Talk:Neurodiversity

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Neurodiversity

Moved from User talk:SandyGeorgia.

Dear SandyGeorgia:

Thank you for monitoring the Neurodiversity article. You removed most of the Evaluative Diversity section as "off topic" because it has its own article. I appreciate edits, but please do not remove so much--it is not off topic: on the contrary, evaluative diversity may be the most important form of neurodiversity. 24.177.114.22 (talk) 13:17, 6 January 2015 (UTC)

Evaluative diversity has its own article, so does not need to be re-examined in depth at neurodiversity. Unless, if as you say, Evaluative diversity is the most important form of neurodiversity, then one of them should be merged to the other. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 20:52, 6 January 2015 (UTC)

I will make a fuss about fairness if the topic of evaluative diversity is not considered on par with that of the autism movement which is another subset of neurodiversity and discussed in depth in the neurodiversity article despite having its own article. Evaluative diversity research makes significant contributions to our understanding of neurodiversity, so I think the neurodiversity article should include the following cited facts (though feel free to better phrase them):

• Neurodiversity (as evaluative diversity) has been shown mathematically and empirically to have social value.

Weisberg, Michael; Muldoon, Ryan (2009). "Epistemic Landscapes and the Division of Cognitive Labor". Philosophy of Science. 76: 225–252. doi:10.1086/644786.

Hong, Lu; Page, Scott E. (2001). "Problem Solving by Heterogeneous Agents". Journal of Economic Theory. 97: 123–163. doi:10.1006/jeth.2000.2709.

Wilde, Douglass J (1997). "Using student preferences to guide design team composition". Proceedings of DETC ’97. {{cite conference}}: Unknown parameter |booktitle= ignored (|book-title= suggested) (help)

• A survey of religious and philosophical doctrines finds all major doctrines to be on the side of neurodiversity (as evaluative diversity).

Santos-Lang, Christopher (2014). "Moral Ecology Approaches to Machine Ethics". In van Rysewyk, Simon; Pontier, Matthijs (eds.). Machine Medical Ethics (PDF). Switzerland: Springer. pp. 111–127. doi:10.1007/978-3-319-08108-3_8.

• The impact of discrimination against neurodiversity (as evaluativism) was recently measured to outpace both classism and racism.

Haidt, Jonathan; Rosenberg, Evan; Hom, Holly (2003). "Differentiating Diversities: Moral Diversity Is Not Like Other Kinds". Journal of Applied Social Psychology. 33 (1): 1–36. doi:10.1111/j.1559-1816.2003.tb02071.x.

• Bias against neurodiversity (as evaluativism) is implicit (i.e., we discriminate even when we try not to).

Mueller, Jennifer S.; Melwani, Shimul; Goncalo, Jack A. (2012). "The Bias Against Creativity: Why People Desire but Reject Creative Ideas". Psychological science. 23 (1): 13–17. doi:10.1177/0956797611421018.

• Wage disparity has been found between certain neurological (evaluative) types.

Glomb, Theresa; Kammeyer-Mueller, John; Rotundo, Maria (2004). "Emotional labor demands and compensating wage differentials". Journal of Applied Psychology. 89 (4): 700–714. doi:10.1037/0021-9010.89.4.700.

• Conflicts over neurodiversity are inevitably political because diversity of political orientations comes from neurodiversity (as evaluative diversity).

Schreiber D1; et al. (2013). "Red brain, blue brain: evaluative processes differ in Democrats and Republicans". PLoS ONE. 8 (2): e52970. doi:10.1371/journal.pone.0052970. PMC 3572122. PMID 23418419. {{cite journal}}: Cite has empty unknown parameter: |author-separator= (help); Explicit use of et al. in: |author2= (help); Unknown parameter |displayauthors= ignored (|display-authors= suggested) (help)CS1 maint: numeric names: authors list (link) CS1 maint: unflagged free DOI (link)

Brandt, Mark; Reyna, Christine; Chambers, John; Crawford, Jarret; Wetherell, Geoffrey (2014). "The Ideological-Conflict Hypothesis Intolerance Among Both Liberals and Conservatives". Current Directions in Psychological Science. 23 (1): 27–34. doi:10.1177/0963721413510932.

These research achievements are tools and milestones for the neurodiversity movement. A neurodiversity article which lacked these citations would be incomplete. I also think it is important to diffuse the criticism that "neurodiversity" is poorly named: it is intended to refer to cognitive differences which happen to manifest neurologically in humans but manifest via other mechanisms in machines (i.e., what causes us to discriminate against people with Aspergers would also cause us to discriminate against artificial intelligences which lack empathy). Let's just admit that the name is historical, but may extend to computers as well. Langchri (talk) 13:14, 7 January 2015 (UTC)

As just one (there are others) of the problems with the proposed text, PMID 23418419 is a primary source that shouldn't be cited anywhere on Wikipedia, and it never mentions the word neurodiversity (original research). Evaluative diversity probably needs cleanup. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 14:25, 7 January 2015 (UTC)

I would be happy to add secondary sources. Do you agree that these ideas belong in this article? Langchri (talk) 00:40, 9 January 2015 (UTC)

@Langchri: Are these comments about articles on the science, or the social movements? Confusing the two is clearly not going to lead to good articles. LeadSongDog come howl! 16:48, 8 January 2015 (UTC)

@LeadSongDog: Thanks for teaching me to ping--that's useful! If you were researching the neurodiversity movement for a school report, you might turn to this article, and your teacher might expect you to report on both the history of the movement and whether you think it is likely to grow in the future, so you would want this article to include answers to questions like, "What evidence can you cite that neurodiversity is valuable?" and "What measurements have been made so far of discrimination on the basis of neurotype?" If the science has been done, then I think this article should indicate that it exists (and how to find it)--That's our goal: to make a useful encyclopedia.

The other part of what was removed (not copied above) was to mention evaluative diversity as a form of neurodiversity and link to the article (much as this article treats autism). I have not been able to find any sources indicating that there is any controversy over whether neurodiversity includes evaluative diversity--I think anyone familiar with both terms would think it does. Both terms are relatively new, so it is not surprising that we find no source that uses both, but we do find sources which contain both concepts: My original addition included: "Simon Baron-Cohen concluded that discrimination against Asperger syndrome/high-functioning autism can be mere discrimination against evaluative diversity (e.g., against evaluation not swayed by empathy)."Baron-Cohen, Simon (2000). "Is Asperger syndrome/high-functioning autism necessarily a disability?". Development and Psychopathology. 12 (3): 489–500. doi:10.1017/s0954579400003126. It also included sources to support the claim that evaluative diversity includes the disparity between evaluation that is swayed by empathy and not swayed by empathy, and other sources are already cited to indicate that neurodiversity includes Asperger syndrome/high-functioning autism. Langchri (talk) 00:40, 9 January 2015 (UTC)

sorry, but does that address my question? LeadSongDog come howl! 01:22, 9 January 2015 (UTC)

@LeadSongDog: you asked if the removed material was about the science or the social movement. The part about evaluative diversity being a form of neurodiversity is not about the science. The other statements are about scientific achievements which are milestones for the movement. ...so both parts are about the movement. Langchri (talk) 03:14, 9 January 2015 (UTC)

Langchri, from your recent edits at Evaluative diversity, it appears that a review of WP:PSTS and WP:MEDRS may be helpful. For example, the entire sections on Genetics and Neurological in that article are also based on primary sources, without a single secondary review used. I am not interested in doing the cleanup over there, but this article has long been kept correctly sourced. Before adding content to this article, please be sure you understand sourcing policy and guidelines on Wikipedia, and please be sure to use sources that are actually about the topic. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 07:33, 9 January 2015 (UTC)

And a new issue: the author of most of the published information on Evaluative diversity appears to be a Christopher Santos-Lang, while the main editor of the Evaluative diversity article is a Wikipedia editor, Langchri, raising the issue of WP:COI, in addition to copyvio issues surrounding this source, mentioned at Talk:Evaluative diversity by Langchri as being published before the Wikipedia article. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 16:05, 9 January 2015 (UTC)

Is the complaint just about primary sources, or about something deeper? Any works citing the sources named above would qualify (by definition) as secondary research, and Google Scholar reports many such works, so it seems easy to resolve the source concern by substituting those other sources. I would be happy to do that work and re-post, but my intention is to be helpful, rather than combative, so please tell me upfront whether that would be interpreted as an attack.

I thought the Baron-Cohen article is a notable reliable published secondary source making the argument that it would be better to protect people who have Asperger syndrome/high-functioning autism from discrimination without actually forcing them to get diagnosed and labelled, but that such protection would be impossible without preventing discrimination against people on the basis of how they conduct the evaluative aspect of decision-making. In other words, preventing evaluativism should be a goal of the neurodiversity movement. That would make the evaluative diversity article relevant here. If the community here thinks this misrepresents the neurodiversity movement, however, I will let the neurodiversity movement better define itself outside Wikipedia before posting any connection here. I can understand why people who want to shape the identity of the neurodiversity movement might serve as editors here, and I am not trying to compete with that. Langchri (talk) 19:52, 10 January 2015 (UTC)