Talk:Novak Djokovic

ATP WT

"he has won the ATP World Tour Finals five times (four of which he won consecutively, which is an Open Era record)" Actually it's an absolute record, since Open Era began before ATP World Tour. Alex. 93.35.1.140 (talk) 21:16, 9 April 2016‎ (UTC)

 Done. Vanjagenije (talk) 15:04, 18 July 2016 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 8 May 2016

Novak now has 29 masters 1000, no longer tied with Rafa. (Nadal page shoul b updated too.) 98.204.228.159 (talk) 19:08, 8 May 2016 (UTC)

Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made. — Music1201 ^talk 01:00, 9 May 2016 (UTC)

 Done This was done. Vanjagenije (talk) 15:05, 18 July 2016 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 9 May 2016

Please change: Djokovic is tied with Rafael Nadal for an all-time record 28 Masters 1000 series titles

to

Djokovic stands alone with an all-time record 29 Masters 1000 series titles

Because of (http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/tennis/36240820)

Ritesh Sonawala (talk) 05:03, 9 May 2016 (UTC)

 Done.--Soundwaweserb (talk) 06:25, 9 May 2016 (UTC)

Marko Djokovic

Novak's brother Marko is not an active tennis player. That shall be mentioned in the article.--178.223.78.167 (talk) 10:39, 23 June 2016 (UTC)

Why is that important for the article about Novak? Vanjagenije (talk) 15:28, 26 June 2016 (UTC)

Revision of detail needed

The section titled "Coaching, diet and personal team" says,"Djokovic made another addition to his team – nutritionist Igor Četojević who additionally focuses on Chinese medicine and does acupuncture" and then goes on to claim that "He discovered the tennis player suffers from gluten intolerance and cannot eat gluten, purging it from his diet." The problem with this is that it has not been mentioned how that diagnosis was made, especially because acupuncturists are typically not trained to make medical diagnoses of gluten allergy. I found this report which tells me that applied kinesiology was used to make that diagnosis, but I wonder if anyone has a better source to cite from. Applied kinesiology is not a medically approved method of making a diagnosis for gluten sensitivity. My concern is that this incomplete piece of information about Djokovic's "diagnosed" gluten intolerance might mislead readers, which is not what an encyclopedia should do. Knaveknight (talk) 18:58, 27 June 2016 (UTC)

There is more here and a lot at the Wall Street Journal article. Fyunck(click) (talk) 19:39, 27 June 2016 (UTC)

Thanks, but I'm afraid neither source mentions the name of the actual technique used by his nutritionist to detect gluten sensitivity. The WSJ source mentions only ELISA, but even that is not known to be a reliable method for diagnosis of gluten sensitivity. The real question, I think, is whether Novak Djokovic actually has gluten intolerance. Knaveknight (talk) 11:04, 1 July 2016 (UTC)

I don't know what you want. It mentions two tests used by Dr. Igor Cetojevic to determine Djokovic's problem. They may not be reliable, but it's what was used. Fyunck(click) (talk) 09:14, 7 July 2016 (UTC)

I have just added that the diagnosis was made using applied kinesiology. I hope that's okay. Knaveknight (talk) 12:53, 9 July 2016 (UTC)

Infobox image

There was an image in the infobox that was pretty good... a profile upper body shot. I'm not sure why it was changed to a full body shadowed face image and then another weird faced full body image. I guess the perfect shot is an upper body head shot looking to the left instead of the right, but if there's consensus to change, let's see if we can find a better one than these weird images. Fyunck(click) (talk) 09:40, 7 July 2016 (UTC)

This is better image [1]? What are you want?--Soundwaweserb (talk) 09:42, 7 July 2016 (UTC)

It means you can change the images but others can't. ：）--Chinyen Lu (talk) 09:44, 7 July 2016 (UTC)

That image is fine...but I wish he was looking the other direction. Fyunck(click) (talk)

Novak's mother

Novak'a mother is of Croatian origin, her family originates from Vinkovci in Croatia. We have two new sources about it Nikola Pilić Interview and Srdjan Djokovic Interview. I know that some people difficult to accept the fact but should not be censorship on Wikipedia. --Suzichi (talk) 22:43, 10 July 2016 (UTC)

She is not of Croatian origin, please read Talk:Novak Djokovic/Archive 4#Nationality and Talk:Novak Djokovic/Archive 4#"Croats of Serbia" category. 5 min. 36 sec. Novak father talking about his family (including Novak's mother): We are Serb, and we always be Serbs no matter where we went. Just stop with lies and stop with croatian nationalist propaganda.--Soundwaweserb (talk) 05:55, 11 July 2016 (UTC)

These are old talks, now we have two new sources. We have sources in Slovenian, Croatian and Serbian language. Show me where it says that his mother is Serbian. His father is talking about Novak's roots not about his mother. You are privatized this article this is not Serbian wikipedia. You trying to cover up the truth.--Suzichi (talk) 08:53, 11 July 2016 (UTC)

You have nothing. Relevant references? No. Reference on english? No. Neutral reference? No. Please, again, stop with lies, and stop with aggressive nationalist propaganda, thank you.--Soundwaweserb (talk) 15:53, 11 July 2016 (UTC)

Novak says: ...my mother is Croatian...

Nikola Pilić says: You may not know, but his (Novak) mother is Croatian.

Srdan Djoković says: The truth is that my wife is Croatian...

Soundwaweserb you're funny, and don't understand Wikipedia. On Wikipedia discussing with the facts. What are for you neutral and relevant references? You're talking about something that you do not know. And again and again the same of course with the insults. --Suzichi (talk) 22:11, 11 July 2016 (UTC)

No, you are insult us, with all lies. She never said about her nationality, never said that she is Croatian. Nobody talked about her nationality. No relevant references, no reference on english, no neutral reference. Just stop man, she is Serbian, born in Serbia (Belgrade), and that's a fact. Deal with it and move on.--Soundwaweserb (talk) 22:43, 11 July 2016 (UTC)

OMG! This becomes painfully, how much ignorance. Her husband says she is Croatian. References in Slovenian, Croatian and Serbian language, are for you neutral reference. "Nobody talked about her nationality." Are you reading what I am writing?. "she is Serbian" Where does it say? Show me. --Suzichi (talk) 00:06, 12 July 2016 (UTC)

Suzichi, you talk about some sources, but where have you presented them? I dont see them in your first comment. FkpCascais (talk) 17:14, 12 July 2016 (UTC)

Suzichi here's one secondary source from previous discussions that can help you.

Novak says: ...My mother in a Croat from Vinkovci, and father Monteneigran...[2]

Searcher11 (talk) 17:29, 12 July 2016 (UTC)

What? Are you serious? Slobodna dalmacija is the yellow press, irrelevant source. Wikipedia does not deal with lies and sensationalism, and all your and Suzichi references are irrelevant.--Soundwaweserb (talk) 05:42, 13 July 2016 (UTC)

No. The source is so relevant that I won't waste a second on your smear. I don't have feelings either way. Seeing you and others getting nervous so much because you realize that you are wrong, even if you manage to push your view, is enough for me. Searcher11 (talk) 16:56, 13 July 2016 (UTC)

Soundwaweserb for you Nikola Pilic and Srdjan Djokovic are liars? Why would Srdjan Djokovic said that his wife a Croat? Also please do fix article about Slobodna Dalmacija and prove that the tabloids. You have no a single source that contradicts my evidence. --Suzichi (talk) 21:14, 13 July 2016 (UTC)

| Slobodna Dalmacija is a prominent Croatian daily and that's well known. Suzichi don't fall into his "guilty until proven innocent" scheme. Burden of proof for his claim is on him and he has provided nothing but a smear. It's a long way to prove that a prominent Croatian daily has faked an interview. The source is so credible that I see no point into searching for further sources, especially when it stands unchallenged against a few smears. Bring this source to non biased editors with a rfc and hope that enough non-biased editors join to outvote this 4 biased Serbian editors that I see here. They won't have sources but they will be aggressive with smears and personal accusations. That sadly works sometimes, especially if you get drawn into answering every smear. Just put the sources forward, they speak for themselves. Searcher11 (talk) 21:31, 13 July 2016 (UTC)

All references are not valid. This is the essence. Do not twist my words, I did not call them liars, they did not give statements about shes nationality. Why it is so important a nation of his mother? Give me one reason? Why? I think, your intentions are malicious. She is born in Serbia, Srdjan state is that she is Serbian like all family 5 min. 36 sec crucial reference. She never talk about nation, never. Those are facts. It is obvious that you are trolls, from now on I will ignore such users like you.--Soundwaweserb (talk) 21:47, 13 July 2016 (UTC)

No, we are not using primary sources on Wikipedia. Wikipedia:No original research Searcher11 (talk) 22:10, 13 July 2016 (UTC)

Interesting, nationality Novak's mother is not important. What about Viktor Troicki and tens of thousands others nationality? Yes, she is born in Serbia as Monica Seles so what. You're not telling the truth about youtube source. There is no mention the whole family and especially the mother.--Suzichi (talk) 21:21, 14 July 2016 (UTC)

Novak Djokovic celebrates Slava Sveti Arhandjeo Mihael that is connected with middle age Serbian nobility, if he would have croatian or montenegrin origin he would not celebrate that, taht is a tradition celebrated ONLY by the Serbs her is the source that describes what SLAVA is https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slava ,ergo he is a Serbian and has a serbian origin , that is an evidence that prooves a lot more than some source of Slobodna Dalmacija , newspapers that are spreading lies and recently had a great problems during the EUROPEAN FOOTBALL championship I DO NOT UNDERSTAND how can someone even recognize this newspapers as a relevant source when even an english wiki is writing what kind of a newspapers are.... In May 2005 Slobodna Dalmacija was reprivatised again. This time it was sold to Europapress Holding, making it a sister paper of Jutarnji list. In 2014 it was bought by Marijan Hanžeković along with EPH and became more of a right-wing newspaper. There have been situations where left oriented journalist were forbidden to write what they want (such as Damir Pilić in 2015) and some were fired (such as Boris Dežulović). https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slobodna_Dalmacija, and here is another source that claims that Djokovic is a Serb , in interview for FIGARO HE SAYS I am proud to be a Serb , here is the source http://www.b92.net/sport/rolandgarros2016/vesti.php?yyyy=2016&mm=05&dd=19&nav_id=1133434 , so this discusion has no sence at all 176.6.16.87 (talk) 08:50, 2 August 2016 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 11 July 2016

Under career statistics 2011, the sum of matches won and loss should be 26-1 and not 25-1 61.12.40.177 (talk) 09:53, 11 July 2016 (UTC)

 Not done 25–1 is correct. 7–0, 4–1, 7–0, 7–0 adds up to 25–1. Remember that walkovers count for nothing. Fyunck(click) (talk) 10:06, 11 July 2016 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 12 July 2016

Sanja263 (talk) 00:19, 12 July 2016 (UTC) can you change the picture

Can you specify which picture would be better? Gap9551 (talk) 00:28, 12 July 2016 (UTC)

RfC Novak's mother

Should in the article stand nationality of Novak's mother? Djokovic was born on 22 May 1987 in Belgrade, SR Serbia, Yugoslavia, to parents Srđan and Dijana (née Žagar). be changed to: "Djokovic was born on 22 May 1987 in Belgrade, SR Serbia, Yugoslavia, to parents Srđan and Dijana (née Žagar). His father is Montenegrin and his mother Croatian from Vinkovci--Suzichi (talk) 12:02, 16 July 2016 (UTC)

• Yes This is a notable fact. Although Novak Djokovic is Serbian by nationality, he is half Croatian and half Montenegrin by ethnicity.

Here's a secondary source [3], an interview Djokovic gave some time ago to prominent Croatian daily, Slobodna Dalmacija where Novak Djokovovic has himself said: "My mother is a Croat, although born in Belgrade...father is Montenegrin.". Also, a note for other editors, the above discussion. Searcher11 (talk) 14:14, 16 July 2016 (UTC) — Searcher11 (talk • contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic.

• No She is not of Croatian origin, and please read Talk:Novak Djokovic/Archive 4#Nationality and Talk:Novak Djokovic/Archive 4#"Croats of Serbia" category. She never said nothing about her nationality, never said that she is Croatian. Nobody talked about her nationality. No relevant references, no reference on english, no neutral reference. 5 min. 36 sec. Novak father talking about his family (including Novak's mother): We are Serb, and we always be Serbs no matter where we went.--Soundwaweserb (talk) 14:41, 16 July 2016 (UTC)

The RfC doesn't concern nationality. Also, we are not using primary sources on Wikipedia. Wikipedia:No original research. Only published sources can be used. Thus, your complaints are not based in sources. You and some others have expressed your bias in the previous discussion, which led to this RfC in hope that more non-biased editors join than there is you.Searcher11 (talk) 15:05, 16 July 2016 (UTC)

She is not of Croatian origin, and that is a fact. His father is Serbian, and that is a fact. Also, therefore can not be in article something that is not true. Wikipedia deals with facts, not rumors. There is no consensus for your request.--Soundwaweserb (talk) 15:25, 16 July 2016 (UTC)

I'd rather believe a published secondary source and Novak Djokovic than your claim. You better find sources, secondary published sources.Searcher11 (talk) 21:15, 16 July 2016 (UTC)

• Yes This is an important fact what we have in the tens of thousands of articles. For example in an article about Jennifer Aniston we have information "her mother's other ancestry includes English, Irish, Scottish, and a small amount of Greek". Serbian tennis player Viktor Troicki has information on his origin "He is of Russian, French and Serbian origin."... This is where the censorship by a group of editors. To them it is unacceptable that in the article stated information about Novak's parents. We have clear facts, even interviewing the family:
  • In first source Novak says: ...My mother in a Croat from Vinkovci, and father Monteneigran... Croatian language,
  • second source Nikola Pilić says: You may not know, but his (Novak) mother is Croatian. Slovenian language
  • third source Srdan Djoković (Novak's father) says: The truth is that my wife is Croatian...Serbian language--Suzichi (talk) 06:51, 17 July 2016 (UTC)
• No - right now it says nothing about the nationality of either parent because it's not notable enough to do so. That's how it should stay. It doesn't really matter if Djokovic's parents are Serbian, Croatian, Russian or Mexican since this article is about Novak, not his parents or grandparents. They are named and that is plenty. And if it's even remotely controversial then it's even more reason to keep it out. Fyunck(click) (talk) 09:00, 17 July 2016 (UTC)
• Yes Novak Djokovic is a Serbian tennis player of Croat-Monteneigran orign. This is certainly interesting info and since he himself had confirmed that, there's no reason to keep it out of article. Sure that some Serbian editors will hear none of it, but Novak's word is a bit more credible. 82.214.103.5 (talk) 07:34, 19 July 2016 (UTC) • 82.214.103.5 has made few or no other edits outside this topic.

As I said in this post: they won't have sources but they will be aggressive with smears and personal accusations. Suzichi, you can add "Novak Djokovic is a Serbian tennis player of Croat-Monteneigran orign" (as the ip suggested) to be added to the lead in your request, although the original request is fine, as many articles have it stated that way. This form completely avoids their already bogus complaints. Their intentions were obvious from the past discussion so there's no point into discussing with them. Hope that enough non-partial editors join since there are few of them more in line to jump in as necessary (for instance 23 editor who had already deleted source I had posted [4]). I'm done with this rfc. My final advice to you Suzichi is to drop the stick if they manage in their intentions. Unfortunately, that's how wikipedia works sometimes. Searcher11 (talk) 17:45, 19 July 2016 (UTC)

• No - per Fyunck. FkpCascais (talk) 10:47, 19 July 2016 (UTC)
  • @FkpCascais: Fyunck(click)'s "because it's not notable enough to do so" is an invalid rationale; WP:Notability applies only to whether a subject may have its/their own article, and has nothing to do with whether it/they can be mentioned at all in an another article. There are better reasons to oppose this.  — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽^ʌⱷ҅_ᴥⱷ^ʌ≼  13:30, 1 August 2016 (UTC)
    • I really wasn't using the word "notable" in a "WP:Notable" sense. I was using it in a more general sense as it being trivial. I do think you are more spot-on with your "ethnicity war-baiting" comment. Fyunck(click) (talk) 19:02, 1 August 2016 (UTC)
      • The thing here is that Djoković is a Serbian tennis player notable because of his sports archivements. What we are facing here is that some Crotiaan editors found some sources saying Djokovic's mother ancestors are from a city found nowadays in Croatia. So, they want to use that to say Djokovic is somehow Croatian. Pure nationalistic POV-pushing. A dead-end. FkpCascais (talk) 23:01, 1 August 2016 (UTC)
• No his parents are both Serbian (one born in N. Kosovo and the other in Belgrade). The genealogical lineage is completely irrelevant. 23 editor (talk) 15:03, 21 July 2016 (UTC)
• Comment - This is a complex issue with several sub-issues:

• First, let's not confuse nationality with ethnicity. They are two very different things. Saying that "Djokovic's mother is Croatian" is very different from saying "Djokovic's mother is of Serbian nationality with Croatian ethnicity." Let's respect that many people have really strong views on both of these.
• Second, is it sensible to mention a person's ethnicity in a biography article? I believe it is. One's ethnicity is an important aspect of one's identity, just as one's nationality, birthplace, or familial ties might be. Sometimes, one's ethnicity (or nationality, or familial ties...) is necessary to tell the complete story. Some have argued against inclusion of one's ethnicity because "it isn't notable", but that's not how I understand Wikipedia's notability guideline to apply. WP:NOTEWORTHY states that "The criteria applied to article creation/retention are not the same as those applied to article content. The notability guidelines do not apply to article or list content (with the exception that some lists restrict inclusion to notable items or people). Content coverage within a given article or list (i.e. whether something is noteworthy enough to be mentioned in the article or list) is governed by the principle of due weight and other content policies." So, that leads me to a discussion of due weight...
• Third, if ethnicity were to be included in an article, how much should be said? WP:BALASPS states: "An article should not give undue weight to any aspects of the subject but should strive to treat each aspect with a weight appropriate to the weight of that aspect in the body of reliable sources on the subject." For most individuals, I think that ethnicity is a pretty minor aspect of the topic, and I believe this is true for Novak Djokovic. In a very short article, it probably does not justify inclusion. However, his article is quite long (as it should be), and there are many minor aspects mentioned in his article. So, I think a reasonable "due weight" treatment of his ethnicity suggests that it should cover no more than one or two sentences, depending on phrasing.
• Fourth, should it be mentioned in the lead? No, it isn't important enough. WP:BLPLEAD states that "Ethnicity, religion, or sexuality should generally not be in the lead unless it is relevant to the subject's notability." Since Djokovic's notability is clearly due to his tennis career, his ethnicity does not merit mention in the lead.
• Fifth, does it matter if it is controversial? I cannot find anything in the Wikipedia guidelines to suggest that we should avoid mentioning controversial details. On the contrary, WP:DUE reminds us to "fairly represent all significant viewpoints that have been published by reliable sources, in proportion to the prominence of each viewpoint in the published, reliable sources." So, if we had a balanced number of sources saying that his mother's ethnicity is Serbian versus sources that say his mother's ethnicity is Croatian, then both viewpoints could be mentioned. (It would be different if 40 sources claim one thing, and only one claims the opposite.)
• Sixth, do we have clear reliable sources in this case? I honestly do not know. IF we had clearly reliable sources (as defined by WP:RELIABLE) to establish that his mother was Croatian, then I would support mentioning it in the article in a single sentence outside of the lead. If we don't, then I don't support mentioning it. For me, it hinges on this single issue: are the sources reliable? When I look at the three non-English sources mentioned, I simply am not familiar enough with those websites to know if they are reliable or not.

Saskoiler (talk) 22:22, 24 July 2016 (UTC)

• No, this article is about Novak, and there is no shown notability of his mother's ethnicity, therefore it should not be included. StudiesWorld (talk) 10:11, 30 July 2016 (UTC)
• Yes BUT only if reliable sources can be found that state the mother's nationality. If not, then just the father's nationality. A person's heritage is relevant in their bio and should always be included when reliable sources can be found. SW3 5DL (talk) 00:12, 31 July 2016 (UTC)
• No, per Soundwaweserb's observation that the "Croatian mother" claims cannot be properly sourced. Even if it could, it's just tedious "ethnicity war"-baiting trivia. See the Village Pump RfC that removed |ethnicity= from infoboxes. This was done because WP does not want to dwell on ethnic labelling; it was a not a signal to try desperately to ramp up the ethnic labelling by moving it elsewhere in the article and extending it to earlier generations.  — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽^ʌⱷ҅_ᴥⱷ^ʌ≼  13:30, 1 August 2016 (UTC)
• Yes Slobodna Dalmacija is RS [5] that is widely used on wikipedia. If needed WP:RSN can help. However, instead of writing about his parent's, I support "of Croatian-Montenegrin origin" to be included, so both his nationality and ethnicity is stated. 192.176.1.82 (talk) 17:25, 1 August 2016 (UTC)
  • ↑↑↑↑↑↑↑↑ Single edit account. FkpCascais (talk) 23:04, 1 August 2016 (UTC)
• Weak Yes It really isn't that important but if the information is there and it is reliable, I don't see why this couldn't go in the Bio section. But honestly, it's not super important for this the article. Hamsterlopithecus (talk) 15:45, 2 August 2016 (UTC)
• Yes. Not in the lead, just mention it briefly ("mother's family from Croatia") and source it well.. I'm assuming it is sourced well? "Nationalist POV" goes both ways. -- Director (talk) 08:34, 4 August 2016 (UTC)

Alternative suggestion

I just want to make ip's suggestion more noticeable. Should the sentence "Novak Djokovic is a Serbian tennis player of Croat-Monteneigran orign" be added to the lead?

• Yes Since some editors are "having" concerns that the original request isn't enough about Novak, with this request they surly will agree. I'm really interested in what excuse will they make up for this suggestion. Searcher11 (talk) 16:48, 20 July 2016 (UTC)
• No Simply, it is not true.--Soundwaweserb (talk) 16:54, 20 July 2016 (UTC)
• No, for the same reason we don't state that "Andre Agassi is an American retired tennis player of Armenian origin" or that "Roger Federer is a Swiss tennis player of South African origin". The origin (through the parents) is simply not important enough to be in the lead. Note that in the case of Djokovic, both his parents were born in Serbia, while Agassi's father was born in Iran, and Federer's mother was born in South Africa, but we still do not state it in the lead. Vanjagenije (talk) 21:40, 20 July 2016 (UTC)
• Comment I have nothing against this. That info is corrent (everybody except one user agrees with the source), however, my opinion is that the original request is more appropriate. Vanjagenije, you have nothing against the original request?82.214.103.5 (talk) 08:54, 21 July 2016 (UTC)
  • I never said that. Vanjagenije (talk) 12:15, 21 July 2016 (UTC)
• No because it's irrelevant. 23 editor (talk) 15:01, 21 July 2016 (UTC)
• No WP:BLPLEAD states that "Ethnicity, religion, or sexuality should generally not be in the lead unless it is relevant to the subject's notability." Since Djokovic's notability is clearly due to his tennis career, his ethnicity does not merit mention in the lead. - Saskoiler (talk) 22:22, 24 July 2016 (UTC)
• No, per BLPLEAD. The mania that a few people have for "race"-labelling people from that part of the world is PoV-pushing, tedious dispute-mongering, and not of interest to our readers. It would be totally aberrant if an article about my neighbor described her as "an American artist, of Ashkenazi–Irish–English-Scottish-Dutch-Italian–French background".  — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽^ʌⱷ҅_ᴥⱷ^ʌ≼  13:23, 1 August 2016 (UTC)
• No Good suggestion to write about Novak's origin, but not a lead material. 192.176.1.82 (talk) 17:25, 1 August 2016 (UTC)
• Strong NO Adding "origins" is an incredibly slippery slope. Usually, when there is an argument about this in the talk page, the best way to go is to state only the subject's place of birth and then explain the entire complexity of his or her origin in the biography section. Basically, by trying to be succinct, we can create more confusion. In these cases, it's best to just lay the whole story out there and let the readers understand the complexity. And the lede sentence is not the place to do this. No one would put that Barack Obama is an American politician of Kenyan descent. It just creates more confusion than it dispels. But all of this is thoroughly explained in his bio section. Hamsterlopithecus (talk) 15:40, 2 August 2016 (UTC)
• No This should never be done. We use nationality in the lead - that's enough. We don't need to go down to ethnicity, country of origin, race. etc --Lemongirl942 (talk) 07:43, 3 August 2016 (UTC)

Extra discussion

To keep some of the arguing OUT of the RfC. Fyunck(click) (talk) 09:04, 17 July 2016 (UTC)

• Comment: Dijana Žagar was born in Belgrade to parents that moved from Vinkovci in Croatia to Serbia, due to Dijana's father being a JNA officer. This makes her Serbian of Croatian origin. The names of her parents, Zdenko and Elizabeta, indeed point to Croatness. Dijana does not seem to identify as Croat, however. Novak explicitly identifies as Serb and Orthodox. The suggested changed sentence is not adequate, but the fact that she is of Croatian origin is now undisputable.--Zoupan 11:59, 17 July 2016 (UTC)

  First of all, this forms original research that goes against the only posted published secondary source. Secondly, someone moving to Belgrade from Croatia doesn't make them Serbian/Croatian. Neither do their names. Your whole logic if flawed. What does matter, is a secondary published source where Novak Djokovic himself provides a statement about his parents. Searcher11 (talk) 15:46, 17 July 2016 (UTC)

• Comment @Fyunck(click): What about origin of Andrea Petkovic and Milos Raonic? Does it matter?--Suzichi (talk) 10:59, 17 July 2016 (UTC)

  No, it doesn't. Fyunck(click) (talk) 19:10, 17 July 2016 (UTC)

  To you, however, it got published. I don't see how a published source could be "not notable enough" to get included in the article. The fact that it got published makes it notable.Searcher11 (talk) 19:35, 17 July 2016 (UTC)

  That's where you're wrong. They also have published Serena Williams shoe size. We don't include it because it's trivial. Most articles don't mention parents names at all. Here we do but their info is trivial and not notable to the article. And if it's controversial anyway it's better left out. Sources that link to his parents names should be good enough for readers who want more info. This is a summary of Djokovic's tennis career. Fyunck(click) (talk) 20:28, 17 July 2016 (UTC)

It is controversial origin of Milos Raonic but it is mentioned in the article. And there should be removed origin. It's not true that parents or origin not mentioned in other articles. For example we know that the brother of Ana Ivanovic name Milos.--Suzichi (talk) 13:08, 18 July 2016 (UTC)

I said most articles. Raonic does have a bit more. But it tells his parents names and professions, siblings names and professions, and a very rare uncles name, but only because he is the deputy prime minister. It doesn't go into detail about where any of those people were born. Djokovic's article also mentions siblings and their professions. It mention's his parents, but doesn't say what they do for a living. I'm just saying we don't usually go into that much detail on parents other than names. And if it's controversial we wind up getting RfC's like this one where it's eventually determined by consensus to leave any of it out of the article. Fyunck(click) (talk) 19:08, 18 July 2016 (UTC)

The Milos Raonic article (which recently passed through the scrutiny of feature article review) mentions these things with "due weight". The article is extremely comprehensive, and the entire paragraph which mentions his family and ethnicity is only six sentences, with the ethnicity component being only five words. All facts are drawn from reliable sources and carefully referenced. - Saskoiler (talk) 22:22, 24 July 2016 (UTC)

@23 editor: You have a good explanation, born in Serbia are Serbs, born in Kosovo are Kosovar or Albanian. You have to be careful because Kosovo is now an independent state :)--Suzichi (talk) 10:55, 22 July 2016 (UTC)

He did not said that, don't twist other people's words please. FkpCascais (talk) 06:44, 23 July 2016 (UTC)

• Who disagrees with what arguments and with what sources to support that arguments:

1-Soundwaweserb- claiming the source is wrong, missing the rfcs subject and speaks of nationality instead of ethnicity, puts in original research to disprove the source

2- Fyunck(click) - not notable

3- FkpCascais - not notable, then goes into claiming that the source doesn't support the request, against his own quote from the source

4-23 editor-not notable

5- StudiesWorld-not notable

6- SMcCandlish - not properly sourced

• Several editors have touched on "not notable" reasoning. Original research can't go against a secondary source. SMcCandlish didn't explain his claim. 89.164.151.158 (talk) 11:46, 6 August 2016 (UTC)

Strong bias

@Suzichi: @Searcher11: @Saskoiler: @SW3 5DL: @Hamsterlopithecus: @Lemongirl942: @SMcCandlish:. Sorry if you aren't interested and i pinged you. Also, sorry but i will post this to talk pages if it is deleted. I don't know who of you is against bias and in-group pov pushing, so I'm letting you all know some past. Any admin who closes this should read this discussion. The discussion shows that certain Serbian editors have a strong bias.

1 FkpCascais makes this edit to the article. One can notice that the edit is the same as this rfc's request.

2 Soundwaweserb gets angry so he tells this to FkpCascais: What's your problem and why are you introducing lies and Croatian propaganda to the article.

3 FkpCascais responds: Why did you come to fuck me around here. We don't "know" here, but go there and move your ass and I shouldn't do all over there. They have a source where Novak himself said those things and you go and find sources to deny that one.

4 Soundwaweserb reverts FkpCascais

5 FkpCascais doesn't revert

So, we have FkpCascais doing the edit himself and saying: "They have a source where Novak himself said those things". Now, for the same source he claims this. So before Soundwaweserb had attacked FkpCascais that he is lies and Croatian propaganda to the article FkpCascais makes the edit he is now opposing himself by saying "They have a source where Novak himself said those things". Clear case of POV pushing and In-group favoritism. Now FkpCascais says "What we are facing here is that some Crotiaan editors found some sources saying Djokovic's mother ancestors are from a city found nowadays in Croatia. So, they want to use that to say Djokovic is somehow Croatian.". This is shameful and it's sad because it's hard to notice this kind of disruptive behavior unless you try to deal with it. Something only @Suzichi: will understand. Others probably don't want to "waste time" 141.138.55.81 (talk) 23:00, 3 August 2016 (UTC)

Hmm... well... usually when arguments get heated in the talk pages, it is probably best to take a break from editing altogether and let other (less passionate) editors take a fresh look. A good idea will hold no matter who is evaluating it. That is what the RfC is for, and that is how I learned about this discussion. I think the people who are the most passionate about this article being better should, for the sake of the article, take a break and come back to see what happened. Nothing here is permanent and it's more of a disservice to feed biases to editors who have just arrived. My two cents. Hamsterlopithecus (talk) 16:08, 4 August 2016 (UTC)

The case is not that simple. At that time I was uninvolved at that dispute and I had just noteced it on my watchlist. I gave a superficial look and at time it sounded to me fair to say within the article the heritage of Novak's parents. That was all I thought it was about, however, once I noteced that the case and the source was being use to push into the lead the absurd ideia that Novak was somehow half-Croatian, I immediatelly dropped the case and stopped supporting such nationaistic POV-pushing which was being done by the IP. That is why I changed sides, because the other side wants to missuse a source to claim more than it really says. FkpCascais (talk) 17:28, 4 August 2016 (UTC)

The source according to your quote of the source says "my mother was Croat, despite being born in Belgrade, cause all her family is from Vinkovci, and I have plenty of relatives there. My father is Montenegrin". The rfc's request reads "His father is Montenegrin and his mother Croatian from Vinkovci". Now where exactly do you see "missuse a source to claim more than it really says". Where's that more89.164.232.66 (talk) 00:45, 5 August 2016 (UTC)

All editors have biases; we're human. The question is whether the resulting content is biased, after variouseditors with their various biases have worked on the content with an eye to eliminating bias in the final product.  — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽^ʌⱷ҅_ᴥⱷ^ʌ≼  22:28, 4 August 2016 (UTC)

SMcCandlish ☺ It's also human to lie and deceive, but Wikipedia editors should not do that.

FkpCascais , in the referenced discussion, provided this quote from the source in question:

'Novak Djokovic: When I got into the quarter-finals of Roland Garros, I receved a call from prime-minister Koštunica who congratulated me for the archievement. I was in shock cause he knew all about me. That my mother was Croat, despite being born in Belgrade, cause all her family is from Vinkovci, and I have plenty of relatives there. My father is Montenegrin, and I am...'

Now he has a different view on that source: "sources saying Djokovic's mother ancestors are from a city found nowadays in Croatia. So, they want to use that to say Djokovic is somehow Croatian"

No, the source doesn't say "Djokovic's mother ancestors are from a city found nowadays in Croatia" with other editors "want[ing] to use that to say Djokovic is somehow Croatian". What the source says is exactly what he had quoted earlier.

He's trying to deceive other editors and that's not ok, although deception is a human characteristic.

Note that he didn't initially attack the source. No, he went with "not notable" objection. Only after you had provoked them by quoting wiki policy. When that objection went to dust thanks to you and other experienced editors quoting wiki policies, he , wanting so hard to stop this edit went against his earlier opinion.

As i see this rfc: "not notable" objection is pretty much dust after several editors went to quote wiki policies on notability. Only 2 (or 3 counting FkpCascais's revelation) of 11 editors have "something" against the source. Six editors agree. Why exactly do you oppose the request. You say "Croatian mother claims cannot be properly sourced". Mind giving any explanation considering the fact that you are in minority? FkpCascais was very helpful for providing a quote from the source? Is it something you don't understand in that quote? 89.164.232.66 (talk) 00:23, 5 August 2016 (UTC)

My point still stands. Wikipedia editors will lie and deceive. As long as the content that comes out does not do so in the end, we're doing our "job". It's quixotic to try to reduce Wikipedia's editorship to only editors who are 100% honest and 0% biased. No one on earth qualifies, except maybe for some extreme case of a rare type of autism in an institution somewhere who is both incapable of deception and self-deception and unable to form a lasting subjective opinion about anything.  — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽^ʌⱷ҅_ᴥⱷ^ʌ≼  11:05, 6 August 2016 (UTC)

@SMcCandlish:My point also stands. That's not ok. Rfc was not needed with so clear and credible source, but because of that behavior we all have to waste time with the unknown end result. For instance I wanted to engage you to explain you claim but you ignored me. The source is credible, published and with Djokovic himself saying:"my mother was Croat, despite being born in Belgrade, cause all her family is from Vinkovci, and I have plenty of relatives there. My father is Montenegrin". Your stand lacks proper arguments. We have your word against the published source. If you want to discredit a source you have to put in something more than your word. 89.164.151.158 (talk) 11:26, 6 August 2016 (UTC)

This discussion is already overflowing with Asdisis socks, much as what happened at Talk:Nikola Tesla. One thing's for sure, the lad sure has got a lot of time to spare. 23 editor (talk) 17:03, 6 August 2016 (UTC)

I don't understand.. WAS his mother's family from Croatia? Is that sourced? IF so, why not mention it, what is the issue? IF so, it does seem unreasonable to contest this. I will point out that Serbian (ultra)nationalist thought is based around how Croats, Montenegrins, and virtually all ex-Yugoslavs are "really Serbs anyway".

It is unreasonable, in my view, to describe Djokovic as anything other than "Serbian", but in the main body of the text its perfectly justifiable to add mention of his ancestry. So far as I know, he was from a JNA officer family, and many members thereof had parents of multiple ethnicities, and lived all over the place (Brotherhood and Unity and all that). -- Director (talk) 06:47, 7 August 2016 (UTC)

If he himself says "my mother was Croat, despite being born in Belgrade,... My father is Montenegrin" it really is unreasonable to contest this, however Director you know how their mindset works. You have dealt with them before. 141.136.205.239 (talk) 12:05, 7 August 2016 (UTC)

Can we introduce that as a quotation then? Pls ignore who this comes from, lets just be objective here.. -- Director (talk) 15:22, 7 August 2016 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 31 July 2016

change 29 masters to 30 in intro. he won again today http://www.rogerscup.com/match-detail/?id=MS001&from=live

98.204.228.159 (talk) 21:51, 31 July 2016 (UTC)

 Already done Vanjagenije (talk) 22:01, 31 July 2016 (UTC)