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Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents
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Abusive blocking of Frater Xyzzy by Blnguyen

This is really bugging me, for all sorts of reasons. It's an example of a user that has been proven innocent being blocked obsessively by the same admin.

Blnguyen has now blocked Frater Xyzzy 3 times now. The first block was "23:53, January 18, 2007 Blnguyen (Talk | contribs) blocked "Frater Xyzzy (contribs)" (anon. only, account creation blocked, autoblock enabled) with an expiry time of indefinite (sock of Jefferson Anderson, by RFCU)" (That RFCU does not exist, more on that below)

Xyzzy then moved accross country, took a wikibreak while traveling, and edited on an anonomous IP (from his new home) while waiting for his main account to get a new RFCU on it, and get unbanned. That RFCU was completed on February 4th by Jpgordon who established that the first RFCU (which I cannot find) was faulty, and that they are infact different people. Using that RFCU result, Xyzzy Requested an unblock and it was granted "10:35, February 4, 2007 Yamla (Talk | contribs) unblocked Frater Xyzzy (contribs) (Unblock as per checkuser)"

Now this is all 100% ok and how wikipedia should work. Now is when it gets fun.

Immediatly after Xyzzy was unblocked due to the RFCU showing that him and his suspected sockpuppet were unrelated users, MSJapan began admin-shopping to get Xyzzy re-blocked. He asked |Jpgordon, WMC, and Yamla (the unblocking admin) stating on Yamla's page "I don't care that Frater Xyzzy is not Jefferson Anderson. Xyzzy stated clearly he moved - of course it's not going to match." all 3 admins declined to re-block Xyzzy, they didn't agree with MSJ's argument that Xyzzy should be re-blocked since he was using a anon-ip to evade his block that later turned out to be based on incorrect information. When MSJ couldnt' get any of those 3 admins to block Xyzzy for block evasion, he asked Blnguyen to re-block him. And Blnguyen did so stating "Well, he's bent the rules again by evading his block and I wouldn't be surprised if he was evading the technology anyway.". The block reads "00:49, February 5, 2007 Blnguyen (Talk | contribs) blocked "Frater Xyzzy (contribs)" (anon. only, account creation blocked, autoblock enabled) with an expiry time of 2 weeks (proclaimed block evasion)".

User:Theresa knott noticed this odd block and asked why Xyzzy was re-blocked. Blnguyen responded "Ah, he was originally blocked after Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/Starwood raised some issues and Dmcdevit and UC showed that they were linked, initially. Given the editing patterns, there was also suspicion that these guys had multiple computers or were meatpuppets of some banned users. So I blocked Frater Xyzzy. It turns out he was evading that block, as he later admitted using an IP, and then re-signed the IP address using his username." Blnguyen blocked Xyzzy originally as a sockpuppet due to circumstancial discussion and analysis of editing patterns there was no Check User done as he claimed in the original block. He then re-blocked Xyzzy for evading his original block, even after a RFCU proved that Xyzzy was not a sock, and that the original block was invalid. This is in Blnguyen's own words.

Now the 2 week block on Xyzzy lapsed and he was unblocked. Blnguyen couldn't stay away and once again blocked Xyzzy, this time perma-block with the block "21:00, February 22, 2007 Blnguyen (Talk | contribs) blocked "Frater Xyzzy (contribs)" (anon. only, account creation blocked) with an expiry time of indefinite (Ekajati/999 sock) "

What's wrong with this? How about the fact that the new checkuser Wikipedia:Requests_for_checkuser/Case/999 didn't show that Xyzzy was a sock of Ekajati/999, infact it showed exactly the opposite. User:Fred Bauder ran the Checkuser and "Checkuser shows no connection. User:Fred Bauder 23:47, 24 January 2007 (UTC)". So somehow Blnguyen decided that even though checkuser shows no connection that he would ban them all as socks anyway. This is unacceptable behavior from an admin.

To make the situation worse, Xyzzy posted a Block Review request on his talk page. With the reason "Arbitrarily blocked by Blnguyen on a witchhunt. Multiple checkusers have been done which show that I am not a sock of anyone. This is getting ridiculous." Which is 100% accurate. Multiple checkusers have been done, and all have proven that Xyzzy is NOT a sock of anyone. Why is the situation worse? The block was reviewed by User:Ryulong and DENIED with the reason "I trust Blnguyen's discrepancy."

This is rediculious. How many times does a user need to be cleared??? What's the point of Checkuser if the results of it are completly ignored by admins? And what is the point of a Block Review if the reviewing admin doesn't look into the block, but instead simply says that they trust the blocking admin? Talk about a breakdown of the system. Personally i'm disgusted by this, and it needs to be addressed. Seraphim 03:04, 9 March 2007 (UTC)

Your post above contains a lot of false information. I asked Dmcdevit to do a RFCU, and he said that they were the same guys (early January) - and when I looked again Dmcdevit had recused from the case, so I asked UC to reconfirm the date for me. He noted the connection at Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/Starwood/Workshop that both JA and FX were related. Thus, they were blocked, with the on-wiki certification of a CU being run. The claims by Seraphim that I invented the sock data are false. Thus, my reblock of FX for block evasion was not a second punishment for an innocent user, since the CU already showed that he and JA were related. I did not state that I was justifying the initial block due to my instincts alone. After a few IPs from open proxies and TOR hosting machines started swamping an AfD in the general topics of these editors, I asked Dmcdevit to do another careful dissection of the data of 999. The results are here ->User_talk:Blnguyen/Archive40#User:A_Ramachandran.27s_block, after I have IP addresses left lying about by the aforementioned editors, it yielded a match. It also showed extensive use of anonymous proxies, TOR etc, by the parties. In February after another spate of socks turned up, I talked to another arbitrator and checkuser and he checkusered the accounts, and they revealed widespread use of proxies and tors from right across the world in one day. From the discussion, it was agreed that the chances that multiple honest new users all popping up on the same obscure topic with TOR and proxies was very unlikely. Added to that the fact that they had the same religious ideology with strong knowledge of wikipolitics, arbitration cases, and instantaneous use of popups tools makes things very obvious. Given that I had already noted at the Starwood evidence that HD, Ek and 999 had interweaved edits despite being in the same timezone, that the latter two were created or became active 3 hours after the first was blocked, etc, they were blocked. I went back and checked FX's record as well, and it shows perfect overlapping as well with the other four. This is in addition to the use of subversive technology. Blnguyen (bananabucket) 02:15, 14 March 2007 (UTC)

So where are the checkuser results for the indef block posted? The only checkuser results that are up on wikipedia now after his first block, all show no relation. Basically what your saying is, even though the public checkusers showed no relation, somehow you decided that since people have the same religious ideology and knowledge of wikipedia they are obvious socks? Even though for example, the Frater Xyzzy account has NEVER edited the Starwood pages that the people he was blocked as a sock of obsessively edited it? The lack of transparancy in this case is kinda scary. I don't want to be blocked sometime in the future because someone else in my city starts editing pages that I edit and some admin comes around and decides to indef block me even though the RFCU shows we aren't editing from the same IP. The checkusers on the site clear Xyzzy every time. You might have found another sock group, that's great, however the Xyzzy account NEVER edited Starwood. Never ever ever. There was no reason to block him as a sock of those other users. The fact that nobody from the starwood case is pushing for him to stay blocked, instead his case is being pushed by people who edit the freemasonry related pages that he was active on. The lack of transparancy in this case is simply a complete failure of the wikipedia system. Don't block someone saying you blocked them because of a RFCU if a RFCU doesn't exist. And don't just deny block reviews stating that you trust the previous admin. That seems to just be common sence. Seraphim 05:06, 14 March 2007 (UTC)

The results weren't posted publicly, they were discussed by arbitrators. The results showed that the editors used the same techniques of technological obfuscation. I have been advised that the percentage of honest editors who use these techniques are very low. Then the second user also has the same editing interests as the other on many obscure pages, has the same POV, and seems to have instantaneous knowledge of wikilaw. The user is blocked because he is the same guy evading his block, and editing the same articles that the master wrote. If these guys have nothing to hide, then they would edit cleanly. The RFCU does exist, although only the checkusers can see it. Blnguyen (bananabucket) 05:43, 14 March 2007 (UTC)

So basically to sum up. People went through the official channels to get socks checked, the results of the official sock checks were that the users were unrelated. Then some arbitrators discussed the situation and decided to block the users anyway, and run a new checkuser because apparently the people that ran the 2 checkusers before, the official ones, apparently don't understand how to interperate checkuser results? I cannot understand how 2 admins with checkuser find no connection, but then somehow on a secret checkuser all of asudden there was an obvious connection. Also you don't seem to be understanding my other point. "user is blocked because he is the same guy evading his block, and editing the same articles that the master wrote" Xyzzy NEVER EVER EVER edited the Starwood page. He has ZERO edits on the starwood page. If he was a sock puppet and the guy was making socks to evade blocks then he would have been editing the page on his sock! "If these guys have nothing to hide, then they would edit cleanly." What is Editing Cleanly? How does someone edit cleanly? I wasn't aware there was such a thing. Plus I am not the only one disturbed by the idea that RFCUs that only checkusers can see exist. The idea of people running checkusers without a proper RFCU filing kinda defeats the whole idea of checkuser. Seraphim 05:54, 14 March 2007 (UTC)

It's a FISA warrant RfCU, and it's a need to know basis. (joke.) I agree with Seraphim. When did wikipolicy start permitting secret actions by people outside the real wikia offices? (other than like, Jimmy Wales' actal paid staff?). This is sort of troubling behavior, and can easily lend creibility to accusations of 'cabalism'. better than caNIBBbalism, but only slightly.) ThuranX 21:53, 15 March 2007 (UTC)

Actually RFCU was started as an outlet for people to put a request in conveniently. It never stopped arbitrators or checkusers from just doing it themselves if necessary. As for what the report is, there is no magic machine which prints the result or conclusion from the data, so there is no difference between what an arbitrator says on a Wikipedia report and what they say via email, unless they tell different stories.As regards to the CU, it depends on how closely one is looking of course. As I pointed out above, I found instances where IP addresses were left lying around after the initial check, and with the extra evidence, Dmcdevit certified that the users were indeed the same. As for the second point, if a user is subverting the system by violating WP:NOP, then there will be no connection at all just by numbers, unless someone verifies to see if the numbers are from illegitimate editing means. And FX did edit the same articles as 999, who is currently blocked. The fact that he does not edit all of them, eg Starwood, still does not mean it is not him. Blnguyen (bananabucket) 06:15, 14 March 2007 (UTC)

As amused as I am by the Freudian slip of Ryulong ... I looked at the second block while going through WP:RFU a few weeks ago. I was unimpressed with the block and I was unimpressed with the behavior of those supporting the block who felt the need to harass the user while he was blocked. I trust Blnguyen, but would like to hear a good explanation. From my own research then and now, I haven't seen anything to justify it. (I'm not saying that there isn't justification - just that I haven't seen it, but would like to.) --BigDT 04:21, 9 March 2007 (UTC)

My best advice, from the outside perspective, is email the ArbCom mailing list. Fred, jpgordan, and Blnguyen are all on there and two of the users ran the RFCU. I certainly cannot check on the IP information and what might be causing this confusion, and they might best clarify their actions. It's an interesting case that you've presented, but what is there to say if there seems to be private conversations taking place concerning abuse? We don't know both sides, and we may never in the interest of beans. AGF that these long-standing editors have some kind of clue, I say. Teke ^(talk) 04:26, 9 March 2007 (UTC)

I was doing a normal CAT:RFU check. I looked at the block log, saw that he had been blocked before for other reasons, and I trusted Blinguyen's block, as checkusers are not definitive at times and for all I knew, he could have asked for a checkuser off of Wikipedia. I do that from time to time to close down sockfarms that I come in contact with.—Ryūlóng (竜龍) 04:39, 9 March 2007 (UTC)

A clean checkuser is "definitive" in the sense that it is (supposedly) the last resort, so the fact that a case is accepted means there is no other evidence sufficient (via edit patterns etc) to establish that the user was a sockpuppet. To suppose "oh, well, he might be a sockpuppet anyway, despite there being no sufficient basis to say so, because it's unprovable that he's not" is a blatant violation of AGF. On that basis, you might be a sockpuppet, and you can never clear your name of that - AGF, in this case, implicitly means innocent until proven guilty.

And for someone who had already _had_ one checkuser run on them establishing nothing, there should _not_ be a presumption that another checkuser with different results was conducted in secret - any further checkuser should be done openly. And, regardless of anything related to this particular block... if you "trust" the blocking admin, you should leave the unblock template for someone else not so trusting to look at, otherwise we might as well just delete it. --Random832 13:53, 9 March 2007 (UTC)

Well a CU is essentially private even if the results are posted, since only the executing CU operator sees the data. Blnguyen (bananabucket) 02:15, 14 March 2007 (UTC)

I'd disagree with that assessment of Checkuser utility, it's a last resort confirmation if nothing else is conclusive, but it doesn't prove a negative, particularly when there is a lot of behavioural congruence.

In this case one C/U indicated a link, a second was inconclusive inasmuch as it didn't show enough to confirm a link. jpgordon, who ran the second, did become aware of this debate the last time Seraphim raised it and took no action.

A recent SSP case regarding this link was closed without action because of the onging starwood arbitration, rather than because there was insufficient evidence to demonstrate a link.

There appears to be a lot of doubt about this incidence of puppetry.

ALR 14:07, 9 March 2007 (UTC)

I didn't say it proves a negative. It is conclusive in so far as it is final, since there is nothing else that comes after it. It doesn't prove a negative only because a negative cannot be proven. If there's "a lot of behavioural congruence", then a checkuser is unnecessary. If there's not enough to make a checkuser unnecessary, and a checkuser is negative, there is NO valid basis for considering the user a sockpuppet. --Random832 15:46, 9 March 2007 (UTC)

Bearing in mind that it's part of the ongoing Starwood mediation, which is a pretty bloody and unpleasant affair, then it's clearly not as simple as Seraphim has sought to make out above. That's really about all I'm saying.ALR 18:13, 9 March 2007 (UTC)

Xyzzy has never edited the starwood pages, nor is he involved in the mediation/arbitration. Seraphim 21:47, 9 March 2007 (UTC)

I'm adding a note to Blnguyen's talk page pointing him to this. He should respond before it gets archived. Seraphim 17:08, 10 March 2007 (UTC)

Blnguyen hasn't edited since the 8th, this shouldn't be archived untill he has a chance to respond. Seraphim 06:30, 12 March 2007 (UTC)

I'd just like to second the concerns of Seraphim here. It seems like, recently, there've been several people blocked as socks of Ekajati by Blnguyen that have been done without enough transparency and that seemed dubious to me on the surface. First 999 was blocked as a sock of Ekajati, which struck me as wrong because a) I don't know too many socks that disagree with each other and b) like Xyzzy he had previously been cleared by checkuser of connections to Ekajati. However, my doubt about the block was lessened when he responded with his reasons. But, I'm particularly incredulous about this block, just because Xyzzy and Hanuman Das (another person blocked as a sock of Ekajati) seem even less like the same user than 999 and HD did. I would like to see these blocks reviewed beyond a simple "I'm going to go with whatever Blnguyen has decided." I don't know if it's a systemic flaw in Wikipedia admin practice, but at the very least I think WP:SSP cases should be opened, because it doesn't strike me as right that long-time contributors should be blocked for life without a formal presentation of why. --notJackhorkheimer ^{(talk / contribs)} 21:02, 10 March 2007 (UTC)

You can see Wikipedia:Requests for adminship/Chacor 2 which documents the use of two confirmed and confessed sockpuppet accounts that voted oppositely on one occasion. Only the most incompetent (or short-term usage sockpuppets used for temporary swamping) sockpuppeteers do things obviously - like use the sock for voting and reverting only. As for the rest, see above. A CU was done. Blnguyen (bananabucket) 02:15, 14 March 2007 (UTC)

And SSP case was opened in this instance, here, but the admin closing it copped out of acting because of the ongoing arbcom case.ALR 21:42, 10 March 2007 (UTC)

The admin also closed it because JA was no longer going to be editing wikipedia. Also a Sock check was already done between Frater and JA here, so running the check again 2 weeks later would have once again shown no connection. Seraphim 04:25, 11 March 2007 (UTC)

Well yeah, there was that SSP, but it was basically unrelated to Xyzzy being blocked as a sock of Ekajati. From what I saw of that, it was edited for a while with accusations re: Xyzzy and JA, then let sit for a while, then the closing admin saw Xyzzy being blocked as a sock of Ekajati and went, "Oh, well this is irrelevant now, Xyzzy's blocked. So, closing this." What I wish would be done is for there to be SSPs for long-time editors for the block in question, basically showing why a block was done. Yes, it involves more process, but IMO long-time editors deserve this before being indefinitely blocked. --notJackhorkheimer ^{(talk / contribs)} 07:26, 11 March 2007 (UTC)

I also have concerns in this case. The evidence and rationale behind the indef block is way too thin, or there is a serious lack of transparency. Either way, more process is required to substantiate an indef block. I'm also disturbed by the actions of Ryulong in reviewing the block with such apparent superficiality. —Doug Bell ^talk 07:24, 12 March 2007 (UTC)

Yup, couldn't agree more. Seraphim 02:04, 13 March 2007 (UTC)

Well you can read above now. Blnguyen (bananabucket) 02:15, 14 March 2007 (UTC)

Thanks for the detailed explanation. I would hope in the future that the evidence supporting a indef block of a longtime user would be presented at the time the user is blocked instead of after the fact. Transparency is important and should not be lightly tossed aside. The reasons can be summarized, as you have done above, without the need to expose confidential information. —Doug Bell ^talk 00:39, 15 March 2007 (UTC)

Of course the major problem with not presenting the evidence, is that it's impossible for another admin to review the block. How would in this case any admin beable to review his block properly? You blocked him as an admin not an arbitrator since it was not an arbcom ruling. Are we to assume that somehow your blocks are not reviewable? Seraphim 01:03, 15 March 2007 (UTC)

If another admin wants to review a block and the reasoning isn't clear, he/she can simply email the blocking admin and ask for information. All blocks are reviewable. IrishGuy ^talk 01:08, 15 March 2007 (UTC)

Yes, but it is prefereable that actions such as that are simply transparent. Asking questions about it off-wiki is not transparent. —Doug Bell ^talk 09:19, 15 March 2007 (UTC)

Certified.Gangsta

This is a content issue. Take it to the talk page of the article or WP:DR. Nothing belongs here.--Doc^g 16:17, 11 March 2007 (UTC)

Someone took the archive off. I don't know who. But I would like to comment that this is more than of a content issue. Review the case if you are interested. AQu01rius (User • Talk) 02:52, 14 March 2007 (UTC)

I have absolutely had it with Certified.Gangsta (talk · contribs). He constantly revert-wars and refuses to discuss. When he does discuss he doesn't listen to what anyone else says and ignores consensus. A quick perusal of his contributions will show that he completely reverts any edit he doesn't like, without thinking about why those edits were made or whether he can productively fix the more controversial parts while retaining the good parts. In his latest adventure he has reverted an edit I made to a talk page that removed some posts that were using it as a discussion forum for general issues related to the subject of the article, but not to improving the article itself.

In this edit history you see him revert the talk page something like eight times.

You may recall his edit-warring and stubbornness over the deceptive banner on his userpage. It took only four editors and three months to get him to stop. --Ideogram 05:28, 11 March 2007 (UTC)

Is there something specific you want us to do? --²¹⁰physicq (c) 05:35, 11 March 2007 (UTC)

I understand your frustration, but "absolutely had it" is a little ... strong, perhaps :P? Yuser31415 05:37, 11 March 2007 (UTC)

He's a revert-warrior. 3RR is an electric fence, not a quota. Limit him to 2RR. --Ideogram 05:40, 11 March 2007 (UTC)

Electric fence may be the wrong analogy. Try minefield. :) --²¹⁰physicq (c) 05:42, 11 March 2007 (UTC)

I prefer machine gun crossfire, actually. Yuser31415 06:31, 11 March 2007 (UTC)

He is now edit-warring on multiple pages. Just look at his contribs. --Ideogram 22:03, 11 March 2007 (UTC)

Please see Talk:Michelle Marsh (model)#English vs. British for an example of his debating "style". --Ideogram 22:35, 11 March 2007 (UTC)

Agreed. I have no (substantive) interest in Michelle Marsh, but his persistent, unrepetent, and endless edit warring on that article has come up on my radar. Since I've reverted him, there, it's not appropriate for me to intervene administratively. But someone uninvolved should definitely take a look. Nandesuka 22:48, 11 March 2007 (UTC)

I don't think this user can be assumed good faith anymore. He denies any sort of communication, and insists that his opinion is the only correct one. User have been edit-warring rather inappropriately for half an year. AQu01rius (User • Talk) 17:32, 12 March 2007 (UTC)

I agree with AQu01rius. This user's disruptive editing and edit-warring has gone too far. I think it is time to file a RFC. LionheartX 13:44, 13 March 2007 (UTC)

"You may recall his edit-warring and stubbornness] over the deceptive banner on his userpage". Yes, I recall the brouhaha and the bullying. If four editors care so much about a harmless joke on somebody else's userpage that they spend three months of "edit-warring and stubbornness" to "get him to stop", it suggests to me that they need something more constructive to do. And LionheartX, who has just been blocked indefinitely, is hardly a neutral voice here. Bishonen | talk 14:56, 13 March 2007 (UTC).

Please note that I am not referring to the joke banner, which I have never cared nor posted about. What I referred to is how this user constantly uses extreme Pro-Taiwanese tone in various articles and claims all editors (mostly fellow Taiwanese) who tried to adjust his edits "POV pushing". This user never displayed a sense of understanding on the WP:NPOV policy, and the consistent edit-warring over the Taiwa-China subject matter is becoming very distruptive. AQu01rius (User • Talk) 17:48, 13 March 2007 (UTC)

Yes, I undertand that, and it's to your credit that you weren't one of the Four Musqueteurs. But please note that I was replying to Ideogram, not you. That's why I quoted Ideogram. Bishonen | talk 23:43, 13 March 2007 (UTC).

Do you really think the banner incident was that important to my case? How can I get you to focus on the important issue here without (my) making a personal attack? --Ideogram 00:59, 14 March 2007 (UTC)

Certified.Gangsta is at this very moment engaged in revert-warring on Culture of Taiwan and ignoring the comments we have made on the talk page explaining our edits. It is impossible to get him to discuss and cease revert-warring. --Ideogram 01:07, 14 March 2007 (UTC)

He has broadened his POV-pushing campaign to People's Republic of China. Just look at his contributions, they are almost all revert-warring and never stand for long. --Ideogram 01:11, 14 March 2007 (UTC)

Will someone please block him instead of allowing him to burn up 3RR every freaking time? --Ideogram 01:14, 14 March 2007 (UTC)

(edit conflict) Just blocked Certified.Gangsta for 24 hours for violation of 3RR on the article Culture of Taiwan. Reverts: [1] [2] [3] [4]. Please note that this was done prior to Ideogram's request above. Viridae^Talk 01:16, 14 March 2007 (UTC)

Thank you. Bishonen, since you are friendly with Certified.Gangsta, can you please try to convince him not to continue this unproductive behavior? --Ideogram 01:18, 14 March 2007 (UTC)

I realize that they're supposed to follow the spirit of the policy, and not the letter... but still, 4 reverts in 28 hours? That hardly seems like a 'revert war'. Especially since there's still a note on his talk page about how someone wasn't blocked in spite of literally violating 3RR, gangsta getting blocked when he didn't violate the letter seems a bit heavy-handed. It certainly appears to present an inconsistent application of policies. "If you violate the policy, you may go entirely unpunished. But, even if you don't technically violate it, you still may get punished. Just because." Bladestorm 01:25, 14 March 2007 (UTC)
Excuse me. I hadn't realized. The person who actually reported the "edit war" was, in fact, the same editor who avoided being blocked for literally violating 3RR. Seriously, what sort of message does this say?
Ideogram clearly violates 3RR, and isn't blocked.
Gangsta doesn't technically violate it, and is blocked, when he's reported by Ideogram.
Does nobody else see the inconsistency here? "Do as I say, not as I do"? (For reference, I'm not saying that ideogram should've been blocked either. But it's certainly a double standard, and a disproportionate application of policies; especially for very-much related cases. Bladestorm 01:30, 14 March 2007 (UTC)

(edit conflict) :Any previous block (or lack there-of) had no bearing on this one. 3rr is not a right and 28 hours is four hours past the normal 3RR deadline, however I that agressive editing style is very disruptive and hence he earnt the block. If an uninvolved admin wishes to review this and remove or shorten the block (24hours) then feel free. Application of policy is entirely up the the administrators discretion, as paticularly noted on WP:3RR. Viridae^Talk 01:33, 14 March 2007 (UTC)

Bladestorm, I am not sure if you have reviewed the original case. User:Certified.Gangsta have a long history of advocating pro-Taiwanese point of view, which violates the WP:NPOV policy. His reverts are mostly reverts against the consensus version of the article, that is agreed by most sides to be politically neutral. User:Ideogram merely performed reverts that changed back the version with questionable point of view to the consensus version. This should be within the scope of WP:3RR#Exceptions. AQu01rius (User • Talk) 02:50, 14 March 2007 (UTC)

Well, first off, you really did more to prove my point than you may realize. The action was taken for who he is, rather than what he did. Being pro-taiwan, and occasionally lacking neutrality doesn't provide license to nudge the rules around. And no, that is absolutely not covered by the exceptions, and intentionally so. Content disputes, even when stubborn, misguided, etc, are not allowable exceptions for 3RR. I wish I could remember where I saw an admin explaining that very point.

I still stand by my initial protest: rules should be applied as consistently as possible. When two people clearly have issues with eachother, admins should endeavour to not take sides. What's more, if editor A reports editor B for a verifiable violation of 3RR, and then editor B reports editor A for a violation of the spirit but not letter of 3RR, it's grossly inappropriate to punish B, but not A. Bladestorm 03:42, 14 March 2007 (UTC)

Have you ever been warned that if you use your third revert again you will be blocked? I have. Gangsta consistently reverts up to his third revert on multiple articles, every freeking time. I strongly suggest you review his entire edit history and then see what you think. It's not about the letter of the law here. --Ideogram 03:56, 14 March 2007 (UTC)

(Reply to Bladestorm) Whether the admin's decision on blocking User:Certified.Gangsta for 24 hour due to violation of WP:3RR without acknowledging User:Ideogram's possible violation of the rule was inappropriate or not? Um, First, I don't think User:Ideogram have reverted more than three times today, correct me if I am wrong. Second, this is not really an dispute between two editors, but between a editor with disruptive history and a whole community. However, you are right on that we should not take the user as who he is. AQu01rius (User • Talk) 04:17, 14 March 2007 (UTC)

Well, for the sake of reference: [5], [6], [7], and [8]. Four edits within just under 22 hours. And, in this case, even if other people have issues with gangsta, this is still very much a matter of a dispute between two editors.

First gangsta reports Ideogram's actual violation. Then Ideogram reports gangsta's violation in spirit. That doesn't sound like a dispute between two editors to you? (Since I don't remember which page I said this on, I'll say it again: I'm not saying Ideogram should've been blocked either. I'm only saying that there should be consistency with how rules are applied.) Bladestorm 04:37, 14 March 2007 (UTC)

Those 4 reverts you showed were the ones reported by C.G as there is a self revert a couple of edits after the last one. Yes, 3RR was broken, but it was self reverted. Consistency between admins is very hard to achieve. I personally try to apply consistency among all my actions, and in an attempt to be fair to the parties involved, I have above asked that any admin who feels the block was unjustified to unblock or reduce it as they see fit. However without hard and fast rules (which 3RR is not) you cannot be totally consistent between different admins as we all approach the situation differently. Viridae^Talk 05:09, 14 March 2007 (UTC)

Just wanted to add, see Talk:List of Chinese Americans#Chinese Americans .3D Americans of Chinese descent for an example of User:Certified Gangsta persisting in so-called discussion where he repeats the same mis-guided personal opinion over and over again no matter what other editors put forth as evidence or argument. I would submit that this is an example of non-good-faith discussion, which is merely a delay tactic by which he justifies continued edit warring on the article page. --Sumple (Talk) 05:21, 14 March 2007 (UTC)

Again, that's a content issue. And maybe a civility issue. But those are beside the point. I have no specific allegiance towards gangsta. To be frank, my only interest is in both fairness, as well as the appearance of fairness. When A reports B, and then B reports A, if A is the only one to literally break the rules, then B shouldn't be the only one punished. Simply put, it doesn't inspire confidence. Bladestorm 05:32, 14 March 2007 (UTC)

(outdent) did you look at Gangsta's edit history or not? There is absolutely no point in talking to you if you aren't capable of looking at the whole picture. --Ideogram 05:44, 14 March 2007 (UTC)

There's no point in talking to you if you aren't capable of addressing my actual concerns. I'll say it again. I don't give a flying crap if he was generally uncivil, beligerant, or even radioactive. If the admin position is to have any credibility whatsoever, then it needs to be presented as a fair and unbiased position. Using an evaluation of an editor themself, rather than the specific action you're addressing, is a step in the wrong direction. When two editors are in an edit war together, and only one of them actually directly violates 3RR, then punishing the other is inappropriate. And it annihilates credibility.

I don't care what you think of gangsta. You don't need to convince me that he isn't a saint, because I couldn't give a flying crap if he was a deranged giraffe pretending to be a human editor. Frankly, at least half the articles on my watchlist are topics that I have relatively little interest in, but where my only concern is that they are approached fairly and neutrally. Two editors involved in the same dispute, with similar 'crimes' should be treated similarly. If one editor has a lesser 'crime' (or none at all), then he certainly shouldn't be treated worse, regardless of who he is. Bladestorm 06:00, 14 March 2007 (UTC)

(I stopped reading at your first flying crap.) I don't give a flying crap about your concerns. You only care about the letter of the law which is the perfect definition of wikilawyering. If you can convince an admin of the validity of your concerns, more power to you. So far you don't seem to be having much success. --Ideogram 06:02, 14 March 2007 (UTC)

Ideogram, don't mess with my comments. Not only does it make it harder to follow what people are saying (signed or not, if it's inline then it becomes harder to read), but it's also terribly rude.

Next, announcing that you didn't even bother reading a point, but still felt the need to reply to it is the height of "disruption". I'm now going to request that you refrain from commenting at all. If you're going to admit that you don't feel like reading before replying, then there's no question that you aren't even trying to accomplish anything.

Next, I'm not wikilawyering. Nor am I only concerned with the "letter of the law". There's a difference between wikilawyering and asking for consistency and fairness. If you don't know the bloody difference, then you shouldn't be announcing that fact to everybody else. Incidentally, I think that's ignoring the whole AGF thing; attributing false motives to everything I do? Remind me again, who was the disruptive one in that dispute?

If anyone wants to actually discuss the issues, then I'm game. But if you once again announce that you don't feel like reading before replying, or that you don't care about people's concerns (but will still belittle them), then I'll expect an admin to immediately blank such comments. Bladestorm 06:33, 14 March 2007 (UTC)

(stopped reading at "disruption") You don't seem to understand how things work around here, what requests you can credibly make, and what admins are likely to do. You seem to think that it's ok for you to remove other people's comments based solely on your judgment that they constitute personal attacks, and you don't care that it makes it harder to follow what people are saying. I think you have a lot to learn before you will be effective at convincing others here at Wikipedia. --Ideogram 06:41, 14 March 2007 (UTC)

Hmm, yeah, well, I hope you can see by reading the link I supplied that it's not simply a matter of (1) a content dispute, or (2) two editors warring with each other. A user's behaviour in what starts as a content disupte, beyond a certain point, becomes an issue of disruptive editing. Secondly, its not just Ideogram who has had, and continues to have, problems. --Sumple (Talk) 05:55, 14 March 2007 (UTC)

I wanna add my two-cents here, having dealt with him rather recently mostly on Culture of Taiwan. I have to say it is wrong to say it's a content dispute, about pro-taiwan vs. pro-china. Based on my interaction with him, he shows that he basically knows little about the issue and when approached on discussion pages generally writes a lot of nonsense, things that even an extremely pro-taiwan person would not say. He also reverts and accuses everybody opposed to it of being "pro-china" and has accused me of being of "community banned sock puppet". It's one thing to be back and forth with reasonable arguments on the talk page, but it's another when he's totally inaccesible and "just don't get it". Blueshirts 16:56, 14 March 2007 (UTC)

Second that. It's not just a matter of having a strong opinion or putting in wrong/unsourced/improper content. Its a matter of refusing to discuss, and using inappropriate tactics to advance said content. --Sumple (Talk) 01:16, 15 March 2007 (UTC)

Separate Dispute between Bladestorm and Ideogram

Well, this has officially entered a new chapter.
Previously, I had been proceeding on the assumption that gangsta was exaggerating, at least a little bit. However, Ideogram has now just started stalking me as well.
Take a look at this edit here. In a long, drawn-out problem with whether or not to include references to richard gere cramming small rodents up his butt, there was a problem with someone choosing not to address the actual issues at all, but rather accuse editors who care about the policy for bios of living persons as being "rabid Richard Gere fans" whoa re "unable to cope" that "feel the need to suppress them at every opportunity." Since this wasn't directly about the article, and was an accusation of bad faith, and was a direct personal attack, I removed it.
Maybe the right choice, maybe the wrong choice. But that's not the issue here. Here's the issue.
In addition to proclaiming that he wouldn't read my arguments (but would still belittle them), Ideogram actually traced back my contributions to try to find something to report. And, sure enough, take a look here. Notice that, when he was unable to address my arguments directly, he instead tried to find another method of getting to me.
Not only is this rude, and disruptive, but it also throws out any possible arguments that gangsta is a strictly disruptive editor, while Ideogram acts in good faith. Normally, I don't comment on contributers. Only content. However, I don't know how else to interpret this. Bladestorm 06:53, 14 March 2007 (UTC)

Yeah good luck with that. --Ideogram 06:55, 14 March 2007 (UTC)

If anyone is interested in my side of the story, it is here. --Ideogram 07:11, 14 March 2007 (UTC)

Guys, I'm giving you a room of your own to avoid distraction from the Certified Gangsta problem. --Sumple (Talk) 08:01, 14 March 2007 (UTC)

Thank you, but I think our dispute is over. --Ideogram 08:04, 14 March 2007 (UTC)

Where do we go from here

Okay, I don't think anyone seriously believes that this one block is going to make Gangsta change his ways. If people are willing, the next step is to file an RFC against Gangsta to show that the community disapproves of his actions. If that doesn't work, the next step would be ArbCom. I am not eager to take it that far, but I really don't know how to convince him he needs to change. If anyone can propose any other solutions I would like to hear them. --Ideogram 08:11, 14 March 2007 (UTC)

If you've been upset enough to do all this on ANI and then the spinoff into my talk page, please take the time and effort to do a RFC. The value in showing someone that there is a community consensus feeling, not just a couple of people picking on them, is enormous. Much more so than a single block. And it takes less effort than last night's arguments here did... Georgewilliamherbert 18:22, 14 March 2007 (UTC)

I did file an RFC already but no one else certified it and it got deleted. I am quite willing to file another but I need someone to certify it. --Ideogram 20:58, 14 March 2007 (UTC)

Gangsta is back and edit-warring again. Someone please have a word with him. --Ideogram 17:51, 15 March 2007 (UTC)

Ideogram is stalking me on a variety of article such as John Profumo and Michelle Marsh. The last block was unjustified anyway.--Certified.Gangsta 17:54, 15 March 2007 (UTC)

Yeah, good luck with that. --Ideogram 18:00, 15 March 2007 (UTC)

Similar behaviors toward Bladestorm as well who disagree that I should be for 3RR when I didn't violate it. It's blatant double-standard.--Certified.Gangsta 18:02, 15 March 2007 (UTC)

Btw you claimed I edit war. Well, it takes 2 people to edit war. From what I'm seeing, you're the one who's edit warring and stalking my contributions. You also stalk Bladestorm just because he disagrees with you. Stop now or we go straight to arbCom.--Certified.Gangsta 18:04, 15 March 2007 (UTC)

Oh my god, I would love to take you to ArbCom. --Ideogram 18:05, 15 March 2007 (UTC)

Not you taking me. Me taking you since you're the one who is stalking, disrupting, bullying, and POV pushing all over the place. Bishonen made that quite clear. You called me a vandal and a dick before. Now tell me who's wrong in this dispute?--Certified.Gangsta 18:09, 15 March 2007 (UTC)

Perhaps you didn't realize that there is no real difference between you taking me to ArbCom and me taking you to ArbCom. And you don't get to decide who's wrong, that's what ArbCom is for. (PS Please supply the diff of where I called you a vandal. And referring you to WP:DICK is not the same thing as calling you a dick.) --Ideogram 18:13, 15 March 2007 (UTC)

Well, at least he is talking now. --Ideogram 18:44, 15 March 2007 (UTC)

Bishonen, Gangsta's comments seem to indicate he believes you support him in this affair. Given the concerns expressed at Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/InShaneee/Workshop, perhaps you should say something to discourage him. --Ideogram 19:02, 15 March 2007 (UTC)

I think I'll pass, I worry that that might encourage you. As for the "concerns" expressed at Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/InShaneee/Workshop", unless I'm missing something—is this the thread you had in mind?— those are just the standard attacks on me by Tony Sidaway, with the standard endorsements by you. That don't impress me much. Bishonen | talk 20:11, 15 March 2007 (UTC).

Do you condone Gangsta's statements and actions or not? Try to concentrate on the issue here instead of what you believe my relationship with Tony is. "you're the one who is stalking, disrupting, bullying, and POV pushing all over the place. Bishonen made that quite clear." Do you believe that or not? If you do believe it, speak up, I would be interested in hearing your reasoning. Do you think it would encourage me if you corrected his misconceptions? Do you think it would exacerbate the dispute if you "encouraged" me? --Ideogram 21:04, 15 March 2007 (UTC)

Do you think I am trying to impress you? --Ideogram 21:05, 15 March 2007 (UTC)

The real question here, Bishonen, is, are you ever willing to admit that a friend of yours has done something wrong? --Ideogram 21:26, 15 March 2007 (UTC)

Note from this that Gangsta knows perfectly well when consensus is against him and when it isn't; he just chooses to ignore it. --Ideogram 19:15, 15 March 2007 (UTC)

You're not in any position to accuse me this way since you're the one who is crusading to have me blocked and advocating a pro-China agenda. Your accusation is bogus. You use article talkpages as forums to gather support for your Rfc against me. We all know Taiwan-China relation is a delicate topic and the most important issue here is presenting encyclopedia reader with a neutral point of view. You need to cut the talk about consensus because in this case, a few people who endorse your change don't represent consensus. Of course, Taiwan vs. China is like David vs. Goliath so if we talk about consensus rather than content factuality than all Chinese editors will probably make these articles uneyclopedic and unreadable. At one time, you successfully obtained a 3RR block on me by presenting blatant lie and false accusation on this page (not to mention it's misplaced, it shouldn't be on AN/I). The blocking admin didn't do enough research. Then after another neutral and uninvolved user Bladestorm voiced his objection on my block above, instead of discussing constructively with him, you make veil threat and stalk his contributions and reported him for something that is uncalled for. A heated dispute occured soon after between you and bladestorm above and on Georgewilliamherbert's talkpage. You claim you represent consensus but all you're doing is stalking me all over the place, even in article you don't care about (John Profumo for example, you better apologize for your actions) Therefore, intentionally instigating me to edit war with you. Being incivil to Bish doesn't help your cause either. (especially watch what you're typing into the edit summary) With the way you edit right now, I'll be surprised if you're still around in the next couple of months.--Certified.Gangsta 21:45, 15 March 2007 (UTC)

Nothing you said in this post was relevant. --Ideogram 21:47, 15 March 2007 (UTC)

Nothing you ever say is relevant. You're showing a lack of respect for me, bladestorm (when counter by something you didn't like, you said you stopped reading), bishonen, and wikipedia as a whole.--Certified.Gangsta 21:50, 15 March 2007 (UTC)

Take it to ArbCom. I don't see any point to responding to you here anymore. --Ideogram 21:53, 15 March 2007 (UTC)

Except that you are. Would you please give it a rest. WP:DR is that-a-way. El_C 21:58, 15 March 2007 (UTC)

Yeah Doc already said this is misplaced since this is a content dispute. Then Ideogram unarchived it.--Certified.Gangsta 22:00, 15 March 2007 (UTC)

Note that Gangsta is threatening to edit war again. This is the reason I posted here in the first place, to get admins to keep an eye on him. --Ideogram 22:05, 15 March 2007 (UTC)

The real question is who started this mess? The answer is Ideogram himself. He now forces me to keep his preferred version while showing no effort to either discuss or compromise. Ideogram will no doubt edit war again if his preferred version is not kept.--Certified.Gangsta 22:08, 15 March 2007 (UTC)

Anyone can see at Talk:Culture of Taiwan that I have stated my reasons and you have not responded to them. --Ideogram 22:11, 15 March 2007 (UTC)

The only thing I see is you don't think other readers will be appealed to click in on the relevant articles. Blank statements serve no purpose here. I did respond. Stop making misleading accusations on AN/I.--Certified.Gangsta 22:13, 15 March 2007 (UTC)

That's not what I see. If you want to have this discussion it should be on Talk:Culture of Taiwan, not here. --Ideogram 22:21, 15 March 2007 (UTC)

True name privacy outing

Resolved

 – —Quarl ^(talk) 2007-03-14 10:33Z

(diff) This user's talk page was invaded by an IP editor of dispute-related pages, who outed him. This invasion occurred during an ongoing, simmering debate with another user, who was pressuring the talk page's user to admit some kind of prior involvement with an anti-cult organization off-Wiki. I request adminstrative deletion of the outing from the page history, protection of user's talk page from further editing by the IP editor, and whatever else is normally done to IPs in this situation. (I was a page debater, but not part of this debate, and don't know this IP# editor.) Milo 08:12, 11 March 2007 (UTC)

Yes, delete, toute suite, block IP and semiprotect user talk. Additionally, it would be worthwhile to determine the user behind the attacking IP.Proabivouac 08:23, 11 March 2007 (UTC)

Though, taking another look, outed user seems okay with it.[9] I shall request clarification.Proabivouac 08:25, 11 March 2007 (UTC)

I would indeed like it removed. Xanthius 18:25, 11 March 2007 (UTC)

User talk page deleted, restored without 4 revisions with personal information, request sent to WP:RFO. -- Avi 00:52, 12 March 2007 (UTC)

Somebody re-added it.. Xanthius 00:15, 13 March 2007 (UTC)

Err- nevermind

User page scrubbed, WP:RFO sent. Scrubbing THIS page will be a nightmare. Let's hope that since there is no last name for the aforementioned individual here, you'll be safer. -- Avi 05:18, 14 March 2007 (UTC)

Thanks! Xanthius 17:59, 14 March 2007 (UTC)

Pardon, maybe I don't know where/how to look, but I can't find User talk:Xanthius in the (semi) Protection Log. Also, was the invading IP# blocked? Milo 02:45, 15 March 2007 (UTC)

Xanthius, do you want your talk page semiprotected? —Quarl ^(talk) 2007-03-15 16:46Z

Yeah, that might help avoid future problems. Xanthius 16:58, 15 March 2007 (UTC)

Done. —Quarl ^(talk) 2007-03-15 18:22Z

Linkspamming Talk:Main Page linking to possibly explicit content

I've seen this at least twice by 2 different users, and I've only been checking at random. See for example: [10]. I've added all the domains to the spam blacklist that don't currently have external links in other articles. — BRIAN0918 • 2007-03-13 13:48Z

AGF Problem User:Okedem

Hi, Okedem is repeatedly reverting my edits to Allegations of Israeli Apartheid, I added a factual accuracy dispute tag and he reverted, saying I was a "troll making personal attacks". Please see User talk:Okedem#Apartheid, and THIS DIFF. ---MiddleEastern 15:36, 13 March 2007 (UTC)

I don't see anything wrong there. I looked at your userpage and you seem to have a large axe to grind. Please remember, Wikipedia is not a soapbox. If you've got issues on the page, the talk page is the first step. One Elephant went out to play... 15:39, 13 March 2007 (UTC)

I'd like to comment on the AGF - look at his edit here: [11]. Good faith? okedem 15:41, 13 March 2007 (UTC)

No sir, the problem is the removal of a tag, it is simply a more specific tag drawing attention to the faults of the article. --MiddleEastern 15:42, 13 March 2007 (UTC)

If you have issues, that's what the talk page is for. You do not deserve the protection of the AGF policy, as you have proven you're not acting in good faith, but to promote your agenda, however way possible. okedem 15:44, 13 March 2007 (UTC)

I'll also comment that he used his edits "adding a tag" to also remove sources and change the lead to his liking: [12]. okedem 15:47, 13 March 2007 (UTC)

I didn't I did an accidental revert to previous version, I did't mean to change the text, all users are covered with AGF, yes that's right.... even Palestinians --MiddleEastern 15:48, 13 March 2007 (UTC)

You have proven you are not acting in good faith. okedem 15:50, 13 March 2007 (UTC)

Please, administrators. I request outside opinion. I did not come here to argue with this man. --MiddleEastern 15:51, 13 March 2007 (UTC)

I'll quote from WP:AGF: "This guideline does not require that editors continue to assume good faith in the presence of evidence to the contrary." (emphasis in the original) There is evidence to the contrary, as provided by One Elephant and okedem. —bbatsell ¿? ✍ 15:50, 13 March 2007 (UTC)

I gave no insult, I ONLY ADDED A TAG! I have not vandalised or something. --MiddleEastern 15:53, 13 March 2007 (UTC)

Uh... THIS is pretty clear. Sorry. —bbatsell ¿? ✍ 16:06, 13 March 2007 (UTC)

One of my first edits, please present recent evidence --MiddleEastern 13:12, 14 March 2007 (UTC)

Oh, yesterday isn't recent enough? Your actions are obvious. You're not acting with good faith, but with a clear agenda, which is also clearly stated on your user page. okedem 13:31, 14 March 2007 (UTC)

Oh, by the way, this edit seems to be on the same line. Though it's a legitimate opinion, it also sheds more light on this user's political goals here. okedem 13:40, 14 March 2007 (UTC)

So a socialist Muslim cannot be respected, but a right wing American, who is a believer in Zionism and a devout Christian/Jew (and says so on his userpage) e.g User:LonghornJohnny, who it took me fives minutes to find can be respected! --MiddleEastern 14:13, 14 March 2007 (UTC)

I see MiddleEastern is doing some important encyclopedic work - creating some tags for harassing people: Template:De-sysop, Template:AdministratorsNoticeBoardDiscussion, Wikipedia:Template messages/UserPage Namespace, [13]. okedem 15:13, 14 March 2007 (UTC)

How dare you! I'm trying to do non-article maintanance to stay out of the way, is that alright by you? --MiddleEastern 18:16, 14 March 2007 (UTC)

Of course we assume good faith and do not bite newcomers, but so far User:MiddleEastern caused nothing but disruption. ←Humus sapiens ^ну? 20:38, 14 March 2007 (UTC)

How can it be fair for two JEWISH editors to make decisions about me! Of course their judgement will be effected, they probably live in the country were this fight is happening, just as I do, albeit they live in the safe and army protected area --MiddleEastern 14:07, 15 March 2007 (UTC)

MiddleEastern, you are not being persecuted for your ethnicity or beliefs. You ARE being criticized for being disruptive. You have made offensive statements and allegations at your RfA, the MfD for your subpage, and in this very thread, just for starters. You on track for a community ban in short order if your attitude does not improve. Editing Wikipedia is a privilage that can be revoked, not an inalienable right. The diff that you point out at the beginning of this thread is misleading because you removed quite a bit of content from the article and made no reference to that in your edit summary. And one more thing: even though it is completely irrelevant to the matter at hand, I am not a "Jewish editor". A Train ^{take the} 15:47, 15 March 2007 (UTC)

inapropriate name

Resolved

 – already blcoked--VectorPotential^Talk 17:32, 13 March 2007 (UTC)

User:G W BUSH IS A TERRORIST It dishonors the U.S president —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Bloddyfriday (talk • contribs) 17:26, 13 March 2007 (UTC). Sorry forgot to sign Bloddyfriday 17:28, 13 March 2007 (UTC)

"Dishonoring a president" seems to be missing from WP:U, but "Harassing or defamatory usernames" seems to cover the situation. - CHAIRBOY (☎) 17:31, 13 March 2007 (UTC)

Already blocked, in the future please report obvious usernamevios / vandals to WP:AIV--VectorPotential^Talk 17:31, 13 March 2007 (UTC)

sorry. Bloddyfriday 17:33, 13 March 2007 (UTC)

No prob, just a request for the future. - CHAIRBOY (☎) 17:34, 13 March 2007 (UTC)

Um, in order to dishonor a person, that said person has to have honor in the first place. (joke) Hbdragon88 00:18, 14 March 2007 (UTC)

I object - Wikipedia is not censored, George W Bush is technically a terrorist, i.e he causes terror by death --MiddleEastern 13:14, 14 March 2007 (UTC)

Uh, moving on... --AAA! ^(AAAA) 07:57, 15 March 2007 (UTC)

Bolzano talk page

IMHO User:Taalo's way of communication is a problem. After protection of the page Bolzano we have been discussing the issue (Talk:Bolzano#Order of Names), but Taalo is continuously breaking most simple rules of politeness. I have been trying to react by deleting offensive contributions, instead of reacting offensively and disruptively myself. Taalo has now reverted even these edits, starting a kind of edit war even on a talk page. I would just like to have a productive discussion, but I cannot continue this way. Please look at Taalo's last contributions on that page. We have been occupied by useless warring, please help stop it. -- PhJ 19:06, 13 March 2007 (UTC)

That's what you get from someone who went to the University of Michigan... (semi-)kidding aside though, diffs would be helpful here.--Isotope23 19:13, 13 March 2007 (UTC)

Bastich. :P This user is blanking edits on talk pages after already a warning from an Admin. See comment by Wknight94 here [14]. Also, see posting here on his talk page: [15]. This User PhJ has also been crying wolf (vandalism) previous to this: [16]. I.e., anything he dislikes he goes crying to the noticeboards (which IMHO is abuse in itself). See his past claim of vandalism that was dismissed [17]. Bottom line, it is not up to this user to decide saying hey ladin dude is a personal attack (which it definitely was not). There is some irony, because actually with all the blanking PhJ does, he is asking himself for some time off..hah. Anyway, Go blue. :P Taalo 19:37, 13 March 2007 (UTC)

These three diffs should be enough: [18], [19], [20] -- PhJ 06:16, 14 March 2007 (UTC) (sorry, forgot to sign)

• enough for what? look, maybe be concerned with your own communication and politeness. It isn't so black-and-white like you try to make it, that you are the good guy and I'm the bad guy. Could it be even slightly possible that since you are not a native English speaker, that you may take things like "hey ladin dude" as offensive, when they are actually friendly? Could it be a bit possible that you are instigating edit wars by doing things which are against wikipedia policies? Taalo 23:16, 13 March 2007 (UTC)

There are circumstances where anything but addressing one by proper name (or user name, respectively) can be felt as an offense. Obviously Emes didn't like it ("This was a personal attack"). I woudln't like to be called even friend by you either, and you should know that. So, I think, it is now up to you to remove these edits, I won't anymore. -- PhJ 06:16, 14 March 2007 (UTC)

ohkayyyy o_O Listen, the bottom line is that you can't go around and censor other's edits, full stop. Try and muster an apology for doing that if you can. If you have such problems that even hearing friend gets your knickers in a bind.. well I don't think anyone here can help you. Lets just agree to disagree, and go about our own way. Taalo 08:50, 14 March 2007 (UTC)

I agree - with your last sentence. So just let's stop this kind of debate and let's talk about improving the pages, as far as it is possible. -- PhJ 12:22, 14 March 2007 (UTC)

PhJ: hear, hear. Taalo 17:46, 14 March 2007 (UTC)

I think that there are obviously a ton of problems relating to this issue, and because of that both of you (and everyone else involved) needs to be extra careful to not to do anything which could be interpreted as a personal attack, even if it was not meant to be one, and to follow all of the appropriate policies and guidelines. Blanking talk pages or selectively filtering them is not acceptable under any circumstances barring extreme and obvious cases. —METS501 (talk) 20:53, 13 March 2007 (UTC)

I agree with Mets501 here. Both PhJ and Taalo have been incorrect, and I don't feel this needs to be elevated so high. Taalo needs to calm down and not take things so personally (and take care in the words he uses), however, PhJ has chosen to blatanly violate wiki rules while in the same breath attempt to report Taalo on the admin boards. PhJ blanked out comments on a talk page that he disagreed with (and were not necessarily a personal attack). Mets501 has stated this well, gentlemen. Both of you need to be careful with what you say or do so that it is not construed as a personal attack. PhJ - you need to understand that you clearly violate wiki policy by removing someone else's words from a talk page that you, yourself, deem inappropriate without the actions of an admin. This can be construed as vandalism or otherwise. So next time you disagree, state it on the talk page, attempt to communicate offline with Taalo (or on his talk page), or get the attention of an admin BEFORE you attempt to remove comments and violate wiki rules yourself. And for God's sake, Taalo - calm down and let this process breathe and we'll reach a more neutral and viable solution for all! :) Rarelibra 17:54, 14 March 2007 (UTC)

Oi, why am only I being asked to calm down? :P I'm quite calm actually, however I can't just be quiet when my posts are deleted/edited/moved and I'm being declared problematic or anti-German. o_O This week I: reverted PhJ's edits, said hey ladin dude to Martin, and reverted PhJ's "editing" of Bolzano talk. Bad Taalo, bad! :} Anyway, yes, please.. neutral/fair solution. All I've wanted from the beginning. later... Taalo 22:57, 14 March 2007 (UTC)

Agreed. Looking back at my message to Emes last Fall, I feel quite bad I stated things in such a way (that he should seek a mental professional). At the time I was just amazed how much anger he was displaying (beyond his threat to leave en.wikipedia). But, I'm being censored because I say "By (sic) God"? Are there rules against blasphemy, as PhJ puts it? o_O Regardless, the selective filtering he is doing is completely out of line and really makes this feel like some sort of war. Doing something like this [21] is like a wiki-censorship service? :-) Taalo 21:26, 13 March 2007 (UTC)

I have to agree that User:Taalo's behaviour is quite problematic and the tone does not comply with Wikiquette or anything else for that matter. Users who are not the same opinion are accused of POVs, being "German" or whatever, every opposing comment gets inundated with a flood of comments that anyone reading this looses interest sooner or later. At the moment the user seems quite interested in pushing through a strange latter-day Italo-nationalism on issues concerning South Tyrol, Trentino-South Tyrol, Bolzano, Merano, etc. Quite unfortunate IMO. My comments to this user's behaviour will probably provoke another flood of comments from User:Taalo, something that is to be expected. Wikiquette alerts have been registered previously, so far to no avail. I can only hope this user will mature and respect other opinions some day. sincerely Gryffindor 15:19, 14 March 2007 (UTC)

Laughable. You are by no means impartial in this debate, and popping your head into this particular discussion is something I find quite reprehensible. It was you who initiated this whole argument by forcing some strange latter-day nationalist push for names which are not even common English usage. You moved a page unilaterally and without consensus. A poll was done after the fact and no consensus was found to move the page back to the common English usage, so it got stuck with your odd POV for all this time. This was flat out wrong, and you know it (and should know it as an Admin). What really gets me is you do this and never apologize or feel you did anything at all wrong (even though this debate now of almost two years clearly shows you initiated something very wrong, that has in the end hurt many feelings). You have user PhJ here who also breaks protocol by going through and selectively editing out user comments. Instead of either of you taking any responsibility what-so-ever for both of your actions, you make personal attacks on me: the one who called you both out incidentally. hmm. So where is the maturity? Where is the respect? At least I have the courage to make apologies when I find I did something wrong. I have both Italian and German heritage, and have roots in this region back to Roman times. I've only wanted a fair solution, it is you who push some strange German POV. Being I AM German, I have every right to self-criticize and I will certainly not have someone such as you telling me what to do. I have been quite saddened at the German group-think, and I have every right to be! Now, as I've told PhJ, I've really had my fill of you all. As far as I'm concerned, that neither of you have the capability to see anything wrong in what you do, and simply try to make this so black and white that I'm bad and you guys are good, just accents this giant waste of time. But you know what, my field is Engineering, from your user page I see yours is Politics. So, please, just go along your own way. Taalo 17:22, 14 March 2007 (UTC)

• Lastly. This discussion was about reverting edits on Bolzano's talk page. Edits which were against Wikipedia policy by selectively editing out other editor's sentences. A mature approach might be for both PhJ and Gryffindor to stick to this topic, without trying to divert this into a referendum against me (i.e. take responsibility for your own actions). Taalo 17:31, 14 March 2007 (UTC)

I asked Taalo to remove his "message" to me (Talk:Bolzano#Ok, that is about enough), which does not belong on that page because it is disruptive for other users who just want to discuss the Bolzano article. I ask hereby for approval by an admin to delete it myself (as I'd be free to do it on my talk page, where it actually belongs). -- PhJ 20:39, 14 March 2007 (UTC)

o_O Taalo 22:53, 14 March 2007 (UTC)

Talk:Essjay controversy & User:QuackGuru

QuackGuru (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · nuke contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) has been heavily editing/commenting on the Essjay controversy talk page, and it's becoming a bit disruptive, as pointed out to him by multiple people. could some admins take a look into this? it's been everything from practically waging war on the article (which he spilled over into other articles) over whether Wales or Sanger is founder of WP, to formatting, to sourcing, to... well, everything. We have tried to work with him and even offered compromise but it seems to be going nowhere, and appears to be the last lingering drama on this entire otherwise stablized/correctly sourced/written/now NPOV mess. I would appreciate it if some admins could have a word with him, as it's disruptive to the other editors there. thank you. - Denny 21:50, 13 March 2007 (UTC)

This comment might be what is inciting him... - Denny 21:52, 13 March 2007 (UTC)

Bad advice can do a lot of damage. ^High_InBC^{(Need help? Ask me)} 21:54, 13 March 2007 (UTC)

Interesting. He's made his userpage into a version of the article, presumably the one he keeps trying to force on everyone else. Dev920 (Have a nice day!) 21:55, 13 March 2007 (UTC)

Even more interesting, he just blanked it... Dev920 (Have a nice day!) 21:56, 13 March 2007 (UTC)

He was warned earlier about a 3rr vio. Gwen Gale 21:57, 13 March 2007 (UTC)

I've participated (very minimally) in the talk page, so I'm recusing myself, but I must agree with Denny about this user. To be honest, the whole endeavor has smelled fishy to me. Risker (talk · contribs) and several others (such as Denny) have done an admirable job at attempting to appease all of QG's numerous whimsical problems with the article, but it's been incredibly burdensome so far. I can't call it outright disruption, though. —bbatsell ¿? ✍ 22:01, 13 March 2007 (UTC)

So far, seven editors have made or endorsed statements about QuackGuru which use the term disruption. Gwen Gale 22:16, 13 March 2007 (UTC)

I suspect that User:HighInBC has hit the nail on the head. I couldn't find anything specific in WP:USER to press the issue of the copy of the article on User:QuackGuru's userpage, though I did leave him a message about how to create a sandbox. Risker 22:28, 13 March 2007 (UTC)

This is really getting out of hand. I've struck my earlier comment that I can't call it disruption, because I can. It is. —bbatsell ¿? ✍ 20:09, 14 March 2007 (UTC)

This is getting out of hand when other editors make abnormal remarks towards me.

http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Essjay_controversy&diff=next&oldid=115144987

http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk%3AEssjay_controversy&diff=115142598&oldid=115142331

http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Essjay_controversy&diff=next&oldid=115143831

This in not fair. QuackGuru ^TALK 20:39, 14 March 2007 (UTC)

I stand by my edits to QuackGuru. Moreover, given QuackGuru's disruption, I personally find both his signature and username exacerbating to it. Gwen Gale 21:07, 14 March 2007 (UTC)

Problem user?

I'm not sure what can be done of if action is even merited, but I want to bring attention to a certain user who seems to be just charging ahead without actually knowing what they're doing. The user in question is User:Lt. Col. Cole (talk/contribs). I noticed some pretty bad grammar in one of this users contributions so I corrected it then did a little poking to see if this was a one time thing or it was consistent. When I looked over this users contribs I found that there is a history of uploading images without proper tag (several of which have been deleted), and a few cases where he/she is just duplicating content which is eventually redirected by another user (I did one). See these...

• 50 Cal. MG
• Russia In World War Two
• GW Pat.90

This user is fairly new but much has been posted to his/her talk page. Not listening I guess, or just doesn't know how. What to do? Anything? (Admittedly, I might not even be in the right place posting this concern here, but I think I am.) —Thernlund ^{(Talk | Contribs)} 22:58, 13 March 2007 (UTC)

I’ve gone through Special:Log/Lt. Col. Cole and tagged the images. The user is either acting in extremely misguided good faith or vandalising (the warning about not uploading images from websites is hard to miss…). The text contributions seem to be in good faith, though. Would somebody talk to the user? —xyzzy_n 16:47, 14 March 2007 (UTC)

…And the user has reverted my tags, blanked his or her talk page and uploaded more non-free images with bogus tags. I’d say this means the user doesn’t want to care about copyright issues, which would be fine if he or she wouldn’t upload images. Suggestions? —xyzzy_n 21:30, 14 March 2007 (UTC)

Suggest one more last warning and escalating blocks if nothing changes.-- _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk}  15:55, 15 March 2007 (UTC)

Sockpuppet

User:69.132.199.100 is a blatantly obvious sockpuppet of User:69.132.198.252, the disruptor of the Shelby Young page. You'll see he "calls me out" in this diff: http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Shelby_Young&diff=prev&oldid=114878446

Pretty obvious. No checkuser necessary.

Cheers Ispy1981 00:21, 14 March 2007 (UTC)

How in the world can one be a sock puppet of the other, when a sock puppet, by definition, is "an additional username used by a Wikipedian who edits under more than one name"? In this case, there isn't even one username, let alone two? What's more, there's no evidence provided of any attempts to avoid a ban or other disciplinary action, nor an attempt to increase the perceived support for any particular campaign. In short, there is no sockpuppet there.

By the way, even if they're the same person, there's not even any reason to assume that they're trying to appear under a different IP address. They're both simply coming from Road Runner accounts. It's my understanding that Road Runner assigns dynamic IP addresses, no? Bladestorm 01:10, 14 March 2007 (UTC)

he is follow me and have many friend harass me so i ignore or try ignore but is not do good for me he follow me around. 69.132.199.100 00:54, 15 March 2007 (UTC)

The "many friends" in question include an admin and a well-known user. In fact, I think those are the only two who "follow" him "around", warning him against his disruptive editing practices. As for me, I have the Shelby Young pages that on my watchlist, hence I'm able to view any changes he and others make. The whole issue stems from a credit, which was disputed by myself and some others. I spoke with a few editors, did a Google, and was satisfied Shelby had, in fact, been involved in the film. A sort of "silent consensus" has been reached, in the fact that no other user has tried to remove the credit and the fact that the actual Shelby, Shelbyyoung, has, in fact stated her involvement in the film. He has moved on, all right, to trashing Shelby's usertalk page, claiming it's not her, and that the photo she provided (now not in existence in Wikipedia) was photoshopped. The identity of Shelbyyoung was confirmed here by bbatsell a few days ago.

To address Bladestorm's statement, yes, a sockpuppet is an additional username used by a Wikipedian who edits under more than one name. However, IP addresses here are treated as usernames. Yes they are both coming from roadrunner accounts. However, a reverse DNS of both shows they come from rr.res.carolina, or something to that effect and, doing an IP check on www.ip-address.com, they are coming very close to one another. The original "puppetmaster" was trying to avoid disciplinary action per his constant edit warring, and I beg to differ on the "increased support for a particular campaign". He has tried to have the credit removed several times, claiming that "because IMDB doesn't list the credit". IMDB also didn't have a page for Emma Fenton, an actress who worked on the same film as Shelby. They had AN Emma Fenton, a producer who began producing when the OTHER Emma Fenton was a mere toddler, and listed the actress Emma Fenton's credit in with the others, until an eagle-eyed contributor (hi!) brought it to there attention. In short, his argument about IMDB being an undisputed source in this matter is faulty. Also, he has tried, in his own "unique" way, to have others agree to the credit removal.

I don't know what he has against Shelby, but two things remain certain: 1. Unless there is good reason to remove it, the credit stays. 2. I don't know what he's trying to accomplish here. Regardless of whether or not the credit is on Wiki, it's on her resume. No casting director is going to turn her down for a role on the basis of a Wiki page. It's not harming her or her career in any way. It just harms the encyclopedia. Put it this way. I have writing credits. I also do not have a Wiki page. Does this mean I don't deserve credit for what's on my resume? Ispy1981 14:52, 15 March 2007 (UTC)

Big Trouble in Little China

There are very siuspicious edis going on to Chinese - and specifically Hong Kong - articles involving one relatively new user and one brand new user, with the usernames Privacy (talk · contribs) and Secrecy (talk · contribs). One will edit the page one way (usually involving the term "Mainland China"), then the other will come along and edit it back. Call me suspicious, and apologies to both if I'm wrong, but it looks like user:Instantnood and user: Huaiwei using socks to get around their bans on editing specific pages. Grutness...wha? 01:21, 14 March 2007 (UTC)

• This could also go here. By the way, User:Privacy is an editor of two years, not exactly "relatively new." — MichaelLinnear 02:12, 14 March 2007 (UTC)
  • I have not investigated, but I have experience with Instantnood and Huaiwei and this does not seem like their MO. --Ideogram 02:42, 14 March 2007 (UTC)
    • Can you provide the page differences so we can investigate on the suspected issue? AQu01rius (User • Talk) 04:21, 14 March 2007 (UTC)
      • You can find the diffs yourself. It's not hard. Look at the two contributions histories from the past couple of days and pick any page that the two have in common. Uncle G 17:02, 14 March 2007 (UTC)

This is just the tip of the iceberg. There are a ton of very mysterious "new" users editing China/Taiwan pages lately that immediately make either very POV or very obscure edits. Takes these for example: Special:Contributions/Quitepick, Special:Contributions/Trendsure. Two users with names that are 5letter/4letter random word combos. The first four contributions of each two are the same edits made to two different articles. If those aren't socks of existing users I'll eat some clothing. And of those, there are a few more. I'm betting on finding some edit/move wars on sprotected pages soon.

In this specific instance though, I find it hilarious that Secrecy follows Privacy to vote pages and comments on the three users who showed up after Instantnoods disappearance. Secrecy obviously isn't Huaiwei. I've never seen Huaiwei run sockpuppets and he is never afraid to play the revert games with those he suspects of being sockpuppets using his own account. He's also not banned from editing any of the articles Secrecy reverted (I don't think) as the OP suggests. SchmuckyTheCat 21:45, 14 March 2007 (UTC)

Secrecy seems to be actively trying to disrupt Instantnood's Sandbox. Privacy has left a DRV notice on Instantnood's talk page, which seems like a totally unnecessary bit of misdirection since he could just ignore Instantnood and no one would be the wiser. --Ideogram 22:01, 14 March 2007 (UTC)

On closer inspection Privacy seems to be a problem editor. I hope people will keep a close eye on him. --Ideogram 22:31, 14 March 2007 (UTC)

I personally noted at least three editors who's edits are a source of personal concern. I doubt it will be constructive to the site if I were to try prevent this recent spat of edits (and run the risk of violating ArbCom rulings once again), so I plead for help from the community.--Huaiwei 23:11, 14 March 2007 (UTC)

Looking at the claim "Secrecy seems to be actively trying to disrupt Instantnood's Sandbox." And, well, Instantnood's sandbox needs disrupting. He's storing a bunch of his classic POV forks and they show up in Google searches. This one [22] shows up higher than the primary article depending on the order of the words. That is a discussion for MfD that can wait until he returns. SchmuckyTheCat 02:38, 15 March 2007 (UTC)

I have tagged all these pages with {{Userpage otheruse}}. --Ideogram 12:00, 15 March 2007 (UTC)

Brought up this topic at Wikipedia:Village pump (policy)#User pages on Google. --Ideogram 12:46, 15 March 2007 (UTC)

I may be speculating, but I cant help but wonder if there is a possibility of users creating sockpuppets, using these to revert one's own edit or POV, and then subsequently pinning the blame squarely on the other party, particularly when charges of sockpuppetry are pressed on them. Of course, the same scenario may be applied by me as well, but whatever the case, I hope investigations will be thorough, transparent, and not based purely on subjectivity and assumptions.--Huaiwei 09:28, 15 March 2007 (UTC)

I don't see any evidence of this. --Ideogram 12:00, 15 March 2007 (UTC)

I'm not going to speculate as to who might be whose sockpuppet, though it's hard not to suspect various sorts of co-ordinated editing, at the least, and what are close -- or in a couple of cases, right in the middle of -- being SPA accounts (whether socks or fresh recruits to 'the cause'). There's a legimate content issue in here somewhere (how to refer to, and whether to categorise by, the entity-that-used-to-be-the-PRC-pre-1997, now somewhat inexactly and less than formally refered to as "mainland China"), but there doesn't seem to be a clear-cut consensus on it at present, and very clearly there's no willingness to "leave well enough alone" on either side, much less to achieve even pro temps consistency either way. As less than ideal as the heavy-handed resolution of the "highways" issue was, I'm beginning to think that something similar might be required here. Preferably not "policy by narrow majority vote", but at least a solution to be adopted pending definitive resolution, and some fairly zealous enforcement of the "cease fire line", whatever that turns out to be. Alai 03:54, 15 March 2007 (UTC)

I've been trying to have a discussion on this very issue at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject China#Naming conventions, but it is going slowly. So far the votes are exactly split between leaving things alone, and applying "China" as the common name of the PRC. Ironically, many of those who want to leave things alone think it will be less edit-warring. --Ideogram 11:44, 15 March 2007 (UTC)

James McStub (talk · contribs)

Resolved

 – --Jersey Devil 02:35, 14 March 2007 (UTC)

Thread retitled from "I'm trying to leave wikipedia".

but can't before someone checks this out http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Contributions/James_McStub Carptrash 02:21, 14 March 2007 (UTC)

No policy violation, just removal of spam photobucket picture links. Case resolved.--Jersey Devil 02:35, 14 March 2007 (UTC)

Hold on. When the user is deleting these links, the other text inside the link is also being deleted. like this one, or worse, this one. Looks like an unapproved automated task malfunctioning. Gimmetrow 03:10, 14 March 2007 (UTC)

Yes, I would like a second opinion in this matter. Carptrash 03:12, 14 March 2007 (UTC)

My apologies, I thought the complaint was solely regarding the type of links he was removing. It looks like the account was preforming a malfunctioning automated task. I will block it indefinitely.--Jersey Devil 03:15, 14 March 2007 (UTC)

Thanks. Now could you point me to the policy that all photobucket/imageshack links are forbidden? In some cases they might be fair use, such as the old image removed in this edit. I don't know if it is, but where would this be hashed out? Gimmetrow 03:29, 14 March 2007 (UTC)

WP:EL would be a good start. --Edokter (Talk) 13:07, 14 March 2007 (UTC)

It's not blacklisted, so "All links are forbidden" is not a judgement that seems supportable. --Random832 13:14, 15 March 2007 (UTC)

What happens to the mess that the user left behind? Katr67 14:39, 14 March 2007 (UTC)

Perhaps the admin who prematurely Resolved the issue can deal with it? Sort of a penance or something?" It might slow down his/her trigger finger a bit. Carptrash 15:39, 14 March 2007 (UTC)

Personal Attacks by 66.93.144.171

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

---

Both parties agree to cool off a bit, and go their separate ways for a time. -- Avi 00:48, 15 March 2007 (UTC)

Resolved

 – Will wait and see if problematic edits stop.

66.93.144.171 has publicly accused me of cyberstalking several times over the last few days. Cyberstalking is a serious ethical and criminal matter, and I can assure everyone I do not do it. This user first made this accusation in response to a single comment I made about one of his/her edits (in fact, my first post ever directed towards this person). That initial accusation is here (note the part where I am called a "known cyberstalker"): [[23]]

This user then accused me of cyberstalking here: [[24]] . Note that despite the policy that users should be notified if someone has made an accusation against them, I was not notified about the post about me in the incident archive --- I only found out about this accusation because another user emailed me.

In response to this accusation I voiced my concerns that this user seems to have a history of violating WP:CIVIL here: [[25]]. Note at the bottom of this post 66.93.144.171 again accuses me of cyberstalking.

Finally, I just found out today that 66.93.144.171 has shifted to making accusations of cyberstalking on Jreferee's talk page, again without notifying me of the accusation. That accusation is here: [[26]]

To summarize, 66.93.144.171 is making unfounded and serious accusations against me, and appears to be deliberately hiding these accusations from me to deny me the chance to set the record straight. This appears to be a concerted effort to sully my name in revenge for disagreement over a single edit, and I believe it violates WP:CIVIL and WP:NPA, at least.

Can anyone help me stop this behavior? SkipSmith 05:21, 14 March 2007 (UTC)

Uhm, Skip, you have a history of rampant sockpuppet use, and I know personally that you stalked myself and user:TheActuary here from the Actuarial Outpost, and shall we begin to discuss your (and your friends)little website started when y'all were banned from the Outpost? It doesn't feel so good, does it? . Regardless, I'll look into this anon's comments for you. -- Avi 05:34, 14 March 2007 (UTC)

Ugh. Hey Avi, long time no talk --- thanks for checking this out for me. Now, on to the sparring: the best way to settle your sockpuppetry and stalking accusations would have been to do a CheckUser, which would have revealed that I didn't do anything wrong. For some reason this was never done, and I've still got these accusations hanging over my head because nobody could be bothered to investigate a sock puppet case correctly. As far as the non-wiki stuff you brought up, I was banned from the Outpost because I protested the treatment of Abducens (who by the way, was ultimately reinstated, but refused to return). I never had anything to do with the protest site --- again, a CheckUser several months ago would have cleared that up. On second thought, maybe it's good that nobody did a CheckUser on me --- I wouldn't want to get a fax at work ... SkipSmith 05:58, 14 March 2007 (UTC)

After looking at the edits brought, I agree that your initial comment telling him not to hyperventilate was not the worst edit, and should have been laughed off. However, you do play into his hands by commenting under every one of his edits. There are, at best, a minor lacking of good faith on all sides here. I would suggest you let sleeping dogs lie, and ignore this issue. Likely it will die down. If it does not, there is always dispute resolution, but a little time may be all that is needed. If it escalates, bring it back here. -- Avi 06:01, 14 March 2007 (UTC)

Avi, there is something you need to understand. I did not leave the comment I did based solely on his edit. This user has cyberstalked me for years over various websites. He came to that article simply because I mentioned it in my blog. I did not file my complaint because of the content of his comment, but because of WHO he was. If claiming that he is cyberstalking me is such a painful lack of civility, then this user only needs to finally learn how to do one thing: LEAVE ME ALONE. - 66.93.144.171 18:40, 14 March 2007 (UTC)

Or you could leave a message on my talk page, as the anon did to Jref. There isn't anything wrong with that per se -- Avi 06:03, 14 March 2007 (UTC)

Thanks Avi. Yeah, I was debating whether to kid around with my edit on that page because I didn't want to offend anyone, but I had no idea it would set someone off like that. I remember how upset you were when you misunderstood me and thought I was accusing you of harassment [[27]], so you can imagine how I felt when this person unfairly accused me of cyberstalking. However, it appears that nobody is taking this person's accusations seriously, and as long as he/she doesn't make a habit of libel, I'm willing to forgive and forget. SkipSmith 06:14, 14 March 2007 (UTC)

I think that's the best, but feel free to drop me a line if you need. -- Avi 06:29, 14 March 2007 (UTC)

Thanks Avi. SkipSmith 06:32, 14 March 2007

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Block on User:Gnetwerker

I received an e-mail from Gnetwerker (talk · contribs) in which he states that he is indefinitely blocked for no valid reason that he understands, and in which he asks to be allowed to edit again as long as he stays within policy. Now I am unfamiliar with this user, but a casual glance at his talk page shows there's quite a bit of nastiness going around, although he denies most of it, and I note several {{unblock}} requests denied by several admins. Based on that I wonder whether he should be allowed to edit again, or whether he should be considered under community ban. >Radiant< 11:50, 14 March 2007 (UTC)

It's hard for the rest of the community to evaluate a ban since we don't have access to the checkuser information. I mean, I have every reason to trust Jayjg and SlimVirgin's decision; but for me to vote for a community ban, to my mind, would mean something else. So I guess I'm saying I would accept the status quo. --Ideogram 12:03, 14 March 2007 (UTC)

I would suggest that a reason for the block besides You've been blocked indefinitely, and you know why. Please don't bother with the protestations of innocence, they ring hollow. would bring clarity. Catchpole 12:15, 14 March 2007 (UTC)

He was a pain, and I can't say that I'm sorry to see him gone — but I agree that the reason given for the indefinite block is close to being an abuse. The actual reason needs to be given. --Mel Etitis (Talk) 13:21, 14 March 2007 (UTC)

Gnetwerker spent several months harassing IronDuke after they got into a content dispute that went to mediation and the ArbCom in January 2006. The harassment consisted of posting ID's personal details; creating sockpuppets to post complaints about ID on AN/I; and inventing user names that mimicked ID. After several months of putting up with it, ID asked me for help, at which point Gnetwerker turned on me too, and has since posted what he thinks are my personal details several times, which he's copied from an attack site.

He vehemently denies the sockpuppetry even when it's obviously him. For example, on July 24, 2006, as Anomicene (talk · contribs), he posted one of his frequent complaints on AN/I about ID. During the discussion, he made the classic sockpuppet error of forgetting which account he'd logged in as, and posted as Gnetwerker; he then tried to retrieve the situation by pretending Gnetwerker was simply joining the discussion. Even when the sockpuppetry was this obvious, he still protested his innocence. Here are his known and suspected sockpuppets.

After many warnings stretching over almost a year, he was blocked indefinitely in December 2006 for posting personal details. I e-mailed several ArbCom members about the situation a few weeks before the block, and I understand the entire ArbCom was alerted to the proposed block just before it happened. Since then, he has written to everyone he can think of to try to get them to kick up a fuss on his behalf, including at least one bureaucrat (trying to get a name change), and an appeal to the ArbCom, which was turned down.

At any point throughout this, including now, he could simply have opened a new account and started editing quietly; if he'd behaved, no one would have known it was him. But instead, what he wants is to cause me to have to write this kind of explanation, endlessly, in response to his many e-mails to other admins. He then picks apart what I've written and tries to use it as the basis of another complaint, which is why I don't want to go into more detail. I'll e-mail more information to the admins who've responded here. SlimVirgin ^(talk) 14:29, 14 March 2007 (UTC)

That seems reasonable to me. I wish that the notice of the block had been more factual and dispassionate, though. --Mel Etitis (Talk) 14:35, 14 March 2007 (UTC)

To mildly counteract the echo-chamber effect, let me add this: the events that SlimVirgin describe happened in July 2006, whereas the block (which amounts to a non-community-sanctioned ban) did not occur until December. I don't think it was the case that it took her and Jayjg five months to weigh the evidence. Something occurred -- even I'm not certain what -- that they ascribe to me, and I got blocked in the crossfire. I am sure that if there was evidence it would be presented. There is no record of a checkuser connecting me with any account past the one incident in July, which I explained to everyone involved. In reference to the ArbCom case, there were more votes to hear it than not, but a failure to hear an unblock case does not make a community ban (its final state can be seen here). WP:BLOCK states that "indefinite blocks of established users are always controversial". If I am to be community-banned, please do it correctly on WP:CN, stating the reasons and giving me a chance to (briefly) argue my case. If SlimVirgin and Jayjg would rather not bring their "evidence" to that venue, then I ask (as I have been offline) to be afforded my putative Right to Vanish. Finally, let me post a question. My reading of WP:BLOCK, in distinction to WP:BAN, is that accounts are blocked, and if one is indef-blocked, in the absence of a community ban of the user in quetion, he or she is free to create another account and edit, provided of course, that the behavior that caused the block is not repeated. Is this a correct reading? -- Gnetwerker 15:55, 14 March 2007 (UTC)

• I suspect you are at present community banned by the old definition, which is that of a thousand admins not one can be found who is willing to unblock you. And, as Slim suggests, you could simply open a new account and start editing quietly; if you'd behave, no one would know it was you. But per Slim's explanation and yours, let me ask simply - are there objections to a "formal" community ban? >Radiant< 16:19, 14 March 2007 (UTC)

• The counter-example of this would seem to be User:BurningCandy who, despite not actually being me, was indef-blocked by SlimVirgin as "a suspected sockpuppet of banned user Gnetwerker". The "no other admin will unblock" rule seems to fail to take into account the power of the blocking admins. I have had more than one admin say privately I shouldn't have been indef'd, but that they can't take action because it would put them on the wrong side of two very powerful people. But let me repeat: block me, ban me -- that is up to the community here, no problem. But if you do, please allow me my Right to Vanish. -- Gnetwerker 17:26, 14 March 2007 (UTC)

User:Slimvirgin, a sysop, should not individually hold the kind of power described above. I would support taking this to arbcom. --Random832 00:38, 15 March 2007 (UTC) Regardless, User:BurningCandy should be unblocked _immediately_ as Gnetwerker is not, at present, a banned user. Falsely making such a claim does not put SlimVirgin's argument in a particularly good light. --Random832 00:40, 15 March 2007 (UTC)

It is stated above that the matter was already taken to ArbCom, which declined to hear the case. If Gnetworker has further evidence to present he can e-mail the arbitrators' mailing list, but it sounds like they are already familiar with the situation. Newyorkbrad 00:44, 15 March 2007 (UTC)

How about User:SlimVirgin posts whatever evidence was the basis for it to WP:CN and proposes a community ban? The burden should NOT be on Gnetwerker to initiate this. --Random832 02:15, 15 March 2007 (UTC)

Personal attacks

User:West Bank Boy describing changes he'd made to Al-Nas, used the word infidel. Because the previous edit was made by me, I have the right to suspect that this word was a reference to me (I believe in Allah, so this word is the worse offense to me). The user is also keeping on making wxtremely POV edits (such as this one). Al-Bargit 15:57, 14 March 2007 (UTC)

Perhaps you should read WP:NPA. ---J.S (T/C/WRE) 16:03, 14 March 2007 (UTC)

Hmmm that edit is highly POV and that name makes me suspect the account is here to make a point. I'll look a little deeper into this. ---J.S (T/C/WRE) 16:06, 14 March 2007 (UTC)

West Bank Boy (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) -- lots of uncivil edit summaries. Appears to be some POV-pushing going on, but I don't know enough about Islam to say definitively. Article creation such as Islam inside Hungarians (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) suggest a disruptive editor, however. -- TedFrank 16:07, 14 March 2007 (UTC)

I've also had concerns about his behaviour, after seeing his edits at Battle of Baia today. Myself and another user have raised these on his talk-page today, and I was thinking about going to RFC if this does not produce any change in his behaviour. He's not been here long by the looks of it, so it may just be that he needs sometime to absorb Wikiquette. David Underdown 16:16, 14 March 2007 (UTC)

His latest edits on his talkpage do rather suggest a single purpose account [28] David Underdown 11:07, 15 March 2007 (UTC)

I've just left them a note as an informal last warning. -- FayssalF - ^{Wiki me up ®} 11:35, 15 March 2007 (UTC)

Good call. Such behaviour should not be tolerated.-- _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk}  15:52, 15 March 2007 (UTC)

Template vandalism to main page FA

Resolved

 – Penises gone. —Quarl ^(talk) 2007-03-15 18:09Z

Appears that someone has managed to tamper with one of the templates on today's mainpage FA, Same-sex marriage in Spain. There are images of penises floating above it. Would appreciate help tracking down the affected template. WjBscribe 16:04, 14 March 2007 (UTC)

Problem has been fixed. However some of the template used in it (i.e. {{Infobox Legislation}} and {{Same-sex marriage footer}}) remain unprotected- is cascading protection not working at the moment? If not, templates may need to be protected manually. WjBscribe 16:09, 14 March 2007 (UTC)

Cascading only applies to the main page. The FA isn't edit-protected (so even if cascading protection were enabled, there would be no edit protection to cascade). —bbatsell ¿? ✍ 16:43, 14 March 2007 (UTC)

I see, I had misunderstood the cascading protection function. Is it still current practice to protect the templates currently being used in the main page FA to avoid vandalism of those templates? WjBscribe 16:54, 14 March 2007 (UTC)

I'm not sure if we should do so pre-emptively, but if we're having problems with it, I don't see why we shouldn't protect those templates. Cascading protection -- last I heard, anyway -- doesn't have an option for semi (although that may have been updated?). At the bottom of the "edit this page" screen, you should get a list of all pages currently transcluded onto the page you're editing, along with their protection status, which is helpful for this sort of thing. – Luna Santin (talk) 21:58, 14 March 2007 (UTC)

OK, I usually watchlist the mainpage FA- I'll also watchlist any unprotected templates used in it... WjBscribe 22:50, 14 March 2007 (UTC)

Potential conflict of interest issue

Resolved

 – —Quarl ^(talk) 2007-03-15 18:07Z

While doing some normal IP vandalism reversions, I noticed that 72.166.141.248 (talk · contribs · WHOIS) is registered to the Stephen S. Wise Temple (SSWT) in LA, CA, US. Looking at the IP contributions, the IP has edied extensively on Milken Community High School, which is associated with the SSWT. I presume a warning is appropriate? -- Avi 16:17, 14 March 2007 (UTC)

Looks it to me. Eli Falk 16:20, 14 March 2007 (UTC)

Strongly oppose. This is the abuse of the policy. Any extension of its interpretation will lead to creeping disaster. IU've already been advised not to edit articles about Soviet Union! `'mikka 22:30, 14 March 2007 (UTC)

Opposed to what? That an employee of a related institution needs to take care (NOT is forbidden from editing) when they edit? Please see the warning I left, and then I would appreciate knowing what in particular you oppose. Thank you. -- Avi 00:51, 15 March 2007 (UTC)

Avi's concern is fine, and the "please be careful" warning to 72.166.141.248 is fine. No news here, which article isn't being edited by someone with a conflict of interest? :) —Quarl ^(talk) 2007-03-15 18:07Z

Fraudulent uploads

Resolved

User:Nubova has repeatedly uploaded images with text a la "I took this picture myself" and license tags such as {{pd-self}} or {{gfdl-self}} for images which are clearly CVs. These include: Image:Egan1.jpg (recently speedied, CV with [29]), Image:Carroll1.jpg (CV with [30]), Image:Carroll2.jpg (CV with [31]), Image:Barat1.gif (CV with [32]). This is a blockable offense (at least, according to Special:Upload). The user's talk page is littered with IFD notices. All of this user's images need to be scrutinized for CV. - Keith D. Tyler ¶ (AMA) 16:18, 14 March 2007 (UTC)

I've sent some of the blatant image violations to IFD or tagged them for speedy deletion, but there's still a few more tagged PD that need to be looked at more closely.

• Image:Centennial.jpg — No source, tagged for speedy deletion 7 days from now. — Rebelguys2 ^talk 20:43, 14 March 2007 (UTC)
• Image:West Campus 456.jpg — Sent to IFD as orphaned. — Rebelguys2 ^talk 20:43, 14 March 2007 (UTC)
• Image:West Campus123.jpg — Sent to IFD as orphaned. — Rebelguys2 ^talk 20:43, 14 March 2007 (UTC)
• Image:Northeastern long.jpg — I can't find this image anywhere. I really don't buy the PD-Self tag, though, so I've gone ahead and sent it over to Wikipedia:Possibly unfree images. — Rebelguys2 ^talk 21:12, 14 March 2007 (UTC)
• Image:Libraryinteriorbcls.jpg — Taken to Wikipedia:Copyright problems; violation from here. — Rebelguys2 ^talk 20:54, 14 March 2007 (UTC)
• Image:NEU boathouse.jpg — Taken to Wikipedia:Copyright problems; violation from here. — Rebelguys2 ^talk 20:54, 14 March 2007 (UTC)

— Rebelguys2 ^talk 20:38, 14 March 2007 (UTC)

Shifting IP repeats vandalism

Over the past week, various IP's and one user, who I suspect to be the same person, have been repeating the same vandalous edits over and over again despite being reverted, and when a higher level of warning is issued to that IP, they have switched to another. Now, they are using several IP's, each with only one edit. I am unsure how to proceed.

The following articles (as far as I know) have been affected: Leprechaun Ballycastle, County Antrim Carnlough

The following users/IP's are those I have seen to do these edits: User: Bubblesthelegend

IP: 89.240 : Opal Telecommunications, Northern Ireland, Great Britain

89.240.90.61

89.240.172.39

IP: 143.117 : University of Belfast, Northern Ireland, Great Britain

143.117.80.30

143.117.80.32

143.117.80.46

IP: 81.149.128.127 : Static IP, Great Britain

Stevenstone93 (talk · contribs)

See also Stevenstone93 Incident archive 26 January 2007

Wikipedia Stevenstone93 seems to have assumed the identity of living person, Professor Steven Suttles Stone of UC Davis, California and appears to be presenting Professor Stone as a racist, homophobic 14 year old boy.: I came across Wikipedia:Miscellany_for_deletion#User:Stevenstone93 and reviewed the user page. This person holds himself out to be living person Steven Suttles Stone, a 14 years old boy living in California. Between this user's talk page and user page, there is enough information to particularly identify living person Steven Suttles Stone. There is no evidence that this user is in fact Steven Suttles Stone and the posts and actions demonstrate a level of sophistication well above that which would be held by a 14 year old boy. This appears to be a running, liabelous presentation by at least two people (with 75.44.206.124 (talk · contribs)) towards Steven Suttles Stone. This user has posted numerous statements that would be particularly liabelous to living person Steven Suttles Stone if this person is in fact not Steven Suttles Stone and would be harmful to living person Steven Suttles Stone if he was Steven Suttles Stone. See, for example, the racist and anti-homosexual polemics. This user continually reverts WP:BLP deletions on his user page and otherwise raises many red flags described in Wikipedia:Youth protection. The dialogue with User:Tractorkingsfan seems to be by one person with two identities. Stevenstone93's very first post of October 24, 2006 was vandalism. His second post was reverted, which he quickly posted again. This was then reverted and met with a "DO NOT ATTEMPT TO BOTHER ME AGAIN" post by Stevenstone93. His third post was reverted. Over the next three months, his remaining contributions have all been to his user page and challenges to changes to his user page on his talk page. Wikipedia Stevenstone93 seems to have assumed the identity of living person, Professor Steven Suttles Stone of UC Davis, California. For an example of living person Steve's legitimate post, see this. I think this matter needs some immediate attention. Please look into it. Thanks. -- Jreferee 17:22, 14 March 2007 (UTC)

I've blocked the user, deleted his user page, and speedy closed the MFD. WP:NOT#WEBSPACE for people who do not contribute to articles for over 3 months.—Ryūlóng (竜龍) 21:21,14 March 2007 (UTC)

That's all well and good, but I ain't him, besides a recent total meltdown by myself on User talk:WAS 4.250, I have been a decent contributor, approx 700 edits, 200 or so to article space, none reverted. I resent whatever "two identities" accusation is being made above; I was merely trying to help this individual, who I believed was a young kid, albeit a smart one. My intentions were fine. --Tractorkingsfan 21:48, 14 March 2007 (UTC)

I do not really see where you got the idea that I thought that the two of you were one in the same.—Ryūlóng (竜龍) 22:03, 14 March 2007 (UTC)

I never got that idea from you. I addressed my response to the comment above, by User:Jreferee that "the dialogue with User:Tractorkingsfan seems to be by one person with two identities." This, bizarrely, unnecessarily, and unfoundedly inserted into an otherwise cogent argument, is what sort of got my attention. --Tractorkingsfan 22:09, 14 March 2007 (UTC)

User has created at least one sockpuppet (User:SSSCLimitedTrademark., indef blocked). Keep an eye out. Natalie 01:44, 15 March 2007 (UTC)

New sockpuppet: GeneralSSSC 1993 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · nuke contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) Please block. —Psychonaut 16:24, 15 March 2007 (UTC)

I don't see any evidence that Steven Suttles Stone is a professor in real life. A post on an internet forum with the signature "Steven Suttles Stone, UC Davis" doesn't make someone a professor. A student, possibly, though probably not even that. The UC Davis directory lists nobody by the name of Steve/Steven/S. Stone, whether faculty/student/staff [33]. So if this is a libel campaign I don't know who it's against. Maybe he really is a 14-year-old boy? See also Hanlon's razor. —Quarl ^(talk) 2007-03-15 17:53Z

I believe you've hit the nail on the head. The user just claimed on User talk:Stevenstone93 that the post in the Walt Whitman article alluded to above was someone vandalizing using his name, probably one of his schoolmates. I'm inclined to believe that over Jreferee's scenario, especially because in the edit attributed to the "real" professor, the person signs "Steven Suttles Stone Corporation LTD" or something like that, which this 14 year old user does all the time, but I doubt a real professor would happen to also do. Faulty evidence to back up a strange theory. I, as well, have failed to find any evidence of such a professor in reality. So I must raise the question, was an indef block necessary on this user? He has ignored all advice given to him, but now promises to edit articles besides his own userspace. --Tractorkingsfan 20:13, 15 March 2007 (UTC)

King Edward VIII and his American date

The article for Edward VIII of the United Kingdom was the subject of an extensive edit by G2bambino, changing all dates in the article into American Dating format. I had words with him here in which his defence was that the British king was sovereign of many nations, not just the UK. Presumably the title King of Canada justifies the change. I asked him to change the date formats back, but he has not done so. Can some admin beat him over the head with Jguk, or must I resign myself to following him around and reverting inappropriate style changes? --Pete 17:27, 14 March 2007 (UTC)

Wasn't there a way to set one's display preferences? I feel like there used to be some default date format that would get parsed into the user's preferred way of viewing them. Did I imagine this? --Selket ^Talk 18:03, 14 March 2007 (UTC)

Pete, you're right, but Canada isn't much of an excuse for changing formats since they apparently accept both US and UK styles, see our article on Calendar date. Since E8 was born in England, and is generally most famous for his influence on the UK, I'd say UK format is appropriate. Selket, you're not mistaken, see Special:Preferences#prefsection-4. WP:DATE is a great article for trying it out, since it uses every legal and several illegal formats. If you set your preferences, you will see most of them look alike - try to edit the article (without saving!) to see the "before" view. --AnonEMouse ^(squeak) 19:03, 14 March 2007 (UTC)

The date preferences thing is great (though implementing it through wikilinks is a little tacky) but the big problem is that this only works for registered users (i.e. editors) and most of our readers don't have accounts, so therefore see the "raw" formats. Seeing American dates in an article about a British king is as jarring as seeing International dates used in (say) an article about President Kennedy. --Pete 00:59, 15 March 2007 (UTC)

User:HEWatch

Please review an indefinite block of this account per the "reason for being" on its user page (and matching contributions). I'm hoping the rule on "we don't make user accounts specifically to fight with other users, even temporarily banned ones" fits under WP:SOCK or other places, but if it's not there, consider me blocking under WP:IAR ... and I don't write that lightly. This is ridiculous. --AnonEMouse ^(squeak) 20:05, 14 March 2007 (UTC)

Endorse, w/o doubt. We are an encyclopedia, period. Rama's arrow 20:15, 14 March 2007 (UTC)

Endorse. - Merzbow 00:02, 15 March 2007 (UTC)

Self admitted single purpose, stalking account... yeap. Georgewilliamherbert 00:04, 15 March 2007 (UTC)

65.164.51.130 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · page moves · block user · block log)

Resolved

Since I'm "involved" with this puppeteer (here, here and here), would someone be kind enough to review this edit and take any appropriate action? Thanks. RadioKirk (u|t|c) 19:57, 14 March 2007 (UTC)

Blocked. Only for 24 hours, but will reblock if you let me know it is required. --Yamla 20:06, 14 March 2007 (UTC)

Most kind. I can't help but wonder how many of those "new" users who periodically show up there and argue (badly, because it's false) that I have WP:OWN and WP:NPOV issues are this same person... ;) RadioKirk (u|t|c) 20:12, 14 March 2007 (UTC)

User 195.8.168.107

Resolved

 – —Quarl ^(talk) 2007-03-15 17:40Z

This user has repeatedly vadalized numerous pages, and been warned several times. Please check his user history for specifics. Thanks. Markysdad 20:36, 14 March 2007 (UTC)

He made four edits total, all on March 6. I don't think any action needs to be taken. If he starts vandalizing again, you can report him to WP:AIV. Picaroon 20:39, 14 March 2007 (UTC)

Disregard that; I was looking at 81.152.88.116, the one who Markysdad warned on March 6. Picaroon 20:45, 14 March 2007 (UTC)

I just warned the address for today's vandalism. For future reference, this is not the place to report this kind of thing. If someone has vandalized repeatedly and received a final warning (and ignored it), they can be reported to WP:AIV. This user hadn't done anything for several days. Leebo ^T/C 20:42, 14 March 2007 (UTC)

Street Scholar (talk · contribs)

Resolved

Could somebody please take a look at what they think of this diff. I'm one of those that has reverted the person trolling his userpage. I even gave the IP a stern warning and ended up reporting it at AIV where it was blocked for three months. Sufficed to say though, I find the comments of Street Scholar himself (once more!) seriously offensive.

Perhaps he should be told (yet again!) that his own personal belief system and values are not an excuse for his poor behaviour on wikipedia. Alternatively, because it is a case of "yet again", perhaps something else may be in order? Crimsone 20:53, 14 March 2007 (UTC)

This person has a long history of personal attacks on religious lines. I've blocked him for 1 month. Rama's arrow 21:42, 14 March 2007 (UTC)

Saint Patrick

Insane amount of vandalism today so I semi-protected it. Just letting you all know. Feel free to reverse it if you feel like I jumped the gun. IrishGuy ^talk 20:56, 14 March 2007 (UTC)

Seems okay to me ... Yuser31415 20:59, 14 March 2007 (UTC)

Don't they know they're supposed to wait until Saturday? Natalie 22:50, 14 March 2007 (UTC)

User:JJonathan and socks at Talk:Kylie Minogue

• JJonathan (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · nuke contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

Socks:

• 209.247.5.227 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · filter log · WHOIS · RDNS · RBLs · http · block user · block log)
• 63.215.27.211 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · filter log · WHOIS · RDNS · RBLs · http · block user · block log)
• 209.244.43.34 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · filter log · WHOIS · RDNS · RBLs · http · block user · block log)
• Jonathannew7 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · nuke contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

One user, using three anonymous and two named accounts. Repeated and persistent deletion of talk page discussion on Talk:Kylie Minogue#Category cleanup over the past two months. A partial list of diffs: [34][35][36][37][38][39][40][41][42][43][44]

Has been blocked twice for 24 hours already and once for a week, but keeps on deleting using either one of the non-blocked accounts, in true whack-a-mole style. Has been asked to participate in the discussion instead of deleting it (examples: [45][46][47][48]), and has been warned on all five accounts already, but keeps deleting user talk page warnings (examples: [49][50]). --Plek 21:48, 7 March 2007 (UTC)

User:JJonathan just blanked this section. Restored and warned user. --Kurt Shaped Box 01:32, 8 March 2007 (UTC)

Vandalism continues,[51] so I reinstated this message. --Plek 21:14, 14 March 2007 (UTC)

Added information: the talk page vandalism is probably meant to push through this edit (with summary "The categories are staying don't turn it off anyone"), without any intention to discuss matters first. --Plek 21:49, 14 March 2007 (UTC)

Block Review

Resolved

18:36, 15 March 2007 (UTC)

InvaderSora (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · nuke contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) was previously blocked for revert warring and 3RR, and was warned against inclusion of un-attributable material. The block length was 48 hours, and during that time InvaderSora abused the unblock command, adding it in at least 6 times after being declined, and then arguing with the administrators over that rather aggressively. InvaderSora refuses to admit error, and refuses to listen to reason. After an AFD on an article he had contributed to was closed and deleted by me, he recreated the article. Note, he'd been warned before about removing AFD tags and interfering with AFD process on another article, which I noted. I left a message on his talk page to try deletion review and re-deleted the article. He then said "why was it deleted" (what do you think AFD is for?) He then recreated the page once again. I deleted for a third time, then protected and salted. Given his past history of tendentious editing, edit warring, AFD manipulation (he tried to vote twice), AFD tag deletion, and complete lack of any attempt to understand wikipedia policy, I felt that a block was warranted to allow him time to read up on and understand wikipedia policy before continuing editing. As the prior block was 48 hours and he did not learn anything from that, I therefore blocked for 1 week, with the stipulation that I'm very much open to rescinding the block sooner than that if he shows an attempt to edit acceptably. I also left a warning that if he continues to abuse the unblock template, he will lose the ability to edit his talk page for the duration of the block. Therefore, I'm asking for a review of the block here. ⇒ SWATJester ^{On Belay!} 21:33, 14 March 2007 (UTC)

NB also this edit. His user page says he's twelve to the extent that counts in one direction or the other. -- TedFrank 21:47, 14 March 2007 (UTC)

He was also blocked three prior times for similar behavior under his previous username, [52]. —Centrx→talk • 21:52, 14 March 2007 (UTC)

Looking at it now. What are the articles that were deleted? Newyorkbrad 21:56, 14 March 2007 (UTC)

[53] was the one I deleted, [54] is the one that he was warned about interfering with AFDs on. ⇒ SWATJester ^{On Belay!} 22:12, 14 March 2007 (UTC)

Block looks good. Wikipedia is not a children's playground. Next time, feel free to issue a block that is set to expire sometime after puberty. Sandstein 22:23, 14 March 2007 (UTC)

Oh whoops, apparently I actually didn't protect the school page, I just added the template and forgot to actually protect it, thanks for the catch Centrx.⇒ SWATJester ^{On Belay!} 22:22, 14 March 2007 (UTC)

Excessive blocking by Naconkantari

Naconkantari (talk · contribs · blocks · protections · deletions · page moves · rights · RfA) has been using blocking excessively. An excerpt from the block log:

1. At 16:44, March 14, 2007, blocked 74.102.9.107 (talk · contribs) for three hours after two vandalism edits within the same minute (no other recent vandalism, only a single, low-level warning, no time for the warning to even be read).
2. At 16:37, March 14, 2007, blocked 68.228.133.127 (talk · contribs) for three hours after one recent vandalism edit.
3. At 16:36, March 14, 2007, blocked 70.127.219.53 (talk · contribs) for three hours after one recent vandalism edit.
4. At 16:33, March 14, 2007, blocked 82.198.252.5 (talk · contribs) for three hours after user was given a single, final warning against vandalism in a content dispute and then made the disputed change again.
5. At 16:32, March 14, 2007, blocked 75.6.215.83 (talk · contribs) for three hours after user was given a single, final warning in a content dispute and then made disputed changes twice more.
6. At 16:31, March 14, 2007, blocked 24.178.113.187 (talk · contribs) after one recent vandalism edit.
7. At 16:30, March 14, 2007, blocked 216.178.73.109 (talk · contribs), an educational institution, for three hours after the user made one recent vandalism edit.
8. At 16:29, March 14, 2007, blocked 66.44.130.162 (talk · contribs) for 31 hours, although the user did not vandalize since receiving a recent final warning and had not vandalized in eight hours.
9. At 16:18, March 14, 2007, blocked 72.89.139.135 (talk · contribs) for 1 hour after the user made one blanking/vandalism edit.
10. At 15:53, March 14, 2007, blocked 209.247.5.78 (talk · contribs) for 3 hours after user received just a level 1 warning and a level 2 warning, and then vandalized again.
11. At 15:50, March 14, 2007, blocked 71.243.153.55 (talk · contribs) for 31 hours after user made two vandalism edits, received just a level 1 warning and a level 2 warning, and had not vandalized after the level 2.
12. At 15:50, March 14, 2007, blocked Chyeahitsdiana (talk · contribs) indefinitely after user made one vandalism edit.
13. At 15:48, March 14, 2007, blocked 200.166.185.131 (talk · contribs) for 31 hours after user made one vandalism edit.
14. At 15:47, March 14, 2007, blocked 68.83.247.150 (talk · contribs) for 31 hours after user made one vandalism edit.
15. At 15:45, March 14, 2007, blocked 70.49.76.43 (talk · contribs) for 31 hours after user made one vandalism edit.
16. At 15:44, March 14, 2007, blocked 198.161.37.135 (talk · contribs) for 3 hours after user received a level 1 warning and had not vandalized since the warning.

The log is full of these incidents, but these are sixteen inappropriate blocks over the course of one hour. The log is full of blocks before adequate warnings have been given, immediate blocks upon a single incident of vandalism, indefinite blocks of usernames after a single vandalism edit, and excessively long blocks of shared IPs. I spoke with Naconkantari here but saw no indication that anything would change, so I am reporting it here. TomTheHand 21:55, 14 March 2007 (UTC)

block 1: Short 3hr block for two rapid fire vandalisms? seems ok to me. Block 2 and 3: Again, seems ok, 3hrs is a short block to cool off vandalism Block 4 and 5: user made disputed edits AFTER a final warning. Short block = ok to me. Block 6 and 7: see block 2 and 3. Block 8-11, again, see blcoks 2 and 3. Blcok 12 registered users should be held to a higher accountability than anons. I disagree with indef, but I haven't looked in depth into it.

etc. etc. None of these blocks is for more than 31 hours, a suitable cool off period. Every single one of those users is a vandal, some repeat times, some clearly violating the rules, others less clearly so, but none of them constructively editing. I don't really see the problem here. If they were all indef blocks you'd have a valid complaint but come on....complaining over 1 hour and 3 hour blocks? ⇒ SWATJester ^{On Belay!} 22:19, 14 March 2007 (UTC)

Per WP:BLOCK, "Blocks should not be used against isolated incidents of vandalism." That means that blocking a user who has made one edit is a violation of blocking policy. Per WP:AIV, a user should receive a proper set of warnings, including a final warning, and should vandalize after the final warning, before being listed. That implies that they should be warned, including a final warning, and continue to vandalize, before being blocked. Per WP:VAND, vandalism is NOT an NPOV violation. A user has no business giving someone vandalism warning for a content dispute, and an admin has no business blocking someone for a content dispute. Again per WP:BLOCK, dynamic IPs should be blocked for up to 24 hours, and logged-in users should start at 24 hours. It is implied in WP:BLOCK that blocks of shared IPs, such as those at schools, should be shorter and be given out more carefully. TomTheHand 22:26, 14 March 2007 (UTC)

WP:AIV is not policy and "school vandalism" is not an isolated incident. Naconkantari 22:28, 14 March 2007 (UTC)

School vandalism is caused by kids who are bored and in the library on a computer for 45 minutes. Every time there's a one-hour break between vandalism, the next block should be considered an "isolated incident." Any block longer than necessary to get that kid bored and make him or her move on is harming the school. TomTheHand 22:30, 14 March 2007 (UTC)

Wikipedia is far too tolerant of school vandals as it is, and it hurts the project. I daresay that anon users create more problems than they solve. Looking at some of these contribution logs, there remain vandalism edits to be cleaned up, even with as quick as a gun as Naconkatari's. E.g.,[55]. It's safe to say someone making plainly vandalizing edits from a school account isn't likely to start making legitimate edits in the next three hours.

So when did policy change to say it's ok to WP:BITE anon-IP editors? Frankly, I wouldn't mind requiring registration for all editors, but right now, that's not our policy. Blocking for one incident of vandalism, and getting one's back up when challenged, are both abuse of administrative power. Αργυριου (talk) 00:07, 15 March 2007 (UTC)

I agree that it was inappropriate to call 82.198.252.5 a vandal, but his edit (twice made) was a fairly violent violation of NPOV, and there was a violation of WP:CIVIL on a user talk page to boot. Three hours isn't inappropriate. -- TedFrank 22:35, 14 March 2007 (UTC)

I was unaware that we now block editors for vandalism on sight. Am I honestly being told that this is now standard operating procedure? The whole warning thing... we don't do that any more? Nine out of the above sixteen blocks were in response to exactly one recent vandalism edit, and only one of those was a school. Setting aside tolerance for school vandals, the other eight were the very definition of an isolated incident. TomTheHand 22:39, 14 March 2007 (UTC)

Blocking on sight is not SOP But if said vandal has certain vandalism patterns then we will block on sight. a new user testing style of vandalism will get a warning. other types of vandalism follows the Revert, Block, Ignore pattern. Betacommand ^{(talk • contribs • Bot)} 22:55, 14 March 2007 (UTC)

I'm not an administrator, but I once got 31-hour blocked for "edit-warring" without a warning for restoring my own talk page three times when someone else was repeatedly blanking it, and my appeal was denied. So Wikipedia editors block without warning for a lot less than someone deliberately disrupting article space; someone who makes an edit like this isn't intending to contribute positively to Wikipedia. -- TedFrank 22:53, 14 March 2007 (UTC)

TedFrank, I would like to see a link to the incident you just mentioned. Newyorkbrad 23:02, 14 March 2007 (UTC)

It was here and frankly, it kind of looks like TedFrank was goading the other editor. IrishGuy ^talk 23:15, 14 March 2007 (UTC)

TedFrank was responding to a use who has been indefinitely blocked for the sort of provocation he was responding to. Αργυριου (talk) 00:07, 15 March 2007 (UTC)

It's entirely possible that Naconkantari has seen the exact same edits before and is blocking as a preventative measure, which is the purpose of blocks anyway. A lot of school vandals come day after day and make the same changes. Even if the IPs are different, they're still probably the same person. Has Naconkantari been notified that this is being discussed here? They're probably willing to explain themself. Natalie 22:57, 14 March 2007 (UTC)

I would like to ask administrators to please look at the above incidents, as well as Naconkantari's block history in general. I understand that you're assuming good faith on Naconkantari's part, but please also assume good faith on my part: I am honestly trying to bring a serious problem to your attention here. I had never had any encounter with Naconkantari before this. I have explained above how the blocks violate blocking policy, but I'll reiterate below:

1. Blocks have been in response to isolated incidents of vandalism, including blocks without warning of IP addresses that have never edited Wikipedia before.
2. Blocks have been of excessive length. Per blocking policy, 31 hours is too long to block a dynamic IP, and an indefinite block for one vandalism edit by a logged-in user is inappropriate as well.

The blocks above are contrary to what WP:BLOCK says explicitly. I would appreciate a response from anyone explaining either why they do not violate WP:BLOCK or under what circumstances WP:BLOCK should not be followed. If, as some people have suggested, these blocks that appear to be of isolated incidents are in fact part of a campaign against an active vandal, I would appreciate an explanation of the circumstances. No pattern is obvious looking at the edits. Please do not simply say "school vandalism isn't an isolated incident", as that can only possibly apply to one of the above blocks. Please explain all blocks that appear, at first glance, to violate blocking policy.

I'd also like to reiterate that I have not cherry-picked Naconkantari's block history to find the sixteen worst blocks. I just looked at a one hour period. Please extrapolate out; if a half of these are iffy, it is a serious problem for such an active blocker. TomTheHand 23:23, 14 March 2007 (UTC)

The whole point in the blocking policy is to prevent further disruption, it is not a rigid set of rules and indeed the section your complaint seems to rely on is a section marked quite clearly as a guide. Admins are expected to apply common sense as to when a block may or not be appropriate. --pgk 07:28, 15 March 2007 (UTC)

If it is acceptable to apply dozens of blocks per day to isolated incidents of vandalism then the guide should reflect such. I acknowledge the need for admins to be able to make case-by-base decisions on what particular situations requite, but blocks should generally follow the guidelines laid out in the blocking policy. I am not complaining about a handful of questionable blocks, but about what Naconkantari spends all of his or her time on Wikipedia doing. TomTheHand 09:40, 15 March 2007 (UTC)

See User talk:Naconkantari#User:Thatsuperguy11. I am surprised that an indefinite block was placed as the first block (though User:Thatsuperguy11 had been duly warned), and disappointed that it was placed without a block notice on the user's talk page. I have replaced the indefinite block with a 48-hour block. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 09:58, 15 March 2007 (UTC)

Right, because this vandal only account needs to be given a second chance. Nardman1 10:43, 15 March 2007 (UTC)

I'd not have a problem with that block and certainly not enough to go and undo another admins actions without first consulting but merely diving in and declaring myself to be right (the opening of a wheel war if both admins insist they are in the right). The user was warned and continued, the edits clearly weren't of the "test" type, deletions of content from disconnected pages, deleting content from the user pages of a user who had warned. WP:AGF only goes so far and I personally cannot see anyway that user could be perceived as being here to do anything but disrupt. As to the issue of the block notice, I can hardly see it as relevant for an account which had only done vandalism (I know other admins differ on this point), but that is only a procedural issue and since wikipedia is not a bureaucracy doesn't invalidate the block. --pgk 14:13, 15 March 2007 (UTC)

I have no problem with Naconkantari's blocks. Instead of "blocks should generally follow the guidelines laid out in the blocking policy", the policy should reflect actual practice. I routinely block school-boy vandalism with no or minimal notice, usually for 15 minutes to 3 hours, but longer if it seems called for. I block whenever I think it will prevent further vandalism, and plan to continue unless there is a consensus that I should not. Tom Harrison ^Talk 14:30, 15 March 2007 (UTC)

I disagree that we should change WP:BLOCK to support 31 hour blocks of IPs without warning upon the first incident of vandalism, but as the majority here do appear to support that sort of block, I agree that WP:BLOCK should absolutely be brought in line with actual practice. TomTheHand 15:19, 15 March 2007 (UTC)

Some of the blocks may have been a bit quick, but for the majority of the cases I will endorse them. I cannot see everything which has taken place here, but one very real possibility is that some of the IPs blocked are vandals returning with a new IP to continue their juvenile nonsense, and blocking those immediately is quite justified. Although a naive look at only the block log and talk page will make those blocks appear hasty, there is frequently a deeper story than just the one vandalism edit. Dealing with vandalism really wastes a lot of our time and resources, and putting the vandals out of action quickly is quite justifiable. I also think that a person subject to a block like this is not going to be upset the same way that a person blocked for, say the 3RR will be. They probably think its loads of fun that an administrator got their attention and they got to test the Wikipedia defenses to the breaking point. I think we should be tougher and quicker when it comes to blocking people for vandalism (though I also advocate more conservatism when it comes to blocking people for disruption.) Sjakkalle (Check!) 14:49, 15 March 2007 (UTC)

Naconkantari has posted several times and has not said anything about a campaign against a particular vandal, but I've left a note at User talk:Naconkantari to see if there is a deeper story. TomTheHand 15:18, 15 March 2007 (UTC)

Naconkantari has said that the above blocks were not part of any campaign against a particular vandal, but instead is part of a personal policy to block anyone who knowingly vandalizes. TomTheHand 17:35, 15 March 2007 (UTC)

I've posted here to try to start a discussion about if we need to make changes to the blocking policy. I think this discussion needs to continue for longer than ANI will let it; it will fall off the top of the page in a few days. If the above sorts of blocks are OK, the policy needs to reflect that. I hope that everyone who participated in this discussion will be willing to move over to WP:BLOCK and work on a revision of the policy. TomTheHand 15:24, 15 March 2007 (UTC)

User:Ryulong

I was called in to a dispute about the naming of Straight Outta Lynwood‎. Our naming conventions had always stated simply that articles, prepositions, etc., shouldn't be capitalised, so I backed one editor, and move the article to Straight outta Lynwood‎. When this was challenged (and my move reverted) I explained the situation, and made the move again. Ryulong (talk · contribs), despite a continuing discussion at the Talk page, has taken it upon himself to move the article and to protect it against moves (on the basis that the capitalisation at other sites trumps our conventions).

Not only does this show a misunderstanding of our naming conventions, but is surely a misuse of admin powers. --Mel Etitis (Talk) 22:14, 14 March 2007 (UTC)

• However, this appears to be an actual title. In that case, the fact that "outta" is a preposition is surely irrelevant. I think this is already under discussion somewhere on WP:AN in any event. Cheers, Mackensen (talk) 22:20, 14 March 2007 (UTC)
• See WP:AN#Page move issue and WP:AN#Page move issue - again. Mackensen (talk) 22:22, 14 March 2007 (UTC)

(edit conflict) Our internal naming conventions in the case of something with a proper name need to defer to the most obvious initial criterion for naming something, which is the something's actual name. There is ample evidence, including from Weird Al's official website, that Straight Outta Lynwood with the capital "O" is the actual real-world title of the album. This is consistent with Straight Outta Compton, the name of the N.W.A. album that is being used as a referent, which also is spelled with the capital "O". Newyorkbrad 22:22, 14 March 2007 (UTC)

(EDIT CONFLICT × 3) Both of the threads that I brought up at the talk page of the article and that Mackensen brought up show that the moves are questioned, and also that the move protection be done, which I also did. My only actions at the article have been to originally do a histmerge (and then fix the various usages within the article), then I find that the same article is being discussed, again, and I undo the move, fix the usage of the title in the text, and install the move protection per the discussion at the thread. I have also performed a histmerge with the talk page, today. I seriously do not find that my actions are out of line here, as they are in response to two threads at WP:AN, and I also fully explained myself at the talk page of the article.—Ryūlóng (竜龍) 22:25, 14 March 2007 (UTC)

This has effectively restored the status quo, if there is still a need to move, the matter can go to WP:RM for consideration. Chris cheese whine 22:31, 14 March 2007 (UTC)

1. The notion of an "actual title" makes no sense with regard to capitalisation; our naming conventions always override other sources — that's what they're there for. If Dickens had written on his manuscript, and publishers had followed him, A Tale Of Two Cities, we'd still call it A Tale of Two Cities — that's how Manuals of Style work.
2. The notion that Ryulong merely returned to some status quo is also a mistake. When admins protect a page, they should do so according to the protection policy: "The same restrictions that apply to full protection during a dispute also apply to move protection during a dispute (for example, admins should avoid favouring one name over another, and protection is not an endorsement of the current name)."

I find it worrying that admins are unaware of our guidelines and policies in these areas. --Mel Etitis (Talk) 22:41, 14 March 2007 (UTC)

Can you point to any evidence that Ryulong was favoring a given version, except to undo what he saw as the aftermath of a disruptive move war? It's not at all uncommon for admins to restore the last version before an edit war before protecting, and I wasn't aware that this was frowned upon. - A Man In Bl♟ck (conspire | past ops) 22:45, 14 March 2007 (UTC)

Any chance of quoting the relevant section of the WP:MOS that states we change the given name of something to suit our own manual of style please.-- Nick ^t 22:45, 14 March 2007 (UTC)

Yes, please point us to the Manual of Style page which says our naming conventions overrule what the trademark owner named their own creation. (And once you find it, I wish you the best of luck changing all references to the iPod to "Ipod.") Picaroon 22:49, 14 March 2007 (UTC)

Ah, found it! From Wikipedia:Naming conventions (books)#Capitalization - "Book titles, like names of other works, are exempt from "lowercase second and subsequent words"." I think we can safely say that an album falls under said conventions, and that "Outta," as an integral and not incidental part of the title, is so exempt. There you are. Mackensen (talk) 22:54, 14 March 2007 (UTC)

WP:MOS is certainly lacking in this area (amazing since I counted at least four different MOS and naming convention pages that apply to this situation). An additional rule that I learned is that words with five or more letters are always capitalized in titles, no matter the part of speech. --- RockMFR 23:02, 14 March 2007 (UTC)

First, when a guideline like Wikipedia:Naming conventions (capitalization) says "In general, titles of books, films, and other works are also capitalized, except for articles ("a", "and", "the") and prepositions and conjunctions (e.g., "to", "from", "and"). Examples: A New Kind of Science, Ghost in the Shell, To Be or Not to Be.", it doesn't say "follow whatever the publisher of the book, film, or album does"... there's a reason for that. That's the whole point of having a Manula of Style and naming conventions.

Secondly, we're not talking about trademarks, which are treated differently by most Manuals of Style.

Thirdly, the issue of lowercase second and subsequent words is irrelevant here; that refers to capitalisation in article and section titles, and tells us that we don't call an article A tale of two cities.

Fourthly, capitalisation rules regarding titles are not part of English grammar; they're the choice of publications. Some publications capitalise no articles, prepositions, etc., some capitalise all, others use an intermediate scheme. Some Manuals would insist on "Alice In Wonderland" and "Alice Through the Looking Glass", some on "ALice in Wonderland" and "Alice through the Looking Glass", and some on "Alice in Wonderland" and "Alice Through the Looking Glass". We have always gone for the second option.

Oh, and fifthly, the claim that my page move – which is the one that Ryolong reverted – was disruptive should be backed up. --Mel Etitis (Talk) 23:29, 14 March 2007 (UTC)

File a WP:RM. Right now, there are several people here who feel that I did nothing wrong, and before my histmerging yesterday, I had not editted the page once (that I can recall). There has been too much moving of pages being done in the past 24 hours that I protected it from being moved. That and it's blatantly clear that the owner of the copyright does trump the local MoS. If Weird Al used "Straight outta Lynwood", then it'd be where you want it. But he doesn't. He uses "Straight Outta Lynwood" which is where the article had been until sometime last week.—Ryūlóng (竜龍) 23:35, 14 March 2007 (UTC)

Great smoking jeebus, is this why I joined Wikipedia? A title is a title. Star wars? How about Ship arriving too late to save a drowning witch? Since Dickens has been brought up (however tangentially) let me paraphrase, "If the MoS instructs that, then the MoS is an ass;" If you want to push this, Mel, you've got about half million albums, books, films, and TV episodes to go. Better get crackin'. Thatcher131 00:52, 15 March 2007 (UTC)

I had a (friendlier) dispute with another editor about this topic, but a different specific case. Yes naming conventions are a bit lacking on this issue. We tried to spur some discussion but none really happened... Wikipedia_talk:Naming_conventions#Work_titles_with_irregular_capitalization. I think an RFC or something still might be a good idea to hammer something definitive out so we don't have this dispute every few weeks. --W.marsh 00:56, 15 March 2007 (UTC)

YES! This is a growing issue that the Wikipedia community should set up something more definitive and cohesive when it comes to Capitalization and article titles. The gross inconsistency that you see with page move disputes like KISS (band), brian d foy, kd lang, eBay, etc gives way too many headaches. As Rock said, there are _several_ MOS pages (and varying interpretations) that all seem to point one way or the other. You also have segments of editors & admins who are either very liberal with capitalization or very fundamental and whoever happens to be most active on a page move wins. It's crazy and it is going to keep popping up till something is hammered out. 205.157.110.11 02:13, 15 March 2007 (UTC)

The rules about "prepositions" and similar words in our and other MOS's are really just proxies for important/stressed versus unimportant/unstressed words. In these titles, "Outta" is clearly a stressed word and hence takes the cap. Even "out" can be a stressed word and need a capital on occasion. Jimmy Pearsol wrote Fear Strikes Out, not Fear Strikes out. Mel is right to the extent that in a clear case like his Dickens example we mightn't like an authorial idiosyncrasy override our rules, but this case isn't that one. Newyorkbrad 02:29, 15 March 2007 (UTC)

I think it's worth mentioning that Wikipedia:Naming conventions (capitalization) stated that prepositions with five or more letters should be capitalized until Mel Etitis changed the rule less than twelve hours ago. --Maxamegalon2000 03:38, 15 March 2007 (UTC)

Damn. And I'll say that I reverted that now. This seems like climbing up a structure dressed up like a colorful superhero.—Ryūlóng (竜龍) 03:43, 15 March 2007 (UTC)

Oh, and I know my colorful superheroes—Ryūlóng (竜龍) 04:26, 15 March 2007 (UTC)

First, I'll simply ignore the venomous ignorant answers, and try to stick to replying to good-faith ignorance and to good-faith honest disagreement.

My change to the naming conventions were because the insertion of the four-letters or less condition was made without consensus (or, indeed, discussion) a few months ago. I asked for discussion on the matter at Wikipedia talk:Naming conventions#Capitalisation, which is the main page on this issue.

Prepositions, articles, etc., are always capitalised when they're the first or last words of a title; "fear Strikes Out" is thus not indicative of anything relevant here.

Deciding on stress and importance is subjective; I know of no Manual of Style that appeals to such a principle, and I think that it would be disastrous here. (For example, I'd say that the "out of" in "Straight outta Lynwood" was clearly unstressed, "Lynwood bearing the main stress, and "Straight" a secondary stress.) --Mel Etitis (Talk) 11:10, 15 March 2007 (UTC)

A quick look at search results for "Outta" shows a fairly large number of albums, books, TV episodes, etc. with Outta in the title, all capitalized. My opinion is that creative works should be titled in the encyclopedia the same way the creator intends and that the style guide may need updating. But I wanted to put out there that there are easily dozens of other entries with capitalized "Outta" in Wikipedia, so these will need to be changed if this is to be our convention. In particular, as Weird Al is a parodist, the title of this album should match the title it is a play of (Straight Outta Compton). As well, other tributes to this such as Straight Outta Ca$hville should also be consistent one way or the other. Ryanjunk 16:26, 15 March 2007 (UTC)

I totally agree, the title on Wikipedia should match the title in a publishers catalogue, unless there is a more popular variation, what people need to remember is we're in the business of providing people with the information that they want, when and where they want it. If we're going to change titles just to keep in line with our Manual of Style, we're effectively telling people they can't have the information they want where they want it, when they search for something as it appears on the album cover, book sleeve or what have you. I find that quite unacceptable. -- Nick ^t 16:50, 15 March 2007 (UTC)

• Could those who think that we shouldn't have an MoS or naming conventions, and have no consistent style of our own, because (unlike any other publication, printed or on-line) we should simply follow whatever other sites or publications do on a case-by-case basis, please go to the relevant Talk pages and argue their case there? As that isn't currently the Wikipedia position, such arguments are irrelevant here. --Mel Etitis (Talk) 17:25, 15 March 2007 (UTC)

Is it the consensus here that it's OK for an admin to move an article, then protect the move, all without discussing the issue with those who disagree? If so, I should obviously have done that myself, when I was called in to look at the dispute. Of course, unlike Ryulong I corrected all the double redirects created by my move (I see that they've been done by someone else — and somewhat hysterically all protected).

So, for future cases: it's OK for me to page move, and protect my move? Yes? --Mel Etitis (Talk) 22:46, 15 March 2007 (UTC)

Picking a version at random and protecting is the SOP. Are you arguing that Ryulong is pushing a particular interpretation and protecting on his preferred version? That's not okay, but I don't see that he really has any opinion. - A Man In Bl♟ck (conspire | past ops) 22:51, 15 March 2007 (UTC)

User:Lt. Col. Cole

Resolved

This user is happily uploading images from multiple sources but the licenses he chose on most images are at least dubious if not completely wrong. These images may need an Admin verifying sources and licenses. --Denniss 22:29, 14 March 2007 (UTC)

See above. —xyzzy_n 22:44, 14 March 2007 (UTC)

User's talk page is littered with dozens image copyvio warnings. I blocked the account for 31h and posted a message on the talk page, and proceeding to delete their uploads. `'mikka 22:45, 14 March 2007 (UTC)

Shomari16.

Resolved

I know for sure that this user is a sockpuppet of Shomari15, who was blocked indefinitely for disruption, and continually uploading copyrighted images. Take a look at this user's contributions and compare them with Shomari15's contributions. Compare the talk pages too, for more proof. Acalamari 22:47, 14 March 2007 (UTC)

Blocked indef as a sockpuppet. --Coredesat 23:05, 14 March 2007 (UTC)

Excellent, thank you; I was lucky to come across him. I keep an eye out for more. Acalamari 23:07, 14 March 2007 (UTC)

User:UntoldLegend

Can an Admin take a look at this very new editors and work out the best approach to them? So far he is hitting the Bullying article and replacing it with text not unlike that currently on his user page, the first paragraph of which is in questionable taste (beginning "ANY CHILD BULLIED NEEDS TO DO SUICIDE NOW") and the rest of which seems to be plagiarised. --Zeraeph 23:30, 14 March 2007 (UTC)

User page deleted, user given a stern warning. Keep an eye on him, if he continues report either here or on WP:AIV. --Coredesat 23:37, 14 March 2007 (UTC)

Eye duly kept, but hope someone else will too? --Zeraeph 00:39, 15 March 2007 (UTC)

Also keeping. Newyorkbrad 05:38, 15 March 2007 (UTC)

Great Depression

Resolved

 – —Quarl ^(talk) 2007-03-15 17:38Z

• Great Depression (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)

We're going on fifty edits in twenty-four hours, most vandalism via anon IP's. How about sprot? /Blaxthos 00:34, 15 March 2007 (UTC)

I've gone ahead and semiprotected the article for a week (it can be unprotected earlier, if necessary), but for future reference, requests for protection and unprotection should go to WP:RfPP. Thanks! Flcelloguy (A note?) 00:37, 15 March 2007 (UTC)

Thanks... clicked the wrong bookmark. BTW I love your tool (I bet you get that a lot!).  :-> /Blaxthos 15:20, 15 March 2007 (UTC)

Evanescence

Well, there are many problems. First, the user es g2s has been deleting images from the Evanescence articles, because according to him the use of album cover images violates thes Fair use criteria. This is totally fake, and it can be proved. Nirvanda (band) and Nightwish have images of album covers, and these articles are Featured articles. If the use use of album cover images is forbidden, then these articles would never have passed the FA. Now, he is also contradicting himself, because he has also deleted an logo ([[:Image:Evanescence early.png, an earlier logo of the band). Logo are not album covers, so...? He has deleted it with no reasons. The only thing he said was that the use of the images hasn't been discussed. What's that??

Some edits he made (deleting images):

• 14:42, March 14, 2007
• 14:43, March 14, 2007
• 17:23, March 14, 2007
• 18:45, March 14, 2007

Another problem is that he has nominated an free-use image created by me, Image:EV-In.svg, with a very vague reason. He says this is a derivated work of the Evanescence logo. It would be a derivated logo if I would have copied the Evanescence logo and added something like some lines or whatever. Here's the discussion, but it's going nowhere.

And the last thing, he has tagged the Image:Evlithium1.jpg for deletion. This is a fair-use image, but many of the contributors in the Evanescence articles including me, reached a consensus. (this.

Also the fair use rationable stated the reasons why we are using a fair-use image by now.

No free equivalent is available or could be created that would adequately give the same information. While Evanescence is a very popular band and would probably be easier to get user-created pictures of than most, the fact remains that in general it's incredibly difficult to get good free use images of bands. The reasons are two-fold: the majority of user-contributed images are going to be from 1) dark concerts with bad lighting, where the band is spread across the stage and difficult to see, or 2) individual members posing with a fan. Highly unlikely that a decent picture of just the band outside of a concert setting could be found. (Check the fair use rationable for more reasons).

You should also check this discussion.

I really don't understand his reasons. I can even compare the fair use rationable of the main image of Nirvana (FA) with the rationable of the Evanescence (GA) rationable. The Evanescence images is very very very detailed.

Well, I hope these problems end and we can continue our Wikipedian lives normally... Armando.O^{talk • Ev} 00:59, 15 March 2007 (UTC)

User:JINXTENGU sockpuppet.

Resolved

 – —Quarl ^(talk) 2007-03-15 17:38Z

This is the second sockpuppet I've discovered within two hours: Drgiblet. They admitted to being JINXTENGU with this edit: 1. They also vandalized Persian Poet Gal's talk page with this edit: 2. Acalamari 01:51, 15 March 2007 (UTC)

Sock blocked by yours truly.¤~Persian Poet Gal ^(talk) 02:19, 15 March 2007 (UTC)

Excellent; thank you. Acalamari 02:41, 15 March 2007 (UTC)

Controversial page move proposal now a fait accompli

One user (X) made a polite request at Talk:Sinmiyangyo to move Sinmiyangyo. I disagree with his/her reasoning, but reasoning was provided, and the request was entirely proper. There were one or two short, polite, but unreasoned reactions one way or the other. There have also been longish, reasoned, and I think polite objections from two users (Y and Z), one of them myself. X on the one hand and Y and Z on the other appear to be talking past each other. Well, these things happen, and I (sorry I mean Z) thought we could keep talking a little longer and reach agreement. But X has just gone ahead and moved the page.

As an admin, I could easily reverse this move, which I'm certain was improper to make before obtaining what WP calls consensus. But as Z, I think the move was wrong at any point; I recognized that I'm interested and may be biased, so I'm "recusing myself" (ah, such grand language). Could somebody else look at what has transpired on the talk page? Thanks. -- Hoary 05:15, 15 March 2007 (UTC)

I'm Y, and I'd like to hear views from other editors/administrators regarding the move discussion on Talk:Sinmiyangyo, which I certainly don't want to see take a turn for the worse. There's no reason this dispute can't be resolved amicably. I hope the intervention of others can help to set things straight again. Thanks. Pinkville 14:03, 15 March 2007 (UTC)

Sockpuppets of 199.80.117.24 circumventing block

This IP user, with a history of personal attacks and disruptive editing on several IPs, was blocked for six months several days ago. He is already back on Wiki, using the IP address 74.195.5.83. User 74.195.5.83 is continuing discussions that were started by 199.80.117.24, using the exact same tone and language.

• [56]; [57]
• [58]

[59].

I have an open sock puppet case against this user's various socks, but reading through other cases and their suggestions, and given that the user is currently actively evading their block, it seemed like a good idea to bring it up here too.DanielEng 05:34, 15 March 2007 (UTC)

Matters concerning advocacy of pedophilia

Please refer all matters concerning advocacy of pedophilia directly to the Arbitration Committee. Please don't bring the matter up in other forums. Fred Bauder 12:32, 15 March 2007 (UTC)

Possible sock?

Resolved

 – Not a sockpuppet. —Quarl ^(talk) 2007-03-15 17:37Z

Edits by user:Konstable are pretty new and contreversial. Definatelly violated 3RR as demonstrated [here. I think 24 hours has passed so no need to give a block but perhaps he is someone's sock, seeing as he had only a couple edits in his history. --CyclePat 06:30, 15 March 2007 (UTC)

humm... I'm surprised on the low level of edits on his talk page compared to his edit history (I got those mixed up... sorry) --CyclePat 06:35, 15 March 2007 (UTC)

WP:SOCK? A better identifier might be WP:LAME. The reason Konstable's talk page is so short on content is because he blanks it whenever Moe Epsilon posts there. From what I've seen there is no good guy in the argument between those two: Konstable is overreacting horribly, while Moe is continuing the behaviour with no purpose whatsoever but annoying Konstable. --tjstrf talk 09:14, 15 March 2007 (UTC)

With a mere 7000+ edits, clearly a sock. Perhaps the sockpuppeteer isUser:KonstableSock? Seriously though, I can't help but agree wholeheartedly with tjstrf on the whole WP:LAME issue. --woggly 09:52, 15 March 2007 (UTC)

User:Chamot 07

Could someone look in on Chamot 07 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) after a bit? They're creating "game clan" articles, the first of which Elite Drug Squad. I've put {{db-club}} on that, but now they are busy with List of Australian Allied Assault Players and I don't want to just leap down their throat. But it just doesn't look like anything good is going to develop here, and I've got to toddle off now. Shenme 06:40, 15 March 2007 (UTC)

User:Fairness And Accuracy For All

From my Talk:

I just posted this to Tbeatty's talk page.

• In the past two days you have followed me to two seperate articles that I have been actively editing, that you had never edited before. Zombietime and Dismissal_of_U.S._attorneys_scandal When I did that a few weeks ago I was charged by an Admin with 'wikistalking' and given a 24 hr block. I encourage you to stop wikistalking me. - FREE FaAfA ! (yap)
  

I trust that you will deal with TBeatty's 'Wikistalking' the same way you dealt with mine. Thanks FREE FaAfA ! (yap) 07:01, 15 March 2007 (UTC)

TBeatty is a decent enough editor, FAAFA is shaping up to be banned by Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/Free Republic. I am not an univolved admin by now, and would not block TBeatty anyway for this, but if anyone feels that TBeatty is doing something wrong by checking the edits of FAAFA then please feel free to follow this up. Guy (Help!) 11:23, 15 March 2007 (UTC)

Tbeatty's 'honesty' on display.... After admitting to 'Wikistalking' me to two articles including the US Attorney article: "You are a disruptive and tendentious editor. As such, I check up on your edits." diff he actually claims on the talk page of the article in question, that I Wikistalked him to said article ! "The other editor came here jjust to revert me. He's about to be banned." diff He was entirely civil in his fallacious and specious claims though, and we know that carries much more weight around here than a mouthy truthful editor ! - FREE FaAfA ! (yap) 19:42, 15 March 2007 (UTC)

FAAFA I have been excessively lenient about WP:NPA, and I have warned you countless times. However, this was your last warning. I can see where this is going, and involved as I am, I have remained nuetral. Therefore, I am reminding you to watch yourself, or you will be blocked. Prodego ^talk 19:53, 15 March 2007 (UTC)

Although I've been having some issues of my own with Wikipedia lately, I've been watchign this whole Freerepublic thing spread and spread, and I don't think there's been a day gone by in over a month that some FR-editors-war-related incident hasn't been up here, either a new one or one taking days to resolve. By now, everyone involved ought to be on eggshells around each other, avoiding the appearances of attacks, stalkings, hostilities and improprieties. Instead, I note that Faafa is accurate. He's got an established edit history on both articles, then TBeatty shows up. while I'm also aware that TBeatty isn't a 'subject' of the RfAr for FR/BB/FaaFa/DH/BfP, he's been a highly active participant, and All I've seen shows him leaning heavily to to FR/DH/BfP side. As such, he really shouldn't be out there trying to get Faafa riled up into another violation. I think it's definitely questionable behavior to do what he's doing. This stupid FR mess is so big on Wikipedia that it's almost impossible to avoid it if you pay any attention to the Wikipedia pages of wikipedia... (or however AN/Policy/VillagePump should be called...), and anyone involved should be trying to look like they're participating in the spirit of the AN/I, not just the letter law. It's mildly unethical, I think, but I'm not sure if it violated he written text of any WP policy, since he's claiming that he's 'checking Faafa', which means with have to evaluate 'check' with AGF, meaning he's just 'reviewing for hte good of the project'. parsing games aside, I think TB should be told to step off.Neither's an angel, and they all need to know that this mess is serious. I jsut hope it ends soon. ThuranX 21:48, 15 March 2007 (UTC)

Prodego: Yeah - I know ! I know ! DECORUM and CIVILITY are the only things that really matter around here - unless you're an Admin (like those in the InShanee RAFr) - MONGO - other Wikipedians who protect 9/11 articles from the 'truthers' - or just a a member of the 'chosen few' - then decorum doesn't matter. Yup - decorum is much more important than sockpuppetry, dishonesty and POV pushing ! I do think I finally get it! Too bad I'm not an Admin or a member of the 'chosen few' and I could tell you all to ____ ___ with impugnity, but since I'm not, I best not insult our benevolent, fair and impartial masters. - FREE FaAfA ! (yap) 21:56, 15 March 2007 (UTC)

And you wonder why even those who think you're in the right with the Free Republic RfAR are pretty much resigned to you getting blocked for a lengthy amount of time. SirFozzie 22:15, 15 March 2007 (UTC)

Possible return of User:Barringa

User:Sluzzelin suspects that User:Leasing Agent (who signs himself "Diligent", not to be confused with User:Diligent) is a sock of indef blocked antisemitic User:Barringa. Sluzzelin has notified EL C, the blocking admin. NB User:Jfarber has oddly confused my name with Leasing Agent. Leasing Agent has made a post at the Humanities Ref Desk that seems antisemitic and has so far declined to retract it (he made a minor amendment). His pattern of behaviour to date is similar to, but more subtle than the more obvious trolling of Barringa. Sock or not, Admin intervention gratefully received as there is (at least) disruption to the Humanities ref desk and some discomfort being experienced by a number of editors in good standing. --Dweller 11:32, 15 March 2007 (UTC)

For now, I'm only capable of adding two special pages showing the contributions of 71.100.171.80 and 71.100.166.228. Other version of 71.100... posting similar questions and comments on the Humanities and Miscellaneous Reference Desks can be found. Thank you, Dweller, for posting this notice. ---Sluzzelin talk 13:26, 15 March 2007 (UTC)

Two more I dug up: 71.100.0.252 and 71.100.169.228. ---Sluzzelin talk 18:40, 15 March 2007 (UTC)

This user is the great Shape-Shifter himself, coming in manifold guises. I have encountered him in the form of Barringa or Nocterne or Rabbi Benton and now Leasing Agent/Diligent, that is if he uses any name at all. But it's always the same relentless and tiresome manifesto. Clio the Muse 14:00, 15 March 2007 (UTC)

• I blocked User:Leasing Agent (and protected the user pages) as a sock of User:Barringa. El_C 21:09, 15 March 2007 (UTC)

Personal attack

[60][61][62] User:Tropicaljet accuses me of committing a personal attack on user Ikeda Nobuo. While I usually think it's silly suggesting somebody is committing a personal attack by saying sb is committing a personal attack, I feel these comments are purposedly dishonest and misleading. The intent is only to miscredit me, not to stop actual personal attacks.

Jacob Peters avoiding block again

Resolved

 – Easy duck test. Seraphimblade ^{Talk to me} 20:53, 15 March 2007 (UTC)

Permablocked user and sockmaster extrodinaire Jacob Peters (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) is editing from IP 69.110.128.108 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log). This looks like a fairly obvious case with the same IP range, POV, and article interest as normal. Can some one please block the IP for a little while to slow him down? Thanks, C ^thirty-three 19:48, 15 March 2007 (UTC)

Blocked, they don't quack too much louder then that. Seraphimblade ^{Talk to me} 20:53, 15 March 2007 (UTC)

AfD

I would like to ask the opinion of administrators if it is OK to nominate the article for deletion 5 days after the previous AfD closed with "keep"? This is what happened here: Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Khachkar destruction (March 14, 2007). I was the one who nominated the article for deletion first time, but then deletion did not get a consensus because of the position of users, who nominate the article for deletion now: Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Khachkar destruction After that the article was expanded, and apparently some are not happy with the outcome and renominated it for deletion 5 days later, claiming that both sides agree to deletion, why it is not so. I don’t know if this is the right place to ask, but is there a certain policy on how often an article can be nominated for deletion and is it OK to renominate the article for deletion so soon after the previous AfD closed? Grandmaster 20:32, 15 March 2007 (UTC)

It is discouraged to quickly relist, with two exceptions. Those are when the closing admin of the first AFD decides that a relisting is needed or when the first AFD is taken to DRV and the article is relisted there. I've generally maintained that the delay needed after a no-consensus AFD is shorter than the delay needed after a keep AFD. The usual thinking is that a second nomination ought to be a few months after the first. If the new AFD is better interpreted as challenging the close of the first (your description does not sound like this), then closing the second and taking it to DRV would be the thing to do. But if it is those who opined keep in the first that think it should be deleted, what the heck, let them change their mind, it doesn't cost that much. GRBerry 22:40, 15 March 2007 (UTC)

Slow revert war

...at Fräulein. Long-standing problem, see talk page. I hate doing that. Really. Please watchlist/intervene. Thanks. Kosebamse 21:37, 15 March 2007 (UTC)