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Second Foundation Trilogy #2
Foundation and Chaos
A major science fiction author continues one of the most famous SF stories of all time.
448 pages, Paperback
First published February 1, 1998
About the author
Greg Bear
221 books2,002 followersGreg Bear was an American writer and illustrator best known for science fiction. His work covered themes of galactic conflict (Forge of God books), parallel universes (The Way series), consciousness and cultural practices (Queen of Angels), and accelerated evolution (Blood Music, Darwin’s Radio, and Darwin’s Children). His last work was the 2021 novel The Unfinished Land. Greg Bear wrote over 50 books in total.
(For a more complete biography, see Wikipedia.)
(For a more complete biography, see Wikipedia.)
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Displaying 1 - 30 of 127 reviews
September 27, 2019
ENGLISH
It is always complicated when an author adapts or continues another's work. In this case, it is a complete success.
Greg Bear has been zealous to be e worthy of Asimov´s legacy. The effort that an author is likely to take to get into such a complex universe might be significant. He succeeds in perfectly generating the undertone and the context and creates a worthy extension of the Foundation Universe.
GERMAN
Es ist immer so eine Sache, wenn ein Autor das Werk eines anderen adaptiert oder fortsetzt. In diesem Fall ist es ein voller Erfolg.
Greg Bear hat sich die Mühe gemacht, das Vermächtnis Asimovs neu erstrahlen zu lassen. Der Aufwand, den ein Autor wahrscheinlich betreiben muss, um sich in ein so komplexes Universum hinein zu versetzen, dürfte beträchtlich sein. Es gelingt ihm, die Stimmung und den Kontext perfekt aufzugreifen und eine würdige Erweiterung des Foundation Universums zu erschaffen.
It is always complicated when an author adapts or continues another's work. In this case, it is a complete success.
Greg Bear has been zealous to be e worthy of Asimov´s legacy. The effort that an author is likely to take to get into such a complex universe might be significant. He succeeds in perfectly generating the undertone and the context and creates a worthy extension of the Foundation Universe.
GERMAN
Es ist immer so eine Sache, wenn ein Autor das Werk eines anderen adaptiert oder fortsetzt. In diesem Fall ist es ein voller Erfolg.
Greg Bear hat sich die Mühe gemacht, das Vermächtnis Asimovs neu erstrahlen zu lassen. Der Aufwand, den ein Autor wahrscheinlich betreiben muss, um sich in ein so komplexes Universum hinein zu versetzen, dürfte beträchtlich sein. Es gelingt ihm, die Stimmung und den Kontext perfekt aufzugreifen und eine würdige Erweiterung des Foundation Universums zu erschaffen.
November 8, 2021
This second novel in the second Foundation trilogy was better than the first, but still not really my cuppa.
The events take place simultaneously to the ones in the first part of Asimov's original novel Foundation. One part of the novel details Hari's struggle with the Commission of Public Safety that we get in Asimov's book (honestly, I wouldn't have needed so many details). The other, and to me more important part, tells of Daneel's struggle because more and more robots are against his efforts (where have all these robots suddenly come from though?). As you know, the robot has been gently steering humanity and safeguarding its progress through time. However, could that also have the negative side-effect of stagnation due to a lack of conflict (not to mention Daneel's direct interference)? Is taking a risk sometimes better than having a guardian who ensures everything's OK? It IS an interesting question and since I love the robots more than anything else Asimov has created, I was on board with this novel focusing more on Daneel than Hari. And then there is the steady rise of the "mentalics" like Wanda (and even a rogue one who predicts a character from later events in Asimov's original trilogy).
The writing style was definitely better than that of the previous author and it was palpable that Bear did damage control in the beginning. However, it still didn't feel like an actual Foundation story and I still don't see the point of these books. As mentioned above, I liked spending time with Daneel and the question posted by the so-called Calvinist robots was indeed important and interesting. However, as the other author, Bear spent a little too much time with the concept explored. This also is valid for Wanda. And the introduction of Vara felt more like a forced way to tie this to Asimov's original than anything else.
What I really disliked, though, was how Daneel had changed under this author. Asimov always made it clear just how hard it always was for humanity's guardian to manipulate someone's mind, even just to a small degree. Here, however, Daneel is having long-ass conversations with people just to erase their memory of it afterwards and apart from that changing the core of the character, I was also asking myself what the purpose of the whole thing was supposed to be.
Yes, this one was definitely better than the first (the physics also matched Asimov's again), but it was still not good. I think I'm gonna downrate Benford's because I can't justify giving this one 3 stars. Sorry. So far, unfortunately, this second trilogy has been a dud - it will be very interesting to see if Brin did a better job with the third one.
P.S.: Funnily enough, I realized only now that the series title, Second Foundation trilogy, doesn't mean the second trilogy in Asimov's series but "trilogy about Asimov's Second Foundation". *doh* *lol*
The events take place simultaneously to the ones in the first part of Asimov's original novel Foundation. One part of the novel details Hari's struggle with the Commission of Public Safety that we get in Asimov's book (honestly, I wouldn't have needed so many details). The other, and to me more important part, tells of Daneel's struggle because more and more robots are against his efforts (where have all these robots suddenly come from though?). As you know, the robot has been gently steering humanity and safeguarding its progress through time. However, could that also have the negative side-effect of stagnation due to a lack of conflict (not to mention Daneel's direct interference)? Is taking a risk sometimes better than having a guardian who ensures everything's OK? It IS an interesting question and since I love the robots more than anything else Asimov has created, I was on board with this novel focusing more on Daneel than Hari. And then there is the steady rise of the "mentalics" like Wanda (and even a rogue one who predicts a character from later events in Asimov's original trilogy).
The writing style was definitely better than that of the previous author and it was palpable that Bear did damage control in the beginning. However, it still didn't feel like an actual Foundation story and I still don't see the point of these books. As mentioned above, I liked spending time with Daneel and the question posted by the so-called Calvinist robots was indeed important and interesting. However, as the other author, Bear spent a little too much time with the concept explored. This also is valid for Wanda. And the introduction of Vara felt more like a forced way to tie this to Asimov's original than anything else.
What I really disliked, though, was how Daneel had changed under this author. Asimov always made it clear just how hard it always was for humanity's guardian to manipulate someone's mind, even just to a small degree. Here, however, Daneel is having long-ass conversations with people just to erase their memory of it afterwards and apart from that changing the core of the character, I was also asking myself what the purpose of the whole thing was supposed to be.
Yes, this one was definitely better than the first (the physics also matched Asimov's again), but it was still not good. I think I'm gonna downrate Benford's because I can't justify giving this one 3 stars. Sorry. So far, unfortunately, this second trilogy has been a dud - it will be very interesting to see if Brin did a better job with the third one.
P.S.: Funnily enough, I realized only now that the series title, Second Foundation trilogy, doesn't mean the second trilogy in Asimov's series but "trilogy about Asimov's Second Foundation". *doh* *lol*
November 8, 2021
To me, this reads as a much better book than the first in the trilogy that continues the middle years of Hari Seldon's career.
Of course, these books are running up against two rather major obstacles. They are supposed to continue Asimov's legacy. So far, it's been rather hit-or-miss.
How do we judge these? Do we go by Asimov's simplicity of style and clarity? Or do we go by the fundamental ideas and the spirit of the thing?
Mind you, if I had read this novel without any association to Asimov's Foundation, I probably would have enjoyed it as a relatively interesting SF about competing visions of the future with and without moral constraints, almost set up as a Petri dish experiment. Add a lot more robots into the mix, add a pretty cool courtroom drama sequence, and people with psi powers, and the whole thing might have been pretty awesome.
But when it IS supposed to continue Asimov's Foundation, I get the feeling like this whole novel might have been better served as a great thought experiment that focused on the unseen heroes who MADE the Empire work. The extra length may not have been necessary to give us the inherent chaos of natural selection or the conflict that nearly tanked the Foundation.
I'm sitting on the edge with this one. I'm disappointed as an Asimov AND Greg Bear fan, but no more disappointed than I usually am when I read, say, KJA and BH's extra Dune series.
It's not fantastic, but it's not horrible, either. And both serve to dilute the good stuff in the originals.
Of course, these books are running up against two rather major obstacles. They are supposed to continue Asimov's legacy. So far, it's been rather hit-or-miss.
How do we judge these? Do we go by Asimov's simplicity of style and clarity? Or do we go by the fundamental ideas and the spirit of the thing?
Mind you, if I had read this novel without any association to Asimov's Foundation, I probably would have enjoyed it as a relatively interesting SF about competing visions of the future with and without moral constraints, almost set up as a Petri dish experiment. Add a lot more robots into the mix, add a pretty cool courtroom drama sequence, and people with psi powers, and the whole thing might have been pretty awesome.
But when it IS supposed to continue Asimov's Foundation, I get the feeling like this whole novel might have been better served as a great thought experiment that focused on the unseen heroes who MADE the Empire work. The extra length may not have been necessary to give us the inherent chaos of natural selection or the conflict that nearly tanked the Foundation.
I'm sitting on the edge with this one. I'm disappointed as an Asimov AND Greg Bear fan, but no more disappointed than I usually am when I read, say, KJA and BH's extra Dune series.
It's not fantastic, but it's not horrible, either. And both serve to dilute the good stuff in the originals.
March 27, 2014
I almost gave this two stars until I realized how utterly pointless the book was. Nothing in the story advances the plot of the Foundation Series until the last 10 pages or so.
The "sims" were (thankfully) largely downplayed after their disastrous introduction in Foundation's Fear. There was no VR immersion nonsense either. It also wasn't nearly as long (albeit still 350 pages or so too long in my opinion...). So in these regards, it was not as bad as Fear was.
But, there were robots. Tons and tons of robots for no reason other than to fight with each other for some reason. Daneel is back, and changed for the worse. In previous books, Asimov stated how it was very hard for Daneel to manipulate someone's mind even a small amount. In this book he is having entire conversations with people just to erase their memory of it when he is done. Why??
Asimov would be rolling over in his grave if he realized how his legacy was tainted by his greedy survivors.
The "sims" were (thankfully) largely downplayed after their disastrous introduction in Foundation's Fear. There was no VR immersion nonsense either. It also wasn't nearly as long (albeit still 350 pages or so too long in my opinion...). So in these regards, it was not as bad as Fear was.
But, there were robots. Tons and tons of robots for no reason other than to fight with each other for some reason. Daneel is back, and changed for the worse. In previous books, Asimov stated how it was very hard for Daneel to manipulate someone's mind even a small amount. In this book he is having entire conversations with people just to erase their memory of it when he is done. Why??
Asimov would be rolling over in his grave if he realized how his legacy was tainted by his greedy survivors.
July 10, 2012
This book is annoying on many levels:
Overall thoughts - this was not a journey where the reader is carried along by a quest and comes to a resolution by the end. This was a "glad it's over" story. A book should be a collection of words greater than the sum of the total. Foundation and Chaos was the opposite. Asimov gives the sensation of a rich and vast universe with his Foundation series. With this book the words are there but the meaning is lost and the reader is left looking through a small peephole with no understanding of what is happening.
The characters were one dimensional and there were no clear antagonists. Those who were seemed to vacillate between motives. What I found particularly disturbing was that everyone in this book seemed to know the purpose of robots and that robots were trying to steer humanity along a path. This premise does not conform with the way Asimov wrote his series. Robots had, by design, fallen out of the collective conscious of humanity. And at the climax of the story multiple characters were able to break into an Imperial government building with ease. I find this very implausible and believe the author either didn't care or ran out of time to be thorough.
With an author of this reputation one would think grammar, punctuation and word meaning would not be an issue. This was not the case. There were multiple minor annoyances that added up to make this a bad book:
The author had a penchant for ending paragraphs using ellipsis. The author should have reviewed the use of ellipsis and when to add an additional period. For some reason he liked to use the word "ceil" in place of "ceiling." Note to author - "ceil" is a verb. He also used "mathist" in place of "mathematician." And the names he came up with for ships: "Flower of Evil" and "Spear of Glory." Come on! It seems to me he spent maybe five minutes thinking of names or else put on a blindfold and threw darts at a board filled with random words. One of my favorite weird names he came up with was "Crib of the Accused." WTH? And there was also his use of parenthesis inside a quotation. The author should review the proper use of parenthesis. Which brings me to his phrase "keeping literally tens of millions of balls in the air at once..." That was another favorite. To author - please review the use of "literal" versus "figurative." One of the other words that left me shaking my head was "ignoramus." Who uses that word?
I would not recommend this book to anyone. I believe you should respect the original author if you are going to "go into his house." Don't go in and start moving around everything and changing the furniture. This book does just that and fails miserably at continuing the universe that Asimov created.
September 10, 2023
I finished reading "Foundation and Chaos" by Greg Bear. This is an authorized part of the Asimov Foundation series . Once again we get into the details, filling out the story about how the Foundation got started. The original series started off rather abruptly with a new character, placed on trial and an older character that seems to know what is going on. The judgement is exile and suddenly you are on another planet, wondering how it all happened. Foundation and Chaos provides that information, outlining the trial and a lot of the back story of the characters who were only names in the book "Foundation".
I liked the book. This is a different author and I think he did an able job. Lots of excitement even though I know how it will turn out in the end. Getting there is half the fun and he provides that fun including tying up some of the sadder aspects of the story and smoothing them out. I was gratified. The book also suggested how the main "bad guy" in the original Foundation series might have come about.
There is one more novel in this particular set... Foundation's Triumph. Each of the novels stands alone, I am told. Certainly I could have read these first two in opposite order without too much of a problem.
I liked the book. This is a different author and I think he did an able job. Lots of excitement even though I know how it will turn out in the end. Getting there is half the fun and he provides that fun including tying up some of the sadder aspects of the story and smoothing them out. I was gratified. The book also suggested how the main "bad guy" in the original Foundation series might have come about.
There is one more novel in this particular set... Foundation's Triumph. Each of the novels stands alone, I am told. Certainly I could have read these first two in opposite order without too much of a problem.
August 4, 2011
Does some damage control on what Benford did to the series in the first book before it gets going but I'd give this series a pass unless you're a fanatical completionist.
November 23, 2022
This author just died at the age of 71. This is the only book of his I have read.
October 22, 2022
I didn't like this book.
July 24, 2014
‘In ‘Foundation and Chaos’, one of science fiction’s greatest storytellers takes one of its greatest stories into new and fascinating territory. Isaac Asimov’s classic Foundation series is back.
Hari Seldon, approaching the end of his life, is on trial for daring to predict the Empire’s fall. At the same time, final preparations are under way for the long-anticipated migration to Star’s End. But R Daneel Olivaw, the brilliant robot entrusted with this great mission, has discovered a potential enemy.
At a critical moment in the Empire’s fall and the Foundation’s rise, Hari Seldon is about to face the greatest challenge of his life.
Blurb to the 2001 Orbit Paperback Edition
The novel runs concurrently with Part I of Asimov’s original novel, cleverly using Hari Seldon’s trial – originally seen from the viewpoint of Gaal Dornick – as a central focus to examine events behind the scenes of which Gaal Dornick was unaware.
The trial dialogue is identical, but Asimov’s rather dry ‘transcript’ version has been dramatised – if one may use that word in this context – brilliantly and, if anything, creates a tension and suspense where in Asimov’s version of events there is merely his cosy sense of certainty and destiny. The reader was never in any doubt that the Seldon plan would succeed. It was just a matter of trying to work out how.
Behind the scenes, Hari’s grand-daughter, Wanda, is gathering ‘mentalics’ – human mutants capable of manipulating the thoughts of others – as the core of Seldon’s ‘Second’ Foundation.
Bear’s Foundation universe is a darker and more complex place than Benford’s, and it is to his credit that he manages to capture some of Asimov’s atmosphere whilst fully updating it for a contemporary readership.
Here, the robots take centre-stage and their millennia-spanning plans and behind-the scenes manipulations are put into a different perspective.
Lodovic Trema, an ancient robot and long-time associate of Daneel R Olivaw’s plans for humanity, has been altered by Voltaire (an AI personality first encountered in Foundation’s Fear). He no longer is bound by Asimov’s Three Laws of Robotics which forbid him to harm humans, and undergoes a form of robotic exegesis, coming to believe that Daneel’s protective stance of humanity as a whole is a restrictive suffocating policy.
The robots’ disparate philosophies and organisations are described using religious terminology with Humanity in the position of God/Creator. Originally united, the robot population was divided and subdivided by schisms, with some becoming Calvinist (after Susan Calvin from Asimov’s original ‘Robot’ series) and others becoming Giskardists following the philosophy of the robot R Giskard Reventlov. To add support to the religious connection there is a conversation between Daneel and the sim personality construct of Joan of Arc in which it is implied that Daneel’s God is Humanity, which in a sense is true if one applies the human religious hierarchical framework to Robots. Humans are the creators. They breathed life into the robots in a far more evidential way manner than God breathed life into Adam.
Oddly enough, the robot featured in Asimov’s ‘I, Robot’ or at least in the twilight Zone adaptation, was indeed called ‘Adam’, thus endowing the whole of this robotic narrative thread with a kind of theological thematic consistency. This means that the evolved humans now having abandoned their Gods, it is time for the Robots to do the same.
Were this not a posthumous sequel with a solid body of work stretching back – with various degrees of quality – to the Nineteen Forties, the concept of a robot in the late Nineties novel would only work in some ironic post-modern sense, as it does in ‘Roderick’.
The concept of a Galactic Empire is also one which modern writers approach at their peril, but here, given its cosy familiarity from the Asimov legacy seems – along with the robots – not out of place.
Bear, following on from Benford, fleshes out the power-structures and goes a long way toward making the Empire, and the complex power struggles which pervade it, a plausible entity. It’s fascinating to see how Bear, noted for novels of solid scientific speculation and Big Ideas, copes with what is essentially Space Opera, but cope he does, and extraordinarily well.
One of the best scenes involves two of the robots travelling to the secret robot base at Eos, a small blue moon of a green gas giant, orbiting a double star. There, an ancient robot with four arms, three legs and seven vertical sensor strips on its face ‘two of which glowed blue at any given time’ performs necessary maintenance on those robots who come in for their MOTs.
It’s a poignant and evocative section, laced with a Golden Age sense of wonder.
Hari Seldon, approaching the end of his life, is on trial for daring to predict the Empire’s fall. At the same time, final preparations are under way for the long-anticipated migration to Star’s End. But R Daneel Olivaw, the brilliant robot entrusted with this great mission, has discovered a potential enemy.
At a critical moment in the Empire’s fall and the Foundation’s rise, Hari Seldon is about to face the greatest challenge of his life.
Blurb to the 2001 Orbit Paperback Edition
The novel runs concurrently with Part I of Asimov’s original novel, cleverly using Hari Seldon’s trial – originally seen from the viewpoint of Gaal Dornick – as a central focus to examine events behind the scenes of which Gaal Dornick was unaware.
The trial dialogue is identical, but Asimov’s rather dry ‘transcript’ version has been dramatised – if one may use that word in this context – brilliantly and, if anything, creates a tension and suspense where in Asimov’s version of events there is merely his cosy sense of certainty and destiny. The reader was never in any doubt that the Seldon plan would succeed. It was just a matter of trying to work out how.
Behind the scenes, Hari’s grand-daughter, Wanda, is gathering ‘mentalics’ – human mutants capable of manipulating the thoughts of others – as the core of Seldon’s ‘Second’ Foundation.
Bear’s Foundation universe is a darker and more complex place than Benford’s, and it is to his credit that he manages to capture some of Asimov’s atmosphere whilst fully updating it for a contemporary readership.
Here, the robots take centre-stage and their millennia-spanning plans and behind-the scenes manipulations are put into a different perspective.
Lodovic Trema, an ancient robot and long-time associate of Daneel R Olivaw’s plans for humanity, has been altered by Voltaire (an AI personality first encountered in Foundation’s Fear). He no longer is bound by Asimov’s Three Laws of Robotics which forbid him to harm humans, and undergoes a form of robotic exegesis, coming to believe that Daneel’s protective stance of humanity as a whole is a restrictive suffocating policy.
The robots’ disparate philosophies and organisations are described using religious terminology with Humanity in the position of God/Creator. Originally united, the robot population was divided and subdivided by schisms, with some becoming Calvinist (after Susan Calvin from Asimov’s original ‘Robot’ series) and others becoming Giskardists following the philosophy of the robot R Giskard Reventlov. To add support to the religious connection there is a conversation between Daneel and the sim personality construct of Joan of Arc in which it is implied that Daneel’s God is Humanity, which in a sense is true if one applies the human religious hierarchical framework to Robots. Humans are the creators. They breathed life into the robots in a far more evidential way manner than God breathed life into Adam.
Oddly enough, the robot featured in Asimov’s ‘I, Robot’ or at least in the twilight Zone adaptation, was indeed called ‘Adam’, thus endowing the whole of this robotic narrative thread with a kind of theological thematic consistency. This means that the evolved humans now having abandoned their Gods, it is time for the Robots to do the same.
Were this not a posthumous sequel with a solid body of work stretching back – with various degrees of quality – to the Nineteen Forties, the concept of a robot in the late Nineties novel would only work in some ironic post-modern sense, as it does in ‘Roderick’.
The concept of a Galactic Empire is also one which modern writers approach at their peril, but here, given its cosy familiarity from the Asimov legacy seems – along with the robots – not out of place.
Bear, following on from Benford, fleshes out the power-structures and goes a long way toward making the Empire, and the complex power struggles which pervade it, a plausible entity. It’s fascinating to see how Bear, noted for novels of solid scientific speculation and Big Ideas, copes with what is essentially Space Opera, but cope he does, and extraordinarily well.
One of the best scenes involves two of the robots travelling to the secret robot base at Eos, a small blue moon of a green gas giant, orbiting a double star. There, an ancient robot with four arms, three legs and seven vertical sensor strips on its face ‘two of which glowed blue at any given time’ performs necessary maintenance on those robots who come in for their MOTs.
It’s a poignant and evocative section, laced with a Golden Age sense of wonder.
March 21, 2015
Foundation and Chaos is book two of the Second Foundation Trilogy is rather different to book one. For a start Bear sticks more faithfully to the Foundation universe as described by Asimov. How important that is will vary depending on the reader. More importantly, the plot of this book feels more cohesive, resulting in a more entertaining read.
The Second Foundation Trilogy covers the life of Hari Seldon, his invention of psychohistory and his setting up of the two Foundations. This particular book concentrates on the period of his life when he was put on trial by the crumbling Empire. Although Hari Seldon is the main character of the trilogy (and thus this particular book) large parts of it are witnessed through the eyes of other characters. This is both interesting and frustrating at the same time.
On the one hand we get to explore Trantor from various perspectives. On the other, I found Seldon to be one of the most interesting characters and wanted to spend more time in his head. There is an overarching plot to this trilogy, the exact nature of which is not clear yet. In the first book, there were sections which seemed totally irrelevant to the main thrust of the book. During this book, the various strands become rather more entwined. Even so the significance is not at all clear. Plotwise, perhaps the most significant change from book one to book two is the portrayal of R Daneel Olivaw. In this book he seems less human. A not unnatural condition for a robot as old as he is by this point. His obsession with “protecting” the human race while still genuine goodwill on his part, seems less healthy now and maybe counterproductive. He also seems a little too free at manipulating people.
As I mentioned this book is more faithful to the Foundation Universe. No more wormholes, we’re back to hyperships again. This book reads and feels more like an Asimov Foundation story. The themes are very much those which Asimov used throughout his Foundation writing too. Unfortunately there is still something missing. The book is well written, the characters interesting and the setting well developed. Its good, its just not quite Foundation.
The Second Foundation Trilogy covers the life of Hari Seldon, his invention of psychohistory and his setting up of the two Foundations. This particular book concentrates on the period of his life when he was put on trial by the crumbling Empire. Although Hari Seldon is the main character of the trilogy (and thus this particular book) large parts of it are witnessed through the eyes of other characters. This is both interesting and frustrating at the same time.
On the one hand we get to explore Trantor from various perspectives. On the other, I found Seldon to be one of the most interesting characters and wanted to spend more time in his head. There is an overarching plot to this trilogy, the exact nature of which is not clear yet. In the first book, there were sections which seemed totally irrelevant to the main thrust of the book. During this book, the various strands become rather more entwined. Even so the significance is not at all clear. Plotwise, perhaps the most significant change from book one to book two is the portrayal of R Daneel Olivaw. In this book he seems less human. A not unnatural condition for a robot as old as he is by this point. His obsession with “protecting” the human race while still genuine goodwill on his part, seems less healthy now and maybe counterproductive. He also seems a little too free at manipulating people.
As I mentioned this book is more faithful to the Foundation Universe. No more wormholes, we’re back to hyperships again. This book reads and feels more like an Asimov Foundation story. The themes are very much those which Asimov used throughout his Foundation writing too. Unfortunately there is still something missing. The book is well written, the characters interesting and the setting well developed. Its good, its just not quite Foundation.
February 7, 2011
I read the Foundation Series as a teenager and with "Foundation and Earth" I thought there could be nothing more that could be achieved beyond that book. So, when I came across the books that were published ostensibly as an authorised extension to the foundation saga - It was something amounting to sacrilege!! I could barely control myself whenever I caught a glimpse of any of the pretenders. It was like Mammon had won the battle and Asimov's legacy would soon be muddled.
Well, time does mellow ones feelings and also introduces newer perspectives. Messrs Bear, Grin and Benford have done a commendable job in trying to add a bit of Science to what was essentially a 1950s plot to make it palatable for contemporary hard sci-fi readers.
I would recommend that this series should be read separately after completing a reading of the original series.
August 6, 2018
This is such a super rubbish book. I am actually very disappointed I read it. Some reviews of post-Asimov Foundation said that Fear was so rubbish that it’s best just to skip to this one so I did. But it was a mistake to bother with this at all. If anything it has tainted my lasting images of Asimov's wonderful time-spanning saga. Daneel is much crueler in this than in any Asimov story, he's ruthless and really is laid out as a blight on humanity. Brain-fever to make mankind less innovative and thus less troublesome to control? Are you kidding me? This is all just so bad. So many pointless robots and other new useless constructs. Asimov would be gutted, I'm gutted. Once you've read Asimov's work on this series, consider it as over, that's it, let it go, don't be tempted to read this. Seriously.
This entire review has been hidden because of spoilers.
March 18, 2011
I completed Foundation and Chaos in a few weeks, reading mostly in the late evening or in stolen minutes during weekends. By contrast, I took months to finish the first entry in this trilogy, Foundation's Fear by Gregory Benford. Benford's plodding, tedious pacing and fragmented plot did not inspire confidence in the rest of the series but Greg Bear turned that around.
I was eager to return to Foundation and Chaos everyday and for as long as possible. Well conceived plot, excellent pacing, and strong character development. Bear tackled the robots of Asimov's Galactic Empire head on, while minimizing Benford's influence from the first entry. I'm eager to begin Foundation's Triumph by David Brin.
I was eager to return to Foundation and Chaos everyday and for as long as possible. Well conceived plot, excellent pacing, and strong character development. Bear tackled the robots of Asimov's Galactic Empire head on, while minimizing Benford's influence from the first entry. I'm eager to begin Foundation's Triumph by David Brin.
October 23, 2011
Siguiendo con la trilogía incluida en la lista de libros de 2008 – 2009. Después del anterior, este continúa las aventuras del matemático Hari Seldon. Si del anterior dije que era un poco space opera, este es algo más, y en general entra en una serie de historias con los robots (una constante de Asimov) que me ha gustado menos que el anterior, por lo que se queda con solo 2 estrellas.
June 22, 2022
It's a very good book, it's something I haven't read in a long time.
December 11, 2023
Waardige verderzetting van de foundation serie - schrijfstijl is niet die van Asimov, maar dat is niet de bedoeling. Je komt meer te weten over de context van Hari Seldon zijn leven.
April 19, 2022
Foundations and Chaos by Greg Bear is the second book of the Second Foundation Trilogy based on the works of Isaac Asimov. These 3 volumes were written by 3 different authors with permission from Asimov’s estate. This trilogy covers the time in Hari Seldon’s life (the major driving force in Asimov’s original trilogy) as he is coming up with his science of psychohistory which would allow him to model mankind’s future and that of the galaxy spanning empire, he lived in.
I enjoyed this middle volume much more than the first which I found disappointing in that it more than once went off in directions that I did not feel fit the universe that Asimov had created. While Mr Bear did touch on one of these, he kept it to a minimum that better fit the story he wrote.
He brought much-needed focus to the overall story and pushed it along quite nicely. It felt true to the important characters Asimov had created and added some new ones (characters and plot points) that fit well and I hope that Asimov would have approved of.
I enjoyed this middle volume much more than the first which I found disappointing in that it more than once went off in directions that I did not feel fit the universe that Asimov had created. While Mr Bear did touch on one of these, he kept it to a minimum that better fit the story he wrote.
He brought much-needed focus to the overall story and pushed it along quite nicely. It felt true to the important characters Asimov had created and added some new ones (characters and plot points) that fit well and I hope that Asimov would have approved of.
January 16, 2019
This book adds background and detail to the trial scene at the beginning of Asimov's 'Foundation' and brings some real depth to the character of Hari Seldon who, in the orginal trilogy is given no background at all, despite being the driving force behind the creaion of the Foundation itself. The author does not try to imitate Asimov's style, something I was grateful for as it seldom goes well when writers do that. (Please don't make me think of the abyssmal conclusion to the Dune series!) I throoughly enjoyed reading this work andwould recommend it to anyone who wants a bit more of the Foundation universe.
July 29, 2016
Compared with the novel that came before in this series, this one was phenomenal!
Foundation and Chaos: The Second Foundation Trilogy is clearly a secondary book in a trilogy. It advances the story arc and sets up the crisis to be resolved in the third novel, without actually answering many questions itself. This novel was a faster read than Foundation's Fear (Second Foundation Trilogy, #1), and seemed to dovetail very nicely with the initial vignette in Foundation.
I was thrilled to see Dors back (I like/d her), but equally annoyed to see the return of Joan and Voltaire.
My reading notes follow:
Foundation and Chaos: The Second Foundation Trilogy is clearly a secondary book in a trilogy. It advances the story arc and sets up the crisis to be resolved in the third novel, without actually answering many questions itself. This novel was a faster read than Foundation's Fear (Second Foundation Trilogy, #1), and seemed to dovetail very nicely with the initial vignette in Foundation.
I was thrilled to see Dors back (I like/d her), but equally annoyed to see the return of Joan and Voltaire.
My reading notes follow:
May 31, 2021
We know from Asimov's original Foundation trilogy that one of the seminal events in the life of psychohistorian Hari Seldon was his trial for treason against the Empire, which forced the thousands of academics working on his Encyclopedia Galactica to move from the capital world of Trantor to the remote planet Terminus, where they formed the core of the Foundation that would shorten the Long Night when the Empire collapsed. In this second volume of Greg Bear's Second Foundation trilogy, he fills in many of the details of this period in Seldon's life. While I love revisiting Trantor during this fascinating period in Imperial history, I don't like many of the elements Bear has woven into the story. He brings back characters from other books (by Asimov himself) who I don't think should be included; and continues some memes and characters that he himself invented in the previous volume, Foundation's Fear (1997).
The roles played by many of the characters—the young Emperor Kalyus, his rival counselors Linge Chen and Farad Sinter, and some Dahlite mentalics as well as Seldon's granddaughter Wanda Seldon Palver—are well handled and keep the story moving along. There are other subplots, such as a schism between two "philosophies" which I won't go into because of spoilers, that the books could have very well done without. I had the same complaint about Foundation's Fear. The book could have been half as long and had just as much impact and contribute just as much to the Foundation mythos.
The roles played by many of the characters—the young Emperor Kalyus, his rival counselors Linge Chen and Farad Sinter, and some Dahlite mentalics as well as Seldon's granddaughter Wanda Seldon Palver—are well handled and keep the story moving along. There are other subplots, such as a schism between two "philosophies" which I won't go into because of spoilers, that the books could have very well done without. I had the same complaint about Foundation's Fear. The book could have been half as long and had just as much impact and contribute just as much to the Foundation mythos.
July 6, 2023
Изначально отношение к данному роману было настороженное после полного провала книги Бенфорда. Но, к моему удивлению, начало оказалось весьма многообещающим. Более того, первая половина произведения мне весьма понравилась. Но потом автор наступил на те же грабли, что и Бенфорд. Вновь появились Вольтер и Жанна д'Арк, "воскресла" Дорс Венабили, началось противостояние, как оказалось, многочисленных роботов, обитающих на Транторе и т.п. В целом, если у Азимова в его романах из данной серии всё просто и элегантно, то здесь оказалось запутанно и топорно.
January 27, 2013
Starting in the middle of a series is a crazy idea but read the book. You in a world of low intelligent thanks to a disease that kills any child of high intelligent. One of the main character Klis suffered as a child. Lucky for the robots she and a boy called Brann survived this. The robots they to get these two to help the change of the world.
The story is deep and philosophy like. A bit too deep to read.
The story is deep and philosophy like. A bit too deep to read.
May 29, 2018
Liest sich ganz nett, aber ist doch ohne den Asimov drive. Tatsächlich könnte der Meister ihn selbst geschrieben haben, wenn sein Stil sich weiter verflacht hätte.
Es geht um einen Roboter, der gar nicht mehr an die Gesetze gebunden ist, und mit eigenem Gewissen erkennt, dass das Nullte Gesetz die Menschen entmündigt und böse ist. Das immerhin sehr gut. 5/10
Es geht um einen Roboter, der gar nicht mehr an die Gesetze gebunden ist, und mit eigenem Gewissen erkennt, dass das Nullte Gesetz die Menschen entmündigt und böse ist. Das immerhin sehr gut. 5/10
May 30, 2011
As an original devotee of the series that prompted this and the other two Foundation novels, I thought Bear did quite a good job of capturing the background and characters as well as a believable evolution of the storyline. At the same time, quite readable, which isn't a bad thing.
September 5, 2019
great read...
March 26, 2021
You know Greg Bear is on my good graces when the first chapter of Foundation and Chaos mentions that wormholes are seldom used now. Well, there goes that bad idea from Foundation's Fear.
Foundation and Chaos takes place about 30 years after the events of Foundation's Fear and somewhere between the final chapters of Forward the Foundation and Foundation's Part 1: The Psychohistorians. In the original Foundation there's a trial involving Hari Seldon and Gaal Dornick, and this book offers some context, background and behind the scenes to the whole deal.
And while Greg Bear is no Isaac Asimov, at least the book reads as if it were part of the Foundation universe and not the ramblings of a man who just writes nonsense. It's well-paced and there're new characters to flesh out the story instead of rehashing or rewriting more of Hari Seldon's biography. However, in doing so, some characters are slightly different from what you'd expect, such as Daneel being a "toxic guardian" of humanity, some mentalics being overpowered (maybe in anticipation to The Mule), and a certain female robot obsessed with Seldon.
And there's robots everywhere, way too many robots. And lots of people know about these robots as if this knowledge doesn't open plot holes. Speaking of plot holes, a brain fever that affects children and in some cases grants them mentalic powers? Then there should be a lot of mentalics in the quadrillion inhabitants of the galaxy. Oh, well, I guess the Trantorian pollution contributes to that or whatever.
And because this is the second book in a trilogy, two of the most useless characters ever written show their ugly faces again. Although this time they seem to be added as an aferthought, and I'm thankful for that because the less they show up the better. I imagine Benford telling Bear "Remember to add Voltaire and Joan so the trilogy makes sense" and Bear rolling his eyes and replying "Fine! I'll add them!"
Before I forget, my copy mentions the ship Arrow of Destiny only once but all other instances it's Spear of Glory. Also, there's a few instances where there's mention of "Agis IV" and as far as I know it should be "Agis XIV". Then again, maybe that's just the Kindle edition and a mass paperback doesn't have these errors.
Overall, I enjoyed it a lot and maybe I'm biased because I hate the previous book with a passion. Now I'll read Foundation's Triumph and expect the two sims show their ugly faces once again.
Foundation and Chaos takes place about 30 years after the events of Foundation's Fear and somewhere between the final chapters of Forward the Foundation and Foundation's Part 1: The Psychohistorians. In the original Foundation there's a trial involving Hari Seldon and Gaal Dornick, and this book offers some context, background and behind the scenes to the whole deal.
And while Greg Bear is no Isaac Asimov, at least the book reads as if it were part of the Foundation universe and not the ramblings of a man who just writes nonsense. It's well-paced and there're new characters to flesh out the story instead of rehashing or rewriting more of Hari Seldon's biography. However, in doing so, some characters are slightly different from what you'd expect, such as Daneel being a "toxic guardian" of humanity, some mentalics being overpowered (maybe in anticipation to The Mule), and a certain female robot obsessed with Seldon.
And there's robots everywhere, way too many robots. And lots of people know about these robots as if this knowledge doesn't open plot holes. Speaking of plot holes, a brain fever that affects children and in some cases grants them mentalic powers? Then there should be a lot of mentalics in the quadrillion inhabitants of the galaxy. Oh, well, I guess the Trantorian pollution contributes to that or whatever.
And because this is the second book in a trilogy, two of the most useless characters ever written show their ugly faces again. Although this time they seem to be added as an aferthought, and I'm thankful for that because the less they show up the better. I imagine Benford telling Bear "Remember to add Voltaire and Joan so the trilogy makes sense" and Bear rolling his eyes and replying "Fine! I'll add them!"
Before I forget, my copy mentions the ship Arrow of Destiny only once but all other instances it's Spear of Glory. Also, there's a few instances where there's mention of "Agis IV" and as far as I know it should be "Agis XIV". Then again, maybe that's just the Kindle edition and a mass paperback doesn't have these errors.
Overall, I enjoyed it a lot and maybe I'm biased because I hate the previous book with a passion. Now I'll read Foundation's Triumph and expect the two sims show their ugly faces once again.
January 24, 2019
This book is better written than it's predecessor in the trilogy. It follows the characters more smoothly and one get's a feel for the complexity of what is happening. Unfortunately, the complexity also contributes to the difficulty I had following who the characters actually were. I found myself chapter after chapter flipping back through the book to find a character's name so I would know how to associate them with the current part of the plot. Never the less I found the character's more engaging than some other installments of the epic. Bear's portrait of Seldon is among the best. He seems to have some difficulty writing women. They come across as confusing. Maybe that's a product of Bear's own masculinity, but it doesn't hamper all writers.
The confluence of characters at the crisis of the story bears witness to the complexity built into the cast. The crisis itself became hard to follow, and between the machinations [ahem] of the robots, the politicians, the mentalics both rogue and protagonist, and the main characters the crisis became to protracted and dynamic to give the reader a sense of perspective. The situation is complicated by all the mental manipulation going on among characters. While the crisis was compact, it's presentation was disbursed.
Then again, Voltaire and Joan were back. Not as prominently, and not as luridly, but there still. They did not jar as they did in the previous work, but I was disappointed that they were not gone. I suspect they still aren't, though I can't be sure. The strong role of the robots I found jarring too, but since they've been a part of IA's universe all along, they were a little more tolerable.
Because it's part two of a trilogy, I would find it hard to recommend it as independent reading. In fact, I read it as part of an epic walk through the galactic empire. Some current authors are guarding their creations against fan fiction, and IA might have been wise to do the same. It's hard to call the level of writing these books display fan fiction, but that's really what they are, on a very grand scale. If it lasts, one could see the Foundation becoming an open source sub-genre all its own. In the mean time, endorsed, as this book is, it is part of canon, and therefore an authentic stone in the wall.
The confluence of characters at the crisis of the story bears witness to the complexity built into the cast. The crisis itself became hard to follow, and between the machinations [ahem] of the robots, the politicians, the mentalics both rogue and protagonist, and the main characters the crisis became to protracted and dynamic to give the reader a sense of perspective. The situation is complicated by all the mental manipulation going on among characters. While the crisis was compact, it's presentation was disbursed.
Then again, Voltaire and Joan were back. Not as prominently, and not as luridly, but there still. They did not jar as they did in the previous work, but I was disappointed that they were not gone. I suspect they still aren't, though I can't be sure. The strong role of the robots I found jarring too, but since they've been a part of IA's universe all along, they were a little more tolerable.
Because it's part two of a trilogy, I would find it hard to recommend it as independent reading. In fact, I read it as part of an epic walk through the galactic empire. Some current authors are guarding their creations against fan fiction, and IA might have been wise to do the same. It's hard to call the level of writing these books display fan fiction, but that's really what they are, on a very grand scale. If it lasts, one could see the Foundation becoming an open source sub-genre all its own. In the mean time, endorsed, as this book is, it is part of canon, and therefore an authentic stone in the wall.
March 4, 2024
This, the second of the Second Foundation Trilogy was a particularly interesting and suspenseful story. I really liked Bear’s style. The plot/story line knit well with the original series in many ways. I look forward to how this moves on in the third book of the second trilogy. And I intend to reread the first trilogy soon after I finish this next book. The Foundation series is so long and so involved and it has been so long since I started it, that I need to start again to digest it in more detail. It might be possible that I will read it in another sequence but this book by Bear has me thinking I should read it in the same order as I originally read it, in the order Asimov wrote them. When I recommend the series in the future, which I will, I will recommend to start it with the Robot series and then the Empire series before starting the Foundation part. Still on the fence about that but I wish I had known those stories before attacking the Foundation series. I am in awe of all of it though.
July 27, 2024
Note that Greg Bear is writing very much in the style of Isaac Asimov here. Likewise, David Brin and Gregory Benford had a similar style in their foundation novels - all three forming a new foundation trilogy.
Since these three novels come off reasonably well, and the foundation plot is moved along, I would say that The Good Doctor (aka Isaac Asimov) is somewhat better than most at "posthumous collaborations".
My rating system:
Since Goodreads only allows 1 to 5 stars (no half-stars), you have no option but to be ruthless. I reserve one star for a book that is a BOMB - or poor (equivalent to a letter grade of F, E, or at most D). Progressing upwards, 2 stars is equivalent to C (C -, C or C+), 3 stars (equals to B - or B), 4 stars (equals B+ or A -), and 5 stars (equals A or A+). As a result, I maximize my rating space for good books, and don't waste half or more of that rating space on books that are of marginal quality.
I rated this novel B -, which should be about 2 1/2 stars. Goodreads frowns on fractional stellar phenomena, so I rounded up to 3 stars.
Since these three novels come off reasonably well, and the foundation plot is moved along, I would say that The Good Doctor (aka Isaac Asimov) is somewhat better than most at "posthumous collaborations".
My rating system:
Since Goodreads only allows 1 to 5 stars (no half-stars), you have no option but to be ruthless. I reserve one star for a book that is a BOMB - or poor (equivalent to a letter grade of F, E, or at most D). Progressing upwards, 2 stars is equivalent to C (C -, C or C+), 3 stars (equals to B - or B), 4 stars (equals B+ or A -), and 5 stars (equals A or A+). As a result, I maximize my rating space for good books, and don't waste half or more of that rating space on books that are of marginal quality.
I rated this novel B -, which should be about 2 1/2 stars. Goodreads frowns on fractional stellar phenomena, so I rounded up to 3 stars.
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