perhaps still is, and that both Salim Jah and MePhisto are single-purpose account. --Launebee (talk) 12:46, 26 November 2016 (UTC)

Launabee, since you have been complaining about "personal attacks" against you (Such as pointing out that you have continuously added positive content to the article on Panthéon-Assas, while deleting positive content on other faculties and adding negative content), I find it confusing that you are trying to discredit other authors. As you said: It's about adding accurate and meaningful content, not who contributed the content. Also, I have created this account because you requested me to do so. Since then the article on Sciences Po has been the only one where I have been contributing. However, it is not the first article I am contributing to and not the last one. Please try to adhere to your own standards. MePhisto (talk) 12:16, 28 November 2016 (UTC)

Also, your critique seems especially bizarre, when considering that on the one hand you refuse to accept content on the offered degrees at Sciences Po (you deem this information to be "unencyclopedical"), while you add just this type of information(!) to the article on Panthéon-Assas (Revision as of 13:34, 30 August 2016). — Preceding unsigned comment added by MePhisto (talk • contribs)

+1! This talk page has been growing exponentially as people are bringing facts to your attention that you simply refuse to take into consideration. We stick to those facts, assume good faith, and stay away from personal attacks. On the other hand, you've started an edit war with an IP which resulted in this article being protected and in the newbie leaving the site, accused me of attacking you personally on AN when I was merely trying to restore a positive work dynamic, and put my good faith in question on several occasions without any factual evidence. You also refuse to compromise when a consensus emerges against any of your positions, drawing people into endless arguments until they eventually give up. By doing so, you're preventing any progress ever being made. Worse, you're hurting the wider community as you impose a negative atmosphere. I have nothing against you, nor do I have a personal agenda for myself, but I quietly ask you to reconsider your behavior in this light, so that we could eventually move forward altogether. SalimJah (talk) 17:29, 28 November 2016 (UTC)

There is no personal attack here, I did not say you are not having positions in good faith, I just wanted the other users to be aware of this. And single‑purpose account does not mean single‑purpose user. --Launebee (talk) 19:00, 29 November 2016 (UTC)

Moreover, MePhisto, what you are saying is false. I am continously adding positive content on French universities webpage, and, as you know but seem to refuse to acknowledge it, I addded a good ranking of Sciences Po too. It is not a question of positive or negative but of accurate information. --Launebee (talk) 20:18, 29 November 2016 (UTC)

Launabee, you "just wanted other users to be aware of this" – why? Naturally your statement suggested that we weren't editing in good faith, which would discredit our submissions to the article. There's no point arguing around this. Moreover, your conflicting and derogatory statements fall into a larger pattern: As I have pointed out, on the one hand you have been pushing positive sounding content for the article on Panthéon-Assas (Just one example: https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Panth%C3%A9on-Assas_University&diff=708224550&oldid=708219760), while on the other hand you introduced a "scandals" section for Sciences Po, claimed that Pantheon-Sorbonne "has no campus" and deleted vast amounts of information on degrees and admissions at HEC Paris (These are just a few examples). You say information on degree structures is "unencyclopedical", but insert this kind of information to the article on Assas.. The talk page on Pantheon-Assas shows that you have a history of causing protest to your editing. Please reconsider your approach on Wikipedia. I believe that critical voices like yours are very important for encyclopedias, so that we can have checks and balances. However, critical editing should be done universally and reasonably. MePhisto (talk) 23:33, 29 November 2016 (UTC)

May I humbly suggest that 1 hour of research on the Haitian elections in the Francophone press might be a more useful endeavor for Wikipedia than bickering about what "some might have said" are "snooty", big skoolz? ^^ (I hope this isn't a BLP violation, but I don't think schools are people yet.) SashiRolls (talk) 23:51, 29 November 2016 (UTC)

Yes, I totally agree – this whole thing has become ridiculous and is getting out of hand. However, where one user starts adding positive sounding content to the article on one institution and a wave of derogatory content on peer institutions, editors should be alert. And when many of this users deletions are unnecessary and the user contradicts his own standards, there should be protest on Wikipedia. This website shapes public perception. If we like it or not, universities are brands with reputations and biased content can have real consequences (notwithstanding the fact that accuracy on Wikipedia should be an end in itself). MePhisto (talk) 08:32, 30 November 2016 (UTC)

I won’t answer to false statements on me biased on my choices of editing, I already told you why it’s simply false, but you still repeat the same things. Yes, I deleted a vandalism on Panthéon‑Assas, but I also added the good rankings of other universities, and of SP (not a university). I rebuilt the University of Lorraine page, the Aix-Marseille was already complete, other pages too.

On content, you can say this is getting ridiculous, but meanwhile, I bring sources saying that "Sciences Po which, as it is not a university". --Launebee (talk) 18:03, 30 November 2016 (UTC)

As for Pantheon-Sorbonne with no campus, it was a mistake I clearly acknowledged right away. [5]. --Launebee (talk) 18:11, 30 November 2016 (UTC)

Edit request for discussion

Following the current text at the end of the lead, a simple factual statement would better serve this article than the vague "there has been criticism" sentence. I would suggest a first simple edit to the end of the lead, which requires moving the incompletely formatted reference 8 as described below.

<ref name="humanite.fr">[http://www.humanite.fr/politique/sages-oligarchie-et-pacte-budgetaire-504397]</ref>

This would be wise anyway because this article does not support the part of the sentence it cites, there is only one passing reference to Sciences Po in the entire article which is about the Conseil Constitutionnel and the Budgetary Pact. Rien à voir.

Proposed addition: what the text does say:

In September 2012, nine of the twelve counselors on the Conseil Constitutionnel had attended Sciences Po.

References

comment: This should be consensual as it 1) accurately represents the article, and 2) introduces wiki-text that should be OK with those who wish to criticize and those who wish to promote the school: seems like a useful, inert fact.

Also, I would suggest adding {{reflist|30em}} to the References section :)

I take it this template signs for me, so I'll just say I appreciate the time of whoever is looking into this. Best, SashiRolls (talk) 14:35, 30 November 2016 (UTC)

Not done: please establish a consensus for this alteration before using the {{edit protected}} template. — Martin (MSGJ · talk) 14:42, 30 November 2016 (UTC)

Panthéon-Assas University‎

Hello,

I know that it's probably not the best place to deal with that (the problem is larger than the Sciences Po article), but it would be good if someone could have a look at the article about Panthéon-Assas University‎. I have 30.000+ contributions on the French Wikipedia, but WP:RAA seems to work in a very specific way here.

In France Science-po and Assas are known to be rivals [6], and it feels like this fight is happening here now, as it was happening a few month ago on the French Wikipedia.

• On the French Wikipedia, a SPA was created on the 1st of Decembre 2015, and then started disruptive contributions about the Assas article (false claims about ranking, backed by a shady company... in order to promote that university)., and was blocked for a few weeks
• On the English Wikipedia, Launebee started to contribute on the very same day. I let you check by yourself what Launebee wrote on the Panthéon-"the top law school in France"-Assas article.

@SalimJah and MePhisto: you should definitely have a look at the Talk:Panthéon-Assas University. Launebee has had the same behaviour there. XIIIfromTOKYO (talk) 18:18, 30 November 2016 (UTC)