Talk:Lady Triệu: Difference between revisions
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==Re: Quotation== |
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''"It would be easier to fight a tiger, than to fight the Lady Queen."'' Out of sheer curiosity: what is the original source for this? -- [[User:Miwasatoshi|Miwa]] * [[User talk:Miwasatoshi|talk]] * [[Special:Contributions/Miwasatoshi|contribs]] ^_^ 05:18, 21 May 2006 (UTC) |
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== Accuracy/NPOV == |
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I wonder who wrote this page. It seems to be in the same style as the article on the Trung Sisters; both lack sources concerning the legends of the exploits of these people, and both seem to be written in a similar style. The author also seems intent on describing the invading Chinese army in both articles as 'fighting naked'. It seems like this was a personal addition by the author, who could not accept the fact that the defending army was just plain useless. The author seems quite pathetic, really. |
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Offending paragraph: |
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Another version claims that Triệu Thị Trinh was a nine-foot tall giantess who rode into battle upon a massive elephant with her pendulous breasts slung over her shoulders and the Chinese at the times exclaimed: “It would be easier to fight a tiger, than to fight the Lady Queen.”.[citation needed] [1] It was said[who?] that she could not stand even the tiniest bit of dirt so a Chinese general made his troops kick up lots of dust while they fought naked making her flee in disgust so her small army lost upon which she committed suicide. |
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Changed the source [1] from the end to the middle of the paragraph. Evidence of the end of the paragraph is not found in the source. |
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[[Special:Contributions/125.238.169.225|125.238.169.225]] ([[User talk:125.238.169.225|talk]]) 09:57, 16 October 2008 (UTC) |
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== Just removed from article == |
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[http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Tri%E1%BB%87u_Th%E1%BB%8B_Trinh&curid=2195653&diff=258539313&oldid=245633238]. Please move such text to "Discussion" in the future, thanks. [[User:Badagnani|Badagnani]] ([[User talk:Badagnani|talk]]) 16:10, 17 December 2008 (UTC) |
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== Rewrite == |
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The current version contains too many quotations, a [[Triệu Thị Trinh#Historical controversy|section]] of [[WP:OR|synthesis]], and few third-party source was cited (most of sources that are used are primary source which should not be used here). I suggested that this article should be rewritten entirely to comply with Wikipedia's quality standards. |
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If no one object, I will rewrite this article by using only English sources and source of well-known historian [[Tran Trong Kim]].--[[User:Amore Mio|Amore Mio]] ([[User talk:Amore Mio|talk]]) 12:25, 11 April 2009 (UTC) |
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This stuff certainly appears in various secondary sources, although it is not the official record or primary sources. The subject is perhaps more important as myth than as history anyway. [[User:Kauffner|Kauffner]] ([[User talk:Kauffner|talk]]) 03:30, 11 June 2012 (UTC) |
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== Requested move: Trieu Thi Trinh → Lady Trieu == |
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<div class="boilerplate" style="background-color: #efe; margin: 2em 0 0 0; padding: 0 10px 0 10px; border: 1px dotted #aaa;"><!-- Template:RM top --> |
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:''The following discussion is an archived discussion of a [[WP:RM|requested move]]. <span style="color:red">'''Please do not modify it.'''</span> Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section. '' |
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The result of the move request was: '''No consensus to move to new title''' [[User:Mike Cline|Mike Cline]] ([[User talk:Mike Cline|talk]]) 19:52, 17 November 2011 (UTC) |
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[[Trieu Thi Trinh]] → {{no redirect|1=Lady Trieu}} – <small>'''Relisted'''. [[User:Vegaswikian|Vegaswikian]] ([[User talk:Vegaswikian|talk]]) 00:43, 6 November 2011 (UTC)</small> The current title misleads the reader into thinking that "Triệu Thị Trinh" is the formal name of Vietnam's warrior queen, or perhaps her Vietnamese name. But the primary sources give her as ''Triệu Ẩu.'' In modern Vietnamese, she is usually referred to as ''Bà Triệu.'' Every city in Vietnam has a street of this name. Both ''Triệu Ẩu'' and ''Bà Triệu'' translate as "Lady Trieu". "Triệu Thị Trinh" would seem to be a modern invention, possibly a hoax by 20th century historian [[Tran Trong Kim]]. A qualified Google Books search yields [http://www.google.com/search?lr=lang_en&tbo=p&tbm=bks&q=Vietnam+%22Trieu+Thi+Trinh%22+elephant+OR+sharks+OR+248+OR+rebellion&tbs=,cdr:1,cd_min:Jan%201_2%201980&num=10 83] post-1980 English-language hits for "Trieu Thi Trinh", [http://www.google.com/search?lr=lang_en&tbo=p&tbm=bks&q=Vietnam+%22Lady+Trieu%22+elephant+OR+sharks+OR+248+OR+rebellion&tbs=,cdr:1,cd_min:Jan%201_2%201990&num=10 70] for "Lady Trieu", and [http://www.google.com/search?lr=lang_en&tbo=p&tbm=bks&q=Vietnam+%22Trieu+Au%22+elephant+OR+sharks+OR+248+OR+rebellion&tbs=,cdr:1,cd_min:Jan%201_2%201980&num=10 87] for "Trieu Au". Of the standard English-language treatments, Nguyễn Khắc Viện's ''[http://books.google.com/books?id=YPxVAAAAYAAJ&q= Vietnam, a long history]'' (1999) and Taylor's ''[http://books.google.com/books?id=rCl_02LnNVIC&dq=Birth+of+Vietnam&source=gbs_navlinks_s Birth of Vietnam]'' (1991) both give "Lady Trieu", while Chapuis' ''[http://books.google.com/books?id=Jskyi00bspcC&dq= A history of Vietnam]'' (1995) gives "Trieu Au." [[User:Kauffner|Kauffner]] ([[User talk:Kauffner|talk]]) 04:31, 30 October 2011 (UTC) |
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'''Oppose''' Lady Trieu is a honorific title (like "[[Sir]]", "[[Madam]]" .etc.) and should not be used as article's title. In addition, Trieu Au is the name given by the Chinese and can't not be used because it has negative meaning of "the old (bad) Triệu". And I dismissed your doubt that "Triêu Trinh Nương" was a hoax of Trần Trọng Kim because he was a respected historian, and he stuck on classical history books such as "[[Đại Việt Sử Ký Toàn Thư]] or [[:vi:Khâm định Việt sử Thông giám cương mục|Cương Mục]] to write the book "Viet Nam Su Luoc" (in which the name "Trieu Thi Trinh" appeared).--[[User:Amore Mio|AM]] <sup>([[User talk:Amore Mio|talk]])</sup> 04:31, 31 October 2011 (UTC) |
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:The [http://www.informatik.uni-leipzig.de/~duc/sach/dvsktt/dvsktt04.html Đại Việt Annals] and [http://www.sugia.vn/upload/fckeditor/kdvstgcm.pdf Cương Mục] are both on the Web, so you can verify for yourself that the primary sources call her "Triệu Ẩu". There is no basis to say what her given name might have been. In modern Vietnamese, there are four bios that use "Bà Triệu" in the title.[https://www.google.com/search?q=%22B%C3%A0+Tri%E1%BB%87u%22&btnG=Search+Books&tbm=bks&tbo=1] Her Vietnamese Wikipedia article is entitled [[vi:Bà Triệu]]. Triệu Ẩu, Bà Triệu, and Lady Trieu are direct equivalents, just different languages. [[User:Kauffner|Kauffner]] ([[User talk:Kauffner|talk]]) 01:33, 2 November 2011 (UTC) |
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:''The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a [[WP:RM|requested move]]. <span style="color:red">'''Please do not modify it.'''</span> Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.</div><!-- Template:RM bottom --> |
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I removed these sentences because of lacking of source (and, in my opinion, it come from a fringe source of some so-called scholars in Vietnam).--Amore Mio (talk) 14:19, 11 April 2009 (UTC)
The following is the popular Vietnamese account.{{Fact|date=February 2008}} ===Early years=== Triệu Thị Trinh was born in Son Trung Village in the [[Trieu Son]] District of the [[Thanh Hoa Province]] (situated in today's northern Vietnam) on the [[2 October]] [[225|AD 225]]. At this time, the area was under the control of the [[Eastern Wu]] Kingdom, one of China's [[Three Kingdoms]]. She was [[orphan]]ed at a young age and lived with her brother [[Triệu Quốc Đạt]] (趙 國達) and his wife until she was twenty years old. It was said{{Who|date=February 2008}} that she was treated like a slave in their home. ===Rebellion=== When she was twenty, she could no longer stand by and watch Wu dominate her homeland. She fled into the jungle and set up her own military camp where she went on to amass an army of at least a thousand men and women soldiers. When her brother tried to persuade her from rebelling, she told him: <blockquote>''“I will not resign myself to the lot of women who bow their heads and become concubines. I wish to surf the rough waves, ride the strong winds, kill the whales of the East Sea, fight the Wu to gain independence. I have no desire to take abuse.”''</blockquote> {{Citequote|date=March 2009}} Triệu Thị Trinh managed to successfully liberate an area of Vietnam which she claimed as her territory and from there set up her own [[Administration (government)|administration]]. By the time Thị Trinh was 23 she had defeated Wu advances on thirty separate occasions. She managed to defend her territory for several months and it was said that she rode into battle on the back of an [[elephant]], clad in golden [[armour]] carrying a [[sword]] in each hand. ===Defeat=== However in [[248|AD 248]], Wu managed to defeat Thị Trinh's forces and recaptured the territory which she had previously liberated from them. To protect her [[honour]] and to elude death at the hands of the Chinese, she committed [[suicide]] by drowning herself in a nearby river. There is another version of her suicide, saying that she was trampled to death by elephants. {{Fact|date=February 2008}} Another version claims that Triệu Thị Trinh was a nine-foot tall giantess who rode into battle upon a massive elephant with her pendulous breasts slung over her shoulders and the Chinese at the times exclaimed: ''“It would be easier to fight a tiger, than to fight the Lady Queen.”''. {{Fact|date=February 2008}} [http://www.mundanebehavior.org/issues/v2n1/degroot.htm] It was said{{Who|date=February 2008}} that she could not stand even the tiniest bit of dirt so a Chinese general made his troops kick up lots of dust while they fought naked making her flee in disgust so her small army lost upon which she committed suicide.
This stuff certainly appears in various secondary sources, although it is not the official record or primary sources. The subject is perhaps more important as myth than as history anyway. Kauffner (talk) 03:30, 11 June 2012 (UTC)
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