Talk:Mail art

Additions and deletions by George Kasey (Heartcalm22), 30 & 31 July 2012

Vittore Baroni and Keith Bates have reverted the Wikipedia Mail Art page to the version as of 7 June 2012 to remove the additions and erasures made by George Kasey posting as Heartcalm22.

We have both practised Mail Art for over 30 years and have never seen George Kasey's work in any mail art show or project.

Although the Mail Art Wikipedia page mentions Ray Johnson and inspirational Fluxus artists, the article steers clear of mentioning any mailartists since the rise of the movement for fear of appearing biased. We decided not to include any list of famous or notable mailartists, not only for reasons of impartiality but also so as not to suggest that there might be central characters or 'stars' in mail art. The naming of George Kasey is therefore totally incongruous to the spirit of the page, even if he were a well-known figure within the movement.

George Kasey removed the entire Bibliography section featuring works that have been meticulously chosen and added to over the last two years. He also removed almost all of the External Links that have again been carefully chosen for their relevance to the subject. Furthermore, he added self-promotional References that link to his own web sites.

Vittore Baroni and Keith Bates

Keithbates51 (talk) 18:40, 12 August 2012 (UTC)

Permission for Illustrations

Hello, The images I have uploaded to Wiki to accompany the new MAIL ART entry are pieces of Mail Art which have been given freely and intended for exhibition in myriad locations including display online. It is the nature of Mail Art. Works are sent as a gift, and implicit in that is the permission (indeed, the expectation) for the receiver to exhibit the work 'in the flesh' and/or display it on websites and blogs. All of the pieces I have uploaded are from the archives of myself (a mailartist for 30 years) or Mail Art historian, Vittore Baroni, all of the works have been gifted with the intention to have them shown.

I am nevertheless contacting again the artists whose works I have uploaded, asking them to submit their permissions directly to you. I understand you have received several of these already.

Where this becomes a problem is when artists have died and have no heirs to contact. This is the case with Norman Solomon who died in 2000. His piece – a xerox mail art piece on the reverse of a personal letter to myself (quite visible on the scan), was his gift to me in 1996 for a mail art show and I hope you will accept permission for use from myself, the person to whom the gift was made. There is no-one else to authorize Wiki use.

Keith Bates Keithbates51 (talk) 07:06, 18 September 2010 (UTC) keith@k-type.com

Cleopatra

Might state old maybe-joke saying that the first mail-art was when Cleopatra had herself delivered in a rolled-up carpet. --Daniel C. Boyer 15:31 15 Jul 2003 (UTC)

The Cleopatra thing is a light-hearted intro, but Mail Art began in the 1960s, what relevance has all the 19th century references? The article should really begin with Ray Johnson, or possibly Futurist experiments with mailing art. Keithbates51 (talk) 06:41, 10 August 2010 (UTC)

What is Mail art

What is Mail-Art for you?

Please state your name & answer:

This article should be a point of entry for anyone interested in Mail Art. Instead, it is patchy at best, at worst it is confusing, inaccurate and off-putting. The whole history section is NOT the history of Mail Art. Keith Bates, 3 August 2010

First paragraphs

First paragraphs are inaccurate as they are confused between first-day covers with cachets and postal stationary. --Daniel C. Boyer 15:28, 9 Feb 2004 (UTC)

And what relevance does any of this have to Mail Art, the movement and practice 1960 - 2010? Keithbates51 (talk) 06:36, 10 August 2010 (UTC)

Wired Return to Sender

It would seem to me that Wired magazine's "Return to Sender" section would be an expression of mail art. Someone might want to work that in, or maybe it goes better somewhere else. —User:Mulad (talk) 02:41, Sep 19, 2004 (UTC)

Uhh.. no, I'm not sure what you're talking about here, "Return to Sender" is common terminology in the postal industry unrelated to Mail Art, for all I know, the section in Wired has probably less to do with Mail Art and more to do with answering fanmail, possibly?--Mofomojo 06:32, 27 July 2006 (UTC)

"Return to Sender" is where people send in objects to Wired, and the best ones get published. It is definately mail art! Also, I added the link: mailart.info which is also mail art. it was deleted. it does not "promote" anyone. It is just a plain ol' Picasa album that shows about 3 years of correspondance. [-able][1]

CMA acronym

There are a sudden abundance of mentions of CMA and comparisons with ATCs, but nowhere does it was what CMA actually stands for - any ideas? MA are obviously Mail Art, but the C could stand for just about anything - collective? collectable? card?

Oops, and that was written by me, sheridan 15:19, August 25, 2005 (UTC)

I've been participating in Mail Art for 30 years and I've never heard the term CMA before reading this unrepresentative, inaccurate and far too narrow article. Keith Bates, 3 August 2010 —Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.159.103.177 (talk) 10:44, 3 August 2010 (UTC)

MAIL ART NETWORKING

Hello to all Mail Artists and those interested in Mail Art; and hello again to all those Mail Artists with whom I corresponded between 1994 and 2001. It's been a long time since cLASSwAR Karaoke prowled the network. I am, though, not back,as it were. Life has moved on and I am occupied,very much so,with making soundart, improvised experimental music, and with my little blog at http://murmurists.blogspot.com - check out please, if you like. I still think fondly of the network; and do hope that the Internet has not wholly replaced the postal system as a way for like-mindsto come together in some way. The exchange of actual objects may protect it to some extent I suppose! Anyway, to those who knew me, I got the PhD in Mail Art. Thing is, I put the thing together using very outdated software on a very old AppleMac - which is now dead! I do not even have a copy of it myself! It is, however, soon to be available via the British Library, for those who are interested. I still think what I said about Mail Art was valid and well-researched, and is likely, still, to be if not the best then amongst the best researches into the subject. See for yourself if you will. Enjoy! It was a labour of love, and nearly killed me with the amount of work involved! Love to you all. And if anyone knows how to edit the info on this particular bit of the Wikipedia, then, humbly, I ask to have my name - Dov - inclded in the listing of Mail Artists! Best wishes, Dov / cLASSwAR Karaoke x x x x x

FREE trade?

The sixth paragraph states: "As an art form the early genre produced low- and high-minded works ranging from the comic and satirical through commercial and industrial advertising to the promotion of social causes such as free trade, world peace and brotherhood, and the abolition of slavery." "Free" trade doesn't seem typically stated as part of the same agenda as world peace and brotherhood, etc. Might this mean "fair trade"? 68.35.112.165 06:40, 20 March 2006 (UTC)

Pruning links and artists

I just cut the list of artists in half, removing the red links. Sorry if this steps on your toes, but it was seriously getting out of control. In my opinion -- if you want on the page, get an article and make it stick. The list of links deserves a serious pruning as well, I'll support anyone willing to dive in. See WP:EL. All the best -- send stickers! ∴ here…♠ 22:11, 25 July 2006 (UTC)

Ironically mail art allows a wide participation. If you went by the numbers under this entry you'd come to the conclusion that the number of artists who use this medium is that of a small book clubLahtzu (talk) 20:09, 20 February 2009 (UTC)

HELP! - THIS IS AN EMBARRASSMENT This article on Mail Art does not reflect reality. Most mailartists accept the importance of Ray Johnson (the Father of Mail Art), is he mentioned in the article? It's pointless having such a big history going back to 19th century, mail art is a movement that started in the 1960s With Ray Johnson's New York Correspondance School (sik) To devote such a large section to ATCs is ludicrous, they are a tiny part of Mail Art, much less a part than Artistamps or rubberstamps which barely feature. What is CMA? I've participated in Mail Art for almost 30 years and never heard the term CMA apart from in this article! What is all that guff about envelope sizes and mechanical printing proccesses? It's all totally irrelevant. I've just tried adding some of the most important mailartists of recent decades and some of the most active now, my suggestions have immediately been cut. So you still have a poorly pared down, unrepresentative article about a vibrant, important, democratic art movement. Name more names, not less! Instead of pruning, this article should be more comprehensive to reflect the global, inclusive nature of Mail Art. It should also give new, would-be mailartists some real points of reference and needs to include a host of links to active mail art websites providing better histories and information about current Mail Art projects. Why not ask Vittore Baroni to write a proper article. He's one of the most important mailartists of the last 40 years (and a journalist) and even he doesn't even get a mention. Or ask former librarian John Held Jr., another giant of the movement who is totally ignored - he's also a comprehensive writer about Mail Art. Keithbates51 (talk) 06:41, 10 August 2010 (UTC)

Odd tangent

As one of the mailartists in Los Angeles in the early 1980s, I find it strange that the actual process of mailart (sending postcards and other objects through the US Postal Service as performance art) gets two sentences, while the rise of personal computers, the internet and using a printer to produce envelopes gets four or five paragraphs.

Also, the computer tangent comes prior to the two relevant sentences. The overall impression of the article is that mailart is primarily a phenomenon of the digital age, when this is emphatically not the case. The entire history of the movement from the 50s through the 80s is essentially ignored. I am not qualified to write the history myself as I have not been active in twenty-five years, but do feel that the omission is important and should be noted. Perhaps some of the old-school mailartists could contribute their expertise. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 75.177.163.235 (talk) 03:45, 7 January 2007 (UTC).

This article needs serious reworking overall, for the reasons you point out and more. Freshacconci 15:58, 22 February 2007 (UTC)

Proposed merge

I'm thinking this article can be stand alone. There's an extensive history to mail art which warrents an article. The current version needs major work, but I don't feel a merge is the solution. Freshacconci 16:00, 22 February 2007 (UTC).

I agree Mail-interviews has nothing to do with mail art see Envelope collective --Kylehamilton 00:03, 9 April 2007 (UTC)

The merge proposes that Mail-interviews be merged into this article Mail art. It absolutely should! Both Envelope collective and Mail-interviews appear to be directly related to Mail art. Mail-interviews appears to be a specific work, or collection of works, within the field. If it is unrelated, why would that article begin: ...the body of which are now recognized as an influential contribution in the field of mail art. Mail-interviews does not appear to warrent its own article without further development. Unless expanded, the options are deletion or merging, likely into Mail art. ∴ here…♠ 21:34, 9 April 2007 (UTC)

The concept of the mail-interviews is quite specific. I wouldn't consider it mail-art, but a large research project to discover the essence of communication (mail) as a medium in art. Merge of not. The Mail-Art article needs work anyway. To many stories are not included and the general line is somehow lost.

Ruud Janssen (see www.iuoma.org for contact-details)

Thanks for your comments Ruud, please do jump in and help improve the article! ∴ here…♠ 01:37, 14 June 2007 (UTC)

Punning

Would a round-robin collaboration involving armour designs be chain-mail art? Jackiespeel (talk) 15:19, 25 September 2009 (UTC)

Deletion of References to 'Hairmail' and Astroturf + important External Links

The specific references to 'hairmail' and 'astroturf' have no place in a general account of the media and techniques used by mailartists. These materials/actions were certainly not common or well-known amongst networkers. The External Links section includes only carefully chosen sites that will add to the understanding of the subject, it's been a useful additional resource for two years, please don't delete it. Keithbates51 (talk) 14:38, 9 November 2012 (UTC)

Wikipedia is WP:NOT supposed to serve as a directory of external links, and such links must comply with out guidelines. Please don't restore these links. - MrOllie (talk) 15:37, 9 November 2012 (UTC)

In undoing my alterations, you restored the inappropriate references to marketing (Mail Art is not about marketing) 'hairmail' and astroturf, which I presume you didn't intend to do. Most of the External Links had been in place since we wrote the entry and have provided useful additional sources of research. To delete all but the Open Directory link seems excessive and inconsistent, can we at least restore some of the most useful? In November 2010 you only objected to the most blog-like links like the Artistamp Museum, Mailart Forum and Lutz Wohlrab's site, and allowed the others to stand. They've stood for two years, we'd appreciate restoring at least some of them! Keith Bates and Vittore Baroni Keithbates51 (talk) 17:28, 9 November 2012 (UTC)