Talk:Genetically modified food

Template:WAP assignment

Misleading presentation

The statement that GM foods on the market pose no risk is subtly different from the statement that GMOs carry no potential risk. In the lede, the cited sources do support the statement about foods "on the market" but they don't support the idea that there is no potential risk from GM foods. Yet the potential risks aren't even mentioned in the lede. Howunusual (talk) 03:52, 20 October 2014 (UTC)

I don't understand your point. This article is about actual, not theoretical, GM food. The article on GM controversies goes into the potential risks. Jytdog (talk) 10:47, 20 October 2014 (UTC)

The article is about the broad topic of genetic modification of food, not just the GM food that is currently on the market. At least, that is a natural assumption for readers to make. So, there is a bit of sleight of hand, in making a statement--in the lede--about a broad scientific consensus that is, actually, only true of food currently on the market. Howunusual (talk) 16:23, 29 November 2014 (UTC)

the article is currently about actual, not theoretical, GM food. we can of course discuss broadening the scope... Jytdog (talk) 01:59, 30 November 2014 (UTC)

Howunusual (talk): Thank you for your suggestion. You are correct. Jytdog says that "the article is currently about actual, not theoretical, GM food." Who decided that? I don't agree with that assumption, and it is not stated in the article. I agree with Howunusual (talk) that it is a "sleight of hand", and deliberately misleading. Can we agree to add the content Howunusual (talk) suggested? David Tornheim (talk) 22:25, 1 March 2015 (UTC)

There is no sleight of hand.. the article is as clear as it could be.

The focus on actual food as opposed to theoretical food (?) or products in development, was decided back when the the articles were reorganized so they would each cover a distinct aspect - we have one on the basic science (Genetic engineering); one broadly covering the various kinds of organisms that have been modified, and why (Genetically modified organism) (which has many, many subarticles); one on the actual crops that have been modified, really focused on the crops themselves and how they are used in agriculture - which was completely lacking when we started - (Genetically modified crops) and one on the resulting food (this one). There are two articles on regulation (Regulation of genetically modified organisms focused on the basic science, and Regulation of the release of genetically modified organisms which is focused more on commercialization - the actual release of them into the world). Finally, because the controversies cut across all of them, and had come to dominate all of them in a thicket-y, repetitious, and even self-contradictory way, we created a Genetically modified food controversies article that covered all of it in one place, and per WP:SUMMARY, included a summary of that article in each of the others. We did the same thing with the regulation-of-release article. You will find those two summary sections near the end of each of the articles above, and a set of links at the top orienting the reader where other related topics are. It has worked well to keep the content well-organized and non-overlapping for a few years now. We can discuss a re-organization, anytime you like. It should take the other, related articles into account.

I think it is really important that people have a place to go, to learn about what actual food out there is GM. That content didn't exist in WP before we built it. Jytdog (talk) 22:59, 1 March 2015 (UTC)

It is completely possible that some future GM food might be hazardous to humans. Genetics, while rapidly advancing, is still in its infancy. To assert that some speculated food will be harmful is not helpful. Better to talk about whatever flaws may exist in today's risk assessments and testing protocols. You can't prove that every GM food will be safe (or prove any other prediction.) You can assess the safety of today's products and discuss the risks of today's procedures producing some future harm. That's it. Lfstevens (talk) 08:49, 2 March 2015 (UTC)

I agree with Lfstevens (talk). This is one of the major criticisms by GMO critics--insufficient testing. The articles does not reflect that and is therefore lacks NPOV. Let's include information from critics in both the lede and the article about concerns of insufficient testing and showing the major differences between the U.S. and Europe and nations that have GMO bans. None of this is articulated in the article, but instead there is vague language with "big" words like "regulation" and "differences" but no details with useful information. Consumers need to know the difference in regulation between different countries, so they know what is possible, not just which things products are GMO--which incidentally they would know if the industry, AMA, etc. did not so vigorously oppose labelling.David Tornheim (talk) 10:37, 2 March 2015 (UTC)

If we have WP:RS support for the "inadequate testing" claim, I'd say that goes in. I have seen a host of non-RS sources making the claim. As has been repeatedly covered, the issue is not the existence of a claim. It's about sources. Lfstevens (talk) 16:48, 2 March 2015 (UTC)

____________________
This article is about GMO food. The introduction needs to say there is no scientific consensus on the safety of GMO food. While I can not speak to the accuracy of the carefully constructed claim that "that food on the market derived from GM crops poses no greater risk to human health than conventional food," it is clear that the phrasing of this statement gives the false impression that there is scientific consensus on the safety of GMO food, which is not true.

This is the conclusion of an open letter published this year in the peer-reviewed journal Environmental Sciences Europe and signed by more than 300 independent researchers. Furthermore, I would like to point out that their introduction begins by noting that there is "a concerted effort by genetically modified (GM) seed developers and some scientists, commentators, and journalists to construct claims that there is a ‘scientific consensus’ on GMO safety and that the debate on this topic is ‘over.’"

Considering this, I think it is crucial that Wikipedia-- often the first search result for many subjects-- refrain from furthering the false claims of "scientific consensus." As it is, the exclusion in this article of a statement on the lack of overall consensus on the safety of GMO food is irresponsible and misleading. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.169.76.198 (talk) 22:20, 30 May 2015 (UTC)

I see there is a discussion on the "consensus" claim further below as well. This comment is more appropriate here, however, because it is about the introduction giving a misleading impression. The misleading statement that I commented on above should stay, if it's true. With the addition of noting that there is no scientific consensus on GMO food overall, that statement will no longer be misleading (pending the results of the ongoing discussion).

66.169.76.198 (talk) 21:38, 30 May 2015 (UTC)
_______________________

Edit request

In the introduction, it would be appropriate to note that genetic modification simply refers to the editing of DNA sequence, and cannot be classified as entirely dangerous or not. It depends on the genes being altered. Much like changes in the human genome can be favorable (e.g. HIV resistance through Ccr5 polymorphism), unfavorable (e.g. CFTR mutation causing cystic fibrosis), or context-dependent (e.g. polymorphism for sickle cell anemia).

Also, what is required to be able to edit this page? I have a PhD from Harvard. Thanks. CellbioPhD (talk) 05:22, 23 November 2014 (UTC)cellbiophd

anyone can edit the page. if your edit is not good, it will be reverted. this is natural especially when you are learning, so don't take it personally. please read the introduction again. it does not say that any genetic modification is safe. what it says is very carefully worded. please the comment above, as well. Jytdog (talk) 06:21, 23 November 2014 (UTC)

CellbioPhD (talk): Thank you for your suggestion. Can we all agree this should be added to the article? David Tornheim (talk) 22:18, 1 March 2015 (UTC)

Politifact: Sen. Donna Nesselbush: three quarters of processed foods have genetically modified organisms

Maybe this article or the sources it links to can be used for something, here or in one of the subarticles. [1] Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 13:33, 25 March 2015 (UTC)

Hm. that is a pretty decent source... might be good for a general section - with the correct information from the body of that article :) Jytdog (talk) 13:36, 25 March 2015 (UTC)

Discussions on scientific consensus on GMO safety elsewhere

See particularly.

FYI. The claim of "scientific consensus" on GMO safety is being discussed here and was briefly discussed here. David Tornheim (talk) 05:11, 2 April 2015 (UTC)

Copyedit

Took a run through this. Feedback encouraged. Comments:

• Reduced wc by about 15%
• Still a lot of extra stuff in there that describes various foods, regardless of whether they are GM. The piece would be better without it, but since I didn't know why it was there, I let it ride.
• Added 1 cn for the Greenpeace sentence.
• Grouped the various kinds of mods.

Cheers! Lfstevens (talk) 01:36, 8 April 2015 (UTC)

thanks, i appreciate your run-through. Jytdog (talk) 03:27, 8 April 2015 (UTC)

me too. I have not had a chance to review your changes yet. David Tornheim (talk) 05:42, 8 April 2015 (UTC)

Most of what I looked at where you cut out unnecessary words is good editting. This change does more than cut down words and eliminates some meaning:

• Original: "economic concerns raised by the fact that GM seeds (and potentially animals) that are food sources are subject to intellectual property rights owned by corporations."
• Revision: " the fact that some GM seeds that are food sources are subject to intellectual property rights and owned by corporations"

I request you restore it back to the original, because economic concerns are in addition to property rights, and the idea of patenting animals is an additional concern. To shorten it, this might work:

• Proposed Alternative: "economic concerns, especially intellectual property rights over food sources (currently GM seeds), and possibly animals, that become monopolistic." David Tornheim (talk) 05:59, 8 April 2015 (UTC)

I took out "economic concerns" because it was vague. If you have a citeable list of specific concerns, happy to add those. Lfstevens (talk) 16:23, 8 April 2015 (UTC)

Please restore these two sentence unless all of the material is found elsewhere in the article

• "Food biotechnology has grown to include cloning of plants and animals, as well as further development in genetically modified foods in recent years."

Cloning is not GM. This article is not about biotek. The last half is too vague. If you have specifics in mind, list and source them. Lfstevens (talk) 16:23, 8 April 2015 (UTC)

• "Plants are now engineered for insect resistance, fungal resistance, viral resistance, herbicide resistance, changed nutritional content, improved taste, and improved storage."

Need cite. Lfstevens (talk) 16:23, 8 April 2015 (UTC)

In the Process section: Re Regulation: My understanding is that applications are voluntary, but I did not see that in the original or the revision of this section.

Is there such a thing as an involuntary application for anything? Lfstevens (talk) 16:23, 8 April 2015 (UTC)

I'm stopping here for tonight...David Tornheim (talk) 06:15, 8 April 2015 (UTC)

Thanks for the scrutiny. Keep it up! Lfstevens (talk) 16:23, 8 April 2015 (UTC)

Detection

I suggest that the emphasis on a single 5-year old primary article for this section is inappropriate. especially since Google Scholar shows it cited by only 25 articles, evidence that it has an insignificant effect on the scientific literature. Inspection of those articles citing it are almost exclusively limited to those discussing soybeans only. It's a suitable reference, but not for the long quote. DGG ( talk ) 15:32, 24 April 2015 (UTC)

WHO source

GrayDuck156, please explain your objection to the WHO source per your deletions here and here and here. Thanks. Jytdog (talk) 00:21, 28 May 2015 (UTC)

First of all, I am a new editor, so I apologize in advance for any more awkwardness. As to the reason I removed that citation, the source does not support the claim. The link simply contains no support for the claim that "[t]here is broad scientific consensus that food on the market derived from GM crops poses no greater risk to human health than conventional food."

In fact, the source contradicts the claim by saying "...it is not possible to make general statements on the safety of all GM foods." Your response, that the sentence does not say "all GMO foods," is not convincing because a reader must assume that subject was implied or the sentence makes little sense. If only an unspecified subset of such foods is included then, logically, 99.9 percent of all GMO food could cause everyone to drop dead if they come within a mile of the stuff and the sentence would still make sense. How about a compromise--change "...food..." to "...an unspecified subset of food..."

I certainly hope that Wikipedia does not change from being a neutral source of information to being a propaganda vehicle. — Preceding unsigned comment added by GrayDuck156 (talk • contribs) 00:37, 28 May 2015 (UTC)

Thank you for talking! That is what we do here when we disagree. it is completely true that it would be idiocy to say that "all GM food is safe". No one here will argue with that. The statement in the article does not say anything about "all GM foods". It says "currently marketed". That is a very, very small subset of "all GM foods" that could ever exist. It is also a very clear subset. The mistake you have made here, is a common one. That is why I wrote in my edit note, "please also read the actual content - it doesn't say "all GM food""

Going further, The WHO source makes it clear that there are three main theoretical concerns. The WHO source also says (emphasis added) "GM foods currently available on the international market have passed safety assessments and are not likely to present risks for human health. In addition, no effects on human health have been shown as a result of the consumption of such foods by the general population in the countries where they have been approved. Continuous application of safety assessments based on the Codex Alimentarius principles and, where appropriate, adequate post market monitoring, should form the basis for ensuring the safety of GM foods." Do you see how this source exactly supports the content now? Jytdog (talk) 00:45, 28 May 2015 (UTC)

That string of citations in the lead makes it look like we are synthesizing, or at least heavily emphasizing, the point, "'broad scientific consensus,' here, look at it all." Probably just the AAAS citation would do (the rest could go where this reappears in the body text), as the AAAS source says: 'Moreover, the AAAS Board said, the World Health Organization, the American Medical Association, the U.S. National Academy of Sciences, the British Royal Society, and “every other respected organization that has examined the evidence has come to the same conclusion: consuming foods containing ingredients derived from GM crops is no riskier than consuming the same foods containing ingredients from crop plants modified by conventional plant improvement techniques.”' In this case, that should support "broad scientific consensus," additionally supported by the further citations later on. --Tsavage (talk) 14:07, 28 May 2015 (UTC)

there are so many citations because so many people hate GMOs and come here attacking the statement. It and its sourcing were upheld in an RfC - a link to that is in the FAQ at the top of the Genetically modified food controversies article. Jytdog (talk) 14:21, 28 May 2015 (UTC)

I would agree with Tsavage that his wording sticks closer to sources without using SYNTH. Justification of the use of SYNTH has no basis in WP policy. I disagree that all discussion should come to halt once a past RfC is referenced; this seems a tactic also not based in PAGs.

I first raised the issue of this "scientific consensus" string of refs at the March Against Monsanto article, where it was inserted early in the creation of the article, but without any reference to the March. It remains one of the most egregious violations of WP:SYNTH on WP that I have seen.

I notice that the "scientific consensus" is elaborated upon in the controversy section. This makes no sense unless it is being used as a rebuttal. Much like in the MAM article, this is a violation of WP:OR. Why should this be under "controversy" rather than in its own section:

There is broad scientific consensus that food on the market derived from GM crops poses no greater risk than conventional food. No reports of ill effects have been documented in the human population from GM food. The starting point for assessing GM food safety is to evaluate its similarity to the non-modified version. Further testing is then done on a case-by-case basis to ensure that concerns over potential toxicity and allergenicity are satisfied.

The second portion of this paragraph mentions the labeling aspect, but reads more like a PR statement for the FDA (which is currently run by a former VP and lobbyist for Monsanto):

Although labeling of GMO products in the marketplace is required in 64 countries, the US does not require this. The FDA's policy is to require a label given significant differences in composition or health impacts. They have not identified such differences in any food currently approved for sale.

I'm seeing violations of WP:SYNTH, WP:OR as well as what seems like Advocacy. (Mentioning this should not be construed as "GMO hating".) petrarchan47คุก 23:20, 28 May 2015 (UTC)

The WP community saw none of those things in the RfC. Jytdog (talk) 04:31, 29 May 2015 (UTC)

You're saying that 1/3 of the controversy section being used to reiterate consensus of safety (rather than to discuss controversy) was addressed in an RfC? Can you link to this discussion please? petrarchan47คุก 08:59, 29 May 2015 (UTC)

After 3 attempts to procure said discussion, I have gone ahead and removed the safety section from "Controversy", and to this section added the percentage of Americans who favor labeling (which is what makes it controversial) as well as the new USDA labeling program. petrarchan47คุก 04:57, 30 May 2015 (UTC)

@Jytdog:"Do you see how this source exactly supports the content now?" I disagree with your logic. The WHO claiming that some GMO foods "have passed safety assessments" is not equivalent to the WHO pronouncing that broad scientific consensus exists that food on the market derived from GM crops poses no greater risk to human health than conventional food--especially considering that the WHO neglected to cite any independently-administered clinical trials. Moreover, The WHO claiming that some GMO foods are not likely to present risks for human health is not equivalent to the WHO pronouncing that those foods pose "no greater risk to human health than conventional food." Skydiving is not likely to present risks for human health (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parachuting#Safety), but that hardly means that skydiving poses no greater risk to human health than other forms of recreation like reading or walking.GrayDuck156 (talk) 00:45, 29 May 2015 (UTC)

I hear you; that is your interpretation. If you read all the sources there, they add up to the same thing. There is no basis - no mechanism for toxicity - for questioning the safety of currently marketed GM food relative to conventional food. Which is not perfectly safe. The comparison with skydiving is not apt, at all. Jytdog (talk) 05:13, 29 May 2015 (UTC)

@Jytdog: "If you read all the sources there, they add up to the same thing." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:No_original_research#Synthesis_of_published_material: "Do not combine material from multiple sources to reach or imply a conclusion not explicitly stated by any of the sources." I think this sentence is clear in saying that your defense is not valid. "There is no basis...for questioning the safety of currently marketed GM food relative to conventional food." This is your opinion, not a statement in the WHO web page. "Which is not perfectly safe." I do not see how this sentence relates to whether the WHO citation supports the claim in the article. "The comparison with skydiving is not apt, at all." Please explain.GrayDuck156 (talk) 05:36, 29 May 2015 (UTC)

What we do here is read reliable sources and summarize them. Summarizing is not synthesis. really, you are beating a dead horse here. Jytdog (talk) 05:38, 29 May 2015 (UTC)

@Jytdog: The point is that the WHO article lends no support to the sentence the citation claims to support. None whatsoever. And, as I pointed out below, none of the commenters in that somewhat-related RfC argued in favor of keeping the WHO citation.GrayDuck156 (talk) 06:04, 29 May 2015 (UTC)

I suggest taking a look at this conversation where the consensus statement was recently discussed. There's more going on than just the WHO statement, but we've got adequate sourcing for the statement in general. Also, you might want to read WP:THREAD since you're new to the talk pages. If you indent your comments, we can know who you're replying to. Your last comment technically started a new thread in this section, but that's fine to break things up too for now. Kingofaces43 (talk) 00:59, 29 May 2015 (UTC)

@Kingofaces43: Thanks for the tips. With regard to your substantive comment, my concern with the WHO citation is not that it is overkill, but that it simply does not lend support to the claim in the article. You and Jytdog have been specific about which sentence you believe lends credence to the sentence, but I have explained why I disagree. Thus, I think you and Jytdog need to explain your analysis in more detail to justify your position that the citation should remain in the article. Please note that I think some of the comments in this thread have become a little off topic. My concern, at least in this context, is only with the WHO citation and its failure to support the preceding sentence in the article.

And I don't agree. And neither does the community. Again, please read the RfC, and please read about RfCs (here WP:RFC) before you continue arguing. You cannot change things by pounding away on dead horses, that the community has already affirmed. Nothing has changed science-wise since the RfC. Thanks. Jytdog (talk) 05:24, 29 May 2015 (UTC)

@Jytdog:The RfC addressed whether the sentence should remain, not whether the WHO citation should remain. Only one commenter addressed that citation; his assessment of it was entirely negative.GrayDuck156 (talk) 05:52, 29 May 2015 (UTC)

not explicitly mentioning it, is just that. the statement and its sourcing were upheld. And the source does support the statement. I have no idea what is at stake for you here. You clearly misread the content when you started and you are just shifting ground here. I suggest you drop the stick. Jytdog (talk) 05:57, 29 May 2015 (UTC)

@Jytdog: With regard to the citation overkill, there is no need for it because "broad scientific consensus" (or some equivalent wording) appears to be supported in this case by the AAAS statement, for one. If each of those reports actually say there is general consensus (which they all do not), then they are redundant, especially in a lead where no citations are required if the material is a summary of body content. If those sources are simply individual examples of "no harm" findings, then this is some form of synthesis, where a conclusion is being drawn from a number of items - it is not a simple summary to add up a series of documents pronouncing on complex scientific issues to arrive at a brief original summary phrase (no matter how routinely that may be done by topic experts in their professional circles). My point, though, is that a line of citations does not give confidence to the reader.

The RfC on "broad scientific consensus" is not "the WP community" it is a dozen or so editors (WP:CONLIMITED), taking the "informal process for requesting outside input" of an WP:RFC on a daughter article Talk page, attempting to approve original research against core guidance, WP:RS/AC "The statement that all or most scientists or scholars hold a certain view requires reliable sourcing that directly says that all or most scientists or scholars hold that view. Otherwise, individual opinions should be identified as those of particular, named sources. Editors should avoid original research especially with regard to making blanket statements based on novel syntheses of disparate material. Stated simply, any statement in Wikipedia that academic consensus exists on a topic must be sourced rather than being based on the opinion or assessment of editors."

This, like other similar arguments I have seen recently on various science and medicine pages, seem to be all about the editors and their opinions, often to the detriment of content accessibility, when our only good reason to be editing is to write a usable encyclopedia for general readers. My original comment here is about editorial presentation within all other content guidance, and the argument in reply is about other considerations that apparently override basic readability, meanwhile, hitting a wall of citations in a lead makes me wonder as reader what is going on, and begin to mistrust what I am reading. The reason for the multiple citations, as I interpret from the reply, is "citation overkill as a preemptive measure to satisfy the inevitable unreasonable anti-GMO editors who will routinely show up, this tactic in part based on an article-level RfC that attempts to override core guidance by legitimizing a piece of original research." That's a lot for an editor to contend with, and yet it is tossed off as routine. It's not a good state of things. --Tsavage (talk) 08:13, 29 May 2015 (UTC)

I don't know what you mean by "article level RfC". The RfC was on a specific statement, with its sourcing. Jytdog (talk) 12:11, 29 May 2015 (UTC)

• I agree with nearly everything said by GrayDuck156, Tsavage and Petrarchan47 about the problems with the claimed "scientific consensus" statement and the use of the WHO statement and other sources in its defense and agree that the sentence is little more than WP:OR and WP:SYN. The sources for that WP:OR originate from pro-GMO industry biased writers like Pamela Ronald and Jon Entine (and his Genetic Literacy Project). These problems exist regardless of conflicted commentary in the old RfC, which had numerous valid objections, was not even close to unanimous, which even the closer noted was less than conclusive about the use of the sources. The closer also noted concerns with bias and balance that were oft repeated in that RfC, before and after that RfC. Above GrayDuck156 said "Please note that I think some of the comments in this thread have become a little off topic." I do want to respect that concern; however, in talking about whether the WHO statement can be used to support the sentence comes in the context of the RfC, the other sources, the WP:OR issues and the problem with undue weight, etc., so it is hard for me to discuss without considering the entire context that sentence is found which makes it so problematic and biased. Please also note previous concerns I raised here and LesVegas raised here, and sources I provided here that challenge the bogus "scientific consensus" statement. I will likely create a new topic just about the "scientific consensus" as I did previously, or we can continue here. David Tornheim (talk) 23:51, 29 May 2015 (UTC)
• As is discussed here, the evidence for the "broad scientific consensus" claim is very bad. The dateless authorless WHO FAQ especially so. GrayDuck is correct that this source makes direct statements against the claim at hand! As can be seen from the linked page, the WHO FAQ has been used to support the questionable "scientific consensus" claim for more than two years. These sources flagrantly violate the purported standards for reliable sources on medical issues (WP:MEDRS), while peer-reviewed literature reviews — e.g. Domingo & Bordonaba 2011 — are disregarded. Yet Wikiproject Medicine, despite numerous red flags (ping User:Doc James ping User:SandyGeorgia) seems unwilling to act. The reluctance to change the "scientific consensus" statement undermines the credibility of WikiProject Medicine and of Wikipedia as a whole, and represents a serious ethical issue. groupuscule (talk) 00:15, 30 May 2015 (UTC)

Yes, Groupuscule. Science-based editors follow the science. It is apparently time to affirm the RfC we already had. Anew for each generation (and remnants of the old who cannot drop the stick....) Jytdog (talk) 00:59, 30 May 2015 (UTC)

Your RfC is unnecessarily confusing, and distracts from my main point here, and what seems to be one of the overall general points in this thread, which is the wall of citations. --Tsavage (talk) 03:51, 30 May 2015 (UTC)

So what are we expected to do here, just tell Jytdog how brilliant he is and how foolish we were to question the inclusion of the WHO citation? He has not made a serious attempt at discussing the issue with an open mind. He has not provided any quotation on that web page that is equivalent to the sentence it purports to substantiate, nor has he explained why he thinks the WHO FAQ lends support to the sentence (to say nothing about whether it does so without violating the synthesis rule). The onus is clearly on Jytdog to continue this discussion without insulting attempts at premature conclusion ("I suggest you drop the stick"). GrayDuck156 (talk) 15:59, 30 May 2015 (UTC)

Please discuss content, not contributors. You started a thread on a specific source; others took it to the broader discussion of the consensus statement as a whole. That happens here. Let's see where things stand on the bigger question and if you still believe you are right we can address that next. Jytdog (talk) 19:53, 30 May 2015 (UTC)

The FAQ WHO page never claims that there is a scientific consensus on whether GM foods are as safe as conventional foods and, considering their partnership with the United Nations Environment Programme on the contradictory International Assessment of Agricultural Knowledge, Science and Technology for Development, published in 2009, I doubt that is how the WHO meant for their page to be interpreted. The assessment reports that there are a limited number of properly designed and independently peer-reviewed studies on human health related to GM food. It also notes that, of the limited numbers of studies published, some have found adverse effects. This partnership suggests that the WHO would not agree with your evaluation of their FAQ page and, even if that is what they meant to say, the UN assessment points out that such a conclusion of consensus is wrong. If you all have been so confused about how the WHO feels on this issue, why don't you just send them an email instead of applying your personal interpretations to their page? Their contact form is here: http://www.who.int/about/contact_form/en/ 66.169.76.198 (talk) 07:48, 31 May 2015 (UTC)

RfC - "The scientific consensus holds that currently marketed GM food poses no greater risk than conventional food."

In 2013 we had an RfC, here, that upheld challenges to the scientific consensus statement below (presented with its full paragraph):

A broad scientific consensus holds that currently marketed GM food poses no greater risk than conventional food. No reports of ill effects have been documented in the human population. In 2012, the American Association for the Advancement of Science stated that "consuming foods containing ingredients derived from GM crops is no riskier than consuming the same foods containing ingredients from crop plants modified by conventional plant improvement techniques." The American Medical Association, the National Academies of Sciences and the Royal Society of Medicine have stated that no adverse human health effects related to GM food have been reported and/or substantiated in peer-reviewed literature to date.

References

That statement undergoes constant challenge, so it is perhaps time to review it again. The question: Do the sources support the content? Jytdog (talk) 01:01, 30 May 2015 (UTC)

Additional comment: A current issue is with the use of a large number of citations to support the summary/conclusion of "broad scientific consensus." If this is clearly stated in solid secondary sources, it should take one or two citations to establish, not a dozen or more. Citation overkill, conveying an impression of biased content, and synthesis of at least some of these sources (WP:RS/AC), are specific issues central to this RfC. --Tsavage (talk) 04:02, 30 May 2015 (UTC)

Survey

• Support This is a politically hot topic; and people are emotional about food. But the science is clear, and the sources support the content. No science has emerged since 2013 that changes the scientific consensus. Jytdog (talk) 01:08, 30 May 2015 (UTC)
• Support The broad scientific consensus about the safety of GM foods is clear. The consensus for the inclusion on the material of this stands. I was unable to find any major scientific evidence suggesting that this has changed since 2013. Instead I have found a 2015 Pew Research Center study that found that the percentage of AAAS scientists which agree that GM Foods are safe (88%) is even higher than the percentage that agree that humans are causing global warming (87%).[2] 88% of scientists is enough to establish a broad scientific consensus on top of the sources already provided. Winner 42 Talk to me! 01:54, 30 May 2015 (UTC)
  • If you believed that the sources supported the content, why did you feel the need to search for additional support? GrayDuck156 (talk) 16:25, 30 May 2015 (UTC)

Because it's more recent and those editors who disagree continue to raise the subject? Lfstevens (talk) 22:35, 30 May 2015 (UTC)

• Support the discussion of GMOs covers a broad range of issues, but safety to human health isn't one of them, and the scientific consensus continues to hold that current marketed GMOs have no novel risks to human health.TypingAway (talk) 02:06, 30 May 2015 (UTC)
• Comment If it takes (by my count) 18 19 sources to support "broad scientific consensus," something is wrong. If we could reduce that to the best two or three, it should be relatively simple to determine if support is there. --Tsavage (talk) 04:19, 30 May 2015 (UTC)
• Question and comment Do any of these sources specifically say what WP is saying? If the phrase "broad scientific consensus" does not exist in any of the refs, we cannot use it per SYNTH and OR. If there is a strong source for this phrase, we can use just the one or two sources using it. No RfC can override these basic rules of WP. We don't get to summarize and come up with novel conclusions. Further, I wonder if anyone has done the work of investigating whether the sources used are what we would consider independent. petrarchan47คุก 04:33, 30 May 2015 (UTC)
• No Support via No scientific consensus on GMO safety: A broad community of independent scientific researchers and scholars challenges recent claims of a consensus over the safety of genetically modified organisms (GMOs). In the following joint statement, the claimed consensus is shown to be an artificial construct that has been falsely perpetuated through diverse fora. Irrespective of contradictory evidence in the refereed literature, as documented below, the claim that there is now a consensus on the safety of GMOs continues to be widely and often uncritically aired. There is no consensus, and WP cannot continue to air this claim. petrarchan47คุก 05:33, 30 May 2015 (UTC)

That source carries no weight against sources supplied in support of the overwhelming consensus that GM foods are just as safe as the genetically modified foods humans have been consuming for thousands of years. — ArtifexMayhem (talk) 07:08, 30 May 2015 (UTC)

Now we have two sources. One a survey of AAAS and another an organized statement of a group of critics. I'd say the survey has to be counted more trustworthy. And that's in addition to the other, earlier sources. Is there a countering survey that supports the critique? Lfstevens (talk) 22:35, 30 May 2015 (UTC)

I'm thinking you didn't read the source. And you are showing a lack of understanding about what genetically modified foods are. Hybridized foods have been around thousands of years, but GMOs were born in a lab in the 90's. The source above should be read with great care, as these 300 scientists and doctors have called out Wikipedia specifically in the document. See reference 16, and note their mentions of an "Internet website". This is a serious black eye for WP. petrarchan47คุก 08:44, 30 May 2015 (UTC)

Think what you will, the source remains worthless nonetheless. And no, it's not my lack of understanding that is showing. — ArtifexMayhem (talk) 12:18, 30 May 2015 (UTC)

Remember this discussion isn't about whether GMOs are or are not safe or whatever. It's about what the scientific community has concluded, if anything. Lfstevens (talk) 22:35, 30 May 2015 (UTC)

As of this January, the referenced letter "No Scientific Consensus on GMO Safety" has been published in the peer-reviewed journal Environmental Sciences Europe so, mdash, I do not think that your opinion of this letter as "worthless" is warranted. The letter also points out that the review "A Decade of EU-funded GMO Research" fails to provide "evidence for sweeping claims about the safety of any single GM food or of GM crops in general" because none of the studies cited in the review tested commercialized GM food or studied effects for a period longer than 90 days. This EU review is used to support the claim that "food on the market derived from GM crops poses no greater risk to human health than conventional food" in the introduction to this article, and so the EU review should be removed from the list of citations supporting that claim.

If your point of disagreement with the "No Scientific Consensus" letter is because it is a letter (now published in a peer-reviewed journal) rather than a study, please note that I discuss the reasons why scientists have frequently been unable to legally study and publish health studies related to GM food further down in the discussion. The issue of scarce independent health studies on GM food is also noted by the United Nations Environment Programme in their International Assessment of Agricultural Knowledge, Science and Technology for Development, published in 2009. 66.169.76.198 (talk) 00:12, 31 May 2015 (UTC)

• support sources support the content--Ozzie10aaaa (talk) 10:02, 30 May 2015 (UTC)
• Support: Sources seem to support the statement. Petrarchan's source merits consideration; however I'd like to see some more studies supporting it to dispel concerns about due weight. Plus, it seems to talk more about reliability concerns of the current research (which don't necessarily invalidate it) and less about the contested statement. Jo-Jo Eumerus (talk) 10:27, 30 May 2015 (UTC)
• Oppose / not sure I have not followed this issue so do not know all of the context, nor do I know the sources so well, but I expect that "A broad scientific consensus holds that currently marketed GM food poses no greater risk than conventional food" is not an accurate reflection of the sources. What I would expect to see is a claim that ""A broad scientific consensus holds that currently marketed GM food poses no greater risk for an individual to eat than conventional food". I think the intention here is to focus on the safety of including GM food in an individual person's diet, and I think the scientific consensus is that there is no distinction between GM food and conventional food at the level of the individual. I do not recognize that level of scientific agreement concerning all other aspects of genetically modified food, including those listed at Genetically_modified_food_controversies#Environment which have nothing to do with its safety to eat. Blue Rasberry (talk) 10:48, 30 May 2015 (UTC)

Bluerasberry the statement is only meant to be about eating (e.g. the version of this in the lead of the GM food controversy article, says "While there is concern among the public that eating genetically modified food may be harmful, there is broad scientific consensus that food on the market derived from these crops poses no greater risk to human health than conventional food." I agree that this is a more clear statement. I do think the paragraph is very clear that it is about eating food, and not the many other issues that are controversial (e.g environment, market dynamics, etc). But is that why you are opposing, b/c the sentence is not explicit enough, that it is about eating GM food? thx Jytdog (talk) 11:25, 30 May 2015 (UTC)

Jytdog Yes, my opposition is only for the lack of clarity that the consensus is about safety as nutrition for individuals. I think there is not scientific consensus of the safety of GM food as a societal food source considering environmental impact and social issues. Blue Rasberry (talk) 11:45, 30 May 2015 (UTC)

OK,Bluerasberry (sorry to keep pinging you - if you are watching this page let me know and i will stop) - would you be OK with the statement above from the GM food controversy article? If so I will amend; that is reaasonable. I believe the "support" votes have been directed to the 'safe-to-eat' idea, as many of them said. Jytdog (talk) 13:10, 30 May 2015 (UTC)

• Oppose The WHO web page does not contain a statement that is equivalent to the sentence it purports to substantiate. Nor does it claim that any subset of GMO foods pose "no greater risk to human health than conventional food." — Preceding unsigned comment added by GrayDuck156 (talk • contribs) 16:18, 30 May 2015 (UTC)
  • Do you have any thoughts on the other 7 sources used to substantiate that statement? TypingAway (talk) 17:29, 30 May 2015 (UTC)

• That is the same question we are asking of readers, to verify a sweeping statement like "broad scientific consensus" with a total of 19 cited sources. That's unreasonable. Big statement, solid source, else we have to find a more accessible way to summarize the research, satisfying both readability and reader verifiability. --Tsavage (talk) 01:11, 31 May 2015 (UTC)

• Support While I would prefer to use a quote from one of the sources rather than hammering out language intra-WP, I don't find a substantial reason to reject the current lanaguage. I would certainly entertain alternative proposaled language that the community could consider. Lfstevens (talk) 22:35, 30 May 2015 (UTC)
• Some revisions are desirable. The overall thrust of the statement, and the provision of many source citations, are accurate. However, sources like the AAAS statement attests to the safety of currently marketed GM food based on regulation of GM food, in particular, the requirement that added proteins be shown to be non-toxic and non-allergenic. This is a crucial dependency. There is no law of nature that would stop me from taking any toxin from any species (subject to compatibility of glycosylation and other processing) and putting it into a GM plant. It would be difficult, yes, and obviously it wouldn't pay outside of some very specialized and hopefully hypothetical marketplace, but in scientific terms, it is not impossible. For a realistic example, see [3]. More generally see pharming (genetics); the accidental diversion or contamination of crops isn't that far-fetched a scenario. To address this, 1) In front of "In 2012, the American Association for the Advancement of Science stated..." I would append "Noting United States regulations that require any added proteins be proven neither toxic nor allergenic, ..." 2) I'd prefer to add "the" in front of "currently marketed" to emphasize that a specific range of foods is addressed 3) considerable work could be done to make the focus of this article less U.S.-centric regarding toxicity - we should have sources in other paragraphs to address the question of whether anyone, anywhere on Earth is growing untested, potentially toxic GM foods and bringing them to markets. Wnt (talk) 01:35, 31 May 2015 (UTC)

all that stuff, is not about the subject sentence. (this is one of reasons why we get objections - people treat it, as though it says something it doesn't.) . pharming crops are not GM food. and the statement is not about any theoretical food, it is about currently marketed food. the limitation about US violates GLOBAL and is not accurate, as regulators around the world look at the same basic things. Jytdog (talk) 03:10, 31 May 2015 (UTC)

I'd like to reiterate that the statement you are referring to is not a sweeping claim of consensus from the AAAS. It was written by the AAAS Board of Directors and, considering that a group of scientists formally issued a letter of disagreement on a separate issue with the Board's statement, I see no reason to interpret the rest of the Board's letter as scientific evidence. The letter is neither a scientific literature review, nor a statement of official policy from the AAAS. 66.169.76.198 (talk) 08:58, 31 May 2015 (UTC)

The AAAS Board are speaking for the AAAS. We correctly represent this as a corporate statement. Guy (Help!) 09:49, 31 May 2015 (UTC)

My point in noting the letter of disagreement to that AAAS statement is to point out that a letter from a Board of Directors does not equate to agreement from the members of that society, This letter serves to prove what the board thinks, and nothing more. There was also a clear conflict of interest from the board, which published the letter shortly before a vote on a GM labeling bill in California. The chair of the board is Nina Federoff, previously a board member with the Sigma-Aldrich Chemical Company.66.169.76.198 (talk) 10:30, 31 May 2015 (UTC)

• Support: References 2, 4 and 7 are the strongest; the others could be folded into 8 as "other sources". Addition of watering-down text such as "currently marketed" is not NPOV. It suggests that the intuition of those who oppose GM foods is correct, and that evidence to support them must be out there somewhere. Roches (talk) 03:02, 31 May 2015 (UTC)

• Oppose I have laid out my argument against this claim, and the problems with those sources which I felt like reviewing, in the discussion. You can find my most extensive comment by searching for "In regards to your comment that this article is about actual GM food, Jytdog," 66.169.76.198 (talk) 08:16, 31 May 2015 (UTC)
• Support. Wikipedia reflects the world as it is, not as some people wish or fear it to be. I cannot find a single documented incident of provable harm in over three decades of routine use of GMOs, or any reputable scientific body that identifies any proven harm. I also find no evidence of any objectively quantifiable shift in scientific opinion away from safety since the last RfC. Opposition to golden rice has also exposed major flaws in the arguments of anti-GMO activists, showing that many of the sources which claimed to be based on science are, in fact, founded on irrational reaction to the idea of GMOs - which is one of the major factors that persuaded me to re-evaluate my own views. If anything the matter is clearer now than it was then and the nature of dissenting opinion more clearly identified as philosophical rather than scientific. Guy (Help!) 09:27, 31 May 2015 (UTC)

As I point out further down in the discussion, the ongoing issue regarding patent-blocking of health studies on GM foods-- an issue that the United Nations Environment Programme also comments on in their International Assessment of Agricultural Knowledge, Science and Technology for Development Academy of Nutrition and Dietetics-- explains the disconcerting lack of overall health studies on this issue, as well as, more specifically, the lack of rigorous studies showing the potential for adverse effects. This lack of study has been repeatedly quantified by Domingo and has been noted by the United Nations Environment Programme and the Academy of Nutrition and Dietetics, among others. These two agencies also state that there is no scientific consensus on whether GM foods are as safe as conventional foods. I have already linked these sources several times in this discussion, and as of yet have received no response from folks in support of the RfC claim.

I'd also like to point out that, despite this lack of study on health issues related to GM food, your failure to find "a single documented incident of provable harm in over three decades of routine use of GMOs" is questionable. These studies are not hard to find. Studies by Séralini and Carmen are easy reference points. These studies have been subjected to fierce rebuke but, as Séralini points out in a published letter in the Food and Chemical Toxicology journal, unscientific double standards have been applied to research that finds adverse health effects of GM food. If you question this letter, I invite you to review the Zhang and Hammond studies called into question by the letter, and compare their review process to that applied to the Séralini study. Further evidence suggesting that currently marketed GM food may cause adverse health impacts can be viewed here, and a study on the impact of financial conflicts of interest on GM food health studies can be found here. 66.169.76.198 (talk) 10:02, 31 May 2015 (UTC)

Discussion

This article is not called 'Currently marketed GMO food', and the use of that or a similar qualifier in the lede reads as intentional obfuscation / misleading framing. Using similar construction makes possible absurd statements of fact such as 'All Agent Orange currently on the market poses no greater risk to human health than conventional food.'Dialectric (talk) 01:23, 30 May 2015 (UTC)

The UN's International Assessment of Agricultural Knowledge, Science and Technology for Development 2009 Global Report, which is used as a source in this article, says, "There are a limited number of properly designed and independently peer-reviewed studies on human health (Domingo, 2000; Pryme and Lembcke, 2003). Among the studies that have been published, some have provided evidence for potential undesirable effects (Pryme and Lembcke, 2003; Pusztai et al., 2003). Taken together, these observations create concern about the adequacy of testing methodologies for commercial GM plants fueling public skepticism and the possibility of lawsuits." (p. 394)[4] Can anyone explain why its conclusions differ from those presented above? TFD (talk) 02:25, 30 May 2015 (UTC)

You realize these are really too old under WP:MEDRS? If this is used as a reference it should perhaps be replaced. Principal sources from 2000 and 2003 are surely too old, and there must have been a wealth of studies since. Johnbod (talk) 03:44, 30 May 2015 (UTC)

If you are claiming that a report from 2009 is "too" old, then do you agree that all of the sources with dates of 2009 listed above to support the "scientific consensus" should be stricken? If you are using WP:MEDRS to measure the quality of the statement, do you agree that the AAAS and AMA statements should be removed as potential sources, because these are not studies but political positions taken by their respective Board of Directors? If not, do you agree that other reliable sources that are not peer reviewed studies (or reviews) that are from entities such as Food & Water Watch, Greenpeace, [http://www.ensser.org/increasing-public-information/no-scientific-consensus-on-gmo-safety/ ENSSR} and similar organizations who are not GMO cheerleaders should have some say on this or any other statement about GMO's? Or are only those who support and defend GMO's allowed a voice in the reporting of GMO's? David Tornheim (talk) 05:06, 30 May 2015 (UTC)

If 2009 is the cut-off, then there should not be sources presented before then. And you still need to explain why what the UN said six years ago is no longer valid. For example, a source should say, "until six years ago, the science on GMO was unsettled, but scientific consensus was reached in 2010." The UN source is so authoritative, that you need a source that specifically addresses why it is wrong. TFD (talk) 07:20, 30 May 2015 (UTC)

TFD, responding to you above and to your follow up on my Talk page. Here is the picture as far as I understand it from the literature.

• there is the scientific consensus which is that currently marketed GM food is as safe as conventional food and sees no credible mechanism how currently marketed GM food even could be harmful. Standing on that spot, are most scientists, pretty much every regulatory agency, most farmers (who have adopted the technology), and the companies that make and sell the products. In this perspective, there is a keen awareness that it would be very possible to make GM food that could be harmful, but we are reasonably aware of the risks and the tests we have are good enough to weed out products that would be harmful (although better analytical tools are always wanted and welcome)
• Way over yonder you have some scientists, a huge and vocal online community, some advocacy organizations, and some members of the organics industry, that make wildly exaggerated claims about dangers of GM food, promote crazy mechanisms for toxicity (like "electron microscope organisms" somehow created by genetic modification process) and who almost never make a distinction between currently marketed GM food and any possible GM food product (e.g. who point up the dangers of allergens being introduced into the food supply - but that is a risk that is known and managed in the RW product development process and currently marketed GM foods do not appear to have any special allergenicity)
• You have a very few credible scientists - like Domingo - who take the view that while currently marketed GM food is ~probably~ OK, there are questions that need answering and we probably went too fast in disseminating the technology. There is a paragraph on his work in the GM controversies article (just search for "Domingo")
• In WP terminology, in my view, the first position is the mainstream that we present in WP's voice, the 2nd is FRINGE pseudoscience (sometimes just bad science), and the 3rd is, I think, a "significant minority voice". That is my own analysis. I made a proposal a while back on the Talk page of the GM Food controversies to discuss working this into the article but it didn't get much traction.
• With regard to the age of sources... GM food has been on the market now almost twenty years. There is no real debate in the mainstream scientific community about the technology or the relative safety of food, and there has been no good science done to raise any questions, since forever. The analogy aspartame, not, say questions about the PPAR inhibition (e.g thiazolidinediones) - see this pubmed search - plenty of recent reviews). So the relative safety of GM food is not a question that gets raised a lot in the scientific literature and the sources about the consensus are indeed older. Probably the most interesting scientific question out there, is "what would be the results of a credible, very long term feeding study?" There is a group called The Grace Project funded by the EU that has been running a project to plan and execute such a study. I hope they do run that. Jytdog (talk) 11:20, 30 May 2015 (UTC)

I think this RfC is, to a large extent, inappropriate because a good-faith attempt at resolving the dispute about the WHO citation has not yet occurred. According to https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Dispute_resolution, "Requests for Comment generally require that at least an effort be made to discuss the matter in question before making the request." Comments like "I suggest you drop the stick" do not pass for attempts at productive discussion.GrayDuck156 (talk) 15:08, 30 May 2015 (UTC)

These points might be slightly off-topic but I think might be useful for seeking a compromise. I have several concerns with the wording of the statement. First, the term "broad scientific consensus" seems unnecessarily ambiguous and subjective. The word "consensus" can mean anything from majority agreement to unanimity of opinion. Why not use a word that is not subject to multiple interpretations? The word "scientific" raises the question of whose opinion counts, which is a subjective determination. The word "broad" also has no precise, or even clear, meaning. Second, starting the sentence with the words "There is..." seems clumsy and obscures the subject of the sentence. GrayDuck156 (talk) 16:47, 30 May 2015 (UTC)

as i mentioned above: 1) please comment on content, not contributor. 2) the discussion above got much broader than your issue with the WHO source. hence the RfC. I think you will find that the community upholds the consensus statement about the relative safety of eating GM food, but we'll see. Jytdog (talk) 22:11, 30 May 2015 (UTC)

Jytdog, thanks for replying. The most recent review cited in the UN report was Pryme and Lembcke, 2003. I suppose what they said was accurate - few studies had been made, but since then the there have been lots of studies. The EU report for example reviews studies from to the period 2001-2010.

One of the studies mentioned in the UN report was Domingo 2000. Domingo published a review study in 2011 in Environment International, which says there is a balance between reports claiming currently consumed GMO foods are safe and those saying they are not.[5] His report shows 119 cites in Google scholar.[6]

Also, per MEDRS guidelines, some of the sources for the wording should be removed. For example, the Washington Post article does not meet MEDRS.

TFD (talk) 16:57, 30 May 2015 (UTC)

there are a few non-MEDRS sources in there, I agree. They are high-quality secondary sources that report on the fact of the scientific consensus, not on the content of that consensus. Jytdog (talk) 19:51, 30 May 2015 (UTC)

Here is a link to Domingo's 2011 review study. Why does it have less weight than a Washington Post article? TFD (talk) 22:47, 30 May 2015 (UTC)

see above. if you read the reliable sources, domingo has a minority position. the washington post source simply reports on the consensus, as i mentioned above. Jytdog (talk) 23:25, 30 May 2015 (UTC)

If (high quality) news media can evaluate and summarize scientific findings in this case, then presumably that should be so in most cases. Here, the single author of the Washington Post piece appears from her credits to be a food, science and health journalist with no scientific credentials, and the "consensus" she reports on is her own finding, using an "impartiality test" she has devised to determine which organizations seem to have taken sides and which seem neutral, by examining the ratio of risks to benefits each mentions - since explaining her method is central to her article and conclusion, I then have to determine if I agree with that method, and with the exclusions of presumably partisan organizations that she makes in determining consensus. It's all pretty confusing to me, and also illustrates the problem with too many cited sources: how is an editor, let alone a reader, expected to wade through all this - it would take hours? --Tsavage (talk) 01:55, 31 May 2015 (UTC)

• so the edits today by the 66... IP are typical of the POV-pushers who come by the GMO articles and bomb it. That is why we have the huge pile of sources. People feel so strongly about this. Jytdog (talk) 22:11, 30 May 2015 (UTC)

No, there is zero justification for SYNTH - you still have not shown one strong source which makes the claim you are trying to make in WPs voice. You have added a string of sources in violation of OR/SYNTH, and conveniently an IP shows up that you can use as an example of the great stress "anti-GMO" advocates out you through. There is no one on WP who feels as strongly as you about GMOs, given your contribs, so save it. This RfC came only days into a fruitful conversation and was uncalled for - what it did was obfuscate the conversation about the OR/SYNTH problem completely. petrarchan47คุก 09:09, 31 May 2015 (UTC)

Jytdog, you are correct, I do have a point of view on this subject. But I have no doubt that you do too, and it is unfair to dismiss my criticism on the basis of my point of view. This article is about GM food, not "currently marketed GM food," and acknowledging that there is no scientific consensus on the safety of GM food is a highly relevant piece of information that needs to be in the introduction. Furthermore, the above referenced letter notes that studies concluding that GM foods are as safe as conventional foods are often performed by researchers connected to GM companies with an interest in marketing their product. Additionally, in reading their discussion under "There is no consensus on GM food safety," it is clear that their statement is regarding currently marketed GM food.

So although my initial complaint was about the failure of this Wikipedia article to note a lack of scientific consensus on the safety of all GM food (versus currently marketed GM food), I'd also now like to point out that I think the statement about consensus on currently marketed GM food is not only misleading, but incorrect.

66.169.76.198 (talk) 22:39, 30 May 2015 (UTC)

My perspective on this is not relevant. WP is all about what the reliable sources say. WP has reported for several years now that there is a scientific consensus on the relative safety of eating GM food. You also raise a question about scope. The scope of this article is actual GM food, not theoretical GM food - its purpose is to inform readers about what they might actually encounter. This issue has been discussed on this talk page as well. it is a conversation we can have again, but please do read the discussions in the archives. (There is however general discussion of the risks in the GM food controversies article) Jytdog (talk) 23:30, 30 May 2015 (UTC)

I do not think anyone would claim that all GMO food is safe, just the GMO food currently sold. Obviously there are toxic plants (mushrooms, poison berries, etc.) so possibly conventional food could be engineered to produce toxins. TFD (talk) 23:37, 30 May 2015 (UTC)

_______________

In regards to your comment that this article is about actual GM food, Jytdog, that is precisely why I pointed out that the criticisms leveled in the published discussion "No scientific consensus on GM food safety" are referring to currently marketed GM food. There is no scientific consensus on the safety of currently marketed GM food.

The letter attests to this, and lays out a clear argument against such claims. The main point of criticism that I anticipate is "Why did these scientists choose to sign a letter rather than simply conduct further food safety research to prove their point?" I agree that research would certainly be the preferable option to a letter. The problem, however, largely has to do with patent law on GM seeds. In order to conduct a study on potential health impacts of GM food, researchers need to control all conditions related to how the selected crop to be studied was grown. This means they need to get the original seed. However, patent law largely restricts researchers from accessing this seed without first receiving permission from the company that produces it. Problems arising from this include allegations that the company selectively denies permission based on anticipated results, as well as researchers being required to sign contracts stating that they will submit their results to the biotech company for approval before publishing the results.

The problem this creates for independent research, a problem that has also been noted by the United Nations Environmental Programme, was brought to the attention of the EPA in 2009, when a group of 29 scientists stated that "as a result of restricted access, no truly independent research can be legally conducted on many critical questions regarding the tech­nol­ogy." In response, the American Seed Trade Association agreed to offer blanket research agreements to all public universities. This agreement allows public university researchers to access GM seeds for studies on subjects such as agronomics, yield and pest management. It does not, however, open up research access for health-related studies. Instead, the biotech industry, which has a clear vested interest in the results of studies examining whether there are health risks associated with GMOs, retains the ability to limit who can study this issue, and how those studies are carried out. Regardless of whether our ongoing discussion concludes that there is scientific consensus or not, this narrative of restricted research is important and, in order for this article to avoid presenting a biased claim, this information should be added to the article.

Restricted research has had a clear impact on the total number of health-related studies on GM food. Jose L Domingo published several papers regarding this issue, all of which concluded that there is scant scientific literature on the human health risks of GM foods, let alone whether they are equivalent in risk to non-GM foods. His most recent study, published in 2011 in Environmental International, "A literature review on the safety assessment of genetically modified plants," found that although there continue to be scant studies on the human health risks of GM foods, there is a balance between those that do and do not find risk. You say that Domingo has a minority position. I can think of a certain letter signed by at least 300 scientists who would disagree... What's more, his position does not discount the quantitative content of his claim. The very bulk of scientific literature on the subject-- the scientific literature that this article is presumably referring to when it cites a "scientific consensus"-- does not in fact demonstrate a scientific consensus. This problem is, of course, in addition to the fact that the citations on WP consensus claim either do not actually support this claim (AMA, WHO) or are poor objective sources (the AAAS Board of Directors letter, which was refuted by a group of scientists for unrelated reasons). A cursory glance at the National Academies study also did not support this claim. Feel free to let me know which page to check.

The United Nations Environment Programme also disagrees that Domingo's review should be discredited as a "minority position." In their International Assessment of Agricultural Knowledge, Science and Technology for Development, published in 2009, they cite his review when noting that there are a limited number of properly designed and independently peer-reviewed studies on human health related to GM food. They also note that, of the limited numbers of studies published, some have found adverse effects. If you consider yourself to have more authority on the relevancy of Domingo's work than the UN, I invite you to make this claim directly. And interestingly enough, the WHO was a co-partner on this publication..... That citation referencing the WHO FAQ needs to go.

I also checked out your citation of the American Medical Association's "Report 2 of the Council on Science and Public Health" (the link you provide does not work, by the way) and this source also does not support the claim that there is a scientific consensus on that GM food on the market is just as conventional food. Instead, they merely note how the claim of substantial equivalence is made. The FDA reviews a safety assessment created by the producer of that GM crop, in which the producer assesses whether the GM crop "possesses similar levels and variations of critical nutrients and toxicants as its conventional counterpart." The AMA then goes on to say that there is an ongoing effort to improve abilities to detect toxicants and other unintended effects. There are important questions to ask here, including which toxicants are studied, and whether the adverse health effects reported in scientific literature, if true, are related to toxicants or some other factor. And as the ongoing issue with chemical safety in the U.S. demonstrates, there is a significant potential for bias when the producer of a product is the same group doing the safety review. It is irresponsible and, as with the WHO FAQ citation, blatantly false to hold up this source as evidence of scientific consensus.

The Academy of Nutrition and Dietetics also states that there is no consensus on whether GM food has negative health effects, and cites the need for further study of this issue.

All of this further presses the point that it is inaccurate for this Wikipedia article to say that there is a consensus on the issue. As far as I can tell, I am citing peer-reviewed studies and major sources of public policy which explicitly say there is no consensus. This article, on the other hand, misinterprets sources that more often than not do not claim consensus, or in some cases are questionably subjective (such as the AAAS Board of Directors letter). 66.169.76.198 (talk) 04:23, 31 May 2015 (UTC)

______________

Jytdog, I do not see why I have to read through 20 sources - can you please id the most reliable source, saying where it says what, and we can compare it with the review study. Also, review studies are the most reliable sources per medrs. Ideally you should present a review study. TFD (talk) 01:12, 31 May 2015 (UTC)

you don't need' to. They are roughly in order of importance. Sources 3 and 5 should probably be switched. but you can stop reading sources as soon as you are satisifed, and if you reach the end and are still not satisfied, you are a True Believer and there is nothing to be done for such a person anyway. At what point do you think the sourcing is sufficient? Jytdog (talk) 03:21, 31 May 2015 (UTC)

The RfC is not about whether GMOs are safe, but whether sources support the statement that broad scientific consensus exists in RS. There is no reason to argue about whether WP:SYNTH is suddenly acceptable: it isn't.

A review from January 2015 concludes that there is no consensus on whether GMOs are safe OR dangerous - the consensus is that there is much to know, and that proper studies have not been conducted.

Hilbeck et al. Environmental Sciences Europe (2015) No scientific consensus on GMO safety

For decades, the safety of GMOs has been a hotly controversial topic that has been much debated around the world. Published results are contradictory, in part due to the range of different research methods employed, an inadequacy of available procedures, and differences in the analysis and interpretation of data. Such a lack of consensus on safety is also evidenced by the agreement of policymakers from over 160 countries - in the UN's Cartagena Biosafety Protocol and the Guidelines of the Codex Alimentarius - to authorize careful case-by-case assessment of each GMO by national authorities to determine whether the particular construct satisfies the national criteria for ‘safe’. Rigorous assessment of GMO safety has been hampered by the lack of funding independent of proprietary interests. Research for the public good has been further constrained by property rights issues, and by denial of access to research material for researchers unwilling to sign contractual agreements with the developers, which confer unacceptable control over publication to the proprietary interests. The joint statement developed and signed by over 300 independent researchers, and reproduced and published below, does not assert that GMOs are unsafe or safe. Rather, the statement concludes that the scarcity and contradictory nature of the scientific evidence published to date prevents conclusive claims of safety, or of lack of safety, of GMOs. Claims of consensus on the safety of GMOs are not supported by an objective analysis of the refereed literature

...the claimed consensus on GMO safety does not exist outside of the above depicted internal circle of stakeholders. The health, environment, and agriculture authorities of most nations recognize publicly that no blanket statement about the safety of all GMOs is possible and that they must be assessed on a case-by-case basis. Moreover, the claim that it does exist - which continues to be pushed in the above listed circles - is misleading and misrepresents or outright ignores the currently available scientific evidence and the broad diversity of scientific opinions among scientists on this issue. petrarchan47คุก 03:33, 31 May 2015 (UTC)

Jytdog, to better participate in this discussion, you too should comment on the content, rather than the contributor. I would also like to point out that, in addition to the cited WHO page explicitly not supporting the claim that there is consensus, the statement from the AAAS Board of Directors is also problematic. This was not a review of the scientific literature or an official policy; this was a statement made by a small group of people. And, though not addressing whether or not there is consensus on the issue, a group of scientists issued a letter in disagreement with the AAAS Board, which further calls in to question the validity of using the AAAS Board of Directors statement as a source for the claim that there is consensus. 66.169.76.198 (talk) 05:13, 31 May 2015 (UTC)

Jytdog, that is really offensive. I am not a "true believer." I think however we should follow reliable sources policy and MEDRS guidelines, which means we should report what review studies say rather than newspaper articles. Can you please identify the source that I am supposed to accept instead of the review study and mention a page no. so I do not have to read through dozens of pages.

In the aspartame articles, you and I always agree on the types of sources that should be used - why is this article different?

BTW I have no opinion on whether GMO foods are safe or what the scientific consensus is. But I would like to discuss the sources.

TFD (talk) 06:30, 31 May 2015 (UTC)

TFD, I provided a more extensive breakdown of the problems with the current citations used by Jytdog above, as well as references to sources and reviews which conclude that there is no scientific consensus on this issue. 66.169.76.198 (talk) 07:24, 31 May 2015 (UTC)

Notices

Notices posted in the following places:

• Talk:Genetically_modified_food_controversies#RfC_on_consensus_statement_of_relative_safety_of_currently_marketed_GM_food
• Talk:Genetically_modified_crops#RfC_on_consensus_statement_of_relative_safety_of_currently_marketed_GM_food
• Talk:Genetic_engineering#RfC_on_consensus_statement_of_relative_safety_of_currently_marketed_GM_food
• Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Medicine#RfC_on_consensus_statement_of_relative_safety_of_currently_marketed_GM_food
• Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Food_and_drink#RfC_on_consensus_statement_of_relative_safety_of_currently_marketed_GM_food
• User_talk:Jimbo_Wales#RfC_on_consensus_statement_of_relative_safety_of_currently_marketed_GM_food
• WP:No_original_research/Noticeboard#RfC_on_consensus_statement_of_relative_safety_of_currently_marketed_GM_food since issues of WP:SYN were raised
• WP:Fringe_theories/Noticeboard#RfC_on_consensus_statement_of_relative_safety_of_currently_marketed_GM_food