Talk:The Weeknd

RfC - capitalization of The Weeknd's stage name

The following discussion is an archived record of a request for comment. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

A summary of the debate may be found at the bottom of the discussion.

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Should the "The" in The Weeknd's stage name be capitalized or lowercase?

Some1 (talk) 19:46, 25 August 2020 (UTC)

Relevant discussions:

• Talk:The_Weeknd#the_Weekend
• Wikipedia:Biographies_of_living_persons/Noticeboard#Capitalization_of_"the"_in_a_stage_name

• Entirely wrong style. Faulty RfC. Whatever style is used will be used throughout the article. We are not going to split styles between the first section and subsequent sections. Binksternet (talk) 19:52, 25 August 2020 (UTC)

Yeah, I agree. I'll get it changed. Updated now: [1]. Some1 (talk) 19:53, 25 August 2020 (UTC)

• Lowercase. MOS:THEMUSIC says we should lowercase "the" in band names. MOS:NICKNAMETHE says we should lowercase "the" in aliases. WP:MOSCAPS says we should uppercase "the" only when "virtually all reliable sources consistently" capitalise it, and they don't for the Weeknd. Popcornfud (talk) 19:56, 25 August 2020 (UTC)
• Lowercase. The Wikipedia MOS is clear here that it should be lowercase. I personally think that the MOS should be changed so that it allows referring to him as The Weeknd, but the current guidelines are clear. Gbear605 (talk) 20:34, 25 August 2020 (UTC)
• Sentence case which is lower case in running prose. MOS:NICKNAMETHE is the guide. Binksternet (talk) 20:37, 25 August 2020 (UTC)
• Lowercase. Props to Popcornfud for so succinctly capturing the breadth of the MoS guidance on this. I actually was not sure what the manual's suggested approach was until I followed up those links, but it any event it is certainly consistent with most other major style guidelines and the by far most common approach in English prose generally, with regard to the definite article in these circumstances. So really all indicators are pointing in one direction, I would argue. Snow ^{let's rap} 21:21, 25 August 2020 (UTC)
• Capitalized, for the following reasons:

1. Abel uses “The Weeknd” (with a capital T) as his stage name. "The" is part of his stage name; it is not an article. He is not known as "Weeknd." This is according to both primary and secondary sources. Primary (his official stage name): His official website ("GRAMMY® Award-winning diamond-certified Toronto R&B / Pop icon The Weeknd captures"), his record label his record label ("through an ambitious widescreen lens, The Weeknd quietly"), his YouTube channel (“Abel adopted the stage name, "The Weeknd," after"), his Facebook page (“The official Facebook Page for The Weeknd") Secondary (what reliable, independent, and secondary sources say): Billboard (“Abel Tesfaye, aka The Weeknd, told Rolling Stone”), The Grammys, Canada's Walk of Fame ("Born Abel Tesfaye, The Weeknd..."), CBC ("Toronto's Abel Tesfaye, better known as The Weeknd..."), Complex, Variety, Toronto ("Scarborough native The Weeknd continues...), NME, The Verge ("debauched pop prince The Weeknd (aka Abel Tesfaye)"), BBC [2] ("According to tastemakers, The Weeknd - otherwise known as 22-year-old Toronto-based singer Abel Tesfaye"), People ("...Gomez and The Weeknd (née Abel Tesfaye)"), Entertainment Tonight, ABC - taken from The Weeknd's reference list.
2. The Weeknd's article has his stage name as The Weeknd with a capital T since 2011 (article was created in 2011). This is the long-standing status quo. Random time periods throughout the years: 2011, 2012, 2013, 2014, 2015, 2016, 2017, 2018, 2019, 2020 all correctly capitalize his stage name as The Weeknd in the lead sentence. Hence the RfC if we want to change this almost decade-long status quo.
3. MOS:THEMUSIC includes guidance for bands, not solo artists, which caused this recent discussion on its talk page: Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Music#MOSTHEMUSIC_for_solo_artists and no clear directions.
4. MOS:NICKNAMETHE links to MOS:THECAPS, which lists exceptions. The Open Championship is listed as an exception; I don't know if The Weeknd is an exception or not. Others have stated he's not. If not, then I believe WP:Ignore All Rules applies here to keep things accurate, since this is basically a trade-off between accuracy and following the MOS, IMHO.
5. There really is no consistency regarding "the"/"The" being used throughout different Wikipedia articles, so I'm assuming some are determined on a case-by-case basis, which should also happen for "The Weeknd". For example, someone mentioned on MOS:THEMUSIC's talk page about The Alchemist (musician)'s stage name being capitalized. The Bahamas is also capitalized.
6. Abel uses The Weeknd with a capital T as his stage name. If Wikipedia decides to start off The Weeknd’s article with “Abel Makkonen Tesfaye (born February 16, 1990), known professionally as the Weeknd” (with a lowercase t), not only is that giving readers inaccurate information regarding his stage name, but is basically telling Abel that he doesn’t know the casing of his own stage name. Some1 (talk) 21:22, 25 August 2020 (UTC) Some1 (talk) 03:32, 26 August 2020 (UTC)

   Some1, this last point (6) can prehaps be addressed by rephrasing the lead to start with, "The Weeknd, the stage name for Abel Makkonen Tesfaye..." or somesuch. ~Kvng (talk) 19:31, 26 August 2020 (UTC)

   That's actually a decent idea and avoids giving readers inaccurate information regarding the casing of his stage name in the lead sentence. Some1 (talk) 21:15, 26 August 2020 (UTC)

• If sources are evenly split, we should use lowercase per our guidelines. If a clear majority use the official capitalization, then that is what our title policy says we should follow.--Yaksar (let's chat) 21:26, 25 August 2020 (UTC)
• Lowercase – It's not like The Hague. It's not about whether official and primary sources cap it, but rather about whether independent sources consistently cap it; they don't (even if a majority, that's short of "consistently"). For the concert name, assuming it's a proper name or trademark, cap it: "The Weeknd Experience". Dicklyon (talk) 21:27, 25 August 2020 (UTC)
• Use lower-case the, per MOS:THECAPS, MOS:NICKNAMETHE, MOS:THEMUSIC, and MOS:TM, which exist for good reasons, including this exact kind of question, which is already long-settled.  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  21:56, 25 August 2020 (UTC)
• Lowercase. In Some1's lengthy argument, the only really key important is what independent, reliable sources do, not the singer himself. While some do use uppercase, it is far from the only style used. Among the sources that prefer the lowercase are The NY Times The Washington Post Esquire and Rolling Stone. -- Calidum 02:54, 26 August 2020 (UTC)
• Lowercase All the linked MOSs point to "the". —Ojorojo (talk) 15:53, 26 August 2020 (UTC)
• Lowercase is consistent with policy and previous discussions of this question. ~Kvng (talk) 19:23, 26 August 2020 (UTC)
• Lowercase per MOS:NICKNAMETHE, Prefer capitalised but MOS:NICKNAMETHE trumps preference. –Davey2010^Talk 19:30, 26 August 2020 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Clean up

Okay, so obviously judging by the votes/comments so far in the RfC above, there's a clear consensus to lower-case his stage name. The articles listed on Template:The Weeknd will need clean up with all of the "The" changed to "the" for consistency. Some1 (talk) 21:31, 26 August 2020 (UTC)

The template itself needs some clean-up as "remix" is not a proper noun and should not be capitalized. Walter Görlitz (talk) 18:54, 27 August 2020 (UTC)

To clarify, I meant the individual articles listed on the template (such as Wicked Games, Twenty Eight (song), The Zone (song), etc. etc.) will need "The" lowercased to "the" in the lead paragraph and in the body of the articles. Some1 (talk) 21:54, 27 August 2020 (UTC)

Ew, were' really using "the Weeknd" as a disambiguator? Looks awkward. ---Another Believer _(Talk) 20:54, 27 August 2020 (UTC)

You mean, for example, Faith (the Weeknd song) as opposed to Faith (The Weeknd song)? There'd be no sense at all in capitalising it there. Though I'd personally vouch for just Faith (Weeknd song).

Of course, now we are touching on the ridiculously inconsistent way Wikipedia handles "the" in article titles generally. I wrote about this in an essay if anyone is hungry for more pontification about the/The. Popcornfud (talk) 21:01, 27 August 2020 (UTC)

Binksternet has just informed me about this RFC about using "The" in article titles so I may have jumped the gun here. Didn't occur to me this would be a separate issue. Popcornfud (talk) 21:12, 27 August 2020 (UTC)

Associated acts

I see the last discussion has moved to the talk page. If an "association" is not discussed in the article, it is not both "significant and notable to this artist's career" as is stated in the template's documentation (template:Infobox musical artist#associated acts). Just because they worked on three songs does not mean that the association was "significant and notable to this artist's career". Walter Görlitz (talk) 17:04, 11 September 2020 (UTC)

Clearly, Benarnold98 (talk · contribs) you are not familiar with the template's documentation. I have listed the salient parts of them here. There is no way that just because someone did three songs with someone, but no one has written about those associations—at least not enough to include some prose about those interactions—the association are not "significant and notable to this artist's career". Prove otherwise with more than just a count of songs. Walter Görlitz (talk) 04:18, 12 September 2020 (UTC)

@Walter Görlitz: I don't care either way if Lil Uzi Vert is included in Abel's associated acts section or not, but their work together is mentioned in this article in the 2016-2018 section. Furthermore, he is included on Lil Uzi Vert's associated acts. --Osh33m (talk) 20:07, 12 September 2020 (UTC)

You are correct. The term was different than the one added to the infobox. Mentioned twice in one paragraph. Walter Görlitz (talk) 04:29, 13 September 2020 (UTC)

@Walter Görlitz: As correctly stated by @Osh33m:, Lil Uzi Vert is mentioned on two occasions in the article. The Weeknd is also in the Associated Acts section on Lil Uzi Vert's article. Users clearly agree with this which is why it is still there, so I'm unsure why you feel Lil Uzi Vert should not be mentioned in The Weeknd's associated acts. As well as having multiple songs together, they toured together. See the first two paragraphs of this section of Lil Uzi Vert's article if you are unfamiliar with this. You seem to be the only person against Lil Uzi Vert appearing in the Associated Acts section. Both myself and @Osh33m: agree that he should be in this section. I hope this improves your understanding and Lil Uzi Vert can be added once again. Benarnold98 (talk) 18:32, 13 September 2020 (UTC)

Whether users who don't know the guidelines agree with it or not, it's clearly not an association that is "significant and notable to this artist's career". Make the point without relying on "other stuff exists" on Wikipedia as reason. Show me how the association was significant and notable to this artist's career via sources or drop it. Also, I mentioned that it was discussed in two sentences in a larger paragraph. Osh33m mentioned that it was in the 2016-2018 section. Walter Görlitz (talk) 20:04, 13 September 2020 (UTC)

Lil Uzi Vert, again? The case still has not been met that their interaction is significant and notable. If it were, there would be more written about it here. Right? Walter Görlitz (talk) 00:10, 7 January 2021 (UTC)

One thing further, WP:COMMONKNOWLEDGE is not appropriate. Document the significant and notable relationship or leave it out of the infobox. Walter Görlitz (talk) 00:57, 7 January 2021 (UTC)

I already have mentioned the significant and notable relationship many times, furthermore, users such as Osh33m agree with me. Furrthermore, The Weeknd is mentioned on Lil Uzi Vert's associated acts. He so obviously should be featured there. Benarnold98 (talk) 15:54, 7 January 2021 (UTC)

Mentioned is not enough! Supply sources to show the interaction is significant and notable. Walter Görlitz (talk) 17:49, 7 January 2021 (UTC)

There's no requirement for two artists to be listed on each other's associated acts for neatness or balance. It's entirely possible for Artist A to be highly significant in Artist B's career, while Artist B is a very minor connection to Artist A.

Regarding Lil Uzi Vert, to me it looks like the Weeknd collaborated with him on the 2017 song "UnFazed", and made an unimportant cameo appearance in a 2017 video. That's not enough to list as associated acts. Binksternet (talk) 18:24, 7 January 2021 (UTC)

That doesn't really make sense to me. If Artist A had a highly significant impact in Artist B's career, why would the impact not have the same effect the other way around? --Osh33m (talk) 03:05, 8 January 2021 (UTC)

Cliff Richard rose to fame in the UK (and lesser extend the rest of the world) in the late fifties and early sixties. After he was famous, he did duets with several female singers. Their careers took off because of the duets. They had no effect on his career. He should be listed in their infoboxes, but they should not be listed in his (although I see that the first (Olivia Newton-John) is. The two later in his career should not appear on either as both artists were established by this time. Walter Görlitz (talk) 05:08, 8 January 2021 (UTC)

I don't think it's fair or sensible to say those duets had "no" effect on his career. The fact that he collaborated with female singers at all means that he was adding events to his own tenure as a performer which most likely did have an impact. --Osh33m (talk) 15:44, 8 January 2021 (UTC)

I don't think an opinion will cut it. In the case of Cliff Richard, he was already a top-selling performer and the duets added nothing to his career. They were so inconsequential, that they're not even discussed in his article (despite the duets charting well). In the case of Tesfaye, show it with sources. Walter Görlitz (talk) 02:24, 10 January 2021 (UTC)

Well you are also just stating your opinion, aren't you? Anyway, like I said in September last year I don't care one way or another whether Lil Uzi Vert is included on Abel's Associated Acts section or not, but it should be based on the fact that Abel is included on his. This is just the argument for WP: Consistency. --Osh33m (talk) 20:47, 11 January 2021 (UTC)

Am I? My opinion actually is that the parameter should be removed from the infobox. What I am doing here is explaining the current consensus on how the parameter should be used. Walter Görlitz (talk) 21:32, 11 January 2021 (UTC)

I was referring to when you said "they had no effect on his career." --Osh33m (talk) 04:07, 12 January 2021 (UTC)

I see. You'll notice that none are discussed in the article. Walter Görlitz (talk) 04:12, 12 January 2021 (UTC)

What I also noticed about wikipedia is that every single detail about every single musician isn't included in every single one of their articles. Anyway, I've said my piece. --Osh33m (talk) 04:32, 13 January 2021 (UTC)

That principle is known as WP:NOTNEWS. We should only be writing about the events that are significant and notable to this artist's career. Walter Görlitz (talk) 04:46, 13 January 2021 (UTC)

I was going by the principle of WP: Consistency. --Osh33m (talk) 18:15, 13 January 2021 (UTC)

First, the page you linked to (both times) is a dab. There is no policy, no guideline, no principle and no expectation of reciprocal data between articles. Someone can be vital to the launching of one artist's career and have no effect on the other artist's career, not even meriting a mention or a footnote. I could give many more examples, but that principle is self-apparent. Walter Görlitz (talk) 18:54, 13 January 2021 (UTC)

I don't think it was always a dab, but doesn't it link to consistency as a breakdown in other topics? I still disagree about collaborating having "no effect" on a bigger artist's career, but I also already told you three times now that I don't care if Lil Uzi Vert is included or not on Abel's associated acts. What else do you want to discuss here? --Osh33m (talk) 04:15, 14 January 2021 (UTC)

You can still disagree about some asymmetrical collaborations, but you are clearly in the minority. 07:11, 14 January 2021 (UTC)

There is nothing clear about a majority or minority here since it has been only me and you back and forth. Also if you're still on about the whole "no effect" thing then it's irrelevant to the actual point of this section which means there is nothing else to say. --Osh33m (talk) 16:35, 14 January 2021 (UTC)

There really is. @Binksternet: to state it again so it's not just me v. you. Walter Görlitz (talk) 16:54, 14 January 2021 (UTC)

There really is what? @Binksternet: hasn't said anything here for a week but if you're counting everyone who participated, then it's 2 v. 2 because @Benarnold98: thinks Lil Uzi Vert should be on Abel's AA list too. And that is what the point of this section's discussion is, but for the fourth time now I am telling you I do not care whether he is included or not. So why do you insist on prolonging this discussion? What are you trying to get out of this? --Osh33m (talk) 23:07, 14 January 2021 (UTC)

What does a week matter, the editor made a clear statement, and WP:NOTVOTE. The point we're discussing here is not whether or not Lil Uzi Vert and the Weeknd should be associated acts (which they clearly should not be) but whether someone can make a significant and notable contribution to someone else's career without it being significant and notable to their own; a reciprocal "association" effect. Walter Görlitz (talk) 23:14, 14 January 2021 (UTC)

Are we still here? I took a look around the interwebs and found nothing to support Lil Uzi Vert as an artist closely interconnected with the Weeknd. Sources don't talk about the two of them working together frequently. This isn't a math exercise with automatic listing as "associated artist" after some number of collabs; it's supposed to summarize how the artists are portrayed in reliable sources. Binksternet (talk) 23:26, 14 January 2021 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 11 October 2020

Add the following, proposedly as a section between "Personal life" and "Awards and nominations" (becoming "6" in "Contents"): — Preceding unsigned comment added by Log Date 7 15 2 (talk • contribs) 13:34, 11 October 2020 (UTC)

 Not done Not without a source. Walter Görlitz (talk) 16:16, 11 October 2020 (UTC)

I see, you wanted the section below. Walter Görlitz (talk) 16:17, 11 October 2020 (UTC)

Lyrics and controversies

The second verse of the song "Lost in the Fire", with the lines "You said you might be into girls, said you're going through a phase/Keeping your heart safe/Well, baby, you can bring a friend/She can ride on top your face/While I fuck you straight", caused controversy. The lines were called offensive and homophobic, and were criticized by some for fetishizing bisexuality and perpetuating the falsehood that a person can be "turned straight". The lyrics were also accused by some of alluding to corrective rape. The Weeknd has yet to directly respond to the criticism. Log Date 7 15 2 (talk) 13:34, 11 October 2020 (UTC)

 Not done Wasn’t a big enough controversy to warrant inclusion on this article. If the song has an article it could go there. Trillfendi (talk) 13:36, 11 October 2020 (UTC)

References

Time for a new Image? REQUEST

We should probably update the image we have right now for The Weeknd. His whole 2019-now presence has been the red suit so I feel like that should be the picture that users see as it's the latest look for him.

Here are some links for images that we can use:

https://images.sk-static.com/images/media/img/col4/20191130-223218-182475.jpg

https://i.pinimg.com/originals/c6/c7/9b/c6c79b1f5c7c5368ec4ca73a9afa9f71.jpg

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EKfG3iDUEAAoxo-.jpg

https://media1.popsugar-assets.com/files/thumbor/btExpNd_Vnd0YzRaixRHOs9dszg/309x0:2449x2140/fit-in/2048xorig/filters:format_auto-!!-:strip_icc-!!-/2020/02/19/846/n/1922283/2fc6c75b5e4d8a486eeef4.57603435_/i/when-is-weeknd-dropping-his-new-album-after-hours.jpg — Preceding unsigned comment added by ChiefRam0n (talk • contribs) 03:30, 11 January 2021 (UTC)

It’s not as simple as taking a picture from a website. It has to be licensed for free use. Most aren’t. Luckily an applicable one is. Trillfendi (talk) 03:57, 11 January 2021 (UTC)