Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Ottoman Palestine

Ottoman Palestine

Ottoman Palestine (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View log · Stats)

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dab page with a WP:PRIMARYTOPIC History of Palestine#Ottoman_era and no other valid entries (or arguably one more per talk page). In either case, dab fails WP:TWODABS . Recommend Redirect: reverting back to redirect to the PRIMARYTOPIC and any Disambiguation hatnote / Further info / See also done there per my argument at Talk:Ottoman Palestine. This dab was created without fixing incoming per WP:FIXDABLINKS. Instead of fixing, we can just revert this mess and dab at target per my talk. Widefox; talk 14:00, 4 January 2016 (UTC)

• Ping editors User:Chesdovi User:Debresser User:Al Ameer son User:Greyshark09 User:Midas02 User:Bkonrad. Widefox; talk 14:05, 4 January 2016 (UTC)
• See also A similar dab is Ottoman Israel, which I will AfD separately as combining dabs is sub-optimal. Widefox; talk 14:11, 4 January 2016 (UTC)

• Speedy keep 1. Consensus to have this page, and to have it as a disambiguation page specifically, was established on Talk:Ottoman Palestine. 2. There is an active discussion there about if this disambiguation page can be improved, without deletion being an option, at least till this redhead nominator started bulldozing into the discussion. Debresser (talk) 14:39, 4 January 2016 (UTC)

The argument for deletion proper has been addressed on Talk:Ottoman Palestine, since that is where the discussion is taking place. Debresser (talk) 14:47, 4 January 2016 (UTC)

See WP:LOCALCONSENSUS / consensus changes. WP:TWODABS is unanswered, this is not a vote, but a WP:CLUE. Three dab project editors have voiced concerns.

• Note to closer I answered the dab project note over "an aggressive editor". Behavioural aspects of this should be addressed on their page Debresser and Wikipedia:Administrators'_noticeboard/Incidents#Debresser_.28relist.29. Widefox; talk 14:57, 4 January 2016 (UTC)

Note: This debate has been included in the list of Disambiguations-related deletion discussions. Shawn in Montreal (talk) 14:49, 4 January 2016 (UTC)

• Note to closer Please review also the discussion at Ottoman Palestine, which edit warrior Widefox is trying to circumvent against wide participation there. Debresser (talk) 17:09, 4 January 2016 (UTC)
• delete not really a disambiguation page. - üser:Altenmann >t 16:36, 4 January 2016 (UTC)

Note: This debate has been included in the list of History-related deletion discussions. Jbh^Talk 18:00, 4 January 2016 (UTC)

Note: This debate has been included in the list of Disambiguations-related deletion discussions. Jbh^Talk 18:00, 4 January 2016 (UTC)

Note: This debate has been included in the list of Middle East-related deletion discussions. Jbh^Talk 18:00, 4 January 2016 (UTC)

Note: This debate has been included in the list of Palestine-related deletion discussions. Jbh^Talk 18:00, 4 January 2016 (UTC)

Redirect to History of Palestine#Ottoman era. There is nothing ambiguous about the title. There is only one Palestine, and it has only been under Ottoman rule once. So no ambiguity whatsoever, and described in the Ottoman period section of the Palestine article. --Midas02 (talk) 01:10, 5 January 2016 (UTC)

@Midas02: I'm not completely against this proposal, but don't you think History of Palestine#Ottoman era would be a better link to redirect to than Palestine#Ottoman era, which is basically a brief summary of the former? --Al Ameer (talk) 05:50, 5 January 2016 (UTC)

Sorry, my mistake. I had forgotten the 'History of' bit. --Midas02 (talk) 05:57, 5 January 2016 (UTC)

The ambiguity is whether Ottoman Palestine refers to what happpened in the country during Ottoman rule, or the administrative division of the Ottoman Empire. Debresser (talk) 07:10, 5 January 2016 (UTC):

Which is an moot argument, as it has a clear PRIMARYTOPIC. Once the consensus of that primary topic is acknowledged, that leaves the more subtle issue of a potential WP:RELATED hatnote at the primary topic. WP:TWODABS means no dab is needed anyhow, so this is moot / offtopic here. Widefox; talk 09:21, 6 January 2016 (UTC)

I disagree, and think that none of these two is primary. Debresser (talk) 11:34, 6 January 2016 (UTC)

What you believe is irrelevant. What everyone else in this discussion except for you understands is that in a WP:TWODABS situation, you must provide evidence to support the belief that there is no primary topic, and furthermore you must demonstrate that the topics are unrelated in order for WP:DABCONCEPT to not apply. As it happens, I fixed hundreds of incoming links to this title, and every single one referred to the Ottoman era in the history of Palestine, so I find the case for primacy pretty compelling, and the case for ambiguity nonexistent. bd2412 T 15:05, 6 January 2016 (UTC)

Just stating a belief without reasoning is not a basis for removing the status quo of the primary topic - there's no weight per guideline/policy so per BD2412 is a weak argument considering the obvious primary topic to the contrary due to 1. status quo 2. consensus, and 3. links. It is irrelevant. Widefox; talk 01:22, 7 January 2016 (UTC)

• Redirect: there's really only one thing that can be called "Ottoman Palestine", so there's no need for a disambiguation page. --Carnildo (talk) 02:54, 5 January 2016 (UTC)

The ambiguity is whether Ottoman Palestine refers to what happened in the country during Ottoman rule, or the administrative division of the Ottoman Empire. Debresser (talk) 07:10, 5 January 2016 (UTC)

• Redirect to History of Palestine#Ottoman era. Along with Debresser, I had supported the current dab situation as a temporary solution because we entered into a deadlock of sorts at the talk page. I have been insisting from the beginning that the only logical solution was to redirect to History of Palestine#Ottoman era because this is obviously what "Ottoman Palestine" is referring to and the most likely destination sought by the reader who types "Ottoman Palestine" into the search bar. Redirecting an article about the region of Palestine to an article about the region of Syria is like redirecting Upper Egypt to Egypt; yes Palestine was part of the larger region of Syria during the Ottoman era, but why should we redirect to Ottoman Syria when there's a huge amount of information about the Ottoman period in Palestine in the History of Palestine article and virtually none in the Ottoman Syria article. It defies common sense. --Al Ameer (talk) 05:50, 5 January 2016 (UTC)
• Redirect to History of Palestine#Ottoman era. Having a disambiguation page at this title creates a false sense that there is a formally recognized lack of primary meaning to these terms. bd2412 T 13:52, 5 January 2016 (UTC)
• Redirect to History of Palestine#Ottoman era. -- Necrothesp (talk) 17:09, 6 January 2016 (UTC)
• Keep as disambig - it is useful to both direct to History of Palestine in Ottoman era and to the summary on Ottoman provinces covering the Levant at the time (Ottoman Syria).GreyShark (dibra) 17:58, 6 January 2016 (UTC)

• That ignores the fact that Ottoman Palestine obviously refers to the History of Palestine during Ottoman rule, thus making it the primary topic. Ottoman Syria is secondary if anything and like others have suggested above, could be tacked on as a hatnote of the History section. In fact, "Ottoman Syria" barely discusses the History of [greater] Syria under Ottoman rule let alone Palestine or Lebanon and should probably be renamed "Administrative divisions of Ottoman Syria" or something similar because that's currently what the article is: a list of Ottoman administrative divisions of the region extending from Aleppo to Aqaba. --Al Ameer (talk) 19:46, 6 January 2016 (UTC)

User:Greyshark09 The recent removal of the obvious primary topic is contested and can be reverted as such, with that underlined by the consensus here for that status quo. Consensus for removing the primary topic is needed, and an argument based on guideline or something may be more persuasive than being based on "useful" - see WP:USEFUL. A primary topic being a primary topic is useful, and removing it is the opposite. Widefox; talk 01:16, 7 January 2016 (UTC)

• Redirect like the Israel one. Carlossuarez46 (talk) 18:11, 6 January 2016 (UTC)

• @Carlossuarez46: Just to clarify, do you mean to redirect to "History of Palestine#Ottoman era"? Ottoman Israel is currently a dab page like Ottoman Palestine is currently. --Al Ameer (talk) 19:46, 6 January 2016 (UTC)

• Yes. Better stated: as was nominated and I supported in the AfD for the Israel one. Carlossuarez46 (talk) 19:49, 6 January 2016 (UTC)

• Delete. There are only two entries in this page. (c.f. WP:2DAB.) One is a very weak form of partial title match. I have no comments on the other. No prejudice against a proper redirection. Best regards, Codename Lisa (talk) 13:05, 9 January 2016 (UTC)