Classics and the Western Canon discussion

CK wrote: "Bill wrote: "Everyman wrote: "I'm tempted to go ahead and schedule the Republic for the next read after Boethius. Call it our philosophy summer. ..."

Sounds good to me!"

ditto"

And me



and me

Referring to A Confederacy of Dunces. It's hilarious, but the main character is a bit of an overeducated "oaf" - a medieval, if you will. And he is constantly quoting Boethius! And crying out to Fortuna...haha.

Vikz wrote: "CK wrote: "Bill wrote: "Everyman wrote: "I'm tempted to go ahead and schedule the Republic for the next read after Boethius. Call it our philosophy summer. ..."

Sounds good to me!"

ditto"

And me..."

Trav claps hands. Me too!

Everyman wrote: ".Another comment I have heard is "you can't read the Republic for the first time." .."

I had read a comment much along the same lines regarding Joseph Conrad's Nostromo: you can't read Nostromo unless you've read it before. And it was TRUE.

I'm about to buy my copy of the Boethius. Can anyone recommend a translation? (I don't think I've asked this yet for the Boethius . . . )

S. Rosemary wrote: "I'm about to buy my copy of the Boethius. Can anyone recommend a translation? (I don't think I've asked this yet for the Boethius . . . )"

I can't recommend any because I haven't read any. But I can tell you that I looked for translations, and settled initially on the Richard Green based on reviews I had looked at. But I haven't started it yet, so that's not my recommendation, just my decision based on my own research. There are lots of translations; the challenge is that the Consolation is written partly in poetry and partly in prose. Translating poetry is always a challenge, and perhaps even more when it is poetry with a philosophical underpinning.

While we're on translations, for the Republic, Jowett or Shoprey were for many years the gold standards, and most of us at St. John's read one of those two. However, Allan Bloom came out with a translation in 1968 (yes, I was through college by then) which has been praised by many, though not all, Platonists (which is nothing new, getting Platonists to agree on anything is never going to happen). When Joe Sachs came out with a new translation in 2007 I was eager to read it, because Sachs was a well respected St. John's tutor, but while it got good reviews, I didn't find it as smooth as Bloom, though it may be more accurate -- Sachs is more of a Platonist, while Bloom is a wider ranging thinker. And there are certainly others out there that I'm not familiar with.

I think any of those four translations would be fine. We probably will be focusing more on the overall ideas of the dialogue than on the minutia. Jowett is widely available on the Internet, so for those who want to read it online, that would be a fine choice.

One nice thing is that all translations use a standardized page numbering for Plato, so no matter which translation people are using, we can easily refer to passages using that page numbering and anybody can find the references easily.

Thomas I'm sure can also chime in here with his thoughts on translations.

S. Rosemary wrote: "I'm about to buy my copy of the Boethius. Can anyone recommend a translation? (I don't think I've asked this yet for the Boethius . . . )"

The Consolation of Philosophy from Oxford World's Classics, translated by P.G.Walsh. It has a good introduction and reasonable amount of notes. Easy to read and understand.

Because I had enjoyed Walsh's translation of Cicero's The Nature of the Gods before, it was a relatively easy choice for me.

There is also a free online version at CCEL.

Thanks, everyone!

Everyman wrote: "While we're on translations, for the Republic, Jowett or Shoprey were for many years the gold standards, and most of us at St. John's read one of those two. However, Allan Bloom came out with a translation in 1968 (yes, I was through college by then) which has been praised by many, though not all..."

Bloom has become the standard Republic translation, but there are about twelve different translations that are easily found in print. Sachs is very accurate but his English can be quite choppy at times. I also like R.E. Allen's translation -- he stays pretty close to the text but his English is very fluid.

Jowett and Shorey are both reliable, but dated, as when Thrasymachus objects: "What balderdash is this that you have been talking, and why do you Simple Simons truckle and give way to one another?" (Shorey) Or Jowett: "And why, sillybillies, do you knock under to one another?"

Thomas wrote: Jowett and Shorey are both reliable, but dated, as when Thrasymachus objects: "What balderdash is this that you have been talking, and why do you Simple Simons truckle and give way to one another?" (Shorey) Or Jowett: "And why, sillybillies, do you knock under to one another?"

That's the problem when a new translator tries to be trendy and contemporary: the work is quickly dated.

Laurele wrote: "That's the problem when a new translator tries to be trendy and contemporary: the work is quickly dated."

I would hardly have expected that to apply to Jowett and Shorey if they were "the gold standards" used at St. Johns?

Lily wrote: "Laurele wrote: "That's the problem when a new translator tries to be trendy and contemporary: the work is quickly dated."

I would hardly have expected that to apply to Jowett and Shorey if they we..."

I agree, I don't think that was their goal.

I wound up with David Slavitt's translation. I like it so far. His work is described as 'accessible and modern'. I wonder how it will compare with others as we discuss this book.

I also wound up with Slavitt for Boethius and Bloom for Plato. We'll see how it goes!

I ended up with Victor Watts for Boethius (Penguin Classics) and I have two versions of Plato that me and my wife used for a class. Cornford and C.D.C. Reeve.



I prefer the Reeve translation, myself. Also, for what it's worth, the copyrights are 1945 and 2004, respectively.

Loved that comment, "You can't read Plato's Republic for the first time." I've found that periodically with difficult works; Dante's Inferno and Goethe's Faust come to mind. Even as I was reading them, I was thinking, "I can't wait to read this again."

And Paradise Lost! I may need to read that again sometime soon . . . like right now . . .(just finished Boethius)

Oh, apropos of my having just finished Boethius . . . when do we get to talk about it, Everyman?!

ETA: Oh, silly me, it's next week- thought it was THIS Tuesday. I can handle it- it ALSO needs to be re-read.

Yeah - I got Paradise Lost slightly more than I did Inferno (fewer contemporary political references), but you're right, a re-read would be helpful. And fun; that thing is great.

Just poking my nose in to ask about plans to start on The Decline & Fall. Is that still happening?

I'm waiting to get my next eye operation which, if successful, will allow me to resume serious reading, which at the moment I can't do. Right now the operation is scheduled for June 27, though that may need to be changed depending on other things. So it's not forgotten, I have the books, but right now can't read them except with a magnifying glass, which is no fun for that amount of reading.

Everyman wrote: "I'm waiting to get my next eye operation which, if successful, will allow me to resume serious reading, which at the moment I can't do. Right now the operation is scheduled for June 27, though tha..."

hope the op. goes well

Everyman wrote: "I'm waiting to get my next eye operation which, if successful, will allow me to resume serious reading, which at the moment I can't do. Right now the operation is scheduled for June 27, though tha..."

'Kay. Thanks for the update. Best of luck with the operation.

Everyman wrote: "I'm waiting to get my next eye operation which, if successful, will allow me to resume serious reading, which at the moment I can't do. Right now the operation is scheduled for June 27, though tha..."

Librivox has a fairly decent reading of Boethius, Eman.

Laurele wrote: "Librivox has a fairly decent reading of Boethius, Eman. "

thanks. I'll try it. I also have a copy on the Kindle, and since it's short have been reading the book copy with a magnifying glass, though I haven't read Book 2 yet because I've been dealing with some other health issues. But I'll get to it!

Everyman wrote: "I'm waiting to get my next eye operation which, if successful, will allow me to resume serious reading, which at the moment I can't do. "

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Best wishes headed your way, Everyman !

Alias Reader wrote: "Everyman wrote: "I'm waiting to get my next eye operation which, if successful, will allow me to resume serious reading, which at the moment I can't do. "

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Best wishes headed your ..."

And many prayers.