Talk:Murder of Meredith Kercher

Primary sourced description of trial

I reverted this. It is nearly all primary-sourced, and it does not add substantial value to the article. If there are important points there that need summarizing, please explain which are important on talk, with references to reliable secondary sources. Hipocrite (talk) 09:31, 20 April 2011 (UTC)

Can I restore my improvements to the opening sentence of that section? Cos you also just restored the "supposed date" stuff which is classic WP:WEASEL. Just checking this is kosher before I do it. --Errant ^(chat!) 09:34, 20 April 2011 (UTC)

I have no concerns with your changes. Hipocrite (talk) 09:39, 20 April 2011 (UTC)

• Per policy WP:PRIMARY, descriptive text can be backed by a primary source; secondary sources are needed to support conclusions not stated in the primary sources (read WP:RS). Also, sources are not needed for non-controversial text, at all. Plus, the large-scale deletion of major sections of text, of deleting 3408 bytes, requires consensus of interested editors, not a unilateral deletion as was done by User:Hipocrite in this edit (09:30, 20 April 2011). Unless there are any new policies created to allow one person to delete massive amounts of sourced text, I will restored the deleted material to the article. -Wikid77 16:32, 20 April 2011 (UTC)

The policies I relied on in removing the text were WP:BURDEN, WP:CON and WP:BRD. Please describe what from your primary sources is important, using reliable secondary sources. The section cannot be based almost entirely on primary sources. Hipocrite (talk) 16:42, 20 April 2011 (UTC)

First of all, it is my understanding that these edits are fine under WP:PRIMARY as they are merely descriptive text. If that isn't the case, the language should be changed to descriptive text, not tagged. Furthermore, why is this the only information being tagged? There are at least a dozen references to the Massei rerport in this article...is it Hipocrite's position that each one needs to be tagged? Clearly, WP policy is to allow primary sources in some circumstances. I just don't see the value in these tags.LedRush (talk) 17:16, 20 April 2011 (UTC)

Not sure what tags you are referring to, since this section is not referring to a tag addition. If you are referring to this tag addition, it is because the information about the laptop may or may not be notable - if it were notable information, it would have been included in a reliable secondary source. The "Massei" report is massive - and a problem that needs to be avoided is the possibility of editors misusing the report, selectively reporting and documenting facts that they feel are important - in effect, analyzing the document by choosing what to include and what not to include. The typical way that large primary documents are used is not to find things that are in the document and report on them, but rather to summarize the contents of the document - to hit on it's main points. This is documented in WP:PRIMARY - "Do not ... evaluate material found in a primary source yourself." That is what could be happening when people pick specific passages out of a primary source that were never documented in a secondary source. Hipocrite (talk) 17:23, 20 April 2011 (UTC)

It should further be noted that we hardly use the Massei report at all, and my attempts to clean up the section where the report is massively overused were, as I recall, reverted. Hipocrite (talk) 17:26, 20 April 2011 (UTC)

I'm sure your attempts to 'clean up', as you describe them, were highly selective. You should really get consensus from the group before making the often radical changes to the article which you appear to think you are entitled to make at the drop of a hat. CodyJoeBibby (talk) 17:50, 20 April 2011 (UTC)

Please review WP:BOLD. Do you insist on pre-clearing consensus from the group for all radical changes to the article? For instance, should this edit have gotten consensus before being made? Why or why not? Hipocrite (talk) 17:54, 20 April 2011 (UTC)

I've read the policy. You can't blindside me by Wikilawyering any more. I warn you not to patronise me again by telling me to review any more Wikipedia policies. You're simply using them as a weapon to patronise your adversary. CodyJoeBibby (talk) 18:02, 20 April 2011 (UTC)

The founding principle of Wikipedia is, basically, that you don't have to navigate complex bureaucracy to make changes. You make them. If they are validly disputed then it gets discussed. --Errant ^(chat!) 18:14, 20 April 2011 (UTC)

That's great Errant, except that that principle has not applied to this article in the recent past. However I'm not complaining. It seems to be moving in the right direction. CodyJoeBibby (talk) 18:19, 20 April 2011 (UTC)

The material initially gave me pause for thought. I think the relevant policy is WP:UNDUE; an awful lot of detail was added from the single primary source - the idea is to write an overview. :) I felt the text was not particularly well written (although can can be fixed in the copyedit process, which I did start before the RV). And I also had a worry over the liberal accompaniment of Italian words to the text. I couldn't figure out what purpose that served (except in a couple of cases where quoting his words made sense). --Errant ^(chat!) 18:14, 20 April 2011 (UTC)

On a side note, I've also just noticed that Guede stated he had met Kercher the previous night, on Halloween, and had arranged a "romantic" date with her the next day might be a close paraphrase of the source. If someone gets chance to fix that it would be great :) --Errant ^(chat!) 18:15, 20 April 2011 (UTC)

I've taken out the quoted "romantic" statement, which makes this less close to the original in two ways (tone and vocabulary (and not having romantic in quotes)). The left over statement is so simple and general, I don't believe there is a copyright issue.LedRush (talk) 19:43, 20 April 2011 (UTC)

I realise this is nit-picky, but copyright like this is specialism... it is still very close (well, basically the same sentence :)). I'll have a go at rewording the intro to the paragraph later. Single sentences won't usually matter, but when we are attributing the source so directly it is best to err on the side of caution. --Errant ^(chat!) 20:53, 20 April 2011 (UTC)

• I do not think describing Guede's version of events is a case of WP:UNDUE details. Kercher's house keys & 300 euros were confirmed missing, the front door was noted as left open, her bedroom door was locked, other rooms had been entered, a window was broken, and she was found on the floor, disrobed on a single bed pillow (with blood handprint and shoe prints), and pools of blood nearby. Text related to those details should be added, so it is appropriate to note Guede claimed Kercher unlocked the front door with a key from her handbag (Guede stated the door was not wide-open at that time), and she did not say, "Wow, I've lost my key...could you break a window to let us unto the cottage?" ...plus Guede claimed Kercher discovered significant money missing from an open drawer (Italian: cassetto aperto), and they together searched the house, room-to-room. Here's a general rule of thumb: expect the size of this article to grow until all major aspects of the crime are described: the missing 300 euros (~$420), 2 credit cards, 2 mobile phones, Kercher's house keys, the phone calls which Kercher made before dying, the fingerprints and shoe prints recorded, the luminol patches, the CCTV video evidence, and the knife evidence. -Wikid77 21:45, 20 April 2011 (UTC)

Presumably because I commented at the recent WQA report that arose out out of this article, user Hipocrite asked me at my talk page to comment on this section (permalink). As I said there, I don't have an intrinsic interest in this article, and I don't intend to participate in its development; certainly not to edit it. But I have spent roughly 90 minutes reviewing the edit in question, and the policies that apply to it. There has been considerable debate at RSN over the circumstances under which it might be permissible to use court transcripts, of course, and to what extent, and we have more than one policy that applies to this particular instance of the question. The one that seems to me to be most relevant to this instance is WP:BLPPRIMARY. I won't quote from that here; please look at it yourself. Although some might read that as a black-and-white, bright-line exclusion of the disputed material in this case, I don't see it that way, given that other sources have discussed this material. So in my opinion, like most of the cases that have been raised over the use of trial transcripts at RSN, this, too, comes down to a judgment call.

And it's a difficult judgment call, in my opinion. I have no objection to using the trial transcript to clarify and briefly expand statements that have already been discussed in secondary sources, but that use should be very limited, I think. Is this edit "limited", or "limited enough"? I think it is, just barely. I do object to some parts of the added material, though. For example, "Guede could not describe the knife or indicate length" cited to the transcript seems rather cherry-picked to me, in the sense that (to me) the statement implies he should have done, and to the extent that's true, it offers an editorial comment, however implicit. Also, "The man struggled and cut Guede, who fell to the floor, but picked up a chair" should not, in my opinion be reported as fact; it needs to be prefaced with "Guede said", or some such, I think. Also, the word "claimed" is used to describe Guede's statment, which should not be used; see WP:CLAIM. Similarly with "supposed date"; the phrase indicates disbelief. Instead of "In their supposed date, Guede said...", I'd prefer to see something like, "As Guede recounted the events of what he described as their date, Guede told the court ..." More neutral, less prejudicial, imo.

If I understand correctly, though, much of the dispute over this edit has to do with whether the statement in the article, "The court found that Guede's version of events did not match the forensic evidence" can be or is properly supported by the primary-source quotation,

Guede "confirmed to have touched more or less everywhere in the room, even with his hands stained with blood, without explaining why his footprint is just under the corpse on the pillow when he remembered the regular pillow on the bed". –Micheli Judgment

I'd say it's justified in concept, but that the wording is too strong and too broad. Unless there's other supporting material that I'm unaware of (a possibility, of course, since I know almost nothing about the facts of this case) the summary statement, "did not match the forensic evidence" seems too much to say if it's referring to, and depends upon, only the pillow/footprint statement, above. I'd prefer to see something like, "In rendering its verdict, the court noted that Guede did not explain how his footprint came to be on a pillow under the corpse, observing that Guede had stated his recollection of the pillow as having been in place on the bed." Or something like that.

As I said on my talk page, I do not intend to be drawn into participating in the development of this article, so I probably won't be replying to any responses that are posted here to this commentary, or not at any length, anyway. I've provided this opinion primarily because Hipocrite requested it, and because I felt I sort of owed him the courtesy, since I'd been so critical of his behavior previously, at WQA. I doubt he'll be pleased with my opinion here, though, which I regret. I'll close by saying that this is just one editor's opinion, of course, and certainly isn't definitive. If participating editors want other opinions, those could certainly be reasonably requested at RSN. If you take it there, I'd just suggest that you all try hard not to continue to argue the case there, to give uninvolved reviewers the "room" to respond, and that you give greater weight to the opinions of reviewers who appear to have spent more some reasonable time examining the question, instead of just quoting a quick sentence or two from policy that touches this, and concluding that decides the matter. This is not a question that can be resolved that way, imo; it calls for careful analysis of all the policy issues that apply. In any case, please try to remember that everyone is trying to do the right thing here, as he sees it, and that opinions about so close a judgment call as this may certainly differ, legitimately, and in all good faith.  – OhioStandard (talk) 04:49, 21 April 2011 (UTC)

Well put, I especially like your suggestion for the summation of the courts opinion on the footprints (any objections by editors to that being inserted?). I think that we can definitely add material from this report - however I think it needs to be done with care. For example He said he got fruit juice from the refrigerator (Italian: frigo), and then she walked back to her room to find a drawer open (Italian: cassetto aperto), and her money (denaro) was missing. He claimed they went, room to room, to search for other money or items taken, but saw no evidence of a break-in. strikes me as detail rising to the level of triviality. I am unconvinced that it is important to recite every single detail as described by Guede, only the particularly relevant things/broad overview (this is why secondary sources are useful FWIW, because they identify the relevant bits for us :)). He did not say she tried to phone anyone about arriving home, or about the theft. Instead, he claimed he calmed her, and they soon became intimate, to forget about the missing money, and he touched under her clothes and bra Didn't strike mas as neutral or off-hand. I'm struggling a bit (because the source does not translate properly ever time for me) to track down the specific part that supports this, but, I am concerned that this is intended to undermine his evidence due to the fact that a phone call is said to have been made elsewhere (the insinuation being he is lying). It would be nice to have the exact part of the source presented that this is taken from. The second sentence also concerned me, mostly because of the use of "Instead", which seems a bit of a WP:WEASEL word (following on from the previous sentence). All of this material can, and should, be dealt with. I just think this particular edit was not the best presentation of it. (Also: I reworded the problematic close-paraphrase & also re-added a small amount of detail about the times, which are important, from the primary source). --Errant ^(chat!) 10:32, 21 April 2011 (UTC)

• The purpose of this article is not to try to defend the testimony of a man who was convicted 3 times of a murder, and there is no WP policy which states, "You cannot include testimony of a convicted man which might make him seem to have lied in court" (no WP policy supports that viewpoint). Please note that even policy WP:SYNTH requires a synthesis of text from 2 or more sources to imply a novel conclusion. It is not a novel conclusion that Guede was convicted 3 times of the murder, nor to conclude his testimony did not match the forensic evidence. The extent of details which I added from the court transcript was a microscopic summary of his testimony: he also stated that when he fled the scene, he left both Kercher's bedroom door open and the cottage door open as well; plus, he noted he spent Halloween with some Spanish friends and 2 women, at a residential party, and they went to the Domus nightclub later. Many of those people made statements for his trial. Also, when shown photos of Meredith Kercher partying, in costume, at various locations, Guede said he did not recognize any of those locations. There is an enormous amount of detail in the Micheli Judgment document, so the tiny portion I noted is only part of what could be included in the article, as related to the criminal charges which arose in his trial. Per WP:NOTCENSORED, even if an editor's religion demands avoiding the facts, WP does not "cherry-pick" which text to exclude from a conviction-summary so that a man convicted of a murder would seem less guilty or would seem to have always told the truth. It is not a novel conclusion that he might have committed the murder. -Wikid77 17:36, 21 April 2011 (UTC)
  • I am not sure of the relevance of NOTCENSORED or editor's religions, you lost me there, sorry. The content that was reverted had significant issues (FWIW I would have improved it rather than RV, but there you go), not least a non-neutral tone that strongly implied he had lied in his evidence. This is not a conclusion we can make (if someone else reliable does so, that is another matter) or adopt. The section did not successfully detach fact from analysis. As you say; there is microscopic detail in the trial transcript. We don't really need to deal with all of that. As another point, where testimony contradicts other evidence (or itself) we must have a reliable source that explains this to support the text. That can't be "side stepped" by listing his testimony in a way which situates it against text further up the article. The key idea here is of hand tone :) --Errant ^(chat!) 19:32, 21 April 2011 (UTC)

Wikid77, I don't know who or what you might be referring to with your comment about "an editor's religion", but please keep it civil. You know the drill: Comment on the content, not the contributor. There's been more than enough flaming and flame-bait around this article, already; no one needs any more, regardless of how frustrated they might feel.

More substantively, re "WP does not 'cherry-pick' which text to exclude..." you hit on exactly the problem with using trial transcripts at all: When someone picks, based on their own preference and judgment, which passages from a transcript to include and which to exclude, his editorial discretion will inevitably be open to charges of cherry picking. Some facts will be emphasized by the selection, and others suppressed. Thats why, to my understanding, primary sources should, at most, only be used to briefly expand on, or elucidate, statements already made in secondary sources. Whenever you go much beyond that, you start to act as a journalist rather than an encyclopedia writer, imo. Based on what you've presented in the foregoing (talk-page) comment, it does seem to be "the truth" that Guede's conviction was just. But you know very well that "the truth", for better or worse, isn't our stock in trade, here. That's certainly frustrating at times, but there are good reasons, too, that we're mostly limited by policy to summarizing what secondary sources have already reported. I'm sure you'll agree when you reflect for a moment on the alternative.

@Errant: I also had some reservations about, "He did not say she tried to phone anyone about arriving home, or about the theft. Instead, he claimed he calmed her, and they soon became intimate, to forget about the missing money, and he touched under her clothes and bra." If "he did not say" isn't an observation made by the principles (i.e. judge, lawyers, etc.) in the case that's taken directly from the transcript, but rather an observation made by an editor about it, I'd say it has to go. Also, I didn't see the point of the fruit juice thing, either. Whether to mention Guede's statement about money being missing at all, and his testimony that they searched for it is, imo, a tough judgment call. I'm inclined to recommend that it be left in, but I'd be happier about doing so if it were reported in secondary sources. Even if it's not, though, it seems to me to be a small-enough expansion on the narrative that does exist in secondary sources that I think it's permissible.

Finally, I'd like to reiterate my objection to "supposed date" and the ubiquitous use of "claim" or "claimed"; again, see WP:CLAIM for NPOV considerations that apply. Guede may be guilty as sin; based on the little I've read, it's my opinion that he probably is. But we still don't get to skew the language of our articles to say so. We still have to report the facts in an NPOV way, and can't use the "voice of Wikipedia" to cast doubt on (or lend credence to) anyone's statments.  – OhioStandard (talk) 19:37, 21 April 2011 (UTC)

I fixed the "supposed date" problem when I fixed the close paraphrasing problem earlier. There is still a claim in there, I was a bit lazy so sort of constructed the new sentences around the witnesses testimony statement, and "claimed" was the natural word to use :) Absolutely no issues from my end on rewording that part. --Errant ^(chat!) 19:43, 21 April 2011 (UTC)

Sorry, Errant, I missed that correction. Also, as a point of order, mostly directed to Wikid77: I'd suggest that you'd probably all get along a little better here if everyone would stick to normal WP:INDENTATION threading protocol, and try to refrain, in the future, from using flush-left posts or, especially, from calling out their posts with bullet-points/asterisks. This is a small point, but the usual protocol does tend to help the discussion proceed in a more cooperative way, imo.  – OhioStandard (talk) 19:51, 21 April 2011 (UTC)

Not a problem. I fixed the claim problem (seeing as I caused this latest one :)) now too. Not really all that happy with the sentence but it is a case of "shored up" for the moment ;) --Errant ^(chat!) 20:00, 21 April 2011 (UTC)

Re-adding Guede's version of events

I am responding, here, to several issues noted, anywhere and everywhere, in the above topic:
• When I use a left-side bullet-point/asterisk, I am responding to several issues.
• When I indent, it is a response to the prior post.
• The word "claimed" is coming from the Italian language (perhaps Wikipedia can get the word removed from Italian dictionaries?). The court document said Guede (quote) "claimed" (unquote).
• I like the word "claimed" and object to Wikipedia's insinuation that "claimed" means "lied desperately to hide his guilt" so I just do not believe most readers in the world will read "claimed" and go "Aha! Liar, Liar, Liar" which (to me) means that WP:CLAIM is a violation of WP:NOR redefining the word "claimed" to have an exclusive new meaning (compared to the witness "fabricated" or "imagined").
• The reference to the fruit juice places Guede in the kitchen at that time.
• I can pinpoint the source where Guede states he calmed her to forget the money and became intimate.
• I noted he never mentioned Kercher using her phones.
• He was charged with murder, and notes her as alive c.21:00 but later stabbed by another.
• He was charged with assault, but stated they became intimate/touched.
• He was charged with theft, but stated her drawer was open and money gone, and saw her house key from her handbag (details related to his criminal charges).
• The house door enters the kitchen, and Kercher's room is at the end of that hall.
• Guede stated a direct course of events: they entered, he took fruit juice from the kitchen, and they went down the hall to her room where a drawer was open; hence, it's not like they came inside, and he cooked a meal, then she went outside to pick flowers, left him inside 25 minutes, then returned to find someone opened a money drawer in her room.
• By insisting on removing any minor "9-word phrase" about fruit juice (etc.), it is an attempt to censor the suspect's stated course of events, and I just do not understand what policy says to remove 9 words about entering a house.
• About the tone of the post, I have stated Guede's version of events, and I cannot help if he seems to be lying. They noted that he could not describe the knife or indicate length (indicare lunghezza), but stated he was cut on the hand by it (hey, Judge Micheli noted these issues in his reasoning about guilt, so go figure: a guy is fighting to avoid a man with a knife but does not know what the knife looked like or any length). Please understand, that the Micheli Judgment went further, by noting that Guede's alleged trip to the far-opposite bathroom, just when the "knifer" arrived, seemed to them to be "too convenient" (in timing of events) to be reality. I did not include that level of judgment, and the whole story might still seem fishy and negative to any readers, but Wikipedia is not about trying to un-fishy-fy a guy's testimony.
• I do not see a reason to justify removing the entire 4kb text of Guede's version of events.
• I could note 23 issues to change in the text, but that is no reason to prevent adding it.
• The problem to avoid is "paralysis of analysis" in waiting to pre-debate and decide every possible analyzed flaw, before adding text to the article.
As a result, I plan to restore the whole text, but avoid the word "claimed" for now, while also adding a secondary source specifically about Guede's version of events ("Meredith whispered killer's name, suspect says", Telegraph, 24 Nov. 2007). Then, we can modify parts of the text or discuss, later, how to "perfect each and every word" or other issues. -Wikid77 06:20, 22 April 2011 (UTC)

Cool, thanks for taking the time to discuss specifics :)

• The reference to the fruit juice places Guede in the kitchen at that time.; why is this important? Do we have a source that identifies this as an important thing to note?
• I noted he never mentioned Kercher using her phones.; yes.... but you haven't explained why. Does the source (I am struggling to find it) specifically say that he never mentioned this detail. Or does it just not mention it? Do you see why that is an important difference?
• hence, it's not like they came inside, and he cooked a meal, then she went outside to pick flowers, left him inside 25 minutes, then returned to find someone opened a money drawer in her room.; is this a view expressed in a RS? or your own view of what is important to establish? If the latter,
• I cannot help if he seems to be lying.; I disagree, I explained above how the formulation of the sentences implied heavily he was lying. NPOV is not just about stating every view, but stating it in a neutral off-hand way. We are not quoting Guede, so there is no reason for the wording to imply him being a liar. That is an analysis we must leave to a RS, if one exists.
• Please understand, that the Micheli Judgment went further, by noting that Guede's alleged trip to the far-opposite bathroom, just when the "knifer" arrived, seemed to them to be "too convenient" (in timing of events) to be reality.; why? This is the sort of analysis material we should be considering including!
• The problem to avoid is "paralysis of analysis" in waiting to pre-debate and decide every possible analyzed flaw, before adding text to the article.; I generally agree. But in this specific case I strongly recommend you let people re-write portions and add it back as we discuss each section. My main concern with what you wrote is that it wasn't very good text. --Errant ^(chat!) 10:00, 22 April 2011 (UTC)

Guede has stated his version of events. His account is easier to describe if treated as a story-line: he waited, she unlocked with key from handbag; it was c.21:00; he asked and took juice from frig; she went back to her room, and they discovered the missing money; they toured the cottage and found no breakin and no other theft; they became intimate/touched; he got sick and crossed to the large bathroom; heard knock+scream & went to bedroom; knifer guy with no glasses over body on floor; they fight and Guede's hand cut by knife he could not describe; he leaves Kercher fully dressed on floor & white pillow on bed. He says Amanda Knox was not in the cottage that night. He runs home (using back streets), changes clothes, and goes dancing. The next he pays cash for a train ticket from Italy-to-Switzerland-to-Germany and leaves. He has no idea about Kercher's 2 missing phones. The jury decides guilty. If not ordered as a story-line, it becomes: he fled and went dancing; MK was bleeding on floor; he searched for money/valuables in all rooms; she unlocked the front door; it began at 21:00; MK said her money was gone; Guede could not describe the knife; he changed clothes; Knox was not there; he heard a knock+screams; they became intimate; he ran home; knifer guy with no glasses over body on floor; white pillow on bed; they fight and Guede's hand cut by knife; Guede pays cash for a train ticket; Guede got sick and crossed to the large bathroom. So, it is much clearer when re-ordered by time of events. -Wikid77 12:01, 24 April 2011

• Also, when the entire section was modified, as discussed above, and added back, then it revealed people who falsely claimed there was no discussion to alter text at all during those 6 days, or falsely claimed no changes were made to the re-added text, or falsely claimed other things. There is obviously a WP:BATTLEground mentality of several other editors here, who are quick to make false claims, false conclusions, or put false text into the article. They pretend to require consensus before changes can be made, pretend to enter into discussions to get agreement, but then unilaterally delete any text they, personally, do not want in the article, and then complain that other text changes were made without an agreement. So, it is difficult to imagine they could add fact-checked text to the article. -Wikid77 13:15, 26 April 2011 (UTC)

You addressed none of the points I raised. Please address the points I raised. --Errant ^(chat!) 13:22, 26 April 2011 (UTC)

WP policies allow details in crime articles

There seems to be extensive misunderstanding that this crime article cannot contain any details, because some people think everything published in reliable sources is considered a violation of WP policies. That is simply not true. In fact, it would be a severe violation of WP:NPOV neutrality to (continually) remove or ban a suspect's version of events as being WP:UNDUE details (Think: how could a suspect's viewpoint be omitted and still be considered "neutral" coverage of major viewpoints?). When a person has gone to trial for a crime, and their documented viewpoint is excluded from a article, then I would consider that a violation of WP:NPOV in excluding their viewpoint while only considering the police or prosecution version of events. If people are charged with theft, and they state the theft occurred before they arrived at the scene, then that must be included in the article. In reality, there are few cases where details should be removed from a crime article:

• If a suspect names someone else as committing the crime, then consider removing that as unfounded rumor.
• If a news report quotes local people as claiming someone committed a crime, then that should be removed as rumor.
• If a non-official person is named in the text, then that name can be shortened to last initial, or removed.
• If a person testifies, under oath, that they saw a person involved, then that should be allowed.

Consequently, to provide the wide, NPOV-neutral coverage, then all major viewpoints must be presented in the article, and that could generate a huge article, to present a balanced coverage of all major views. In fact, if a crime article seems brief, or merely moderate, in size, then it probably is a policy vio against WP:NPOV balance. Therefore, expect many people to complain that a crime article is biased, when it leaves out so many details that all major sides of an issue are not fairly presented. Plus, when it comes to an article becoming huge, then remember WP:NOTPAPER allows articles to be quite large. I hope this clarifies why crime articles should be expected to become huge. -Wikid77 03:19, 22 April 2011 (UTC)

The problem that exists is that we definitely don't want to recite their exact testimony in great detail, we are a summary. So we deal in the generalities of their evidence, and then pick important specifics as identified by reliable secondary sources. We aren't telling a story, we are recording historical events in reasonable detail. --Errant ^(chat!) 10:08, 22 April 2011 (UTC)

I think there has been a misconception, earlier, when some people used the word "transcript" about the Micheli Judgment document (from 2009-01-26), as if being a record which quotes all statements made by Guede and witnesses. It is not a court transcript, but rather a summary of Guede's 1st trial (1 of 5), as published 90 days later. In fact, the source used in MoMK is not really a true "primary source" but rather a summary of the real 106-page Micheli Judgment, condensed by omitting many forensic details as well as page numbers. In this case, the Penale.it website has published a summary of the true Micheli Judgment by repeating most of the details, as being significant, but omitting numerous room measurements (and such) which were contained in the true primary source. For that reason, it would be possible to draw a "scale map" of the cottage (from measurements), but only some furniture measurements are in the Penale.it version. So, I agree with the concept of using a summary of each suspect's version of events as noted in secondary sources, and that is, indeed, what the above text embodies. -Wikid77 00:49, 23 April 2011 (UTC)

Wikipedia is a general encyclopaedia - not a dedicated crime encyclopaedia. The point should not be inflate the article through the inclusion of one piece of information after another until the page comes across more as a repository for trivia and minutiae than an accessible source of information. If the article is so turgid as to make it unreadable, Wikipedia rather fails in its goal to serve as a tool for education. SuperMarioMan 14:09, 22 April 2011 (UTC)

I realize the size of Wikipedia might seem troublesome, and I do not think Wikipedia can be called a "general encyclopedia" but rather an "immense encyclopedia" of more than 21 million articles in 250(?) languages, intended for the general public who read any of numerous languages. It's not "your grandfather's 1911 Britannica any more". I continually remind people, that in the 1960s, Encyclopaedia Britannica did not allow an article on Babe Ruth, or Clark Gable or even Elizabeth Taylor (the highest paid actress at that time), but upon her death, Wikipedia's pageviews for her article entered record-breaking levels: 2 million pageviews in 1 day, and 4.5 million per month, for an article formerly not allowed in Britannica. Today, Wikipedia does not ban articles in that manner, and WP:Notability of a subject is determined by extensive coverage in reliable sources, where the extend of an article is determined by policies of NPOV-neutrality, verifiability (to all WP:RS sources), and known research on details. Hence, when crimes are notable (due to extensive coverage), then Wikipedia includes a vast "crime encyclopedia" treating each case in a balanced, verifiable matter, which includes material to cover all the major (felony) crimes associated with a particular event. However, I support your concerns about "turgid" text, so I advise to use subarticles and inter-wikilinked sections, plus photos and crime scene concept-diagrams, charts, and lists (etc.). Also, this article is a special case:  a crime article that is among the "Top 1000 most-read articles of 2011" (by pageviews). Plus, it is a rare case: college students, with 2 men and 1 woman are accused of assaulting and murdering another student. -Wikid77 00:49, 23 April 2011 (UTC)

Yes, WP:NOTPAPER and avoidance of what could be described as "topic elitism" should both be borne in mind. It's just that, given the appearance of the article approximately 12 months ago, when it was at 150kB or more, I'm generally wary of attempts at sizeable expansion. In its previous incarnation, the Murder of Meredith Kercher article presented so many assertions and counter-assertions as to render the text practically impossible for a non-expert to follow - hence the drawn-out rewrite and simplification of content. Just out of interest, when you allude to sub-articles, what kinds of titles do you have in mind? The two proposals that are often raised at this talk page (and have been debated frequently in its various archives) relate to a separate biography for Knox and a trial article covering her an Sollecito (both of which have been the subject of WP:AfD discussions and still - currently - exist as redirects, as information at the head of the talk page indicates). The case for a Knox article may well be stronger at this point than in the past - I'm no longer certain that I oppose the concept, in principle, since WP:BLP1E concerns would seem to hold less merit now - but the potential for acceptance from the wider Wikipedia community remains difficult to judge. Opinion would appear to be sharply divided. SuperMarioMan 01:38, 23 April 2011 (UTC)

People want to know why the case is notable, and what has been controversial. When all is added back to the article: the Satanism concept, the alleged gioco erotico, the Myspace photos, the claims of bleaching, the conviction of Mignini, then the crime details become overwhelmed by the controversy. Now imagine if retesting the bra clasp (2nd sample) matches Guede not RS. Plus imagine if Knox/Sollecito get acquitted (due to whatever motivations in Italy to free them), then all those issues must be explained (per NPOV balance about BLP of 2 students), and so the result is a bigger distraction from describing the crime & how it happened. Thus, split "Trials of Amanda Knox and Raffaele Sollecito" to move that away and focus on the murder of MK. Since Knox is already in 2 articles, adding a 3rd for the Trials, makes the separate Knox biopage an automatic choice (linked to 3 articles). The title of the article promises to describe a murder event, not a shaggy dog story of how wild prosecutions distracted people from solving the crime, from getting the bank video recording before it was over-written (which showed people leaving the house), and from moving furniture to other rooms before all evidence was collected from the scene (etc.). Focus on the evidence of the murder, versions of events from suspects, and phone calls made. -Wikid77 12:01, 24 April 2011 (UTC)

<<<the potential for acceptance from the wider Wikipedia community remains difficult to judge. Opinion would appear to be sharply divided.>>> ...One of the best examples of WP:WEASEL I have ever seen. Well done, SuperMarioman. Is there any way to nominate this for the Wikipedia hall of fame? CodyJoeBibby (talk) 02:39, 23 April 2011 (UTC)

Well, when the Amanda Knox article, as it existed previously, was discussed at AfD in June 2010, users put forward many arguments both for and against keeping it. However, the resulting merge/redirect back to the Murder of Meredith Kercher article was perhaps inevitable at that time, since that old version of the page presented POV problems besides raising questions of WP:BLP1E. If the article is resurrected and reads as neutral in tone, then the weakening of the case for WP:BLP1E would leave arguments for another merge/redirect much thinner on the ground. Recent talk page discussion on the prospect of a separate Knox biography has indicated that opinion is still split on this subject - I am simply making some observations, speculating a little and asking Wikid77 a question. Your concerns regarding WP:WEASEL would hold more water if the Manual of Style applied to talk page comments as well as article content. I grow rather tired of all this sarcasm and snideness - do you have something to offer in response to my comment above that will permit this conversation to move forward amicably? Regards, SuperMarioMan 04:12, 23 April 2011 (UTC)

I mentioned to Wikid77 that, ultimately, this might spin out into more articles. I think there will eventually be scope to do so (although, not a biography of Knox :S) just to keep it sensible. The two trials (an their appeals) would seem to be the sensible divider. But that is a long long way down the road, when appeals are done and if the article gets too big in this guise. --Errant ^(chat!) 09:26, 23 April 2011 (UTC)

Amanda Knox and the Idaho Innocence Project

Recently, Examiner.com has reported the Idaho Innocence Project as checking the Amanda Knox case (video URL: www.examiner.com/crime-in-national/amanda-knox-case-being-examined-by-idaho-innocence-project-video). Hence, increased participation on the MoMK article, at this time, should not be seen as nefarious "off-site canvassing" but rather a natural consequence of a recent news story about the events. -Wikid77 17:54, 25 April 2011 (UTC)

Excessive detail, again.

In the above section titled "Primary sourced description of trial," it seemed pretty clear to me that there was not support for the majority of this older edit. Specifically, the use of italian phrases oddly in the text, discussing such trivialities as getting juice from a fridge, various discussions of drawers being open, and whatever. I don't know why an alternative proposal was not made, or an explanation of why the various details were important. I assumed that the issue was just dropped.

However, the edit was made - again, with even more extranious detail and random italian quotes - [1]. This is problematic. I do not think that adding this level of detail, or random italian words throught the section is appropriate. Please explain what details need to be added to the article, with reliable secondary sources. Do not continue to just reinsert the detail without discussing. Thanks. Hipocrite (talk) 18:07, 25 April 2011 (UTC)

Per WP:NPOV, the suspect's version of events is being added into the text of his criminal trial, so that the text is not only the viewpoint of the prosecution, but reflects a balance of what he stated and the court's conclusion. Guede was charged with murder, sexual assault and theft, and hence, the details of his statements address those 3 charges. All issues had been discussed, thoroughly, above under topic "#Primary sourced description of trial". Please re-read all of that entire talk-page section. You seem to have missed those other days of discussion after you previously removed the added details about the Guede trial. Thank you. -Wikid77 23:35, 25 April 2011 (UTC)

Reviewing the edit more closely, I have even more substantial problems with it - specifically, it includes the text "Guede also said that Amanda Knox was not in the cottage on the night," sourced to [2]. That article states "Guede said that Knox was not in the house on the night." However, Guede's story, according to [3] had "two shadowy figures he would later identify as Knox and Sollecito." I am unclear as to why his statements are selectively presented to absolve Knox in our article. Hipocrite (talk) 18:24, 25 April 2011 (UTC)

That two-shadowy-figure text contradicts the actual Guede trial records; see topic below "#Guardian.co.uk article contradicts Guede trial records". -Wikid77 00:25, 26 April 2011 (UTC)

My reaction to this edit by Wikid77 is best described as "disappointed". I can find no explanation for it other than an unhealthy dose of IDIDNTHEARTHAT. Not addressing concerns raised on the talk page, wait a few days, then re-insert pretty much the same material... I would also point out that Wikid77 restored the close paraphrase that we discussed and I fixed and all of the weasel words and POV ("alleged date", "however" etc.) that we constructively worked out. --Errant ^(chat!) 19:22, 25 April 2011 (UTC)

All issues had been discussed, thoroughly, and changes made in response to concerns above under "#Primary sourced description of trial". The wording you had rejected was "supposed date" which I changed to "alleged date", and other text had been removed by User:Hipocrite. Also, please re-read all of that entire section about the other issues. Thank you. -Wikid77 23:35, 25 April 2011 (UTC)

How is alleged date any better? It clearly has the same issues :S We 'fixed' that problem after discussion. You reverted the problematic copyvio text and weasel words that we worked out above, seemingly with no thought. There was no agreement to add the rest of the material above, the discussion just petered out, really waiting for your input (though I did incorporate some of the material), input you never gave - just added all the stuff back. --Errant ^(chat!) 09:03, 26 April 2011 (UTC)

Yes, the amount of detail included appears to have been excessive in places (I query the motivation behind the sentence about listening to an iPod, for example). I also agree that inserting the occasional translation in Italian serves more to distract than truly educate. This is precisely the kind of inordinate expansion to which my remarks in this section are aimed: filling out the article with rather copious detail is not necessarily a beneficial exercise, and has the potential to render the text difficult to follow. The use of sources here is also open to debate, as Hipocrite has pointed out. SuperMarioMan 21:54, 25 April 2011 (UTC)

Actually, all issues had been discussed, thoroughly for days, under "#Primary sourced description of trial". The use of the Italian phrases (in parentheses) was to connect the text to the sourced Italian wording (which has no page numbers), as requested by users asking for direct quotes to pinpoint the phrases in the source. They, specifically, asked for Italian text quotes which addressed each phrase, plus secondary sources, and for those reasons, the section I added (in this edit) is one of the most heavily footnoted text sections in all Wikipedia articles. Please re-read all of that entire talk-page section. Thank you. -Wikid77 23:35, 25 April 2011 (UTC)

I'm removing most of the parenthesis Italian you just re-added. It doesn't help make the text readable and risks confusing the reader. Use the "ref" tags if it is important to help locate it in the source. --Errant ^(chat!) 09:07, 26 April 2011 (UTC)

Guardian.co.uk article contradicts Guede trial records

The article "Meredith Kercher: Man jailed for 30 years for killing British student" (Guardian.co.uk, 29 October 2008, web: G-Oct29) contains a statement that seems totally contrary to other sources: "Guede has claimed that he had retreated to the bathroom with stomach pains seconds before two shadowy figures he would later identify as Knox and Sollecito burst in and stabbed Kercher." (contradicted by many statements in the Micheli Judgment about the Guede trial). According to other sources, Guede listened to 3 songs (not lasting mere "seconds") in his iPod earphones, and stated that about 5 minutes passed, and he confronted a lone man with a knife, and there was no one else in the house with that man.

As you might know, I have tried to expand Guede's trial-section text, as sourced to secondary sources plus the Italian-language Micheli Judgment (filed on 26 January 2009), where Judge Micheli reports that Guede stated he ran to Kercher's room and found a lone man, with a knife, standing over Kercher bleeding on the floor. Guede stated that he struggled with the man, who cut him in the hand, then Guede fell to the floor, but picked up a chair, and the man fled from the house. There was no mention of Knox, or any other woman, being in the house with them. Guede stated there was only the one man and one knife (Italian: coltello), which Guede could not describe or indicate length (indicare lunghezza). This is the first time I have seen a so-called reliable source which directly contradicts several details of the actual Guede trial records, although I am aware how other editors warned that some news reports were incorrect.

Accusatory text against Knox & Sollecito was added to the MoMK article, based on that contradicted text, and I feel compelled to remove it, per WP:BLP concerns when I know it is contradicted by many other reliable sources. However, because this is a battle between WP:RS sources, I will allow some discussion first. -Wikid77 00:25, 26 April 2011 (UTC)

Guede changed his story several times so this may be an issue of timing. They may have published whatever rendition he had at the moment. It would not be strange to see such contradictions. I don't think removing it is the right way to go.
⋙–Berean–Hunter—► ((⊕)) 00:59, 26 April 2011 (UTC)

It can't be in there without the context of how the story changed.LedRush (talk) 01:07, 26 April 2011 (UTC)

So the problem is not about the removal of the source but rather determining the choice of words to illustrate Guede changed his story several times. The source is backed up by the Telegraph with Guede stating that Knox & Sollecito were in the house 1. It comes out slightly different that he heard Amanda...struggled with Sollecito...saw Knox & Sollecito running away. The Telegraph backs the Guardian in that Guede states they were in the house.
⋙–Berean–Hunter—► ((⊕)) 01:28, 26 April 2011 (UTC)

• Guede's trial had closed hearings (with no reporters present, as stated in many sources). Plus, note the Micheli Judgment was not published until 26 January 2009 (90 days from 28 October 2008, not 60 days as believed in that same incorrect Guardian source above), at which time, the press finally had access to actual details of those secluded court sessions. I strongly object to removing detailed text, backed by multiple sources, to add 3 phrases of vague text which would be contradicted by much of prior text and its many sources. According to the Micheli Judgment, Guede stated that he and Kercher "toured the whole house" (Italian: giro per tutta la casa), room-to-room, and found no evidence of a break-in. What happened here was a POV hatchet job on the article: removing extensive multi-sourced text and replacing it with vague, misleading text contrary to much of the deleted text and its many sources. -Wikid77 01:40, 26 April 2011 (UTC)

I agree with Wikid. This needs to be fixed or this section of the MoMK article is nothing more than a smear of Knox and Sollecito. If filibustering occurs on this issue Wikid should go ahead and boldly remove this smear. We waste too much time on this talk page accomodating the views of extremists. CodyJoeBibby (talk) 11:10, 26 April 2011 (UTC)

"We waste too much time on this talk page accomodating the views of extremists"
That's a pretty ... extreme point of view. pablo 11:23, 26 April 2011 (UTC)

• The rumors about Knox and Sollecito were removed, earlier, within 40 minutes after I started this talk-page topic. The incorrect text in numerous British news reports is causing some people to have extreme views which are refuted by many fact-checked sources and refuted by the Italian court documents for the first Guede trial and first Knox/Sollecito trial (2 of 5 trials). -Wikid77 13:15, 26 April 2011 (UTC)

Errors in Guardian and Telegraph sources

After re-reading another article, I have found more factual errors, this time from a Telegraph article, 5 December 2009. Having 2 publications, the Guardian.co.uk & Telegraph, with several factual errors could be the reason some people claim that problems in the MoMK article are "based on British tabloids". The errors in the Guardian.co.uk article "Amanda Knox trial: Rudy Guede profile" (5 December 2009, web: Tel245) involve several incorrect statements about Guede:

• "he had been held in Milan in the weeks before the murder" - actually, according to the Guede trial & Knox trial records, Guede had been booked on 27 October 2007, just 5 days before the murder (in the same week).
• held "for an alleged theft" - actually, Guede was booked on multiple charges, including "carrying a concealed knife" in his backpack, which the school director said came from the kitchen, and "possession of stolen property".
• "to hide from police" - This event, on 27 October 2007, was 5 days before the Kercher murder, with no need to hide, and I did not find any other sources which claimed Guede was hiding in that nursery school in Milan.
• "had a knife in his hand when he was eventually arrested" - actually, the school director testified she called the police because he was inside the school afterhours, and when they searched Guede's backpack, they found the kitchen knife, a laptop (with accessories) plus cellphone (both stolen 14 October 2007 from a Perugia law office burgled with a rock through an upstairs window), and a woman's watch, a hammer (etc.) in Guede's backpack.

There are just so many factual errors in that report ("Amanda Knox trial: Rudy Guede profile") by "Nick Squires in Perugia", despite all those details having been carefully reported by others earlier during 2009, so it is difficult to trust anything in that particular article. These types of misinformation in British publications might be a major reason why some editors have been questioning the actions of other editors. By focusing on these incorrect "WP:Reliable sources" then perhaps we can get editors to avoid attacking other editors, when the real problems are in the incorrect sources. -Wikid77 02:28, 26 April 2011 (UTC)

It sounds like you are assuming one source is correct...so the others must be wrong. That is a dangerous way to consider sources. As a fact, the Telegraph was getting information directly from Guede (right or wrong) before his arrest and the Italians didn't have access and/or they have chosen to dismiss some of what he said (perhaps rightly so). The Italian prosecutors/court also changed their story along the way to fit things...from cult ritual to sex game to dispute between flatmates, etc. The sources are publishing from the info they have/had. All of the sources will be in error in one way or another. I am against removing them as sources if that's where you are going with this.
⋙–Berean–Hunter—► ((⊕)) 03:12, 26 April 2011 (UTC)

I am basing my conclusions on multiple sources, as multiple sources in English and multiple in Italian, using the concept of fact-checked text with multiple independent sources. I realize this is a difficult situation for Wikipedia's current policies, and that is why some savvy editors have abandoned Wikipedia as incapable of sorting the facts of this case, based on current sources. It would be a culture shock to remove British sources which speak of a sensationalized murder most foul and bloody where one suspect "had a knife in his hand when he was eventually arrested" (not according to multiple sources, which stated he was booked for a "concealed weapon"). Also, imagine the disappointment of Italian editors being limited to fact-checked text, when the Italian courtroom is "grand opera" of condemning the "narcissistic" Knox and her helpless male puppets. I would not be surprised how Knox/Sollecito were convicted in Act I ("colpevole" - guilty!) and could be acquitted in Act II as the appropriate dramatic turn ("innocente!") in this cosmic play. I just don't want editors, here, to conclude we are arguing over facts, when the arguments are obviously based on sensational British news reports and high drama of sleeping jurors awakened in Italian courts. However, I do appreciate the time you have spent working towards a fact-checked neutral viewpoint. -Wikid77 04:59, 26 April 2011 (UTC)

I think we can all agree that this issue is important and difficult. What is clear here is that this was (and remains, to a lesser degree) an extremely high profile and fast moving case in which many newspapers - even normally quite reliable ones - jumped the gun and printed things that are universally agreed today to not be true. This makes using contemporary news accounts rather tricky.

As an update on where I am, in case anyone wonders, last night I started reading my 3rd book about the case, Bruce Fisher's book, Injustice in Perugia. After I have finished it (possibly this weekend, depending - I have a long flight on Thursday and might get to it then), then what I hope to do is start through the article looking for places where I can cite facts to at least the two books that seem to be generally agreed upon as reliable sources.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 14:07, 26 April 2011 (UTC)