December 23, 2024 • 75 mins
Sean Parnell and Amber Smith discuss their military service and how the events of 9/11 inspired them to join the military. They discuss the disconnect between military brass and the boots on the ground, as well as the two-tiered justice system in America and the catastrophic withdrawal from Afghanistan in 2021.
Amber Smith is a former Kiowa Warrior helicopter pilot who deployed to Iraq and Afghanistan between 2005-2008, and the author of her best selling memoir “Danger Close.”
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:03):
Recording, You're about to enter the arena.
Speaker 2 (00:07):
And join the battle to save America with your host,
Sean Parnell. There were many times in Afghanistan when I
contemplated life and death. In fact, as my combat deployment
wore on, I thought about it more and more, especially
(00:27):
in those quiet moments just back from a mission cycle
in my hooge, by myself alone with my thoughts. I
survived today. Will I survive tomorrow? If you focus on
that question too much, will I survive tomorrow? It will
drive you crazy. I've seen men become so obsessed with
(00:49):
it that it handicaps your ability to not just operate
effectively in the field, but everything. It colors how you think.
Pervasive egg anxiety and fear take over. It's utterly paralyzing.
So many of us learned to stop asking it all together.
In fact, many of us had to convince ourselves that
(01:12):
we were dead already, that it was only a matter
of time and a question of how it would happen.
When this reality set in, we functioned better in combat.
Fear didn't color our decisions. There was no hesitation. The
only thing that mattered was the man to your left
and right and doing everything you could to make it
(01:35):
back to the base home alive and win the day.
About six months into my tour, I started thinking a
lot about legacy. What would happen if I die? How
would my family and friends react. They'd be sad for
a time, sure, but after a while would they forget
(01:56):
about me? Would they miss me? I was killed in action.
I had no kids to carry on without me to
help keep my memory alive. Death seemed so final, and
I will admit that that prospect scared the hell out
of me. Then I started thinking about how many thousands
(02:19):
of Americans had these same exact thoughts as me. Those
who came before me who served on hundreds of battlefields
all over the world in defense of freedom, Those men
and women who were forever changed by their experience of
war who then had to somehow come home and survive
(02:40):
and make something of themselves. Or those Americans who never
made it home. God rest their souls. There were so
many times I tried to process the enormity of this,
both in Afghanistan and after I came home. I have
to say I still think about it. The legacy of
(03:01):
those who came before me and in my generation, the
sacrifices those men and women made on the altar of
freedom for us and the idea that we truly stand
on the shoulders of giants, and we should remember them
in that great sacrifice. We should do everything we can
(03:23):
to pass on their legacy to the next generation as
well as to ensure that their memory lives on forever.
And my next guest is someone who understands this very
very well, because this legacy is in her blood. Her
grandfather was a pilot in World War Two. Her father
(03:46):
was in the eighty second Airborne Infantry and as a pilot.
Her mother is a pilot. She's one of three sisters,
all of whom served and are pilots. Her name is
Amber Smith. Amber is a Kiowa Warrior helicopter pilot who
served in Iraq and Afghanistan at the height of the
Wars and is the best selling author of the book
(04:06):
Danger Close. More recently, she served in the Pentagon as
Under Secretary of Defense for public Outreach. She is a
warrior through and through in one hell of an American.
Ladies and gentlemen, I hope you enjoy our conversation Amber Smith.
(04:29):
Welcome to Battleground. Thank you so much for joining me.
Speaker 1 (04:33):
Thank you so much for having me. It's so great
to be on with you again.
Speaker 2 (04:37):
Yeah, this is crazy. We were just talking about prior
to going to recording, about how we've known each other
for ten years. Isn't that crazy?
Speaker 1 (04:47):
It's crazy that has been that long. That's why I
was saying, like again, like I feel like we've spoke together,
we've done media together, We've done like all sorts of
different advocacy work together, and so so yeah, be on
your podcast now, which I'm so excited that you have launched.
It's just awesome to be on with you.
Speaker 2 (05:03):
Yeah, this is kind of crazy. We all have have
had sort of an insane journey over the last ten
years to get to this point. And I was thinking
about you in prep for this interview because I do know,
as we talked about, I have known you for ten years,
and you're a pretty incredible person. You know, you're competitive,
(05:24):
you're driven. You were a gymnast and then you were
a cheerleader, and then you made the transition to attack
helicopter pilot for the military and then a best selling author.
But you have this dog, this bulldog named Kaiowa, who
every picture that you take of this dog looks like
(05:44):
it can barely breathe on its own, So it sort
of turns the whole narrative of people buy dogs. People
buy dogs like they are on their head.
Speaker 1 (05:56):
Well, I think there's some truth to the she can
barely breathe part of it. And if you hear some snoring,
that's probably because she's laying down right next to me.
But she's awesome. She's a bulldog. She's the like laziest
breed out there. So there's I want to say that
there's not much work. But for any bulldog owner you
will know that, like, bulldogs are very high maintenance, especially
(06:18):
for how lazy they are. But yeah, she got the
name Kaiowa obviously because I used to fly Kaiwa's in
the Army and I had to keep the legacy going
because I got her the same year that the Army
decommissioned the Kiowa.
Speaker 2 (06:32):
So so I want to talk about legacies here in
a second. But how do you, as a competitive driven
person get a dog that's so lazy.
Speaker 1 (06:42):
So I lived in Washington, D C. When I first
got the dog, and I was like, I need you know.
I was actually working at the Pentagon when I got her,
and I was like I need a dog that is
going to be okay with you know, because when you
work in the Pentagon, you work very long hours. And
I was like, I need a dog that is going
to be okay with getting loss of sleep, and bulldog
(07:06):
fits exactly what I was looking for.
Speaker 2 (07:10):
Well, Kai, it's awesome though.
Speaker 1 (07:12):
Bulldogs are so much work, but they're such like loyal, loving,
stubborn dogs.
Speaker 2 (07:19):
Well, you talked about legacy and what I found remarkable
because I read You've got this book out it's called
Danger Close, and I read that book a long time ago,
and one of the things that struck me very early
on in reading that book is that you come from
a family of pilots. I think it's remarkable, So correct
(07:41):
me if I'm wrong. You had a grandfather that flew
in World War Two?
Speaker 1 (07:45):
Right, I do. My grandfather he flew in the Army
Air Corps in World War Two. He flew the aerial
routes between Northern Africa in Europe, and he also flew
some super early on helicopter prototypes. After the war, he
went on to fly for the airlines. But that's really
(08:08):
where the aviation bug began in my family. So yeah,
he kind of started it all.
Speaker 2 (08:17):
So you had a grandfather who is a pilot. Your
mom is also a pilot, right.
Speaker 1 (08:24):
Your dad, my dad was a pilot for a PanAm
My mom she was a pilot. She was a civilian pilot.
Women were still very rare back in the sixties when
she was flying sixties and then in the seventies, and
she got all of her ratings up to CF double
I Certified Flight Instructor for Instruments and she loved it
(08:45):
as well. It was like a hobby of hers that
she would do whenever she could save up the money
to afford the flight hours, because aviation is a very
expensive hobby. And then, I mean, it kind of comes
with no surprise that they raised three we wanted to
become pilots ourselves. We grew up around it. We always
talked about aviation growing up. It was like just natural conversation.
(09:09):
My dad would talk to us about how important airspeed is.
He would talk to us about learning how to read
a sectional, and we're talking at like a young age,
and we as kids, like like some people go camping
with their parents. Like we learned about every aspect of
aviation and from like you know, from when we could
talk up until we were getting our aviation licenses. So
(09:34):
I think that had the biggest impact on us in
terms of moving forward and pursuing aviation.
Speaker 2 (09:40):
So clearly, so clearly there was a legacy of aviators
of pilots in your family. Were you thinking about that
legacy when you joined the military in two thousand and one.
Speaker 1 (09:57):
You know, I don't think I thought of it as
a legacy. I thought how amazing it was that I
got to experience something that people had previous, like through
generations of my family had got to experience. I know,
I got to experience it completely different. My dad was
in the airborne infantry in the eighty second, so like
my experience in aviation was much different than his infantry
(10:21):
experience in the sixties. So, but also my mom. I know,
my mom, like I told you, she was very interested
in aviation. And she told me when I started to
go down the path of after nine to eleven and
being like I think, I know now how I can
apply my patriotism, my love of country and and love
(10:44):
of aviation and put it all together and become a
helicopter pilot. And so when I started pursuing that, my mom,
I remember her saying just how amazing she thought it
was that her three daughters had the opportunity to pursue this,
because she didn't have that opportunity when she was interested
(11:05):
in aviation. And she just thought it was remarkable and
very cool that we were getting to do this. And
so I remember that, and I sort of never took
that opportunity for granted, and I appreciated that I was
where I was in life where I was able to
become a helicopter pilot because it was still fairly new.
Speaker 2 (11:28):
Yeah, So was it nine to eleven that was the
catalyst for you to join?
Speaker 1 (11:33):
It was I had loved the military because growing up,
like I said, with my dad's stories of serving in
the army and then aviation, I never knew for the
military was something that sounded cool and would be amazing
if I ever pulled the trigger and decided to go
for But it was nine to eleven that was like,
(11:55):
all right, I want to serve my country. I don't
want to wait. You know, I was in college when
it happened, and I was like, I don't want to
wait any longer. I feel like it's crystal clear for
me now. I want to serve my country, and I
feel like the best way that I can do that
is through my love of aviation and my experience with aviation,
and that's the proper path for me.
Speaker 2 (12:17):
But you had to know. You had to know Amber
that well, first of all, talk about nine. Let's talk
about nine to eleven for a second. If you lived
through that, I feel like it affected you to the
very core of who you are as a person, and
the very core you know. I can even to this day.
I mean, oh gosh, like over twenty years ago, I
(12:40):
could tell you exactly where I was, what I was doing,
what I had for dinner the night before and breakfast
that morning, what all my roommates in college were doing.
And I remember everything every second of that day. And
I think it's because nine to eleven sort of engages
engaged you all of your senses, but also on a
very deep seated emotional level. And Amber, you had to
(13:03):
know that when you when you volunteer to serve this
country after nine to eleven, and you were going into
you wanted to be an aviator, So you wanted to
I guess you wanted to join the army, and that
meant that you were probably going to fly rotary wing helicopters.
You had to know that you were going to be
going to combat in some way, shape or form, right,
(13:24):
I did.
Speaker 1 (13:25):
And I think it was nine to eleven for me.
It was the first time that I realized that the
freedoms that we love and enjoy every single day are
trying to be taken from us. You know, those freedoms
are threats to a lot of groups and adversaries around
the world. And so in my very early adult age,
(13:46):
it was the first time that I had that aha
moment of like, this can be taken away. This isn't
something we should be taken for granted, as we saw
with what happened for nine to eleven, and I wanted
to give back to the country that had given me
all of that. And I knew that becoming a helicopter
pilot in the Army, I would likely, you know, head
(14:08):
to war sooner or later, and I did. I ended
up actually going to boot camp two thousand and three
and then straight from there into flight school at Fort Rocker, Alabama,
and then I got Fort Campbell, Kentucky, the Hunter and
First Airborne Division for my first duty station, and I
(14:32):
was deploying within the year of me being there to Iraq.
Speaker 2 (14:36):
What's remarkable about that is that if you think back
at that time, so you and I are essentially the
same age, had such a similar experience and reason for
why we joined the military back then. Did you have
any conversation with your parents after nine to eleven when
(14:56):
you made that decision.
Speaker 1 (14:59):
So I think I have an extremely rare sort of
experience with my parents with joining the military, because I
know so many people that I've talked to had the
exact opposite of what I did. My parents were so
unbelievably supportive. My dad, from serving himself, understood and knew
exactly what the military did for an individual and how
(15:22):
much it helped you grow and grow up and become
an adult, and sort of the lessons that you learn
while you're in the military and about other people and
the camaraderie and what it actually means to serve, to
serve something greater than yourself and be a part of
that brotherhood, in that sisterhood. So they knew. My parents knew,
(15:43):
and they were very supportive. I think the whole war
aspect of it was nerve racking to them because that
was new and obviously a child like I now that
I'm a parent myself, Like, I can't even imagine what
that is like. But in terms of military service and
wanting to go fly in the military and serve my country,
I could not have had a better support structure for
(16:06):
them being proud and like happy that I was choosing
that path.
Speaker 2 (16:14):
They had to be superheroes because you know, you said,
you're a mother now and I'm a father, and yeah,
I can't imagine having those conversations with my children knowing
that they're going to be going into the fight, you know,
wanting to volunteer for the military in a time of war.
But what's kind of unbelievable about your circumstance and unique
(16:36):
to you is that you weren't the only one. You
had two sisters that also joined the military and found
themselves serving in a time of war. Am I right
about this as well?
Speaker 1 (16:47):
You're right. My older sister, Kelly, she was a C
one thirty pilot for the California inter National Guard multiple deployments.
I actually got to spend some time with her in Afghanistan,
which was crazy.
Speaker 2 (17:01):
That's crazy, it's crazy crazy. I mean, for your parents
to have to bear that birden of three first of
all women in the military in a post nine to
eleven world in Iraq, and I get two wars raging,
two wars raging at the same time. Did you ever ask?
Speaker 1 (17:20):
So in two thousand and eight they had twice two
daughters in the same combat zone. So I got to
see Kelly in two thousand and eight, I was in Afghanistan.
I was in RC East in Jalalabad, and then and
she was based out of Bagram and she got to
fly into Jalalabad and we got to see each other there.
(17:44):
And then I got to see her up in Bagram
a couple of times. And then at the end of
my deployment the end of two thousand and eight, my
sister Lacey, we did the RIPTOA with her unit, and
so she you know, her unit was replacing ours, and
so we had about like a ten overlap, I want
to say, and it was crazy, Like I remember that
that was really hard for me because when Kelly left,
(18:09):
she said goodbye to me so to speak, like I
was still in country and she was leaving. And when
Lacey was there, she was a helicopter she was a
black Hawk helicopter pilot in the Hunter first as well,
and Obviously I could relate more to her mission because
I was a helicopter pilot as well, and I sort
of knew what the year had been like for me
(18:29):
and some of the danger that exists as a helicopter
pilot in Afghanistan, And so I was like, it was
very hard for me to say goodbye to her, knowing
that I was leaving her there for an entire year
and what she could potentially face. So it was amazing
to see both of them in country, but it was
also like, it was crazy to leave my sister there.
Speaker 2 (18:53):
How did you do it?
Speaker 1 (18:53):
When I came home?
Speaker 2 (18:54):
How did you say goodbye to her?
Speaker 1 (18:56):
It was really rough. She came, she she came to
like the holding area for us to get onto the plane,
like our final departure before they lock you down. She
like came to me there, and it was you know,
I tried to give her the big sister pep talk
about like you get in this situation, like do this,
(19:18):
do this, do this, and yeah, it was just like
how do you put it into words to like leave
a family member behind in a combat zone. That is
like for me, Afghanistan was a much harder deployment than
Iraq was and I knew that that she was going
into that, and she was an RC East as well,
so it was tough. It was. It was tough.
Speaker 2 (19:41):
Yeah, I was I know what it's like. Yeah, well listen,
I know what it's like. And yeah, you're leaving a
family member there. You know how dangerous it is. And
it sounded like you said she made it back.
Speaker 1 (20:01):
She did. I was grateful, but I know it was
a rough deployment, as it was for most people during
that time frame. You know, it's it's combat. It sucks,
you see some things that it's war, war as war
as hell, and so yeah, it was a rough deployment
(20:22):
for everybody. And but like I said, like so grateful,
she came back safe and sound, and I'm really proud
of her.
Speaker 2 (20:36):
Do you ever talk about your experiences in Afghanistan or
in combat together.
Speaker 1 (20:42):
So when she came home from Afghanistan, we kind of
definitely had that connection. And I know there were some
very she did. Some of her mission was like a
METAVAC pilot as well, and so it's different than what
(21:09):
we did as Kiowa pilots. So we got to talk
through all of that, and I do think it was
helpful to have sort of relatable experiences where usually the
people that you talk about are people who have you
know in your unit, who have been there, done that,
shared experiences, and you guys are able to sort of
like laugh, cry, like talk about all the bs and
(21:32):
tell the war stories together. But it was nice to
be able to be able to do that with my sister,
and I think it was helpful for both of us.
Speaker 2 (21:41):
Do you think the war, Well, I know the answer
to this question already, because it's inevitable. If you experienced war,
doesn't matter if you're flying one hundred de feet above
it or your boots on the ground. It does change
you in some deeper and profound ways. Have you and
your sister recognized any of the changes in yourselves?
Speaker 1 (22:04):
Well, I'm not sure about my sister. For me, you know,
when I first came back, I was like, oh, I fine, whatever,
like didn't give much thought to it. It wasn't until
I transferred out of the military where I was like,
you operate at such a high stress level as a
(22:24):
Kiowa pilot when you and this is just like take
away combat. Takeaway combat, You're flying a small squarely aircraft
with a fifty cal machine gun, a rocket pod seven
high explosive rockets, you can carry hellfire missiles. You've got
a thermal imaging site system, and you have five radios
(22:46):
to talk on, listen to all at the same with
all different information, everybody talking into your ear. You've got
your weapons systems, you've got your nav system. You have
to fly a helicopter, make sure that you and your
co pilot are on top of that. And then you
have the mission. You have the ground force, the friendly situation,
(23:06):
and this is going back to combat. Now you have
the enemy situation. Sometimes people are shooting at you. You're
getting target grids, target coordinates to take out an enemy target.
Bringing everything up, you have all sorts of aerial hazards
like mountains, birds, cell phone towers, wires, very steep valleys,
(23:27):
and power limitations within the aircraft and how much power
you have when you're doing these like deep dive attacks
with a fifty cal or rockets, and so it's a
lot at one time. Like you're if you're a Kiwa pilot,
you are likely an adrenaline junkie because that's what's going
on the entire time you're in the air, and you
(23:50):
get these troops in contact calls and then it's like
it's like a light switch, like it's on. It's like
go time, let's go. Like you could be like sitting there, fat,
dumb and happy, flying alt looking for the bad guy
and like the mountains of Afghanistan, and then you get
that call that there's friendly forces on the ground that
are overrun, getting attacked by the enemy, got hit by
(24:11):
an ID whatever, and it's like as Kywa pilots, we
prided ourselves in being able to have a call side,
a grid and a frequency and that's all we needed
to go destroy the enemy and to protect those guys
on the ground that were in the thick of the fight.
That was our purpose. That was our mission, was to
(24:33):
protect those guys, make sure they came home to their
families and try to make their day a little bit
easier because they didn't get to go back to the
fob that I lived on. They lived out in the cops,
they lived out in the outposts with horrible food, you know,
not sleeping conditions. The enemy was always on them, and
(24:53):
so we prided ourselves in being able to respond with
as little information as possible. We didn't fly as fast
as an Apache, but we dropped everything to get there
and help them out in any way that we could.
And that's what we lived for, and that's what we
prided ourselves on in combat, was being there for them
(25:16):
when it mattered the most. And so the adrenaline was
always there. And when you're deployed in combat, you lived
that for a year at a time. And I remember
speaking to a senior officer when I got back from
Iraq and he said, through some research, he was the
(25:37):
one sixtieth guy. He said that through their research they
had realized for every year you do at combat, it
takes twice that to sort of come down from that.
And then you compound it because you know, we're doing
these back to back to back deployments for years at
a time. My deployments were both one year. The army
had shifted to fifteen months after I was done deploying,
(25:59):
but so it was a lot and by the time
I got out, I had been living this like adrenaline,
stress filled lifestyle as most people experience in combat, and
had lost friends and it takes a while to come
down from that. I would say, like it takes years
(26:20):
to come down from that. It's not something that you
go talk to somebody about you know, for six weeks
and then you feel better. It's like it takes time
to sort of reset your lifestyle. At least that's the
way it is for me. And when I say lifestyle,
I mean sort of like your mindset and how you
(26:41):
operate without being three hundred miles an hour every day.
So that was a super long answer.
Speaker 2 (26:49):
But I'm glad to have heard it because I was
one of those guys on the ground in the infantry
in Afghanistan getting shot up every single day, saved I
can't even tell you how many times by helicopter pilots
(27:10):
just like you. And Okay, so you want to do something,
do an exercise with me real quick, go with go
with the flow on this amber. I want people to see.
I want to set a scenario and I want people
I want you to put people in your headspace. So
like say you're in Regional Command East RC East and
(27:31):
Afghanistan my platoon or there's a platoon out on the
border that's in contact, that's pinned down, and you get
that troops in contact report and you're in your Tactical
Operation center or in your bed. Your birds are on QRF.
Take us through from the moment that you get that call,
because you said it's like a light switch. Take us
(27:52):
through that moment when you get that call, to every
step of the way to your bird. And I want
people to see the level of proficiency. You talked about
it a little bit already, but the level of proficiency
and how you have it down to a battle drill
when you handle those types of situations.
Speaker 1 (28:10):
So immediately you get the call. Usually for us, we
were always in the air because you always, like we
did twenty four hour coverage, so there was always a
team in the air, and that's the team they called first,
unless they were just way far away. So say we
were the team that was in there, the pilot immediately
pushes forward on the cyclic and pulls up on the
collective which means max power, max airspeed, and you just
(28:32):
head in the direction. All you know is they may say, hey,
Corngall River Valley, there's a troops in contact. You know,
two Kia six wounded Metavax called still active tick Grid coming.
So we know just from being in the being in
that AO where that vicinity is. So we just immediately
(28:55):
start flying as fast as we possibly can to A
and All.
Speaker 2 (29:01):
And by the way, you don't know, you have no
idea what you're flying into. You just get a baseline report, who, where, when.
Speaker 1 (29:06):
And why go yep yep. If that sometimes we don't
even have that, We get that when we're like super close.
Sometimes you get there and you don't have much information,
which makes it very difficult. Or you have, you know,
guys on the ground who they're they're people laying next
to them are shot and they're trying to keep people alive.
They're trying to talk to Ariel, they're trying to talk
(29:28):
to the weapon the Scout Weapons team, which is us,
and get them the proper get grid so we can
then if it's at night, like lays the target, blow
them up. And then sometimes we have to observe for artillery.
If they call it an artillery mission, we'll stand to
the side. So you have artillery flying through the air
(29:48):
and we're flying there as well. You have the METAVAC
coming in and it is like a non stop activity
and and you just do the best you can with
the information that you have. And then once you start
putting like rounds down on targets, sometimes things calm down.
(30:13):
Sometimes they don't, and so it just kind of depends
what the enemy in Afghanistan was very willing to fight,
even sometimes when helicopters were on station. And so it
was like that's why I say, like in Iraq, it
was my experiences were more like okay, once you laid
down fire, it was like, okay, it might get kind
(30:34):
of quiet. But in Afghanistan, some like they were ready
to fight and keep going, and it was it was
much harder terrain. In Afghanistan. They hid in the mountains.
There was like boulder sized rocks that were the side
of cars, and they learned, they started to learn our TTPs,
our tactics, techniques and procedures for US as aerial platforms,
and they knew that they could you know, come out
(30:57):
when we were on our outbound racetrack pattern before after
shooting and then jump back behind the rocks again, which
were which were great you know, like protectors for them.
And so it was we did what we could with
the information and entering availability that we had.
Speaker 2 (31:19):
I remember I used to come back from moments like that,
you know, haven't been been bailed out by you know,
helicopter air assets, come back from a troops in contact
and like you know, your adrenaline flows. It's It's crazy
how your adrenaline flows in moments like that, And I'm
sure it was like that for you and the birds
(31:40):
racing to troops in contact, trying to save the day.
You get back from those missions, How did you mentally reset?
Because I feel like there were times I'd come back
from missions and I'd you know, you go through your
priorities of work and make sure your trucks are refilled
with fuel and ammunition, and your weapons are cleaned, and
(32:04):
then you know your men eat. What was that like
for you? How did you mentally reset? Because you go
you're flying, I mean, what's the air speed of a
Kiowa Warrior helicopter pilot, and you're talking about the chaos
over top of troops in contact. You don't want to
shoot friendly troops. You've got artillery sometimes coming in, You've
(32:25):
got mortars coming in. You don't want to get hit
with a mortar. You don't want to get hit with artillery.
And then sometimes you have close air support, which are
a tens and in some of the worst cases like
a strategical answer, and you don't want to be caught
in the middle of any of that. So God forbid.
So somehow you, by the grace of God, you survive
all that, you find yourself back on the base. How
do you mentally decompress from that?
Speaker 1 (32:48):
So for me, I really didn't decompress during that year
that I was there. I like I almost couldn't because
you go out the next day and you do the
exact same thing, and so you kind of have to
keep your head in the game. And I think that's
(33:08):
why it's so taxing and so stressful, like compounded stress
is because you don't ever get that let down while
you're in it, because you need to keep that stress
level so high in order for you to keep your
head in the game to be able to be completely
efficient and effective at your mission and flying the helicopter,
(33:29):
and you can't let emotions and what if scenarios like
enter your mind. Those definitely came after when you come
home from deployments like back to America. Yeah, then it's
like flooded with like how the hell did I survive
(33:49):
that specific situation? Like I should not. I should not
have survived it, Like, by the grace of God, I
am here today. But there are there are instances, like
too many to count where I'm like, how did I
survive that and so, but you can't think of that
either in the moment when you come back from the mission.
(34:11):
It's it's just at least that's how I handled it.
I didn't let my mind go to that place until
I came back from the deployment, like in the moment
in Afghanistan or in Iraq. It was a fate I
had accepted for anything that was going to happen in country.
It was a fate that I accepted for being there
(34:32):
as part of my job and part of my mission.
And I just didn't let myself think about it or
dwell on it. And it was like, Yep, going to
wake up tomorrow and do the exact same thing. You
talk about a fate, help out guys just like you did.
Speaker 2 (34:45):
Do you talk about a fate you accepted? Did you
accept at a certain level that you that you could
very well die and you just let go. You don't care,
and obviously you want to make it home alive.
Speaker 1 (34:55):
Yeah. I think that you know that because I had
so many I had. I had so many people in
my troop, like small troop that I know throughout my years,
had gotten killed in helicopter crashes, in combat, like it
was like a fact of life. And it was like
(35:16):
I remember when my friend Mike Slabonik, who's the sew
before he was killed in Afghanistan. He was shot in
his thigh and bled out and was killed on actually
nine to eleventh, two thousand and eight. And I remember
I was he was in my troop. He was my
instructor pilot from the very first. I deployed with him twice,
(35:39):
flown with him. Taught me so much about flying. And
I remember because it had happened so many times. You
know the look on a person's face when they walk
into a room to tell you. And I remember when
my my friend and colleague and pilot came to tell me.
I looked on her face and I said, who is it?
(36:01):
She didn't say anything. I just knew that someone had died.
I didn't know who, and uh, I was just like,
who is it? And then I found out was Mike.
Speaker 2 (36:14):
But how did you handle that?
Speaker 1 (36:18):
That was rough for me, that it so so we
just talked about We just talked about how you handle
knowing you could die in combat. And I think that
was kind of the exception when I said I didn't
(36:42):
think about it in theater but when Mike got killed,
it brought me back to reality and brought me back
how like every day you make it home from a
mission is a gift, and like how fragile life is,
and just how unfair it was that he didn't make
(37:06):
it home. You know, wife, kids, great American, loved this country,
loved serving and flying, and so it was. It was
hard even after like all the people who I also
knew had been killed. It was it was. It never
(37:28):
gets any easier. I would say, how.
Speaker 2 (37:32):
Has how have these experiences amber shaped your perspective on
how you live your life today?
Speaker 1 (37:43):
Everything, all of those experiences have formed who I have,
who I am today, and it's completely changed my perspective
of war, of national security, of foreign policy, of at
a at a more national political level has completely And
(38:08):
also I think from my time serving in the Pentagon
and seeing it more from an executive Pentagon level and
then contrast to me as more of an operations tactical
level as my time as a Kiowa pilot. Uh. And
so that's completely changed my perspective on life and how
I live my life, my priorities of what I think
(38:32):
is important, and I'm so incredibly grateful for my service.
I it gave me so much. It was it was hard.
I almost did it for you know, over seven and
a half years of my life, but it gave me
(38:53):
so much in terms of life lessons and learning who
I was and what I was capable of and and
how I would handle situations and so everything who I
am today is because of my experiences in the military.
Speaker 2 (39:15):
Do you think when you talk about how your service
has shaped your perspective on geopolitics?
Speaker 1 (39:23):
In war?
Speaker 2 (39:27):
You've always been someone. You fought for this country in Afghanistan,
Iraq on multiple battlefield as you said you did seven
plus years. It's so important amber for people like you
to come back and stay involved in the dialogue and
(39:47):
direction of this country. The role of you know, the
elder warrior in society's past, and that yes, we send
our men and women to fight for our country. They
experience haring and sometimes horrifying things in service to the country,
and instead of coming home and detaching, we need those
(40:11):
people to come back and stay involved to help educate
our policymakers on what war is like. And you've done that.
Where of all the horrible things that you've experienced, I'm
sure your service is braided with terrible experiences and the
best experiences in life. But where has that motivation come
(40:35):
from inside of you to stay in the fight for
this country.
Speaker 1 (40:42):
I will tell you that I think top level leadership
are in the military are a big part of today's
problem with the military, and unfortunately, their voice in society
is what matters. The reason I choose to stay involved
and be very vocal on some very unpopular issues that
(41:06):
a lot of people don't agree with me on is
because I think that it's important to have voices out
there that don't have stars on their shoulders, people who
have fought in these wars, that some of their decisions
place people in these positions. Those people who have been
(41:26):
there at that lower operational level, tactical level, and have
those experiences and understand that what briefs well on a
fancy little PowerPoint presentation in a skiff in the Pentagon
or at the White House doesn't always equate to what's
(41:48):
needed on the battlefield to achieve mission success. And so
I don't feel that the tactical level soldier is always
best represented because in today's military, once you get that
star on your shoulder, a lot of people aren't gonna
like that. I have to say this, but they are politicians.
(42:10):
You are then a politician that is serving a higher
political being. It's no longer about the guys on the ground,
and I take issue with that. It's not okay. It's
destroying our military and we see it in the recruitment
numbers that are coming out. It's only gonna get worse,
(42:31):
and so I want to make sure that people know
the truth and that military leadership is a significant like also,
you know, executive and congressional legislative leadership is as well.
They hold some of the blame with the budget and
all of that, but it's they are a big part
(42:53):
of the problem. And I think for so long in
our country no one felt like they could speak out
about jenn Les. It was like, oh, you're a general,
You're untouchable, and that should be the exact opposite. You
want the responsibilities that come with being a general, then
guess what you deserve to be critiqued for the decisions
that you make. But sadly, there is no accountability for
(43:18):
about above the lieutenant colonel rank. It's like once you
make it past lieutenant colonel. Except very few instances in
the Navy, for some reason. In the Navy, they still
choose to hold some of their vessel commanders responsible for
things that happen with them. But across the military, as
a generalization, senior military leaders are no longer held accountable
(43:42):
and that is a significant, significant problem for the future
of our nation and our national security and then an
effective military.
Speaker 2 (43:54):
Amber I totally agree. Can I give you my perspective
on this?
Speaker 1 (43:59):
Absolutely?
Speaker 2 (44:00):
People like you know so, I've served just over six years,
almost seven years in the military. I went into the
military after nine to eleven, just like you saying, I
wanted to make it a career. And then I went
to airborne school, went to ranger school, went to every cool,
sexy school that the military had to offer, and I
(44:21):
found myself boots on the ground in eastern Afghanistan in
direct combat with an enemy for sixteen straight months. And
first firefight I came back. It was exhilarating. And then
the second, third, fourth, fifth, sixth, I was like, Okay,
this sucks. I can't do this. I can't do this
for a career. And I came home. I came home.
(44:43):
I became you know. I I remember like my U
came home in my unit, like nine months later, was
supposed to go back to Afghanistan and I went into
my commander's office and I said, you know, Sir, I
can't do this. I can't I can't lead troops effectively
anymore because I'm home now. I'm emotionally compromised. You talked
about that emotional state that you have to get in
(45:05):
and combat to be able to survive and thrive and lead.
I was out of it. Amber I was out of it.
And I rather than put my soldiers at risk and
say like and pretend like there wasn't an issue, I
went and told my commander I can't do it anymore.
And that was in the process of being medically retired,
having been wounded in combat and all that. But during
(45:28):
that time of my medical retirement, I did a lot
of watching other leaders officers in the military, and what
I saw is that there are officers that play the
game and officers who don't. And it's typically the officers
who don't see heavy combat that end up staying in
(45:51):
because they don't have the same sort of experiences that
I had on the battlefield and they think, oh, this
isn't that bad, Well, maybe stay on to be a
captain a major, lieutenant colonel. And what you end up
have happening is is you have in units all across
the military, people who didn't see the heaviest combat, or
didn't didn't play at the highest operational tempo, end up
(46:14):
climbing the ladder. And what I saw among that demographic
where men and women who are willing to play the game,
leaders who were only concerned with their bow and rarely
their wake. And most of those people never saw sustained
heavy combat or high operational tempo like you. And what
(46:35):
you end up have happening is you have a bunch
of people with stars on their shoulders who have never
really seen the horrors of war up close and personal
for a sustained amount of time. And I liken it
to almost being, you know, calling yourself an artist, but
having never painted the painting in your life. Yet. These
are the people that are making life and death decisions
(46:58):
at this strategic level for our country and our men
and women in uniform. And we're talking when you talk
about making strategic decisions, we're talking about decisions that send
our people to war, which I believe America's sons and
daughters are the most precious natural resource it's a leader's job.
And I think that you'll probably agree with me. It's
(47:20):
we need to do everything that we can to protect
America's sons and daughters and shield them from sending them
into frivolous wars. And I think that's sort of why
we're in, why the military is today where it is.
Speaker 1 (47:37):
That's such a fantastic point. Like with your experiences transitioning
out of the military and what you saw, I do
think that when you said that our men and women
who are serving our nation's most viable assets, they one
hundred percent are And there is nothing that makes me
(48:00):
more furious than an American saying when you point out
the flaws of the Pentagon, and you point out the
flaws of the military and toxic leadership that exists, and
you know, the almost cultural stance at the top, which
is to appease politicians in Washington instead of setting up
the military to be the best. Down at the tactical
(48:25):
level is when people say, oh, well you well, you
signed up to serve the military people volunt all volunteer force,
so they just have to deal with it. They you know,
they knew what they were signing up for. And that
is a bunch of crap. People signed up to serve
our country because they believe in the freedoms and principles
(48:46):
that our nation was founding on founded on, and they
believe that it is worth protecting. They don't sign up
to join the military to have the poorest leaders that
exist and are not putting their wealth being in line
the way that it should be. You should not be
treated as can and fodder because you signed up to
(49:09):
serve our military, and that has a lot to do
with leadership and what they think that they can get
away with and their priorities, and so, yes, signing up
for war, you know that you could potentially have to
go to war give your life, and that's what people
know going into it. But it doesn't mean that they
should be put in positions that they had that are
(49:34):
wrong for the nation, that are not smart foreign policy
or national security decisions. And sadly that's what we see today.
That's exactly what we saw with Afghanistan, where there was
not a single general from about summer of twenty eleven
after osamavan Laden was killed up until the withdrawal that
could not articulate a mission or an in state for Afghanistan.
(49:58):
So they knew they and they continued to send people
into harm's way for a fight that they couldn't articulate.
Speaker 2 (50:05):
I mean, I totally totally listen. I totally agree. And
I was going to ask you about the fall of
Afghanistan and how that affected you, you know, emotionally, mentally, physically.
I remember when I saw those images of what it
(50:26):
looked like Saigon two point zero and the chinel helicopters
on top of the embassies in Afghanistan, and just the
sheer just how fast Afghanistan collapsed in on itself like
a dying star. And our politicians who sent us into
that war for twenty plus years, like as you mentioned,
(50:47):
no mission, no end state, and you had these generals
who every year the issue they report on Afghanistan in January,
and every year they say the mission is on track,
the Afghan National Armies on track, the Afghan National Police
are on track, Afghan Border Police are good to go.
But you and I, having been in that country, we
knew that that wasn't true. Yet they issued those reports anyway,
(51:08):
And in the lead up to the fall of Afghanistan,
you could see the writing on the wall. You could
see that our political leaders, our military leaders had They
hadn't given one thought to what a drawdown in peaceful
end state or peaceful withdrawal from Afghanistan looked like, and
it ended up squandering what I believe. I mean obviously
(51:30):
like having been there, I would go back and serve
there again. We did lots of great things there. We
built wells in villages and did lots of humanitarian assistants
and taught kids to read and you know, enabled young
little girls to go get an education. I'm proud of
my service in Afghanistan. I'm sure that you are too,
But it doesn't mean that I'm not pissed off that
(51:51):
they squandered every bit of that. Because you're seeing Afghanistan,
it's like the funniest thing in the world. Amber where
you had the administration in Jensaki, who is then the
White House Press Secretary, saying that the Taliban were going
to now now embrace women's rights and allow them to
go to school. Was there any part of you that
(52:14):
believed that at all? And give me a sense, give
us a sense of how you process the fall of
Afghanistan and what it was like for you.
Speaker 1 (52:25):
All politics is today is PR campaign after PR campaign,
after pr campaign, and Afghanistan was no different. Like you said,
they were trying to sell to the public that the
Taliban was going to be great for Afghanistan and they
were going to be okay with women's rights and girls
going to school, and anyone with half of a brain
saw right through that, especially veterans who had served there.
(52:50):
And that's why I think it was so difficult. The
withdrawal was so difficult, difficult for so many Afghanistan veterans.
For me, the writing was on the wall. I understood
from a political stance that the war in Afghanistan was
never going to change. It was going to be the
same bureaucracy, the same hearings at Congress, the same throw
(53:13):
the money at the problem, no results, no accountability, no
ability to track the money that we are sending, the
fifty billion dollars a year that we're sending over there,
and so year after year after year, it was very
clear to me that there was no coherent strategy, if
there was one at all, towards any sort of a
(53:33):
in state that would be beneficial. So it was we
can continue to spend money, we can continue to see
our American soldiers die in Afghanistan, or we can start
the process of ending this war. So I was for
(53:55):
the end of the war. What I was not for
was the withdrawal. The way that it happened, it could
not have been more like the world side. It could
not have been more of a disaster, more chaotic, more unplanned,
and it really showed a lot of our vulnerabilities, I
think from a national security perspective, with how it unfolded,
(54:20):
both like in our intelligence and you know, the Taliban
has no capabilities to take Kabul, the Afghan Army is
able to hold Kaboul. You know, all of that information
that continued to come out from the IC and was
it wasn't just false, Like we didn't look back and
be like, oh yeah, they were a little off on
(54:40):
that one. It fell in the it fell in days,
and so it was just I think an example of
the IC doing their analysis, politicized analysis of like wanting
a specific outcome and then that's what gets briefed instead
of the reality on the ground. And so it was
(55:03):
very difficult for me to watch, actually a whole lot
more difficult than I thought it would be. It really
affected me seeing, you know, seeing the helicopters evacuate American
civilians off of the embassies, seeing what happened at the
airfield at Kia, seeing American veterans springing into actions, like
(55:29):
everybody on their phones twenty four to seven to try
to help the interpreters, interpreters and the other Afghans who
had helped Americans on the ground. And it was such
a helpless feeling because you're sitting over here in America.
You're like trying to, you know, communicate the best you can,
figure out a way, figure out which gates open right now,
(55:50):
versus you know, where the Taliban is like beating people
to death and all of that. So it was a
lot and it was really a surreal time, I am.
But what was more surreal was how quick it was
out of the news cycle once it was over.
Speaker 2 (56:07):
My gosh, Amber, you're so right, Oh my god, so
much there. I remember experiencing that I felt at a
very similar experience, and I remember thinking, my god, I
want to go back, get me over there. And at
the time I was, I was running for Senate at
(56:27):
the height of my Senate campaign, and I was this
close to suspending my campaign and hopping on like some civilian. Wow,
back and I did, you feel the same way. I
know that you did.
Speaker 1 (56:40):
I did, I absolutely did, and I did the best
I can. I was working with some special operations veterans
that were doing some sort of fantastic work behind the
scenes in terms of getting things done, and I'm grateful
for the work that I was able to do with them.
Of course, you always wish that you could you more,
(57:01):
which sort of leads to that like helpless feeling. But
it was like time was so short, and then the
State Department, you know, shut everybody down, like shut it.
At one point it was like nope, shut down and
there was no way in or out. And then it
was like, all right, let's move to Grand transportation, and
that became its own issues for the obvious reasons with
the Taliban and checkpoints, and it was just it was
(57:26):
unreal that the US government essentially did that to itself,
and where's the accountability, Sean. Are we going to have
that conversation, Like, I know, Congress just launched their investigation,
but which is great, which is great, We're going to
spend taxpair dollars on like millions of taxpair dollars on
(57:48):
an investigation. But are we going to say, I only
want an investigation if there's going to be some accountability,
because what are they going to do with this investigation?
Speaker 2 (57:59):
What It's a fair point, Amber, And I really let
me just let me just ask you this, how much
investigation do we really need to do?
Speaker 1 (58:09):
Exactly?
Speaker 2 (58:10):
We all saw what a horrific train wreck the withdrawal
of Afghanistan was like. Yet you're absolutely right, from Milly
on down, there hasn't been one single person, not one politician,
not not one single general, not one single military leader,
(58:31):
who's been held accountable for that debacle. And at some level,
I think there has to be accountability.
Speaker 1 (58:37):
There has to be accountability, and if generals and civilian leaders,
civilian sectefs, there needs to be public acknowledgment of their
failures and that their responsibility contributed to this. And it
has to be not political. It has to be completely
just factual. These decisions, these leadership decisions that were made
(59:01):
by these individuals, you know, failed the US military and
those were serving in the people of Afghanistan. It needs
to be that blunt. If they can't, you know, like
criminally financially hold them accountable, then their needs they need
to publicly be said, what the decisions that these people
(59:24):
made led and the consequences of their actions. But yeah,
the people who are still serving, it is like they
need to be removed from leadership leadership positions. But the
thing was is that in the military at the Pentagon,
and this isn't just the military, this is a government problem.
You fail up when you go on with the failed
(59:46):
decisions and you fall in line. Guess what, you keep
your mouth shut, you get promoted, you move up, you
speak out, you use common sense, you think critically. Guess
what you are now a threat? And you who are
going to be held accountable for telling the truth?
Speaker 2 (01:00:03):
I mean, we live in a society with a two
tiered justice system. And you know, if you look at
what's going on with Joe Biden and the scandal that
he's embroiled in with these classified documents, like in the
carelessness with which he handled them had and then you
look at the way the general these generals handled Afghanistan
and the carelessness with which they handled the whole of Afghanistan. No,
(01:00:28):
like no accountability for Afghanistan. Is there going to be
accountability for Joe Biden, who, by the way, is the
commander in chief of the United States military. We wouldn't
get that level of grace if if you and you
or I as tactical leaders made the same mistakes that
(01:00:50):
they did, we would be fired and put out of
the military in a second.
Speaker 1 (01:00:55):
Can you even imagine? First of all, no, I don't
think Joe Biden's going to be held accountaball. I don't
not for a second. I wasn't even surprised. I wasn't
even surprised when I heard about this, about the cost
by documents, I just was like, sounds about right. So
the Yeah, imagine a captain or maybe like an E five,
(01:01:20):
you know all the clearances, goes in a skiff, is
working on something, just takes this many documents, stuffs them
in his backpack and walks out. What would happen to
that guy?
Speaker 2 (01:01:35):
Yeah, absolutely right, Yes, absolutely right, And there'd be no
discussion about it.
Speaker 1 (01:01:40):
Yeah, no discussion. They would be like committing treason, a
threat to the United States government. So it's just like
you said, the two tier justice system, the political elites,
when you're on the right wrong the right side, how
you get treated, and how everybody looks the other way
(01:02:02):
for you versus everybody else. It's really on American and
I don't know how long you carry on like that
before people wake up to the reality and get very
angry about that about one standard being held to the
political elite and those on the right side and then
(01:02:25):
those everybody else.
Speaker 2 (01:02:26):
Well, you know, and now Amber, you have two kids
of your own. How old are you got a boy
and a girl? How old are they?
Speaker 1 (01:02:34):
You do? Four and too?
Speaker 2 (01:02:36):
Four and two? Yeah, So I tried to do a
little bit of math before the pro try to figure
out how old your kids were. So you're still in
the thick of it with your little ones, like where
they're probably waking up in the middle of the night.
And so you've made the transition from you know, running
combat missions in Afghanistan and a Kyo Warrior helicopter flying
into troops in contact of probably watching Doc mcstuffans and
(01:02:59):
knowing all the lyrics on all of those Disney those
Disney shows, which which is yeah, you Pepa Pig, which
is a journey in and of itself, an adventurous one
at that. But what do you would you want your
children joining the military because your oldest is four, So
in fourteen years that would go by like that in
(01:03:19):
fourteen years. So we talked about your parents and how
they were supportive of you joined the military during a
time of war, and how they clearly how I don't
know how either. I mean, I'm a parent with young
children as well. I have no idea how I would
react to a situation like that. With where the military
(01:03:41):
is today, where are you on that?
Speaker 1 (01:03:46):
The answer is a hard no, And that absolutely breaks
my heart to say that. But the military that I
served in I don't even recognize anymore. It doesn't exist.
And that's hard because I devoted a significant chunk of
my life to it and it did do so much
(01:04:06):
for me. It was extremely hard and challenging, and it
forced myself, you know, to to the to the red
line where you learn what you're capable of and your limits,
and it it learned. It brings out the best part
of you. And so I'm so grateful for my service,
(01:04:26):
and I'm sad that that type of a military, with
the military leadership that exists today isn't there anymore. And
that the positive things that I said that the military
does for you about character building and you know, working
with the most diverse group of people that is out
there and having one solid mission and your purpose. I
(01:04:50):
don't believe that that military and those experiences are there anymore.
I don't feel like it's military leadership would have the
best in tryst of my children serving. It took me,
you know, when I first started having these thoughts about
you know, this is real now, like my parents are
(01:05:12):
growing up in a household where their father is still
serving and has had an incredible military career. And then
you know, I obviously served combat veteran myself, so of
course they're going to hear about it and be so
interested in it. But that's going to be a really
hard conversation, and like I wish, I hope the military
(01:05:32):
gets back on track. It's why I'm so vocal and
passionate about this is the military needs to turn itself
around and get back to a mission focused organization rather
than a Washington, d c. Political agenda organization and really
a leadership institution. The United States used to be the
best like leadership government agency institution out there. West Point
(01:05:58):
used to be the number one hip school in the world.
Now they're teaching CRT. They used to teach critical thinking,
and now they're focused on other things. So it's just
like the military has lost its way and it needs
to get back on track if they want to fix
this recruiting and retention and morale crisis that the military
is in right now. I will tell you I have
(01:06:22):
been speaking with a lot of active duty military and
I have been asking them the same question. Not one
person has said they would recommend military service to their children.
That is terrifying because when I served out the Pentagon,
(01:06:43):
I worked on an initiative called Know Your Military, which
connects the American public that doesn't have much of a
connection to those who serve, and then connects them to
the military. It's part of bridging the civilian military divide.
And through our research, we found that the military had
really turned into a family business. People who have parents
(01:07:04):
who serve are so much more likely to serve than
those without military parents are without that direct connection to
the military. And now this trend in people who are
serving are not recommending to their children that they serve
in the military. Is like, we think recruitment is bad
this current generation, what's it going to look like in
(01:07:25):
the next generation? And people need to wake up to
the national security threat that that is when are like, like,
we have an all volunteer service right now, is it
always going to be like that.
Speaker 2 (01:07:40):
How do we get things back on the right track.
Speaker 1 (01:07:44):
We do. We start by fixing the general problem. And
the thing is is that it's not an easy fix.
It's going to have to be Congress in the executive brand.
It's working together, and what I just said doesn't actually
exist in real life. So I don't think there's going
(01:08:06):
to be much change. It would require both of them
focusing on leadership at the Pentagon and understanding that that
sort of legacy generals are the problem, are part of
the problem, and they've just become yes man, that's what's said.
(01:08:29):
The generals of World War Two no longer exist. Those
aren't the generals in the military today. And so that's
kind of step one. You know, root out the toxic leadership,
the people who are you know, pushing these woke agendas
onto the military, over readiness, over mission success. And that's
(01:08:53):
more on the political leadership side that we see with
the sect deaf and his sort of priorities for the
US military. That so there's a lot to do, but
with the way the military is treating those who are
currently serving, it's having a serious effect. We saw what
(01:09:13):
the COVID mandate did It really was damaging to a
lot of people serving who were forced into a corner
and completely told that their principles didn't matter. So they
were told to basically, you know, the the army values
(01:09:35):
that you learn from day one. They were essentially said to, like, Nope,
get rid of those and just do what we tell
you to. Don't stand by your values anymore.
Speaker 2 (01:09:46):
It's terrifying. It sounds like it. I mean, the research
that you conducted at the Pentagon and the idea that
the military is a family business. People who have parents
who serve are more likely to serve themselves. What do
you do when your parents are like, na, ceasefire on that, kiddo,
Like it's not a good time to join. Raises very
(01:10:09):
serious questions of whether or not you can even have
an all volunteer force in five or ten years from now.
And man, I don't know, amber you're a warrior. I
want to be respectful of your time. How so, how
how has being an I want to talk about you now,
(01:10:32):
How has being a warrior in a helicopter pilot shaped
who you've become as a mom?
Speaker 1 (01:10:43):
I guess it's made me more critical and focused on
their future. And some of the things they are going
to be up against in this world. I know, like
I want, I do get very concerned about the direction
of this country and the divisiveness and how you're no
(01:11:05):
longer to think critically or have a voice of your
own without having to worry about going against the mainstream
and the consequences that come with it. But like I said,
I grew up loving America, loving the freedoms that I
got to enjoy every day growing up, and I want
(01:11:26):
to ensure that my children get to experience that level
of freedom, that level of opportunity, and the joys that
come with all of that. So it is very important
to me that I continue to fight that fight in
my own way by helping preserve the America that I
(01:11:49):
know in love and that I fought to protect and
two wars for. And I can only hope that more
Americans are waking up. I think if there is one
silver lining to the disaster of the COVID nineteen response
is that I think it did wake up some sleeping
(01:12:10):
Americans to big government power and control and utilizing fear
as a way to get that power and control. And
so I do think that I hope that many Americans
woke up to some of the tyranny that we are
now seeing on our own doorsteps, which is terrifying and
(01:12:34):
it happened very quickly. But I think it's important to
find your voice, speak out about it.
Speaker 2 (01:12:42):
I totally agree, find your voice, speak out about it,
take a stand, think critically, think for yourself. Amber. This
country is so lucky and blessed to have people like
you in it. And thank you for coming on today.
Thank you for your perspective, and thank you for joining
me on Battleground.
Speaker 1 (01:13:03):
Can I say, Mamartha, of course you can. I just
want to say, Sean number one. I'm so excited for
this podcast because you're like made for it, and also
so back in the day. You were my biggest advocate
for getting my book off the ground, for telling me
that I have a story, for helping me find my voice,
(01:13:24):
and being such a big supporter of my book with
everything that I needed. And I just can't thank you
enough for being such an awesome person friend American. You're
the real deal and America needs you. I know you're
going to stay in the fight.
Speaker 2 (01:13:41):
Thanks Amber, I really appreciate that. Thank you for saying
that you got it.
Speaker 1 (01:13:46):
Thanks for having me on Sean.
Speaker 2 (01:13:48):
All right, everybody, that's a wrap. I hope you enjoyed
my conversation with Amber. If you did, be sure to
subscribe wherever you listen to podcasts and and subscribe to
my YouTube channel for more exclusive content. We need your help.
This is a show for you. It cuts through all
(01:14:10):
of the bs that is wholly dedicated to preserving the
legacy of those who served and celebrating the greatest country
on the face of the planet, the United States of America.
Join us in that journey. We need you. If you
like the podcast, send me an email, shoot me a
message on social media. You know that I read them
and that I try to respond to everything and leave
(01:14:31):
a review because that helps us too. And as always,
God bless you all, and God bless this incredible country
that we live in. Take care
Speaker 1 (01:15:01):
Us
Recording, You're about to enter the arena.
Speaker 2 (00:07):
And join the battle to save America with your host,
Sean Parnell. There were many times in Afghanistan when I
contemplated life and death. In fact, as my combat deployment
wore on, I thought about it more and more, especially
(00:27):
in those quiet moments just back from a mission cycle
in my hooge, by myself alone with my thoughts. I
survived today. Will I survive tomorrow? If you focus on
that question too much, will I survive tomorrow? It will
drive you crazy. I've seen men become so obsessed with
(00:49):
it that it handicaps your ability to not just operate
effectively in the field, but everything. It colors how you think.
Pervasive egg anxiety and fear take over. It's utterly paralyzing.
So many of us learned to stop asking it all together.
In fact, many of us had to convince ourselves that
(01:12):
we were dead already, that it was only a matter
of time and a question of how it would happen.
When this reality set in, we functioned better in combat.
Fear didn't color our decisions. There was no hesitation. The
only thing that mattered was the man to your left
and right and doing everything you could to make it
(01:35):
back to the base home alive and win the day.
About six months into my tour, I started thinking a
lot about legacy. What would happen if I die? How
would my family and friends react. They'd be sad for
a time, sure, but after a while would they forget
(01:56):
about me? Would they miss me? I was killed in action.
I had no kids to carry on without me to
help keep my memory alive. Death seemed so final, and
I will admit that that prospect scared the hell out
of me. Then I started thinking about how many thousands
(02:19):
of Americans had these same exact thoughts as me. Those
who came before me who served on hundreds of battlefields
all over the world in defense of freedom, Those men
and women who were forever changed by their experience of
war who then had to somehow come home and survive
(02:40):
and make something of themselves. Or those Americans who never
made it home. God rest their souls. There were so
many times I tried to process the enormity of this,
both in Afghanistan and after I came home. I have
to say I still think about it. The legacy of
(03:01):
those who came before me and in my generation, the
sacrifices those men and women made on the altar of
freedom for us and the idea that we truly stand
on the shoulders of giants, and we should remember them
in that great sacrifice. We should do everything we can
(03:23):
to pass on their legacy to the next generation as
well as to ensure that their memory lives on forever.
And my next guest is someone who understands this very
very well, because this legacy is in her blood. Her
grandfather was a pilot in World War Two. Her father
(03:46):
was in the eighty second Airborne Infantry and as a pilot.
Her mother is a pilot. She's one of three sisters,
all of whom served and are pilots. Her name is
Amber Smith. Amber is a Kiowa Warrior helicopter pilot who
served in Iraq and Afghanistan at the height of the
Wars and is the best selling author of the book
(04:06):
Danger Close. More recently, she served in the Pentagon as
Under Secretary of Defense for public Outreach. She is a
warrior through and through in one hell of an American.
Ladies and gentlemen, I hope you enjoy our conversation Amber Smith.
(04:29):
Welcome to Battleground. Thank you so much for joining me.
Speaker 1 (04:33):
Thank you so much for having me. It's so great
to be on with you again.
Speaker 2 (04:37):
Yeah, this is crazy. We were just talking about prior
to going to recording, about how we've known each other
for ten years. Isn't that crazy?
Speaker 1 (04:47):
It's crazy that has been that long. That's why I
was saying, like again, like I feel like we've spoke together,
we've done media together, We've done like all sorts of
different advocacy work together, and so so yeah, be on
your podcast now, which I'm so excited that you have launched.
It's just awesome to be on with you.
Speaker 2 (05:03):
Yeah, this is kind of crazy. We all have have
had sort of an insane journey over the last ten
years to get to this point. And I was thinking
about you in prep for this interview because I do know,
as we talked about, I have known you for ten years,
and you're a pretty incredible person. You know, you're competitive,
(05:24):
you're driven. You were a gymnast and then you were
a cheerleader, and then you made the transition to attack
helicopter pilot for the military and then a best selling author.
But you have this dog, this bulldog named Kaiowa, who
every picture that you take of this dog looks like
(05:44):
it can barely breathe on its own, So it sort
of turns the whole narrative of people buy dogs. People
buy dogs like they are on their head.
Speaker 1 (05:56):
Well, I think there's some truth to the she can
barely breathe part of it. And if you hear some snoring,
that's probably because she's laying down right next to me.
But she's awesome. She's a bulldog. She's the like laziest
breed out there. So there's I want to say that
there's not much work. But for any bulldog owner you
will know that, like, bulldogs are very high maintenance, especially
(06:18):
for how lazy they are. But yeah, she got the
name Kaiowa obviously because I used to fly Kaiwa's in
the Army and I had to keep the legacy going
because I got her the same year that the Army
decommissioned the Kiowa.
Speaker 2 (06:32):
So so I want to talk about legacies here in
a second. But how do you, as a competitive driven
person get a dog that's so lazy.
Speaker 1 (06:42):
So I lived in Washington, D C. When I first
got the dog, and I was like, I need you know.
I was actually working at the Pentagon when I got her,
and I was like I need a dog that is
going to be okay with you know, because when you
work in the Pentagon, you work very long hours. And
I was like, I need a dog that is going
to be okay with getting loss of sleep, and bulldog
(07:06):
fits exactly what I was looking for.
Speaker 2 (07:10):
Well, Kai, it's awesome though.
Speaker 1 (07:12):
Bulldogs are so much work, but they're such like loyal, loving,
stubborn dogs.
Speaker 2 (07:19):
Well, you talked about legacy and what I found remarkable
because I read You've got this book out it's called
Danger Close, and I read that book a long time ago,
and one of the things that struck me very early
on in reading that book is that you come from
a family of pilots. I think it's remarkable, So correct
(07:41):
me if I'm wrong. You had a grandfather that flew
in World War Two?
Speaker 1 (07:45):
Right, I do. My grandfather he flew in the Army
Air Corps in World War Two. He flew the aerial
routes between Northern Africa in Europe, and he also flew
some super early on helicopter prototypes. After the war, he
went on to fly for the airlines. But that's really
(08:08):
where the aviation bug began in my family. So yeah,
he kind of started it all.
Speaker 2 (08:17):
So you had a grandfather who is a pilot. Your
mom is also a pilot, right.
Speaker 1 (08:24):
Your dad, my dad was a pilot for a PanAm
My mom she was a pilot. She was a civilian pilot.
Women were still very rare back in the sixties when
she was flying sixties and then in the seventies, and
she got all of her ratings up to CF double
I Certified Flight Instructor for Instruments and she loved it
(08:45):
as well. It was like a hobby of hers that
she would do whenever she could save up the money
to afford the flight hours, because aviation is a very
expensive hobby. And then, I mean, it kind of comes
with no surprise that they raised three we wanted to
become pilots ourselves. We grew up around it. We always
talked about aviation growing up. It was like just natural conversation.
(09:09):
My dad would talk to us about how important airspeed is.
He would talk to us about learning how to read
a sectional, and we're talking at like a young age,
and we as kids, like like some people go camping
with their parents. Like we learned about every aspect of
aviation and from like you know, from when we could
talk up until we were getting our aviation licenses. So
(09:34):
I think that had the biggest impact on us in
terms of moving forward and pursuing aviation.
Speaker 2 (09:40):
So clearly, so clearly there was a legacy of aviators
of pilots in your family. Were you thinking about that
legacy when you joined the military in two thousand and one.
Speaker 1 (09:57):
You know, I don't think I thought of it as
a legacy. I thought how amazing it was that I
got to experience something that people had previous, like through
generations of my family had got to experience. I know,
I got to experience it completely different. My dad was
in the airborne infantry in the eighty second, so like
my experience in aviation was much different than his infantry
(10:21):
experience in the sixties. So, but also my mom. I know,
my mom, like I told you, she was very interested
in aviation. And she told me when I started to
go down the path of after nine to eleven and
being like I think, I know now how I can
apply my patriotism, my love of country and and love
(10:44):
of aviation and put it all together and become a
helicopter pilot. And so when I started pursuing that, my mom,
I remember her saying just how amazing she thought it
was that her three daughters had the opportunity to pursue this,
because she didn't have that opportunity when she was interested
(11:05):
in aviation. And she just thought it was remarkable and
very cool that we were getting to do this. And
so I remember that, and I sort of never took
that opportunity for granted, and I appreciated that I was
where I was in life where I was able to
become a helicopter pilot because it was still fairly new.
Speaker 2 (11:28):
Yeah, So was it nine to eleven that was the
catalyst for you to join?
Speaker 1 (11:33):
It was I had loved the military because growing up,
like I said, with my dad's stories of serving in
the army and then aviation, I never knew for the
military was something that sounded cool and would be amazing
if I ever pulled the trigger and decided to go
for But it was nine to eleven that was like,
(11:55):
all right, I want to serve my country. I don't
want to wait. You know, I was in college when
it happened, and I was like, I don't want to
wait any longer. I feel like it's crystal clear for
me now. I want to serve my country, and I
feel like the best way that I can do that
is through my love of aviation and my experience with aviation,
and that's the proper path for me.
Speaker 2 (12:17):
But you had to know. You had to know Amber
that well, first of all, talk about nine. Let's talk
about nine to eleven for a second. If you lived
through that, I feel like it affected you to the
very core of who you are as a person, and
the very core you know. I can even to this day.
I mean, oh gosh, like over twenty years ago, I
(12:40):
could tell you exactly where I was, what I was doing,
what I had for dinner the night before and breakfast
that morning, what all my roommates in college were doing.
And I remember everything every second of that day. And
I think it's because nine to eleven sort of engages
engaged you all of your senses, but also on a
very deep seated emotional level. And Amber, you had to
(13:03):
know that when you when you volunteer to serve this
country after nine to eleven, and you were going into
you wanted to be an aviator, So you wanted to
I guess you wanted to join the army, and that
meant that you were probably going to fly rotary wing helicopters.
You had to know that you were going to be
going to combat in some way, shape or form, right,
(13:24):
I did.
Speaker 1 (13:25):
And I think it was nine to eleven for me.
It was the first time that I realized that the
freedoms that we love and enjoy every single day are
trying to be taken from us. You know, those freedoms
are threats to a lot of groups and adversaries around
the world. And so in my very early adult age,
(13:46):
it was the first time that I had that aha
moment of like, this can be taken away. This isn't
something we should be taken for granted, as we saw
with what happened for nine to eleven, and I wanted
to give back to the country that had given me
all of that. And I knew that becoming a helicopter
pilot in the Army, I would likely, you know, head
(14:08):
to war sooner or later, and I did. I ended
up actually going to boot camp two thousand and three
and then straight from there into flight school at Fort Rocker, Alabama,
and then I got Fort Campbell, Kentucky, the Hunter and
First Airborne Division for my first duty station, and I
(14:32):
was deploying within the year of me being there to Iraq.
Speaker 2 (14:36):
What's remarkable about that is that if you think back
at that time, so you and I are essentially the
same age, had such a similar experience and reason for
why we joined the military back then. Did you have
any conversation with your parents after nine to eleven when
(14:56):
you made that decision.
Speaker 1 (14:59):
So I think I have an extremely rare sort of
experience with my parents with joining the military, because I
know so many people that I've talked to had the
exact opposite of what I did. My parents were so
unbelievably supportive. My dad, from serving himself, understood and knew
exactly what the military did for an individual and how
(15:22):
much it helped you grow and grow up and become
an adult, and sort of the lessons that you learn
while you're in the military and about other people and
the camaraderie and what it actually means to serve, to
serve something greater than yourself and be a part of
that brotherhood, in that sisterhood. So they knew. My parents knew,
(15:43):
and they were very supportive. I think the whole war
aspect of it was nerve racking to them because that
was new and obviously a child like I now that
I'm a parent myself, Like, I can't even imagine what
that is like. But in terms of military service and
wanting to go fly in the military and serve my country,
I could not have had a better support structure for
(16:06):
them being proud and like happy that I was choosing
that path.
Speaker 2 (16:14):
They had to be superheroes because you know, you said,
you're a mother now and I'm a father, and yeah,
I can't imagine having those conversations with my children knowing
that they're going to be going into the fight, you know,
wanting to volunteer for the military in a time of war.
But what's kind of unbelievable about your circumstance and unique
(16:36):
to you is that you weren't the only one. You
had two sisters that also joined the military and found
themselves serving in a time of war. Am I right
about this as well?
Speaker 1 (16:47):
You're right. My older sister, Kelly, she was a C
one thirty pilot for the California inter National Guard multiple deployments.
I actually got to spend some time with her in Afghanistan,
which was crazy.
Speaker 2 (17:01):
That's crazy, it's crazy crazy. I mean, for your parents
to have to bear that birden of three first of
all women in the military in a post nine to
eleven world in Iraq, and I get two wars raging,
two wars raging at the same time. Did you ever ask?
Speaker 1 (17:20):
So in two thousand and eight they had twice two
daughters in the same combat zone. So I got to
see Kelly in two thousand and eight, I was in Afghanistan.
I was in RC East in Jalalabad, and then and
she was based out of Bagram and she got to
fly into Jalalabad and we got to see each other there.
(17:44):
And then I got to see her up in Bagram
a couple of times. And then at the end of
my deployment the end of two thousand and eight, my
sister Lacey, we did the RIPTOA with her unit, and
so she you know, her unit was replacing ours, and
so we had about like a ten overlap, I want
to say, and it was crazy, Like I remember that
that was really hard for me because when Kelly left,
(18:09):
she said goodbye to me so to speak, like I
was still in country and she was leaving. And when
Lacey was there, she was a helicopter she was a
black Hawk helicopter pilot in the Hunter first as well,
and Obviously I could relate more to her mission because
I was a helicopter pilot as well, and I sort
of knew what the year had been like for me
(18:29):
and some of the danger that exists as a helicopter
pilot in Afghanistan, And so I was like, it was
very hard for me to say goodbye to her, knowing
that I was leaving her there for an entire year
and what she could potentially face. So it was amazing
to see both of them in country, but it was
also like, it was crazy to leave my sister there.
Speaker 2 (18:53):
How did you do it?
Speaker 1 (18:53):
When I came home?
Speaker 2 (18:54):
How did you say goodbye to her?
Speaker 1 (18:56):
It was really rough. She came, she she came to
like the holding area for us to get onto the plane,
like our final departure before they lock you down. She
like came to me there, and it was you know,
I tried to give her the big sister pep talk
about like you get in this situation, like do this,
(19:18):
do this, do this, and yeah, it was just like
how do you put it into words to like leave
a family member behind in a combat zone. That is
like for me, Afghanistan was a much harder deployment than
Iraq was and I knew that that she was going
into that, and she was an RC East as well,
so it was tough. It was. It was tough.
Speaker 2 (19:41):
Yeah, I was I know what it's like. Yeah, well listen,
I know what it's like. And yeah, you're leaving a
family member there. You know how dangerous it is. And
it sounded like you said she made it back.
Speaker 1 (20:01):
She did. I was grateful, but I know it was
a rough deployment, as it was for most people during
that time frame. You know, it's it's combat. It sucks,
you see some things that it's war, war as war
as hell, and so yeah, it was a rough deployment
(20:22):
for everybody. And but like I said, like so grateful,
she came back safe and sound, and I'm really proud
of her.
Speaker 2 (20:36):
Do you ever talk about your experiences in Afghanistan or
in combat together.
Speaker 1 (20:42):
So when she came home from Afghanistan, we kind of
definitely had that connection. And I know there were some
very she did. Some of her mission was like a
METAVAC pilot as well, and so it's different than what
(21:09):
we did as Kiowa pilots. So we got to talk
through all of that, and I do think it was
helpful to have sort of relatable experiences where usually the
people that you talk about are people who have you
know in your unit, who have been there, done that,
shared experiences, and you guys are able to sort of
like laugh, cry, like talk about all the bs and
(21:32):
tell the war stories together. But it was nice to
be able to be able to do that with my sister,
and I think it was helpful for both of us.
Speaker 2 (21:41):
Do you think the war, Well, I know the answer
to this question already, because it's inevitable. If you experienced war,
doesn't matter if you're flying one hundred de feet above
it or your boots on the ground. It does change
you in some deeper and profound ways. Have you and
your sister recognized any of the changes in yourselves?
Speaker 1 (22:04):
Well, I'm not sure about my sister. For me, you know,
when I first came back, I was like, oh, I fine, whatever,
like didn't give much thought to it. It wasn't until
I transferred out of the military where I was like,
you operate at such a high stress level as a
(22:24):
Kiowa pilot when you and this is just like take
away combat. Takeaway combat, You're flying a small squarely aircraft
with a fifty cal machine gun, a rocket pod seven
high explosive rockets, you can carry hellfire missiles. You've got
a thermal imaging site system, and you have five radios
(22:46):
to talk on, listen to all at the same with
all different information, everybody talking into your ear. You've got
your weapons systems, you've got your nav system. You have
to fly a helicopter, make sure that you and your
co pilot are on top of that. And then you
have the mission. You have the ground force, the friendly situation,
(23:06):
and this is going back to combat. Now you have
the enemy situation. Sometimes people are shooting at you. You're
getting target grids, target coordinates to take out an enemy target.
Bringing everything up, you have all sorts of aerial hazards
like mountains, birds, cell phone towers, wires, very steep valleys,
(23:27):
and power limitations within the aircraft and how much power
you have when you're doing these like deep dive attacks
with a fifty cal or rockets, and so it's a
lot at one time. Like you're if you're a Kiwa pilot,
you are likely an adrenaline junkie because that's what's going
on the entire time you're in the air, and you
(23:50):
get these troops in contact calls and then it's like
it's like a light switch, like it's on. It's like
go time, let's go. Like you could be like sitting there, fat,
dumb and happy, flying alt looking for the bad guy
and like the mountains of Afghanistan, and then you get
that call that there's friendly forces on the ground that
are overrun, getting attacked by the enemy, got hit by
(24:11):
an ID whatever, and it's like as Kywa pilots, we
prided ourselves in being able to have a call side,
a grid and a frequency and that's all we needed
to go destroy the enemy and to protect those guys
on the ground that were in the thick of the fight.
That was our purpose. That was our mission, was to
(24:33):
protect those guys, make sure they came home to their
families and try to make their day a little bit
easier because they didn't get to go back to the
fob that I lived on. They lived out in the cops,
they lived out in the outposts with horrible food, you know,
not sleeping conditions. The enemy was always on them, and
(24:53):
so we prided ourselves in being able to respond with
as little information as possible. We didn't fly as fast
as an Apache, but we dropped everything to get there
and help them out in any way that we could.
And that's what we lived for, and that's what we
prided ourselves on in combat, was being there for them
(25:16):
when it mattered the most. And so the adrenaline was
always there. And when you're deployed in combat, you lived
that for a year at a time. And I remember
speaking to a senior officer when I got back from
Iraq and he said, through some research, he was the
(25:37):
one sixtieth guy. He said that through their research they
had realized for every year you do at combat, it
takes twice that to sort of come down from that.
And then you compound it because you know, we're doing
these back to back to back deployments for years at
a time. My deployments were both one year. The army
had shifted to fifteen months after I was done deploying,
(25:59):
but so it was a lot and by the time
I got out, I had been living this like adrenaline,
stress filled lifestyle as most people experience in combat, and
had lost friends and it takes a while to come
down from that. I would say, like it takes years
(26:20):
to come down from that. It's not something that you
go talk to somebody about you know, for six weeks
and then you feel better. It's like it takes time
to sort of reset your lifestyle. At least that's the
way it is for me. And when I say lifestyle,
I mean sort of like your mindset and how you
(26:41):
operate without being three hundred miles an hour every day.
So that was a super long answer.
Speaker 2 (26:49):
But I'm glad to have heard it because I was
one of those guys on the ground in the infantry
in Afghanistan getting shot up every single day, saved I
can't even tell you how many times by helicopter pilots
(27:10):
just like you. And Okay, so you want to do something,
do an exercise with me real quick, go with go
with the flow on this amber. I want people to see.
I want to set a scenario and I want people
I want you to put people in your headspace. So
like say you're in Regional Command East RC East and
(27:31):
Afghanistan my platoon or there's a platoon out on the
border that's in contact, that's pinned down, and you get
that troops in contact report and you're in your Tactical
Operation center or in your bed. Your birds are on QRF.
Take us through from the moment that you get that call,
because you said it's like a light switch. Take us
(27:52):
through that moment when you get that call, to every
step of the way to your bird. And I want
people to see the level of proficiency. You talked about
it a little bit already, but the level of proficiency
and how you have it down to a battle drill
when you handle those types of situations.
Speaker 1 (28:10):
So immediately you get the call. Usually for us, we
were always in the air because you always, like we
did twenty four hour coverage, so there was always a
team in the air, and that's the team they called first,
unless they were just way far away. So say we
were the team that was in there, the pilot immediately
pushes forward on the cyclic and pulls up on the
collective which means max power, max airspeed, and you just
(28:32):
head in the direction. All you know is they may say, hey,
Corngall River Valley, there's a troops in contact. You know,
two Kia six wounded Metavax called still active tick Grid coming.
So we know just from being in the being in
that AO where that vicinity is. So we just immediately
(28:55):
start flying as fast as we possibly can to A
and All.
Speaker 2 (29:01):
And by the way, you don't know, you have no
idea what you're flying into. You just get a baseline report, who, where, when.
Speaker 1 (29:06):
And why go yep yep. If that sometimes we don't
even have that, We get that when we're like super close.
Sometimes you get there and you don't have much information,
which makes it very difficult. Or you have, you know,
guys on the ground who they're they're people laying next
to them are shot and they're trying to keep people alive.
They're trying to talk to Ariel, they're trying to talk
(29:28):
to the weapon the Scout Weapons team, which is us,
and get them the proper get grid so we can
then if it's at night, like lays the target, blow
them up. And then sometimes we have to observe for artillery.
If they call it an artillery mission, we'll stand to
the side. So you have artillery flying through the air
(29:48):
and we're flying there as well. You have the METAVAC
coming in and it is like a non stop activity
and and you just do the best you can with
the information that you have. And then once you start
putting like rounds down on targets, sometimes things calm down.
(30:13):
Sometimes they don't, and so it just kind of depends
what the enemy in Afghanistan was very willing to fight,
even sometimes when helicopters were on station. And so it
was like that's why I say, like in Iraq, it
was my experiences were more like okay, once you laid
down fire, it was like, okay, it might get kind
(30:34):
of quiet. But in Afghanistan, some like they were ready
to fight and keep going, and it was it was
much harder terrain. In Afghanistan. They hid in the mountains.
There was like boulder sized rocks that were the side
of cars, and they learned, they started to learn our TTPs,
our tactics, techniques and procedures for US as aerial platforms,
and they knew that they could you know, come out
(30:57):
when we were on our outbound racetrack pattern before after
shooting and then jump back behind the rocks again, which
were which were great you know, like protectors for them.
And so it was we did what we could with
the information and entering availability that we had.
Speaker 2 (31:19):
I remember I used to come back from moments like that,
you know, haven't been been bailed out by you know,
helicopter air assets, come back from a troops in contact
and like you know, your adrenaline flows. It's It's crazy
how your adrenaline flows in moments like that, And I'm
sure it was like that for you and the birds
(31:40):
racing to troops in contact, trying to save the day.
You get back from those missions, How did you mentally reset?
Because I feel like there were times I'd come back
from missions and I'd you know, you go through your
priorities of work and make sure your trucks are refilled
with fuel and ammunition, and your weapons are cleaned, and
(32:04):
then you know your men eat. What was that like
for you? How did you mentally reset? Because you go
you're flying, I mean, what's the air speed of a
Kiowa Warrior helicopter pilot, and you're talking about the chaos
over top of troops in contact. You don't want to
shoot friendly troops. You've got artillery sometimes coming in, You've
(32:25):
got mortars coming in. You don't want to get hit
with a mortar. You don't want to get hit with artillery.
And then sometimes you have close air support, which are
a tens and in some of the worst cases like
a strategical answer, and you don't want to be caught
in the middle of any of that. So God forbid.
So somehow you, by the grace of God, you survive
all that, you find yourself back on the base. How
do you mentally decompress from that?
Speaker 1 (32:48):
So for me, I really didn't decompress during that year
that I was there. I like I almost couldn't because
you go out the next day and you do the
exact same thing, and so you kind of have to
keep your head in the game. And I think that's
(33:08):
why it's so taxing and so stressful, like compounded stress
is because you don't ever get that let down while
you're in it, because you need to keep that stress
level so high in order for you to keep your
head in the game to be able to be completely
efficient and effective at your mission and flying the helicopter,
(33:29):
and you can't let emotions and what if scenarios like
enter your mind. Those definitely came after when you come
home from deployments like back to America. Yeah, then it's
like flooded with like how the hell did I survive
(33:49):
that specific situation? Like I should not. I should not
have survived it, Like, by the grace of God, I
am here today. But there are there are instances, like
too many to count where I'm like, how did I
survive that and so, but you can't think of that
either in the moment when you come back from the mission.
(34:11):
It's it's just at least that's how I handled it.
I didn't let my mind go to that place until
I came back from the deployment, like in the moment
in Afghanistan or in Iraq. It was a fate I
had accepted for anything that was going to happen in country.
It was a fate that I accepted for being there
(34:32):
as part of my job and part of my mission.
And I just didn't let myself think about it or
dwell on it. And it was like, Yep, going to
wake up tomorrow and do the exact same thing. You
talk about a fate, help out guys just like you did.
Speaker 2 (34:45):
Do you talk about a fate you accepted? Did you
accept at a certain level that you that you could
very well die and you just let go. You don't care,
and obviously you want to make it home alive.
Speaker 1 (34:55):
Yeah. I think that you know that because I had
so many I had. I had so many people in
my troop, like small troop that I know throughout my years,
had gotten killed in helicopter crashes, in combat, like it
was like a fact of life. And it was like
(35:16):
I remember when my friend Mike Slabonik, who's the sew
before he was killed in Afghanistan. He was shot in
his thigh and bled out and was killed on actually
nine to eleventh, two thousand and eight. And I remember
I was he was in my troop. He was my
instructor pilot from the very first. I deployed with him twice,
(35:39):
flown with him. Taught me so much about flying. And
I remember because it had happened so many times. You
know the look on a person's face when they walk
into a room to tell you. And I remember when
my my friend and colleague and pilot came to tell me.
I looked on her face and I said, who is it?
(36:01):
She didn't say anything. I just knew that someone had died.
I didn't know who, and uh, I was just like,
who is it? And then I found out was Mike.
Speaker 2 (36:14):
But how did you handle that?
Speaker 1 (36:18):
That was rough for me, that it so so we
just talked about We just talked about how you handle
knowing you could die in combat. And I think that
was kind of the exception when I said I didn't
(36:42):
think about it in theater but when Mike got killed,
it brought me back to reality and brought me back
how like every day you make it home from a
mission is a gift, and like how fragile life is,
and just how unfair it was that he didn't make
(37:06):
it home. You know, wife, kids, great American, loved this country,
loved serving and flying, and so it was. It was
hard even after like all the people who I also
knew had been killed. It was it was. It never
(37:28):
gets any easier. I would say, how.
Speaker 2 (37:32):
Has how have these experiences amber shaped your perspective on
how you live your life today?
Speaker 1 (37:43):
Everything, all of those experiences have formed who I have,
who I am today, and it's completely changed my perspective
of war, of national security, of foreign policy, of at
a at a more national political level has completely And
(38:08):
also I think from my time serving in the Pentagon
and seeing it more from an executive Pentagon level and
then contrast to me as more of an operations tactical
level as my time as a Kiowa pilot. Uh. And
so that's completely changed my perspective on life and how
I live my life, my priorities of what I think
(38:32):
is important, and I'm so incredibly grateful for my service.
I it gave me so much. It was it was hard.
I almost did it for you know, over seven and
a half years of my life, but it gave me
(38:53):
so much in terms of life lessons and learning who
I was and what I was capable of and and
how I would handle situations and so everything who I
am today is because of my experiences in the military.
Speaker 2 (39:15):
Do you think when you talk about how your service
has shaped your perspective on geopolitics?
Speaker 1 (39:23):
In war?
Speaker 2 (39:27):
You've always been someone. You fought for this country in Afghanistan,
Iraq on multiple battlefield as you said you did seven
plus years. It's so important amber for people like you
to come back and stay involved in the dialogue and
(39:47):
direction of this country. The role of you know, the
elder warrior in society's past, and that yes, we send
our men and women to fight for our country. They
experience haring and sometimes horrifying things in service to the country,
and instead of coming home and detaching, we need those
(40:11):
people to come back and stay involved to help educate
our policymakers on what war is like. And you've done that.
Where of all the horrible things that you've experienced, I'm
sure your service is braided with terrible experiences and the
best experiences in life. But where has that motivation come
(40:35):
from inside of you to stay in the fight for
this country.
Speaker 1 (40:42):
I will tell you that I think top level leadership
are in the military are a big part of today's
problem with the military, and unfortunately, their voice in society
is what matters. The reason I choose to stay involved
and be very vocal on some very unpopular issues that
(41:06):
a lot of people don't agree with me on is
because I think that it's important to have voices out
there that don't have stars on their shoulders, people who
have fought in these wars, that some of their decisions
place people in these positions. Those people who have been
(41:26):
there at that lower operational level, tactical level, and have
those experiences and understand that what briefs well on a
fancy little PowerPoint presentation in a skiff in the Pentagon
or at the White House doesn't always equate to what's
(41:48):
needed on the battlefield to achieve mission success. And so
I don't feel that the tactical level soldier is always
best represented because in today's military, once you get that
star on your shoulder, a lot of people aren't gonna
like that. I have to say this, but they are politicians.
(42:10):
You are then a politician that is serving a higher
political being. It's no longer about the guys on the ground,
and I take issue with that. It's not okay. It's
destroying our military and we see it in the recruitment
numbers that are coming out. It's only gonna get worse,
(42:31):
and so I want to make sure that people know
the truth and that military leadership is a significant like also,
you know, executive and congressional legislative leadership is as well.
They hold some of the blame with the budget and
all of that, but it's they are a big part
(42:53):
of the problem. And I think for so long in
our country no one felt like they could speak out
about jenn Les. It was like, oh, you're a general,
You're untouchable, and that should be the exact opposite. You
want the responsibilities that come with being a general, then
guess what you deserve to be critiqued for the decisions
that you make. But sadly, there is no accountability for
(43:18):
about above the lieutenant colonel rank. It's like once you
make it past lieutenant colonel. Except very few instances in
the Navy, for some reason. In the Navy, they still
choose to hold some of their vessel commanders responsible for
things that happen with them. But across the military, as
a generalization, senior military leaders are no longer held accountable
(43:42):
and that is a significant, significant problem for the future
of our nation and our national security and then an
effective military.
Speaker 2 (43:54):
Amber I totally agree. Can I give you my perspective
on this?
Speaker 1 (43:59):
Absolutely?
Speaker 2 (44:00):
People like you know so, I've served just over six years,
almost seven years in the military. I went into the
military after nine to eleven, just like you saying, I
wanted to make it a career. And then I went
to airborne school, went to ranger school, went to every cool,
sexy school that the military had to offer, and I
(44:21):
found myself boots on the ground in eastern Afghanistan in
direct combat with an enemy for sixteen straight months. And
first firefight I came back. It was exhilarating. And then
the second, third, fourth, fifth, sixth, I was like, Okay,
this sucks. I can't do this. I can't do this
for a career. And I came home. I came home.
(44:43):
I became you know. I I remember like my U
came home in my unit, like nine months later, was
supposed to go back to Afghanistan and I went into
my commander's office and I said, you know, Sir, I
can't do this. I can't I can't lead troops effectively
anymore because I'm home now. I'm emotionally compromised. You talked
about that emotional state that you have to get in
(45:05):
and combat to be able to survive and thrive and lead.
I was out of it. Amber I was out of it.
And I rather than put my soldiers at risk and
say like and pretend like there wasn't an issue, I
went and told my commander I can't do it anymore.
And that was in the process of being medically retired,
having been wounded in combat and all that. But during
(45:28):
that time of my medical retirement, I did a lot
of watching other leaders officers in the military, and what
I saw is that there are officers that play the
game and officers who don't. And it's typically the officers
who don't see heavy combat that end up staying in
(45:51):
because they don't have the same sort of experiences that
I had on the battlefield and they think, oh, this
isn't that bad, Well, maybe stay on to be a
captain a major, lieutenant colonel. And what you end up
have happening is is you have in units all across
the military, people who didn't see the heaviest combat, or
didn't didn't play at the highest operational tempo, end up
(46:14):
climbing the ladder. And what I saw among that demographic
where men and women who are willing to play the game,
leaders who were only concerned with their bow and rarely
their wake. And most of those people never saw sustained
heavy combat or high operational tempo like you. And what
(46:35):
you end up have happening is you have a bunch
of people with stars on their shoulders who have never
really seen the horrors of war up close and personal
for a sustained amount of time. And I liken it
to almost being, you know, calling yourself an artist, but
having never painted the painting in your life. Yet. These
are the people that are making life and death decisions
(46:58):
at this strategic level for our country and our men
and women in uniform. And we're talking when you talk
about making strategic decisions, we're talking about decisions that send
our people to war, which I believe America's sons and
daughters are the most precious natural resource it's a leader's job.
And I think that you'll probably agree with me. It's
(47:20):
we need to do everything that we can to protect
America's sons and daughters and shield them from sending them
into frivolous wars. And I think that's sort of why
we're in, why the military is today where it is.
Speaker 1 (47:37):
That's such a fantastic point. Like with your experiences transitioning
out of the military and what you saw, I do
think that when you said that our men and women
who are serving our nation's most viable assets, they one
hundred percent are And there is nothing that makes me
(48:00):
more furious than an American saying when you point out
the flaws of the Pentagon, and you point out the
flaws of the military and toxic leadership that exists, and
you know, the almost cultural stance at the top, which
is to appease politicians in Washington instead of setting up
the military to be the best. Down at the tactical
(48:25):
level is when people say, oh, well you well, you
signed up to serve the military people volunt all volunteer force,
so they just have to deal with it. They you know,
they knew what they were signing up for. And that
is a bunch of crap. People signed up to serve
our country because they believe in the freedoms and principles
(48:46):
that our nation was founding on founded on, and they
believe that it is worth protecting. They don't sign up
to join the military to have the poorest leaders that
exist and are not putting their wealth being in line
the way that it should be. You should not be
treated as can and fodder because you signed up to
(49:09):
serve our military, and that has a lot to do
with leadership and what they think that they can get
away with and their priorities, and so, yes, signing up
for war, you know that you could potentially have to
go to war give your life, and that's what people
know going into it. But it doesn't mean that they
should be put in positions that they had that are
(49:34):
wrong for the nation, that are not smart foreign policy
or national security decisions. And sadly that's what we see today.
That's exactly what we saw with Afghanistan, where there was
not a single general from about summer of twenty eleven
after osamavan Laden was killed up until the withdrawal that
could not articulate a mission or an in state for Afghanistan.
(49:58):
So they knew they and they continued to send people
into harm's way for a fight that they couldn't articulate.
Speaker 2 (50:05):
I mean, I totally totally listen. I totally agree. And
I was going to ask you about the fall of
Afghanistan and how that affected you, you know, emotionally, mentally, physically.
I remember when I saw those images of what it
(50:26):
looked like Saigon two point zero and the chinel helicopters
on top of the embassies in Afghanistan, and just the
sheer just how fast Afghanistan collapsed in on itself like
a dying star. And our politicians who sent us into
that war for twenty plus years, like as you mentioned,
(50:47):
no mission, no end state, and you had these generals
who every year the issue they report on Afghanistan in January,
and every year they say the mission is on track,
the Afghan National Armies on track, the Afghan National Police
are on track, Afghan Border Police are good to go.
But you and I, having been in that country, we
knew that that wasn't true. Yet they issued those reports anyway,
(51:08):
And in the lead up to the fall of Afghanistan,
you could see the writing on the wall. You could
see that our political leaders, our military leaders had They
hadn't given one thought to what a drawdown in peaceful
end state or peaceful withdrawal from Afghanistan looked like, and
it ended up squandering what I believe. I mean obviously
(51:30):
like having been there, I would go back and serve
there again. We did lots of great things there. We
built wells in villages and did lots of humanitarian assistants
and taught kids to read and you know, enabled young
little girls to go get an education. I'm proud of
my service in Afghanistan. I'm sure that you are too,
But it doesn't mean that I'm not pissed off that
(51:51):
they squandered every bit of that. Because you're seeing Afghanistan,
it's like the funniest thing in the world. Amber where
you had the administration in Jensaki, who is then the
White House Press Secretary, saying that the Taliban were going
to now now embrace women's rights and allow them to
go to school. Was there any part of you that
(52:14):
believed that at all? And give me a sense, give
us a sense of how you process the fall of
Afghanistan and what it was like for you.
Speaker 1 (52:25):
All politics is today is PR campaign after PR campaign,
after pr campaign, and Afghanistan was no different. Like you said,
they were trying to sell to the public that the
Taliban was going to be great for Afghanistan and they
were going to be okay with women's rights and girls
going to school, and anyone with half of a brain
saw right through that, especially veterans who had served there.
(52:50):
And that's why I think it was so difficult. The
withdrawal was so difficult, difficult for so many Afghanistan veterans.
For me, the writing was on the wall. I understood
from a political stance that the war in Afghanistan was
never going to change. It was going to be the
same bureaucracy, the same hearings at Congress, the same throw
(53:13):
the money at the problem, no results, no accountability, no
ability to track the money that we are sending, the
fifty billion dollars a year that we're sending over there,
and so year after year after year, it was very
clear to me that there was no coherent strategy, if
there was one at all, towards any sort of a
(53:33):
in state that would be beneficial. So it was we
can continue to spend money, we can continue to see
our American soldiers die in Afghanistan, or we can start
the process of ending this war. So I was for
(53:55):
the end of the war. What I was not for
was the withdrawal. The way that it happened, it could
not have been more like the world side. It could
not have been more of a disaster, more chaotic, more unplanned,
and it really showed a lot of our vulnerabilities, I
think from a national security perspective, with how it unfolded,
(54:20):
both like in our intelligence and you know, the Taliban
has no capabilities to take Kabul, the Afghan Army is
able to hold Kaboul. You know, all of that information
that continued to come out from the IC and was
it wasn't just false, Like we didn't look back and
be like, oh yeah, they were a little off on
(54:40):
that one. It fell in the it fell in days,
and so it was just I think an example of
the IC doing their analysis, politicized analysis of like wanting
a specific outcome and then that's what gets briefed instead
of the reality on the ground. And so it was
(55:03):
very difficult for me to watch, actually a whole lot
more difficult than I thought it would be. It really
affected me seeing, you know, seeing the helicopters evacuate American
civilians off of the embassies, seeing what happened at the
airfield at Kia, seeing American veterans springing into actions, like
(55:29):
everybody on their phones twenty four to seven to try
to help the interpreters, interpreters and the other Afghans who
had helped Americans on the ground. And it was such
a helpless feeling because you're sitting over here in America.
You're like trying to, you know, communicate the best you can,
figure out a way, figure out which gates open right now,
(55:50):
versus you know, where the Taliban is like beating people
to death and all of that. So it was a
lot and it was really a surreal time, I am.
But what was more surreal was how quick it was
out of the news cycle once it was over.
Speaker 2 (56:07):
My gosh, Amber, you're so right, Oh my god, so
much there. I remember experiencing that I felt at a
very similar experience, and I remember thinking, my god, I
want to go back, get me over there. And at
the time I was, I was running for Senate at
(56:27):
the height of my Senate campaign, and I was this
close to suspending my campaign and hopping on like some civilian. Wow,
back and I did, you feel the same way. I
know that you did.
Speaker 1 (56:40):
I did, I absolutely did, and I did the best
I can. I was working with some special operations veterans
that were doing some sort of fantastic work behind the
scenes in terms of getting things done, and I'm grateful
for the work that I was able to do with them.
Of course, you always wish that you could you more,
(57:01):
which sort of leads to that like helpless feeling. But
it was like time was so short, and then the
State Department, you know, shut everybody down, like shut it.
At one point it was like nope, shut down and
there was no way in or out. And then it
was like, all right, let's move to Grand transportation, and
that became its own issues for the obvious reasons with
the Taliban and checkpoints, and it was just it was
(57:26):
unreal that the US government essentially did that to itself,
and where's the accountability, Sean. Are we going to have
that conversation, Like, I know, Congress just launched their investigation,
but which is great, which is great, We're going to
spend taxpair dollars on like millions of taxpair dollars on
(57:48):
an investigation. But are we going to say, I only
want an investigation if there's going to be some accountability,
because what are they going to do with this investigation?
Speaker 2 (57:59):
What It's a fair point, Amber, And I really let
me just let me just ask you this, how much
investigation do we really need to do?
Speaker 1 (58:09):
Exactly?
Speaker 2 (58:10):
We all saw what a horrific train wreck the withdrawal
of Afghanistan was like. Yet you're absolutely right, from Milly
on down, there hasn't been one single person, not one politician,
not not one single general, not one single military leader,
(58:31):
who's been held accountable for that debacle. And at some level,
I think there has to be accountability.
Speaker 1 (58:37):
There has to be accountability, and if generals and civilian leaders,
civilian sectefs, there needs to be public acknowledgment of their
failures and that their responsibility contributed to this. And it
has to be not political. It has to be completely
just factual. These decisions, these leadership decisions that were made
(59:01):
by these individuals, you know, failed the US military and
those were serving in the people of Afghanistan. It needs
to be that blunt. If they can't, you know, like
criminally financially hold them accountable, then their needs they need
to publicly be said, what the decisions that these people
(59:24):
made led and the consequences of their actions. But yeah,
the people who are still serving, it is like they
need to be removed from leadership leadership positions. But the
thing was is that in the military at the Pentagon,
and this isn't just the military, this is a government problem.
You fail up when you go on with the failed
(59:46):
decisions and you fall in line. Guess what, you keep
your mouth shut, you get promoted, you move up, you
speak out, you use common sense, you think critically. Guess
what you are now a threat? And you who are
going to be held accountable for telling the truth?
Speaker 2 (01:00:03):
I mean, we live in a society with a two
tiered justice system. And you know, if you look at
what's going on with Joe Biden and the scandal that
he's embroiled in with these classified documents, like in the
carelessness with which he handled them had and then you
look at the way the general these generals handled Afghanistan
and the carelessness with which they handled the whole of Afghanistan. No,
(01:00:28):
like no accountability for Afghanistan. Is there going to be
accountability for Joe Biden, who, by the way, is the
commander in chief of the United States military. We wouldn't
get that level of grace if if you and you
or I as tactical leaders made the same mistakes that
(01:00:50):
they did, we would be fired and put out of
the military in a second.
Speaker 1 (01:00:55):
Can you even imagine? First of all, no, I don't
think Joe Biden's going to be held accountaball. I don't
not for a second. I wasn't even surprised. I wasn't
even surprised when I heard about this, about the cost
by documents, I just was like, sounds about right. So
the Yeah, imagine a captain or maybe like an E five,
(01:01:20):
you know all the clearances, goes in a skiff, is
working on something, just takes this many documents, stuffs them
in his backpack and walks out. What would happen to
that guy?
Speaker 2 (01:01:35):
Yeah, absolutely right, Yes, absolutely right, And there'd be no
discussion about it.
Speaker 1 (01:01:40):
Yeah, no discussion. They would be like committing treason, a
threat to the United States government. So it's just like
you said, the two tier justice system, the political elites,
when you're on the right wrong the right side, how
you get treated, and how everybody looks the other way
(01:02:02):
for you versus everybody else. It's really on American and
I don't know how long you carry on like that
before people wake up to the reality and get very
angry about that about one standard being held to the
political elite and those on the right side and then
(01:02:25):
those everybody else.
Speaker 2 (01:02:26):
Well, you know, and now Amber, you have two kids
of your own. How old are you got a boy
and a girl? How old are they?
Speaker 1 (01:02:34):
You do? Four and too?
Speaker 2 (01:02:36):
Four and two? Yeah, So I tried to do a
little bit of math before the pro try to figure
out how old your kids were. So you're still in
the thick of it with your little ones, like where
they're probably waking up in the middle of the night.
And so you've made the transition from you know, running
combat missions in Afghanistan and a Kyo Warrior helicopter flying
into troops in contact of probably watching Doc mcstuffans and
(01:02:59):
knowing all the lyrics on all of those Disney those
Disney shows, which which is yeah, you Pepa Pig, which
is a journey in and of itself, an adventurous one
at that. But what do you would you want your
children joining the military because your oldest is four, So
in fourteen years that would go by like that in
(01:03:19):
fourteen years. So we talked about your parents and how
they were supportive of you joined the military during a
time of war, and how they clearly how I don't
know how either. I mean, I'm a parent with young
children as well. I have no idea how I would
react to a situation like that. With where the military
(01:03:41):
is today, where are you on that?
Speaker 1 (01:03:46):
The answer is a hard no, And that absolutely breaks
my heart to say that. But the military that I
served in I don't even recognize anymore. It doesn't exist.
And that's hard because I devoted a significant chunk of
my life to it and it did do so much
(01:04:06):
for me. It was extremely hard and challenging, and it
forced myself, you know, to to the to the red
line where you learn what you're capable of and your limits,
and it it learned. It brings out the best part
of you. And so I'm so grateful for my service,
(01:04:26):
and I'm sad that that type of a military, with
the military leadership that exists today isn't there anymore. And
that the positive things that I said that the military
does for you about character building and you know, working
with the most diverse group of people that is out
there and having one solid mission and your purpose. I
(01:04:50):
don't believe that that military and those experiences are there anymore.
I don't feel like it's military leadership would have the
best in tryst of my children serving. It took me,
you know, when I first started having these thoughts about
you know, this is real now, like my parents are
(01:05:12):
growing up in a household where their father is still
serving and has had an incredible military career. And then
you know, I obviously served combat veteran myself, so of
course they're going to hear about it and be so
interested in it. But that's going to be a really
hard conversation, and like I wish, I hope the military
(01:05:32):
gets back on track. It's why I'm so vocal and
passionate about this is the military needs to turn itself
around and get back to a mission focused organization rather
than a Washington, d c. Political agenda organization and really
a leadership institution. The United States used to be the
best like leadership government agency institution out there. West Point
(01:05:58):
used to be the number one hip school in the world.
Now they're teaching CRT. They used to teach critical thinking,
and now they're focused on other things. So it's just
like the military has lost its way and it needs
to get back on track if they want to fix
this recruiting and retention and morale crisis that the military
is in right now. I will tell you I have
(01:06:22):
been speaking with a lot of active duty military and
I have been asking them the same question. Not one
person has said they would recommend military service to their children.
That is terrifying because when I served out the Pentagon,
(01:06:43):
I worked on an initiative called Know Your Military, which
connects the American public that doesn't have much of a
connection to those who serve, and then connects them to
the military. It's part of bridging the civilian military divide.
And through our research, we found that the military had
really turned into a family business. People who have parents
(01:07:04):
who serve are so much more likely to serve than
those without military parents are without that direct connection to
the military. And now this trend in people who are
serving are not recommending to their children that they serve
in the military. Is like, we think recruitment is bad
this current generation, what's it going to look like in
(01:07:25):
the next generation? And people need to wake up to
the national security threat that that is when are like, like,
we have an all volunteer service right now, is it
always going to be like that.
Speaker 2 (01:07:40):
How do we get things back on the right track.
Speaker 1 (01:07:44):
We do. We start by fixing the general problem. And
the thing is is that it's not an easy fix.
It's going to have to be Congress in the executive brand.
It's working together, and what I just said doesn't actually
exist in real life. So I don't think there's going
(01:08:06):
to be much change. It would require both of them
focusing on leadership at the Pentagon and understanding that that
sort of legacy generals are the problem, are part of
the problem, and they've just become yes man, that's what's said.
(01:08:29):
The generals of World War Two no longer exist. Those
aren't the generals in the military today. And so that's
kind of step one. You know, root out the toxic leadership,
the people who are you know, pushing these woke agendas
onto the military, over readiness, over mission success. And that's
(01:08:53):
more on the political leadership side that we see with
the sect deaf and his sort of priorities for the
US military. That so there's a lot to do, but
with the way the military is treating those who are
currently serving, it's having a serious effect. We saw what
(01:09:13):
the COVID mandate did It really was damaging to a
lot of people serving who were forced into a corner
and completely told that their principles didn't matter. So they
were told to basically, you know, the the army values
(01:09:35):
that you learn from day one. They were essentially said to, like, Nope,
get rid of those and just do what we tell
you to. Don't stand by your values anymore.
Speaker 2 (01:09:46):
It's terrifying. It sounds like it. I mean, the research
that you conducted at the Pentagon and the idea that
the military is a family business. People who have parents
who serve are more likely to serve themselves. What do
you do when your parents are like, na, ceasefire on that, kiddo,
Like it's not a good time to join. Raises very
(01:10:09):
serious questions of whether or not you can even have
an all volunteer force in five or ten years from now.
And man, I don't know, amber you're a warrior. I
want to be respectful of your time. How so, how
how has being an I want to talk about you now,
(01:10:32):
How has being a warrior in a helicopter pilot shaped
who you've become as a mom?
Speaker 1 (01:10:43):
I guess it's made me more critical and focused on
their future. And some of the things they are going
to be up against in this world. I know, like
I want, I do get very concerned about the direction
of this country and the divisiveness and how you're no
(01:11:05):
longer to think critically or have a voice of your
own without having to worry about going against the mainstream
and the consequences that come with it. But like I said,
I grew up loving America, loving the freedoms that I
got to enjoy every day growing up, and I want
(01:11:26):
to ensure that my children get to experience that level
of freedom, that level of opportunity, and the joys that
come with all of that. So it is very important
to me that I continue to fight that fight in
my own way by helping preserve the America that I
(01:11:49):
know in love and that I fought to protect and
two wars for. And I can only hope that more
Americans are waking up. I think if there is one
silver lining to the disaster of the COVID nineteen response
is that I think it did wake up some sleeping
(01:12:10):
Americans to big government power and control and utilizing fear
as a way to get that power and control. And
so I do think that I hope that many Americans
woke up to some of the tyranny that we are
now seeing on our own doorsteps, which is terrifying and
(01:12:34):
it happened very quickly. But I think it's important to
find your voice, speak out about it.
Speaker 2 (01:12:42):
I totally agree, find your voice, speak out about it,
take a stand, think critically, think for yourself. Amber. This
country is so lucky and blessed to have people like
you in it. And thank you for coming on today.
Thank you for your perspective, and thank you for joining
me on Battleground.
Speaker 1 (01:13:03):
Can I say, Mamartha, of course you can. I just
want to say, Sean number one. I'm so excited for
this podcast because you're like made for it, and also
so back in the day. You were my biggest advocate
for getting my book off the ground, for telling me
that I have a story, for helping me find my voice,
(01:13:24):
and being such a big supporter of my book with
everything that I needed. And I just can't thank you
enough for being such an awesome person friend American. You're
the real deal and America needs you. I know you're
going to stay in the fight.
Speaker 2 (01:13:41):
Thanks Amber, I really appreciate that. Thank you for saying
that you got it.
Speaker 1 (01:13:46):
Thanks for having me on Sean.
Speaker 2 (01:13:48):
All right, everybody, that's a wrap. I hope you enjoyed
my conversation with Amber. If you did, be sure to
subscribe wherever you listen to podcasts and and subscribe to
my YouTube channel for more exclusive content. We need your help.
This is a show for you. It cuts through all
(01:14:10):
of the bs that is wholly dedicated to preserving the
legacy of those who served and celebrating the greatest country
on the face of the planet, the United States of America.
Join us in that journey. We need you. If you
like the podcast, send me an email, shoot me a
message on social media. You know that I read them
and that I try to respond to everything and leave
(01:14:31):
a review because that helps us too. And as always,
God bless you all, and God bless this incredible country
that we live in. Take care
Speaker 1 (01:15:01):
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