Talk:Garth Paltridge

Deletion

This is the author of a book due for worldwide publication in a few weeks. If you delete it now the page will have to be recreated when the hits in gnews start piling up, and they will. ► RATEL ◄ 07:58, 29 July 2009 (UTC)

It should not be difficult to recreate. I suggest you put a copy in a User/sandbox. Please note the article original contains copyrighted text. My best to you. ttonyb1 (talk) 08:05, 29 July 2009 (UTC)

repetition of unfounded insinuation not in Wikipedia style

I would like to comment on the source for article's statement that "Paltridge accepted money from the oil industry (also known as Big Oil) via the industry-funded nonprofit the Natural Resources Stewardship Project [7]". The citation [7] refers to the title "84 of Imhofe's Global Warming Deniers Have Taken Industry Money". This latter is the headline of an article in The Daily Green. This latter article lists Paltridge as a signer of an open letter to the U.N. that was said to be connected with the Natural Resources Stewardship Project. This connection is the only link that could be thought to be the source of the Wikipedia article's statement that Paltridge accepted money from the oil industry, but it is clear that such a sourcing is not valid, because it shows no evidence that Paltridge accepted money from anyone. The statement that Paltridge accepted money from the oil industry is no more than an unfounded insinuation created by the headline in The Daily Green; consequently it should be removed from the Wikipedia article on Paltridge.Chjoaygame (talk) 06:47, 18 September 2009 (UTC)

Let's look at this. He's a member of the NRSP, which is industry-funded and funds sympathetic scientists, right? Do you accept that? ► RATEL ◄ 06:54, 18 September 2009 (UTC)

I have emailed Paltridge and he writes that he has no knowledge of the NRSP. From what is common knowledge, though perhaps the NRSP is said to have solicited signatures for the letter to the U.N., we have no reason to suppose that signers of the letter were members of the NRSP. We must say that as far as we know, Paltridge is not a member of the NRSP.Chjoaygame (talk) 09:01, 18 September 2009 (UTC)

Well, no, he was listed as an allied expert at their website recently; I saw the page myself. It is now gone, strangely. One is reminded of cockroaches running from the light. I'd support a change of wording to "Paltridge was listed as an "allied expert" by the industry-funded nonprofit, the Natural Resources Stewardship Project." (BTW, your emails from Paltridge carry no weight here, and you are not supposed to edit the page if you know him in any way due to WP:COI). ► RATEL ◄ 09:56, 18 September 2009 (UTC)

It is a unilateral thing that the NRSP is claiming that Paltridge is an allied expert, perhaps because he is said to have signed the letter for which they solicited signatures. But membership must be voluntary and they could not make him a member without his agreement. It seems from his email to me that there is no such agreement, nor even a request for agreement. The signing of the open letter to the U.N. would not make him a member. One can see why the NRSP might want to claim that Paltridge is an allied expert, because Paltridge is a good scientist, but that does not make him a member of the NRSP in any natural sense of the words, and the NRSP is not claiming that he is a member as you claim. Only Paltridge can decide whether he consents to being a member or not. What is the acceptable and effective way that you, or anyone else, as an editor of Wikipedia, can verify from Paltridge whether he consents to being a member as you claim? You write "One is reminded of cockroaches running from the light." Writing that, you are likening Paltridge to a cockroach. Do you have verifiable reasons for that? If so, please list them here.Chjoaygame (talk) 10:30, 18 September 2009 (UTC)

I repeat, your emails mean nothing here. Do not raise them again. See WP:OR. ► RATEL ◄ 02:15, 19 September 2009 (UTC)

You have not replied to my question about whether you have verifiable reasons for your likening of Paltridge to a cockroach. You have responded by inserting a repetition of a claim by an industry-funded nonprofit source that Paltridge is "allied" to that source; an alliance is voluntary and requires consent on both sides; neither you nor they have evidence that Paltridge consented to such an 'alliance'; your reason for your claim is that "he was listed as an allied expert at their website recently; I saw the page myself. It is now gone, strangely."; that means that your insertion rests on your own unverifiable internet 'research'. As far as is verifiable, for all we know, the reason why the list is now gone is that the authors discovered it was false. Your insertion of that repetition of that claim is unverifiable; therefore your inserted repetition of the claim should be deleted. I repeat my question: do you have verifiable reasons for your likening of Paltridge to a cockroach? If so, please list them here.Chjoaygame (talk) 04:31, 19 September 2009 (UTC)

Ratel, you have labelled your new editorial insertion a compromise, but in reality it is no compromise, but instead is a doubling of your offence of making unverifiable claims, because it adds an unverifiable claim about an alliance while still continuing to cite the unfounded insinuation by The Daily Green. And still you have not replied to my question about whether you have verifiable reasons for your likening of Paltridge to a cockroach. If you have such reasons, please list them here.Chjoaygame (talk) 06:48, 19 September 2009 (UTC)

I was referring to the organisation when I said cockroach, obviously. I saw the allied expert page when I followed the claim source from another site, sourcewatch, so it's not OR and you clearly do not understand what OR means.► RATEL ◄ 12:21, 19 September 2009 (UTC)

Ratel, it was not obvious that you were referring to only the organization when you wrote about cockroaches: the article is about Paltridge. Your new insertion into the Wikipedia article alleges that Paltridge is allied with an organization that, in your discussion note, you liken to a cockroach. Your only 'verification' of this allegation is your claim that Paltridge "was listed as an allied expert at their website recently; I saw the page myself. It is now gone, strangely."; an alliance is two-way; you have no verification that Paltridge, on his side, consented to any such 'alliance'; you offer no reason why the 'strange' removal might not have been because its authors discovered it was false. Your Wikipedia article reference, instead of citing your claim "I saw the page myself" which is the actual source of your unverifiable allegation, cites inaccurately a repetition the hearsay of The Daily Green which is merely unfounded insinuation. Yes, I was politely and perhaps gratuitously dignifying your internet adventures as 'research', in single quote marks.

At the real foundation of this, there is a verifiable basis for a statement in the Wikipedia article as follows: 'The National Post has Paltridge listed (http://www.nationalpost.com/news/story.html?id=164004) as one of some 100 signers of an open letter to the U.N. (http://www.nationalpost.com/news/story.html?id=164002) that was headed "Re: UN climate conference taking the World in entirely the wrong direction".' When one checks SourceWatch, one notes that these National Post articles are the real foundation of your references to the NRSP, but they are not a basis to link Paltridge with the NRSP, nor are they a reason to recite the hearsay unfounded insinuation by The Daily Green. How would you feel about simply going with the verifiable basis in the National Post?Chjoaygame (talk) 15:41, 19 September 2009 (UTC)

The web archive proves Paltridge was listed by the NRSP. I'm inclined to leave the page as is. ► RATEL ◄ 15:57, 19 September 2009 (UTC)

You do not have the necessary verification that Paltridge consented to being included in the now-removed list as an 'ally' by the NRSP, nor an explanation of why they "strangely" removed the list, which might have been because they discovered it was inaccurate, likely for reasons such as non-consent by Paltridge. The page reference of your new insertion in the article does not cite the archive source you name here: (http://web.archive.org/web/20071202095654/www.nrsp.com/people.html); instead the page reference irrelevantly cites a hearsay repetition of an insinuation by The Daily Green. This insinuation is unfounded, and in the article, your new insertion citing it purports to link Paltridge with an organization that you liken here to a cockroach. You continue to intend to link Paltridge with a cockroach, using an irrelevant citation to do so, relying on a now-removed and likely inaccurate list. You are making an unverified personal attack on Paltridge. Why?Chjoaygame (talk) 17:08, 19 September 2009 (UTC)

My feeling about the organisation have nothing to do with the page and I suggest you cease discussing them. the fact is that he was listed on their website for a long time, and that was reported elsewhere. So we have primary and secondary evidence of the fact. Now the whole NRSP website has gone, not just the page that lists Palt., so concluding that the site is down bec. of Palt is absurd. The org. is now defunct, by the looks of it. However, it was run by well known individuals like Timothy Ball and Tom Harris who would hardly be expected to make up lists of allied experts. They are legally liable if they do that. Palt. should come out in public to dissociate himself, and he never did. Paltridge was also listed on this page. ► RATEL ◄ 01:46, 20 September 2009 (UTC)

The reference "Senator James Inhofe (2008). "84 of Inhofe's Global Warming Deniers Have Taken Industry Money". The Daily Green. Retrieved 2009-07-31. {{cite web}}: Unknown parameter |month= ignored (help)" is an unfounded insinuation that Paltridge has accepted money from big oil and should be removed.Chjoaygame (talk) 21:16, 20 September 2009 (UTC)

Changed the link in the ref to link to a page at thedailygreen that lists Paltridge without saying he was paid. ► RATEL ◄ 00:03, 21 September 2009 (UTC)

The Wikipedia article on the NRSP has no mention of Big Oil funding, though it examines evidence about funding. The SourceWatch article on the NRSP has no mention of Big Oil funding, though it examines evidence about funding. The Daily Green article that links Paltridge to the NRSP has, as its only source for the funding story in relation to Paltridge, the SourceWatch article on the NRSP. In the Wikipedia article on Paltridge, the newly inserted clause "which has funding links to Big Oil" meaning that the Natural Resources Stewardship Project has funding links to Big Oil, therefore has no Wikipedia acceptable verification and no evidential support. The clause "which has funding links to Big Oil" and its reference to The Daily Green should be removed.Chjoaygame (talk) 08:20, 21 September 2009 (UTC)

DrProbability, thank you for your valuable guidance to the Wikipedia article on the Law of Maximum Entropy Production.Chjoaygame (talk) 03:15, 22 September 2009 (UTC)

In the Wikipedia article on Garth Paltridge, the reference currently numbered 7 (http://www.thedailygreen.com/environmental-news/latest/inhofe-global-warming-deniers-industry-money-46011008?link=rel&dom=yah_green&src=syn&con=art&mag=tdg |title=84 of Inhofe's Global Warming Deniers Have Taken Industry Money |accessdate=2009-07-31 |publisher=The Daily Green |author=Senator James Inhofe |year=2008 |month=October) to The Daily Green, lacking Wikipedia acceptable verification, unnecessarily introduces concerns about funding by Big Oil that are not relevant to the Garth Paltridge article. It should be removed.Chjoaygame (talk) 03:30, 22 September 2009 (UTC)

If you have evidence that thedailygreen.com is an unreliable source, you should take it and get opinions at the RS noticeboard. ► RATEL ◄ 03:51, 22 September 2009 (UTC)

It is not a matter for me at this point to assess the reliability of The Daily Green, but rather I am specifically concerned with how it is being used in this reference. In this reference, The Daily Green is being used to insinuate that Paltridge is unreliable, and this is not what the reference is about; the reference is about whether Paltridge was listed by the NRSP, and the evidence that you have presented from the web archive is the verification of that; the reference to The Daily Green does not add anything to that that is relevant to the present point; the reference to The Daily Planet is being used here to gratuitously introduce an unfounded insinuation. It should be removed.Chjoaygame (talk) 05:58, 22 September 2009 (UTC)

Actually, we need more than archived pages of the nrsp site to prove the link between GP and the org, and this is an independent source. It does say that GP is linked to the NRSP, which is correct, and also says that the NRSP was industry funded, which may or may not be correct (the founders will not say). It does not say that the NRSP funded GP in the sourced page given. I see no BLP problems. If you can find another RS that links GP and the NRSP, we can replace this source. ► RATEL ◄ 06:17, 22 September 2009 (UTC)

I have raised discussion of the Daily Green at RS/N. Alex Harvey (talk) 05:10, 5 October 2009 (UTC)

reference to Swenson's Law of maximum entropy production

From this article about Paltridge, I have removed the reference to the Wikipedia article about Swenson's Law of maximum entropy production because the latter has no reference to Paltridge's work.Chjoaygame (talk) 04:39, 28 September 2009 (UTC)

Paltridge: what is he known for?

Obviously, Paltridge was a well known climate scientist before he recently "came out" and declared himself an AGW skeptic. In the 1970s he published a number of papers arguing that the earth atmosphere is in a state of "minimum entropy exchange". There are some google hits on this here. Recent observations suggest that he is right, or on the right track, and that the atmospheres of other planets, e.g. Titan, Venus, are in similar states. Thus, Paltridge has contributed importantly to mankind's knowledge of the atmosphere. So it seems to me that Ratel is getting confused between what he knows Paltridge for ("outspoken views on AGW") and what others know him for. I have changed this back. Alex Harvey (talk) 11:40, 4 October 2009 (UTC)

Let's see, what is more notable: 2 papers published in the 1970s that virtually disappeared without trace or Paltridge's well known skepticism about AGW that includes a book, Youtube videos, and a mulitude of web hits? Beep, this is a no-brainer. ► RATEL ◄ 15:12, 4 October 2009 (UTC)

Ratel, you need to stop for a little while and do just a little bit of reading about the subject. To get you started, here is a well known review paper on the history of the maximum entropy hypothesis.

Ozawa, H., A. Ohmura, R. D. Lorenz, and T. Pujol 2003: The second law of thermodynamics and the global climate system: A review of the maximum entropy production principle, Rev. Geophys., 41(4), 1018, doi:10.1029/2002RG000113, 2003.

You'll see that the whole thing started with Paltridge's theory, and that he's published numerous papers (have you considered looking at google scholar?). For instance the review paper cites five Paltridge papers:

• Paltridge, G. W., Global dynamics and climate––A system of minimum entropy exchange, Q. J. R. Meteorol. Soc., 101, 475–484, 1975.
• Paltridge, G. W., The steady-state format of global climate, Q. J. R. Meteorol. Soc., 104, 927–945, 1978.
• Paltridge, G. W., Climate and thermodynamic systems of maximum dissipation, Nature, 279, 630–631, 1979.
• Paltridge, G. W., Thermodynamic dissipation and the global climate system, Q. J. R. Meteorol. Soc., 107, 531–547, 1981.
• Paltridge, G. W., A physical basis for a maximum of thermodynamic dissipation of the climate system, Q. J. R. Meteorol. Soc., 127, 305–313, 2001.

Paltridge's hypothesis set off an entire programme of research -- an entire branch of climate science -- into which many papers are published every year. His original paper is cited 105 times on google scholar.

Please do the right thing and restore my edits. Alex Harvey (talk) 03:05, 5 October 2009 (UTC)

Help me out here. If your claim carries any weight, then why is he not mentioned anywhere on Principle of maximum entropy or Law of maximum entropy production or indeed here http://www.lawofmaximumentropyproduction.com/ etc etc? ► RATEL ◄ 04:29, 5 October 2009 (UTC)

Because you are looking at different theories that just happen to have a similar sounding names. The Swenson article is about application of a different principle of maximum entropy (note it says nothing about any application to the climate system). There are many principles of maximum/minimum entropy in different areas, maybe fifty or more.

Here is a presentation by a Steven Mobbs of NCAR, Is the Climate System at a Maximum of the Entropy Production?. See that the theory originated with Paltridge in 1975, 1979. Alex Harvey (talk) 04:57, 5 October 2009 (UTC)

Even if he is known in academic circles for being part of this theory, the question still remains: what is he best known for? While a small handful of scientists may know of him for this reason, thousands know about him for his many forays into the public debate on climate change, where he's appeared on radio and television, newspaper interviews, newspaper articles authored by himself, and now a book. It is a matter of judgement as to what he is best known for. From my POV, since I am a logical fellow, I choose his stance on AGW as his most notable feature. If you disagree, go to RfC. ► RATEL ◄ 05:20, 5 October 2009 (UTC)

We should not need dispute resolution for something like this. Have a look at how the "known for" field is used in other cases: James Hansen, Kevin E. Trenberth, John Christy, Richard Lindzen, Edward Norton Lorenz, i.e. always to indicate their contributions to knowledge, not their stance on global warming, and not what they're known for to the lay person in the popular press or the Daily Green. Then look at the documentation here: Template:Infobox_Scientist and see that it says known_for is to be used to indicate "Key topics/areas of study in which the scientist notable." Alex Harvey (talk) 06:26, 5 October 2009 (UTC)

I'd be happy with a compromise where both items are noted in the known for slot. How about it? ► RATEL ◄ 08:37, 5 October 2009 (UTC)

Well I cannot see any precedent or justification for referring to his climate change skepticism in the infobox but in the interests of getting on with things I could live with it (unless another editor also objects). However, "outspoken views" includes an editorial judgement and is definitely contrary to policy (see Avoid editorial opinion). It begs the question, "how outspoken is 'outspoken' here?" In my opinion, "outspoken" is what Joe Romm is, with his climate progress blog that is updated daily. Paltridge is in contrast rather quiet. So if you changed it to "known for: maximum entropy production (MEP) hypothesis, climate change skepticism" I'll accept the compromise.

It's not accurate, though. His book, Climate Caper, is about the corruption of science, not climate change skepticism. Paltridge's view is that he really doesn't pretend to know what the future holds for climate change, but that he's doubtful climate sensitivity is really anything much more than 2xCO2=1 C or so, and that even if it was 3 C he's not convinced that would be a big problem. You'll note in the pages below, that where Paltridge has taken a definite point of view is on the issue of sea level rise. There, I think, he would definitely say, "No, Antarctica is NOT going to melt, however much the earth warms, and sea levels are NOT going to rise dangerously." Indeed, it would probably be much better to refer to his work on Antarctica in the "known for" box. Alex Harvey (talk) 12:06, 5 October 2009 (UTC)

some reliable sources for Paltridge

In order to help balance this article away from Climate Caper, Paltridge's post-retirement work on the state of science in Australia, and onto his actual work during his career as a scientist I have found some reliable sources:

• Too many science PhDs?, Radio National - Counterpoint, 2005.
• Adaptation the key to surviving climate change, scientists say, ABC news online, 2005.
• Antarctic Ice Sheet, ABC Earthbeat, 2000.
• Doomsday roadshow, Lateline, 2001.
• Limited sea rises expected, BBC, 2000.
• Complex systems: Order out of chaos, Nature online, 2005.
• The torpedo is not for turning, New Scientist, 1993.
• A cold, hard look at a hot topic, Sydney Morning Herald, 2005.
• Adaptation the key to surviving climate change, scientists say, ABC news online, 2005.
• Scientists move to lessen global warming, ABC news online, 2001.
• Greenhouse sea levels exaggerated, ABC news in science, 2000.
• A short primer on climate change and the greenhouse issue, online opinion editor, 2001 -- good article for obtaining Professor Paltridge's actual view on climate change.
• Unlike Kyoto, this climate deal suits us fine, online opinion editor, 2005 (Paltridge mentioned for his view on uncertainty of climate change.)

I suggest you start a new section that covers this data. ► RATEL ◄ 12:56, 5 October 2009 (UTC)

issue with lead

The lead currently includes a sentence: "Paltridge believes that athropogenic global warming is real, but not significant.[1]" This is not however an accurate summary of the source, which reads in full:

In one limited sense the members of the "do something about global warming" lobby are correct. If humans insist on giving the atmosphere an extra dose of carbon dioxide, then indeed one can expect Earth’s surface temperature to rise. To be strictly accurate, we should say that its temperature will be higher than it would have been otherwise. Either way, it doesn’t take a lot of physical knowledge and insight to accept the statement. It is rather the equivalent of saying that if one hits something with a bat then that something will respond. So it is true, as the lobby delights in telling us at every opportunity, that there is no longer much argument among scientists about the existence of the greenhouse global warming phenomenon. There never was.

The consensus goes no further down the chain of political correctness than this. It is rather naughty of the greenhouse lobby either to say outright, or to imply by judicious omission, that it does.

It has not been solidly established, and it is certainly not accepted by the majority of scientists as proven fact, that global warming from increased atmospheric carbon dioxide will be large enough to be seriously noticeable - let alone large enough to be disastrous. Imagine the response of a well-bedded concrete post when belted by a relatively small bat. In a situation where the post has been around a long time and has in the past survived the beatings of lots of much bigger bats, the chances are that it won’t move much. (emphasis added)

I suggest we move this to the "climate change skepticism" section, and then accurately summarise the source. Alex Harvey (talk) 12:32, 5 October 2009 (UTC)

How would you précis that bolded text other than the way I have? ► RATEL ◄ 12:57, 5 October 2009 (UTC)

The trouble with the present wording is that it has simplified the original such that the paraphrase can be interpreted in ways that the original can't. For instance, one could interpret the paraphrase as meaning "Paltridge believes that the earth is probably going to warm 3-5 C by 2100 but he doesn't think that's a big deal." Clearly, this interpretation is inconsistent with the source, but not with the paraphrase. It's also ambiguous: what exactly is meant by "global warming" here -- warming that occurred 1976-1998? Warming that will occur by 2100? Something like the following would be okay: "Whilst it is Paltridge's view that there is a consensus amongst scientists that increases in atmospheric carbon dioxide must lead to some small amount of warming, he argues that there is no agreement on how much warming will occur. His view is that the warming would probably be barely noticeable."

The present wording "will probably be barely noticeable" focuses on the feeling not the scientific base for it. A more accurate precis, if one is set on precis to this extent, would focus on the science, and might read: "will probably be too small to be a threat".Chjoaygame (talk) 21:21, 5 October 2009 (UTC)

words to avoid

The article makes uses of a number of biasing words, e.g. Paltridge "claims" X is used seven times in the article. This contradicts the editing policy, see WP:CLAIM and WP:Words to avoid. Guidelines for rewriting this are given therein:

While the word "claim" may be used appropriately, it can also be misused to cast doubt on an assertion. Editors should avoid this improper usage and instead choose a neutral alternative.

• Dubious: "Politician Jones has come under fire for his use of racial slurs in a prior career. Jones issued a statement in which he claims that he is not a racist." [A fact followed by a "claim" leaves readers inclined to believe the fact and disbelieve the claim.]
• Instead: "Jones said in a statement, 'I am not and have never been a racist.'"

Likewise the article makes use of a lot of scare quotes and this should be changed as well.

Any objections? Alex Harvey (talk) 00:31, 6 October 2009 (UTC)

Go ahead and make changes on those issues, but remember that a lot of quotes are there to indicate that these are his exact words. Don't lose that. ► RATEL ◄ 05:21, 6 October 2009 (UTC)

sourcewatch.org RS?

I doubt there's any way that sourcewatch can be considered an RS. It's more or less the same as Wikipedia -- i.e. volunteers write in and update it. Thus we would have to drop this stuff about ExxonMobil from the footnote simply because there's no reliable sources giving. Even if it didn't fail WP:WEIGHT, it still can't be included. Alex Harvey (talk) 06:14, 6 October 2009 (UTC)

Removed SW, even though it was used as a src for the conference sponsors and not GP. The sponsorship by Exxon is not in doubt, see new src. ► RATEL ◄ 07:32, 6 October 2009 (UTC)

Okay, but the problem is now, none of your sources are actually trying to insinuate that Paltridge himself has any relationship with Exxon. Whilst one of the sources has suggested that others insinuate that since Exxon donated money to the APEC Study Centre that organisation itself is somehow fouled, none of the sources have said anything about Paltridge. Thus this is WP:SYN. It needs to be removed. You can't use Wikipedia to make insinuations against the good character of living people. Alex Harvey (talk) 12:59, 6 October 2009 (UTC)

Our page does not make the insinuation either. We merely mention that he made a major public speech at an industry-funded event. This is not secret knowledge and not SYN. You're being a little over-sensitive and paranoid. ► RATEL ◄ 01:03, 7 October 2009 (UTC)

conspiracy theory?

It is useful to distinguish between the notions of a conspiracy and of a movement and of a group delusion and of a vulgar error. The distinction is that conspiracy is defined to be secret and perhaps more or less criminal; a movement is more or less cooperative but in general not secret; a group delusion is a mistaken belief held by a more or less mutually communicating group of individuals; a vulgar error is an error that is widely followed. The belief that man-made CO2 emissions cause dangerous global warming is widespread, more or less cooperative, and not secret; its validity is debated. Desire for world government is widespread, more or less cooperative, and not secret; its admirability is a matter of taste. Socialism (desire for wealth transfer) is widespread, more or less cooperative, and not secret; its admirability is a complicated question and a matter of taste. Manipulation of research funding sources is widespread, more or less cooperative, and perhaps more or less secret and perhaps more or less criminal; its admirability is a matter of taste. Concern about the possibility of man-made CO2 emissions causing dangerous global warming is a political reality; it is rare that political reality is entirely free of conspiracy, but the usual rule applies here: when wanting to decide between conspiracy and incompetence, remember that incompetence is very widespread, and few can keep a secret.Chjoaygame (talk) 21:06, 6 October 2009 (UTC)

Your writing style and edit history (which includes this page and pages on MEP, Paltridge's pet subject) makes me suspect you may be the subject of the page. If so, please review WP:COI and consider not editing here. If you are not Paltridge, feel free to say so. ► RATEL ◄ 01:05, 7 October 2009 (UTC)

Dear Ratel, I can assure you that I am not Paltridge. I am interested in the principle of maximum entropy production because I am interested in atmospheric energy transfer. As you know, the principle of maximum entropy production was introduced to atmospheric energy transport studies by Paltridge. That is how I learnt of his work. I am still studying the principle, trying to understand its physical meaning and how to apply it. It is no simple thing.Chjoaygame (talk) 10:24, 7 October 2009 (UTC)

That's fine then. I only asked because of your editing history and writing style. ► RATEL ◄ 11:15, 7 October 2009 (UTC)

It would be more interesting for someone to respond to Chjoaygame's point, which I believe is quite valid.

From conspiracy theory: "Conspiracy theory is a term that originally was a neutral descriptor for any conspiracy claim. However, it has come almost exclusively to refer to any theory which explains a historical or current event as the result of a secret plot by usually powerful Machiavellian conspirators, such as a "secret team" or "shadow government", rather than broad social forces and large structures of human collectivities."

Further: "The term is therefore often used dismissively in an attempt to characterize a belief as outlandishly false and held by a person judged to be a crank or a group confined to the lunatic fringe. Such characterization is often the subject of dispute due to its possible unfairness and inaccuracy."

Paltridge's view doesn't include a "secret plot", but rather involves opportunists the world over, all going along with a "consensus" for their own independent reasons. In most cases, these reasons include a real belief that there is a greenhouse gas problem. Further, there are no actual conspirators. Paltridge has not suggested that the IPCC hatched a secret plot to defraud the world -- that's not how it works either. What Paltridge is proposing fits much better inside "broad social forces and large structures of human collectivities" than in "secret plots" and "conspirators". Finally, the pejorative and dismissive aspect of referring to someone as a "conspiracy theorist" needs to be noted.

For these reasons along with the fact that no attempt has been made in this article to satisfy WP:V -- of the utmost importance in a BLP -- this link needs to be removed. Alex Harvey (talk) 05:31, 8 October 2009 (UTC)

Lavoisier Group

I note a fact tag has been added beside this. Can someone show me a source where Paltridge is shown to be a member of the Lavoiser Group? Thanks.

No response here, I have removed the text from the article. Alex Harvey (talk) 02:28, 9 October 2009 (UTC)

article should be broken in two

I believe as is the case with all of these sorts of bios, we need one page for Paltridge and another page for his book. Any objections? Alex Harvey (talk) 02:28, 9 October 2009 (UTC)