December 24, 2024 • 37 mins
Clay invites our awesome Old City Jerusalem tour guide on the show to talk about the Holy Land.
Follow Clay & Buck on YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/c/clayandbuck
See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
This special edition Christmas Eve Show is brought to you
by the International Fellowship of Christians and Jews. Welcome and
thanks for joining us for a special Christmas Eve edition
of Clay and Buck. Welcome in. We are taping a
very special edition of Clay and Buck. It is the
Christmas Eve Edition. I am in Israel right now. First
(00:21):
of all, Merry Christmas to all of you. I hope
you were having fabulous times with your friends and your family.
But I also know that a lot of you work
even on Christmas Eve, and so we wanted to make
sure that we had a special, original Christmas Eve edition
of the show, and we thought nothing better than to
(00:41):
do it from Israel, given that it is in fact
the Holy Land, and in particular, one of the first
things we did when we got to Israel was we
had a tour of the Old City of Jerusalem. That's
right in the center of Jerusalem. I know many of
you would love to go and visit at some point
in time, and if you have visited, then you will
(01:03):
understand maybe a little bit of what we're talking about.
But we had a fabulous guide her name and she
is sitting with me here right now, Yaelle Goodman. She
took us all over the Old City of Jerusalem for
several hours, and we had such a great time that
we said, hey, what if we brought Yell on and
we asked her all sorts of questions so all of
(01:24):
you could understand the incredible knowledge and stories she had
to tell, so we could bring it to all of you.
So we bring in Yell Goodman first, and I'll get
into her background, but first, just for the bonafides, how
much work does it take to become a licensed tour
guide in Jerusalem? How does that come about? And how
(01:47):
did you come to have the job that you have
where you ended up with me and Ali and Andrew
our crew taking us around in the center of the
Old City of Jerusalem. How does that job exist? And
kind of give some sense of that if you could to.
Speaker 2 (02:01):
Start, well, the tour guide course in Israel, it's a
rigorous course. It's a two year course. And in this
two year course you need to learn archaeology and history
and geology and everything it takes to just guide people
along all of Israel, not only Jerusalem. So it includes
six hundred hours academic hours and eighty tours. Eighty tours
(02:22):
where you tour all over Israel. From those eighty tours,
fourteen days are dedicated to Jerusalem. So basically what we
did in our three hour tour in Jerusalem was like
a condensed you know, fourteen days of what you study
the tour guide course in like three hours.
Speaker 1 (02:39):
So there's so much to get into. But I couldn't
stop thinking about how close, regardless of what your religious
faith is, the holy sites for Christians, Jews, and Muslims
all are in the centrality of the Old City of Jerusalem.
For people who have not been before, the Western Wall,
(03:03):
the Sension I Guess of Muhammad for Muslims, and then
the Church of the Holy Separkle, the location of Jesus
christ crucifixion. All of these are within a short little
walking I mean you could almost since we got a
lot of football fans out there, you could almost basically
throw a football from one holy site to another holy
(03:27):
site of all three religions for people who have not
been Let's start with the Jewish faith. What is central
when you're going around on these tours for people who
have not been there before, what stands out that you
think they should know about? The sites that are important
to people of Jewish faith.
Speaker 2 (03:47):
So I think for Jews, the most important site is
the Western Wall, but the Western Raw is a relic
of what the temple use.
Speaker 1 (03:54):
What is the Western Walk. So a lot of people
have heard of that, and if they're not Jewish, they
may not know exactly what it is. What is the
Western Wall? You've seen many people have seen the pictures,
but kind of take us into why it's historically relevant.
Speaker 2 (04:06):
So the Western Rale is basically a wall of the
fortress that was built around Temple Mount. Okay, let's go
back a little bit. Temple Mount is the mountain that
the temple was on top of it. That's why it's
called Temple Mount. Yes, I'm using my hands as if
people can see me, because exactly so, when you go
back to the source of Judaism, you go back to
(04:29):
that formative moment where Abraham was asked by God to
take his loved son Isaac and to bind him and
to almost sacrifice him. That that takes place on Mount Mariah,
which on top of that mountain the first temple was built.
So that is a focal point that goes back four
thousand years. King David chose Jerusalem as the capital and
his son King Solomon builds the first Temple on that
(04:51):
same location where Abraham almost sacrificed Isaac, and so the
first temple was built over there. That temple is destroyed
by the Babylonians and rebuilt again.
Speaker 1 (04:59):
That first ti would have been built. How many thousands
of years ago? Roughly, I'm not expecting you to know
the exact year, but we're talking about like twenty five
hundred twenty seven hundre years.
Speaker 2 (05:09):
We're talking. We're talking three thousand years ago. Yep, we're
talking one thousand years BCE. Yes, okay, roughly.
Speaker 1 (05:16):
So the first temple is built.
Speaker 2 (05:18):
The first temple is built, the first Temple is destroyed.
The people, the Israelites living in the area, the rebel
against the Babylonians, and the Babylonians come, they destroyed the
first Temple. We're talking about five eighty six BCE or BC.
We use before Common Era, before Christ.
Speaker 1 (05:34):
We can do Christ exactly.
Speaker 2 (05:35):
So let's go for BC exactly. And the Jews are
exiled to Babylon and they come back. Not all of
them come back. A lot of them stay in Babylon,
which becomes a thriving Jewish community. It's the first Jewish diaspora,
but the people come back build the Second Temple, and
that Second Temple was renovated by King Herod. King Herod
was an appointee of the Romans to come and control
(05:56):
in Israel because just open brackets. And this also will
eventually connected the story of Jesus, the geopolitics around Jesus,
because you know, everything is about politics in the end,
and the geography that you're in and what decisions different
leaders and rulers needed to make in the context of
the time. So Herod comes to rule because the Romans
understand that there's a unique group of people that lives
(06:17):
in the province of Judea, which is what they called
Israel at the time. They're monotheistic. They believe in one God,
which was absurd if you think about it two thousand
years ago, where everyone was idle worshippers and.
Speaker 1 (06:26):
They believed of multiple gods, exactly multiple gods.
Speaker 2 (06:32):
And so the Romans knew that if there would be
direct Roman rule, there would be uprising in the province
of Judea and there'll be friction between the Jews and
this direct Roman ruler, and so they needed someone from
their own so they choose King Herod, who's also a
Jew and who also was raised in Rome, so he
can also understand the Jewish traditions and not have any
(06:54):
friction with the Jews. But also, you know, do what
Rome does, build a Roman city, a car, a theater,
all the things that the Romans wanted to see in
order to spread their Roman culture. So Herod comes, he
sees this temple and he's like, thinking Roman style, Roman architecture.
He's like, what do you mean this isn't a temple.
So he shows them what a temple is. So basically,
(07:16):
if you can use this imagery, there's a mountain. It's
like he takes a shoe box, a rectangular shaped shoe box,
and dresses it over the mountain. That is the platform
upon which the temple was built. If you fly on
a helicopter, it's as big as twelve soccer field. Speaking
of sports analogies, it's a massive area because it's a
venue where quarter of a million Jews are coming three
(07:40):
times a year to worship, and so he made it.
So what is the Western Wall? Back to your original question,
I think when we were together in the Old City,
I said, every question you have, it will take me
time to answer, because everything is really complicated and complex
with the answers. And so the Western Wall basically is
a tiny little part of that massive fortification that was
built around Temple Mount and this is what's exposed of it,
(08:03):
and it's closest to where the Holy of Holies was.
Speaker 1 (08:06):
And this would be the Western Wall how many thousands
of years ago?
Speaker 2 (08:10):
Two thousand years ago, two thousand years ago.
Speaker 1 (08:13):
It's important because everyone who's listening to us in America
something that's two hundred years old, people say, oh, my goodness,
can you believe that's so old. We're talking about two
thousand year old.
Speaker 2 (08:24):
Wall, two thousand year old wall, which probably Jesus came
to visit when he came to Jerusalem. This is the wall.
People went to the wall after the Second Tible was destroyed.
If you were a Jew two thousand years ago, you
would go and worship on the temple. And how would
you worship? You had a mediator, You had the priests,
the Kohanim. They would take your sacrifice, sacrifice it for you.
So there was a mediator between man and God and
(08:47):
the holiest place for Jews. For going back to the
Jewish question, is the Holy of Holies is the temple itself, yes,
because only one person can go in once a year,
and that is the High Priest, and he goes in
the day of Atonement, you don't keep poor, and he
goes into the Holy of Holies. But when the Temple
was destroyed, we don't know exactly where the location is.
And according to Jewish tradition, only when the Messiah comes,
(09:07):
he will rebuild the temple. And that's when the dream
of Orthodox Jews. Not all Jews feel this way or
believe in this, but that that's when the Priest will
come back and everything will come back. So until then
we are prohibited as Jews to even go up to
Temple Mount.
Speaker 1 (09:22):
So people as a result come and they worship at
the whaling at the Western War exactly and I almost
said whaling Wall because there is often crying exactly associated
with it.
Speaker 2 (09:33):
Right, you go to the wall. You know, every Jew
I know has grandparents who dreamt to come to Jerusalem.
And you go to the wall, and there's just that moment,
even it doesn't matter how you feel or how religious
you are, it's just kind of like a moment and
it's a wall, right, you're there, It's just a wall,
but it brings out so much emotion because the amount
of energy and prayer that was brought into that wall.
(09:54):
You literally feel.
Speaker 1 (09:55):
It, and so a lot of people put notes. People
may have seen or heard about this. It's separated. I
didn't know. Women have one entrance, men have another. You're
not side by side. But anyone can approach the wall,
regardless of what their religious or ethnicity might be.
Speaker 2 (10:12):
Absolutely anyone can go to the wall, anyone, any religious,
any ethnicity. Yes, there is a separation between men and
women because it's controlled by the Israeli Rabbinical Authority and
over there it's a separation between men and women. But
I find in my experience of everyone that I guided,
the Western Wall is really what moves people the most.
Speaker 1 (10:33):
Yes, it was. It was incredibly profound. All right. When
we come back, I'm going to ask you about Christian
holy sites in the Old Center of Jerusalem, also Muslim
holy sites. We'll get into that because I think it's
super fascinating, in particular the Church of the Holy Sepulcher,
which is not easy to pronounce, but what exactly is
(10:55):
in there, and we will discuss that on this special
Christmas Eve. Addition of Clay and Buck. Okay, we're here
on the Christmas Eve edition. We hope all of you
are having fabulous Christmas Eves across the country and around
the world as listening to us. We are taping this
in Israel in December. Many of you know that I
(11:15):
made a trip along with a couple of members of
our show cast behind the scenes to Israel. We had
an incredible guest who took us all around the center
of Old Jerusalem. Her name is Yeal Goodman. When I
went to break, I was saying, I wanted you to
tell me about the Church of the Holy Sepulcher and
(11:35):
why it is a integral part of the Christian faith.
But I hadn't really thought about this before. Maybe I
should have. Based on how old the city is, there
is a constant interplay between maybe what the religious story
is and what the historic story is. And before we
(11:55):
even get to that, you can walk through the old
city of Jerusalem. I'm the siner here and there is
a pathway that they say is likely to have been
what Jesus walked on his way to being crucified. Based
on your study, how accurate do you think that pathway is?
And I want everybody to understand out there, we're talking
(12:16):
about Jesus as a historic figure right now, for that
pathway someone who was crucified, that you could follow the
history here was really kind of staggering to me. When
Christians come and you give them tours, what do they
ask about it? How accurate do you think that pathway
is for what Jesus may have walked when he was
(12:37):
being crucified.
Speaker 2 (12:39):
Well, it's a tough question to answer, only because I'm
thinking about the Christians out there who are listening to me. Yeah,
on Christmas, on Christmas Eve exactly, So no pressure. Firstly,
I'll say that a path that has been walked for
over a thousand years, that's where the sanctity is, doesn't
really matter if it happened or not, because you're right,
(13:00):
there is a question. We have the religion and we
have the facts and the history in the archaeology. Sometimes
they don't mesh together, not for Jews, not for Christians,
not for Muslims. So you know, as a guide in
Jerusalem who guides different demographics, some more religious, some less religious,
I try to really be sensitive to the audience with
my answer. What I can tell you most likely do
(13:21):
I know for sure.
Speaker 1 (13:22):
No, I mean because it's that kind of staggering though,
sorry to cut you off, but the fact that something
that is so iconic and embedded in common thought, it
was really kind of staggering to me to think, we
know that there had to be a pathway, right, and
it's rare that there is something that is this old. Again,
I think this is important every one of the United States.
(13:44):
If a building is two hundred years old, you were like,
this is so old, can you believe we still have this.
We met a guy whose family has lived in the
same house in the center of Jerusalem for eight hundred years.
I mean the same house for eight hundred years. I mean,
you know, I always think it's funny when you go
to England or something and there are bars, literal pubs
(14:05):
that are older than the United States of America. They've
been serving beer there longer than our country has existed.
So my point on this is, as we're walking through
the old city of Jerusalem, the idea that you could
be on the same sort of pathway in any way,
or you said earlier that Jesus himself could have walked
(14:25):
down to the Western Wall, it would have been there
when he was there, I think is really eye opening
for many people. So the idea that there is this
pathway and that it's right there and you can even see,
I mean, I know for many Christians these are the
steps that Jesus would have walked. It's marked, you said,
for a thousand years people have been trying to figure
(14:48):
this out. And we'll get into the Church of the
Holy Sepulcher here in a moment, But that is the
idea of that church is that it's built right on
top of where they would have crucified everyone, and that's
where the walk ends exactly.
Speaker 2 (15:00):
So the fourteen Stations of the Cross basically start in
the place that was believed a Pontius pilot came to
Jerusalem and that's where he sentenced Jesus to death. Yes,
totally makes sense because Herod built that building beforehand, and
every building that Herod built, the Roman governors would come
after him would live in those facilities because they were good,
they were big, they were fancy.
Speaker 1 (15:18):
Because you're looking at the historic record and considering the
biblical record and trying to figure out how do we
determine the likely elements here, and it is as all
archaeology is oftentimes a best guest scenario, because the records
are only as good as the.
Speaker 2 (15:33):
Records are exactly, and you have to like cross reference,
and you have to cross reference with archaeology and with
history and with a bunch of other stuff. So basically,
roughly the Fourteen Stations probably could be that path because
it does go from point A for a Pontius pilot
sentences Jesus to death, and to point B, which is
the Church of the Holy Sepulcher, and somewhere along the
way is the path that he won.
Speaker 1 (15:52):
And there's only so many ways to go for that.
I mean, that's a relatively small distance, right for people
who have not been to Jerusalem.
Speaker 2 (15:59):
Exactly, And we know that topography doesn't change. The streets,
the alleys, the homes, they may change, but the topography
doesn't change.
Speaker 1 (16:06):
In other words, if you've got to go uphill to
get something, there's only so many ways to.
Speaker 2 (16:10):
Go up that head exactly. So we went uphill or
for example, the walls of Jerusalem. Jerusalem was a Jewish
city in the time that Jesus was executed. It was
controlled by the Romans politically, but religiously. It was a
Jewish city, so anything that had to do with the
death had to be done outside the city, and so
we were touring Jerusalem and the walls of the Ottoman
period of fifteen thirty nine. We remember when I stopped
in that place and I said, right now, we're exiting
(16:30):
the city in the time of Jesus. So at some
point Jesus walks outside the city in order to go
to the Golgotha, to the cavalry, which was outside of
the city. And it's very deceiving because today we're in
the city right the Church of the Holy Supplicker is
in the center of Jerusalem, but we need to imagine
it that it was outside of Jerusalem. And so we
get to the cavalry, which was kind of like the Golgoltha.
In Aramaic, Golgolet is a skull. So when people come
(16:52):
to this hill they see like a hill that looks
like a skull, which is associated with execution. This is
probably the place where they executed everyone, and right by
this side that they revealed. Archaeologically speaking, Second Temple burial,
it's a specific style that that's exactly how Jesus would
have buried two thousand years ago. We have style of
burials that change. First temple burial is different than second
Temple burial. And we saw we went into that place
(17:15):
in the Church of the Holy Sepulcher and we saw
the caves where you can place the body, roll the
stone over and read the scriptures and really see that
it was there.
Speaker 1 (17:21):
I want to come back to that moment. I'm going
to go into the church there in Jerusalem. We'll talk
about that. We'll also talk it is the Christmas Eve edition.
We'll talk about what exactly that church represents. I hope
many of you are enjoying this as much as we did.
I know you are. We'll be back and we'll talk
about that Church of the Holy Sepulcher in Jerusalem in
the next segment. Welcome back in special Christmas Eve edition
(17:46):
of The Clay Travis and Buck Sexton Show. I am
Clay Travis Live right now. As we are taping in Israel,
we wanted to do Our producer Ali said, hey, we
should do a special Christmas Eve edition focused on the
fact that we're in Israel and it is christ No pressure, yeall, goodman,
who if you were just getting in your cars or
you're just starting to listen, was our tour guide for
(18:07):
the historic center of the Old Jerusalem City that we
took a tour with. We loved it and we said
we want you to come talk to our audience. Okay.
When we left, we were talking about the walk with
Jesus on the crucifixion and the fact that he ends
up at this place called Golgotha, which is the skull
like location. There is now a church there and will
(18:29):
work our way towards it. The idea that they have
in the church is that they have pinpointed the location
of the of the cross and then of where Jesus
dies inside of that during that crucifixion. Okay, And the
church is fascinating because there are multiple different orthodoxies, different
(18:54):
denominations basically that have different aspects of the church. Never
I've been in a lot of cathedrals, I've been in
a lot of churches in my life. I've never seen
one that has this many different orthodoxies this minute, this
many different methods that they're celebrating with. So let me
start with this. What are the different groups that are
(19:15):
represented inside of this church? And let me clarify for
people out there listening, this is like you have a
Catholic Church with a Baptist Church, with a with a
Seventh day Adventist Church, all these different denominations all rolled
into one. I've never seen anything like this. What are
(19:36):
the denominations and how in the world did this come
to be?
Speaker 2 (19:41):
Well that we have five different denominations in the Church
of the Holy Sepulcher from three different continents. So it's insane. Yes,
you know, when I try to explain this to a
Jewish audience, I say, it's kind of like putting reform
Orthodox Conservatives and like Iraqi and Yema night Jews all
in one. Senegomay you never get along. Kind of like
what you said right now.
Speaker 1 (20:00):
I mean the idea of having Catholics and Baptists in
the same building and each of them controlling a different
portion of the building is a way I think of
kind of illustrating that, right, absolutely, So I set you off.
But so what does it look like?
Speaker 2 (20:13):
So what it looks like? Well, we have the Greek Orthodox,
uh huh. We have the Franciscans, who are the arm
of the Catholic the Pope. We have the Armenians, they
have a very big territory over there. The Coptics, which
are the Egyptian with the Egyptians and the Syrianic Orthodox,
which we were lucky to visit their church, the Aramaic
(20:35):
speaking Syrianic Church where they have that small room. Yes,
so every denomination according to the power that they had
at the time, how much real estate they have in
the church, what times of prayer they have, They're all
very much divided in how they pray. Now this is
also a unique example. How you have a Western church,
the Franciscans, okay, the Catholic Church together with all these
(20:56):
all the rest of our Eastern churches, so you have
like one Catholic and then the other Eastern churches. But also,
and I think we talked to this a lot about
on our tour, how like it's much harder to get
along within your family as opposed to outside. So like
Jews and Muslims and Christians kind of get along in
the old city, but like what happens inside that church,
So how they get along basically is something that the
(21:18):
Ottoman Empire decided in the middle of the nineteenth century.
It's called the status quo. They just realized they were
all fighting between them, between the churches, who has it
and this all started in the Church of Nativity in Bethlehem. Okay,
someone stole the star of that indicated where Jesus was born,
and a big war started from that war. Now, if
(21:41):
you zoom out, a lot of wars started because of religion.
You blame religion for a lot of wars, but really
it's a lot of undertow that went on years and
years beforehand, and that religious reason is kind of like
the match that sparks the war. But regardless, the Ottoman said, okay,
we can't do this anymore. We're going to go to
every church in the Holy Land in Israel, and we're
(22:03):
going to see where every denomination prays right now, So like,
for example, your Armenian, this is your area, this is
your time of prayer. This is where you have to clean.
And cleaning is an honor in the Church of the
Holy Supplicer. People don't fight who doesn't clean, people want
to clean it. And the Greek Orthodox and so kind
of like deciding what hours and what time and everything
that they wrote at the time that they wrote it
had to freeze in time. It's called the status quo.
(22:25):
So if you've been to Israel, you know the famous
story of the ladder outside the Church of the Holy
Suppliker that's still there since eighteen fifty six. And even
more crazy is this aluminium ladder between April and May
that they take out and just put it. It's dysfunctional.
People don't climb in it or fix something. It just
stands there because it's written in the Status Quo, which
shows you how things just need to freeze in order
(22:47):
to work. Just like, stop there, you know, you don't
move anymore. This is how it's going to work. And
it does, and it's unbelievable because the Church of the
Holy Supplicker is a microcosm of Jerusalem, the Old City.
So it's kind of like a little area where you
can see where all these different denominations get along, or
I wouldn't say get along, they parallel live, which is huge.
Speaker 1 (23:09):
So inside of this church is they Basically, the Crusaders
came a thousand years after Jesus you can correct me.
I'm this a rough historical record, and they decided they
wanted to build a church on the scene basically of
the Crucifixion.
Speaker 2 (23:28):
Well, the original church was built by Constantine Yea in
three hundred and thirty five.
Speaker 1 (23:33):
Yeah, and then it was destroyed.
Speaker 2 (23:35):
And it was destroyed in the church that we sized Crusader. Yes,
and it's a third of the size of the Byzantine
church that was built by Saint Helen Constantine's mom.
Speaker 1 (23:43):
Which is crazy because it's a big church already, to
think about the size of the church that was built
that far back. Yes, So the initial church is built
three hundred some odd years after the crucifixion, and the
idea is that they have built this church on the
scene of the site of voyag Jeus Jesus was crucified exactly.
Speaker 2 (24:02):
The chronology of archaeology of Christian sites in Israel is
similar in many different sites. The event that took place,
the early Christian community that preserved that place and remembered
where it was, and then think about it, from the
moment that Jesus is crucified until the Byzantine come into
power is three hundred years. That's a long time to
preserve a place. So Saint hell and Constantine Mom, she
(24:26):
comes and looks for those places, and that's where the
churches are built. Those churches are destroyed, unfortunately and rebuilt
by the Crusaders. So a lot of Christian sites in Israel,
this is their story, the event that took place, the
early Christian community that guarded these places, and their memory
from father to son, from father to son, and the
churches that were built afterwards over that, and so we
have a very good indication as to where these churches are,
(24:48):
combined with the archaeology around it.
Speaker 1 (24:50):
Based on what you've seen, do you think that that
church is in the place where the and by the way,
it wasn't just Jesus. There were lots of people being
crucified back in those days, which is important. Do you
think that they built it roughly where the crucifixions were
likely to have occurred?
Speaker 2 (25:04):
Yes, I mean, I don't want to make any Protestants
upset because they have a different location in Jerusalem. It's
called the Garden Tomb. Yes, and so there are two
locations of where the crucifixion and resurrection took place. I listen,
ever since I'm ever, since I'm a little girl. My mother.
You know, my mother's from Oklahoma City. Let's open this up.
(25:25):
My mother's from Oklahoma City. She comes from a Roman
Catholic family, partly Native American. So you know, I'm like,
I have a mess of a background and my grandmother
was a devout Catholic woman and every time she would
come to Jerusalem, my mother would say, sugar Doll, take
her to the church. And like, I just knew one church,
and that was the Church of the Holy Supplicker. So
(25:46):
ever since I'm like seven years old, I walk my
grandma to the Church of the Holy Supplicker and I
see and so I have a very deep connection to
that church as a young Jewish girl in Jerusalem taking
her Catholic grandmother to this church. Yes, in my tour guide,
I realized the necessity of these different communities to have
different locations. You know, religion comes with logistics and you
(26:07):
got to take that under consideration. And the Church the
Garden Tomb is located outside the walls today and they
have their own story and their own area, and I
get it, but I definitely think that the Church of
the Holy Supplicker is the location.
Speaker 1 (26:21):
Okay, So we've talked about the historic sites for Jews
for Christians, also a historic site for Muslims, and I'm
not as familiar with this one. So you took us
and when we come back, we'll discuss that. To kind
of close out this hour about the Holy Land, on
Christmas Eve, Muslims don't allow you to walk into their
(26:45):
holy site. I didn't know this, but I'm going to
have you tell us about that. I will say, I
think this is important. Right now, it's not very crowded
in the Old City of Jerusalem, and you had to
as a tour guide come through COVID when nobody basically
is allowed. And you started running tours at that time,
(27:08):
and you said during our tour, there's very few Americans
over here, as in the wake of October seventh, there's
been very few people coming to Israel on and tourist
strips or anything else. How did our crowd compare to
a usual crowd and a pre COVID era in Jerusalem.
Speaker 2 (27:29):
First of all, I have a lot of appreciation for
people who come at times like this right showing support
and solidarity, And it's very moving for us Israelis, especially
you know, the people who work with foreigners like you
all year and all of a sudden everybody disappeared. Yes,
So I find that you and Ali and the and
(27:50):
Andrew and the people that come over here are super engaged,
really want to be here, highly curious, and and it
just makes makes me want to give as much as
I can, you know, Like like on our tour, I
did a lot more than I planned because I saw
how engaged you were and how you wanted to be here,
and and to me, the old city always feels like
home and safe. I don't know how you felt.
Speaker 1 (28:12):
I felt completely safe, But I understand people out there
are nervous about making trips to Israel. But having been
to Rome, which I loved, I was stunned. And in Florence,
which are swarmed, it's almost impossible to move in some
of those streets. I was stunned by how open it
felt in the Old City of Jerusalem right now, So
(28:37):
I think that's a benefit.
Speaker 2 (28:38):
It is, But like right before COVID, it was you
would you were not able to walk in the Old
City of Jerusalem. We walked so like openly up the
Via de la Rosa, think of like a concert, like
with like shoulder or shoulder tight. That's what it used
to be. Like, Yes, pre COVID, you can barely walk
around Jerusalem was it wasn't even fun to guide anymore.
Going to the Church of the Holy Supplocker, you'd wait
(28:59):
outside in line for ever, and there is no regulation
like there is in Rome to go into the Vatican. Yeah,
everybody comes whenever they want. We're in you know, we're
in the Middle East.
Speaker 1 (29:07):
No, now, when we come back, we'll talk about being
in the Middle East. Jewish, Christian, Muslim, all within a
short distance of each other. It's Christmas Eve. We appreciate
you hanging out with us. Special edition of Clay and
Buck Welcome back in Clay Travis Buck Sexton Show Special
Christmas Eve edition that we are taping in Israel with
our tour guide for the historic center of the Old
(29:29):
City of Jerusalem. Yeah, old goodman. I appreciate her being
with us. You heard that she's got all sorts of
family back in America. But you are born and raised
in Israel, born.
Speaker 2 (29:39):
And raised in Jerusalem, I always say, born, raised in stayed.
Speaker 1 (29:42):
And but you have a lot of family in Oklahoma.
I do, which is maybe not the overlap that people
would anticipate. So they maybe they're listening some of your
family in Oklahoma right now on Christmas Eve. We should
mention there's an amazing midnight Mass in the Church of
the Holy Sufflicker that takes place today as we are
talking to all of you, which is an incredible scene
(30:04):
and I imagine pretty incredible.
Speaker 2 (30:07):
It's incredible. I mean for anyone. You know, we were
talking about the Western Wall, how everybody you want is
drawn to that. A lot of even Israelis go to
this mass Yes, it's special and it there's something about
that church that it just it just very moving.
Speaker 1 (30:24):
I agree. I really really deeply appreciated being able to visit,
and you being our tour guide there. We mentioned that
you can walk in and see that whether you're a
Christian or a Jew. For those two holy sites, not
so for the Muslim site.
Speaker 2 (30:39):
Well, the Muslims. Listen, the Muslims. If you're a Muslim,
you can go up, yeah, to El Aktsa. You know,
when I say Temple Mount, it's a very Jewish way
of referring to Temple Mount because it referred to temple
on the mountain. Yes, right, So when I talk about
it in a Muslim framework, I'll use the word el
Akta or dome of the rock. Now they can go
(30:59):
up whenever they want. Remember, we went up. We saw
where they can go up, and the police stopped us.
You can't go up from here. But there are times,
there are certain days and times that we can go
up from a different place. And the absurdity in Jerusalem
and things that people don't understand is that the area
of El Akta, of what we call Temple Mount, is
controlled by the Walf, which is the holy entity of
(31:21):
the Muslims, and they decide what times people can come
up and down to visit, and the people who implement
what the Muslim authority decides or the Israeli police. Oh
that's interesting, Okay, Now this is parallel living. This is
understanding that there is a holy site and that we
need to police it a little bit. And in order
to go up, you need to make sure. You know,
(31:41):
they have very strict rules as to what you're allowed
to bring. You're not allowed to bring any holy scriptures,
you're not allowed to wear any religious identifications like a
yamaka for a jew or a cross outside and a necklace.
And you're allowed to visit the sites. And it's an
incredible place to visit. You know, we can go on Sunday, Monday, Tuesday,
but the hours are very specific, so it's much more
controlled up on El Aksa.
Speaker 1 (32:03):
What happened there so according to the Muslim.
Speaker 2 (32:07):
According to the Quran in chapter seventeen Sura seventeen, Muhammad
goes on a night journey, and on this night journey
he gets to a place called Ilakta. It doesn't say
where it is geographically, It just says il Akta, which
in a means the place that is furthest And from
this place he ascends to the heavens from this big
rock to have a negotiation with Allah. How many prayers
must a Muslim have a day? And he comes back
(32:28):
with the answer five. So the Golden Dome indicates the
location of that ascension and arrival back. So it's not
a mosque the Golden Dome. The Mosque of El Aksa
is like right right beside it. One was built in
six hundred and ninety one AD and the other one
was built in seven hundred and twenty eighty. The Father
built the first one, the Sun built the second one,
and that's how they established the third holiest place in
(32:50):
Islam in the world.
Speaker 1 (32:52):
Having lived in Jerusalem your whole life, how and obviously
October seventh is fourteen months ago, continues to be incredibly
jarring and impactful for Jews around the world and many
people who are not Jewish. Are you optimistic or pessimistic?
About where we are right now in society on this
(33:14):
Christmas Eve of twenty twenty four. When it comes to Jews, Muslims,
Christians being able to get along, especially in Jerusalem, which
is the central location for all three of those religions
in many ways.
Speaker 2 (33:28):
Well, first of all, we do. I'm an optimist. I'm
always an optimist. My heart has been shattered and broken
over and over since October seventh because we're still in war.
It's still happening. Our heart broken October seventh. Then it
breaks every day and every soldier that is killed out
in battle or every casualty that we have. But life
(33:48):
in Jerusalem exists. We parallel live all the time, especially
in the Old City. So listen, it's not like Kumbayah.
Let's go to each other's houses and we'll have tea together.
It just doesn't work. But the parallel living exists. The
mutual interest to bring back tourism and income is a
(34:10):
mutual interest for everyone. Yes, you know, that's where I
get along with my Arab colleagues in the Old City
and make Christian colleagues in the Old City. We all
want the same thing. We want people to come. We
want people to visit and want we just want to
live our life on the day to day. People just
want to live their life. They want to wake up
in the morning, go to work, hug their kids goodbye,
and come back. That's it. So if you're thinking about
(34:31):
the level of just the person to person walking in
the street buying some stuff, that is I'm very optimistic
about that. It's the radicals, it's the politics, it's the
higher up. That's where it doesn't.
Speaker 1 (34:43):
Work for people out there listening to us right now
and again, it's Christmas Eve who maybe Christian, Jewish, Muslim,
whatever their religious faiths are. Maybe they're not very religious
at all, Maybe they don't have a particular religion that
they feel connected to. Why should they come to Jerusalem?
What do you think people of all different denomination and
(35:04):
walks of life would benefit from having spent your whole
life teaching so many people about the history of Jerusalem.
Speaker 2 (35:11):
In my experience, anyone who came to Jerusalem would always
tell me I feel like I'm home. Rather you're religious,
whether you're not, you just come to Jerusalem and you
just get this feeling like something on the inside feels right.
What was the rest of your question?
Speaker 1 (35:30):
I think so many, Like for instance, my grandparents came
to Jerusalem when I was maybe before I was born,
or when I was super young, and it was a
lifelong dream of theirs as evangelical Christians to come and
get to see Jerusalem. I think there are a lot
of people listening to us like that right now. I
think there are also Jews and Muslims who are listening
(35:51):
to us right now. I think there are people on
this Christmas Eve that don't have a particular religious faith.
My contention is that I think they would all benefit
by coming and seeing Jerusalem absolutely depending. Basically, no matter
what your background is.
Speaker 2 (36:06):
It really doesn't matter to come and see a city
that has four thousand years of history, where you know
all the stories that we all grew up on. If
it's Abraham, if it's David, if it's Jesus, if it's Muhammad,
every religion, the basic of the story, even if you're
not religious, we all grew up on these on these
stories and what happened over here, and to see how
(36:26):
they're all intertwined and combined in one city. I mean,
Jerusalem sounds like a place that is separated. Like you
hear Jerusalem Christians Jews, Muslims. It sounds like separated. Jerusalem
is connective tissue. You feel connected. It has a connective
You go there and you feel connected to yourself, to
the ground, to the stories, to other people too. People
open up to you. You walk around, and every time
(36:48):
I guided people in Jerusalem, people would meet someone they
who from the past. In Jerusalem, there's like this insane
energy in Jerusalem that you just say to yourself, how
have I never been here before? I can't believe I
only came right now.
Speaker 1 (37:00):
Courage all of you to come on this Christmas Eve.
I hope you were having fantastic times with your friends
and your family. Yell Goodman, Oklahoma based family born and raised.
However in Jerusalem, this was amazing. I appreciate the time.
I know people loved it. If by chance they're listening
and they want a tour, how could they find you?
Speaker 2 (37:22):
Wow? Thank you?
Speaker 1 (37:24):
Well.
Speaker 2 (37:24):
I have a website with my running tours. It's run
JLM like Jerusalem dot com, so you can always reach
me at my website.
Speaker 1 (37:32):
I bet we're gonna send some people to you. Run
jlml com.
Speaker 2 (37:36):
And as I always you know, say to my family
in Oklahoma and Massachusetts, Shalom y'all. I always have a
sign of my mom that says Shalom y'all.
Speaker 1 (37:44):
This has bit fantastic. It's the Christmas Eve edition of
Clay and Buck. We'll be back with more for all
of you in a bit
This special edition Christmas Eve Show is brought to you
by the International Fellowship of Christians and Jews. Welcome and
thanks for joining us for a special Christmas Eve edition
of Clay and Buck. Welcome in. We are taping a
very special edition of Clay and Buck. It is the
Christmas Eve Edition. I am in Israel right now. First
(00:21):
of all, Merry Christmas to all of you. I hope
you were having fabulous times with your friends and your family.
But I also know that a lot of you work
even on Christmas Eve, and so we wanted to make
sure that we had a special, original Christmas Eve edition
of the show, and we thought nothing better than to
(00:41):
do it from Israel, given that it is in fact
the Holy Land, and in particular, one of the first
things we did when we got to Israel was we
had a tour of the Old City of Jerusalem. That's
right in the center of Jerusalem. I know many of
you would love to go and visit at some point
in time, and if you have visited, then you will
(01:03):
understand maybe a little bit of what we're talking about.
But we had a fabulous guide her name and she
is sitting with me here right now, Yaelle Goodman. She
took us all over the Old City of Jerusalem for
several hours, and we had such a great time that
we said, hey, what if we brought Yell on and
we asked her all sorts of questions so all of
(01:24):
you could understand the incredible knowledge and stories she had
to tell, so we could bring it to all of you.
So we bring in Yell Goodman first, and I'll get
into her background, but first, just for the bonafides, how
much work does it take to become a licensed tour
guide in Jerusalem? How does that come about? And how
(01:47):
did you come to have the job that you have
where you ended up with me and Ali and Andrew
our crew taking us around in the center of the
Old City of Jerusalem. How does that job exist? And
kind of give some sense of that if you could to.
Speaker 2 (02:01):
Start, well, the tour guide course in Israel, it's a
rigorous course. It's a two year course. And in this
two year course you need to learn archaeology and history
and geology and everything it takes to just guide people
along all of Israel, not only Jerusalem. So it includes
six hundred hours academic hours and eighty tours. Eighty tours
(02:22):
where you tour all over Israel. From those eighty tours,
fourteen days are dedicated to Jerusalem. So basically what we
did in our three hour tour in Jerusalem was like
a condensed you know, fourteen days of what you study
the tour guide course in like three hours.
Speaker 1 (02:39):
So there's so much to get into. But I couldn't
stop thinking about how close, regardless of what your religious
faith is, the holy sites for Christians, Jews, and Muslims
all are in the centrality of the Old City of Jerusalem.
For people who have not been before, the Western Wall,
(03:03):
the Sension I Guess of Muhammad for Muslims, and then
the Church of the Holy Separkle, the location of Jesus
christ crucifixion. All of these are within a short little
walking I mean you could almost since we got a
lot of football fans out there, you could almost basically
throw a football from one holy site to another holy
(03:27):
site of all three religions for people who have not
been Let's start with the Jewish faith. What is central
when you're going around on these tours for people who
have not been there before, what stands out that you
think they should know about? The sites that are important
to people of Jewish faith.
Speaker 2 (03:47):
So I think for Jews, the most important site is
the Western Wall, but the Western Raw is a relic
of what the temple use.
Speaker 1 (03:54):
What is the Western Walk. So a lot of people
have heard of that, and if they're not Jewish, they
may not know exactly what it is. What is the
Western Wall? You've seen many people have seen the pictures,
but kind of take us into why it's historically relevant.
Speaker 2 (04:06):
So the Western Rale is basically a wall of the
fortress that was built around Temple Mount. Okay, let's go
back a little bit. Temple Mount is the mountain that
the temple was on top of it. That's why it's
called Temple Mount. Yes, I'm using my hands as if
people can see me, because exactly so, when you go
back to the source of Judaism, you go back to
(04:29):
that formative moment where Abraham was asked by God to
take his loved son Isaac and to bind him and
to almost sacrifice him. That that takes place on Mount Mariah,
which on top of that mountain the first temple was built.
So that is a focal point that goes back four
thousand years. King David chose Jerusalem as the capital and
his son King Solomon builds the first Temple on that
(04:51):
same location where Abraham almost sacrificed Isaac, and so the
first temple was built over there. That temple is destroyed
by the Babylonians and rebuilt again.
Speaker 1 (04:59):
That first ti would have been built. How many thousands
of years ago? Roughly, I'm not expecting you to know
the exact year, but we're talking about like twenty five
hundred twenty seven hundre years.
Speaker 2 (05:09):
We're talking. We're talking three thousand years ago. Yep, we're
talking one thousand years BCE. Yes, okay, roughly.
Speaker 1 (05:16):
So the first temple is built.
Speaker 2 (05:18):
The first temple is built, the first Temple is destroyed.
The people, the Israelites living in the area, the rebel
against the Babylonians, and the Babylonians come, they destroyed the
first Temple. We're talking about five eighty six BCE or BC.
We use before Common Era, before Christ.
Speaker 1 (05:34):
We can do Christ exactly.
Speaker 2 (05:35):
So let's go for BC exactly. And the Jews are
exiled to Babylon and they come back. Not all of
them come back. A lot of them stay in Babylon,
which becomes a thriving Jewish community. It's the first Jewish diaspora,
but the people come back build the Second Temple, and
that Second Temple was renovated by King Herod. King Herod
was an appointee of the Romans to come and control
(05:56):
in Israel because just open brackets. And this also will
eventually connected the story of Jesus, the geopolitics around Jesus,
because you know, everything is about politics in the end,
and the geography that you're in and what decisions different
leaders and rulers needed to make in the context of
the time. So Herod comes to rule because the Romans
understand that there's a unique group of people that lives
(06:17):
in the province of Judea, which is what they called
Israel at the time. They're monotheistic. They believe in one God,
which was absurd if you think about it two thousand
years ago, where everyone was idle worshippers and.
Speaker 1 (06:26):
They believed of multiple gods, exactly multiple gods.
Speaker 2 (06:32):
And so the Romans knew that if there would be
direct Roman rule, there would be uprising in the province
of Judea and there'll be friction between the Jews and
this direct Roman ruler, and so they needed someone from
their own so they choose King Herod, who's also a
Jew and who also was raised in Rome, so he
can also understand the Jewish traditions and not have any
(06:54):
friction with the Jews. But also, you know, do what
Rome does, build a Roman city, a car, a theater,
all the things that the Romans wanted to see in
order to spread their Roman culture. So Herod comes, he
sees this temple and he's like, thinking Roman style, Roman architecture.
He's like, what do you mean this isn't a temple.
So he shows them what a temple is. So basically,
(07:16):
if you can use this imagery, there's a mountain. It's
like he takes a shoe box, a rectangular shaped shoe box,
and dresses it over the mountain. That is the platform
upon which the temple was built. If you fly on
a helicopter, it's as big as twelve soccer field. Speaking
of sports analogies, it's a massive area because it's a
venue where quarter of a million Jews are coming three
(07:40):
times a year to worship, and so he made it.
So what is the Western Wall? Back to your original question,
I think when we were together in the Old City,
I said, every question you have, it will take me
time to answer, because everything is really complicated and complex
with the answers. And so the Western Wall basically is
a tiny little part of that massive fortification that was
built around Temple Mount and this is what's exposed of it,
(08:03):
and it's closest to where the Holy of Holies was.
Speaker 1 (08:06):
And this would be the Western Wall how many thousands
of years ago?
Speaker 2 (08:10):
Two thousand years ago, two thousand years ago.
Speaker 1 (08:13):
It's important because everyone who's listening to us in America
something that's two hundred years old, people say, oh, my goodness,
can you believe that's so old. We're talking about two
thousand year old.
Speaker 2 (08:24):
Wall, two thousand year old wall, which probably Jesus came
to visit when he came to Jerusalem. This is the wall.
People went to the wall after the Second Tible was destroyed.
If you were a Jew two thousand years ago, you
would go and worship on the temple. And how would
you worship? You had a mediator, You had the priests,
the Kohanim. They would take your sacrifice, sacrifice it for you.
So there was a mediator between man and God and
(08:47):
the holiest place for Jews. For going back to the
Jewish question, is the Holy of Holies is the temple itself, yes,
because only one person can go in once a year,
and that is the High Priest, and he goes in
the day of Atonement, you don't keep poor, and he
goes into the Holy of Holies. But when the Temple
was destroyed, we don't know exactly where the location is.
And according to Jewish tradition, only when the Messiah comes,
(09:07):
he will rebuild the temple. And that's when the dream
of Orthodox Jews. Not all Jews feel this way or
believe in this, but that that's when the Priest will
come back and everything will come back. So until then
we are prohibited as Jews to even go up to
Temple Mount.
Speaker 1 (09:22):
So people as a result come and they worship at
the whaling at the Western War exactly and I almost
said whaling Wall because there is often crying exactly associated
with it.
Speaker 2 (09:33):
Right, you go to the wall. You know, every Jew
I know has grandparents who dreamt to come to Jerusalem.
And you go to the wall, and there's just that moment,
even it doesn't matter how you feel or how religious
you are, it's just kind of like a moment and
it's a wall, right, you're there, It's just a wall,
but it brings out so much emotion because the amount
of energy and prayer that was brought into that wall.
(09:54):
You literally feel.
Speaker 1 (09:55):
It, and so a lot of people put notes. People
may have seen or heard about this. It's separated. I
didn't know. Women have one entrance, men have another. You're
not side by side. But anyone can approach the wall,
regardless of what their religious or ethnicity might be.
Speaker 2 (10:12):
Absolutely anyone can go to the wall, anyone, any religious,
any ethnicity. Yes, there is a separation between men and
women because it's controlled by the Israeli Rabbinical Authority and
over there it's a separation between men and women. But
I find in my experience of everyone that I guided,
the Western Wall is really what moves people the most.
Speaker 1 (10:33):
Yes, it was. It was incredibly profound. All right. When
we come back, I'm going to ask you about Christian
holy sites in the Old Center of Jerusalem, also Muslim
holy sites. We'll get into that because I think it's
super fascinating, in particular the Church of the Holy Sepulcher,
which is not easy to pronounce, but what exactly is
(10:55):
in there, and we will discuss that on this special
Christmas Eve. Addition of Clay and Buck. Okay, we're here
on the Christmas Eve edition. We hope all of you
are having fabulous Christmas Eves across the country and around
the world as listening to us. We are taping this
in Israel in December. Many of you know that I
(11:15):
made a trip along with a couple of members of
our show cast behind the scenes to Israel. We had
an incredible guest who took us all around the center
of Old Jerusalem. Her name is Yeal Goodman. When I
went to break, I was saying, I wanted you to
tell me about the Church of the Holy Sepulcher and
(11:35):
why it is a integral part of the Christian faith.
But I hadn't really thought about this before. Maybe I
should have. Based on how old the city is, there
is a constant interplay between maybe what the religious story
is and what the historic story is. And before we
(11:55):
even get to that, you can walk through the old
city of Jerusalem. I'm the siner here and there is
a pathway that they say is likely to have been
what Jesus walked on his way to being crucified. Based
on your study, how accurate do you think that pathway is?
And I want everybody to understand out there, we're talking
(12:16):
about Jesus as a historic figure right now, for that
pathway someone who was crucified, that you could follow the
history here was really kind of staggering to me. When
Christians come and you give them tours, what do they
ask about it? How accurate do you think that pathway
is for what Jesus may have walked when he was
(12:37):
being crucified.
Speaker 2 (12:39):
Well, it's a tough question to answer, only because I'm
thinking about the Christians out there who are listening to me. Yeah,
on Christmas, on Christmas Eve exactly, So no pressure. Firstly,
I'll say that a path that has been walked for
over a thousand years, that's where the sanctity is, doesn't
really matter if it happened or not, because you're right,
(13:00):
there is a question. We have the religion and we
have the facts and the history in the archaeology. Sometimes
they don't mesh together, not for Jews, not for Christians,
not for Muslims. So you know, as a guide in
Jerusalem who guides different demographics, some more religious, some less religious,
I try to really be sensitive to the audience with
my answer. What I can tell you most likely do
(13:21):
I know for sure.
Speaker 1 (13:22):
No, I mean because it's that kind of staggering though,
sorry to cut you off, but the fact that something
that is so iconic and embedded in common thought, it
was really kind of staggering to me to think, we
know that there had to be a pathway, right, and
it's rare that there is something that is this old. Again,
I think this is important every one of the United States.
(13:44):
If a building is two hundred years old, you were like,
this is so old, can you believe we still have this.
We met a guy whose family has lived in the
same house in the center of Jerusalem for eight hundred years.
I mean the same house for eight hundred years. I mean,
you know, I always think it's funny when you go
to England or something and there are bars, literal pubs
(14:05):
that are older than the United States of America. They've
been serving beer there longer than our country has existed.
So my point on this is, as we're walking through
the old city of Jerusalem, the idea that you could
be on the same sort of pathway in any way,
or you said earlier that Jesus himself could have walked
(14:25):
down to the Western Wall, it would have been there
when he was there, I think is really eye opening
for many people. So the idea that there is this
pathway and that it's right there and you can even see,
I mean, I know for many Christians these are the
steps that Jesus would have walked. It's marked, you said,
for a thousand years people have been trying to figure
(14:48):
this out. And we'll get into the Church of the
Holy Sepulcher here in a moment, But that is the
idea of that church is that it's built right on
top of where they would have crucified everyone, and that's
where the walk ends exactly.
Speaker 2 (15:00):
So the fourteen Stations of the Cross basically start in
the place that was believed a Pontius pilot came to
Jerusalem and that's where he sentenced Jesus to death. Yes,
totally makes sense because Herod built that building beforehand, and
every building that Herod built, the Roman governors would come
after him would live in those facilities because they were good,
they were big, they were fancy.
Speaker 1 (15:18):
Because you're looking at the historic record and considering the
biblical record and trying to figure out how do we
determine the likely elements here, and it is as all
archaeology is oftentimes a best guest scenario, because the records
are only as good as the.
Speaker 2 (15:33):
Records are exactly, and you have to like cross reference,
and you have to cross reference with archaeology and with
history and with a bunch of other stuff. So basically,
roughly the Fourteen Stations probably could be that path because
it does go from point A for a Pontius pilot
sentences Jesus to death, and to point B, which is
the Church of the Holy Sepulcher, and somewhere along the
way is the path that he won.
Speaker 1 (15:52):
And there's only so many ways to go for that.
I mean, that's a relatively small distance, right for people
who have not been to Jerusalem.
Speaker 2 (15:59):
Exactly, And we know that topography doesn't change. The streets,
the alleys, the homes, they may change, but the topography
doesn't change.
Speaker 1 (16:06):
In other words, if you've got to go uphill to
get something, there's only so many ways to.
Speaker 2 (16:10):
Go up that head exactly. So we went uphill or
for example, the walls of Jerusalem. Jerusalem was a Jewish
city in the time that Jesus was executed. It was
controlled by the Romans politically, but religiously. It was a
Jewish city, so anything that had to do with the
death had to be done outside the city, and so
we were touring Jerusalem and the walls of the Ottoman
period of fifteen thirty nine. We remember when I stopped
in that place and I said, right now, we're exiting
(16:30):
the city in the time of Jesus. So at some
point Jesus walks outside the city in order to go
to the Golgotha, to the cavalry, which was outside of
the city. And it's very deceiving because today we're in
the city right the Church of the Holy Supplicker is
in the center of Jerusalem, but we need to imagine
it that it was outside of Jerusalem. And so we
get to the cavalry, which was kind of like the Golgoltha.
In Aramaic, Golgolet is a skull. So when people come
(16:52):
to this hill they see like a hill that looks
like a skull, which is associated with execution. This is
probably the place where they executed everyone, and right by
this side that they revealed. Archaeologically speaking, Second Temple burial,
it's a specific style that that's exactly how Jesus would
have buried two thousand years ago. We have style of
burials that change. First temple burial is different than second
Temple burial. And we saw we went into that place
(17:15):
in the Church of the Holy Sepulcher and we saw
the caves where you can place the body, roll the
stone over and read the scriptures and really see that
it was there.
Speaker 1 (17:21):
I want to come back to that moment. I'm going
to go into the church there in Jerusalem. We'll talk
about that. We'll also talk it is the Christmas Eve edition.
We'll talk about what exactly that church represents. I hope
many of you are enjoying this as much as we did.
I know you are. We'll be back and we'll talk
about that Church of the Holy Sepulcher in Jerusalem in
the next segment. Welcome back in special Christmas Eve edition
(17:46):
of The Clay Travis and Buck Sexton Show. I am
Clay Travis Live right now. As we are taping in Israel,
we wanted to do Our producer Ali said, hey, we
should do a special Christmas Eve edition focused on the
fact that we're in Israel and it is christ No pressure, yeall, goodman,
who if you were just getting in your cars or
you're just starting to listen, was our tour guide for
(18:07):
the historic center of the Old Jerusalem City that we
took a tour with. We loved it and we said
we want you to come talk to our audience. Okay.
When we left, we were talking about the walk with
Jesus on the crucifixion and the fact that he ends
up at this place called Golgotha, which is the skull
like location. There is now a church there and will
(18:29):
work our way towards it. The idea that they have
in the church is that they have pinpointed the location
of the of the cross and then of where Jesus
dies inside of that during that crucifixion. Okay, And the
church is fascinating because there are multiple different orthodoxies, different
(18:54):
denominations basically that have different aspects of the church. Never
I've been in a lot of cathedrals, I've been in
a lot of churches in my life. I've never seen
one that has this many different orthodoxies this minute, this
many different methods that they're celebrating with. So let me
start with this. What are the different groups that are
(19:15):
represented inside of this church? And let me clarify for
people out there listening, this is like you have a
Catholic Church with a Baptist Church, with a with a
Seventh day Adventist Church, all these different denominations all rolled
into one. I've never seen anything like this. What are
(19:36):
the denominations and how in the world did this come
to be?
Speaker 2 (19:41):
Well that we have five different denominations in the Church
of the Holy Sepulcher from three different continents. So it's insane. Yes,
you know, when I try to explain this to a
Jewish audience, I say, it's kind of like putting reform
Orthodox Conservatives and like Iraqi and Yema night Jews all
in one. Senegomay you never get along. Kind of like
what you said right now.
Speaker 1 (20:00):
I mean the idea of having Catholics and Baptists in
the same building and each of them controlling a different
portion of the building is a way I think of
kind of illustrating that, right, absolutely, So I set you off.
But so what does it look like?
Speaker 2 (20:13):
So what it looks like? Well, we have the Greek Orthodox,
uh huh. We have the Franciscans, who are the arm
of the Catholic the Pope. We have the Armenians, they
have a very big territory over there. The Coptics, which
are the Egyptian with the Egyptians and the Syrianic Orthodox,
which we were lucky to visit their church, the Aramaic
(20:35):
speaking Syrianic Church where they have that small room. Yes,
so every denomination according to the power that they had
at the time, how much real estate they have in
the church, what times of prayer they have, They're all
very much divided in how they pray. Now this is
also a unique example. How you have a Western church,
the Franciscans, okay, the Catholic Church together with all these
(20:56):
all the rest of our Eastern churches, so you have
like one Catholic and then the other Eastern churches. But also,
and I think we talked to this a lot about
on our tour, how like it's much harder to get
along within your family as opposed to outside. So like
Jews and Muslims and Christians kind of get along in
the old city, but like what happens inside that church,
So how they get along basically is something that the
(21:18):
Ottoman Empire decided in the middle of the nineteenth century.
It's called the status quo. They just realized they were
all fighting between them, between the churches, who has it
and this all started in the Church of Nativity in Bethlehem. Okay,
someone stole the star of that indicated where Jesus was born,
and a big war started from that war. Now, if
(21:41):
you zoom out, a lot of wars started because of religion.
You blame religion for a lot of wars, but really
it's a lot of undertow that went on years and
years beforehand, and that religious reason is kind of like
the match that sparks the war. But regardless, the Ottoman said, okay,
we can't do this anymore. We're going to go to
every church in the Holy Land in Israel, and we're
(22:03):
going to see where every denomination prays right now, So like,
for example, your Armenian, this is your area, this is
your time of prayer. This is where you have to clean.
And cleaning is an honor in the Church of the
Holy Supplicer. People don't fight who doesn't clean, people want
to clean it. And the Greek Orthodox and so kind
of like deciding what hours and what time and everything
that they wrote at the time that they wrote it
had to freeze in time. It's called the status quo.
(22:25):
So if you've been to Israel, you know the famous
story of the ladder outside the Church of the Holy
Suppliker that's still there since eighteen fifty six. And even
more crazy is this aluminium ladder between April and May
that they take out and just put it. It's dysfunctional.
People don't climb in it or fix something. It just
stands there because it's written in the Status Quo, which
shows you how things just need to freeze in order
(22:47):
to work. Just like, stop there, you know, you don't
move anymore. This is how it's going to work. And
it does, and it's unbelievable because the Church of the
Holy Supplicker is a microcosm of Jerusalem, the Old City.
So it's kind of like a little area where you
can see where all these different denominations get along, or
I wouldn't say get along, they parallel live, which is huge.
Speaker 1 (23:09):
So inside of this church is they Basically, the Crusaders
came a thousand years after Jesus you can correct me.
I'm this a rough historical record, and they decided they
wanted to build a church on the scene basically of
the Crucifixion.
Speaker 2 (23:28):
Well, the original church was built by Constantine Yea in
three hundred and thirty five.
Speaker 1 (23:33):
Yeah, and then it was destroyed.
Speaker 2 (23:35):
And it was destroyed in the church that we sized Crusader. Yes,
and it's a third of the size of the Byzantine
church that was built by Saint Helen Constantine's mom.
Speaker 1 (23:43):
Which is crazy because it's a big church already, to
think about the size of the church that was built
that far back. Yes, So the initial church is built
three hundred some odd years after the crucifixion, and the
idea is that they have built this church on the
scene of the site of voyag Jeus Jesus was crucified exactly.
Speaker 2 (24:02):
The chronology of archaeology of Christian sites in Israel is
similar in many different sites. The event that took place,
the early Christian community that preserved that place and remembered
where it was, and then think about it, from the
moment that Jesus is crucified until the Byzantine come into
power is three hundred years. That's a long time to
preserve a place. So Saint hell and Constantine Mom, she
(24:26):
comes and looks for those places, and that's where the
churches are built. Those churches are destroyed, unfortunately and rebuilt
by the Crusaders. So a lot of Christian sites in Israel,
this is their story, the event that took place, the
early Christian community that guarded these places, and their memory
from father to son, from father to son, and the
churches that were built afterwards over that, and so we
have a very good indication as to where these churches are,
(24:48):
combined with the archaeology around it.
Speaker 1 (24:50):
Based on what you've seen, do you think that that
church is in the place where the and by the way,
it wasn't just Jesus. There were lots of people being
crucified back in those days, which is important. Do you
think that they built it roughly where the crucifixions were
likely to have occurred?
Speaker 2 (25:04):
Yes, I mean, I don't want to make any Protestants
upset because they have a different location in Jerusalem. It's
called the Garden Tomb. Yes, and so there are two
locations of where the crucifixion and resurrection took place. I listen,
ever since I'm ever, since I'm a little girl. My mother.
You know, my mother's from Oklahoma City. Let's open this up.
(25:25):
My mother's from Oklahoma City. She comes from a Roman
Catholic family, partly Native American. So you know, I'm like,
I have a mess of a background and my grandmother
was a devout Catholic woman and every time she would
come to Jerusalem, my mother would say, sugar Doll, take
her to the church. And like, I just knew one church,
and that was the Church of the Holy Supplicker. So
(25:46):
ever since I'm like seven years old, I walk my
grandma to the Church of the Holy Supplicker and I
see and so I have a very deep connection to
that church as a young Jewish girl in Jerusalem taking
her Catholic grandmother to this church. Yes, in my tour guide,
I realized the necessity of these different communities to have
different locations. You know, religion comes with logistics and you
(26:07):
got to take that under consideration. And the Church the
Garden Tomb is located outside the walls today and they
have their own story and their own area, and I
get it, but I definitely think that the Church of
the Holy Supplicker is the location.
Speaker 1 (26:21):
Okay, So we've talked about the historic sites for Jews
for Christians, also a historic site for Muslims, and I'm
not as familiar with this one. So you took us
and when we come back, we'll discuss that. To kind
of close out this hour about the Holy Land, on
Christmas Eve, Muslims don't allow you to walk into their
(26:45):
holy site. I didn't know this, but I'm going to
have you tell us about that. I will say, I
think this is important. Right now, it's not very crowded
in the Old City of Jerusalem, and you had to
as a tour guide come through COVID when nobody basically
is allowed. And you started running tours at that time,
(27:08):
and you said during our tour, there's very few Americans
over here, as in the wake of October seventh, there's
been very few people coming to Israel on and tourist
strips or anything else. How did our crowd compare to
a usual crowd and a pre COVID era in Jerusalem.
Speaker 2 (27:29):
First of all, I have a lot of appreciation for
people who come at times like this right showing support
and solidarity, And it's very moving for us Israelis, especially
you know, the people who work with foreigners like you
all year and all of a sudden everybody disappeared. Yes,
So I find that you and Ali and the and
(27:50):
Andrew and the people that come over here are super engaged,
really want to be here, highly curious, and and it
just makes makes me want to give as much as
I can, you know, Like like on our tour, I
did a lot more than I planned because I saw
how engaged you were and how you wanted to be here,
and and to me, the old city always feels like
home and safe. I don't know how you felt.
Speaker 1 (28:12):
I felt completely safe, But I understand people out there
are nervous about making trips to Israel. But having been
to Rome, which I loved, I was stunned. And in Florence,
which are swarmed, it's almost impossible to move in some
of those streets. I was stunned by how open it
felt in the Old City of Jerusalem right now, So
(28:37):
I think that's a benefit.
Speaker 2 (28:38):
It is, But like right before COVID, it was you
would you were not able to walk in the Old
City of Jerusalem. We walked so like openly up the
Via de la Rosa, think of like a concert, like
with like shoulder or shoulder tight. That's what it used
to be. Like, Yes, pre COVID, you can barely walk
around Jerusalem was it wasn't even fun to guide anymore.
Going to the Church of the Holy Supplocker, you'd wait
(28:59):
outside in line for ever, and there is no regulation
like there is in Rome to go into the Vatican. Yeah,
everybody comes whenever they want. We're in you know, we're
in the Middle East.
Speaker 1 (29:07):
No, now, when we come back, we'll talk about being
in the Middle East. Jewish, Christian, Muslim, all within a
short distance of each other. It's Christmas Eve. We appreciate
you hanging out with us. Special edition of Clay and
Buck Welcome back in Clay Travis Buck Sexton Show Special
Christmas Eve edition that we are taping in Israel with
our tour guide for the historic center of the Old
(29:29):
City of Jerusalem. Yeah, old goodman. I appreciate her being
with us. You heard that she's got all sorts of
family back in America. But you are born and raised
in Israel, born.
Speaker 2 (29:39):
And raised in Jerusalem, I always say, born, raised in stayed.
Speaker 1 (29:42):
And but you have a lot of family in Oklahoma.
I do, which is maybe not the overlap that people
would anticipate. So they maybe they're listening some of your
family in Oklahoma right now on Christmas Eve. We should
mention there's an amazing midnight Mass in the Church of
the Holy Sufflicker that takes place today as we are
talking to all of you, which is an incredible scene
(30:04):
and I imagine pretty incredible.
Speaker 2 (30:07):
It's incredible. I mean for anyone. You know, we were
talking about the Western Wall, how everybody you want is
drawn to that. A lot of even Israelis go to
this mass Yes, it's special and it there's something about
that church that it just it just very moving.
Speaker 1 (30:24):
I agree. I really really deeply appreciated being able to visit,
and you being our tour guide there. We mentioned that
you can walk in and see that whether you're a
Christian or a Jew. For those two holy sites, not
so for the Muslim site.
Speaker 2 (30:39):
Well, the Muslims. Listen, the Muslims. If you're a Muslim,
you can go up, yeah, to El Aktsa. You know,
when I say Temple Mount, it's a very Jewish way
of referring to Temple Mount because it referred to temple
on the mountain. Yes, right, So when I talk about
it in a Muslim framework, I'll use the word el
Akta or dome of the rock. Now they can go
(30:59):
up whenever they want. Remember, we went up. We saw
where they can go up, and the police stopped us.
You can't go up from here. But there are times,
there are certain days and times that we can go
up from a different place. And the absurdity in Jerusalem
and things that people don't understand is that the area
of El Akta, of what we call Temple Mount, is
controlled by the Walf, which is the holy entity of
(31:21):
the Muslims, and they decide what times people can come
up and down to visit, and the people who implement
what the Muslim authority decides or the Israeli police. Oh
that's interesting, Okay, Now this is parallel living. This is
understanding that there is a holy site and that we
need to police it a little bit. And in order
to go up, you need to make sure. You know,
(31:41):
they have very strict rules as to what you're allowed
to bring. You're not allowed to bring any holy scriptures,
you're not allowed to wear any religious identifications like a
yamaka for a jew or a cross outside and a necklace.
And you're allowed to visit the sites. And it's an
incredible place to visit. You know, we can go on Sunday, Monday, Tuesday,
but the hours are very specific, so it's much more
controlled up on El Aksa.
Speaker 1 (32:03):
What happened there so according to the Muslim.
Speaker 2 (32:07):
According to the Quran in chapter seventeen Sura seventeen, Muhammad
goes on a night journey, and on this night journey
he gets to a place called Ilakta. It doesn't say
where it is geographically, It just says il Akta, which
in a means the place that is furthest And from
this place he ascends to the heavens from this big
rock to have a negotiation with Allah. How many prayers
must a Muslim have a day? And he comes back
(32:28):
with the answer five. So the Golden Dome indicates the
location of that ascension and arrival back. So it's not
a mosque the Golden Dome. The Mosque of El Aksa
is like right right beside it. One was built in
six hundred and ninety one AD and the other one
was built in seven hundred and twenty eighty. The Father
built the first one, the Sun built the second one,
and that's how they established the third holiest place in
(32:50):
Islam in the world.
Speaker 1 (32:52):
Having lived in Jerusalem your whole life, how and obviously
October seventh is fourteen months ago, continues to be incredibly
jarring and impactful for Jews around the world and many
people who are not Jewish. Are you optimistic or pessimistic?
About where we are right now in society on this
(33:14):
Christmas Eve of twenty twenty four. When it comes to Jews, Muslims,
Christians being able to get along, especially in Jerusalem, which
is the central location for all three of those religions
in many ways.
Speaker 2 (33:28):
Well, first of all, we do. I'm an optimist. I'm
always an optimist. My heart has been shattered and broken
over and over since October seventh because we're still in war.
It's still happening. Our heart broken October seventh. Then it
breaks every day and every soldier that is killed out
in battle or every casualty that we have. But life
(33:48):
in Jerusalem exists. We parallel live all the time, especially
in the Old City. So listen, it's not like Kumbayah.
Let's go to each other's houses and we'll have tea together.
It just doesn't work. But the parallel living exists. The
mutual interest to bring back tourism and income is a
(34:10):
mutual interest for everyone. Yes, you know, that's where I
get along with my Arab colleagues in the Old City
and make Christian colleagues in the Old City. We all
want the same thing. We want people to come. We
want people to visit and want we just want to
live our life on the day to day. People just
want to live their life. They want to wake up
in the morning, go to work, hug their kids goodbye,
and come back. That's it. So if you're thinking about
(34:31):
the level of just the person to person walking in
the street buying some stuff, that is I'm very optimistic
about that. It's the radicals, it's the politics, it's the
higher up. That's where it doesn't.
Speaker 1 (34:43):
Work for people out there listening to us right now
and again, it's Christmas Eve who maybe Christian, Jewish, Muslim,
whatever their religious faiths are. Maybe they're not very religious
at all, Maybe they don't have a particular religion that
they feel connected to. Why should they come to Jerusalem?
What do you think people of all different denomination and
(35:04):
walks of life would benefit from having spent your whole
life teaching so many people about the history of Jerusalem.
Speaker 2 (35:11):
In my experience, anyone who came to Jerusalem would always
tell me I feel like I'm home. Rather you're religious,
whether you're not, you just come to Jerusalem and you
just get this feeling like something on the inside feels right.
What was the rest of your question?
Speaker 1 (35:30):
I think so many, Like for instance, my grandparents came
to Jerusalem when I was maybe before I was born,
or when I was super young, and it was a
lifelong dream of theirs as evangelical Christians to come and
get to see Jerusalem. I think there are a lot
of people listening to us like that right now. I
think there are also Jews and Muslims who are listening
(35:51):
to us right now. I think there are people on
this Christmas Eve that don't have a particular religious faith.
My contention is that I think they would all benefit
by coming and seeing Jerusalem absolutely depending. Basically, no matter
what your background is.
Speaker 2 (36:06):
It really doesn't matter to come and see a city
that has four thousand years of history, where you know
all the stories that we all grew up on. If
it's Abraham, if it's David, if it's Jesus, if it's Muhammad,
every religion, the basic of the story, even if you're
not religious, we all grew up on these on these
stories and what happened over here, and to see how
(36:26):
they're all intertwined and combined in one city. I mean,
Jerusalem sounds like a place that is separated. Like you
hear Jerusalem Christians Jews, Muslims. It sounds like separated. Jerusalem
is connective tissue. You feel connected. It has a connective
You go there and you feel connected to yourself, to
the ground, to the stories, to other people too. People
open up to you. You walk around, and every time
(36:48):
I guided people in Jerusalem, people would meet someone they
who from the past. In Jerusalem, there's like this insane
energy in Jerusalem that you just say to yourself, how
have I never been here before? I can't believe I
only came right now.
Speaker 1 (37:00):
Courage all of you to come on this Christmas Eve.
I hope you were having fantastic times with your friends
and your family. Yell Goodman, Oklahoma based family born and raised.
However in Jerusalem, this was amazing. I appreciate the time.
I know people loved it. If by chance they're listening
and they want a tour, how could they find you?
Speaker 2 (37:22):
Wow? Thank you?
Speaker 1 (37:24):
Well.
Speaker 2 (37:24):
I have a website with my running tours. It's run
JLM like Jerusalem dot com, so you can always reach
me at my website.
Speaker 1 (37:32):
I bet we're gonna send some people to you. Run
jlml com.
Speaker 2 (37:36):
And as I always you know, say to my family
in Oklahoma and Massachusetts, Shalom y'all. I always have a
sign of my mom that says Shalom y'all.
Speaker 1 (37:44):
This has bit fantastic. It's the Christmas Eve edition of
Clay and Buck. We'll be back with more for all
of you in a bit
The Clay Travis and Buck Sexton Show News
Hosts And Creators
Clay Travis
Buck Sexton
Show Links
WebsiteNewsletterPopular Podcasts
Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations.
Stuff You Should Know
If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.
The Breakfast Club
The World's Most Dangerous Morning Show, The Breakfast Club, With DJ Envy And Charlamagne Tha God!