Talk:Kiddush levana

"Blessing" vs. "Sanctification" & the definite article in Hebrew

The interwiki link is to the page for ברכת הלבנה in the Hebrew Wikipedia. Note that it relates to the prayer (תפילה) or literally, "blessing" of the [new] moon, while this page is for the "ritual" consisting of "a series of prayers." Why the discrepancy between language versions; does this need to be reconciled or clarified? Furthermore, should the English Wikipedia page be titled Kiddush HaLevana with the definite article? What is the conventional nomenclature, and how can this be reflected in the English? -- Deborahjay (talk) 12:07, 5 February 2009 (UTC)

Surely "blessing the moon" is pagan not far removed from primitives worshipping the sun and/or moon? (David Kravitz) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 77.126.82.81 (talk) 12:10, 1 October 2009 (UTC)

"Blessing the moon" is not the same as "Being blessed by the moon". In this case, the prayers specifically bless G-d for creating the heavenly bodies with a word. We are acknowledging the significance of the new moon as it relates to our calendar, and thanking G-d for giving use the means to regulate the year and schedule our holidays (Ex 12:1-2).Pedantrician (talk) 20:21, 22 July 2010 (UTC)

External links modified

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Suggested improvements

Kudos on the progress made to this article. Steps to improve this article include:

• Find and paraphrase reliable sources that are not religious, such as journalistic or academic writing on the topice
• Reduce the reliance on primary sources, see: Wikipedia:Primary
• The current writing seems to assume the primacy or normativity of a halakhic (and Orthodox) perspective. For example, it is written in Wikivoice that "it should be recited on weekday[s]" in some cases. This is a problem for Wikipedia:Neutral point of view
• Discuss how the ritual is handled among non-Orthodox. Might look at: https://www.jtsa.edu/torah/kiddush-levanah/
• Might use the JE article, now in the public domain (but still needs to be cited properly): https://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/articles/9308-kiddush-lebanah
• Citations need to be improved, e.g., author, title, date, edition, etc.

Btw, the illustrations are good.

Sources that might be helpful:

• https://www.jtsa.edu/torah/kiddush-levanah/
• Rosen, David M., and Victoria P. Rosen. "New myths and meanings in Jewish new moon rituals." Ethnology (2000): 263-277. https://www.jstor.org/stable/3774110
• Ginzburg, Noa. "Kiddush Levana, The Moon Is Your Handheld Mirror." (2019). This is an art project. https://academicworks.cuny.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1538&context=hc_sas_etds
• Isaac Klein (older, Conservative Judaism), Guide to Jewish religious practice
• Non-Orthodox blessings, such as: https://ritualwell.org/ritual/new-moon-full-moon-meditation/ and https://ritualwell.org/ritual/meditation-new-moon/
• Woman can lead kiddush levana, according to source cited here: https://www.jofa.org/wp-content/uploads/2023/03/Partner-English.pdf
• Reform Judaism POV: Levy, David E. "Kiddush Levana: Creating Holy Space for Men: a Curricular Guide." PhD diss., Hebrew Union College-Jewish Institute of Religion, New York, 2010.
• Might find feminist material related to Rosh Chodesh, e.g., Feldman, Ron H. "" On your new moons": The feminist transformation of the Jewish new moon festival1." Journal of Women and Religion 19 (2001): 26. Or: Berrin, Susan, ed. Celebrating the new moon: A Rosh Chodesh anthology. Jason Aronson, Incorporated, 1998.

Hope this is helpful. ProfGray (talk) 16:57, 10 December 2024 (UTC)

Thanks for your review, ProfGray. I have spent quite a bit of time fixing citation format, adding secondary sources and trying to make it NPOV. I also added a section on non-Orthodox Judaism. Would you mind taking a look and letting me know what else should be done? Thanks very much. Dovidroth (talk) 15:37, 11 December 2024 (UTC)

Great to see the improvements made in the last day or so, here's some detailed feedback:

POV issues:

• "Normally" -- treats Orthodox as the norm. Delete. Add a sentence that the exemption does not apply in Conservative Judaism (or in non-Orthodox Judaisms).
• There are improvements, but I'd caution against "the halacha follows" and "the normative custom" without an explicit attribution.
• By the way, the current Orthodox sources are mostly Ashkenazi, right? Are there differences with current Sephardic/Mizrachi customs?
• The sentence about Isaac Klein is biased against Conservative Judaism, partly because of "in theory" (seems dismissive and not in the source) and partly because it emphasizes his point about "all but forgotten" (in a subordinate clause) yet ignores what he says in the rest of that paragraph, e.g., "it embodies much that might be appealing to contemporary Jews" and "has a mystic, haunting air about it." (p.267) quoting Millgram.
• Update: Klein seems based on Millgram. Do you have access? He says "now hardly known" and not in siddurim (writing in 1971). He identifies it as a distinct service (not in WP article?) and he mentioned geonic period. (Any other sources on Geonim?)
• Reform "traditionally not observed" -- is that sourced? I know it's currently true, but I'm not sure what is "traditionally" Reform, and it would be best to have a source or maybe omit it.
• Btw, you might add a source about current observance in Orthodoxy, e.g., from OU.org.
• (You might add a sentence or two about Chabad or other hasidic groups. Did you know that Chabad started a kiddush levana campaign in 1992? See: https://www.chabad.org/therebbe/article_cdo/aid/79163/jewish/The-Rebbes-Kiddush-Levanah.htm)
• David Levy 2010 dissertation. Did you get access to a copy? The link in the ref didn't work for me. I do see a brief mention of it here: http://www2.huc.edu/external/newsletter/10/02/25/ Is the article adding, "whom the Reform movement has had difficulty engaging" because that's a key point by Levy?
• RitualWell -- instead of a "describes itself as" framing (which seems to cast doubt), just say: Ritualwell, a website for progressive Jewish rituals, ....
• Ritualwell -- "these are not based on the traditional liturgy" -- added unnecessarily, again as if everything should be measured against the traditional

Section headings -- need to improve order of sections and consistency of content within sections:

• History. Are there any sources that trace the history of the ritual? This section has 1 sentence of history, rest is about location for ritual. Sentence on timing does not belong here. See the Ency Judaica (EJ) for history, mentioning Talmudic sources, Soferim, and Second Temple period.
• Timing. This section needs some reorganizing. Maybe a lead sentence to sum up key points and/or timing options? Paras 1,2,6 are about regular timing, and 6 should in 1st or 2nd position, right? Paras 3 and 5 are about exceptions or special timing, right? Para 4 -- not so much about timing as about the mourner, e.g., who says it.
• Ritual -- this is a general heading and I'd expect a description of the ritual here. Maybe a block quote or otherwise give text of the core blessing? But this also has the location (see current history section) and Saturday timing (timing section). The EJ gives the most common elements, not all in article yet.

Other points:

• "While the mainstream practice in Orthodox Judaism is that women do not recite Kiddush Levana" -- I think the sources mean that women are not obligated, right? Is there a source about mainstream practice in US, Israel, or elsewhere? Fwiw, I've seen women say it in the U.S., though I think that's uncommon.
• JOFA -- does it make a ruling? Didn't they cite a rabbinic source?

References:

• There's improvement with the cited references.
• Can you access the EJ Encyclopaedia Judaica, "Moon, Blessing of the" article? Could be very helpful as an English source,
• However, there is still a heavy reliance on primary halakhic sources. I personally appreciate it, but it's not typical for Wikipedia or GA status. Look at the current list of FA and GA articles on Judaism. I see few if any of these kinds of primary sources. If you want to move forward with a GA nomination with such sources, I would want to get other opinions on this aspect of the review.
• Is there Wikipedia guidance on how to cite rabbinic sources? For instance, do we need publisher name and standard pages to specific versions? That would require a significant amount of editing of the references.
• Wikipedia style would avoid multiple references for a given sentence. Currently there are many sentences with two or three footnotes. Why is that? I can imagine that much could be done with just the JE (English) and Ency Judaica. Ency Talmudit cover so much, but if I were to check, I'd want to know the original primary sources and I also wonder if it's a burden on English readers to rely too much on it.

Hope this is helpful. Thanks again for your work on this piece. ProfGray (talk) 16:28, 11 December 2024 (UTC)

GA Review

This review is transcluded from Talk:Kiddush levana/GA1. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.

Nominator: Dovidroth (talk · contribs) 07:29, 5 December 2024 (UTC)

Reviewer: ProfGray (talk · contribs) 19:51, 10 December 2024 (UTC)

Kudos to the contributors to this article, including the nominator who has made substantial additions.

However, this article is not ready for Good Article status. Several significant concerns are given in the talk page, in a section on suggested improvements. These concerns include: (1) the article is based mostly on religious, primary sources, so it requires reliable sources from scholars or journalists; (2) the writing needs to be more encyclopedia and should not be expressing or advocating in "wikivoice" the norms of Jewish law; (3) besides adopting a more NPOV voice, the article should give some attention to non-Orthodox Judaisms that are less focused on halakhah; and (4) the citations need more complete and properly formatted bibliographic information. In the Talk section, I suggest a few sources or angles that may enable the article to move forward and to reflect a broader range of Jewish culture(s). These concerns are not likely to be resolved in a week, and I'm not putting the review "on hold," so don't hesitate to ping me for further input or assistance. Thanks! ProfGray (talk) 19:51, 10 December 2024 (UTC)