Ahead of the 10th edition of the Music Week Women In Music Awards, co-founders Alison Wenham and Lara Baker have a clear message for the music industry. Here, in celebration of everything the pair have done to help change the landscape for women across the business, we meet them to discuss empowerment, industry politics and progress, not to mention this year's edition of the big event, which takes place at London's JW Marriott Grosvenor House on Friday, October 11...
WORDS: ANNA FIELDING
PHOTOS: LOUISE HAYWOOD-SCHIEFER
“It’s not about being a trooper,” says Alison Wenham, about the Music Week Women In Music Awards. “Absolutely not about being a trooper. That’s often where you find women in male-dominated environments. They are the go-tos, the I-couldn’t-do-it-withouts. They are the people that keep the lights on. But when it came to recognising the vital importance of those people, there was an absence.”
The Music Week Women In Music Awards, which Wenham co-founded alongside Lara Baker, are now in their 10th year and, over that decade, have celebrated and spotlighted women and non-binary people from across the industry.
Baker, UK general manager of Fuga, has come to meet Wenham in the East London offices of Blue Raincoat Music and Chrysalis, where Wenham is the chief operating officer.
“For me it is about that spotlight,” says Baker. “It’s about celebrating women who are doing amazing things, but who may not be doing them in particularly public-facing or visible roles. And it’s also for the younger generation. It’s about showing them that women can be fantastic CEOs, songwriters, entrepreneurs, publishers and more.”
On the morning we meet, the pair have been eating croissants, looking at pictures of the clothing Wenham’s daughter, an embroidery specialist, has worked on for Cardi B and Cate Blanchett, and discussing Baker’s upcoming trip to Canada. They have known one another for almost 20 years, meeting when Baker took her first job in the industry at the Association of Independent Music (AIM) where Wenham was a co-founder. They are catching up and it is fitting that an awards ceremony dedicated to supporting women came from a relationship based on strong professional respect and friendship. The Women In Music Awards grew out of their mutual certainty that the industry needed to change.
“At AIM we were running an organisation which was very open, very diverse in its structure and had a unique board structure that was accessible to women,” says Wenham. “And yet women were not present. They didn’t see themselves in those roles. So despite the fact that we had loads of brilliant women around us, when it came to being in the spotlight, there was almost a complete veto on the idea.”
The two had run various panels and workshops on being a woman in the music industry, a phrase that Baker says now feels dated “but it was probably a necessary step we had to take”. They had also taken a group of industry women to the pub and got them to talk about the issues, imposter syndrome and the idea that quiet good work is not often rewarded. Slowly, the idea for the Women In Music Awards began to germinate.
“Now we can say it’s been a runaway success,” enthuses Wenham. “Especially when you consider how tentative we were in the beginning and how concerned we were about the reaction and possibly rejection of something with such a specific focus. And yet we didn’t see any other way.”
“Initially, we had to work quite hard to get people to come along, to pay attention to the awards and to care about them,” says Baker. “We didn’t expect it to get this big and I think it’s amazing to see how many women we’ve recognised and how many people come to the event, including men. It’s really important to have them in the room seeing all the wonderful things that women are doing.”
“And this year it’s at the Grosvenor, which is an enormous venue,” says Wenham. “For me, that has broken a taboo. The reason I’m so in awe of it being at the Grosvenor is because I’ve been in the industry a long, long time. My husband was in the industry as well and we frequently went to the Grosvenor for awards and conferences and the like. And I was successful, a managing director at the time, but at those events I always felt very much like a wifey, like a plus one. I’ve been to a ton of those events and never felt like part of the industry. I was on the BPI council but felt like a stranger at my own party. Starting the Women Music Awards was a catalyst. It held up a mirror to what was plain to see but which nobody really wanted to acknowledge or tackle. So this year's venue shows me how far we’ve come.”
“A lot of the focus we have when it comes to diversity and inclusivity can be quite negative, but this isn’t,” adds Baker. “The stats are bad when it comes to the gender pay gap and so on. But we’re doing the opposite. It’s a celebration. People say to us that it’s their favourite awards ceremony because it’s full of love and joy. The room is full of celebration.”
The event's anniversary, then, is a perfect opportunity for Baker and Wenham to sit and reflect on the past decade of the awards show and the industry around it. Here, Music Week joins the conversation...
Going right back to the start, what were the first practical steps of setting up the Women In Music Awards?
Alison Wenham: “We knew we needed partners. At AIM we represented a particular sector, that of independent music. And if we were going to launch a 'women in music' event of any kind, we needed a bigger footprint than our own for it to resonate across the industry. So we went to UK Music and asked if they would like to be a partner. And we went to Music Week and asked if perhaps they would like to be an event partner. The vision that we have always had is what is still being delivered.”
Lara Baker: “I arrived in the sector with a female boss and a board where people were rotated off every five years.”
AW: “And in 2004, that board was all nice, lovely men, white and middle class. No women were putting themselves forward and we started to think that there was something very rotten here.”
LB: “We did the Women In Music conference for probably more than 10 years. We started that because it was difficult to get equal line-ups at our conferences. We did public speaking training sessions for women. I would organise the sessions and Alison would lead them, which she still does, she’s an amazing public speaker. We were doing quite a few things within AIM, but we wanted to do something that encompassed the whole business, not just independents.”
AW: “We were very concerned that we would get a pat on the head and be thanked for taking care of the issue. My main concern was whether we would insulate the problem and take it away from the main stage.”
And how do you think that has played out?
AW: “There were a lot of issues around gender representation, around representation of all kinds, within the industry. But in the 10 years since the awards have launched there are innumerable organisations dedicated to powering up, to addressing diversity... There’s a whole movement across this industry, and I hope other industries too, that I am really happy to see take root and take shape. We never wanted to own this space, we just wanted to put our house in order. Now, representation and diversity have become so core to policy across the industry and so much good has come out of it. You've got proper recognition of the differences that women bring to a business, but also the different challenges that women face within the workplace. The government has also intervened here. There are now requirements around pay, pay gaps, maternity rights, paternity rights… We’re not claiming any of this, there’s been a sea change. But I think that, in some small way, The Women In Music Awards has made a contribution by holding a mirror up to the industry and I think that’s incredibly positive.”
LB: “For quite a few years, events, festivals, awards, ceremonies, conferences, would get quite shamed publicly for having poor diversity. That is happening less now because people have learned from the shaming and internalised the lessons. There’s been so much improvement, it just doesn’t come up.”
Do you think full equality has been achieved?
LB: “No, we’re not there yet.”
AW: “It’s an interesting one, isn’t it? I’d love to see some sort of benchmarking study where we could compare with other industries. A lot of companies in music have done a great job of implementing policies and packages that are very diverse and inclusive. So whether it's enhanced maternity and equal paternity or having childcare support, policies around menopause, transitioning… Some companies are just doing brilliantly on that front, and other companies in music are really far behind. But I think talent will vote with their feet and they will go and work for companies that are focusing on these things because they matter. You have to see it as a competitive advantage.”
When you are actually in the room at the event, how does it feel to watch everything you’ve planned for take place?
AW: “I’m on tenterhooks all evening, and can't relax at all. I want it to be perfect.”
LB: “I’m like that at other events, and the AIM Awards are super weird for me now, having started it and run it for the first 10 years. But I’m not like that at the Women In Music Awards. I tend to soak it all up, it’s the nicest atmosphere, almost like a wedding and so many people to catch up with. I cry, every single year, at some point. And it’s lovely that it still connects us because we don’t work together any more, we’ve gone down separate paths, so it’s really nice to still do this together.”
What have been your most memorable moments over the years?
AW: “I know what she’s going to say…”
LB: “We both think the same. It was having Melanie C on for the Inspirational Artist Award [in 2022] with Self Esteem presenting and Self Esteem running up to the stage when Spice Up Your Life was on. I think every single person was screaming the words.”
AW: “Melanie C was leading a sing-along, that was sensational. Last year, there was the Sinéad O'Connor tribute. I watched it again recently and again I was in floods of tears. She had died so suddenly, the previous July, and Roisin, her daughter, brought the whole room to tears. The video tribute with all the quotes we’d gathered together, everybody from Chuck D, to Russell Crowe, to the President of Ireland, Bono, Tori Amos... Such beautiful things said about a woman who was so brave and individual.”
LB: “I was also really moved when we recognised Kanya King [in 2016]. She was used to being behind the scenes at awards, giving them to other people.”
AW: “Kanya said, on the stage, that this was the first time in her long career that she’d ever been recognised for anything.”
Everyone always talks about the atmosphere in the room at the Women In Music Awards, but how would you sum it up for people who haven’t attended?
LB: “It’s such a warm, inclusive, celebratory day. It's not competitive. It's about telling stories and also about how different those stories are. It's important for us, the intersectionality and the representation at the event. It’s young and old, very ethnically inclusive, people of different sectors, people who've taken different paths.”
AW: “It’s inspiring and empowering, too. It does give you a sense that you can climb that mountain because others around you have.”
LB: “It’s a support network, too. Even though you might not not know a lot of people in the room, it feels like you’re all there to support each other.”
What impact do you think getting a Women In Music Award can have on the winners?
AW: “There’s a slight overtone of ‘finally’. Because [some of] these women have been working at very senior levels without recognition from their peers within the industry. Grateful is not the right word, but there’s an acknowledgement that we’ve picked them out and put them on stage for others to see.”
LB: “It’s a lovely moment for them and they often bring their families as well – it joins the dots between their work lives and their home lives and their personal lives.”
AW: “You do get the sense during some of the speeches of these sacrifices that these women and their families have made to support a career. The antisocial hours, long work trips, overseas trips, so bringing the family along is almost to recognise that the whole family unit has contributed to the success.”
Do you find there are more entries for the awards now?
AW: “The mailbag has grown and grown and grown over the years.”
LB: “It is a mix of women putting themselves forward, and people putting forward women that they work with or that they admire, and a lot of time goes into collecting testimonials and data to support the nominations. It's something that people take really seriously.”
It must give you an amazing overview of what’s happening in the industry...
LB: “It amazes me, as there are so many entries that I'll read that are women who've been in the industry for years, doing incredible things, and I don't know them, I’ve not met them. I read these phenomenal stories, and I'll be like, ‘Wow, she's amazing. How have I never met her?’”
Do you think workplace culture has changed in the last 10 years?
AW: “There has been a sea change in how women see themselves in the industry, and their expectations of the industry and their role within it. Because when I joined this industry in the ’70s, the women's role was very much defined as, you were in PR, you were a secretary, you were artist relations and that really was the sum total of women within the workforce.”
LB: “I think that the younger generations coming into the industry and attending the event for the first time have a completely different perception of what's possible in terms of their career trajectory to what I had 20 years ago, what Alison had 40 years ago. The awards are not the only factor in that, but they're part of the many initiatives and networks that exist now to make sure that women can be what they want to be. Has the culture changed? The answer might be yes, but not enough.”
AW: “It’s a journey. I think workplace culture is defined by the person that runs that company: the tone, the effort that goes into creating safe spaces, everybody feeling secure, comes from the top. So I think it's varied across the industry. I think there still are some male outposts that when asked about diversity, will probably say that they prefer a meritocracy.”
LB: “To stray towards somewhat more negative territory for a moment, there are still men in the music industry who are bullies, harassers, sexual abusers, and they're still working, and there's still NDAs, still a culture of silence. It seemed with #MeToo a few years ago that it might all be blown open, but it's still a problem and I'd love to see that change. Something else I worry about is ageism in the industry. It’s very youth-focused, obsessed with youth and I wonder as a woman in the music industry if there'll still be roles for me. And you know, we're doing a great job of bringing in lots of women at the younger ages, lower levels and things. But are there still jobs for them when they're 60?”
AW: “As an older woman in the industry, I entirely agree with you, and I feel about as token and isolated as I did when I first started. There are very few women my age still in the industry, maybe because they've retired, but more likely they fell away at some point because their careers weren't progressing, or they didn't feel valued, or they weren't getting paid enough.”
What can men in the business do to be part of the solution?
AW: “A man at a women’s event once said something very honest to me. He acknowledged straight away that there was a massive gender imbalance, and then he said, ‘But we didn't deliberately set out to do that.’ And I found that really very insightful, because I don't think any group of men sat down and said, ‘You know what? We're going to keep all those women over there in the corner, and we're going to work them to death, but we're never going to recognise them or honour them.’ I don't think anybody ever set out to exclude vast numbers, but that's what happened. It was just obliviousness. No one was paying attention to the finer sides of running a business. And then it became self-affirmatory.”
LB: “None of the awards or initiatives around women in music or wider diversity, none of them are any kind of attack on men. We want men's involvement. We want them part of the conversation. I would say to them, don't be afraid of having these difficult conversations and acknowledging what's come before and what needs to change.”
Can you share any advice for young women who want to make it in the music industry?
LB: “I think you can look to the women we celebrate at this event for inspiration. There are so many women now at senior levels who've been doing things for a while that are an incredible inspiration. But also, for me, thinking back, the most impactful thing for me was my peer network. My advice is really to focus on that because as my career has gone on, those other women who started out the same time as me have been able to provide support for me, career opportunities, pep talks.”
What do you think the legacy of the Women in Music Awards should be?
LB: “For me, it's going back to that first point of it being a spotlight on the many women who are doing incredible work and always have been without a spotlight. And it's about putting that light on them and celebrating them, and it's about the collective power of bringing together so many women.”
AW: “I’m super proud of the awards, and so I hope that long may they remain and give joy to people and provide a great day out.”
