Think EVs are too expensive? Here are 11 for under $40K.
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Our 2018 (July) Tesla Model 3 (LR RWD) came with an 8 year, 120,000 mile battery warranty.
We are now 148 miles from the expiration of that warranty.
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I could go dig out my travel charger and see what the power factor is for mine on L1 charging. I don't have a way to measure it for L2 charging though.
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So rent a frigging car. These are current production vehicles, readily available.
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Yeah it is a tricky thing to measure because the EVSE doesn't really control the power factor. It is all in the charger in the vehicle, so your power factor will change depending on what vehicle you are charging.
If you can measure power factor for L1 charging though it should give you a good idea of power factor for L2 charging for the same vehicle.
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There are a number of ways in which leasing, yes with the downpayment included, can make more sense than buying. It's not a 'scam', it's simply something you have to calculate based on your needs.
This is really basic stuff that a million articles have been written about, so I don't see the point in rehashing it all in the comments.
But I do think that for anyone who has uncertainty about the life of batteries that it's one more reason to consider leasing, since that's removed from the equation.
This is really basic stuff that a million articles have been written about, so I don't see the point in rehashing it all in the comments.
But I do think that for anyone who has uncertainty about the life of batteries that it's one more reason to consider leasing, since that's removed from the equation.
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Other than that somebody has to buy a new car or else there are no used cars.
Some countries have a far higher percentage of used car sales; they import them used (mostly legitimately, but it’s also a major way for car thieves to make money).
Actually that might make an interesting few articles: the logistics of international car selling, the impact of connected car tech on theft (beyond the MitM attacks that you’ve already covered), the issues of transporting battery cars vs ICEVs.
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Generally speaking, 4WD vehicles lock all the wheels together leading to "crab walking" while turning on pavement. Because of this, they disclaim that 4WD is only legal off road. AWD cars on the other hand are loaded up with differentials so that the wheels all turn independently and have no low-traction requirements. I don't think how this is implemented comes in to play. Dual motor, tri-motor and 4-motor AWD EVs exist, using differentials to balance the absence of motors. There are also AWD hybrids with no mechanical connection to the back wheels - they just put a motor on the back axel.
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I would expect the charger to have a good power factor, but I've never seen it measured. I'll give it a try.
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They're supposed to be power factor corrected like a switching power supply. TI makes a controller for this specific function.
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Define thousands upon thousands down... is $3k a lot for a lease? (I honestly don't know)/ This Nissan Leaf lease seems pretty reasonable at $52/month with $3k down. That comes to $5k over 3 years total - which is probably roughly the depreciation of a vehicle over 3 years anyway. A friend leasec Nissan Leaf like this and drove it for his 90-100 mile round trip commute (they closed his satellite office and he had to drive to another one), he said that the savings in the gas was more than the cost of the lease.
I found this for a a Kia EV6 for $170/month with a 4k down payment. Again, I don't know much about leases to know if this is a good deal or not for leaes... but again the math seems to say that the price seems roughly tracks with vehicle depreciation (I'm not sure how the $7500 credit on a lease factors in)
But these are prices in VHCOL SF Bay Area - I would think it will be less in other parts of the country.
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So that's what, 20,000 miles a year? Pretty healthy usage. Did you get that sweet free Supercharging and go bananas?
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You know, our recently purchased almost new EV is very close to what we paid for our small SUV 25 years ago. The SUV still runs and drives. Passed it along to our son.
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In a funny counterstory, I had to drive our son to the gas station in our EV b/c his CRV ran out of gas this morning. Unfortunately it left the interior of my EV smelling like a leaky gas can. I'm sure that will pass.
I should have taken a picture of our EV sitting next to a gas pump.
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Also a reasonable take. Lease now, to get into an EV, and wait for the dust to settle before you consider buying.
The thing about buying a car is the moment you drive it off the lot it depreciates. That's a kind of cost.
Also, the longer you own the car the more you will end up paying maintenance on it, also a cost.
The lease down payment isn't right for everyone, but what it does is front load things you will probably realize later anyway.
There's a whole ecosystem that leasing creates. You lease a BMW for instance. You get into a luxury car for a lower payment, and trade it in later for a new one, and always have a nice new car. You never pay it off, but it's a known fixed expense in life to have the car, and you're fine with that.
BMW can give favorable lease deals to get cars off the lot without actually putting their cars "on sale". That protects their luxury brand status. The sticker never goes down, but you can get it for "less" with the lease terms disguising that.
Then, when you turn it in, BMW has a low mileage car (part of your lease terms) that they can flip into their certified pre-owned market, and people who want to get the savings of a used car have a stead flow of product to buy from.
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This is always the issue with tech: there’s always a new shinier version about to come out.
However, the old car will still work in its principal role of being a motor with four wheels no matter how shiny the new car is. Unlike phones where the principal use is to play candy crush, which would stop working when their servers updated and you couldn’t install the new client on your old phone.
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The Leaf is a fine car if a person mostly chargers it on a L1 or L2 charger. No battery heating problems in that use profile. It is even okay for an occasional day trip where a person drives it a full charge out, fast charges and returns home where they resume daily charging with a L1 or L2 charger.
It is not however a good road trip car where the driver expects multiple L3 fast charges in a row b/c the BMS will slow the fast charger to nearly L2 charge speeds to prevent the battery from overheating. One thing it can do is drive in any direction for a full charge, stop for a L3 charge, and continue on in any direction. That's about 400 miles away from home. L2 charge overnight. And return home. That it does well.
Personally this takes care of 100% of our EV needs. It's all about a person's objective expectations about their needs. However, we bought a Kona instead b/c that deal presented itself before the Leaf did. I was looking for minimum miles on the odometer in our used car price range. Leaf Plus or Kona Ultimate. I had to drive a couple state away to make that deal work but it saved us significant money.
Also, couple that with the CHADEMO charger standard fading away b/c only the Leaf and a couple of other EVs use it. They will become rare in the future but however, if a person is mostly charging at home L1/L2 and using the car locally, who cares?
We're charging at home L1 until the time when I can install our L2 charger. L1 keeps up with our driving if I plug in every other afternoon after work.
It is not however a good road trip car where the driver expects multiple L3 fast charges in a row b/c the BMS will slow the fast charger to nearly L2 charge speeds to prevent the battery from overheating. One thing it can do is drive in any direction for a full charge, stop for a L3 charge, and continue on in any direction. That's about 400 miles away from home. L2 charge overnight. And return home. That it does well.
Personally this takes care of 100% of our EV needs. It's all about a person's objective expectations about their needs. However, we bought a Kona instead b/c that deal presented itself before the Leaf did. I was looking for minimum miles on the odometer in our used car price range. Leaf Plus or Kona Ultimate. I had to drive a couple state away to make that deal work but it saved us significant money.
Also, couple that with the CHADEMO charger standard fading away b/c only the Leaf and a couple of other EVs use it. They will become rare in the future but however, if a person is mostly charging at home L1/L2 and using the car locally, who cares?
We're charging at home L1 until the time when I can install our L2 charger. L1 keeps up with our driving if I plug in every other afternoon after work.
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Sticking with ICE vehicles for now Corolla Base MSRP for 22K no special tax credit needed etc.
let me know when a peoples EV shows up. Something for the working person who just wants affordable transportation to get to work and do errands.
let me know when a peoples EV shows up. Something for the working person who just wants affordable transportation to get to work and do errands.
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You mean like the Corvette? And the Ferrari?
I agree, the Fiat 500e is expensive. I think it has plenty of utility for two people, occasionally two people and a couple of flexible children. The average person drives about 40 miles a day. The Fiat can manage that.
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No, I did see your note, I just felt like noting that its hardly just the US that's scared about EV dumping.
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My very first car was a Puegot 504 that was more rust than metal and had a gas tank from a completely different car. It revved at high speed when you pressed the clutch. I do now appreciate a car that doesn't do that.
Now I just ride my bike to work.
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You get downvoted, (this is expected this is an ev thread on Ars) but you're right. 49k for the Kona is double what I paid for my Corolla, if this is the new normal, I guess I will walk and bike a lot in the future.
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Perhaps you should do 15 seconds of research before calling someone a liar.
Hell, you can lease an Ariya for $109 a month if you don't mind a 2023 model:
I'm not seeing any lease deals on Hyundai's page unlike yesterday, but there's this on the Ioniq 6 and a friend in the Bay Area literally just signed a $220/month lease on an Ioniq 5 SEL last week.
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Those people buy used cars. Here are more than 500 EVs that cost less than $20,000, within 200 miles of Washington DC.
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I'm 5'11" and have no problems driving the Leaf. It is quite comfortable. Maybe the seat wasn't far enough back for you? Or you daily a pickup truck normally?
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We have to make a point of driving our ICEV once a week to keep the 12V battery charged. The EV gets everything done that we need doing.
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My ICEV has a battery tender. Originally that was because it spends the winter sitting in the garage, but I'd be lying if I said it didn't get some use year round.
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Oh, it sounded a bit to me like you were saying the cheaper EU models I listed would be harshly affected as well. And yes, even here in the EU I am quite concerned about Chinese subsidies and BEV dumping, for some pretty obvious reasons. I want cheap BEVs as much as anybody, but not when nobody here could afford them due to local automotive industries here going bust. The whole automotive sector employs some 14 million Europeans after all, IIRC. Not much keen on losing 14 million jobs due to Chinese subsidies, myself!
Still, the cheaper BEVs I noted are mostly made locally, with the exception of some models' battery packs still sourced from China. And hopefully even that is slated to change with new battery factories and raw minerals bilateral agreements coming up, although battery factories are hard and slow to set up here – just look at SVOLT Europe. Hope there is an article about any EU tariffs from you later on, even if you mostly focus on the US markets ;-)
Although unlike the 100% instant US tariffs for cars and battery packs, I'd personally be more in favour of just imposing harsh tariffs on complete Chinese cars as well, but phasing in the tariffs on supply chain battery packs more gradually, before any local production hopefully ramps up. Of course China might still retaliate raising the battery pack export prices. No idea, not a politician...
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I looked up the price of an OEM EV battery for my EV (Kona). $12K from an online OEM source. The Leaf Plus replacement battery was $15K last time I looked.
The actual price will be higher if the dealership sees an opportunity to soak the customer and if it is one of those kinds of dealerships. You can watch a few YouTube videos to see what the process of removing and installing a battery into a modern EV is. Quite simple. Quite fast too. A shop needs a two post lift and a lift able capable of handing the weight of the battery. Two techs are efficient.
Hyundais battery warranty is 100K miles or 10 years so the EV owner won't need to address any battery issues before then.
These EV batteries are nothing like 12V lead acid batteries. I've spoken to several people who apparently assume the traction battery is one giant battery lump. That there aren't any sub-assemblies within the battery case.
With a 12V lead-acid battery you replace it as a whole and recycle it. An EV traction battery has many parts inside and a good technician can disassemble the battery and replace either modules or cells enabling the battery to be returned for many more years of service.
Interesting things are happening in the after market. With the earliest Leafs wearing out their batteries, people are learning to rebuild those traction batteries with new and different battery modules. ALL the Leaf batteries are interchangeable. A brand new 62 KWH battery can be retrofitted into the earliest Leaf that had the 24 KWH battery. It requires a translation module supplied by the after market to be installed. Neither difficult nor (compared to the price of a new EV) expensive. With the lower power motors in the older cars, a very efficient Leaf with 275+ miles of range is the result. Other solutions include CATL battery modules in place of the Nissan modules. I've even traded messages with a fellow who is looking to retrofit a new battery that includes a cooling system enabling the Leaf to overcome its passive battery cooling problem. There is someone in Europe that has a CCS retrofit system.
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Or... a 2-year old Chevy Bolt with less then 20k miles on it - the two vehicles selling for above 20k qualify for additional $4k used EV credit (I strong suspect the $19,991 and $19,999 as the $4k used EV credit applies to any 2-year vehicle $25k or less).
Can you honestly say that a brand new $22k bare bones Toyota Corolla is worth the new vehicle premium (of about $2k extra) over a Chevy Bolt with 2000 miles on it? If I need the range of a combustion/hybrid... and had a budget of $22k I wouldn't be buying a brand new Toyota Corolla in this day and age.
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I think in this case people are concerned with specific improvements will directly and dramatically impact the usefulness of a BEV. Things like improved range, quicker charging, more durable batteries for better battery health long term. All things that can make a major difference to the usefulness of a BEV. A lot more than just a little bit more efficient ICE or some new convivence feature would matter. Solid batteries or semi-solid electrolytes, Lithium Air batteries. There are lots of could be here soon (TM) and could make a big impact battery techs out there. I think this also makes a good case for a used BEV it it fits your need.
Yeah. I haven't had to put the ICE on a battery tender yet but it's definitely something I'm keeping an eye on. We've been driving it just enough to not let the starter battery die so far but some of that is just to drive it periodically. I've also been putting in $15 typically instead of filling it up due to the low mileage we are putting on it.
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None of the cars on this list really do it for me - I was thinking about a Model 3 a few years back, but then Elon went full Elon and I'm not touching a Tesla with a pole of any length.
My current plan is to buy a used i3 at the end of the year. 2020 low mileage examples are fairly plentiful in my area from the low $20s, and the range would cover 100% of my driving excepting driving to LA every few months - for that I'll rent or drive my convertible.
I don't particularly like how they look, but for the price/range and my use case (We put less than 5K a year on each of our 2 cars - working from home FTW, and I just installed a 240 30A circuit in the garage) they are basically perfect. The only unfortunate thing is that they all have the range extender, which kinda seems like a bad idea and I don't really want that option but beggars, choosers and all that.
My current plan is to buy a used i3 at the end of the year. 2020 low mileage examples are fairly plentiful in my area from the low $20s, and the range would cover 100% of my driving excepting driving to LA every few months - for that I'll rent or drive my convertible.
I don't particularly like how they look, but for the price/range and my use case (We put less than 5K a year on each of our 2 cars - working from home FTW, and I just installed a 240 30A circuit in the garage) they are basically perfect. The only unfortunate thing is that they all have the range extender, which kinda seems like a bad idea and I don't really want that option but beggars, choosers and all that.
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Low mileage used Kona? Leaf? Bolt? Our 30K mile Kona was ~$20K. You could go for the lower trim packages and save even more money.
I don't see your dilemma? Perfectly fine cars all of them.
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The Leaf is a fine car if charged L1/L2. Too many L3 charges and it will take a toll. That said, my employer has several Leafs and none of them are having serious battery degradation problems. Also 80%-20% rule is important and Nissan removed the automatic charging limits. That was short sighted. What we do is plug them after use and set a timer so they charge in the early morning so that when they are needed, the charging is just reaching 80%.
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The Bolt 1LT is $19,995 MSRP after rebate and you want me to spend $24,500 on a Corolla Hybrid?!? You rich people and your >$20k cars
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Your logic is disjointed.
You generally lease for two reasons. 1) to control depreciation, and 2) to reduce the financed amount.
There is also the fact that you can play with rebates to get much lower payments for 2-3 year ownership.
First it helps to understand the basics of a lease. For the sake of clarity and brevity I'll skip over things like milage and condition penalties and just pretend that you keep in mileage.
- The dealer sets a car sales price
- The leasing company sets a car buy price (the residual) based on their estimation of used-sale value
So if you buy a car for $30k and the leasing company offers you $20k in 2 years; you have to pay them $10k an in exchange you get to drive their car for 2 years.
But what if the government is giving you $7500 when you buy or lease that car? Well... then you get $7500. If you use that for the lease payment, you only have to come up with the remaining $2500.
Most people take out a loan to pay the leasing company for the lease.
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Used cars serve this purpose. Always have. There are VERY nice used cars with 30K miles on them if you look a bit.
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Thanks. Surprised the credit was mentioned on some vehicles but not others.I believe the Model 3 RWD and Long Range AWD are no longer eligible because they now use Lithium-Iron-phosphate batteries from China.
The Model 3 Performance and all flavors of Model Y use Lithium-Ion packs and are eligible for $7500.
Federal Tax Credits for Plug-in Electric and Fuel Cell Electric Vehicles Purchased in 2023 or After
Save up to $7,500 on qualifying vehicles!fueleconomy.gov
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