User talk:Bishonen

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My RFA

My admin request went up in flames. (But thanks anyways!)

Hey, Bishonen, I wanted to thank you for your support of my (unfortunately unsuccessful) request for adminship. The final tally was 37/16/5, which fell short of the needed 75-80% for "consensus". Your very kind words and thought-out reasoning for your vote really meant a lot to me. What really struck me was how even though my RFA was pretty much a lost cause at that point, you still gave a reasoned, thoughtful vote for me, which made me feel an awful lot better. I don't know if or when I'll go up for nomination again, but even if I don't, I will try not to betray the trust that you and 36 others were willing to place in me. Thanks for having faith in me... and happy editing! (Though you might want to archive your talk page!) Matt Yeager ♫ (Talk?) 01:17, 7 February 2006 (UTC)

I hope you do try again, I think you're an extremely worthy candidate — I don't understand what happened there. :-( Everybody's on my case about the archiving as usual... how about you complainers invest in some 21st century software or something? I do archive this chatboard every few days as it is, you know! Bishonen | talk 01:30, 7 February 2006 (UTC).

Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/Beckjord

A final decision has been reached in this arbitration case.

For the arbitration committee. --Tony Sidaway 06:18, 7 February 2006 (UTC)

As to the surreal aspects: The one year ban was added by the other arbitrators after discussion on irc and the arbcom-l mailing list. It is based on the notion that he is unlikely to anything but cause trouble. The other remedies kick in after the end of the one year ban. Fred Bauder 21:11, 7 February 2006 (UTC)

Rfa??

Hey Bishonen, I was thinking of applying for adminship. I was wondering if you'd have a look at this User:Swatjester/admintest, my test page on it. Thoughts? ⇒ SWATJester ^Ready Aim _Fire! 22:29, 7 February 2006 (UTC)

Since you ask, I will share my thoughts bluntly. I approve of selfnoms. But you express a special regard for the (IMO) three most abused policies/principles in this place, WP:AGF, WP:NPA and "adminship should be no big deal", so you'll hardly find me or those who think like me supporting you. I never yet met a wikilawyering troll who didn't have his/her mouth hypocritically full of those three — indeed, those often seem to be the only polices they've heard of. If applied from good motives (which I'm sure you would do!) those three policies/principles may be beneficial, but I still believe them to be less important than half a dozen others. Bishonen | talk 00:32, 8 February 2006 (UTC).

Cool, thanks for the blunt advice. BTW, I'm taking the liberty of correcting my original post for my new page location. I've also reworked it a bit. I would like to clarify though, I think that AGF and NPA in particular are so important because they're most often ignored. When you look at some of the users that on wikipedia that you most respect, do you ever even once or twice see them violating AGF and NPA? Not me. Hence my adoption of those as my role models. Rest assured I'm applying them from good motives. The no big deal is less of a thing for me, and I've edited my test application to reflect this. Thanks for the constructive criticisms. ⇒ SWATJester ^Ready Aim _Fire! 02:57, 8 February 2006 (UTC)

Re: El C

Rather than get into the discussion on the talk page, I thought I'd respond here. When I said tragedy, I meant that him being gone at all is a tragedy, as he does a lot of good work. As for "the last thing he'd want" I was referring to the edit warring; I'm sure he'd want his page returned to his version, but I think he'd rather have both sides discuss it rather than have an edit war.

Beyond just wanting to see the edit war stop, there was a call for stewards to get involved, and I was hoping to prevent a repeat of Sunday night. It seems to have worked, for the most part. Essjay ^{Talk • Contact} 02:39, 8 February 2006 (UTC)

203-4

At the risk of missing yet another policy crisis, I'm going to try to fix Eliza Haywood and (get this) Charles Johnson (pirate biographer), if not Charles Cotton. It turns out that 201 wasn't 201. I had forgotten that I wrote privileged presses, so my count was off by at least one (I have a feeling there are more like that that I thought too small or insignificant to count when I started the brag list). I appreciate the couch and the just desserts. If there is another massive crisis, do let me know, esp. if it concerns policy rather than personality (my predilection). Anything to avoid grading papers. Geogre 14:09, 8 February 2006 (UTC)

Actually, Charles Cotton is too 1911'ed to mess with. Geogre 14:11, 8 February 2006 (UTC)

Oh, I've been filling in redlinks too, but my new articles are almost always stubs. -- ALoan (Talk) 14:48, 8 February 2006 (UTC)

"Be careful of that Ming vaaahs! <clatter> Oh, you rube!" Well, prepare yourselves for Charles Johnson-not-the-pirate-biographer and probably a rip-'em-up-and-rewrite Susanna Centlivre and definitely a George Duckett. I'm trying to blue all the links in Dunciad so that I can go on and finish it and FAC it, prolly, but some links just have to stay red (the Thorold, Lord Mayor of London in 1717; I know his family from the DNB, but this particular Thorold didn't make the cut). Geogre 16:03, 8 February 2006 (UTC)

Well, who would leave Qing dynasty vases worth £100,000 on a mantelpiece where any old klutz can trip into them. But those two are about 1500 years older than that. -- ALoan (Talk) 17:15, 8 February 2006 (UTC)

I read Sallust, but I don't remember his talking about his garden gnomes. (I didn't think he was overly rich, either, but he was a retired general, so maybe.) Were you filling in Wedgewood?

He had nice gardens, apparently, but also redlinkedbluelinked now, but in the process creating another half dozen redlinks. No, I was filling in redlinks from a titbit I added recently to Waterloo Vase. -- ALoan (Talk) 17:48, 8 February 2006 (UTC)

Hey, Bishonen! You should read the Charles Johnson article. There are some juicy redlinks there that are right up your street, and there is information there relating to your interests, I think. Geogre 16:32, 8 February 2006 (UTC)

I can do a nice article on a court created before I was born and abolished before I was in primary school, though. Not to mention one about the wrong profession, and a hill that is not one of the seven. (Giano should add to all of those.) And a recently-dead Law Lord and an obscure Irish poet. Ha! Who needs featured articles when there are so many redlinks. -- ALoan (Talk) 18:31, 9 February 2006 (UTC)

Wow. At least I have a theme. You're all over the taxonomical map! I do like that last one, though. I must see "what links here" from it. Geogre 20:40, 9 February 2006 (UTC)

Is this the right section on Bish's out-of-control chatroom (wait, I thought it was a salon) for crowing about de novo articles and begging people to fill in your red links? I was scandalized earlier today to learn we lacked an article on gumboot chiton: no longer, my friends, no longer. And just look at that succulent, tantalising red-linked lurid rocksnail...! —Bunchofgrapes (talk) 04:48, 10 February 2006 (UTC)

Chiton gumbo...mmmmmmmmmmmm..... </Homer> As for that rocksnail, the whole neighborhood has been complaining about her behavior, and I don't think that hussy should be anything but scarlet! Geogre 11:29, 10 February 2006 (UTC)

Hey, Bishonen! I made some links to Vanbrugh and Cibber: I just did a nave to narthex rewrite of Susanna Centlivre. The 1911 had at least 3 errors of fact in it. Geogre 18:32, 10 February 2006 (UTC)

Only three? You're kidding me. Cool article! I'm thinking I might (read and) do a shortie on The Basset Table. Oh, hey, and I'm pretty sure Susanna featured in a satirical play. Thinks... I got nothing. But I think she did, along with two other woman dramatists. Some very anti-feminist piece. Did you come across anything like that? I could do a stub, if only I could remember the title, or the author. I need to limber up before attempting any chef d'oeuvre about Thomas Betterton (better not go look, you'll die of rage, I always do). Bishonen | talk 02:29, 11 February 2006 (UTC).

Well, that was three errors of date, I should have said. It had errors of interpretation like you wouldn't believe. First, it had a list of her "best" plays (oh, that's good), and it characterized her as "crude, as was the fashion of those times." It managed three errors of chronology, two major NPOV violations, and a value-laden list all in an article that was about the length of a stub. Then there were errors of omission: it glibly took information for Jacob, which was her own version of her story, without acknowledging that it might not be reliable. It didn't explain how she went from poor dissenter girl to playwright. She was blasted by Pope on three occasions, I gather, although I'm only concerned with The Dunciad. Swift never swiped at her -- his enemies usually being more abstract and less personal -- but she was a big, juicy target for the Tory wits, as she not only took extremist Whig positions but rubbed people's noses in it after the fact. How could you not satirize her? I can't think of a satirical play that she features in and didn't run across any mentions (the DNB author was a fan, and it's dangerous to be anything else these days, lest one be the m-word). She's too late for my buddy Gould to have swatted, but he sure would have, if he'd been writing then (the three marriages would have been enough for him, and the breeches roles would have given him fodder, too). Geogre 04:11, 11 February 2006 (UTC)

Buckingham Palace

Could you put one of your very clever semi-protects on - it seems to be attracting more attention than usual for some reason. Thanks Giano | talk 20:02, 8 February 2006 (UTC)

PS: Such a pity if the magnificent bathroom fitments were to be vandalised!

I believe Bishonen is still on her solidarity strike against use of admin tools with El_C. Looks like the vast majority of the vandalism has been from 85.166.202.244 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · filter log · WHOIS · RDNS · RBLs · http · block user · block log). Blocking is therefore more appropriate than semi-protection; I've warned them and will block if they keep it up. Ping me if I overlook it. —Bunchofgrapes (talk) 20:22, 8 February 2006 (UTC)

Ping you? I'm afraid BoG table tennis has never neen my forte. I don't want them blocked just execute them or whatever those magic buttons do...sometimes I think I'm running this site single handedly...........mutter mutter mutter.21:14, 8 February 2006 (UTC)

I certainly am.[2] Also the "Fuckingham Palace" bit kind of appealed to outraged me...snigger snigger snigger. Giano, have you forgotten how to sign your name again? Good chianti, is it? Bishonen | talk 22:21, 8 February 2006 (UTC).

No the chianti has suddenly gone sour, why is that extra tagged on, and nothing in the edit summary to show I did not write it? Giano | talk 22:56, 8 February 2006 (UTC)

Sorry, I'm lost, what extra? What didn't you write? On my screen it simply looks like your sig is missing in the "Ping you?" post, I only see the date. (That would happen if you typed five tildes instead of four.) Do you see something else on yours? or... shudder... are you telling me the bathroom fitments have started to add themselves? This is getting frightening! I wish we'd never come up with the damn things! Bishonen | talk 23:38, 8 February 2006 (UTC).

Great. Someone deleted wp:an. Gosh, I wonder what's going to happen to him or her. (Prediction: barnstars from "I have the power" people, RFar that goes nowhere.) Geogre 00:43, 9 February 2006 (UTC)

Geogre, it was Sean Black, and done to get rid of a particular edit summary. I think it may be relevant to an e-mail I got a couple of hours ago. Please check your own mail, you should have received the same message. Bishonen | talk 01:17, 9 February 2006 (UTC).

Yep, lucky guess. I just had a word with Sean and his intentions were of the best. No Uncle Ed stuff. So did you get that e-mail, from a victim of stalking, someone you know? I'm betting you did. Anyway, good night. Bishonen | talk 01:30, 9 February 2006 (UTC).

I did. It makes sense. Geogre 12:24, 9 February 2006 (UTC)

About the only thing here that does then! Giano | talk 16:03, 9 February 2006 (UTC)

vote request

Hi I'd appreciate if you could vote below to rename per my suggestion ASAP to avoid no consensus, Thanks! Arniep 00:44, 9 February 2006 (UTC) Wikipedia:Categories_for_deletion/Log/2006_February_1#Category:Americans_living_in_the_UK_to_Category:American_people_living_in_the_United_Kingdom.

Er... what? Why are you sending this to me? It seems a little random. I haven't been involved in any discussion. I don't know the issue. No, I won't vote, sorry. Bishonen | talk 12:54, 9 February 2006 (UTC).

Hi, sorry if I offended you. I was just trying to avoid a no consensus, that's all. The are quite a few Americans in history who are notable for having lived in the UK, Whistler, C R Leslie, Ben Franklin among others. Arniep 15:11, 9 February 2006 (UTC)

Two things

1. You're an admin again, congratulations.
2. Giano's goat recycling image is a Fair Use image. I didn't want to be so rude as to remove it without asking, though.

—Bunchofgrapes (talk) 00:50, 11 February 2006 (UTC)

Thanks, I guess. I'm nevertheless far from happy about the El C situation as it currently stands. Er, why exactly am I the one to get told about the image <cough>Giano<cough>? Bishonen | talk 12:57, 11 February 2006 (UTC).

Honestly, because after the Buckingham Palace conversation up there, I got so confused by what Giano was saying, I couldn't bear to find out whether he was back to the Chianti or still hitting the hard stuff. Is El C still gone from Wikipedia? Oh dear, I hope he reconsiders. —Bunchofgrapes (talk) 17:29, 11 February 2006 (UTC)

Fruitcakes for Onions

I appear to be driving to the Fruitcake Capital of the World today to tote clothing donations to the Goodwill store, so I should be out of town at 3:00 this afternoon. However, I should be in town tomorrow at that time, with only some pesky papers to grade -- and who really needs to do that? -- at work. If it's convenient, please tomorrow? Geogre 15:30, 11 February 2006 (UTC)

Are these the famous onions? Tomorrow then. Bishonen | talk 17:17, 11 February 2006 (UTC).

Both the onions and fruitcake are World Famous, and both are trademarked. The first is much sought after by chefs throughout the civilized world (and Sweden, too). The latter was formerly more popular than presently. Why, every year the former town producing 50,000,000 lbs. of granex onions from an unique soil condition rendered sweet to the taste. The latter produces...a bunch...of fruitcake and is the world's #1 fruitcake town. Geogre 23:11, 11 February 2006 (UTC)

Been there by now, btw, and come back already. Got a chance to play with a long haired dachshund while down there. That dog was not fruity, but he was as nutty as a fruitcake. Geogre 23:11, 11 February 2006 (UTC)

Are you a Cadbury's Fruit and Nut case? Bishonen | talk 23:40, 11 February 2006 (UTC).

Nah, I'm just sweet and looney as a Moonpie. Geogre 03:08, 12 February 2006 (UTC)

Disruptive type of vandalism

I wonder if you have any insight on how technically to deal with something. I think semi-protection should be used massively more than it is; but that's probably not going to happen. Anyway, I mentioned this certain vandal that I seem to have attracted to my talk page via maintaining the Ward Churchill page. The thing that was most troublesome about the vandalism is that this person (under ever changing usernames, but often related names along the lines of our friend "fighterforfreedom") would blank the page and replace it with, e.g. 500 copies of a picture of Bush.

The result, unfortunately, of this change is that I can never seem to load the diff to see specifically what the change is, presumably because the WP server times out before sending all that graphic data. Some other editors rolled back the vandalism of this type to my user page or user talk page, but I don't know if they had actually seen the diff, or just assumed the worst. The thing is that I can view the diff: "Vandal->Reversion" (because the page itself, below the diff, is reasonable); I just can't view the diff: "Good->Vandal". You were one such reverter, I think, so maybe you have insight.

I just found an example of the same thing on the Churchill page. A user, "Mr.Trezon" (but it'll be a different name next time), made this change, with the edit history comment like "minor spelling fix" or something innocuous seeming. I simply could not load the diff to see if it really was a proper change or if it was vandalism. As it happened, the same username had made a comment on the talk page that made me fairly sure (overtly claiming to praise Churchill, but obviously meant sarcastically). So I rolled back to the last version, but with less than perfect confidence I was reverting an actual vandal. Once I made the reversion, I could look at the prior diff, which proved my guess correct. But I don't like reverting blindly.

Any thoughts? Lulu of the Lotus-Eaters 18:29, 11 February 2006 (UTC)

Insight, haha, that'll be the day. Sorry, Lulu. I never have reverted your page, at least not in the past month or two; I'm only in the history for writing you about Fighterforfreedom a few times. Indeed, if I couldn't load a diff, I wouldn't be bold enough to revert. I hope you get more useful replies from other people. Bishonen | talk 19:12, 11 February 2006 (UTC).

Oh, sorry I remembered wrong about the reversion (it wasn't either praise or condemnation to say you had, just a mistake based on the fact we had chatted about FFF around the same time some editors reverted his/her vandalism on my talk page... of course, I hereby praise you in a general way for your fine adminship :-)). Anyway... maybe someone else will have a better answer; it's frustrating not to be able to load the diffs; and it doesn't really make sense to me. Even though 500 copies of an image (or whatever) is a long page, the image itself should only download once into the browser cache. So the timeout perplexes me (but it's very consistent for this situation). Lulu of the Lotus-Eaters 19:37, 11 February 2006 (UTC)

I see the page-never-loads behavior on your user page, Lulu. Pretty odd. You should ask on Wikipedia:Village pump (technical). —Bunchofgrapes (talk) 01:30, 12 February 2006 (UTC)

e-mail

no I didn't get your e-mail. However, as my block is now over I can continue to wreak havok. Don't bother e-mailing me, just stick it on me talk page. cheers. Crestville

Ok, here's the God's honest truth:

It was however pretty rude. Did you really not notice?

Nope. I thought it was a generally polite critique

Btw, as it says on the FAC page, new nominations go at the top.

I can't say I read that bit too closely

Don't you see anything wrong with bouncing yours up to upstage newer noms, with extra attention as the top post and extra time on FAC before your article "rolls off"?

I didn't think about it thqat much

1) What was your purpose in moving the nomination to the top?

So that it hot more attention and constructive critisism.

did you notice Worldtraveller moved your nomination back down with a rather tight-lipped edit summary?

No. I never ventured to read the history page

Johnleemk also warned you that he considered your "playful jibe" a personal attack.

I would like to point out that I was quick to correct him

C'mon, the place for "playful jibes" like that is in interchange with friends who're used to your tone and will (I presume) enjoy it! It's just foolish to hurl them at strangers, and even more foolish to keep it up when they show they've taken umbrage.

I understand your point, but it has never proved a problem in the past.

--Crestville 22:55, 12 February 2006 (UTC)

lol, that's all I wanted to hear :) Thankyou!--Crestville 01:02, 13 February 2006 (UTC)

Bravery

I dodged server crashes, blankings, disappearances, multiple log-ins, etc. to write John Ozell today. He's a minor dunce. However, tonight, if the servers play nice, I'll write a juicy and needed one: Robert Wilks. Not only do you and I both link to that red article several places, but the DNB authors are wholly credulous, relying only on Cibber for their information. Wheee! Geogre 18:24, 13 February 2006 (UTC)

Huh, I wonder if the lockdown is over. We'll see. If so, I'll do the Wilks article either tonight or, if my headache doesn't let up, tomorrow before driving to the local Big City. Geogre 22:55, 13 February 2006 (UTC)

Prem Rawat

Hello Bishonen. I am curious on what attracted your interest to this article, as it has been a while since last round of massive edits. If the article reads as a hagiography, I would be the first one to want to know about it. I haver put too much effort in this article to let it be in a shape that can be challenged as non-compliant with content policies. I hope I did not scare your away with my comment—although I doubt that you are scared off easily if one is to judge by your contributions to the project:). So, could you please point out what other sections need improvements? It will be much appreciated. ≈ jossi ≈ t • @ 01:52, 14 February 2006 (UTC)

Bishonen, Hi from me too. I wonder if you would please take the time to read the argument between Jossi and me that started when Momento said that the only criticism against Rawat is that he's fat, has poor taste, etc. I answered that it was much more than that, that he once claimed to be the Lord and Saviour of Mankind. Jossi said he didn't, I provided the proof and Jossi kept denying that I had proven anything. I'm curious what you think of the relative merits of that argument. Thanks --24.69.14.159 03:45, 15 February 2006 (UTC)

Robert Wilks

Check it out: Robert Wilks exists. Also, though, it turned up a shocking red link, but I'm not going to do it. Geogre 12:57, 14 February 2006 (UTC)

Way cool, great! (Not reading it properly just yet, I'm basically in the middle of a class here.) Did you have a core meltdown and type Charles instead of Christopher, or is there some Rich uncle I don't know about? Bishonen | talk 13:26, 14 February 2006 (UTC).

No, that was just a "typing at 7:00 AM" phenomenon. Christopher is who I meant, and my notes had "Ch Rich," relying on my memory to expand it properly. Well, not at 7:00 AM. I'm glad you corrected it. I think there is a very large Untold Story there somewhere and that DNB did a cruddy job, but so it goes for now. Geogre 14:56, 14 February 2006 (UTC)

I'm getting a lot of mileage out of that one Hogarth image, now added to Robert Wilks. Last chance, you know, to write about Doggett or Oldfield (suspect there's a story there too) or Centlivre. No one venerates them. Geogre 02:17, 15 February 2006 (UTC)

But you hadn't added it to William Hogarth, an omission I have now corrected! -- ALoan (Talk) 10:50, 15 February 2006 (UTC)

Ah, toilet paper, held up by a... That reminds me of some article I saw somewhere in the vicinity a while ago. Tupsharru 11:20, 15 February 2006 (UTC)

Hey, I got a detail of the toilet paper spindle from Hogarth for that article, although I didn't contribute otherwise, except with hints. I have a book of Hogarth prints that I do scans from, sometimes. The advantage is that I can do some very high resolution scans, so one can make out the smallest feature in a crowded lithograph, but, of course, I'm lazy, and there are already scans of The Rake's Progress and The Harlot's Progress on the web, so why bother? Geogre 14:22, 15 February 2006 (UTC)

The image has now been added to the Toilet paper article as well. Tupsharru 14:21, 15 February 2006 (UTC)

Hey, Bishonen! I just did John Tutchin. It's a fascinating story. You might want to take a glance; he was treated very badly by Judge Jeffries in the Bloody Assizes. (Don't you other folks wish you were 18th c. people like I am? My stuff all has cool names.) Geogre 17:46, 15 February 2006 (UTC)

Oh, and Leonard Welsted and, ummm, Edward Tremayne, I think, but the Tutchin one is the interesting one. Geogre 18:21, 15 February 2006 (UTC)

Ok, I think I'm done now. I might do two more, but that's it. I'm getting tired of writing new articles for a while. Then I'll look into buffing up. I think I'll finish Dunciad, start researching some of the 100's of secondaries, adding dozens of notes, and then move it forward. If it goes to FAC, no one will be able to read it. Everyone will say it's too long. At the same time, it'll be a good place for anyone actually studying the poem. We're already the best place to find out who all the targets are. I don't think anyone understands what's necessary for understanding a poem like that or a book like the Tale. A person can spend a decade just getting who and what the poem is talking about and then another half century dealing with the poetics involved. It's a thousand miles away from the plastic self-evidencies and disposable commodities of contemporary culture. Geogre 12:21, 17 February 2006 (UTC)

YM "almost 300 years away from ... etc." HTH HAND. -- ALoan (Talk) 12:59, 17 February 2006 (UTC)

Who's him when he's home? (Your mileage? His Terrible Highness Hand?) (James Moore Smythe is the last dunce, I think. So...that's it, I suppose, but Smythe is a perfect example of the kind of thing that I was complaining about.) Geogre 14:43, 17 February 2006 (UTC)

A bit like Judge Learned Hand, no doubt. -- ALoan (Talk) 15:20, 17 February 2006 (UTC)

Hmm, I had never heard of the Learned Hand, only Band of the Hand, which, of course, was by Michael Mann, and not by Ray Ralston, who played "Mr. Hand," who was the antagonist of Sean Penn playing Jeff Spicoli, and now Sean Penn's nemesis is George W. Bush, while his nemesis is Mr. Salty, and I stopped talking to Mr. Salty years ago. Geogre 20:23, 17 February 2006 (UTC)

Thanks!

Thanks for cleaning up the vandalism on my user and talk pages! Extraordinary Machine 17:06, 14 February 2006 (UTC)

Prem Rawat, welcome to a hornet's nest

Hi Bishonen, thanks for your interest in Prem Rawat. I had and have endless disagreements with Jossi on this article. Numerous RFc have been filed without result.Andries 21:53, 14 February 2006 (UTC)

For the purpose of disclosure, please note that Andries has admitted publicly that he his a "POV pusher" (see diff: [3]) as it pertains to articles related to purported cults, gurus and the like, due to a personal tragedy that he experienced with a guru in his past. The only reason for our disagreements is his attempt to advocate a negative POV in related articles. ≈ jossi ≈ t • @ 00:04, 15 February 2006 (UTC)

Well, I would argue that Jossi tries to present a whitewashed POV. Andries 00:14, 15 February 2006 (UTC)

As a contributor and administrator of WP, and notwithstanding my publicly made statement about being a student of Prem Rawat, my intent in this and other biographical articles, is to follow as close as possible Wikipedia:Biographies of living people, and to have articles that I can feel proud of. I welcome any honest attempt to make this and other articles better. I have welcomed Bishone's involvememt, in particular because of her assertion about the article not having an encyclopedic tone. I look forward to her recommendations. ≈ jossi ≈ t • @ 00:29, 15 February 2006 (UTC)

An outsider who wants to remain one, here: the NPA thing ("personal attacks are blocking offenses," I mean) isn't quite policy, and it doesn't quite govern talk pages. It is, of course, never a good idea to engage in personal attacks, insults, etc., but there are several statutory problems with the guidelines at present that make implementing it as a policy vexatious. While I would agree with anyone who says, "Cut it out, knock it off, quit it, and cease and desist," I would similarly urge those wielding the NPA knife to be aware that it is terribly blunt, has no handle, and has a tendency to increase rather than staunch the flow of blood. Geogre 02:43, 16 February 2006 (UTC)

Thanks for your comments, Geogre. Have you ever been the subject of verbal abuse? Personal attacks harm the very basis of this project. FYI, WP:NPA is an official policy of Wikipedia, and a crucial one IMO. I know that blocking for PA is controvresial, buit I would not hesitate in blocking any user that abuses other editors if their behavior is recurrent and disruptive. Hope that you would agree with me on this. ≈ jossi ≈ t • @ 03:07, 16 February 2006 (UTC)

I suppose I have, but I look at it differently from most people. As I was saying, though, user talk pages are slightly shady, and blocking is slightly shady, but I quite agree that it is policy not to make them. I also agree with you that you should not be the subject of them, and I condemn those making them. Again, we have no disagreement there, but I've seen the overuse of the policy's non-policy part, and generally what happens is that things get worse rather than better. Geogre 11:58, 16 February 2006 (UTC)

I'm almost tempted to join the fracas at Prem Rawat... if only to help Bishonen in her Quixotic quest to see the article get a non-fragment lead sentence. Then again, I guess I don't need the blood pressure spike. Me and my pet gumboot chiton are happy over there far away from the madding crowd. —Bunchofgrapes (talk) 03:11, 16 February 2006 (UTC)

That gumboot chiton is sooooo POV! It's an ad for gumboot chitons everywhere. (Actually, non scriblere satiram difficile est, but there is no reductio ad absurdum that works on Wikipedia after you've seen the Price Is Right Pricing Games category and seen people threaten lawsuits over taxoboxes.) Geogre 16:40, 16 February 2006 (UTC)

I shall have to start a criticism of the gumboot chiton article, to achieve a more balanced approach. That way gumboot chiton can and should remain properly pro-gumboot. Where are these taxobox lawsuits you mention? —Bunchofgrapes (talk) 17:19, 16 February 2006 (UTC)

If I wasn't truly sympathetic about Theo's effect on your blood pressure, Bunch, I'd tell you stop jesting from the sidelines and go dive into the guru talkpage. I'm tired of it. Any tiniest suggestion raises indignation and screenfuls of argufying and comparisons with Pavarotti; it gets exhausting. I mean, Pavarotti. Got an FAC by User:Fuddlemark to copyedit, a more congenial task. Bishonen | talk 18:17, 16 February 2006 (UTC).

Bishonen, I want to thank you for your courage to go into the hornet's nest and I fully understand that you could not endure it for very long. In relation to that I would like to ask you some questions about the article. What do you think that the ranking is of the Prem Rawat article in the following lists in the whole of the English Wikipedia.

1. Most disputed
2. Most abusive talk page
3. Most reverted
4. Article with the highest ratio arguing on the talk page divided by useful edits

Another question, do you think that the Prem Rawat article is just an example of what is yet to come for many articles on Wikipedia or is it just an unfortunate exception? Thanks in advance for your answers. Andries 20:51, 16 February 2006 (UTC)

Most abusive? You've got to be kidding me. Or else you don't edit much in topics touching on nationalism or Israel or religion or gender or, for god's sake, linguistics. You ain't seen abusive till you've seen a language talk page, or one of the nightmarish RFCs based on them <cough>Requests for comment/Antifinnugor<cough>. Heck, most posts on Talk:Prem Rawat are perfectly civil! No, but your other three lists, yes, Prem Rawat would rank sadly high on those. I'd put good money on it in the arguing/useful edits stakes. I don't know how you do it, Andries, keeping on and on trying to improve such a well-policed, clamped-down, always-bouncing-back piece. --Bishonen | talk 21:27, 16 February 2006 (UTC).

Jossi is right that my persistence in this matter is due to my background. If you have time, could you please comment at Wikipedia_talk:Biographies_of_living_persons#Ways_to_assess_a_proportionate_fraction_of_criticism_and_controversy. Thanks. Andries 17:39, 18 February 2006 (UTC)

Happy Valentine's day!

Happy Valentine's Day, my dear Bishonen!
Phædriel

Memory Alpha

I wanted your thoughts on this issue as I'm a little perplexed. Memory Alpha is a featured article, but it also appears to fail WP:WEB. Steve block talk 10:48, 15 February 2006 (UTC)

Our synchronized anon block

Hi 美少年 (Bishonen in original kanji), it seems we have a thing for blocking one user at the same time. Fortunately, User:Freakofnurture had a quick sense that he fixed the problem almost immediately! Please see the block log. Thank you. --BorgQueen 18:21, 17 February 2006 (UTC)

Yeah, we both watch Gay and keep an eye on Theo, I guess. Thanks very much for the kanji! I've put 'em on my userpage. :-) Bishonen | talk 19:53, 17 February 2006 (UTC).

Articles of interest

My recent article list:

1. James Moore Smythe I liked this one a lot. I liked my writing in it, anyway.
2. John Tutchin Scourged, flogged, rewarded, flogged, killed.
3. Leonard Welsted Some theatrical evidence from Drury Lane 1726. It's also interesting that he sort of stepped into the "hero of the whigs" role, and yet Pope really makes fun of how light he is, not how bad. Ahhhhhh! Correction from our earlier correspondence: it was Welstead who wrote The Prophecy that I read. That's good, because I thought at the time that the poem was quite good, and I was afraid that a bad poet like Tutchin had fooled me. Instead, it was a good poet who had fooled me with a good poem. (Anyone want to sponsor my editing a collection entitled "The Dunces?" It'll sell to all classes studying Dunciad. It could reach sales in the hundreds in a single year!)
4. Dulness Another "faux mythological creature in the western tradition," to use my own phrase from "Sylph," but it has some critical observation in it.
5. George Duckett This one is sort of dull, IMO. He appears to have been a dull man, too, and he's yet another of the probably gay men associated with Addison's "little senate." There seem to be rather a lot of them.
6. John Ozell This one I like, because it shows how even translators were part of the political struggle. All he did was translate, but that was more than enough (look within to find out how), and he drew fire from Pope and Swift, which is something only Curll and Defoe can claim as well.
7. Robert Wilks You've read this one, I think.
8. Edward Tremayne Elizabethan: one of the guys plotting against Mary and trusted by (and then rewarded by) Elizabeth, but Puritan.

That's them. Geogre 02:59, 19 February 2006 (UTC)

Hilarity: I had cause to look again at my poor appropriation from Lempriere, Hyperborea. If you see it now, I'm going to bet you can tell where my authorship ends and very neatly where everyone else's begins. :-) Geogre 15:49, 19 February 2006 (UTC)

See, now this is the way to get me to finish the article.  :-) Jossi has been fixing a lot of my dumber mistakes (thanks, man), and that makes me read it, and when I read it, I think of things to say, and I think of people I haven't explained, and that makes me want to crack the spine of the book again and do a quick jaunt through the end of Bk IV and then Explain It All before going back to grab secondaries (a storehouse of books in my head/ Forever reading never to be read). One thing is clear, though: before I do it, I have to fix Eliza Haywood. Until I do that, there is a hole in what has already been built, because the existing article is a 1911 dump, and it does nothing at all to explain why she'd have gotten herself into the Dunciad. (And now I have to remember who wrote Harlequin Dr. Faustus -- it was Theobbald, I think.) Geogre 17:28, 19 February 2006 (UTC)

Harlequin Dr. Faustus was written by no one (Wilks, Cibber, and Booth), but what I was trying to remember was that Henry Carey (writer) (which needs to be cleaned up I understand to "conform to a higher standard of quality") wrote the music for it. I therefore had to amend The Dunciad to point out that plays that like were loathed by Pope, but that doesn't mean he wasn't friends or friendly with some of the stiffs who worked on them. Geogre 21:01, 19 February 2006 (UTC)

Last chance to read Eliza Haywood before I rewrite it. Really, seeing it now is as powerful an argument against the "Short Biographical Dictionary" as anyone could make. It's a disgusting article, although I added an image with caption. I will rewrite it today, and then I can rest until finishing the Book IV of Dunciad and whatever new dunces need work. Geogre 12:53, 20 February 2006 (UTC)

Lucky 6.9 RfC

Please explain exactly what is wrong. I think that there may have been a software glitch, because I did use the template. Robert McClenon 18:57, 19 February 2006 (UTC)

E-mail whenever you want

You can e-mail me whenever you want. Please note that I use MSN most frequently, which may or may not be beneficial towards your preference of communication. Anyway, sorry for complaining on the FAC page, I'm just very upset right now. Take care! —Eternal Equinox | talk 19:55, 19 February 2006 (UTC)

I've fixed the error. It will work now, I hope. —Eternal Equinox | talk 20:42, 19 February 2006 (UTC)

I've responded. —Eternal Equinox | talk 21:17, 19 February 2006 (UTC)

Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/Theodore7

This arbitration case has closed. Theodore7 is banned for six months from editing astrology- or astronomy-related articles. He is also placed on personal attack parole for a year, and is required to use edit summaries for the next six months. These remedies will be enforced by blocking. For further details, please see the case. On behalf of the arbitration committee, Johnleemk | Talk 09:31, 20 February 2006 (UTC)

Image problems

Is there a suitable template for images that do have both source and a license, but you doubt the license is correct? My issue is pretty much every image that one particular user has uploaded [4] I asked him about two of them; I got no reply but he removed one of the pics from the article where it was used. as far as I can judge a couple of them maybe should be labelled "logo", which is under fair use, but most of these images I rhink are unfree just lifted off various websites. What is the correct forum for this type of things? I usually just ask people about their uploaded images, but when they don't respond you've got to do something else. // Habj 14:55, 20 February 2006 (UTC)

Sorry, Habj, I don't know the correct forum, but if you're an IRCer, #wikipedia on Freenode is often used for such matters, and your problem sounds to me like the kind of thing where real-time communication would be good. I keep noticing people arriving on IRC to ask image copyright questions, and there generally seems to be somebody knowledgeable about to steer them right. Bishonen | 美少年 15:15, 20 February 2006 (UTC).

OK, done. It ended up at Wikipedia:Possibly unfree images, then we'll see what happens. // Habj 01:50, 21 February 2006 (UTC)

Proud to be a Tarheel (aka the DNB is POV!)

I've never been happier that I chose to go to Carolina for my doctorate. My leading alternative at that time was Rochester, where a certain person would have been my dissertation advisor. Well, that person wrote the DNB article on Haywood, and...words fail me. Then I read an article on Elizabeth Canning, since the Haywood article mentioned that the Canning case would bother Henry Fielding until the end of his life, and that was written by a nice, antique, British positivist who told me the facts and got out of the way, as opposed to the Haywood author, who told the life entirely out of order (by genre instead of time) and kept quoting secondary sources for evaluations of how wonderful and important and central Haywood is, how elaborately Haywood is investigating gender, how everything she wrote was a pure invention, how all her works are pioneering, etc. Blug. It may take me a long time to rewrite the Haywood article, as I have to construct an actual article out of the information I got (which was incomplete, disjointed, and impassioned). Geogre 15:12, 20 February 2006 (UTC)

If you didn't look, you missed it. Eliza Haywood has been rewritten (and Elizabeth Canning, but that one really didn't have many problems except a few dates, a little missing stuff, and some archaic presentation). Geogre 17:00, 20 February 2006 (UTC)

I blinked and it was gone. Hmmm. If not Centlivre, then surely Haywood was one of the lady playwrights in the misogynistic satirical play at the back of my mind (a roomy, empty, cobwebbed place). Especially since you called her one of the Fair Triumvirate, didn't you? Lemme check Chadwyck-Healey. Meanwhile, attempting pathetically to earn my salt, I've done you a redirect. Bishonen | 美少年 19:27, 20 February 2006 (UTC).

Nope, nothing there. How can this be so hard? Hey, your Eliza Haywood is excellent! Backscheider, hmmm. Aha. I've read a book by her. Well, partially read, you know. Bishonen | 美少年 19:35, 20 February 2006 (UTC).

Yeah, she did that big Defoe biography. I'm glad she wasn't my advisor. I haven't read the Defoe biography, as all reports were that it suffered from over-reading and over-study, but the DNB article was a little less wide eyed than the Critics but not much. She showed some awareness of the rest of the world of 18th c. literature and so mediates some of the "she is the first woman to write a marriage novel!!!!!" stuff the critics want to pass off, but she still repeats it, ringing the bell and telling us to ignore it. Geogre 23:20, 20 February 2006 (UTC)

With a title like this, A Wife to be Lett (1724) sure could be misogynistic. I found myself in difficulty in explaining Pope's attack. He seems to be suggesting that she's a whore in person as well as in writing. Given the way he treats the men, that's hardly a shocking attack (eating feces, urinating over one's head, diving in sewers? compared to that an allegation of whoring is a positive compliment), and I don't need to free him from charges of misogyny anyway -- he needs no defense at this late date when we eagerly forgive Nietzsche and Yeats. Still, I didn't find enough from the DNB to explain the particulars of Pope's inclusion of Haywood. Geogre 02:50, 21 February 2006 (UTC)

Bish, I've been trying to follow up on my previous stuff, but there are a couple of WP pages that just don't work from my home machine. It's aggravating. These tend to be the long pages (reference desk), but not always (FAC): the pages get to a certain point and then just stop. Now, it could be a Mozilla issue. It could be a dirty code (someone's got an HTML code in their comment that effectively does a virtual divide by zero), but, whatever it is, it stops me. Oh, and then I get blocked again because of some twit on AOL. Blug. We'll see what happens when the DNB author finds the Wikipedia article, as she surely will. Geogre 13:23, 21 February 2006 (UTC)

Mozilla at work. Mozilla at home. Your sig, FAC, and Reference Desk all display at work. At home, flowers don't bloom, worlds don't bounce, and FAC is too long and polluted. Geogre 20:49, 21 February 2006 (UTC)

Footnotes

Some of us find these things very interesting! If you want to be useful why not try and find me an image of Tom King for my new page - looking through dozens of images of hunky men should prove diverting for you this afternoon! Giano | talk 12:09, 21 February 2006 (UTC)

Colley Cibber

Hi, UDScott, thank you for creating a Wikiquote page for Colley Cibber. I was watching the article (I wrote most of it), and noticed you adding the wikiquote template. I appreciate it! Where did you get those cool quotes? Bishonen | 美少年 22:43, 20 February 2006 (UTC).

• No problem. I actually got those quotes from Bartlet's Familiar Quotations. I've been working my way through, adding pages where necessary and adding quotes where pages already exist. I stay pretty active over on wikiquote, usually just popping in here to add the wq link where needed. ~ UDScott 14:00, 21 February 2006 (UTC)

Another dunce

Jonathan Smedley: Surprisingly, John Butt didn't say anything in the Yale UP edition of Dunciad about him. It's surprising because he's actually a well deserved placement in the poem. The guy would be recognizable today, I suspect, as a red scare kind of guy. Geogre 16:38, 22 February 2006 (UTC)

Oh, I also found out that Henry Carey was Edmund Kean's grandfather. Neat, eh? Geogre 16:45, 22 February 2006 (UTC)

Special, limited time offer: If you have any singers/dancers/jugglers/composers you want researched, let me know. My library has The New Grove Dictionary of Music and Musicians, and its coverage is nearly the same as the DNB, but with particular emphasis on the musical accomplishments. It was a good help for Carey, for example. Geogre 22:10, 22 February 2006 (UTC)

Purcell! And Elizabeth Knepp! (My Lady Fidget to you.) Bishonen | ノート 22:28, 22 February 2006 (UTC).

Holy smokes! The Purcell article is a 1911 dump, boasting of a reference by Runcifal! Ick! (Major work to be done there...not sure I'm the man, but I'll try to help.) Knepp should be interesting (and my lady fidgets, too, but only when I try to sit next to her). Geogre 01:01, 23 February 2006 (UTC)

Not sure there's more to say about Knepp than I already did, but it'd be great if you'd take a look. She was "the most excellent, mad-humoured thing", see The Country Wife. Bishonen | ノート 11:18, 23 February 2006 (UTC).

Take a look

Have a look at the timeline in Isambard Kingdom Brunel, what do you think about giving poor neglected old JV one, he hasn't had a spruce up for ages. Giano | talk 08:49, 23 February 2006 (UTC)

Hmm. I have to admit I looked long and hard for exactly that kind of thing when I did the timeline that's in JV now. It's kind of neat. You do it, dear. :-) (I don't much like the red colour, though. Blue? Pale purple?) Bishonen | ノート 11:15, 23 February 2006 (UTC).

You can choose your own colours. There is a horizontal version in List of popes (graphical). See Wikipedia:EasyTimeline. -- ALoan (Talk) 11:20, 23 February 2006 (UTC)

No my dear, I wasn't suggesting that I do it - I'm far too busy and doing important things - I thought perhaps you might have the time - perhaps you ALoan mught like to have a go. BoG sound like he's quite techinical, I've always said he sounds very clever and talented. Not Geogre I've seen the way he handles that gun. Giano | talk 18:22, 23 February 2006 (UTC)

The buttering-me-up almost worked, then I went and looked at these timelines... Ugh! Text as bitmaps? Non-antialiased too? Horrible. Might as well build your own in Microsoft Paint, as use that. —Bunchofgrapes (talk) 18:30, 23 February 2006 (UTC)

I've had to nip-and-tuck here and there, but Template:John_Vanbrugh_timeline is not far off. For some reason, if comes out too wide and won't right-float, but it is almost there... -- ALoan (Talk) 19:24, 23 February 2006 (UTC)

Looks great, thanks very much, ALoan! Will it left-float, then? I was thinking we might try it on the left of "Legacy" or something. Well, I know right-float is better, on account of the heading being on the left. (Giano, do specify a colour if you don't like my purple [cruel laugh]). Bishonen | ノート 21:58, 23 February 2006 (UTC).

If you guys need some Photoshopping, let me know. I assume, though, that y'all are trying to accomplish with all HTML commands something that looks like a picture but isn't. Geogre 22:39, 23 February 2006 (UTC)

• Gosh! that's really clever ALoan I knew all along you were the man to do it, and that BoG (you can tell he's never been anywhere near an English public school, choosing a name like that) would not be clever enough to do it. Geogre shut up you are distracting ALoan, and yes I think the pale purple is OK, but perhaps a deep blue would be better. It's looking good, I am glad I thought of this. Giano | talk 01:01, 24 February 2006 (UTC)

April Fool's Day Main Page

I've been thinking a good April Fool's Day joke this year would be to move the Main Page and replace it with a detailed, factual, well-researched article about Main Pages, conforming to every Wikipedia stylistic convention and cliché. This has the support of Jimbo Wales and Mark Pellegrini (User:Raul654?), the latter of whom suggested I write to you and told me about your work on European toilet paper holder. I have a few ideas for one at User:Seahen/Main Page, but I am wondering whether you and your friends could contribute? (I'd be particularly interested to see what people come up with under Criticisms, and what they do for Main Page (disambiguation). Thanks in advance. Seahen 12:05, 23 February 2006 (UTC)

(Evil chuckle.) Geogre 14:10, 23 February 2006 (UTC)

Yeah... thanks. Ignore Geogre, he's jealous. I'll think about it; don't feel a great wave of inspiration engulfing me so far, but maybe later. Best, Bishonen | ノート 14:14, 23 February 2006 (UTC).

Oh, I wasn't chuckling over that. I was chuckling because I can always be counted on to think up a "criticism of." Any chance I get to take a dig at my one-time colleagues, I will, regardless of the topic, so I added a "criticism of main pages." Geogre 14:18, 23 February 2006 (UTC)

Tee hee. :-) Pretty cool, Geogre. Am I gonna have to add the footnotes myself? Bishonen | ノート 14:26, 23 February 2006 (UTC).

I'm sorry I am far too busy with ALoan's obelisk, and a murdering boxer. Also I'm not sure editor's of my standing and respect in the Wikipedia Community who are so frequently and often on the real front page (twice this week alone - did I mention that already?) should be involved with tomfoolery of this kind. Of course it won't matter if you are though Bishonen.Giano | talk 14:33, 23 February 2006 (UTC)

Quite, quite, and a Mona Lisa smile right back at you, honey. Bishonen | ノート 14:44, 23 February 2006 (UTC).

I wrote all that before my brain woke up, this morning. I will think of how to invent some footnotes, but nothing to do with wp:cite or wp:ref or wp:note or whatever the hell it is that the fussbudgets demand. I have to prep a lesson for tomorrow morning, though, for a Young Writer's Conference. This is going to be interesting, as it means my first foray into downloading music. Geogre 21:15, 23 February 2006 (UTC)

The Criticisms section looks plausible, but not too accessible. Don’t forget, though, that Wales, Pellegrini and I all say the article should be as factual as any other -- not something that would reside exclusively at WP:BJAODN or Uncyclopedia from April 2 on. In JW's own words:

First, last year we had a big long ongoing fight between people who wanted to have a hoax front page or hoax story on the front page and people who didn't. It was icky.

Second, I believe that simply doing a hoax front page is too lame for Wikipedians. We're too smart for that! We need humor with layers of complexity.

Therefore, what I'm advocating for is a main page which is all 100% true in every respect, but filled with things which are so outlandish that people *assume* that it's a joke/hoax. We get 1,000 extra points if we manage to have a mainstream news source report that we had put up a fake home page for the day. Now *that* would be cool.

Seahen 22:18, 23 February 2006 (UTC)

Well, then never mind it all. I'm not particularly interested in the project. Satire is much more interesting than shuffling dullness about in new and fascinating ways. Also, if one suspects that what is in BJAODN or Uncyclopedia bears any relation to what I was doing, then I'm definitely not interested in it. (Back to real work.) Geogre 22:34, 23 February 2006 (UTC)

Agreed. I'd be surprised if you or JW get to herd these cats, Seahen. Bishonen | ノート 22:40, 23 February 2006 (UTC).

One note: where the words Main Page appear in the article, they should always be capitalized; otherwise, by convention, the article's title would have a lowercase p. Seahen 22:36, 23 February 2006 (UTC)

(It's just soooo inviting!) Geogre 22:37, 23 February 2006 (UTC) (And now it's Jimbo, Raul, and I. Something about this series.... Good luck on humor by tax collector and joking by committee. I know I look forward to seeing the results.) Geogre 10:30, 24 February 2006 (UTC)

On a similar theme, I have just revisited intentionally blank page... -- ALoan (Talk) 17:27, 24 February 2006 (UTC)

Email J Marple (Mr!)

Thank you, Bish.

I'm glad that I checked the RfC page before logging out. I've just sent you an e-mail, BTW. - Lucky 6.9 07:44, 25 February 2006 (UTC)

Wow, I'm glad you caught it, that was close. I typed slowly as always, and the promised WP:ANI post only appeared about 45 seconds ago. Bishonen | ノート 07:51, 25 February 2006 (UTC)

Sigh

I tried. The font was going to be a drag no matter what, but, of course, I didn't know it would be this much of a drag. I'll try again later. Geogre 12:42, 25 February 2006 (UTC)

Great, thanks, sweetheart! If you embiggen it later, that's cool; if not, it's also cool, I'll just display that one a little larger for easy reading. Thank you! I do like getting Joseph comprehensible. He has his own article, you know. :-) Bishonen | ノート 12:59, 25 February 2006 (UTC).

He does! How strange that whoever wrote it didn't take the opportunity to engage in a little criticism. I always regard articles on characters as being justifiable only when they have such a strong standing in culture as being symbols outside of their works, and Joseph K is certainly one of those. I.e. it shouldn't be merged, but only because Joseph K, like Gregor Samsa, is a semi-frequent pop allusion, but it's an allusion because of his associations with victimization by the faceless machine of the law, the meaningless of the individual, the alienation of the late capitalist civilization, the dissociation of the self inherent in a society with an overly developed ethical (not moral) sense, etc. Anyhow, it's one of those things. Some people create articles because they heard of the name, some because the name is important for contemporary cultural literacy. Geogre 14:42, 25 February 2006 (UTC)

I see now that I should have been/should get involved in this RFC fiasco. Speaking of fiascos, Laurence Eusden is ... is ... odd. We have someone attempting to do the right things, I think, but not quite getting "NPOV." The POV is cited, and it's right, but it's ... ungentlemanly, perhaps, and unscholarly certainly. Geogre 17:11, 25 February 2006 (UTC)

Keep on Sighing

Hermeticism is a think I linked to after someone correctly brought up Pope's Preface to Rape of the Lock and Pope saying that he got the sylphs from French Rosicrucianism. One of my dicta, and I really need to put it on my user page, in a section called "The Sayings of the Wise Geogre," is Wikipedia is not a venue for negotiating the ultimate truth of reality or metaphysics." I.e. "Don't come here to tell the world about the true religion or the true secret history of the Kennedy assassination." Geogre 17:47, 26 February 2006 (UTC)

And then I noticed this brand new article about noney-non luftfarden, and half of it is in some foreign language! Perhaps we need to get an expert like Jmabel to translate it for us? :-) Geogre 12:50, 27 February 2006 (UTC)

Take a look at the cool piccie that's there now! See, this is my problem: the photos that were found in 1930 are half the story, and I'm in two minds whether it's ok to use them. Not that I care so much that the Andrée Museum in Gränna asserts copyright; museums always do. Nils Strindberg who took the pictures died in 1897, so in that sense it's cut-and-dried: public domain by virtue of age. BUT, the photos had to be treated, perhaps extensively, certainly with expertise, to come out at all, after the exposed film had been sitting in the snow for 30 years. Nice special problem, huh? I've got the name of the guy who treated them, and his nationally very well-known institution KTH, in there now. I'm very unsure of this. I would so much love to be able to do an article with a wealth of great pictorial material for once!

Furthermore, Tyrone Martinsson, that I also mention now, has recently made better versions of Strindberg's photos. Those are copyright, no doubt, but that's not a big deal, as long as I can use the 1930 versions. My lead piccie is one of those, in fact if I understand it right, it's been scanned from a 1930s magazine issue. Bishonen | ノート 13:55, 27 February 2006 (UTC).

That is a special bloody pickle. However, the question is whether print or photograph is at stake. Is it process or image? If the latter, you're well in the clear. If the former, you're close at nearly 80 years. Then again, is it "image" as in "artifact" or "image" as in "film record?" I think it may well be artifact. :-( However, if you wanted to make a case to a museum to GFDL 'em, it would be an easy case: "Let us have 'em, and you'll see your tourism from English speakers go way up." Then again, museums are known for being short sighted and officious and rule-bound. I don't know which way the cracker breaks on this one. Geogre 14:04, 27 February 2006 (UTC)

What a beautiful and haunting photo that is! You might ask BDAbramson for an opinion on the copyright status (he's a US IP attorney, and his opinions might not be official, but at least he doesn't get to say IANAL). —Bunchofgrapes (talk) 20:03, 27 February 2006 (UTC)

Thanks, Bunch, I will! If I understand it, the photos, 93 of them, currently exist in three versions: 1) the unretouched rolls of film, largely used by Jan Troell in the documentary Their Frozen Dream, getting mileage out of the "aesthetic quality of worn, damaged and dated objects" according to Martinsson, 2) the retouched paper prints produced in 1930, held by Grenna Museum which claims copyright in them, and 3) recent digital versions enhanced from the original negatives made by Martinsson, who claims, and of course holds, copyright in them. (Take a look here, if you will, at the amazing panorama obviously planned by Strindberg but never discovered until Martinsson studied the material!) Bishonen | ノート 22:03, 27 February 2006 (UTC).

Looks like good news from BDAbramson, I'm glad! Of course, whatever fine images you get out of this will pale in comparison to the poetic sublimity of my latest upload... ;-) —Bunchofgrapes (talk) 00:29, 28 February 2006 (UTC)

Eww. The worst aspect is the human with the three hands. Bishonen | ノート 00:40, 28 February 2006 (UTC).

That chiton is hot! Geogre 02:59, 28 February 2006 (UTC) (2nd adolescence precedes second childhood)

Get your mind out of the gutter, Geogre, 'tis merely a mollusk. —Bunchofgrapes (talk) 03:48, 28 February 2006 (UTC)

brainhell

Being new to Wikipedia, I asked the RFA people for info on how to request that Lucky 6.9 be de-adminned. Robert McClenon stepped up, and he filed the RfC. I didn't know what an RfC was, or how it works. I now learn from you that it may not be the proper process to request the Lucky 6.9 be de-adminned. If you know how to do that, please let me know. Brainhell 16:35, 25 February 2006 (UTC)

Thanks for your comments, Bishonen. What is the proper procedure to request that Lucky 6.9 be de-adminned, and not permitted to exercise admin powers in the future? Brainhell 01:27, 26 February 2006 (UTC)

Ladies of the night!

Oh look! - sweet - my little Porsche's finally found a new friend [1] hyphenated as well - She will be pleased

Locked talk page

"Since you immediately removed them again, including mine above, I have now protected the page. You can't edit it any more."

This is NOT true, it was 24.83.197.24 who removed that stuff and vandalized my talk page.

--EllenFoster 02:42, 28 February 2006 (UTC)

Bah. What a load of codswallop. The IP blanked the page and replaced it with the words "White Power". Your next edit was according to your edit summary to "reverse racist vandalism". Except you didn't reverse it. You just blanked the "White Power", without reverting the IP's blanking of the warnings. Even without going into the question whether that IP was you (which seems overwhelmingly likely in view of the "conversation" you went on to have with it), you're responsible for the partial revert which endorsed the IP's so-convenient blanking. Blanking vandalism warnings is itself vandalism. Bishonen | ノート 03:16, 28 February 2006 (UTC).

I'm not a racist --EllenFoster 02:27, 1 March 2006 (UTC)

Fat before fast

A semla

Have a nice Fat Tuesday, Bish! Please help yourself to a digital semla! Tupsharru 04:42, 28 February 2006 (UTC)

Mmmm delish, thank you! It looks perfect, I can even see the little cardamom spots in the bun. Is it from Ofvandahls? (Oh, no, redlink! :-() Bishonen | ノート 08:57, 28 February 2006 (UTC).

I suppose there may be enough to say about Ofvandahls to warrant an article, if one finds some of the literary references. I know Ulf Peder Olrog wrote about it, but there must be others. Erik Ofvandahl (1848-1949) himself is also a figure of interest - I don't think any other person in Swedish literary history is as famous as he is for writing bad poetry (what is pekoralpoet in English?). The biographer in SBL explains the character of his poetry as deriving from "the lack of style that comes from a total lack of poetic talent and literary judgment" (etc.) Tupsharru 11:26, 28 February 2006 (UTC)

(Poetaster?) ("Ofvandahl" sounds like a lost work by Augustine: De Vandalis, or "Of the Vandals.") Geogre 13:31, 28 February 2006 (UTC)

Talking about Swedish dish

A contributor recently added the cleanup tag to Swedish cuisine (I removed it btw). Me, being the main contributor, would like to see it that it suits the taste of the critics, and would be very grateful if you could check for bad grammar and wording and anything else that is crappy. If you want to and have the time, of course...

Fred-Chess 07:26, 28 February 2006 (UTC)

PS: thanks for voting for me as admin. I haven't thanked anyone before now, because I think it will mostly just bring me more work and wouldn't have mind of I had failed :-)

You're welcome. :-) Swedish cuisine looks fine, what a nerve taggiing it for cleanup. I've started a small copyedit, I'll be back later to finish the job. Based on fish and turnips, is it? Lol. That'll do wonders for the gourmet tourist trade. Bishonen | ノート 10:17, 28 February 2006 (UTC).

(Need I remind you that Henry Carey (writer) got tagged with clean up? Graffiti "artists" call what they do "tagging." When they spray paint their "mark" on things, they've "tagged" it. Somehow, that seems apt. Geogre 11:03, 28 February 2006 (UTC)

This section provides an excellent opportunity for me to solicit input on the proposed merger tag which is currently defacing snaps. Scandinavians, speak now. —Bunchofgrapes (talk) 17:04, 28 February 2006 (UTC)

Thanks Bishonen and Geogre. Yea, I think that adding a cleanup tag to a decent article (with some flaws) is an insult. But it did need som fixing and it looks better now.

Re: Snaps, I've been meaning to write an article about the Swedish drinking culture and history for a while now. Lets see if I get it done...

Fred-Chess 10:10, 1 March 2006 (UTC)

Boxing clever

It's OK I have to go and do some proper work now, someone just came in unannounced and I had to slide a boxing book surreptitiously off my lap and into the paper basket underneath the desk, and from the look I could tell they thought I was doing something else in my lap! BoG didnt like one of the refs going to a message board, so at vast expense I have just bought Gilbert Odd's Encyclopedia of Boxing (Yes! - BoG I may well send you the bill, especially if the fact I want is not in the bloody book) Which means there will be a lot more boxing bios to come, in order to get my money's worth - the things I do for this project winge winge - I could have bought it the money I have spent on books - no wonder I'm so poor. So please edit, I am off to sudy defects in 1930s concrete, and laws on maintenance and inspecting it - real interesting stuff. Giano | talk 11:16, 28 February 2006 (UTC)

It's all right, I'm really prepping for a class, I only wanted to do a couple of examples of references to show how short and simple the footnotes can then be kept. Look at the first three notes now. In fact they're so simple that many of them can with advantage be replaced by a mention in the text. I did that for one of the first four notes, removed the note itself and just mentioned Anderson. Assuming you don't actually like to have the thing peppered with 37 footnotes or however many there were, this can help you cut them by maybe half, if you like. Never mind, let ALoan or BoG do it... (Who said that? Did I say that out loud?) Bishonen | ノート 13:25, 28 February 2006 (UTC).

• You are obviously nor aware it is now a requirement of FAC to have at least 86.3 citating footnotes per 500 words, and each fact verified in triplicate. Kindly replace my footnotes in full Giano | talk 14:29, 28 February 2006 (UTC)

"I didn't see a reference to support the fact that Antarctica means opposite of the arctic. Can you put in a footnote for this?" -- Our Favorite Martian

Föreign Squiggly Letter Pölar Éxpedition

Ta da! Tupsharru 12:35, 28 February 2006 (UTC)

Thånks Tüpshärrü, very nice! Very adequate article, now I only have to do a stub for Strindberg, (hïnt hïnt säj no more). But you have to admit it's ridiculous. Frænkel's supposed to be Swedish, from Karlstad, what's he doing spelling himself like thæt? Bischånen | tåk 13:12, 28 February 2006 (UTC).

What's that you say - there's a dot mine under the polar ice cap? With deposits of those little circles that go over the a's? That explains everything! :-) FreplySpang (talk) 15:02, 28 February 2006 (UTC)

What you say! Bishonen | ノート 15:25, 28 February 2006 (UTC).

Wi nøt trei a høliday in Sweden this yer? android79 15:39, 28 February 2006 (UTC)

Mynd yu møøse bites can be veri seriøus. (Bischånen, I solved a serious 18th c. mystery with Patriot Whigs; I kept hitting the miserable mystery of Tories writing hyper-patriotic stuff in the 1730's, when they hadn't, before. What's more, they were doing it in a way that was clearly supposed to mean something to audiences in the press and theatre. Somehow, and this is infuriating, I had missed out on the whole Patriot Whig stuff and The Craftsman. It's gap knowledge from a literary point of view -- stuff that occurs after the cool literature and before the next cool literature -- but old-style political historians knew all about it.) Geogre 15:46, 28 February 2006 (UTC)

Damn you, Geogre, interrupting a perfectly good Monty Python recitation with your talk of "writing". Large møøse on the left half side of the screen in the third scene from the end 15:51, 28 February 2006 (UTC)

But it wæs in pärentheses! Ralph the Wonder Llama

They didn't dig a hole to bury Strindberg. The SBL bio says that the Norwegians in August 1930 found "Andrées stora dagbok samt hans och Strindbergs lik, det senare begravt av hans kamrater i en bergskreva." Most of the SBL article is about the expedition rather than Frænkel himself; he hadn't done much else in his life. Actually, it mentions that he painted ("Han var även landskapsmålare."), but gives no details. You can probably correct the bio once you are finished with the main article. Tupsharru 12:17, 2 March 2006 (UTC)

Yeah, or even when I'm actually started with the main article — I'm finally off to KB to look at some books, right now, at this moment! The internet resources on this are pretty amateurish, with the exception of the Martinsson article, so I'm tearing out my hair with frustration at having nothing else. Bishonen | ノート 12:36, 2 March 2006 (UTC).

You can check the online Times Digital Archive for some contemporary press reports (and occasional speculations in the following years, and new reports when they were eventually found). Tupsharru 12:49, 2 March 2006 (UTC)

But is that better than this? Bishonen | ノート 13:02, 2 March 2006 (UTC).

Maybe not, I can't really tell. Tupsharru 13:07, 2 March 2006 (UTC)

Out-of-control chat room report

Hey Bishonen,

Did you See the thing in the Signpost? Your talk page is the sixth most edited talk page on enwiki. (I gather the count doesn't include edits by the page owner.) I'm sure you're thrilled, thrilled, thrilled! I'm 81st. I need to start giving away door prizes. —Bunchofgrapes (talk) 02:14, 1 March 2006 (UTC)

I was sorely tempted to change the story to refer to the top 6 rather than the top 5 but I ʀêʂīστëð :) -- ALoan (Talk) 03:34, 1 March 2006 (UTC)

I nōte thæt Bǐšöňën's page is the önly one edited by friends rather than complaïners. Geogre 10:57, 1 March 2006 (UTC)

Thank you

For the vandalism revert [5]. I was once told that you would be a good person to ask for an opinion on article quality. The article Glacier retreat needs a fresh set of eyes to look it over. It is stalled in WP:FAC and it would be nice if someone like yourself might have a lookie at it. I am not asking you to vote (unless it is to object) as I do not like solicitation of votes on anything. In fact, even if you do support, I would ask you to not do so by voting...I am probably going to withdraw it by the weekend and maybe renominate it later on. Just thought if you have a few minutes and want to help, your opinion would be nice. Thanks again!--MONGO 11:44, 2 March 2006 (UTC)

I am but a layman myself and a majority of the technical data is way over my head...all I can do parrot what I read in books and journals...but hey, truly appreciate the effort...it's altogether a rather scary story if nothing else.--MONGO 21:36, 2 March 2006 (UTC)

Thank you!

Thanks so much for blanking and protecting my page. I will be forever indebted to you. I love you! Thank you!!!

--EllenFoster 01:05, 3 March 2006 (UTC)

You're welcome! That was quite tricky, though, with you editing it every few seconds. I'm glad it got done at last. Bishonen | ノート 01:08, 3 March 2006 (UTC).

DYK

Did you know....

• that William Congreve is a disambiguation page, that there are three of them?
• that user:Geogre has set up a new section of his user page devoted to "The Sayings of Geogre the Wise?"
• that Wikipedia's millionth article was a railway stop in India and that it was written long before the million mark and just got recreated or wikified or something in time for a million?
• that user:Geogre rarely looks at the talk pages to FAC, FARC, AfD, CSD, or the various administrator boards and that this makes him happier and more popular than would otherwise be the case? :-)

Geogre 03:13, 3 March 2006 (UTC)

Lol. I did know the first two. (Did you know that Congreve is also a disambiguation page, one I've tried to get rid of, and that one of them is a horse?) I will remember to draw User:Geogre's attention to any item on those discussion pages that needs a geogre in full flight. I trust he takes requests? Popup-assisted Bishonen | ノート 08:00, 3 March 2006 (UTC).

• that user:Geogre does appreciate any time his attention is brought to a crucial debate that his sloth would otherwise miss?
• that it is easier to de-list an FA than to have an actionable objection to an FAC?

Geogre 10:53, 3 March 2006 (UTC) (a horse? of course, of course)

Re: EllenFoster

Um, since you've apparently interacted with EllenFoster previously, I thought I should draw your attention to [6] and [7]. --Saforrest 03:48, 3 March 2006 (UTC)

Mmm, sure, thanks. Well, EllenFoster is a sock, as well as being in a bit of a state. Did you see this one (the timestamps)? There's not a lot of point, but I'll block for a week or so for hate speech and PAs. Bishonen | ノート 07:50, 3 March 2006 (UTC).

FARCs

Having never nominated FARCs before (always too busy writig them) can you have a look as I've got into a mess with Sicilian Baroque moved the old nom to an archive, followed instructions implicitly, but it still won't show up as an FARC linking to the new nomination page. Do you know how to do it? Giano | talk 10:18, 3 March 2006 (UTC)

Giano, those articles are going to fail to get de-listed, you know? Better luck de-listing others. Geogre 10:55, 3 March 2006 (UTC)

The nom looks all right now, anyway. Did the FARC talkpage accidentally get involved? Never mind, it looks fine. (In its stupid way.) Bishonen | ノート 11:25, 3 March 2006 (UTC).

Geogre, why don't you sleep any, all of a sudden? Bishonen | ノート 11:29, 3 March 2006 (UTC).

Last night was a buzzy brain night. I blame it on mood altering drugs. Geogre 14:11, 3 March 2006 (UTC)

• Because the exitement is all too much for him! ..and don't you be too sure about the de-listing Geogre - just immagine I can take them all off my watchlist - not having to worry every tiny edit is someone adding their Granny's experience outside the Palace on VE night with a drunken sailor - never having to worry about explaining why Matthew Brettingham seems to only have had one child - was his wife frigid or did he have an accident on his bycycle - Miss Madeline is pronbably researching his poor sex life as we speak - and I don't have to worry any more about her findings. Tony can translate them all into "compelling prose" what is complelling prose? - I've often wondered - and what is it supposed to compell one to do? - vommit probably. Have a nice day all! Giano | talk 11:50, 3 March 2006 (UTC)

Ok, I'm going to say this, and hopefully I can say it only once. I'm conflict averse, so I don't intend to put it on any FAC's.

Begin utterance: The changes that Tony1 wants, in general, would make our articles far less compelling. In general, he asks articles to conform to a style sheet used in business in the US. These changes reduce sentence variation, alter the rhythm of the sentences, and reduce complexity. The goal of business writing is to achieve a fifth grade reading level, and the style sheet he is using is pernicious in that it would have all vocabulary, verb variation, and periodic structures squashed down to a predictable, and therefore boring level. Furthermore, his repeated calls for a "copy editor" are references to a particular economic position created by the capitalist classes to contain their superfluous intellectuals. The intellectual is a danger. Too many of them are very dangerous. Capitalism creates jobs that feign exchanging bread for intelligence in order to contain, to channel, and to control intellectualism. "Copy editors" who embrace their calling as a noble pursuit are fully integrated into the capitalist scheme, wholly owned, colonized, and impregnated by the values of merchandize and commodity. Were they thoughtful, they'd realize that their "intellectual" activity is mainly to reduce human variation. No single style sheet can be applied to a large document. This should be self-evident. The narrower and more prescriptive the style sheet, the less of a document it can comprehend satisfactorily, and the style sheets Tony1 wishes to apply are narrow even by the standards of the primmest school marm. It is not the man that I condemn, but the practice. All of this said, there is yet a final comment, however, on the practice that I have to make: SOFIXIT. It is easier to make stylistic changes than to ennumerate them in an objection, and the motivation one must have in expending all that energy on an objection cannot be salutory. End utterance.

Sorry, Bishonen, for putting this here, but having seen Tony1's objections to Noah's Ark on FAC, I reached a tipping point. The sanctimony involved just makes it worse. Geogre 14:09, 3 March 2006 (UTC)

? A double message indeed, to bother to formulate a Geogre Full Flight and then hide it on my talkpage. (Even if it is the sixth most edited usertalk page on Wikipedia.) I can't say I understand you. Bishonen | ノート 14:36, 3 March 2006 (UTC).

Well, sorry about that. Giano was complaining about the death by a thousand cuts being administered by some people with small knives (and no point), I think, and he mentioned the Tony1 editing standards. I don't know anything about the Mistress Magdaline of the Crumpets or whoever that is, but I tried to read FAC to get over doing a New Pages patrol, and obviously high quality articles were getting "object" from Tony1 over the most boring and counter-productive things that it was ticking me off. In fact, all of his "objections" seemed to be not on stylistic grounds but on style sheet grounds, and yet they were there as "not compelling prose." I just thought the paradox of claiming to want prose to compel when your changes reduce interest was too aggravating not to say something about. Not wanting another fifty interchanges that go nowhere and provoke petulance, I put it here, among friends. Geogre 14:59, 3 March 2006 (UTC)

WTGROMT. Good thing I only ever engage in "light" copyediting... -- ALoan (Talk) 14:49, 3 March 2006 (UTC)

Editing good. Style sheet constipation bad. Geogre 14:59, 3 March 2006 (UTC)

Looking for Advice

The following images: Image:Frozengodzilla.jpg, Image:Xillians.jpg, Image:Stallone.jpg, Image:Barthez.jpg, Image:PrestonLG.jpg, Image:Christian bale.jpg, Image:KimDaejung.jpg, Image:Godzilla running.jpg, Image:Mothravsgigan.jpg, and Image:Hford33.jpg have no source info. I have tagged them by the uploader, See Hoy Kim, keeps reverting it to the version without the tags and I think he even placed false locks on the page to make it look like they can't be edited without permission. Any suggestions? AriGold 16:09, 3 March 2006 (UTC)

I've also had trouble with See Hoy Kim's image uploads. I'll take a look. android79 16:11, 3 March 2006 (UTC)

Thanks. AriGold 16:16, 3 March 2006 (UTC)

Have a buck back Bish

Having taken the buck, been over to look at Glacier retreat and commented on its FAC I thought I might see if you might be interested in a nomination I've been commenting on in which to my great surprise no-one at all has agreed with my comments. Can you tell me whether or not I'm just being a curmudgeon on Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Chetwynd, British Columbia, if you have time? Takk! Worldtraveller 00:42, 4 March 2006 (UTC)

ZOMFG! Arghhh, good grief! I definitely will comment on WP:FAC, but I'm so slow — let me just call in the cabalry in the meantime! Geogre, help, mayday! It's curmudgeon time! Bishonen | ノート 11:53, 4 March 2006 (UTC).

Ok, just let me put my poo-colored glasses on (to counter the rose-colored glasses nationals would wear) and see what I can see. Geogre 13:30, 4 March 2006 (UTC)

Cool. I actually got in there first, for once, but you're better at it. You know how it is: I wrote a long screed because I didn't have time to write briefly. ;-) I was quite shocked by some things, and especially by the way WT's helpful comments were going for naught. Bishonen | ノート 13:39, 4 March 2006 (UTC).

Well, before anyone is disappointed, I saw one thing over and over again, and it needed to be said. Unlike the two of you, I didn't think the writing was that bad (no doubt all the voters have been editing out the stinkers), but it's ridiculous to have a verbose encyclopedia article. The length of the article should be related to the needs of the subject. I felt that like overrode anything else. (Perhaps this is part of some campaign I'm on about people who try to write five screen FA's on TV show contestants who got "voted off the island" on episode 2.) Geogre 13:54, 4 March 2006 (UTC)

• Ok, I see what is going on. I was annoyed that the nomination has gone on this long, I do not consider the FAC process to be fun. I was also annoyed to find oppose votes only hours after returning my library book (inter-library loans - to Chetwynd - take weeks to come through). Worldtraveller, most of your comments have not been actioned upon, not because they are invalid, but because they would require dramatic changes to the way the article is written and formatted. The version you would like to see is not the version that I nominated at FAC and not the version that others had already voted upon. Should this FAC fail, I will make those dramatic changes and re-nominate the new version (I do want to get it right). However, I do not agree with the opinion that there is too much detail. A town is a town, no matter if it has 1000 or 4,000,000 people. It does not suddenly mean they do not vote in elections or they do not have a infrastructure, culture or history. Please see Wikipedia:WikiProject Cities#Structure (format for city template) for what sections should be there - you may find that I have been conservative with what I have included and how I formatted the sections. Should this nomination fail based on the length, I will switch to a summary style with links to sub-pages. This will of course create additional content on the insignificant town but this is how Wikipedia has decided to deal with articles that are considered too long. The moderate length (36 kb) of the article was a compromise, do not create sub-pages in exchange for a longer centralized article. Too many footnotes?? Have I been too transparent with the sources I have used? Try fact checking an article (seriously - try any one in the FAC line-up, except Glacier retreat which I have already done), perhaps you will gain a new perspective of footnoting. And thank you for pointing out I have a bad writing style. Others have helped out with some copy-edits, I hope you will, too. --maclean25 05:59, 5 March 2006 (UTC)

peace?

Hi Bishonen Giano suggested that I make peace with you. I almost always find that making peace is beneficial to all, so I have no problem doing that. As I've admitted on the FARC, I goofed, and yes, you did have a point.

I wonder whether you and I can forget about the harsh words that have gone between us on a few occasions recently. I'd be pleased if you accepted my apology.

Tony 13:37, 4 March 2006 (UTC)

Sounds fine; I don't usually look at who nominates FACs, so I'll have to be sure to check. If I do anything that upsets you, please raise it on my page. Tony 15:11, 4 March 2006 (UTC)

This is probably highly distasteful of me, but I'm inexorably reminded, Bishonen, that what I said to you about the FARC earlier was a product of ignorance. Read James J. Brittain's The FARC-EP in Colombia: A Revolutionary Exception in an Age of Imperialist Expansion. El_C 13:49, 4 March 2006 (UTC)