Talk:Anarchism and veganism

Sources?

From my cursory reading of the sources included on this page it appears to me the only source which actually uses the term is Wadham who self-applies it, and Dominick who invented it. None of the other sources actually say anything about "veganarchism." I'm not sure this is enough to warrant a WP article, prove me wrong? Kellen^T 11:26, 5 April 2009 (UTC)

Additionally, is it enough for someone to claim to be both vegan and anarchist for them to be labeled "veganarchist" or do they actually have to claim the term? The examples in the 'convictions' section seem to be people who are vegans and anarchists, but not necessarily people who would "perceive both philosophies to be essentially the same" or see the "ideology as a combined theory." Kellen^T 15:23, 5 April 2009 (UTC)

Am just getting round to putting in a couple of things from the culture, a cd released by a band features the veganarchist symbol as a main cover and also a couple of veganarchist cookbooks (just to put into a list). Admittedly its limited at the moment, but shortly I'll be skimming books so that I can backup the page with the philosophical footing of veganism and anarchism (and hopefully will find another reference or two for veganarchism and veganarchists which I know I've read before), as there is plenty of discussion on the topics combined. More so discussing "vegan anarchism" rather than "veganarchism" however, hence the redirection of the term. I'll change the first sentence to make that a bit clearer though.

Just to confirm; the term has to be self-applied to be applied (either seperately or combined). This is similar to say Anarcho-communists, whether they describe themselves as anarchist communists or the former is not relevant. The idea of them being combined terms, is merely that when believing in two political theories, you must combine them both to make up an overall political opinion, whether doing so consciously or not (for those who do not see them as the same). Also, its not just Dan who has used the term, but also Veganarchy.net, another few blogs and in a communique from the G20 riots, as well as what was mentioned above. A little bit of time and I'll be able to improve. Hope that makes sense and is ok. - ThompsonFest 14:08, 6 April 2009 (UTC)

I have pretty much never heard this term used, outside of Wikipedia. I mean, Propagandhi are cited as "veganarchists" because they're vegans and anarchists... but then they're also feminists and pro-queer, amongst lots of other things. Hand-picking these two and applying them willy-nilly isn't really helpful, and I don't see the justification for that bit... SetaLyas (talk) 23:30, 11 April 2009 (UTC)

Linking and quotes

This article is horribly over linked. Firstly we should only link to an article on the first mention of the linked term. Further mentions should not be linked. Secondly, we don't have to link to every single word that contains an article in its title. So, for example, consider the paragraph:

A final comparison made by Brian A. Dominick between interpersonal relations and human-animal relations is the adult treatment of young people, children and the elderly, further claiming that in each case the oppressed is seen as feeble and incompetent, in an ageist manner rooted in adultocracy; a notion that adults possess a certain responsibility not found in the aged or young. Dominick concludes that like animals, those oppressed by ageism are treated as objects, exploited whenever possible and rarely granted respect by adult humans.

None of these links add anything to the article.

Finally, we have to be very careful with using colour quotes in articles, as they lead to POV problems. The two quotes in this article are from non-reliable sources (including the lyrics of a song from a marginally notable band.) I would propose both be removed. Rockpocket 17:47, 12 April 2009 (UTC)

Have removed most of the links (apart from a few that I think are relevant) from that paragraph, hope it looks better. Which two quotes were you referring to? I have changed the propagandhi lyric reference to there website which includes the lyrics. They may not seem that notable, but if they are on wikipedia they must be. Which other quote were you refrencing? - ThompsonFest 20:19, 12 April 2009 (UTC)

Individuals

Looking at the sources provided for the various individuals described as "veganarchists", I can't see that term used, either by the individuals themselves or by reliable third parties, to describe them. We have them described as eco-terrorists, green anarchists and vegans but we are in WP:SYN territory to use these descriptions as support. Even "self-proclaimed by SHAC prisoner Dan Wadham" doesn't actually self-proclaim. Its an anonymous contributor to Infoshop that describes him as an "veganarchist". This obviously leaves us with a WP:BLP issue. Could someone, presumably ThompsonFest, provide a reliable source that explicitly uses this term to describe these individuals. If not, they all have to go, I'm afraid. Rockpocket 18:06, 12 April 2009 (UTC)

Just read up on WP:SYN, hadn't realised that. I pointed out above I thought it was ok to make that judgement, suprised nobody responded earlier. I guess the individuals have got to go then. I thought the infoshop ref to dan wadham being a veganarchist was relevant, but realise that without him including it it isn't. Sorry about that. ThompsonFest 20:22, 12 April 2009 (UTC)

Just noticed the source for Dean Cain at ELPSN which states he's a vegan anarchist, would this be an reliable source? Although admitedly only a sentence was based on him, it was more out of curiosity. ThompsonFest 20:58, 12 April 2009 (UTC)

I don't think this qualifies as a reliable third party source. ask123 (talk) 16:38, 1 October 2009 (UTC)

Culture and music

I have moved the following section here for discussion. The problems is as follows: Nowhere (with the sole exception of a listings page) are any of these entities described as "veganarchists". There are no reliable sources provided establishing notability. A number of points simply list shops or websites selling things. Myspace and Amazon are not a reliable sources for anything other than Myspace and Amazon.

Are there any reliable sources that describe any of these as notable cultural aspects of "veganarchism" ? Rockpocket 18:23, 12 April 2009 (UTC)

On Hello Bastards myspace page and Punk Oi UK they clearly state they are "veganarchists", see their headline and this poster which is on their page. The other bands and book are acredited by dual sources confirming their beliefs in veganism and anarchism, thus veganarchism.

Apart from what I mentioned, I think Virus' album cover is pretty notable - its the Veganarchy symbol, it couldn't be mistaken for anything else, and the source is again from a website non-myspace/amazon. The myspace sources are used if backed up by another. - ThompsonFest - 19:51, 12 April 2009 (UTC)

The Punk Oi UK lists is a listing page, which is not an acceptable indicator of notability (see WP:BAND exclusions, "Works comprising merely trivial coverage, such as articles that simply report performance dates"). As I stated before, Myspace is not a reliable source. You state: The other bands and book are acredited by dual sources confirming their beliefs in veganism and anarchism, thus veganarchism. Did you read WP:SYN? because you have just described a classic example of it. Moreover, you need to show these are notable examples, not just examples. Virus' use of the symbol may be relevant, but you have provided no sources showing their notability. Rockpocket 19:15, 12 April 2009 (UTC)

As I replied above, just read the WP:SYN, so I guess the bands apart from Virus come under that category. Didn't look into WP:BAND before including details, so I guess until there is something established about Hello Bastards on their label or as a review it isn't relevant either. Is the source to Virus' label selling the cd a notable reference, or this one? Not fully sure what you mean. Ignore my reply to propagandhi, I realise they come under WP:SYN and aren't relevant either. ThompsonFest - 20:30, 12 April 2009 (UTC)

Culture

• In 2007, Another Dinner is Possible: More Than Just a Vegan Cookbook was released by Active Distribution and the Anarchist Teapot. Promoting both veganism and anarchism within cooking, the book raises funds for Brighton Anarchist Black Cross.

• Roots of compassion and Buzzbox Records sell a patch that reads "Veganarchist - No meat, no milk, no masters".

• Roter shop, a website in Germany, sell the veganarchy symbol on badges.

Music

“ But you cannot deny that meat is still murder. Dairy is still rape. And I'm still as stupid as anyone, but I know my mistakes. I have recognized one form of oppression, now I recognize the rest. - Propagandhi lyric ”

• In August 2007, Dorset based anarcho-punk band Virus released 'Unacceptable Noise Levels. The album is distributed by Active Distribution and features the veganarchy symbol on the front cover. The band also use the symbol as part of their logo.

• Propagandhi are an active Canadian veganarchist band supporting animal liberation, anarchist causes and vegan lifestyles.

• Hello Bastards are a London based straight edge veganarchist crust-punk band.

• Active Slaughter are an active veganarcho-punk band from London.

Direct Action

This section has excess information. What source says "all anarchists hold their ideals passionately"? That sounds a bit too subjective for a Wikipedia article. Also, why does the section mention a bunch of violent organizations, which are "not necessarily anarchist"? What are their ties to anarchism? 98.218.68.30 (talk) 03:18, 19 December 2009 (UTC)

Bi-isms and/or multi-isms

Veganarchism: Veganism + Anarchism

Ecofeminism: Ecology + Feminism

EcoSocialists: Ecology + Socialism

Anarcha-feminism

And that's just off the top of my head, there are others I'm sure. How about an entry about the genetal bi-ism idea/term/social phenomenon, and/or more generally about multi-isms as ideas, terms, and social phenomena and movements. (relevant critical aside: then when we create that I'll hope we can include some links to criticism, not of the concepts, but of the choice of terms since it forces (many) people to either label ourself with a small subset of the much larger set of things they believe in, or else to adopt an unwieldy long label like "Eco-femina-anarcho-vego-socialist" - neither of these two options being a good options, many would argue)

Regardless of how you agree or don't with the parenthetical remark - the multitude of examples (each of significant social relevance) including the above, suggest we need an entry for the concept. --Harel (talk) 05:50, 30 January 2010 (UTC)

put this on your facebook

i created a portmanteau of the veganarchism flag and symbol here. username 1 (talk)

Notability

Is veganarchism really notable? I realize that there are lots of people who are both vegans and anarchists, but does anyone other than Brian Dominick and the few people maintaining this article actually use the term? I'm not convinced. --N-k (talk) 06:25, 20 May 2010 (UTC)

Does anyone have a response? --N-k (talk) 12:29, 11 June 2010 (UTC)

I don't get it. The External Links section lists numerous blogs/publications that prominently use the term. Your question is satisfied by the article itself. --Introspector (talk) 05:57, 14 June 2010 (UTC)

Yeah, one of the links is a 404, one of them is a two-post blog, one is a twitter stream, and one is an anonymous indymedia post. I guess that if you read N-k's post very narrowly, you're right, some people use the term. But the larger point N-k is trying to make is: is this a sufficiently widespread term to warrant a WP article? The blog links alone don't make that case. Kellen^T 10:46, 14 June 2010 (UTC)

I didn't find any 404s, but your point is taken about the sources not exactly being major movement sites. Still, some of these sources (the UK Indymedia article, especially) appear to be quite independent of the original Dominick text, in terms of not so much as referencing it. It looks like there is independent theorizing taking place on the topic. That said, I've see there's an article for Anarchism and animal rights that has heavy overlap with this one. Maybe this could be condensed and merged with that. Admittedly, I'm on the Talk page because I myself was wondering about the notability. --Introspector (talk) 15:52, 14 June 2010 (UTC)

ambiguous

'Veganarchy' is an ambiguous term. USA had a Vegetarian Party political party in the 1900s, and if there had been a vegan one that got elected, 'veganarchy' would have been more likely to mean 'rule by vegans', i.e. 'vegan-archy' is how a word meaning 'vegan-government' is constructed, with proper etymology... serious grammatical words are not constructed by overlapping them, for example 'start' does not mean 'star art' any more than 'veganarchy' should seriously mean 'vegan-anarchy' rather than using the latter term with or without the hyphen, and leaving the new term to mean 'rule by vegans', as it is the only Greek-suffix word that can mean that. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2601:8:AA00:41D:5246:5DFF:FE75:2C06 (talk) 10:15, 19 August 2014 (UTC)

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