User talk:Makaokalani

Archive 2007 - 2009

Placename vote

I have just posted to Wiktionary_talk:Votes/pl-2010-03/Placenames_with_linguistic_information_are_accepted#Explicit_additional_requirements. I am notifying you to speed up the discussion, if any.--Dan Polansky 06:52, 2 April 2010 (UTC)

I've edited the vote, in accordance to your and Mglovesfun's comments. Libraries are closed during Easter, I cannot be back before Tuesday. But the vote may be postponed if there are new problems.--Makaokalani 09:35, 3 April 2010 (UTC)

Etymology of personal names

As you've done much work with both given names and surnames I was wondering if you could enlighten me on a template design decision in this area. Why do the relevant templates ({{given name}} and {{surname}}), which are used on the definition line, include the from= parameter? Wouldn't this information be better put in an etymology section? I asked about this previously, but have had no response yet. Thanks. --Bequw → τ 17:38, 9 April 2010 (UTC)

It's for categorization only. The definition does not change, it's always "A male given name", "A surname". In reality only English names have subcategories that can be taken seriously yet. I'm not sure if subcategories by language of origin make sense for all languages (Japanese, for example), but the template already existed when I came here three years ago. It's a bother that you cannot make a subcategory "English male given names of unknown origin"; the template makes it "from of unknown origin". I've started drafting Wiktionary:About given names and surnames, but I haven't got into categories yet.

As for Osvald, yes, the origin should be in the etymology section. But please, don't change them at random, because sometimes I put it in the definition line when I cannot clearly specify the original form. Like SemperBlotto defines Fowler as "An occupational surname for a hunter of birds", because in the etymological section, he'd have to research and specify the Middle English word. A stub like that is better than no etymology at all.--Makaokalani 12:20, 10 April 2010 (UTC)

Thanks. Hopefully what I wrote in response at Wiktionary talk:Etymology#Inline etymologies is decent.--Bequw → τ 20:48, 11 April 2010 (UTC)

Wiktionary:Votes/pl-2010-03/Placenames with linguistic information are accepted

Hi,

The vote you created, which I support, requires a few clarifications and a clearer definition of what type of placenames should be included. Please address and good luck!. --Anatoli 02:15, 16 April 2010 (UTC)

• We should address the criticism in the comments, brush out a new proposal, announce it in the BP for feedback, and reiterate the vote as soon as possible. --Ivan Štambuk 19:08, 8 May 2010 (UTC)

I'll try to think about it. How did I ever get mixed up with place names? Or surnames? --Makaokalani 14:16, 11 May 2010 (UTC)

Lykke

Hi Makaokalani. You made Lykke a long time ago, with the primary sense "A male given name , today mostly appearing as a second given name". Do you have any references for this, because I think it is wrong. "Lykke" is a Danish surname, that often appears as a middle name. I haven't done any research, but my feeling is that the primary sense should be "a female given name" with the secondary sense "a Danish surname".--Leo Laursen – (talk · contribs) 11:06, 31 May 2010 (UTC)

For some references (in Danish) see w:da:Lykke, w:da:Lykke (pigenavn), w:da:Lykke (efternavn).--Leo Laursen – (talk · contribs) 11:11, 31 May 2010 (UTC)

Thanks for the feedback, I wish native speakers would contact me more often. I have added the surname sense and defined male name as "dated". According to this site, 62 Danish men had it as a first name, 5,152 as a second given name, and so on, and 2,644 women had it as first name by 2005. The order of definitions is not by importance, often it's chronological, and surnames were not quite presentable when this entry was created.

By the way: are all Danish given names and surnames of the common gender? Should I add the gender to the entries? --Makaokalani 12:07, 1 June 2010 (UTC)

OK, very good. I would have forsworn that "Lykke" could be a male given name, but with 62 having it as their first name, it clearly is. The site does mentions that, the difficulty in differentiating between a second given name and a middle name, is a source of error.

Given names and surnames are of the common gender. As a Dane I don't see any reason for adding it to the entries, but it might not be so obvious for non-Danes. Names are never inflected, so it is only for determining the definite article in relation to adjectives, e.g. "er dette den unge Anne?" ("is this the young Anne?").--Leo Laursen – (talk · contribs) 15:08, 1 June 2010 (UTC)

Names

Did I miss something? I thought we put all these under English sections. Ƿidsiþ 15:04, 1 June 2010 (UTC)

I don't think Sarkozy or Berlusconi are English surnames. See my message in User talk:Atitarev.--Makaokalani 15:13, 1 June 2010 (UTC)

If they're used in English context, they're English, IMO. There's really no consensus on this issue, but you can't just delete English sections. --Yair rand (talk) 15:15, 1 June 2010 (UTC)

You should probably take this to the Beer Parlour before you make all these changes. Ƿidsiþ 15:15, 1 June 2010 (UTC)

OK - I'll discuss it later, no more time today. I did not remove any information, I just changed the format.--Makaokalani 15:19, 1 June 2010 (UTC)

A source on this etymology?

Sorry to ask a non-project related question on your User page, but I was wondering if you could cite a source for the etymology you gave for the french personal name Maeva? Gaiacarra 13:25, 26 July 2010 (UTC)

I have added references and a quotation to the entry Maeva. Your question is certainly related to this dictionary project:-) --Makaokalani 14:22, 29 July 2010 (UTC)

Toponyms

Thanks for your contributions to the Finnish section of Wiktionary. Do you know of a list of Finnish toponyms that tells whether they are declined as an "internal" versus "external"? For example, Seinäjoella versus Helsingissä. I'm aware that rivers, lakes, and other bodies of water receive external type declension. See also Wikipedia:Toponyms of Finland. ~ heyzeuss 16:30, 7 September 2010 (UTC)

Ritva Korhonen: Alastarolla Ylistarossa. Suomen asutusnimet ja niiden taivutus. Valtion painatuskeskus, Helsinki 1990, ISBN 951-9475-72-9. There's supposed to be a web version somewhere, you might try googling asutusnimihakemisto kielitoimiston sanakirja, but the book really says it all. --Makaokalani 11:17, 10 September 2010 (UTC)

cognate

A minor point, but it's "cognate with", not "cognate to". Ƿidsiþ 14:08, 1 December 2010 (UTC)

Aren't they both right? To cite a truly authoritative source, the examples in cognate use "to".--Makaokalani 14:58, 3 December 2010 (UTC)

Category:Transliteration of personal names‎

This looks a bit odd to me, what's it for? Mglovesfun (talk) 14:11, 8 December 2010 (UTC)

For transliterations of given names and surnames, for example, Latvian Džons in Category:lv:Transliteration of English male given names ( no -wrong ), English Ivan in Category:Transliteration of Russian male given names (right ), and so on. We have dozens of entries like this without a proper category. See Category:zh-cn:English male given names - I would have liked it, so short, but it seems impossible since a POS category cannot be a parent of a topic category and English categories would have to begin with "en:". Any comments are welcome.--Makaokalani 14:17, 8 December 2010 (UTC)

Oops, I realized that I'd have to edit 81 Chinese surname entries to change the category names, so I'll keep the short names, and replace "en:" by "Transliteration of". If it bothers somebody, he's welcome to change all the short names into long ones. --Makaokalani 16:52, 10 December 2010 (UTC)

Continued here: User_talk:EncycloPetey#Categories:Transliteration. What's your opinion? --Greek-Trans (talk) 17:22, 19 September 2012 (UTC)

Latvian months

Hello, please can you check entries of Category:lv:Months — This unsigned comment was added by Parttimer (talk • contribs) at 21:08, 22 December 2010.

They look fine, according to my Latvian-Finnish dictionary. --Makaokalani 11:03, 23 December 2010 (UTC)

Poll on formatting of etymologies

I would like to know your preference as regards the use of "<" vs "from" in the formatting of etymologies in Wiktionary, whatever that preference is. Even explicit statement of indifference would be nice. You can state your preference in the currently running poll: WT:BP#Poll: Etymology and the use of less-than symbol. I am sending you this notification, as you took part on some of the recent votes, so chances are you could be interested in the poll. The poll benefits from having as many participants as possible, to be as representative as possible. Feel free to ignore this notification. --Dan Polansky 10:49, 14 February 2011 (UTC)

Vote on formatting of etymologies

There is the vote Wiktionary:Votes/pl-2011-02/Deprecating less-than symbol in etymologies, which would benefit from your participation, even if only in the role of an abstainer. Right now, the results of the vote do not quite mirror the results of the poll that has preceded the vote. There is a chance that the vote will not pass. The vote, which I thought would be a mere formality, has turned out to be a real issue. You have taken part on the poll that preceded the vote, which is why I have sent you this notification. --Dan Polansky 08:26, 10 March 2011 (UTC)

Wiktionary:Votes/2011-10/Categories of names 3

Because you voted in Wiktionary:Votes/2011-07/Categories of names, I'm informing you of this new vote.​—msh210℠ (talk) 01:55, 17 October 2011 (UTC)

English surnames not in subcategories

Until a final solution is found you can work with this list. --flyax 12:42, 25 October 2011 (UTC)

Thank you, Flyax. You're a brick.--Makaokalani 12:11, 28 October 2011 (UTC)

Jewson

Hi there. Have you any idea on the etymology of this surname (apart from the obvious). It is well-known in the UK because it is the name of a company that sells building materials. SemperBlotto 15:09, 17 November 2011 (UTC)

Added.--Makaokalani 15:12, 17 November 2011 (UTC)

Nouns and proper nouns

Hey, I've started a discussion in the Beer Parlor. I'd really like to know the community views on this. Any additional input would be great. Thanks. – Krun 13:46, 11 December 2011 (UTC)

Transliterations of surnames

Hi. I don't remember, is there a consensus on how to format and categorize transliterations of foreign surnames? I mean entries like (deprecated template usage) Քլինթոն (Kʻlintʻon) and (deprecated template usage) Poutine. --Vahag 12:02, 6 February 2012 (UTC)

No consensus. To me, "Clinton" seems OK as a definition since it's an English name, but for non-English names I'd use A transliteration of the Xxxn surname Y. I've created new transliteration categories with as few new parent categories as possible. During the half year I've been away Mglovesfun and Pereru have both used different parent categories from my system, which was confusing enough to begin with. Some day somebody will cry, "Topic categories cannot be listen in POS categories!" But never mind as long as the transliterations are listed somewhere.--Makaokalani (talk) 11:20, 3 September 2012 (UTC)

Help with template

Is working on a template in my sandbox for use on another Wiktionary. Will you help me by doing so that template in my sandbox (User:Trade/Template), giving example. Rhymes: -ɪsən, instead of (deprecated use of |lang= parameter) Rhymes: -ɪsən ie. removing the link. Has both, the template in the sandbox, and the related doc. Good day here. --Trade (talk) 11:46, 3 September 2012 (UTC)

I'm sorry, but I don't understand anything about templates.--Makaokalani (talk) 11:50, 3 September 2012 (UTC)

Have you an idea of ​​who to do?--Trade (talk) 12:27, 3 September 2012 (UTC)

Please see Wiktionary:Grease pit#A request I cannot meet.--Makaokalani (talk) 12:29, 3 September 2012 (UTC)

Male name Odd

One of the characters’ names on the French television show w:Code Lyoko is “Odd, and there’s no evidence in the show that he is Norwegian. So, having an English entry for the name wouldn’t be that… uh… odd….

〜britannic124 (talk) 02:23, 15 February 2013 (UTC)

That would make it French, not English. But names of fictional characters are not accepted unless cited three times outside the fictional universe, as explained in Wiktionary:FICTION. There are no Frenchmen named Odd according to this website. --Makaokalani (talk) 13:41, 19 February 2013 (UTC)

"too speculative"?

Hey! Watch here [1]--Sentree (talk) 18:50, 27 February 2013 (UTC)

Sorry!

I didn't know whether or not you made separate articles for dialects! Sorry for the trouble! Porokello (talk) 02:42, 8 July 2013 (UTC)

{{ja-romaji}}

FYI, the {{ja-romaji}} template has been changed; see my bot-edit to Rina. —Ruakh_TALK 16:46, 8 September 2013 (UTC)

Names, again

I know you share my passion for names. I have started a discussion at Wiktionary:Information desk and you may want to weigh in. --Vahag (talk) 13:25, 21 December 2013 (UTC)

Michael

Hi. Why did you do this? Etymology 2 certainly passes CFI and should be included. --Vahag (talk) 19:31, 6 February 2014 (UTC)

Because, in my opinion, it will lead to chaos in the long run. I also reverted your edit of August for the same reason (adding quotations etc, so please don't blindly revert). Whether German Michael passes CFI for English terms is controversial. Three editors here (Mzajac, Yair rand and Lmaltier) claim that is does, in every debate about given names, so nothing is ever decided. But many others support the common sense definition that an English name is a name borne by English speaking persons. When Michael Schumacher or, say, Sauli Niinistö, are mentioned in an English sentence, the speaker is temporarily code-switching to German or Finnish. If you add an English definition for all the Michaels and Augusts, will an average user understand it at all? Will he really look for the Armenian rendering of German Michael in the English section? Listing it as a Descendant in the German section seems more logical, and quite uncontroversial. Otherwise, nothing will stop people adding Finnish or Albanian sections for all the Michaels (an English name, a Danish name, a German name...)

Also, Michael and August are very common English words. I can understand making an English entry for a very rare foreign name that doesn't exist in English, though it's not ideal either. But, please, pages for common names that exist in dozens of languages, like Michael, Maria, Robert are complicated enough without repeating all information in the English entry.--Makaokalani (talk) 15:23, 7 February 2014 (UTC)

Your views are very unorthodox and unconstitutional. “All words in all languages”, remember? What code switching occurs in the Russian sentence (deprecated template usage) Михаэль Баллак — хороший футболист (Mixaelʹ Ballak — xorošij futbolist). Are you saying we shouldn't include the word (deprecated template usage) Михаэль (Mixaelʹ)? It is a word like any other word, with attested citations, etymology, pronunciation, inflection, etc. We may disagree on how to define it but clearly it passes WT:CFI and should be included just like (deprecated template usage) Михаил (Mixail), the Russian name. How's that different from (deprecated template usage) Michael vs (deprecated template usage) Michael? It's not.

Complexity of pages and perceived usefulness are irrelevant. What I did was legal. And useful, I believe. --Vahag (talk) 19:03, 7 February 2014 (UTC)

Of course (deprecated template usage) Михаэль (Mixaelʹ) passes the CFI and should be included! I'm very grateful to you for adding entries like that. The spoken Russian sentence does include code-switching, but the written sentence doesn't, so the Russian transliterations need entries. I'm only protesting about the placement of your list of transliterations. Complexity of pages and usefulness are relevant. The wiktionary rules have been designed for words, not names, so the arrangement of name entries should be pragmatic. An entry for German Michael in the English section only duplicates what's been said in the German section. It clutters up the page. Why isn't the list of ====Descendants==== in the German section good enough for you? Any person who looks for the Russian form of German Michael must be bilingual at least, so surely he's smart enough to look up the German section?--Makaokalani (talk) 12:54, 8 February 2014 (UTC)

I think this question will be settled when Wiktionary finally devises a sensible way to treat names. Of course, me and you will be dead by then, so let's lay this question to rest. I was just experimenting and I do not plan on adding 30 entries for Maria. --Vahag (talk) 21:59, 8 February 2014 (UTC)

Kumiko

How is this not English? —Μετάknowledge^{discuss/deeds} 05:21, 22 February 2014 (UTC)

It is English, the transliteration of a Japanese given name. But since (for some mysterious reason) Japanese romaji entries are accepted here, we have no English entries for Japanese given names, as far as I know. I thought you might not be aware of it. The romaji entries used to be more informative, like [2] this. But if you want to make English entries as well, you do have a point. Where else could you put a table of Arabic, Russian etc. transliterations? They are not ====Descendants==== of the romaji form. And there are spellings like Yoko vs. Yōko, Junichiro vs. Jun'ichirō. I will put back the English section for you. Template:given name should not be used, since Kumiko is not the name of English-speaking persons. (Surnames can be genuinely English since descendants of immigrants usually keep them and create an English pronunciation: /yæməˈmoʊtoʊ/ etc.) Haplology has made good entries for Japanese men's names, but women's names are mostly missing. I thought it would be a simple mechanical task to add the ones in Special:WantedPages, but it seems that 4RMO has added very rare kanji spellings, while quite common kanji spellings are missing (e.g. Kumiko can also be written with two kanji). Please do keep adding women's names if you know something about them. --Makaokalani (talk) 17:27, 24 February 2014 (UTC)

• Your comment, “Kumiko is not the name of English-speaking persons”, seems a bit off the mark -- there are plenty of English speakers, even folks born and raised in the US, with the given name of (deprecated template usage) Kumiko. C.f. google:"Kumiko Jones", google:"Kumiko Smith", google:"Kumiko Johnson", etc.

Further Googling finds that (deprecated template usage) Kumiko was the name given to six babies in the US in 1974, according to http://names.mongabay.com/baby-names/application/top-F-US-1974.html. It's certainly not one of the most popular names in the country, but it is in use. ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │ Tala við mig 23:09, 24 February 2014 (UTC)

See Wiktionary:About given names and surnames#The language statement of a name.--Makaokalani (talk) 14:25, 5 March 2014 (UTC)

Indeed. And I note a number of relevant things here that suggest it is acceptable for us to have an English entry for (deprecated template usage) Kumiko:

• This section is disputed.

Disputed is a hint that this might not be a cut-and-dried policy.

• 1. There is a well-known pronunciation, phonetically suited to the "new" language.

The pronunciation of (deprecated template usage) Kumiko wanders around in US settings -- I've heard /ˈkumiˌkoʊ/, not too far from the JA, but then I've also heard /kʊˈmikoʊ/.

• 3. Descendants of immigrants change their mother tongue but keep the old spelling of their surname.

This concerns surnames, but let's assume it applies to given names as well, for sake of argument. I've run into folks in the US who don't speak but a stray word or two of Japanese and who have Japanese-derived given names. Moreover, there _is_ no way of keeping the old spelling in English, since English speakers (as a general rule) cannot read kana or kanji.

In general, I think cases of given names, as bestowed on children born in a linguistic and especially script environment other than the source language for that name, fall somewhat outside the bounds of [[Wiktionary:About given names and surnames#The language statement of a name]]. The name Kumiko as spelled here cannot be said to be Japanese, not least as this name would not be recognized correctly in many contexts in Japan. For example, many banks in Japan only accept double-byte characters when entering a name for an account. In extreme cases, Japanese businesses may use back-end databases that assume that a name (either surname or given name) will not have more than four or five characters (or at least, there have been such cases in the past, which I've personally run into).

For other examples of given names in English that originate from other languages, see also (deprecated template usage) Gunter, (deprecated template usage) Igor, (deprecated template usage) Yoshi, (deprecated template usage) Mei, (deprecated template usage) Faizan, (deprecated template usage) Ogun, (deprecated template usage) Sandeep, etc. ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │ Tala við mig 19:10, 5 March 2014 (UTC)

I've admitted that an English entry is acceptable, but not a definition as an English name. The rules apply to whatever form a foreigner's name is represented in another language, transliteration or not; but *3 doesn't apply to given names, only surnames (chosen vs. inherited). However I cannot stop anyone from inventing new rules. Everybody has a name, so everybody feels like an expert. The latest futile attempt to find consensus is here: Wiktionary:Information desk#December 2013: Question about given names and surnames. You can find a dozen other Kafkaesque discussions during the last five years if you are interested. I would rather concentrate on something else.--Makaokalani (talk) 17:42, 11 March 2014 (UTC)

Lindsey

Hi,

I'm conducting a little historical research about my local area of Lincolnshire and was reading about the place names' etymology of both Lincoln and Lindsey. (The reason for my writing is that I believe you created the Lindsey entry). I'm sure that I have read elsewhere (unfortunately I cannot find it) that Lindsey and Lincoln do not come from the same origin, and that whilst the 'lin' of Lincoln comes from the Brythonic word for 'pool' the 'lin' in Lindsey comes from the word Linden, as in the tree. This, it said, was due to the fact that the Lincolnshire Wolds were, as wolds/wealds were/are, covered in trees, with the predominant tree in the Lindsey area being the Linden/Lime tree.

Of course this may be entirely wrong and Lindsey and Lincoln may well have the same origin, but I was wondering if you knew any more about this or could shed any light on the matter.

Many thanks, --Abc26324 (talk) 21:14, 18 March 2014 (UTC)

According to the best dictionaries, Lincoln and Lindsey both derive from the Brythonic word for 'pool'. That is based on the way the names are recorded in early documents. Many other English place names, such as Lindley and Lindsell, derive from Old English lind "lime tree". --Makaokalani (talk) 09:22, 20 March 2014 (UTC)