Talk:Atropa belladonna

Removed the following text from the description; Note:

The photo that appeared prior to this editing was not a photo of deadly nightshade, and has been intentionally deleted. The previous photo showed a woody shrub, with red berries and deep purple flowers. Atropa belladonna has herbaceous stems (non woody), unripe green berries that turn black when ripe, and dull purple flowers. Imc 20:50, 10 Oct 2004 (UTC)

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Whoever added the interwiki link to the Bridge player Belladonna: there must be a better way than to create cross-namespace redirects. How about adding a page about Georges? JFW | T@lk 20:06, 23 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Western Hemisphere

Belladonna is one of the most toxic plants to be found in the Western hemisphere.

Is there any particular reason that this does not say "world"? Specifically indicating "...in the Western Hemisphere" implies that it isn't found in the Eastern Hemisphere, and according to the intro, it is. --Bletch 12:19, 15 February 2006 (UTC)

perhaps there are more toxic plants in the eastern hemisphere. I do believe that there should be a citation to back up this claim, however.70.104.126.213 00:07, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

homeopathic remedies

I picked up a bottle of eye drops marketed as "Pink Eye Relief" made by Similason [1] in CVS today. One of the active ingredients is "Belladonna 6X" for "redness, burning", and the package is marked as being a homeopathic remedy ("an ingredient diluted to the level of 6X contains 0.0000001% of the active ingredient—just enough to jump start the immune system"). I'm including a line about it in the "Modern medecine" section with a link to Homeopathy. —alxndr (t) 04:00, 27 February 2006 (UTC)

I am altering this so that it doesn't imply that Belladonna is a treatment for pinkeye, only that Homeopathy claims it is. Not my leg 20:21, 24 August 2006 (UTC)

Hardy or not very hardy?

Deadly nightshade or belladonna (Atropa belladonna) is a well-known, hardy perennial shrub, a member of the nightshade family.

The Belladonna is not a very hardy perennial and will not tolerate transplantation.

Perhaps it means it's hardy in respect to climate and things like that but doesn't take being uprooted well? --86.135.245.203 16:07, 25 October 2007 (UTC)

Bill W.

I propose someone remove the text relating to Bill Wilson. If you read the actual source, you'll see quite clearly that he never claimed to have any kind of "belladonna" experience. Those words do not appear in his writings. Nor does a comparable description. I am suggesting this bit of (false) trivia has been added to Deadly Nightshade in error. It should removed. -Anon (Jun 2007)

Homeopathic

Information regarding "homeopathic" use of this plant requires reliable sources. Please don't include this information without such. Thanks! PouponOnToast (talk) 22:04, 20 January 2008 (UTC)

If the article for everything which can be used in homeopathy talks about homeopathy, millions of articles will talk about Homeopathy, which is a bit unbalanced, given that practically anything can be used in homeopathy. For example, if I am allergic to x, then, as I understand it, x can be used in a homeopathic cure. I think we should consider whether this information is important enough to put in the Homeopathy article itself, and it should be added there if it is. Stephen B Streater (talk) 22:14, 20 January 2008 (UTC)

I think we all need to get together to discuss what articles should have at least a mention of homeopathic use. Depending on where you live, we all know that countless homeopathic remedies sit on shelves or in medicine cabinets all over the world. Mere mention in an article would not be considered "undue weight" or "conflict of interest". As far as I am concerned I don't think that the indications for use should be mentioned. You won't find many docs who like the idea of people treating themselves based on what they have read online. Especially wikipedia. My official take is I think the "most used" (aka polychrest) remedies should have a brief passage along with their other pharmacologic/biologic/other use. I have no interest in discussing whether or not people think it works or how many controlled trials have been conducted. The simple truth is that people use it, and for that reason alone the information should be mentioned here.--travisthurston+ 02:04, 21 January 2008 (UTC)

I'm thinking along the lines that it should be mentioned if it is a significant use of the substance (compared with other uses). So I'd be looking for an independent reference which covered uses in general and gave significant weight to the use of this substance in homeopathy. So if 50% of all deadly nightshade is used in homeopathy, then it's in. But if 50% of homeopathy uses deadly nightshade, but only 0.00001% of deadly nightshade is used in homeopathy, then it's out. (Obviously allowing for dilutions!). Stephen B Streater (talk) 09:40, 21 January 2008 (UTC)

I'm not sure you've thought this through. Take iron, for example: iron is used in construction and is also important in biology. It stands to reason though that both can't involve more than 50% and so according to your argument we should exclude one from the "iron" article.Number48 (talk) 22:27, 21 January 2008 (UTC)

I don't think 50% is necessary - just sufficient. I've left the position of the necessary level open for debate, but suggest it is more than 0.00001%. Stephen B Streater (talk) 22:21, 22 January 2008 (UTC)

We are currently in discussion about starting a List of homeopathic remedies which would include the information in an appropriate location rather than on pages devoted to botany or chemistry. ScienceApologist (talk) 22:32, 21 January 2008 (UTC)

I believe I found some reliable sources for the information and have edited accordingly. -- Levine2112 ^discuss 23:52, 22 January 2008 (UTC)

A few more studies to consider:

[2]

[3]

[4]

[5]

Some of these say Belladonna as a homeopathic treatment is no better than placebo for certain conditions, others say it does have some validity for some certain conditions. -- Levine2112 ^discuss 00:54, 23 January 2008 (UTC)

FeloniousMonk reverted citing UNDUE and weak sources. Please describe how UNDUE applies and why PUBMED is considered a weak source. Thanks. -- Levine2112 ^discuss 06:01, 23 January 2008 (UTC)

Which of these say that homeopathy is a significant use of deadly nightshade? Stephen B Streater (talk) 07:08, 23 January 2008 (UTC)

Significance was not stated in the sentence which had been removed. However, the plethora of clinical studies does lend itself to the significance. -- Levine2112 ^discuss 08:01, 23 January 2008 (UTC)

Prominence needs to be established for inclusion of homeopathy on any page not directly related to homeopathy. This is part-and-partial to the WP:UNDUE guideline. ScienceApologist (talk) 15:31, 23 January 2008 (UTC)

Exactly. For example, many insignificant books mention deadly nightshade - which may be an important part of the plot - but these books don't deserve a mention here as the book is not prominent enough in the world of deadly nightshade. It is not enough just to quote the book and say it is not claiming to be an important use. I'm not saying that homeopathy isn't important, but I'd like to see an independent reference which says it is first. Stephen B Streater (talk) 20:25, 23 January 2008 (UTC)

That Deadly Nightshade is used as a homeopathic remedy is not a minority or fringe view. It is actually a very common ingredient in homeopathy and homeopathy is widely used throughout the world. That Deadly Nightshade is an effective homeopathic remedy may be a minority or fringe view; however, that is not the information being included. Sources such as those already provided and/or ones such as these should be sufficient: [6][7][8][9][10][11][12][13][14]. -- Levine2112 ^discuss 20:57, 23 January 2008 (UTC)

<unindent> Are you reading your sources or are you just sending us the results for a search like "deadly nightshade" homeopathy? Most of these hardly discuss either Homeopathy or don't mention Deadly Nightshade except in passing (or the humorous title). PouponOnToast (talk) 21:20, 23 January 2008 (UTC)

Incorrect. These sources all mention Deadly Nightshade with regards to being a homeopathic treatment. Please read past page one. The last link, a book entitled "Discovering Homeopathy: Medicine for the 21st Century" (14) even says that it is a common homeopathic remedy for acute ear infection. Plants for a Future's extensive database (13) states: "the entire plant, harvested when coming into flower, is used to make a homeopathic remedy. This is used especially in cases where there is localised and painful inflammation that radiates heat." A source from "Better Nutrition, April, 1996 by James F. Scheer" (12) states that it is a homeopathic remedy for bed-wetting and measles. The Oxford Book of Health Foods (11) mentions the various ailments belladonna is used to treat in homeopathy as well as discussing the lack of research to support these treatments. The source "The Family Homeopath" (10) uses Deadly Nightshade as a prime example of the basic homeopathic philosophy "like cures like". The Alternative Medicine Encyclopedia (9) says: "Belladonna is frequently prescribed homeopathic remedy used to treat illnesses that manifest symptoms similar to those that belladonna poisoning triggers." The Society of Homeopaths (8) use belladonna as the prime example example to also exemplify the basic principal of homeopathy. The New York Times article (7) is high profile and aside from just being used in the title of the article, deadly nightshad is also mentioned as a homeopathic remedy within the article itself. Plants for a Future (6) is an extensive database of rare and unusual plants and in its listed for belladonna, it discusses its various homeopathic uses. -- Levine2112 ^discuss 21:22, 23 January 2008 (UTC)

Sorry, are you saying you didn't find these sources by doing a google search for "deadly nightshade" homeopathy, and that you looked at them and found each of them to provide a unique and interesting piece of information for this article, and that each of them substantially mentions deadly nightshade, not just in the title or in passing, or by quoting another, different source? PouponOnToast (talk) 21:27, 23 January 2008 (UTC)

I did a Google search and I am telling you what each one says about Deadly Nightshade above. -- Levine2112 ^discuss 21:29, 23 January 2008 (UTC)

Thanks. I don't find that googlewarrioring for links typically adds value to an article. For instance, the new york times article uses "deadly nightshade" only to quote from a Homeopathic manual, and two of your sources are identical. PouponOnToast (talk) 21:31, 23 January 2008 (UTC)

Please address what each article says as I am outlining above. Thanks for the note about the repetitive link. Google searches can be extremely helpful. -- Levine2112 ^discuss 21:33, 23 January 2008 (UTC)

<unindent> That's why googlewarrioring isn't helpful. You only have to searchandlink, but I'm supposed to read every article you bring up and evaluate. That's not really in the spirit of collaboration. Why not point to a few mainstream sources that say Deadly Nightshade is a common homeopathic "thing" and we'll go from there. PouponOnToast (talk) 21:35, 23 January 2008 (UTC)

I have outlined what each link states about the topic. So you don't need to bring them up. "Mainstream" has nothing to do with this. We are not making a scientific statement about Belladonna in terms of homeopathy. We are only saying that it is used, and as some of the sources I linked to above state, its use is fairly common. -- Levine2112 ^discuss 21:44, 23 January 2008 (UTC)

I find unacceptable the use of googlewarrioring. If an editor in good faith is researching material for an article, using Google, Google Books, Questia, Lexi Nexis, or any other such online resource it should called research and accepted. If editors have concerns about the sources, they need to state what or why these sources are not acceptable. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 21:46, 23 January 2008 (UTC)

I apologize. It was a term descriptive of goolgle searching for something and then just pasting links for perusal. I'm happy to review links that have already been looked at by someone who supports their inclusion. PouponOnToast (talk) 21:50, 23 January 2008 (UTC)

Then please consider doing so with each of the links I detailed above and let me know if any of them are in your opinion acceptable to simply state that "Deadly Nightshade is used in homeopathic remedies to treat such-and-such." That's all. No science need be involved, supportive or non-supportive. This is an encyclopedia of human knowledge and this bit of knowledge about Deadly Nightshade is not mere trivia, especially given the relative ease I had in finding such sources. -- Levine2112 ^discuss 21:54, 23 January 2008 (UTC)

I really don't have the time to go through your links untill you do. If you could remove the duplicates and the ones where Deadly Nightshade is mentioned only in passing that would be great. PouponOnToast (talk) 22:03, 23 January 2008 (UTC)

Likewise, there's a lot requiring my attention at the moment, so I'll be specific in what I would consider a base standard. If an authoritative secondary source on deadly-nightshade states that one of it's major uses is homeopathy, then that would be appropriate evidence for me that it warrents a mention. Jefffire (talk) 22:06, 23 January 2008 (UTC)

Okay, let's start with Discovering Homeopathy: Medicine for the 21st Century which states that Deadly Nightshade is a commonly prescribed homeopathic remedy for acute ear infections. -- Levine2112 ^discuss 22:09, 23 January 2008 (UTC)

That is not an authoritative source for information about deadly nightshade. Jefffire (talk) 22:11, 23 January 2008 (UTC)

but it is an authoritative source for the use of deadly nightshade in homeopathy. Isn't that all that is required here? -- Levine2112 ^discuss 22:12, 23 January 2008 (UTC)

The use of deadly nightshade in homeopathy is not notable with respect to deadly nightshade, only with respect to homeopathy. PouponOnToast (talk) 22:15, 23 January 2008 (UTC)

Per WP:RS: Sources should be appropriate to the claims made. What's more appropriate here than a major book about homeopathy? Ps, please see WP:NNC. -- Levine2112 ^discuss 22:17, 23 January 2008 (UTC)

This is not an article on homeopathy. ScienceApologist (talk) 22:20, 23 January 2008 (UTC)

In fact, it is not a reliable source for anything - it mistates fact - "Homeopaths have also found g reat success in treating a wide variety of other bacterial infections," is not true, and cast doubts on the accuracy of the entire work. One rotten apple.PouponOnToast (talk) 22:15, 23 January 2008 (UTC)

That's the book's POV and is irrelevant to this discussion. -- Levine2112 ^discuss 22:17, 23 January 2008 (UTC)

That the book is factually completely wrong is, but that's academic to the current discussion. You're being asked to demonstrate that homeopathy is important to deadly nightshade, and thus warrant an inclusion in the article, not the other way round. To that end I ask for a source authoritative on deadly nightshade, for example a text book on the genus, which says that homeopathy is a major use of this plant. Jefffire (talk) 22:19, 23 January 2008 (UTC)

You are asking for something which is unlikely to exist... an entire textbook just about Deadly Nightshade. I don't understand why you are setting the bar so high. That's like saying in order to include that Sally from Nightmare Before Christmas uses Deadly Nightshade in the movie, we couldn't rely on the movie or on a book about the movie, but rather we would need it mentioned in a book only about Deadly Nightshade. And perhaps in that same book you might find a passage discussing Queen lyrics or else we can't say that Freddy Mercury says "belladonic haze" in Keep Yourself Alive. IOW, I think you are setting the bar a tad too high here (especially considering that most of this article is lacking in sources of any kind). What the source above demonstrates is that deadly nightshade plays a role in homeopathy. -- Levine2112 ^discuss 22:23, 23 January 2008 (UTC)

I don't like to beat people over the head with expert knowledge, but in the life-science it is generally common for there to be text books on single plant genera, especially the important ones. That was however just an example, a good text book on angiosperms for example would be acceptable as a source. Jefffire (talk) 22:29, 23 January 2008 (UTC)

I disagree. An authoritative book on Homeopathy which discusses its use of Deadly Nightshade or Belladonna is sufficient for including this information. Here are about 140 such books. Shall we take this to WP:RS/N or will you concede? -- Levine2112 ^discuss 22:31, 23 January 2008 (UTC)

Can you tell me how many other plants are mentioned in all these books? Jefffire (talk) 22:32, 23 January 2008 (UTC)

No. And why is that relevant? I have illustrated in at least one authoritative book on Homeopathy that indeed Deadly Nightshade is a common homeopathic prescription for specific common ailments (acute ear infections, measles, et cetera). -- Levine2112 ^discuss 22:35, 23 January 2008 (UTC)

Those books probably mention several thousand substances used in homeopathy, do they all deserve a mention in their articles? Jefffire (talk) 22:39, 23 January 2008 (UTC)

If they are commonly prescribed remedies for specific conditions, yes. -- Levine2112 ^discuss 22:41, 23 January 2008 (UTC)

That's an appropriate source for List of homeopathic remedies. However, per the principle of one way linking, it is inappropriate to link to homeopathy from pages that homeopaths believe are important because homeopaths are not reliable sources on other topics other than homeopathy. ScienceApologist (talk) 22:44, 23 January 2008 (UTC)