User talk:Tonusamuel

Welcome

Hello, Tonusamuel and Welcome to Wikipedia! Thank you for your contributions to this free encyclopedia. If you decide that you need help, check out Getting Help below, ask me on my talk page, or place {{helpme}} on your talk page and ask your question there. Please remember to sign your name on talk pages by using four tildes (~~~~) or by clicking if shown; this will automatically produce your username and the date. Also, please do your best to always fill in the edit summary field with your edits. Below are some useful links to facilitate your involvement. Happy editing! Aboutmovies (talk) 07:22, 28 January 2012 (UTC) Getting started A tutorial • Our five pillars • Getting mentored How to: Edit a page • Upload and use images • Create your first article Intuitive guide to Wikipedia • Article Creation Wizard Getting help Frequently asked questions • Tips Where to ask questions or make comments Request administrator attention Help desk: A Wiki Styled page to ask questions on Help directory: A comprehensive list-style help contents page Policies and guidelines Neutral point of view • No original research Verifiability • Reliable sources • Citing sources What Wikipedia is not • Biographies of living persons List of policies • Three-revert rule • Sock puppetry Copyrights • Policy for non-free content • Image use policy External links • Spam • Vandalism • List of guidelines Deletion policy • Conflict of interest • Notability The community Build consensus • Resolve disputes Assume good faith • Civility • Etiquette No personal attacks • No legal threats Community portal • Village pump Signpost • IRC channels • Mailing lists Writing articles Be bold in editing • Develop an article The perfect article • Simplified manual of style Stubs • Categories • Disambiguation Peer review • Featured content Miscellaneous User pages • Talk pages Awards a registered contributor can achieve and award Clean up: General • Spam • Vandalism Join a WikiProject • Translation Useful templates • Tools • User scripts

Mart Laar

Hello, I'm Jeraphine Gryphon. Wikipedia is written by people who have a wide diversity of opinions, but we try hard to make sure articles have a neutral point of view. Your recent edit to Mart Laar seemed less than neutral to me, so I removed it for now. If you think I made a mistake, or if you have any questions, you can leave me a message on my talk page. Thank you. — Jeraphine Gryphon ^(talk) 16:31, 31 December 2012 (UTC)

I sourced material and this is fact, not opinion or point of discussion about neutrality. Just one user pointed out that someone if trying to filter only positive material and removed anything less than positive and he is right. This IS neutral. Please restore this or dispute source of fact, not my 1:1 description. Tõnu Samuel (talk) 17:23, 31 December 2012 (UTC)

Sorry, pressed wrong button while tried to write explanation under last edit~and commited again without explanation by mistake. Also if you look on your user page, you see more reason to dispute your decisions. I can show multiple users who agree of neutrality of this edit made by me. Tõnu Samuel (talk) 17:27, 31 December 2012 (UTC)

"Also if you look on your user page, you see more reason to dispute your decisions." What the hell is that supposed to mean? — Jeraphine Gryphon ^(talk) 17:59, 31 December 2012 (UTC)

From User:Jeraphine_Gryphon "This user is currently experiencing mental health issues, which may affect their Wikipedia editing in various ways. They may have difficulty with: altered perception when making editorial judgements, determining consensus, or reading Wikipedia discussions addressed to them;". About neutrality: You do not seem to understand Estonian language to understand topic. This thing is fact, not opinion of mine. Video of this available in http://www.delfi.ee/news/paevauudised/eesti/video-mart-laar-acta-kirjed-kadusid-sest-mul-sai-facebooki-ruum-otsa.d?id=63831002 plus Google for "Mart Laar ruum sai otsa" to see lot of other buzz he created. At moment this page is not neutral, looks like advertisement. All other thins are removed as "not neutral". Tõnu Samuel (talk) 18:04, 31 December 2012 (UTC)

Ma olengi eestlane. Your description of the issue is not neutral. (And there's no need to resort to personal attacks, just because I have that notice on my talk page doesn't mean I'm incapable of doing anything right.) I can't argue with you, I'll post about this on a noticeboard. — Jeraphine Gryphon ^(talk) 18:14, 31 December 2012 (UTC)

Hmm, I did not attacked you anyhow, just your page states that you may have altered perception and it looked like this. Because you seem to understand language, then you can help and make it "neutral" but at moment this is just fact, not opinion. Facts are not less or more neutral, they are facts. I have not altered it anyhow to look less or more nice or bad. Seriously. Tõnu Samuel (talk) 18:19, 31 December 2012 (UTC)

Facts can be presented/written about in different ways, your version seems deliberately biased to make him look bad. Yeah, everyone thought it was funny how he seemed to say that there's "not enough room" on Facebook, but here on Wikipedia we don't just laugh along with everyone else, we're supposed to be objective. It was just an unfortunate choice of words from him, the truth was probably that he had other people moderating his facebook page and he didn't really know why they deleted anything. — Jeraphine Gryphon ^(talk) 18:27, 31 December 2012 (UTC)

This is your viewpoint, not fact. Fact is he told this and this is verifiable. I do not take position if this made him look good or bad. Just you can see it was notable event as it was picked up by mainstream media plus internet society. If it made look him as fool - maybe. But this is not reason to remove this notable event from wikipedia. I have own opinion on all this but did not included it anywhere in reasons you pointed out. Tõnu Samuel (talk) 18:41, 31 December 2012 (UTC)

And now you seem to be bullying me with "I'm not sure right now what happened but it seems like the user replied to me on their talk page with a vague personal attack, and I don't have that kind of energy right now to continue to argue with him. — Jeraphine Gryphon (talk) 18:14, 31 December 2012 (UTC)". Real bad from you to use your admin powers against me. Tõnu Samuel (talk) 18:24, 31 December 2012 (UTC)

I'm not an admin. — Jeraphine Gryphon ^(talk) 18:27, 31 December 2012 (UTC)

I am happy with your edits now. I think this is constructive way to work and thankful for help. Tõnu Samuel (talk) 04:48, 4 January 2013 (UTC)

For me, the note on my talk page about mental health issues just means that I can't always get into arguments on Wikipedia or put in a full effort -- and that's what happened earlier, I wasn't ready to argue or to edit that paragraph to be more neutral. But I hope I've done the right thing by now. But I still felt personally attacked when you implied that anything I might ever say is invalid. — Jeraphine Gryphon ^(talk) 16:57, 4 January 2013 (UTC)

Without even specifically looking, I've found two instances of you being (overly) antagonistic towards Laar on the internet: once in a comment on an old blog post, and now in that very recent Wikipedia thread on his Facebook page. Of course you can do anything you want outside of Wikipedia and of course you're allowed to edit Wikipedia despite any opinions you might have, but -- I feel that you're primarily editing out of political motivation and you're overly biased (in that FB thread, you very directly accuse him of having paid editors on Wikipedia even though there's hardly any evidence for it). So please read this carefully: WP:BATTLEGROUND. — Jeraphine Gryphon ^(talk) 16:57, 4 January 2013 (UTC)

Yes, this is my own rule to do anything under my real name. So what I do is public and you and anyone else can have big picture. In case of any questions or open topics I am also ready to explain more and also ready to take responsibility for my words. From political viewpoint IRL is one of my closest and Keskerakond is farmost. But I hate lies and crooks and love truth. I am known to fight well for my views and they are not for sale. My first commit to this Mart Laar page was actually copy-paste of someone's else older commit. He told me that there is some information you just cannot post there. I tried and yes, it really works as described. Wikipedia editors are not all neutral. It is tendency that current main troll uses some IP only. If somebody wants to clean up something really ugly, http://et.wikipedia.org/wiki/Valve_Kirsipuu is maybe good place to start but nobody cares. About psychical stuff etc I know more that most people but I did not want to intentionally insult, just I happen to be very straight in saying. Most of people do not understand your user page content anyway, better to delete it. Just it looked weird when someone just wiped out my edit and I tried to see who, page says "this person is sick and unstable". Actually this page does not change your personality in any way but reduces weight of your actions, including your edits. I do not know how to explain this better. No insult! Really.

On http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Biographies_of_living_persons/Noticeboard#Mart_Laar I explained some points why I think here we may have orchestrated case. I am not sure too much about it yet but looks to much like it. Add http://www.ohtuleht.ee/102445 to readinglist and you get idea why I am suspicious.

I am going to read link you recommended me, I am not too deep in this topic, so many things are new. I think you may want to talk in direct with me, you find me in skype easily if interested to chat.

About first link you provided I think content is self explanatory. Mart Laar promised and broke his promise. I just try get answers. BTW, there is a "weird" change compared to some days ago. I see because I screenshot everything. Second link is Facebook. As you see again, question is highly liked by readers and ignored by Mart Laar. Comments include links to removals of any negative information. Positive is never censored like this on his page. This case got my attention and I work to restore balance and NPOV here. Seriously. Tõnu Samuel (talk) 19:02, 4 January 2013 (UTC)

(post removed) — Jeraphine Gryphon ^(talk) 22:04, 4 January 2013 (UTC)

I just want to say that we do not know but somehow some anonymous editors doing hard work protecting one and do not care about others. I come up with more info if and when I have this. All information I provided here is just to show why I have such question, this is not proof yet for anybody. Tõnu Samuel (talk) 02:01, 5 January 2013 (UTC)

Skandaal?

Deleting comments that you find inconvenient?[1] It's a big skandaal when comments disappear from Mart Laar's FB page but its okay for you? I find it seriously disturbing that someone would harass a person subject of a BLP like Mart Laar on his FB page because they do not like the state of his Wikipedia article. Jeraphine Gryphon summed it up perfectly:

"I think it's both inappropriate and paranoid. There's been no reason/cause/evidence to believe Laar is paying for WP edits, and it seems so out of line to randomly, directly accuse him of that, especially now. Didn't he have a stroke recently? Is he even politically active these days? Does he even check or care about his Facebook comments? To post about our editing issues here on WP to his FB seems like useless and embarrassing political dramamongering. — Jeraphine Gryphon (talk) 22:04, 4 January 2013 (UTC)"

Please take a deep breath and please reconsider whether your motives in editing the Mart Laar article are sufficiently rational. Thank you and goodbye. 87.208.192.123 (talk) 07:55, 5 January 2013 (UTC)