Talk:Żydokomuna

AFD

This page was nominated on the Articles for Deletion page, but I closed it as an incomplete nomination, so it should not be considered as either a 'keep' or a 'delete' recommendation from the community. I mention it here to ensure that any future nominations start with a "second nomination" subpage, as described in the AFD documentation. Turnstep 01:10, 26 April 2006 (UTC)

Rewording

Perhaps we should say a couple words why Jews were attracted to revolutionary movements. ←Humus sapiens←ну? 03:51, 9 November 2005 (UTC)

As rabbi Soloveitchik said, there are Jews and Jews. `'mikka (t) 23:14, 25 May 2006 (UTC)

Is that an attempt at an excuse? By that logic, all opression is justified. While Jews have been persecuted, they are not themselves free of such crimes as well. That would illustrate a "holier-than-thou" mentality, esp. in the light of current events in the Middle East.

• Article is antisemitic. For to delete 84.204.107.177 22:22, 25 May 2006 (UTC)
  • It is not. It does describe an antisemitic sentiment of the time. We have Nazism article, which does not mean that it is a nazist article to be deleted. `'mikka (t) 23:10, 25 May 2006 (UTC)

Evolution of the term

I corrected the article to describe the term as it was used through the times, and not simply its the late 20th abuse. I don't think the estimates and their documentation are available online, but the overrepresentation of Jews in the pre-war and early after-war Communist government is universally accepted among the mainstream historians.

It is also pretty much universally accepted that Jews were more likely to cooperate with the Soviets during 1939-1941 occupation than the Polish, but I don't have any hard numbers here. For example Jedwabne massacre seemed to have some elements of anti-Żydokomuna backlash, as Lenin monument was destroyed during it. It would be nice to write something about that part of the phenomenon too. Taw 12:29, 7 July 2006 (UTC)

tagged as unverified

this article cites no sources for the term or information listed here. Sources need to be added.--Isotope23 19:03, 12 July 2006 (UTC)

What kind of "verification" is needed?

There are countless books on the subject - I have just added a link to one of them published by Columbia University Press. What other information needs sourcing?

I had nothing to do with this article until now, and do not participate much in Wikipedia, but the criticism of the article as well as attempts to delete it are not genuine as they simply are means to enforce a taboo on the specific subject of active participation of SOME Jews in the Communism movement and oppression that happened even at the risk of alienating their co-citizens.

Whether we like it or not, the events happened, all can be done now is an attempt to collect the views on the subject from both sides of the conflict. Saa 13:29, 13 July 2006 (UTC)

Book links are fine. I just want to verify the books, then I will remove the tags. My only concern is that this was not sourced at all and verification by reliable sources is absolutely a must for articles.--Isotope23 18:45, 14 July 2006 (UTC)

Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Żydokomuna (2 nomination)

The result of this AfD discussion was keep. (aeropagitica) 22:58, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

No sources

The entire article lacks sources; and presumes that antisemitic ravings have some basis in fact; they do not. Antisemitism is a part of Christian, (and Moslem), theology (and therefore exists in the absence of Jews; and arises because of doubt about the truth of these aforementioned religions, and the need for an enemy to blame who is unable, due to size and resources, to effectively reply). All, or substantially all, of the Jews in Poland were murdered during WWII (in the Holocaust). It is common in backward and superstitious societies, such as Poland, for many to believe outragious fantasies. According to Robert Wistrich most of the Polish peasantry still believes in the Blood libel (see: Antisemitism: The Longest Hatred, Pantheon, 1992). --Lance ^talk 07:31, 14 November 2006 (UTC)

"Żydokomuna" is not antisemitic by definition

Yes, I agree it's derogative, but it's directed not against Jews as a nation, but against Jewish communists. It is often used by antisemists, who change meaning from "most Communists are Jews" to "Jews support communism", but it's also used by people neutral or even by anticommunistic Jews. A.J. 11:35, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

• Adam Michnik wrote in Powściągliwość i Praca (nr 6, 1988 r.) "środowiskiem, z którego pochodzę, jest liberalna żydokomuna." (I'm comming from liberal żydokomuna environnment). Did Adam Michnik use "antisemitic" word to describe his own roots? Surely not, so while most used in negative meaning, the term itself has another, more neutral sense and can be used to describe Jewish communists regardless of their hypothetical or actual position in communist movement. A.J. 13:59, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

POV

This article is full of antisemitism and needs to be rewritten.

• Then rewrite it. Mieciu K 00:19, 11 March 2007 (UTC)

Confused POV

I don't get it. If you read the beginning of the article, it appears that Żydokomuna is a "conspiracy theory" i.e. something that is not true. However, much of the article reads as if the claim (that Communism was supported by Jews) is true. Thus, the article seems a bit schizophrenic about which stance it is taking. It's OK to present multiple POVs (i.e. that some people say it's true and some people say it's not true) but the article needs to adopt an NPOV stance which views all POVs from a neutral and objective third-party perspective. This article fails to do that. --Richard 07:48, 11 March 2007 (UTC)

Read conspiracy theory - it's not the same as "false theory". A.J. 16:26, 12 March 2007 (UTC)

Not the "same" but close enough. From the Conspiracy theory article...

The term "conspiracy theory" is used by mainstream scholars and in popular culture to identify a type of folklore similar to an urban legend, especially an explanatory narrative which is constructed with particular methodological flaws.[2] The term is also used pejoratively to dismiss claims that are alleged by critics to be misconceived, paranoid, unfounded, outlandish, irrational, or otherwise unworthy of serious consideration. For example "Conspiracy nut" and "conspiracy theorist" are used as pejorative terms. Some whose theories or speculations are labeled a "conspiracy theory" reject the term as prejudicial.

The term "conspiracy theory" may be a neutral descriptor for any conspiracy claim. To conspire means "to join in a secret agreement to do an unlawful or wrongful act or to use such means to accomplish a lawful end."[3] However, conspiracy theory is also used to indicate a narrative genre that includes a broad selection of (not necessarily related) arguments for the existence of grand conspiracies, any of which might have far-reaching social and political implications if true.

Whether or not a particular conspiracy allegation may be impartially or neutrally labeled a conspiracy theory is subject to some controversy. Conspiracy theory has become a highly charged political term, and the broad critique of 'conspiracy theorists' by academics, politicians, psychologists, and the media cuts across traditional left-right political lines.

The above text is itself schizophrenic and suggests that there is POV pushing within that article.

If this article wants to cast Żydokomuna as a "conspiracy theory", then it needs to say "according to this theory....". If it wants to cast Żydokomuna as being a true concept, then it can do so but the standards for sourcing are higher.

We can have the article assert that Żydokomuna is true and qualify it by saying "but some argue that it is a conspiracy theory". Or, we can assert that it is a conspiracy theory and qualify that by saying "but some argue that it is true". In both cases, proper sourcing will be requireed.

What we should not do is start with one POV and subtly crossover to another without signalling to the reader that there has been a shift in POV. Doing that is just confusing.

--Richard 16:33, 12 March 2007 (UTC)

I don't write in Eghlish good enough to help you... On Polish Wikipedia we have two articles:

• Żydokomuna about the word and how it's used
• Jews and communism - about facts and concepts related with Jewish part in communist movement, including conspiracy theories.

Maybe splitting the article is the good step? A.J. 17:36, 15 March 2007 (UTC)

Unfortunately, I don't read Polish. English Wikipedia has an article titled Jewish Bolshevism which mentions Żydokomuna but the Jewish Bolshevism article is mostly about Jews and the Russian Revolution and not about Jews and communism in general.

Here's what I think we need to know... what factual evidence is there that Polish Jews were more involved in the Communist takeover of Poland than non-Jewish Poles? Can it be shown that they were disproportionately represented in the Polish Communist party? I don't think there is much support for the idea of a "Jewish conspiracy" although there should perhaps be some reference to the use that Nazi propaganda made of that allegation.

--Richard 21:02, 15 March 2007 (UTC)

I've just read article after your coorrections and I doubt that Polish version could be better. I don't have access to sources you ask: there are however plenty of sources prooving, that overpresence of Jews among communist leaders was (and still is today) a popular theory. A.J. 11:00, 16 March 2007 (UTC)

So the problem is... is Żydokomuna to be treated by Wikipedia as fact or "popular theory" that is unsupported by fact? There are some "facts" provided in the article but without sources. Is it possible to list the Jews among the Communist leaders? Also, what is the support for the assertion that Communism had little popular support among Poles? Are there current sources (in the last 10-15 years) that mention Żydokomuna as being current belief rather than past belief? --Richard 15:42, 16 March 2007 (UTC)

Yes, there are some facts, one can list communist leaders with Jewish nationality, as it's done ni pl:Żydzi a komunizm. The main problem is interpretation of these facts :) I'm not expert in this subject, though. Communism is not very popular at all nowdays, so even current beliefs are more about history than today. EOT for me, my vocabulary seems to be not good enough :) Cheers! A.J. 17:10, 16 March 2007 (UTC)

I don't know Polish but I presume the list you are talking about is in the section titled "Niektórzy polscy komuniści pochodzenia żydowskiego". Can you translate this section title into English for me? Thanks. --Richard 14:47, 21 March 2007 (UTC)

It's "Some Polish communists of Jewish origin.".-- _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk}  23:35, 21 March 2007 (UTC)

Decline in Jewish influence

I think the name of this section is completely inappropriate. It can be seen as justification for this conspiracy theory. Overall state of this article is also very poor. Almost nothing is said about results of this antisemitic myth on lives of Polish Jews - from Pinsk massacre of 1919 to Jedwabne pogrom to post WW II pogroms in Poland such as Kielce pogrom. M0RD00R 14:24, 21 March 2007 (UTC)

So fix it! Write a section about the impact of the myth on Polish Jews. However, if you claim that a pogrom was inspired or influenced by the myth of Jewish communism, you will need to provide citations to reliable sources to establish the linkage. --Richard 14:48, 21 March 2007 (UTC)

The myths were very realistic, when Jewish officers tortured, Jewish lawyers accused and issuded death sentences and Jewish editors printed Marx/Lenin/Stalin's "Collected works". Poles relaced Jews after 1956.Xx236 13:08, 26 March 2007 (UTC)

This allegation was denied by official sources which claimed that the Ministry of Security employed only one Jewish officer, presumably the head of the Ministry, Jakub Berman

Don't write nonsence -

• Berman wasn't an officer, he was a party supervisor.
• Many officers were of Jewish origins, 37% according to Szwagrzyk http://pl.indymedia.org/pl/2005/12/17671.shtmlXx236 12:40, 26 March 2007 (UTC)

I found Szwagrzyk publication independently and added it to the article.-- _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk}  01:27, 4 April 2007 (UTC)

Origin of the term

The text is POV. It doesn't inform what was the ratio of people of Jewish origins in the Communist Party before 1937. BTW - the article pl:Żydzi a komunizm contains some academic informations. Xx236 12:43, 26 March 2007 (UTC)

Unfortunatly that article is mostly unreferenced.-- _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk}  01:26, 4 April 2007 (UTC)

Scope

I think we should limit this article to discussion of the conspiracy theory/slurr 'Żydokomuna', and the rest should go to History of Polish Jews or even better, to article about Polish Jews in the communist movement or something similar. That said, the line can be blurry - as they say, every great lie is based on a grain of truth (as Szwagrzyk, for example, shows in his research on Jews in SB).-- _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk}  01:31, 4 April 2007 (UTC)

• Hopefully there will also be an article about Polish Jews and the Catholic Church and even Polish Jews in the Roman Catholic Church. Let's work on it. IZAK 17:47, 17 October 2007 (UTC)
  • There is an article on Frankism.-- _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk}  18:00, 21 October 2007 (UTC)

Original research & Antisemitic analysis

1. This section below consists of Original research, an attempt to explain an Antisemitic ethnic slur by showing that Polish Jews were more often Communists than Catholic Jews, or by some similar kind of demographic analysis.
2. Also, there is no Single source given, but statistics are taken from all kinds of source.
3. So why does it matter how many Jew were or were not Communist? The situation is the same. There is no possible place for this kind of analysis - because both are equally inappropriate.
4. Furthermore, a text which tries to explain why Jews were Communists as being relevant to this ethnic slur is prima facie antisemitic "on its face." Both are ipso facto derrogatory - and any kind analysist of this kind, associated with abusive terms is absolutely improper. It cannot but somehow justify the abuse of Jews and Poles in the same way.

• Accordingly, the paragraph below should and must be deleted:

“ Polish Communist Party (KPP) had a very strong power base among the Jews. In Polish court proceedings against communists between 1927 and 1936, 90% accused were Jews. Out of fifteen leaders of KPP central administration in 1936, eight were Jews. Jews constituted 53 percent of the member of the "active members" (aktyw) of KPP, 75 percent of its "publication apparatus", 90 percent of the "international department for help to revolutionaries" and 100 percent of the "technical apparatus" of the Home Secretariat. In terms of membership, before its dissolution in 1938, 25 percent of KPP members were Jews; most of urban members of KPP were Jews - a significant number when compared to 8.7% of Jewish minority in pre-war Second Polish Republic. Nonetheless research of voting patterns of Poland's parliamentary elections of 1920's has shown that Jewish support for communist parties was proportionally less than their representation of the total population; based on the 1928 election data it can be estimated that only 5% of Jews were sympathetic enough to the communist cause to vote for the KPP. In the end while most Jews were not communists nor communist sympathizers, a very significant and quite visible portion of Polish Communists in the interwar period were Jewish. This disproportionately large participation of Jews in communist movement led to the spread of the Żydokomuna myth, which in late 30's was widely used in nationalist Endecja party propaganda, which was hoping to seize power after the death of Józef Piłsudski in 1935. ”

Yours truly, --Ludvikus 02:45, 21 October 2007 (UTC)

• PS:What does any of the above have to do with the Antisemitic slur?
• How is it that no one has yet realized that it is totally irrelevant to the article?
• All these statistics are simply designed to blame Jews for Communism (and to say that Poles were their victims).
• It is not like asking how many Poles are Republicans or Democrats at all.

  Yours truly, --Ludvikus 02:56, 21 October 2007 (UTC)

original research excuses and qualifications

The following is wrong:

“ The term is similar to the "Judeo-bolshevism" rhetoric of Nazi Germany, wartime Romania[2] and other war-torn countries of Eastern Europe.[3] ”

• There is no justification for making excuses for this antisemitism by saying other countries did it too, and it was because things were bad during the war. That's original research that's unacceptable.
• If there are similar terms in these other countries, why are they not simply listed?

Yours truly, --Ludvikus 03:15, 21 October 2007 (UTC)

Interestng reading

• Żydzi skazani na komunę, Polish historian August Grabski in Gazeta Wyborcza, 2002.-- _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk}  17:58, 21 October 2007 (UTC)

Rename?

I propose that the article be renamed to Jewish Communism in Poland with a new introductory paragraph, and improved historical background about the vast differences in the political role of Jewish communists in prewar and postwar Poland. --Poeticbent talk 17:05, 21 October 2007 (UTC)

For the most part, I agree, although I'd suggest the name Communism and Jews in Poland, and I'd suggest splitting the content to the article, as the żydokomuna slurr is notable - although perhaps it may be merged with something.-- _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk}  17:58, 21 October 2007 (UTC)

But if that's allowed, how come the following is not allowed at Wikipedia Antisemites in Poland? --Ludvikus 18:21, 21 October 2007 (UTC)

And why not Polish communists in Poland? Why must Jews be singled out for such special scrutiny, but not the Polish people? --Ludvikus 18:24, 21 October 2007 (UTC)

Putting "Jews" and "Communism" together is an ethnic slur. Adding "Poland" to it merely makes it a Polish ethnic slur. --Ludvikus 18:32, 21 October 2007 (UTC)

The role of Polish communists in Poland beginning with the government of Bolesław Bierut and the place of Polish United Workers' Party is already explained under History of Poland (1945–1989) and so, there’s no need for yet another fork, as suggested by Ludvikus. However, the significance of the role played by Jewish communists in the history of postwar Poland is undeniable and can best be explained in this article under the condition that all pejorative terms be used only as illustrations of various reactions of the general populace, if at all. --Poeticbent talk 19:14, 21 October 2007 (UTC)

OK.

• Since Polish Communists are discussed in Polish History. By analogy, Jewish Communists should be discussed in Jewish Hostory.
• Regarding the Polish United Workers' Party I note that there's no artificial, Wikipedian, juxtaposition of terms. Accordingly, we do have a real organization called the Jewish Bund. Any real organization can be discussed and written about. But why create Original Research categories that do not exist outside Wikipedia? I don't know how the Polish Communist Party is written about. I doubt they separated themselves into Catholic Poles and Jewish Jews. It may be interesting and informative to look at it. But since there's no such thing as the Jewish Polish Communist Party I would object writing about that too. --Ludvikus 19:36, 21 October 2007 (UTC)
• Here I found two (2): Poalei Zion and the Vereinigte. Both are 100% OK to write about. --Ludvikus 19:40, 21 October 2007 (UTC)
• And here's another OK real organization: Jewish Communist Bund. a.k.a. Kombund. --Ludvikus 19:45, 21 October 2007 (UTC)
• Maybe this counterexample will help make my point better: History of Non-Jewish Poland, or History of Non-Communist Poland, or History of Non-Jewish and Non-Communist Poland. There is something wrong with these, no? I think that all of these deny the Jews the starus of Polish citizenship. There were 4,000,000 Jews in Poland before Hitler, no? So they must have played some role in Polish history just because there were so many. But why separate them into Communists and Non-Poles. I see no legitimate purpose in that. --Ludvikus 20:05, 21 October 2007 (UTC)
• Finally, studying Jews as Communists in Poland is a part of Jewish history. But it is not Polish history. Rather, it is merely Polish antisemitism. --Ludvikus 20:18, 21 October 2007 (UTC)

I highly disagree with this kind of logic. Studying Polish Jewish participation in the development of communism in Poland IS an integral part of Polish history including closely related subject of History of Jews in Poland. Denying it is merely Jewish anti-Polonism. --Poeticbent talk 20:59, 21 October 2007 (UTC)

I move that the author of this article, P.P., has an opportunity to further shape the name and structure of this article. While no one has exclusive ownership of an article, he seems to have a great grasp of the subject of Jews in the Pale. Dr. Dan 22:39, 21 October 2007 (UTC)

The meaning of komuna

According to the Dictionary of Polish Language (Słownik języka polskiego) by Wydawnictwo Naukowe PWN the word komuna has a generally accepted official meaning as well as two colloquial ones:
Lista haseł
wyniki od 1 do 2 z 2 znalezionych
komuna 1. «grupa ludzi żyjących razem na zasadach wspólnoty własności i pracy»
2. pot. «komuniści»
3. pot. «ustrój komunistyczny»
komuna miejska «organizacja samorządowa w miastach średniowiecznej Europy» [1]
Henceforth, in translation komuna could amount to any of the following: 1.a) a commune or 1.b) a municipality, 2) the communists (slang) or 3) a communist system (slang). However, in keeping with the Wiki encyclopaedic format, the only acceptable translation of the article name would be Judeo-Communism. Attempts at trying to be even more precise, while veering away from the official nomenclature would inevitably amount to WP:OR. --Poeticbent talk 18:48, 26 October 2007 (UTC)

Strange wording about Niemcewicz

Did Niemcewicz wrote about "Żydokomuna" in 1817 ? And if so it couldn't have meant what the article describes as Żydokomuna, since at that I don't think Jews weren't associated with communism or that term was in widespread usage. So either he didn't wrote that sentence, or Żydokomuna has different meanings then the introduction says it has ? Of course I could be wrong, but it seems strange to me.--Molobo (talk) 04:47, 16 January 2008 (UTC)

I just changed this portion of text. Niemcewicz was thinking about the French Revolution, not Bolshevism.--Cellorando (talk) 16:44, 27 July 2008 (UTC)

Światło not relevant?

One of the most popularized defections of a Polish Jewish operative: [2]. --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk} 19:08, 12 August 2008 (UTC)

How is that relevant to the Żydokomuna conspiracy theory? Boodlesthecat ^Meow? 21:51, 12 August 2008 (UTC)

The story whose main "hero" was an important UB officer of Jewish origin reinforced the popular feeling that high UB officers are Jews... --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk} 05:48, 13 August 2008 (UTC)

Ah, I think you've hit the nail on the head as far as what's wrong with this article. First off--do you have a source that indicates that the story of this particular contributed to the anti-semitic Żydokomuna phenomena? In the absence of a reliable source about Żydokomuna making that connection, surely you see that this is pure original research.

But on to the fundamental problem. Notice that the editor who removed the information (which you had characterized as " very relevant info") removed it with an edit summary that said

Removed a piece which as inserted looks like an attempt of justification of this ugly conspiracy theory. Sources on Z[ydokomuna] make no such connection

That summary is exactly correct, and exactly sums up the problem with this article, most of which looks like an original research synthesis just such "an attempt of justification of this ugly conspiracy theory."

Compare this article with, eg, the Anti-Polish sentiment article. Should we pepper that article with uncritical factoids illustrating every racist claim made by Nazis or other racists to justify their brutality against Poles? Should we have a delineation of all the Polish actions and qualities that bigots have manipulated in their bigotry against Poles? Complaints about cuisine? Results of intelligence tests? You get the picture. The two articles are like night and day, and this article, as it stands, is hopelessly encumbered with a style, tone and construction that is indeed ""an attempt of justification of this ugly conspiracy theory." Boodlesthecat ^Meow? 15:49, 13 August 2008 (UTC)

Piotrowski as a source

The dominant citations for this artcile are uncritical references to Tadeusz Piotrowski (1997). Poland's Holocaust. This is quite problematic; in addition to being a sociologist rather than a historian, Piotrowski is himself essentially a proponent of the Żydokomuna myth. He has no stature as a scholar of Polish Jewry, and is generally a marginal figure on the subject. Such a heavy reliance on his book is quite problematic for an encyclopedia article. Boodlesthecat ^Meow? 18:43, 25 September 2008 (UTC)

The evil oppressive Jews made the Poles hate them

I've moved the following Victim blaming original research to Talk: for further discussion:

Among high-ranking functionaries of the Stalinist organs of oppression (such as the Ministry of State Security, which played a role analogous to the Gestapo in Hitler's Germany), there were such names as Jozef Swiatlo (born Licht Fleischarb), Anatol Fejgin, Juliusz Hibner (born Dawid Schwartz), Roman Romkowski (born Natan Grunspau-Kikiel), and Jozef Rozanski (born Goldberg). Polish communist Wiktor Klosiewicz stated in an interview with Teresa Toranska: All the department directors of the Ministry of State Security were Jews.. Romkowski and Rozanski were in 1957 sentenced for 15 years, Fejgin received 12 years, all for brutally torturing incarcerated members of Polish patriotic resistance and for abusing their power.

It is quite helpful that Wikipedia editors have managed to reveal what the true Jew names were of these people, rather than the Polish names they deceitfully appropriated in an attempt to hide their nefarious origins. However, in relation to actual policy, do any of the sources actually mention these people or their actions in relation to Żydokomuna? Also, I note that one of the sources used is, again, that Polish sociologist who cherry-picks anti-Jewish material, and the other one doesn't have a page number. Do we have any reliable sources for any of this? Jayjg ^(talk) 00:45, 3 October 2008 (UTC)

Unfortunately, you missed the fact that this is a quotation of Stefan Korbonski, used by Piotrowski. True Jewish names of these persons are meaningful, as these individuals changed them themselves. Their ethnicity and activities were commonly known in Poland, and as such deepened the whole Zydokomuna myth, and this has to be mentioned in the article. I do not understand why you deleted this part, and please skip these quasi-pleasant remarks. Tymek (talk) 00:51, 3 October 2008 (UTC)

Yes, I understand how important you think it is to show their "true Jewish names", the ones they changed; otherwise someone might not understand what their ethnicity was, and would then fail to make the connection between their horrible "activities" and the ethnicity responsible for them. That said, you have failed to respond on the most important points. a) Do any of the sources relate this material to Żydokomuna? That is, I remind you, the topic of this article. And b) Do you have any reliable sources for any of this? That, I repeat, does not include the sociologist. Jayjg ^(talk) 00:59, 3 October 2008 (UTC)

I missed the second quotation, it comes from Polish version of Korbonski's book The Jews and the Poles in World War II, here is the link I missed [3].BTW, the book is available to those interested [4]. Tymek (talk) 00:58, 3 October 2008 (UTC)

Does he mention Żydokomuna in it? If so, where? Jayjg ^(talk) 00:59, 3 October 2008 (UTC)

Half of this article's sources do not mention Zydokomuna, so your question is irrelevant. Stefan Korbonski is a reliable source, like it or not, or better ask at WP:RS. Tymek (talk) 01:09, 3 October 2008 (UTC)

I haven't said anything about Korbonksi. Now that you bring him up, he appears to be a "politician, lawyer, journalist". I don't see historian in that list. Jayjg ^(talk) 01:16, 3 October 2008 (UTC)

Sad you haven't said anything about Korbonski, which means you did not even bother yourself to click on the source provided by me and read it. Tymek (talk) 16:44, 3 October 2008 (UTC)

The concept may and is described using other words; the content is quite relevant to the article and certainly no "original research".--_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk} 01:12, 3 October 2008 (UTC)

According to whom is the concept "described using other words", and the content "quite relevant to the article"? Please review WP:NOR again. Or are you saying Tymek has inserted this material as an example of Żydokomuna? Jayjg ^(talk) 01:16, 3 October 2008 (UTC)

Jayjg, as Tymek suggested below, try to assume some good faith. The informatice paragraph, listing the most (in)famous Jewish security officials in communist Poland, whose (in)fame in contemporary Poland was one of the main foundations of the Żydokomuna myth, is a valuable addition to the article. Removing it, understandable when it was not referenced, now that it is seems too much like IDONTLIKEIT. And if the source doesn't mention "źydokomuna", well, it doesn't change the relevancy - just as an article about American-Soviet tensions may not mention the phrase "Cold War" but be quite relevant to that article.--_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk} 14:54, 3 October 2008 (UTC)

As Jay has indicated, it seems unclear whether you and Tymek are more interested in demonstrating examples of Żydokomuna rather than writing an article about the concept. Contrary to your misrepresentation of the history of the subject, as the article, and numerous scholarly studies show, the Żydokomuna myth long predates the communist era in Poland, and the scapegoating of Jews for Polish communism is simply one facet of a longer history of Polish antisemitic scapegoating of Jews (eg, scapegoating of Jews for lack of educational opportunities for ethnic Poles, scapegoating Jewish merchants for lack of opportunities for ethnic Polish merchants, scapegoating Jews for lack of patriotism whenever they were caught between Polish and other national conflicts, including Pilsudski's imperial dreams, scapegoating Jews for supposed subversion of the Catholic church, etc etc). So your claim that the existence of Jewish names in the security apparatus being "one of the main foundations of the Żydokomuna myth" once again stands in contrast to scholarly consensus. As usual, you and Tymek are standing reality and history on its head, by trying to place the blame for "źydokomuna" on Jews rather than on the antisemites who propagated the myth. So contrary to your revisionist claim, Piotrus, "the main foundations of the Żydokomuna myth" lies in the extended history of elements of Polish society who have consistently attempted to blame Jews for every problem in Polish society--political, cultural, religious, social, military, economic or whatever. Boodlesthecat ^Meow? 16:59, 3 October 2008 (UTC)

Simplified as it is, this is your opinion, and you have the right to express it. At the same time, you are depriving other users from gaining full picture and expressing their opinion of the situation, by removing a valid, sourced and real information. I am presenting history as it was, with real names and real biographies. You are changing it, treating Wikipedia as your own battleground. I am hoping somebody neutral will stop by here. And you are wrong - Poles are not obsessed with Jews, unlike you being obsessed with Polish antisemitism. Tymek (talk) 18:55, 3 October 2008 (UTC)

You've been asked half a dozen times in this discussion to provide reliable sources showing how listing the names of these particular Jews is related to the anti-semitic stereotype of Żydokomuna. You can complain all you like about it, but the fact is, without reliable sourcing showing the relationship of those names to the subject of this article, you are simply adding original research. It's not complicated. Boodlesthecat ^Meow? 20:14, 3 October 2008 (UTC)

Here's one review of Korbonski: "Mr. Korbanski will never have to deal with the problems raised by the book; he passed away shortly after it was released. How sad that the final work of a man with so much to his credit is a splenetic diatribe, falling at times far below acceptable scholarly standards to the level of gutter literature."

Here's a lovely quote from Korbonski himslef: "The ten years of Jewish rule in Poland could not be easily forgotten. It was an era of the midnight knock at the door, arbitrary arrests, torture, and sometimes secret execution. Most of those responsible for that reign of terror left Poland and upon arrival in the West represented themselves as victims of Communism and anti-Semitism—a claim which was readily believed in the West and earned them the full support of their hosts." Jewish rule, huh? Boodlesthecat ^Meow? 01:53, 3 October 2008 (UTC)

And yet the fools of the Vad Yashem awarded him the prestigious medal. And user Jayig, the title of this section, The evil oppressive Jews made the Poles hate them suggests that you can hardly keep your negative emotions towards the Poles. Hatred is bad, believe me. Tymek (talk) 04:45, 3 October 2008 (UTC)

How on earth are his wartime activities relevant to his reliability as a source for these claims? As for the rest, Tymek, rather than giving your faulty opinions about other editors emotional states and beliefs, please discuss article content. Comment on content, not on the contributor. Thanks. Jayjg ^(talk) 03:25, 5 October 2008 (UTC)

I am hoping that some uninvolved person will present their opinion here, as obviously, both my opponents are too emotional and too biased. I guess neither of you understands the title of the article. It is not about oppression, pogroms or Jewish victims. It is about a phenomenon called Jewish Communism and what this phenomenon looks like when compared to reality. And the reality was that Jews were numerous among most vicious members of the apparatus of repression. Wikipedia readers have the right to know this, and to know names of these functionaries. The project is not created for ourselves, but for people around the world. Share your knowledge and create comprehensive encyclopedia, with all known facts presented in a fair way. Removing sourced information is a sad reminder of communist censorship and I will report it. Tymek (talk) 16:44, 3 October 2008 (UTC)

Tymek, please. Why don't you read the opening sentence of the article:

Żydokomuna (Polish for "Judeo-Communism" or "Judeo-Bolshevism") is a pejorative term that has been used to express an antisemitic stereotype that blamed Jews for having advocated, introduced and run Communism in Poland.[1]

The article you think exists, which you descrive as being "about a phenomenon called Jewish Communism, an article which describes evil Jewish "vicious members of the apparatus of repression" resides somewhere else--in the annals of anti-semitic literature. Not in this encyclopedia. I welcome you to "report" whatever and wherever you please. But please keep your uncivil accusations of "communist censorship" to yourself, particularly as a justification of your own attempts to make this entry into a vehicle for anti-semitic libels. Boodlesthecat ^Meow? 19:00, 3 October 2008 (UTC)

Tymek, rather than giving your faulty opinions about other editors emotional states and beliefs, please discuss article content. Comment on content, not on the contributor. Thanks. Jayjg ^(talk) 03:23, 5 October 2008 (UTC)

I am requesting content RfC. PS. Note that removal of names has begun earlier: #Światło not relevant?. --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk} 18:38, 3 October 2008 (UTC)

Światło material was removed for the same reason--it was original research in which no WP:RS was supplied indicating the connection to the subject of this article. Boodlesthecat ^Meow? 18:53, 3 October 2008 (UTC)

The defection of Jozef Swiatlo and the Search for Jewish Scapegoats in the Polish United Workers' Party, 1953-1954, for example, begs to differ.--_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk} 23:47, 3 October 2008 (UTC)

That link is dead. The document's been moved here. — [[::User:Malik Shabazz|Malik Shabazz]] ([[::User talk:Malik Shabazz|talk]] · [[::Special:Contributions/Malik Shabazz|contribs]]) 03:23, 4 October 2008 (UTC)

Prominent individuals

• Including a list of prominent Jewish Communists, in the absence of a source that links them to Żydokomuna, is WP:SYNTH. — [[::User:Malik Shabazz|Malik Shabazz]] ([[::User talk:Malik Shabazz|talk]] · [[::Special:Contributions/Malik Shabazz|contribs]]) 19:37, 3 October 2008 (UTC)

This article is about stereotype/myth of Judeo-Communism. Including a few names of prominent Jewish Communists is perfectly logical and reasonable here. A reader has the right to be informed about whole spectrum of the problem. Tymek (talk) 21:38, 3 October 2008 (UTC)

... so long as a reliable source relates them to the subject of the article. Otherwise it's pure synthesis. — [[::User:Malik Shabazz|Malik Shabazz]] ([[::User talk:Malik Shabazz|talk]] · [[::Special:Contributions/Malik Shabazz|contribs]]) 22:16, 3 October 2008 (UTC)

Many sources note that above average participation of Jews in Polish communist apparatus led to the persistence of the żydokomuna myth. Various sources give varying level of details on the most famous of them. To censor out links to the most prominent Polish-Jewish communists seems... strange, at least.--_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk} 23:47, 3 October 2008 (UTC)

... if the point is that "above average participation of Jews in Polish communist apparatus led to the persistence of the żydokomuna myth", and if there are many sources that can be cited to support it, then they should be cited as saying that. listing a handful of prominent names doesn't support the thesis of "above average participation". if someone wants to assert that the handful of individuals listed led to the persistence of the myth, that's an entirely different point, and it needs to be supported by sources that *explicitly* make that point. otherwise it is indeed WP:SYNTH, as i understand it. Sssoul (talk) 16:20, 4 October 2008 (UTC)

Piotrus will be hard pressed to find "many sources" which "note that above average participation of Jews in Polish communist apparatus led to the persistence of the żydokomuna myth." Because he has stood history and those sources on their head. What accounts for the persistence of the zydokomuna myth, obviously, is the persistence of Polish anti-semitism. Indeed, the myth continues to this day, even in a Poland practically devoid of Jews--hence the phenomena of anti-semitism without Jews. Boodlesthecat ^Meow? 16:48, 4 October 2008 (UTC)

Somehow there is not a myth of Ukrainian-komuna, or German-komuna. Anyway, thank you Sssoul for your opinion, it is far more convincing than whatever Boodlesthecat writes. BTW Boodlesthecat, have you ever been to Poland, since you know so much about attitudes of Poles towards Jews? It is very interesting that so many Jews across centuries decided to settle in antisemitic Poland, not in friendly Sweden or pleasant Italy. Seriously, they must have been blind. Tymek (talk) 18:45, 4 October 2008 (UTC)

Actually 95% of the Jews who survived the Holocaust in Poland left after the war because of Polish anti-semmitism. This isn't the 14th century. Boodlesthecat ^Meow? 19:45, 4 October 2008 (UTC)

Got a ref for that? I am sure it wouldn't be an ORish statement, right? --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk} 20:03, 4 October 2008 (UTC)

There's a dozen refs for it. When I put it in an article, I will cite it. Boodlesthecat ^Meow? 20:12, 4 October 2008 (UTC)

Really? What I see is removal of citation requests and such.--_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk} 20:14, 4 October 2008 (UTC)

Everything that I have added is in the cites given. If you are having trouble reading it (some of the ones you tagged pop up right in your face when you clink the link) put your query on the talk page, rather than deface the article with multiple tags.Boodlesthecat ^Meow? 20:16, 4 October 2008 (UTC)

Per WP:V and WP:CITE, unreferenced sentences can be removed. Reference them, format the refs properly (cite the page), or don't complain if your content is removed with accordance to our policies. By tagging your unreferenced content, I am giving you more consideration than you gave to Tymek few days ago when you immediately removed his unreferenced content.--_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk} 20:33, 4 October 2008 (UTC)

His content was unreferenced, and as clearly discussed above, the issue was that it was OR,.. Mine is fully referenced. If you have a question about a particular fact cited, bring it to talk. I seriously advise you to stop your bullying threats to vandalize articles that contain referenced material you dont like. Boodlesthecat ^Meow? 20:42, 4 October 2008 (UTC)

No, your content is not fully referenced, I tagged sentences missing inline citations and you removed my citation requests, a clear violation of WP:V. Your accusations of bully'ing are completely out of line.--_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk} 00:04, 5 October 2008 (UTC)

Per WP:V, "The source should be cited clearly and precisely to enable readers to find the text that supports the article content in question." If there is a URL that links directly to the page in question, the reader can find the text that supports the content. While a page number would be ideal, adding a dozen "page number" tags to the article when the sources in question include URLs looks like vandalism. See WP:POINT. — [[::User:Malik Shabazz|Malik Shabazz]] ([[::User talk:Malik Shabazz|talk]] · [[::Special:Contributions/Malik Shabazz|contribs]]) 20:52, 4 October 2008 (UTC)

Per WP:CITE, book references require page numbers. This is why we have Template:Page number, and removal of such templates is unhelpful.--_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk} 00:04, 5 October 2008 (UTC)

Please note that WP:V is a policy and WP:CITE is a style guideline "that editors should attempt to follow, though it is best treated with common sense and the occasional exception". — [[::User:Malik Shabazz|Malik Shabazz]] ([[::User talk:Malik Shabazz|talk]] · [[::Special:Contributions/Malik Shabazz|contribs]]) 02:49, 5 October 2008 (UTC)

Piotrus, as you know, and as has been pointed out, the citations themselves led directly to the book pages in questions, so the addition of the "page number" tags was simply WP:POINT. Please desist from these kinds of disruptions. Jayjg ^(talk) 03:45, 5 October 2008 (UTC)

I don't see anything wrong with naming these evil-doers, readers should get a full picture of historical events. There's evidence of their crimes and that they took active role in the apparatus of oppression so this could really lead to strengthening of the stereotype and myth that Żydokomuna was responsible, hence a place in the article is quite justified.
As a side note there are parallels between the US in the 1950s and Poland - Poland was tormented by the oppressive communist regime and USA didn't want their democracy be undermined by communist spies and propaganda. Kpjas (talk) 21:57, 4 October 2008 (UTC)

The article is about an anti-semitic myth, not about Jewish evildoers. If there is a ref that says these individuals played a role in the myth, it should be supplied. Boodlesthecat ^Meow? 22:13, 4 October 2008 (UTC)

Let's find some common ground:

• it was a myth/stereotype
• it was anti-Semitic (rather obvious if it was pejorative and concerning Jews)
• it was politically inspired and employed (Stalin, Nazis, Polish communists etc.)
• the myth wouldn't be possible without historical figures - at the top of secret police department, post-war Żydokomuna was deeply rooted in the Polish hatred of the communist regime

Kpjas (talk) 22:35, 4 October 2008 (UTC)

The myth long predates the communist republic, so obviously it would be possible without these individuals. And this myth about Jews continuesn to this day, after the republic is buried. Boodlesthecat ^Meow? 22:39, 4 October 2008 (UTC)

Questionable reference

There seems to be a fault in referencing because ref. no 42 refers to the first sentence of "1950s-present" section:

Postwar Polish-Jewish relations has lent itself to controversy, with the Żydokomuna myth again being revived.

and the ref is

Omer Bartov. Erased: Vanishing Traces of Jewish Galicia in Present-Day Ukraine. Princeton University Press, 2007.

clearly a personal voyage into the past genocide and digging up remembrances in the Ukraine not post-war Poland (Ukraine ceased to be a part of Poland after 1945) Such a ref cannot be used as a reference to support this statement. Kpjas (talk) 21:44, 4 October 2008 (UTC)

Thanks ,replaced with an appropriate ref. Boodlesthecat ^Meow? 22:09, 4 October 2008 (UTC)

Problems with this article

Hi,

I see a few problems with this article:

• it is not neutral, leaning towards Jewish victimisation and Polish "strong" anti-Semitism as a source of Żydokomuna
• important historical facts are being left out, for example persecution of a large proportion of Polish society by the Soviet-backed communist secret police where at least in popular perception Jewish communists played the crucial role
• Jewish victimisation side's use of weak, questionable or POV references and deliberately avoiding historical research by the Polish Institute of National Remembrance. Researchers also have their POVs so there should be a balance
• I tried to wipe the slate clean, and offered a new discussion with several facts that both sides could accept without extra conditions but my proposal has been generally ignored

Solution:

• let's start with discussion about references and historical facts and forget about prejudices against Poland and all Poles that is a major stumbling block on the other side

Kpjas (talk) 06:58, 5 October 2008 (UTC)

1. This is an article about an antisemitic stereotype; as such, it does indeed deal with the "popular [Polish] perception Jewish communists played a crucial role" in "persecution of Polish society".
2. Your claim that the "Jewish victimisation side" uses "weak, questionable or POV references" is nonsense.
3. Your statement that the "prejudices against Poland and all Poles... is a major stumbling block on the other side" is offensive nonsense.

Please restrict further comments to discussions of specific article content, and suggestions for improvements that are in line with policies. Jayjg ^(talk) 07:36, 5 October 2008 (UTC)

There is a problem with this article. It's an article about an antisemitic canard, but some editors seem to think it's an article about Jewish Communists. That is indeed a problem. How do you suggest we remedy the problem? — [[::User:Malik Shabazz|Malik Shabazz]] ([[::User talk:Malik Shabazz|talk]] · [[::Special:Contributions/Malik Shabazz|contribs]]) 07:54, 5 October 2008 (UTC)

Not sure. When people show up at the Kosher tax article, trying to prove that Kosher certification is really a hidden Jew tax, or at Holocaust denial trying to explain that it was really the Jews who made Germans hate them, they're usually firmly dealt with by (rightly) disgusted editors. Jayjg ^(talk) 08:09, 5 October 2008 (UTC)

There seems to exist a group of editors who are over-sensitive, take things personally and have a steadfast (political) view influenced by seemingly a large body of publications that neglect important facts. All I propose and appeal for is calm and peaceful cooperation for the common good of reliable Wikipedia. It is NPOV and reliable sources that make Wikipedia a worthwhile resource/reference. It would be fantastic to show that we can together break apparently impenetrable barriers and work assuming good faith and showing respect to each other. Kpjas (talk) 10:34, 5 October 2008 (UTC)

You are still talking about editors, not about article content. Comment on content, not on the contributor. Jayjg ^(talk) 15:14, 5 October 2008 (UTC)

Re Malik's question. The foundation of the zydokomuna canard is not just that the communists (small or large C) were Jews, but, more importantly (and more deadly, as a source for murderous pogroms) that all Jews were suspect as communists supporting a Jewish plot to seize control. That was why I initially added the data that refuted the support of communism by Jews at the mass level, rather than just remove the more or less accurate but purposely decdontextualized data about the percentage of Jews in communist leadership. The myth isnt that there are a bunch of Jews in the (western) communist movement,, but that communism was a Jewish plot. I dont know if my expanding these sections has helped or simply made the article more about Jewish communists and thus made this article less accuartae or more accurate. The article was fundamentally tainted by an approach that seemed intent on proving the myth, rather than describing it (an approach that those who are complaining now about anti-Polishness and other nonsense seemed to have no problem with at the time).

As to the post war period, the listing of evil Jewish oppressors is obviously ridiculous and anti-semitic baiting by some editors. The myth did, though, figure into the communist republic years; there were party concerns that disproportionate Jewish representation was problematic (and of course, these concerns simply demonstrate concern about the reactions of a populace that had a deep history of antisemitism), and there were the cynical political uses the myth was put to in intra party poweer struggles, where factiuons used the Jew card against each other (again, with an eye on public perceptioons). Some of the "evil Jews" named by editors did indeed figure into this intrigues. But they were clearly being scapegoated for brutal party policies; it was factional opponents who cynically and self servingly attempted to portray these actions as the actions of Jews, rather than as party functionaries navigating the treacherous waters of Stalin era politics (where being on the losing side often meant bye bye).

The problem of course, is that in trying to accurately discuss this history, we are faced with incessant insertions (a la the Kosher tax article) of anti-Jewish crap, and who add insult to injury with idiotic claims about those overly sensitive Jews being so touchy. This article--and all articles concerning Polish Jews where this problem has raged, need some serious Wikipedia oversight (I've been taking crap from a bully crowd for way too long simply for adding well sourced material to these articles). Boodlesthecat ^Meow? 16:33, 5 October 2008 (UTC)

Other parties?

In the text its mentioned that just 5% of the Jewish population sympathized with communism in 1928. However, KPP was far from the only Marxist organization in Poland at the time. In the years immediately preceding WWII, the major party in the Jewish community was the Bund. Was the Żydokomuna discourse limited to the KPP, or would it be directed the Marxist Jewish left as a whole? --Soman (talk) 08:51, 5 October 2008 (UTC)

Żydokomuna is not limited to the KPP, nor to the Marxist Jewish left, nor even to the Jews. We are talking about extremist conspiracy theory that is applied to everyone that falls out of nationalists favour. Liberal press is Zydokomuna, President Kwasniewski is Zydokomuna etc. M0RD00R (talk) 13:36, 5 October 2008 (UTC)

Anti-Semitic organizations such as Antyk is not a reliable source

I've seen it all - nacjonalista.pl and other extremist publications used as a reference, exhausting revert warring over "sources" written by National Revival of Poland ideologists, so it does not surprise me to see same faces trying to push yet another "source" by yet another openly anti-Semitic publishing house - Antyk, outlet for the distribution of hard-line antisemitic books and magazines, including the publications of the National Revival of Poland. M0RD00R (talk) 09:07, 5 October 2008 (UTC)

Yes, the amendments are reasonable and welcomed. I think that the reference that Piotrus proposed earlier [5] is quite valuable and reliable should also be used by all editors of this article (reinstated). Kpjas (talk) 10:47, 5 October 2008 (UTC)