User talk:Desiphral

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Welcome!

Hello, Desiphral, and welcome to Wikipedia! Thank you for your contributions. I hope you like the place and decide to stay. Here are a few good links for newcomers:

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--millosh (talk (sr:)) 21:24, 18 December 2005 (UTC)

Two alphabet Wikipedias etc.

I am glad to see that Romany Wikipedia started. There are a lot of Roma people in Serbia and I am completely unsure about their language. It seems that it is Romano-Serbian language, but, as far as I know, there is not only one Roma language in Serbia... One of the projects of Wikimedia Serbia and Montenegro would be opening Romano-Serbian Wikipedia. Linguists started to work on that language and education begun; and we should help this project. --millosh (talk (sr:)) 21:24, 18 December 2005 (UTC)

We are in the phase of waiting for implementation for two alphabets and two standards Wikipedia (there would be four version of Serbian Wikipedia). You can see some of our results at http://conversion.vikipedija.org/. This version would allow us to write (only) in Cyrillic, but to have read-only Latin version, too. The next step is implementation of read-write version. --millosh (talk (sr:)) 21:24, 18 December 2005 (UTC)

In this moment we need some people who know PHP and want to help to the project (if you know someone, let me know). This is not Serbian specific problem, but I know that a lot of languages need the same. I think that Romany problem is not so big (Serbian has two axis and a list of exceptions...). You can send to me the conversion table for Romany and I would implement it very soon (but just in read-only version). Also, I need your language file (something like LanguageRom.php). My email is millosh@mutualaid.org. --millosh (talk (sr:)) 21:24, 18 December 2005 (UTC)

Even it is possible to write in both alphabets in this version (only local alphabet policy is saying what it should be), I would recommend to you to use only one alphabet (analyse what alphabet is more often and use it) until the implementation is full (i.e. read-write). Because the implementation of full version would be more easy. --millosh (talk (sr:)) 21:24, 18 December 2005 (UTC)

Feel free to ask me anything about the conversion. Also, I would like to get some help in understanding Roma languages/dialects. Because I am not sure that 500 years of different life can leave language(s) untouched. And all people should have Wikipedia in their native language. --millosh (talk (sr:)) 21:24, 18 December 2005 (UTC)

Redundant categories

You are adding a redundant category to a lot of "Cuisine of *" articles. For example, Category:Indian cuisine is a subcategory of Category:DEsi Cuisine, so if an article has Indian cuisine as a category, adding Category:Desi cuisine is redundant. Thanks. --Ragib 00:48, 8 February 2006 (UTC)

I agree. the desi cat is redundant.--Dangerous-Boy 07:41, 8 February 2006 (UTC)

India related links

	Links for Wikipedians interested in India content
Newcomers: Welcome kit | Register: Indian Wikipedians | Network: Noticeboard (WP:INWNB) Browse: India | Open tasks | Deletions Contribute content: Wikiportal India - Indian current events (WP:INCE) India collaboration of the week (WP:INCOTW) - Category adoptions

Pl. use edit summaries. --Gurubrahma 10:48, 8 February 2006 (UTC)

Category:Desi Jews

Hello Desiphral: Welcome to Wikipedia. You recently created Category:Desi Jews but there is no article or known description about what EXACTLY a "Desi Jew" actually is? I tried searching on Google and could find nothing! "Desi Jews" is not a known or used name and Wikipedia has a very firm rule against "original research" see Wikipedia:No original research and no neologisms. Please do not add this "category" or the name "Desi" to articles until you can clarify this matter further. If there is no solid explanation, then Category:Desi Jews will be nominated for deletion. Thanks for your cooperation, and I look forward to hearing from you soon. IZAK 10:58, 14 February 2006 (UTC)

Hello! I made the article Desi Jews. I see the term is not well known, so I wrote there what I know about this issue. Waiting for comments, Desiphral 00:46, 16 February 2006 (UTC)

Hi Desiphral: Thanks for the article, it has really helped. It does seem to be making some sense now. I have Wikified and edited the article a little. By the way, it would really help if you could find some online links and articles about "Desi Jews" and then add them as "Exernal links" to the article -- that will help remove the suspicion that this is only "original research" on your part. Thanks again, and enjoy Wikipedia. IZAK 05:39, 16 February 2006 (UTC)

I added some external links. As I wrote in the on-going discussion, the subject seems to be poorly covered. Thank you for your interest, Desiphral 02:13, 17 February 2006 (UTC)

piedmontese sinto - request for contact/info

Hi! I am currently working on the new pms wiki both as a sysop (as soon as I get appointed LOL) and community builder. One of the 5 historical languages of our region (along with piedmontese, arpitan, occitan and walser) is the language of the piedmontese sinto. All I know is that they exist, and that they all speak piedmontese, too. The few other bits I got are from [1]. I really wish I could get in contact with them, to ask them to nominate someone to tell their people story. I'd rate it stupid if it was us telling it, since they can tell it themselves. If you have no direct contact with them, then I will appreciate any data you could give me about them. I seem to understand that your languages are mutually understandable (I refer to the word "girl" only, as I said I have very little data). If so pls confirm, and I will add your edition in the friends and neighbours area. Thank you. NOTE, the direct link to my pms page is going to expire soon, since we are almost finished with the interface tranlastion, if the link gets broken just use the stable version, that will be working on the piedmontese interface. --Bertodsera 21:00, 29 March 2006 (UTC) pms:Utente:Bèrto_'d_Sèra Stable link will be pms:Utent:Bèrto_'d_Sèra.

Re: Desi

At least, Indian subcontinent is a more precise term than South Asia. I don't think South Indians, Afghans, Pashtuns and Baloochs are called Desi. Also note that Indian subcontinent is defined as the landmass lying south of the Himalayas, west of the Hindu-Kush and Baloochistan. Indian subcontinent is a much more broader term than Indian Plate and is the perfect term for the concerned topic. Also note that South Asia is a very confusing term. During the Cold War, all of Asia other than the Soviet Union was known as Southern Asia. And a person wouldn't be wrong if he includes Thailand as a part of South Asia because technically Thailand does lie in South Asia. --Spartian 15:22, 31 March 2006 (UTC)

So who said the term Indian subcontinent includes only the Republic of India? Indian subcontinent is a geographic term and South Asia is a political one. India is a historic term and Republic of India is political term. If you insist, go ahead and revert my edit. --Spartian 16:06, 31 March 2006 (UTC)

Re: Desi

P.S. I'd like to ask you if you want to make an article (stub) in the Chinese wiki (and if you can in Japanese) of the article Desi from English. Thanks! Desiphral 18:27, 5 April 2006 (UTC)

No problem - I will write one up shortly. -- Jose77, 22:33 Wednesday 5 April 2006 (UTC)

Done. [2] -- Jose77, 02:52 Thursday 6 April 2006 (UTC)

List of Roma people

I changed the listing for "Fanfare Ciocârlia" to "Fanfare Ciocărlia" because, regardless of whether it's correct Romanian or not, that's how the band spells their name--on their website, on all their albums, and on their promotional materials. The Wikipedia entry has been changed to Fanfare Ciocărlia also, so your reverting my change in List of Roma people creates a double redirect. -- Takwish 14:24, 10 June 2006 (UTC)

Hi--thanks for the reply on my talk page. I think their name may actually be incorrect Romanian, but this is, indeed, how the band consistently spells it. Their manager and producer, Henry Ernst, who is a German, actually came up with the name. According to this account (pdf), he did intend the meaning to be "lark's song," but, not being a native Romanian speaker, he could well have gotten the spelling wrong. My understanding (from online dictionaries) is that the word for lark or skylark in Romanian is ciocârlie. Is there a chance that the modified spelling ciocărlia could indicate a shift in meaning to something lke "lark's song" or "...of the lark"? Or do you think it's really just an error? Also, since you're a native Romanian speaker, would you mind taking a look at the entry itself? My sources for the spelling of the names of the band's members are inconsistent with respect to the diacritical marks. What's there now is my best guess. Does the spelling of those names appear to be reasonable? -- Takwish 15:08, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

Thanks! -- Takwish 16:30, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

Roma - Romany or Romani?

Your recently made a change to the spelling of "Romany" to "Romani" at the Turkish music article. My English dictionary gives it as "Romany" and it doesn't provide the alternate spelling you use - and ultimately people reading this may not understand that spelling to be referring to the Indic branch - if indeed your spelling isn't one recognised in the English language (which the article is written in). Can you provide me a link or dictionary that uses this spelling in English? Thanks. 193.201.128.141 21:11, 16 June 2006 (UTC)

I presented here this issue. Here you may find a dictionary entry for the Romani variant. Mostly, this is the variant that it is favoured by many Roma themselves. All the best, Desiphral 21:33, 16 June 2006 (UTC)

Thank you very much for your response and clearing that up. As you say if this preferred by the Roma themselves, then it is best to use that version, especially if it harks back to its original roots. 193.201.128.141 20:11, 18 June 2006 (UTC)

Question

Hi Desiphral,

I was wondering, how do you say "Transylvania" in Romani? (Specifically the spelling used by the Roma living in Transylvania) Thanks! —Khoikhoi 23:39, 19 June 2006 (UTC)

Aw man, I wanted to do it! :p Thanks. BTW, do most Roma write in Devanāgarī? —Khoikhoi 20:28, 20 June 2006 (UTC)

Well, you might want to have a look at WP:NPOV#Undue weight. If the majority of Romani speakers don't use Devanagari, you should present it like that. The page actually looks good to me, but just keep that policy in mind. —Khoikhoi 21:41, 21 June 2006 (UTC)

Roma population in Transylvania

Hi Desiphral,

Since it's you who added the Romani name to the Transylvania article, you might want to provide a link about the Roma population of Transylvania here for everyone's reference, and possibly add any additional arguments as to why the Romani name is relevant enough to mention it in the lead.

KissL 08:03, 26 June 2006 (UTC)

Transcription

I think transcribing palatalized t and d as त्य etc with a dot below is fine and logical. Cygnus_hansa 12:41, 2 August 2006 (UTC)

Another question

Hey Desiphral, I just noticed the Posha article today. Have you ever heard of them? I couldn't find much about them on Google books, perhaps they are known by another name? —Khoikhoi 08:22, 2 October 2006 (UTC)

Ok, I found some sources that might interest you:

• Gypsies and Tats in Armenia (source says their ethnonym is "Bosha")
• BOSHA - Gypsies in Armenia who call themselves LOM; speakers of Central Gypsy dialects (Armenian) (source contradicts the previous one, saying they call themselves "Lom") :-/
• Minority groups in Armenia
• Bosha gypsies live in Armenia and are to a great extent assimilated, use Armenian as their native language
• Prof. Jos Weitenberg from Leiden presented aspects of a lesser known Caucasian language, that of the Armenian Gypsies: the Loms or Bushas
• Sometimes, quite different names are applied to the same population (e.g. the Lom or Bosha)

That's the best I could find for now! —Khoikhoi 05:04, 6 October 2006 (UTC)

Translation

Hi, do you think you could add the Romani translation of the term "Muslim minority of Greece" to the article on the Muslim minority of Greece. Thanks.--Tekleni 17:13, 6 October 2006 (UTC)

OK -- Desiphral-देसीफ्राल 22:02, 6 October 2006 (UTC)

Thanks.--Tekleni 22:26, 6 October 2006 (UTC)

Spelling systems

Dear Desiphral, I see that you are very active on the Romani-related articles in the English Wikipedia and also in the Romani Vikipidiya, and first of all I want to congratulate you and thank you for your good work. Also, I have a few questions I think maybe you can help me with.

I would like to ask you about the background of the spelling used on the Romani Vikipidiya. I have been comparing quite a few websites in Romani and although there are several systems of spelling in use, I have not seen any that use the kind of system found on Vikipidiya. However, in the Manchester University Romani project website, there is a comparative spelling chart here which shows something close to the Vikipidiya spelling, in the column labelled "Email".

I see a few differences between this "email" spelling system and the Vikipidiya one, however, such as:

• "Email" ch = "Vikipidiya" ch or chh

I have not seen the spelling chh anywhere else at all; do others use this or is it only found on Vikipidiya?

Another important issue seems to be the question of using y where most (all, actually) the other systems use j. The advantage of this is that it allows you to use j where the other systems variously use zh, dz, dj etc. etc. But Vikipidiya is the only place where I have seen this use of y. So again I am interested in knowing if there are others following this practice, or it is only found in Vikipidiya.

I have noticed that the first versions of Vikipidiya used consonant diacritics before being changed to the present system with none.

I am curious about all this. My questions are these, more or less: (1) what was the story of the decision about spelling on Vikipidiya: who decided this and what were the reasons? (2) how widespread is use of the same system outside of Vikipidiya: how many people Romani write this way, who are they, and how do others feel about it (how much acceptance is there)? (3) does the use of this system raise any serious problems (for example, are parts of the Romani community likely to reject things written this way, is it controversial, or will people say it isn't "real Romani" if the system isn't used by enough people)?

I hope you can help satisfy my curiosity and that you don't mind my asking you these questions, which I ask because I would like to form a clearer picture of the present-day reality of Romani and the Romani language movement. Thanks, --A R King 08:37, 13 December 2006 (UTC)

Thanks for your response on my user talk page. I have replied to you there. Alan --A R King 16:10, 13 December 2006 (UTC)

When you have time, I have written another question for you about Romani on my user talk page. cheers, --A R King 14:41, 14 December 2006 (UTC)

Hi

Hi Desiphral...

I've just come across some of ur contribs.. Are you an actual Roma? अमेय आर्यन DaBrood^© 15:59, 23 December 2006 (UTC)

Hey Desi,

I'd asssumed you were a Punjabi (given ur username)! Anyways i've seen you use word Desi when referring to Indians (as understood in pre-1948 context). Well Desi is a vague, non-academic and informal term. For one there is no real feeling of kinship amongst Indians & Pakistanis abroad. Here in UK, term Desi is generally reserved for British Indians, i havent really seen any Pakistani refer to himself as Desi.

As for Roma article, i'm aware of vandalisms esp by Poles! Its under my watch list...

Lastly, its nice to come across a Rom! We hardly have that many in UK. How did you come about learning Devnagri. Is there a substantial use of Devnagri by Roms? अमेय आर्यन DaBrood^© 11:28, 24 December 2006 (UTC)

Lo' Sorry for taking this long to get back to you... I'm on a vacation actually. I can understand Roma being ashamed of being labelled 'Indian' given the amount of racism that is soo mainstream in Eastern Europe. Actually most Indians in India dont even know about Roma. I was blissfully ignorant of their Indian connection until i came across a Rom cabbbie in Budapest. Anyways in Western Europe India isnt regarded all caste, cows and kamasutra these days (see India as an emerging superpower ). Anyways my point is Desi isnt a academic term. Indian, to be frank, is most popular term for pre-1947 South Asians!

As for Punjabi i can speak just a lil' bit. I'm a native speaker of Marathi and Sindhi. Still "phral" sounds like a Punjabi word to my ears! If you need any info feel free to ask. I'll be not that active till March, but still I can help you out on Roma articles... I'm taking a break from editing Indian articles... Its getting stressful given all the stupid India-Pakistan dick-size comparision contests going around on Wikipedia! अमेय आर्यन DaBrood^© 20:21, 27 December 2006 (UTC)

Orphaned fair use image (Image:Juhi Chawla.jpg)

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Lyuli and racism

Hi! As you had understood the article was first created by me. How do you thing, can a racist do it? As for Moscow, I absolutely support your idea to add some images of beggers or far-right skin-head, beating immigrants, as it frequently occurs in Moscow, but this images will be deleted by Moscovites... So, I can't understan, what is the sence of racism in this image? Begging is common for many Lyuli immigrants in Russia, and there is no racism in this fact. As for me, I always try ho support Lyulis if they beg. Hovewer I hate Moscovites. --Üñţïf̣ļëŗ (see also:ә? Ә!) 15:38, 12 February 2007 (UTC)

So, I'm happy that you had understood that I'm not a racist. As for me, I'm of both, Tatar and Russian heritage, the ethnic groups consisting the majority of my native city. And a interethnic tolerance is one of Kazan's features. It takes a place not only between Tatars, Russians or other local ethnic group, but also for all post-Soviet emigrees, who actually Lyuli are. So, as for the image, I hope you will check the caption to make it neutral as possible. There is no another PD images, envincing the living of Lyuli in Russia and their extremally low living standard. You may simplify the caption to Lyuli woman with child in Kazan, Russia. So, happy edits, regards, --Üñţïf̣ļëŗ (see also:ә? Ә!) 14:33, 13 February 2007 (UTC)

Numărul romilor din România

Salut! Cred că pagina Roma people este bună cum este acum: ambele date sunt incluse (recensământul şi estimările UNDP). În altă ordine de idei, am creat trei cutiuţe la ro.wp pentru utilizatori romi: ro:Format:Utilizator etnie romă, ro:Format:Utilizator mândru rom şi ro:Format:Utilizator drepturile romilor. Acestea se pot folosi pe paginile de utilizator. Încă o întrebare: cum s-ar traduce "Decade of Roma Inclusion" în romani? Mulţumesc, Ronline ✉ 05:50, 28 February 2007 (UTC)

Image:ShabanaAzmi.png

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Thanks for pointing out, let me see what is to be done. Desiphral-देसीफ्राल 10:41, 28 March 2007 (UTC)

License tagging for Image:Ajay&Rani(ChoriChori).jpg

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RFC/USER discussion concerning you (Desiphral)

Hello, Desiphral. Please be aware that a request for comments has been filed concerning your conduct on Wikipedia. The RFC entry can be found by your name in this list, and the actual discussion can be found at [[Wikipedia:Requests for comment/DesiphralTemplate:Highrfc-loop]], where you may want to participate.

-- Miskwito 22:30, 7 April 2007 (UTC)

Desiphral, please respond to this. I see you're still editing the Romani Wikipedia, so it's not like you've suddenly vanished. You can't avoid addressing this. --Miskwito 22:56, 14 April 2007 (UTC)

You continue to edit the Romani Wikipedia, but you still haven't responded. Please do. --Miskwito 21:05, 16 April 2007 (UTC)

Again, Desiphral, this will not just go away if you ignore it. Please respond to my queries on the RfC page. Dewrad 23:22, 28 April 2007 (UTC)

Image:Romanigirls(Greece).jpg listed for deletion

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Jews in the Indian Subcontinent, etc.

Hi, Desiphral! Actually, on the Romani People talk page, I also was referring to Indian (in particular, Malayalee) discrimination. Since I no longer remember when one Jew or more may have suffered discrimination in Kerala (or in the Indian Subcontinent), I also can't tell whether or not Hindus specifically discriminated against them.

Anyway, on a lighter note: Are you a Vlax Rrom? Or do you not belong to any particular group, like Prof. Hancock who is part Romungro and part Romanichal? Just asking out of curiosity. --Kuaichik 21:35, 14 May 2007 (UTC)

Quick point

Hi. I have a small comment to make: when adding categories to articles on people, please don't forget to sort them by family name. This is done either by adding {{DEFAULTSORT:"Family Name", "First Name"}} (as in {{DEFAULTSORT:Grigore, Delia}}) right above the categories or by adding, in each category, "|"Family Name", "First Name"" (as in [[Category:Romani activists|Grigore, Delia]]). In categories, people with then be sorted under their family name, not under the first letter of the article title (Delia Grigore is under G, otherwise she would be under D). Thanks and happy editing. Dahn 19:38, 16 May 2007 (UTC)

Yep, thanks for pointing out, in fact I am aware of it, just I wanted to reorganize rapidly some dozens of articles about Romani individuals, to update the categories from Roma to Romani (the correct adjective). Where there was not the sorting, I did not add it either, I was focused on recategorization. Anyway, thanks again, Desiphral-देसीफ्राल 19:47, 16 May 2007 (UTC)

No prob, and sorry for assuming. It's nice working with you. Btw, I caught a glimpse of your dialog with those two Romanian contributors on Talk:Roma people, and I am really sorry that they subjected you to such abuse - I would like to contribute more on Roma-related articles and NPOV the presently-awful Roma minority in Romania article; perhaps we could collaborate on that in the future (I am currently tangled up in many other articles). Dahn 20:11, 16 May 2007 (UTC)

No prob, too. About Roma minority in Romania, until now I stood away from it, since I have already some experience of this kind, when I got involved before in varous edit or talk wars, me against more users, waisting my time for nothing. Now, my focus is on gathering external sources to support what I know about the Romani reality (culture, lifestlye and so on) and to organize it, so that nobody could say I don't write the truth (since there is enough available stuff that present a Gypsist view to support a racist opinion). Probably in a month or so, I'll come out with more info. And, of course, your collaboration is very welcomed :) Desiphral-देसीफ्राल 20:37, 16 May 2007 (UTC)

Great. I'm moving this closer to the top of my priority list. Dahn 20:42, 16 May 2007 (UTC)

About Pann, I have answered on the talk page there. Sorry about my last edit on Delia Grigore (I simply didn't notice the first link - it came straight after the celebrated homonym¹ and the word appeared twice in the same sentence). Dahn 11:27, 18 May 2007 (UTC)

---

¹I know some Romanian chauvinists who would be really pissed off by this comment ;)

Hm. While I know next to nothing about Ţiganiada and the statement you mention, the issue appears to be a thorny one. In a sense, if the mention is made, they would both still be Romanian, and in the ethnic sense, by adoption and by culture (or rather, Romanians as well). On the other hand, I would not place too much emphasis on this - for example, Budai-Deleanu had little cause to speak in Maior's name. In addition, most Polish noblemen of the 17th century believed they were Sarmatians, so the question may be just one of symbolics (I honestly don't know). If we should come to discuss this matter in the future, my prima facie proposal would be to quote the said statement and, based on it, include Budai-Deleanu in the Romani cats (keeping him in the others as well), since he made the statement for himself, and indicate in the article on Maior that his origin was given as such, without deciding on it. For example, Noti Constantinide said that Nicolae Petrescu-Comnen was a Rom, but this cannot be verified and was never stated by Petrescu himself (in fact, Petrescu stated that he was Byzantine aristocracy, but that is just spurious). The issue of cats involving their actual Habsburg citizenship and relation to their ethnicity/culture is the real can of worms, because we have no clear guidelines on what to do with people of that period; but that is another matter altogether. Dahn 12:04, 18 May 2007 (UTC)

I think "society" is a bit vague, and it seems that such topics are not grouped under that umbrella. I think "history" covers the meaning, and is also helped by the precedent. Although I'm not married to this idea, I think it is best to follow a pattern. Dahn 12:08, 18 May 2007 (UTC)

A bit complicated (I tend to dislike creating separate cats that potentially overlapping content), but I do not object to your system. Do you also agree that categories on musical bands etc. (i.e. those not specifically biographical) should be moved from the narrower to the larger level once this is accomplished? Dahn 12:37, 18 May 2007 (UTC)

Fair enough. My point about the bands was in relation to, say, Taraful Haiducilor. If we apply the system we agreed upon, it would be better included in the "Romani people and Romanipen in Romania" cat as such than subcategorized under the narrower "People". Per precedents, the latter would be reserved for articles on individuals, and we can thus streamline the various levels. (Of course, we could then have a subcat of "Romani people and Romanipen in Romania" for Roma music in Romania.) Do you agree? Dahn 12:50, 18 May 2007 (UTC)

Cool. About the adjective: I was not really wondering as much as I was unsure about which one was the norm (especially since both were around). Please see my last posts at Talk:Anton Pann, where I try to indicate a possible compromise. Dahn 19:04, 18 May 2007 (UTC)

License tagging for Image:Kanda&Maki&Miyata trio.jpg

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Roma series template

Hi. I have made a template that brings together the main articles about the Romani people on Wikipedia: Template:Roma series. This is mirrored on other ethnic group articles, such as Template:Serbs and Template:Albanians. Ronline ✉ 05:28, 20 May 2007 (UTC)

Samudaripen...?

Te aves baxtalo, (Desi)phrala! Vorta, "Samudaripen" si jekh Rromano svato? Me ginem ke si ferdi jekh svato, ke jekh gadžo kerdja.

(See the Porrajmos Talk Page)

A translation/clarification of the above, since probably my Romani is terrible (or otherwise incomprehensible) and the orthography may be hard to read: "Hi ("May you (be)come 'lucky'"), Desiphral! Is samudaripen really a Romani word? I think it's just a word that a gadžo made up (i.e. invented)." :) --Kuaichik 04:22, 22 May 2007 (UTC)

Well, I think Time of the Gypsies is rather interesting in spite of its blatant inaccuracies (magic, flying fork, etc.). Certainly it isn't as accurate a description of the Romani people as Tony Gatlif's films. But to the clueless gadžo, it can at least give the impression that "gypsies" are not all inherently thieves, etc. Clearly the main character Perhan tries very hard not to become a robber, to take care of his sister, etc. but has no choice.

Plus, the film stresses parts of Rromanipen/Rromanija, in particular prikaza. (Many of the characters suffer for breaking parts of Romani law, e.g. Perhan loses all the money he steals in a storm. Also, Perhan's grandmother Hatidza scolds him for continuing to steal, apparently even disowning him (temporarily)).

Anyway, sorry for the unnecessary detail in the last two paragraphs. I took a class with Prof. Hancock last year (Fall 2006), and as part of that class, I wrote a review of the movie. --Kuaichik 17:17, 22 May 2007 (UTC)

But Time of the Gypsies was popular in the Romani community! See? --Kuaichik 16:40, 23 May 2007 (UTC)

Or at least it seems to have been well received in Romani communities. I certainly could be wrong.

I thought (originally at least) that, to most Romanies, Time of the Gypsies was more like what Bollywood movies are to most Indians. Everyone in the community knows that the overall situation in these movies is unrealistic, and in fact, the reason why it's popular is precisely because it's unrealistic enough without being too stereotypical. Most people (of any ethnicity) seem to look for an escape from reality, not for an objective presentation of it. --Kuaichik 16:49, 23 May 2007 (UTC)

Sorry for taking so long to reply. Somehow my think gadžikano skull (well, at least sort of gadžikano!) doesn't seem to fully understand what you say. But I have decided that you would know better than me what Romanies generally think, so I think I will trust your judgment.

By the way, might this be the paper at ERRC you mentioned earlier? The one about the Romanies' response to Gadjo Dilo? --Kuaichik 05:42, 26 May 2007 (UTC)

Don't worry, when I said "my thick gadžikano skull doesn't seem to fully understand," I didn't mean the color comparison. I just meant the general argument that these films harmfully misrepresent the Romani people. You can still use the comparison you used; it's fine, really! :)

I can believe that many Romanies are strongly influenced by the "gypsy" stereotype. I think this is what Prof. Hancock calls "internalization of the stereotype," although he also uses this to refer to Romanies who intentionally make gadže think "gypsies" really are the way most gadže think (in the hope that the intruding gadže will be satisfied with this answer and leave them and their culture alone).

I think that films like Time of the Gypsies allow gadže to interpret Romani life however they wish. Some (especially those who are more free-thinking) get a positive impression, some (usually more conservative) get a negative impression. For example, you might think that scenes of eastern European Romanies drinking (e.g. Ahmed dancing crudely with a beer bottle) would give a negative impression, i.e. that Romanies drink regularly (as opposed to the local gadže). But then you have gadže like my dad who think that eastern Europeans generally drink a lot and that it is no surprise that the local Roma should, too. To them, even the negative images you mention seem "only human," rather than dehumanizing.

Still, I do agree with you somewhat. I can't think of a single Romani film director (I would have thought Tony Gatlif was, but I guess he's only of Romani descent). I presume that it is because Romanies are not as powerful and (probably) can't generally afford to make films.

So, if I understand correctly, you think the films made by non-Romanies are more like the British colonizers' imperialist descriptions of us Desis, or like John Irving's equally ridiculous novel A Son of the Circus. (Of course, Irving actually admits that he isn't portraying India as it really is.) --Kuaichik 18:50, 28 May 2007 (UTC)

Fair use rationale for Image:Ceausesculosingpower.jpg

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Thanks for pointing out, I added a fair use rationale. Desiphral-देसीफ्राल 08:59, 28 May 2007 (UTC)

Disruptive Edits

Looking at the category of Populations with mixed ancestry, it is clear that the Gypsies fit that description. I feel that your own personal feelings, possibly as a result of misinformation, or a lack thereof, pertaining to your own heritage, is resulting in you trying to remove and deny perfectly legitimate information. I think that you know full well the difference between a purebred race and a mixed race. I, personally, have traced my family back to the Norman conquest of the ten hundreds, ie over 1000 years ago. When my family name first came into existance (prior to that, there were no surnames in Britain.) It then becomes very obvious that only one blood runs through my veins, whereas with the Gypsies, there are bits of Hindu, muslim, negro, mongol, white, rumanian, and the list goes on. When it is so easily shown, even in recent history, that there has been race mixing, I feel it is an injustice not to include the category. --Hayden5650 11:43, 29 May 2007 (UTC)

First of all you mistook the article you edit. It's about Romani people, not Gypsies. Also, be sure you have too mixed ancestry. When the Indo-Europeans arrived in Europe from contemporary Kazakhstan-Ukraine the continent was already inhabited for millenia. Plus the recent studies about an possible addition of genes from the Neanderthal man in the contemporary people from Europe. This category is currently listed for deletion, you may check the reasons at Wikipedia:Categories_for_discussion/Log/2007_May_28#Category:Population_groups_of_mixed_ancestry. This is similar to a supposed Category:Population groups living on Planet Earth. I would have nothing against a more focused Category:Population groups defined by mixed ancestry, like the Mestizos, Mullatos, Griqua, Cafuzos and others (which certainly would not fit the Roma or the Jews, because the only identification is cultural). Desiphral-देसीफ्राल 11:50, 29 May 2007 (UTC)

There may be less controversy in the next (or existing) category if they give the negroes a category of their own, so the better part of the list isn't filled with afro-this and afro-that. I don't really get why there is any controversy, it's probably left wing American driven. There is no doubt thought that Gypsies are mixed. There is a great difference between evolution and mixing, as if the last time my race mixed was when neanderthals walked the earth, then I feel quite safe to say I won't be losing any sleep over it. When people speak of races, these races are really what has been defined in the last few 1000 years, not few 10,000 or 100,000 years. --Hayden5650 12:03, 29 May 2007 (UTC)

I don't agree that Romanies are of mixed ancestry, and it's not because of my heritage. Nevertheless, I hesitate to elaborate. Somehow, I'm afraid I might do more harm than good by saying any more. --Kuaichik 14:01, 29 May 2007 (UTC)

No, it's no harm. In fact, most of the info regarding this issue is presented already at Talk:Romani_people#Relation_with_other_people. As I wrote at the deletion log for this category, every ethnic group is mixed. I would just see reason for a category that would select the people who self-identify as mixed ancestry and construct their identity by comparing themselves to other supposed pure groups. A category that would note the social self-identification, the only possible reason to make selections in this field. And obviously it would not comprise the Romanies or the Jews, because in these cases the culture is the main identity mark, they do not compare to the others saying we are not pure like them to construct an identity. About the claim that being British means being pure race, I just remembered that a recent study presented at BBC revealed that one in ten British has a different father than that from the birth certificate. Or the fact that the Queen has African and Arab ancestors (from a marriage some generations ago with the Royal House of Portugal). Desiphral-देसीफ्राल 14:22, 29 May 2007 (UTC)

Why on Earth would I list British as being mixed? We are purebred, for 1000s of years. It's not like my people walked across Asia and through Europe, mixing all the way as did the Gypsies. Be proud of who you are, stop the selfhating. --Hayden5650 12:31, 30 May 2007 (UTC)

You don't have to walk across two continents just to be a mixed ethnic group. The British royal family is unusually strict about who to marry, and even they have African, Arab, and Portuguese ancestors. If even the royal family is not "purebred" as you call it, just imagine how much less "purebred" other (relatively less selective) British are!

Also, I'm proud of who I am, and I'm quite certain Desiphral is proud of who he is, too. If I may say so, he's making a great effort to inform others about his generally misunderstood people and about what they think. --Kuaichik 15:29, 31 May 2007 (UTC)

In fact, some months ago there was a documentary named 100% English, where 8 well known persons, convinced they were 100% English, took the DNA tests. All of them, except one, had also non-Nordic European ancestors. Among them the daughter of Margaret Thatcher, with about a quarter Middle Eastern DNA, or a journalist with 7% African DNA. The biggest problem was caused when a blonde lady, who militated for the assertion of the English nation, was found with South Asian Romani specific DNA. She threatened to sue Channel 4, if they publish the fact, but with no avail. Desiphral-देसीफ्राल 19:56, 31 May 2007 (UTC)

About the "self-hating" issue, I think it is self-understood my position. As far as I know, self-hating people try to hide the real ethnicity, its specific expression or to talk bad about their own people. The work for the presentation of the real Roma is just proudly claiming the right place in the public sphere. If it may obliterate for some people the Gypsy image they grew up with, making them to imagine some self-hating Gypsies who destroy their Gypsiness, then I think it is the time to open the eyes and accept that the Gypsies are as real as Santa Claus, they are a part (that should be abandoned) of the non-Romani culture, depriving the Roma of the right place in the broad society. Desiphral-देसीफ्राल 20:43, 31 May 2007 (UTC)

Just to clarify for Hayden: note that in the end of the above comment, Desiphral is saying that the Gypsies imagined by non-Romanies, not the Roma in real life, are merely a figment of imagination ("as real as Santa Claus"). --Kuaichik 02:13, 1 June 2007 (UTC)

Thanks for clarification. Also, in the concourse of events of the last days, I forgot to tell you that your presentation of the reasons of not considering Romani people as mixed is better focused. And I have to stress again that the presence of Nazi aficionado users is inacceptable. Such behavior is considered as a crime in most countries, why should it be accepted at Wikipedia? Desiphral-देसीफ्राल 08:53, 1 June 2007 (UTC)

Because there is no censorship on Wikipedia, and your being extremely discriminatory yourself. --Hayden5650 14:34, 1 June 2007 (UTC)

Najis tuke, phrala! But I must admit, I am a bit confused. Why is Hayden necessarily a "Nazi aficionado"? In fact, although his last comment on the Romani people talk page was quite offensive, don't you think it suggests that he is not a Nazi aficionado? To me, he just seems like another gadžo who knows little or nothing about the Romani people beyond the "Gypsy" stereotype. --Kuaichik 21:46, 1 June 2007 (UTC)

Phrala, my opinion appeared after witnessing and further checking his edits, starting some weeks back [5], when this user began to edit also Romani articles. This user expressed acceptance and sympathy for the Nazi ideology, followed its usual hotpoints in his usual disruptive edits (most of the edits, not only those Romani related). In most of the democratic countries, this would have been considered as Nazi sympathization, and punished as such. For me, it is not only the fact that this user knows little or nothing about the Romani people, but mainly the fact of the presentation of the Nazism as something normal, every time checking and pushing the limits with all kinds of half-expressions, like "euthanasia of Jews" and many others, which should not be accepted. Nazism, as a normal ideology, must not be accepted in the public space. And, as the time passed, the status of this user became more established. The comparison with A. Hitler, for me, is obviously just checking and pushing the limits again. It is a common behavior of such people in countries where their ideas are banned. It derives from the context. Although the laws may be the similalry tough in these countries, their application differs, depending on the will of the local authorities to apply them. Just to remember the extreme right-parties. Although many countries officially prohibit such ideologies, in fact, in some countries, their parties are accepted, in others not, they are banned right away. They may reappear with another name, they may be banned again, but overall, they don't accede to the status of normality. And, as I made the presentation of Dillmann’s Zigeuner-Buch at Romani people#Contemporary issues, such things, if left unchecked (as long as the Gypsy image steals the place of the Roma from the broad society), they use to preced the anti-Romani violence. This is my opinion. I'd like to know further your opinion about this. Thanks, Desiphral-देसीफ्राल 18:58, 2 June 2007 (UTC)

Oh, definitely, I agree. By the way, I just noticed several of Hayden's other edits and have continued the discussion here. There are many more I haven't mentioned yet, and I think many of his edits would be construed as vandalism.

Sorry it took me so long to notice these edits as well. Now, where is the admin I was going to contact? --Kuaichik 00:28, 3 June 2007 (UTC)

Thanks a lot. Again your better focus solved the problem (I saw that in the meantime another admin rebloked him). The fact is that a "never again" policy must be enforced. Desiphral-देसीफ्राल 09:28, 3 June 2007 (UTC)

Indeed it must be enforced, but what can we do? Looks like we've got one down and one more to go. Since the category is going to be deleted soon anyway, I wonder whether we should just let users go crazy until it gets deleted (as Latebird had proposed at the end of this discussion with Relir)? --Kuaichik 23:21, 3 June 2007 (UTC)

I don't think this user has a problem with the existence of the Romani people, just wants to use the Romani name for populating that category, thus stressing on mixing and regional variations, which in fact appear in any ethnic group. And indeed, in this case, waiting for the imminent deletion is appropriate. Desiphral-देसीफ्राल 11:36, 4 June 2007 (UTC)

Awards

		The Original Barnstar
		I hereby award this barnstar to Desiphral for his contributions to Romani-related articles. Great job! --Kuaichik 00:24, 5 June 2007 (UTC)

		The Editor's Barnstar
		This editor's barnstar goes to Desiphral for his revisions on, and edits to, Romani- and Desi-related articles, including (but not at all limited to) images and misinformation. --Kuaichik 00:24, 5 June 2007 (UTC)

		The Working Man's Barnstar
		To Desiphral for the hard work and perseverance he has dedicated to articles concerning the Romani people. --Kuaichik 00:24, 5 June 2007 (UTC)

		The RickK Anti-Vandalism Barnstar
		For Desiphral's tireless efforts to prevent vandalism on Romani people, and probably related articles as well. Opre Rroma! --Kuaichik 00:24, 5 June 2007 (UTC)

A collection of well-deserved awards. By the way, are you the only eastern European Romani editor on Wikipedia? Unless Ronline is a Rrom (and I doubt that he is), it looks like all (or nearly all) other editors on the Romani Wikipedia speak only Romanian! (Or at least, they don't seem to speak Romani). --Kuaichik 00:24, 5 June 2007 (UTC)

Yes, I noticed the Romanian words on the Romani Wikipedia before. Especially the fact that if you want to edit versions of an article, your two options are modificǎ and anuleazǎ! And you have to edit versiuni, not (substitute Romani equivalent of versiuni here)! :) --Kuaichik 01:05, 6 June 2007 (UTC)

My advice

Hi, I really just acted on the AN/I situation, but you've taken the best course of action by going to checkuser. Unfortunately as an admin I can't see what IP he's coming from (in effect I'm just a user with a few more tools like (un)blocking users, (un)deleting articles etc), like you I'm restricted to logical deduction that the person may have, for example, the same style and pattern and come from the same location and so could well be the same person, and with more evidence form a more sound/clear conclusion that it probably is, or likely isn't. (Often it's not terribly hard as the sort of people that do this are terribly consistent and are so motivated by their agenda that they'll pick up where they left off last time.) This is how we had to deal with DavidYork71 until we got the checkuser confirmation and ban - reading that checkuser and related documents wouldn't go astray. It should be noted that checkuser are a bit loath to link IPs to usernames, but still worth putting in anyway as they will give some indication most likely. Orderinchaos 16:49, 6 June 2007 (UTC)

Hey! I was wondering about that, too! There is a link from Hayden's discussion page to an IP address he used; I don't know whether he uses any others or not. I looked at the "IP info" for both that address he used and the first address you mentioned to Orderinchaos (202.124.103.146). I hope I didn't do something wrong in doing so, but somehow I think that IP address might not be Hayden. Anyway, there's every possibility that I'm wrong. --Kuaichik 23:56, 6 June 2007 (UTC)

He's used at least three different ranges. Waitaki (the 202.* one) is a govt one so likely to be a work address. Orderinchaos 02:04, 7 June 2007 (UTC)

By the way, do you think we can get that "Mixed ancestry" category deleted now? It's been up for more than five days, and the consensus is to delete the article. The "delete" votes win 18 to 5! --Kuaichik 00:38, 7 June 2007 (UTC)

I voted on it so can't close it - however I see in the meantime someone already has. Orderinchaos 02:06, 7 June 2007 (UTC)

Help needed with script

Could you please help with this request seeing that you are quite adept at using Devanagari script. Haphar 11:37, 8 June 2007 (UTC)

Hi, I added it, Desiphral-देसीफ्राल 12:35, 8 June 2007 (UTC)

Prof. Ian Hancock

I think there's a ton of information I could add about him, but I'll have to do it one step at a time. He's currently writing a book (or some kind of work to be published) called On Romani Origins and Identity. Do you think I could include that information in the article and cite the work itself? (I have one version of it right here.) --Kuaichik 00:19, 9 June 2007 (UTC)

Najis tuke again! Yes, it's basically an updated version of the first of those two papers. In the updated version I have, he includes (among other things of course) a reference to a paper I wrote for his Romani Studies class(!!!) :) --Kuaichik 23:10, 9 June 2007 (UTC)

By the way, I've added some things to the article. Could you please look over what I added and see if it's OK? If it is, do you think we can remove the "stub" templates at the bottom of the page now? --Kuaichik 01:43, 10 June 2007 (UTC)

Yikes!

What's he doing here? Now he's vandalized another article! [6] --Kuaichik 21:18, 10 June 2007 (UTC)

Oh, my goodness! Thank you so much! How do you say that in Romani? But najis tuke, or something else entirely? --Kuaichik 18:34, 12 June 2007 (UTC)

Ohh, OK, that makes a lot of sense. Najis tuke but. (And I didn't switch to Devanagari, but this is mainly because I'm still unable to use Indic fonts on my computer!! Oh, well. I'll probably have to get it replaced soon, anyway.) :) --Kuaichik 19:25, 12 June 2007 (UTC)

Theories (if included) - Part of "Published works" or a separate section altogether?

I have been looking for things to include in the current Ian Hancock article. I was thinking of expanding the "Published works" section by mentioning his ideas on Romani Studies (e.g. his support of Turner in the view that the Dom, Lom, and Rom left India in completely separate migrations; his opinion that the Roma didn't come from any one specific part of India; etc., etc.).

Do you think it would be OK to include this under that section ("Published works"), or should it be under a new section "Theories" or something? Or should it not be included at all? --Kuaichik 17:26, 14 June 2007 (UTC)

Done. [7] I'll put up more information later. I just want to enter enough of it in some organized fashion. --Kuaichik 23:23, 14 June 2007 (UTC)

Sastipen!

Glad to meet you! Right now I'm busy making a list of famous Gypsies and articles about them in ru.wikipedia (they say my articles are pretty good) and I would like later to translate them into English and place here :) Maybe sometimes I will need help... RomanyChaj

Dom people

hi Desiphral. Yes i certanly think I have confuesd between ethnic groups alittle, can you please tell me who this people are really?. I dont understand it from the Article and never heard of them in the middleast or any other Arab country, i thought they whrer the Qawlia in Iraq but they are not, so please if you got time to tell me? (: btw are they not the same as Roma? thanks.Balu2000 10:05, 15 June 2007 (UTC)

Hi again an thank you fr this information, it was very usefull, yes i thin the qawlia are the name for the Dom people in Iraq, but they got thier own article on wikipedia http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qawliya, but there are also a another group wich are not a nomadic desi/roma/dom group in Iraq, but i don't know what they are called hehe, thanks Balu2000 10:27, 15 June 2007 (UTC)

Yes. they are called Shrug, but that is an Arabic term, i don't know the English term for this people, i want to create an article but don't know the name or should I just use the Arabic term?Balu2000 10:34, 15 June 2007 (UTC)

Yes, tehy don't like the name, because they consider themselfs as Arabs like the Maronites in Lebanon and Copts in Egypt and even Berebrs in morocco, They have adoptet the Arabic language and probely the islamic religon as well. but throughout Iraq they are not known as arabs, yes they are the decentants of Indian orgin.Balu2000 11:07, 15 June 2007 (UTC)

I am also sure that many Dom/Roma people in Middleast call themselfs as Arabs aswell.Balu2000 11:11, 15 June 2007 (UTC)

Ralph Lilley(?) Turner

Could this guy be the same as the scholar by the name of Ralph Turner, who wrote articles for the Journal of the Gypsy Lore Society in the early 20th century? The Ralph Turner I'm thinking of wrote such papers as "The Position of Romani in Indo-Aryan."

Some results here seem to suggest that they are indeed the same person. Any ideas? I'd like to know if possible because, by Prof. Hancock's own admission, many of Turner's views are similar to his own. --Kuaichik 23:49, 17 June 2007 (UTC)

Edit summaries

Hello. Please don't forget to provide an edit summary. Thank you. —Psychonaut 14:24, 19 June 2007 (UTC)

Probably after creating a POV racist article about the "Gypsy" image, now you imagine yourself also as civilizer of the "Gypsies". Except the first newbie months I have about or over 85% edits with summaries, a fairly high rate even for a request for adminship. I don't use to make edit summaries at discussion pages because anyway interested people will need to read what I wrote (and many old users agree with it). I make edit summaries in these cases only when it is necessary (like deleting previous talk or other edits that require explanation). The edits of the articles themselves are summarized. Desiphral-देसीफ्राल 14:48, 19 June 2007 (UTC)