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"Freedom of expression is the matrix, the indispensable condition, of nearly every other form of freedom." — Benjamin N. Cardozo (discuss)
On this page, sections containing at least 1 signed contributions are automatically archived, if the last contribution is at least 21 days old.
Wikimania Scholarships
The call for applications for Wikimania Scholarships to attend Wikimania 2010 in Gdansk, Poland (July 9-11) is now open. The Wikimedia Foundation offers Scholarships to pay for selected individuals' round trip travel, accommodations, and registration at the conference.
To apply, visit the Wikimania 2010scholarships information page, click the secure link available there, and fill out the form to apply.
For additional information, please visit the Scholarships information and FAQ pages:
Latest comment: 14 years ago9 comments7 people in discussion
Hi all,
It seems to me that the best way to improve (and add to) the content on WikiVersity is to have a few students currently enrolled in "real life" versions of the courses we are offering work under a mentor as they go along. It is incredibly time consuming to produce/improve content in parallel with a post-college life. However, during an "in-college" life, this exercise is mutually beneficial - generating material is one of the best ways to help the student really learn the material (if you can't explain it, you don't know it!), prepare for exams, etc. At the same time, they could let WikiVersity know which topics were explained unsatisfactorily, which topics could have benefited from additional images, etc.
My suggestion would be for WikiVersity to reach out to universities calling for this type of volunteer. It seems to me that it would only take one or two iterations (less than a year!) to produce some incredible material.
Students enrolled in brick and mortar universities are already contributing here, and people are already reaching out to brick and mortar universities. The mentor concept already exists, just needs people to do it. Take a look at my user page for an example. -- darklama 16:07, 21 June 2010 (UTC)Reply
I guess I'm saying it should be formalized more than it is. I'd like to see a page that says "A, B, and C are currently students taking Physics I and contributing to the content of this page. Click here if you are also taking Physics I and would like to help (maybe 1-4 hours /week). Click here to mentor a student.". Darklama - I see on your user page that you are a "C Progamming Mentor", but is there a list of your students? Which pages are the working on? Which classes are they currently taking? Daviddoria16:59, 21 June 2010 (UTC)Reply
Some pages already include a list of participants that wish to study the subject and wish to help contribute to works on the subject. My main goal with the mentor system is to clearly identify people willing to answer questions about a subject and than to list them on related pages so students can find them. Right now it is somewhat common for people to turn to custodians for help for site-related issues, and this is sort of an extension of that where people can know who they might be able to turn to find answers for their other questions. -- darklama 23:25, 21 June 2010 (UTC)Reply
Although the issue is not new and contributions from "real" schools occasionally appear on the site, it would be good to know how many people (i.e. teachers/students) contributed to WV as a part of a "real" class. Page listing these, maybe with some description and put it to a prominent place (main page?) would help to advertise the possibility and WV in general. --Gbaor10:18, 23 June 2010 (UTC)Reply
Campus ambassadors and the Public Policy Initiative
The PPI is a Foundation-sponsored project (supported by a dedicated grant) to organize knowledge about public policy topics, from university courses around the world. It is organizing campus ambassadors who can help profs learn how to effectively integrate their classes into Wikimedia projects and vice-versa.
This is one good place to start building a body of student volunteers. Most of the ambassadors will be students... it may be worth combining these ideas with a discussion with Annie and Pete who are organizing that part of the PPI - and with the initial ambassadors that are so discovered. –SJ+02:22, 8 July 2010 (UTC)Reply
Just so you know, I already talked to various people on WMF staff who were approved as part of that process and they said they want to devote all efforts to Wikipedia and wont be putting any effort towards other projects for now. Ottava Rima (talk) 02:50, 8 July 2010 (UTC)Reply
Counseling
This counseling page is effectively the syllabus for the masters program I hope to be enrolled in this fall. As time goes on, I will be (hopefully) fleshing it out with my notes in the sparse wiki format that I like so much. The curricula is didactic and meant to deal with specific problems: societal stress, immigration, school, community and workplace issues.--JohnBessatalk15:54, 27 July 2010 (UTC)Reply
Proposal to create a Cite namespace
Latest comment: 14 years ago1 comment1 person in discussion
I would like people to take 3 days to discuss on the talk page both policies, and I would like at least 7 days following that discussion to vote on the matter. I believe that at least 10 people will be needed to ensure that the policies are passed without any problem. Ottava Rima (talk) 16:27, 8 July 2010 (UTC)Reply
Sorry, it should be "at least" 3 days, meaning, I wont push for a vote before three days nor would I push for a close of a vote before 7 days after the start of the vote. I don't want a mishap like what happened just recently regarding the determining of a page a "policy" without a clear and structured process. Ottava Rima (talk) 17:00, 8 July 2010 (UTC)Reply
I unblocked after a 24 hour period. I then warned JWS about continuing such behavior and asked him to start the Community Review on himself. Ottava Rima (talk) 20:55, 12 July 2010 (UTC)Reply
Jtneill, this Colloquium is not really Acropolis of WV where its community members including myself are duly informed of what they should take seriously here, is it? That is to say, much earlier than yours, it should have made at least a reference or link to the bloody User talk:JWSchmidt that started two weeks ago, I greatly regret, not to mention what's going on there that long that harshly. Are they bullying him in the corner?
It sounds somewhat laughable to insist that policy pages can be edited as ever or readily as any page. Yeah, they could unless explicitly ruled out. Nulla poena sine lege (No penalty without a law.) So maybe more laughable to warn and block the editor instead of locking and keeping such pages from too frequent changes made by anyone. Maybe still more laughable to unblock the blocked editor and warn: "Ye should recognize (or confess in practice) what's wrong with ye!" my translation of an old Korean cliche corrupt officials often yelled, reading "ne joe-reul ne-ga allyeotta!" (네 죄를 네가 알렸다!) All My Way of making you laugh at all.
Yes, it's ludicrous the extent to which corrupt officials will go when they are trapped, like Javert, in the act of abusing the system of laws to carry on a vendetta against someone who is protesting an egregious miscarriage of justice. --Montana Mouse 09:02, 13 July 2010 (UTC)
Community Review
Latest comment: 14 years ago7 comments3 people in discussion
Notice: The behavior of all Wikiversity Custodians is now the subject of a community review. The major problem is that a few sysops continue to abuse their power and positions of trust. Other Custodians fail to follow Wikiversity policy so as to prevent further disruption of Wikiversity by those who abuse their power. Now is the time for all honest Wikiversity participants to come to the aid of Wikiversity. --JWSchmidt14:24, 15 July 2010 (UTC)Reply
The community review now includes some specific proposals for ways to improve Wikiversity policies and procedures. Community discussion of the proposals is needed. --JWSchmidt12:05, 20 July 2010 (UTC)Reply
Update: Moulton was blocked again. Ottava Rima imposed the block and claimed that he blocked Moulton because Moulton was banned by the Wikiversity community, but he has provided no evidence to support that claim. The new block is under community review. --JWSchmidt03:13, 27 July 2010 (UTC)Reply
Note from Cormaggio
Latest comment: 14 years ago31 comments7 people in discussion
(Regarding recent discussions about Moulton and other things on this page and here and here...)
Moulton has repeatedly shown that he is incapable of resisting causing unnecessary and disruptive drama. I don't know why people are now suggesting that, if unblocked, things will somehow be any different. I also don't know why people are suggesting that there being a global block on Moulton means that there is some leeway with a local unblock (which, I assume, is technically impossible). Moulton's block was not done 'from afar', but was discussed extensively by the Wikiversity community, with no discernible support from the community to remove the block (see, eg, Wikiversity:Community_Review/Status_of_Moulton#Possible_options). Moulton's block has been problematic only because we didn't at the time have sufficient policies in place to deal with his brand of drama. (I'm not sure we have them at present either - and that's still problematic, as has been evident in Jimbo's intervention in the Ethical Breaching furore.) But Moulton has been given so many chances to work productively here - and blown them all - that I find it pretty incredible that we're still having this discussion.
I'd like to make a contribution to a more general discussion - about what is appropriate and inappropriate activity/behaviour in Wikiversity. I'd like to ask people here to think about (though not necessarily answer right here) the question: what do you want to achieve in Wikiversity? And related to that question: what practices do we need to define or develop in order to realise that vision? My take is that Wikiversity has been set up to develop a learning community, as well as to develop learning materials - and therefore needs robust processes, practices and policies to foster a sense of mutual understanding and an atmosphere conducive to collaboration. And, in my opinion, building a learning community necessarily entails defining boundaries about what is acceptable and unacceptable.
Does noone else find it worrying that Moulton asserts he has "an unalienable right to participate, by the very definition of Action Research"? (I do: people have a right to participate until they break the trust of the community.) Do people feel it is appropriate for JWSchmidt to continue being so aggressive in any discussion concerning authority and/or boundaries? (I don't, and I will plainly state that I believe JWSchmidt has been allowed to dominate such discussions by trolling.) I believe that if Wikiversity is to survive and flourish - which to me looks increasingly precarious, since the English Wikiversity is widely perceived as being dominated by trolls - then it needs to get serious about how it is to facilitate a learning community. Getting serious doesn't mean stopping having fun - rather, it means trying to make Wikiversity an enjoyable and encouraging place to work and learn.
Essentially, I believe that unblocking Moulton and inviting more drama would be a step backwards. Developing a clear sense of purpose and methodology in building a learning community - informed partly by dramas of the past, but without reigniting them - would be a major step forward. Cormaggiotalk15:04, 19 July 2010 (UTC)Reply
I agree 100% on Moulton. Moulton's refusal to give up using people's real life names and to move on from 2 year old disputes was enough to show to me that he stop the problematic behavior. There are no rights to participate, and Moulton likes to assume rights that don't exist and demand for "contracts" but he cannot abide by the most simplistic of contracts. Ottava Rima (talk) 15:12, 19 July 2010 (UTC)Reply
Cormaggio, Moulton participated constructively at Wikiversity and then was viciously harassed by Wikipedians who came here and it was the Wikipedians who disrupted this project. Moulton was subjected to a bad block, made against community consensus. In an atmosphere of intimidation and fear, Moulton was subjected to some show trials and not given anything close to a fair hearing. "But Moulton has been given so many chances to work productively here - and blown them all" <-- Please list the Wikiversity policies that Moulton has violated. How does being subjected to rules and enforcement from another website amount to being given even one chance? Cormaggio, is it your intention to continue the bad practice of using rules from Wikipedia as a means to prevent Moulton from participating here? "they break the trust of the community" <-- Cormaggio, do you mean by sending a wiki hitman from Wikipedia to get a Wikiversity community member banned from Wikiversity? Cormaggio, do you mean by imposing a bad block, made against community consensus? Do you mean by intimidating the Wikiversity community by making threats against the continued existence of the project? Cormaggio, do you mean by publishing false accusations against me and using those false accusations to "justify" removing my custodianship, acting outside of the due process of Wikiversity policy? "unblocking Moulton and inviting more drama" <-- Wiki drama is caused by imposing bad blocks and bans on people and by those in positions of responsibility who act outside of Wikiversity policy. Moulton is not the source of drama, he is just an easy target for people who think the banhammer is an educational tool. Cormaggio, Please leave Moulton alone and let him continue his participation here as he peacefully did before he was targeted for elimination by outsiders from Wikipedia. Cormaggio, how can you act in this way to eliminate a scholar from participation at Wikiversity while ignoring those who have tormented him? --JWSchmidt15:31, 19 July 2010 (UTC)Reply
"stop the problematic behavior" <-- Ottava Rima, the way ahead is to develop needed policies like Wikiversity:Privacy policy, not punish someone who has violated no policy. We could have had a policy two years ago before Jimbo arrived, but certain people disrupted the development of needed policies. What about the rule of law? Why must Wikiversity be run like a witch hunt? Is using the name of a fellow Wikiversity participant really a problem? Has anyone actually been hurt or have a few people just used that as an excuse to game the system and eliminate Moulton? --JWSchmidt15:54, 19 July 2010 (UTC)Reply
What matters is what can be done now, not what could of been done two years ago. If you keep focusing on what could of happened two years ago, another two years will pass before you know it. When a person continues to use the real name of a fellow Wikiversity participant after requesting that they stop, yes that really is a problem even if nobody is hurt by it. -- darklama 16:19, 19 July 2010 (UTC)Reply
"When a person continues to use the real name of a fellow Wikiversity participant after requesting that they stop, yes that really is a problem even if nobody is hurt by it." <-- Not in any authentic learning community. Why can't we use the names of fellow Wikiversity community members? No harm, no foul. If someone really wants anonymity then they can create an account that they have not linked to their real world identity. --JWSchmidt16:32, 19 July 2010 (UTC)Reply
There is always a way to link an anonymous person to their real world identity. How about because you have no right to use a person's real name? How about because you have no right to determine what is no harm? How about because you have no right to determine what is not harm for another person? -- darklama 17:00, 19 July 2010 (UTC)Reply
Moulton doesn't need a policy to do what I ask. He just doesn't want to do it at all. By the way, one need only see SB Johnny's threats to "ruin me" through harassing me irl, contacting people I know, etc, to know that Moulton's history of spreading personal information on others is severely problematic. Ottava Rima (talk) 17:04, 19 July 2010 (UTC)Reply
Moulton was viciously harassed by Wikipedians who followed him into the real world. Are you saying that we all have no defense against anonymous wiki thugs? Why not go after the thugs rather than Moulton? --JWSchmidt17:17, 19 July 2010 (UTC)Reply
The fact that others would leave Moulton defenseless against a gang of thugs is exactly why I must be "so aggressive", as Cormaggio put it. If I wasn't, I could not live with myself. I guess here in this "civilized" learning community it is just up to the old scholars to defend themselves. Is that what Wikiversity has to teach the world? --JWSchmidt17:44, 19 July 2010 (UTC)Reply
By provoking Moulton to stoop to such lows, they won. Don't you see that? They caused him to cross a line that defeats any argument he could ever make and destroys any chance to be listened to in the future. The only way he can recover is to leave that area. Ottava Rima (talk) 20:51, 19 July 2010 (UTC)Reply
"stoop to such lows" <-- Ottava Rima, please go to Wikiversity:Community Review/Problematic actions/Moulton#Moulton and describe what you mean by "such lows". And this time don't create a show trial. Let Moulton defend himself against your accusations. Don't turn this into a witch hunt this time. I'd much rather have people collaborate to make needed guidelines like Wikiversity:Privacy policy and make them official. I called for that to be done two years ago. Why can't we just do it? And I really think the way to do it is let Moulton help. He has much experience with online learning communities. Why must he be excluded because some people know how to game the system and pretend that it is a crime to use their name? Moulton can help make sure that Wikiversity is set up in a sensible way. Wikiversity does not have to be a clone of Wikipedia. Why ignore critics and warnings about the weaknesses of our ideas? Can't we listen to Moulton? Is it just easier to reach for the banhammer? Every time someone clubs him on the head he wins and Wikiversity looks more ridiculous. In third grade someone called you a name and you got mad. Now Moulton calls you by your name and you get mad? Does that mean we've now reached second grade? Let it go and look for ways to work with him. Moulton could be a great asset to this community if people would stop taunting him. --JWSchmidt21:18, 19 July 2010 (UTC)Reply
Bringing up people's real life identities and the rest is a low and unacceptable behavior. You have been told that multiple times, as has Moulton. Ottava Rima (talk) 23:00, 19 July 2010 (UTC)Reply
Calling out the names of shady characters wearing hooded sheets whilst engaging in corrupt and reprehensible practices is a time-proven method of arresting such abuses. —Barry Kort 00:15, 20 July 2010 (UTC)
I'd also agree with the general theory, "don't kill" but if I was on a jury I might be persuaded by evidence to give a verdict of justifiable homicide. In the case of Moulton I believe he should have the chance to defend himself against all charges, call witnesses in his own defense, cross-examine his accusers. You know, it is called justice. Go to Wikiversity:Community Review/Problematic actions/Moulton#Moulton and make your accusations, but let Moulton defend himself through a process of just practices. Wikiversity is not a place for the kind of show trials that Moulton has been subjected to. I think you know the unacceptable behavior that Moulton was subjected to by his tormentors at Wikipedia and those tormenters followed him here and caused disruption. I defend Moultons right to defend himself and I want Wikiversity to give Moulton a fair chance to defend himself against his accusers. This is not Wikipedia and Wikipedia policy is not in effect here. I favor the creation of a privacy policy that protects anonymous editors and protects people like Moulton from thugs who hide behind their anonymity. --JWSchmidt00:11, 20 July 2010 (UTC)Reply
Okay, let me try another approach based on your fixation on the above language. Obviously, you aren't in a power or political position to determine what is fair, what wikiversity is meant to be, and the rest. Instead, you have been shown over the past two years that both you and Moulton are at the mercy of fickle admin who rely on arbitrary decisions. So, instead of claiming what should be, focus on what is. I provided the criteria that -I-, as a fickle admin relying on arbitrary decisions, would need to perform an unblock as a whim. You can say that is unjust or not right all you want, but it is how it is, and you can agree to the terms or not. Ottava Rima (talk) 01:20, 20 July 2010 (UTC)Reply
Precisely so. Ottava admits that he and the other custodians have knowingly and intentionally set up an unjust and corrupt governance regime, so as to learn (by direct experience) how I or JWS will handle such an exceptional situation. And I have responded by adopting the practices taught by Henry David Thoreau, Mohandas K. Gandhi, and Martin Luther King — namely civil disobedience. To the best of my knowledge, those are the ethical best practices under the current problematic situation. Moulton01:46, 20 July 2010 (UTC)Reply
To continue with your logic: in this fascist state, civil disobedience is still disobedience, and disobedience results in excessive blocks and a burnt earth policy. So, you can obey or you can be responsible with us that there are tons of innocent people harmed. Are you immune to the guilt caused by your unwillingness to stop using people's real names? Ottava Rima (talk) 01:51, 20 July 2010 (UTC)Reply
If it pleases you to burn Wikiversity to the ground, rather than evolve to a 21st Century learning community committed to ethical best practices, who am I to deny you the ecstasy of your banhammerama? —Moulton02:26, 20 July 2010 (UTC)Reply
Moulton, schools have the ability to come up with their own conduct policies. You failed to abide by it after multiple warnings from those in charge of the school. You were expelled. That was your own fault. That is the 21st century. You can abide by it or not, but you are currently acting like a lawless animal and not as a civilized human. Ottava Rima (talk) 03:51, 20 July 2010 (UTC)Reply
"tons of innocent people harmed" <-- As a scientist, I have spent decades studying cause and effect in a complex system, the human brain. In comparison to a brain, the situation here is very simple. A group of POV pushers at Wikipedia created an article that violated the BLP policy. Moulton called them on their unethical practice of using anonymous wiki accounts to publish false claims about a living person. Wikipedians, rather than repair the bogus BLP, kicked Moulton out and viciously harassed him off-wiki. Those Wikipedians sent a sock puppeting wiki hitman to Wikiversity to get him banned from this project. They gamed Jimbo into blocking Moulton against Wikiversity community consensus. Moulton was subjected to an assortment of show trials and witch hunts while the Wikiversity community was under external threat and harassment. In this chain of events the guilt rests on the parties who violated BLP policy and attacked Moulton rather than fix the bogus BLP. Moulton should be given an honest chance to defend himself against any lingering charges. I'm not aware that anyone has been harmed at Wikiversity by having someone use their real name. I think a scholarly community of collaborating learners should adopt conventional educational practices and allow Wikiversity community members to use each others names. If the community makes a policy restricting the use of names, I will respect that, but there should also be protections against anonymous editors who publish false claims about living people. It is time for Wikiversity to stand up to invading thugs and their wiki-cop banhammer approach. We can return Wikiversity to the congenial atmosphere that existed from 2006 - 2008. The more blocks and bans imposed on Wikiversity scholars the more ludicrous the Wikimedia Foundation looks in the eyes of the world. A non-profit educational foundation cannot long sustain a culture of abuse and injustice. Now is the time to take Wikiversity back and restore tranquility and sanity. --JWSchmidt02:31, 20 July 2010 (UTC)Reply
JWS, if he didn't out people he wouldn't have given them an excuse to ban. It is that simple. If he would have stayed within the rules then they would have been removed for their disruption. Ottava Rima (talk) 03:51, 20 July 2010 (UTC)Reply
Ottava, care to support your accusation with evidence? Care to let Moulton defend himself and cross-examine those who have made accusations against him? Or is this just going to be another WMF witch hunt? I'm a scientist. show me the evidence, let Moulton present his defense, prove your case. This is Wikiversity and we don't follow the rules of Wikipedia. What Wikiversity policy did Moulton violate? Justice is not a cop with a gun and excuse. Moulton is innocent until proven guilty. This is a scholarly learning community, not a wiki-cop MMORPG where thugs bash scholars on the head with their toy banhammers. --JWSchmidt04:42, 20 July 2010 (UTC)Reply
References? You remember the names in his "song parodies". You remember how he used my name multiple times. I had to go through his archives and remove the entries because I wasn't able to clean it all when it first happened. He tosses around real names left and right. Even if it never happened in the past, he can still agree to not doing it in the future. I don't care if there is a policy or not. Right now, he has to do that to get back in. It isn't questionable, debatable, or anything else. It is the one clear standard. Ottava Rima (talk) 13:20, 20 July 2010 (UTC)Reply
The need for something like the proposed Wikiversity Privacy Policy is under community review. Your comments at that review are welcome. You remember the names in his "song parodies" <--No, I do not. I doubt if there were any. Do you have evidence that there were? "he used my name multiple times" <-- Moulton often uses my name and I hardly notice his cordial way of referring to me. Until Wikiversity has a policy that forbids collaborating Wikiversity scholars from using each others names I will continue to defend his right to do so. "go through his archives and remove the entries" <-- Please provide links to the removals you are talking about. "It is the one clear standard" <-- If it is so clear then you should be able to link to the Wikiversity policy where this "clear standard" is expounded. --JWSchmidt14:22, 20 July 2010 (UTC)Reply
Sorry, that isn't how things work. There is no policy keeping me from blocking people who post names. So, until Wikiversity has a policy, I will continue to enforce the blocks. Therefore, if Moulton wants back in, he knows 100% what to do. This isn't negotiable - he needs to give up using people's real names and identities. Ottava Rima (talk) 17:10, 20 July 2010 (UTC)Reply
In William Morris’s 1890 utopia News from Nowhere, there is a very short chapter, ‘Concerning Politics’. The visitor, William Guest, asks his informant ‘How do you manage with politics?’. He receives the reply ‘… we are very well off as to politics, - because we have none.’ This lecture is about the relationship between sociology and utopia, and some might expect it to be equally brief, and for the same reason, that there is none.
H. G. Wells, however, whose A Modern Utopia was published a hundred years ago this year, thought otherwise. He argued that:
… the creation of utopias – and their exhaustive criticism – is the proper and distinctive method of sociology (Wells 1914: 204)
AND the Koide formula. as well as thermodynamics to my advantage as well as infinite monkey theorem to make a new kind of shakespear. They say these days he had many unknown writters, just as I am in my day and time. july 19, 2010
--M00se198903:09, 20 July 2010 (UTC)Reply
I agree with Cormac's appeal, and therefore i would like to make a few propositions to help Wikiversity:
There used to be an agreement that the conflicts between members would be discarded from the Colloquium. The colloquium should be in the first place a page for ideas about Wikiversity and not about fights within the community of Wikiversity. These fights can better be handled by those within the community who will act as referee or middleman to end conflicts.
Other solutions are less easy.
One could be: Organize certain themes within classic fields of science, like studying Darwin, or a period in history, or making a subject of physics more understandible for common people and talk about that in the colloquium.
There could be tasks for users, to organize Wikiversity in certain ways. Companies use that a lot. I know from my father's company that tasks were scheduled to certain employees, whithin a certain time frame. Problemis that many people won't like to be part of such a rigid organization, especially when it is volunteer work.
Wikiversity could try to make learning materials and learning subjects more entertaining and less technocratic. This could lure more people from the outside.
I got plenty of time, because i am still unemployed. Though, the chances for jobs are better, but it will probably be a lousy one, so i would like to do something for Wikiversity. I have read a lot of books the past years and was worried about my own future. And so, i am excited about the idea of how to live life in a full and exciting way. That's an old enlightenment and romantic ideal taken over from the ancient Greeks and Romans. We could spend our times doing a shitty job and watching shitty tv, or go to certain internet pages i won't mention. But, maybe there is more to life, and that is something Wikiversity could be about.Daanschr14:40, 23 July 2010 (UTC)Reply
I have a group of Australian students who are interested in talking to people from other countries. They are studying their own place in the global community.
well I'm from another country - but currently in Sydney ;-) - there are folk from further afield around here - but it's probably best to setup your own pages - perhaps with some questions, or explaining what you'd hope to achieve here - you can then invite people to take a look, and join in..... would you like some help with that? Privatemusings09:20, 22 July 2010 (UTC)Reply
Admin problem
Latest comment: 14 years ago24 comments7 people in discussion
I've been having a bit of a problem with Ottava Rima. I've been keeping a journal of the incidents. I'll let them speak for themselves:
Entry #1
Wednesday 21st July 2010
Whilst talking with Moulton on IRC today he told me that he had been banned by Ottava Rima. Moulton suggested that I [Rock drum] leave Ottava a message asking him some questions. The message was as follows:
“
With all due respect, do you have any evidence that Moulton is "attacking others"? Is there also anywhere that I can see him presenting his defense, and cross-examining the witnesses? Can you exhibit the record of Due Process, or exhume the cover up?
”
Ottava then removed this comment with the edit summary: removing obvious sock puppet. I am not a sock puppet of Moulton as many of you know and can testify to. I feel sad, angry, disappointed and just downright depressed.
Emotion scale:
Bullied: 7/10
Intimidated: 1/10
Upset: 9/10
Angry/annoyed: 8/10
Entry #2
Thursday 22nd July 2010
After Ottava removed the comment on his talk page yesterday I placed a new message which is as follows:
“
You removed my previous comment saying that I was a sockpuppet. I am not a sockpuppet and invite you to use Checkuser on us.
”
He [Ottava] then removed my comment with the edit summary: reverting inappropriae [inappropriate] addition by user who is revealing language and wording that verifies they are not new nor innocent. The only reason I can use language like this is because I am a moderately experienced user on Wikipedia (I’ve been there since October). I know about things like CheckUser etc. I’m not as upset as I was after the last incident; I’m just a bit angry.
User:Rock drum, I'm sorry you have had such an interaction with one of our Custodians. This kind of disruptive behavior by Custodians is under community review. With any luck things will improve in the future. Please don't join the ranks of those who have been driven away from Wikiversity by capricious acts of Wikimedia functionaries. --JWSchmidt16:07, 22 July 2010 (UTC)Reply
Rock drum is an obvious sock puppet who uses the same language. It is no coincidence that a user without any experience found his way here and posted in he same manner. The same capitalization and the rest is also a major denoting factor. But the best was his diving straight into an obscure and complex problem while speaking about it from a position of experience. Ottava Rima (talk) 16:13, 22 July 2010 (UTC)Reply
We all know that proxies are used in such situations. Sock puppetry catching is 90% behavior. The behavior that was there was 100% not that of a new user and 100% including capitalization and language common for it being a sock puppet. Furthermore, JWS, it has already been shown that you've made a sock puppet and that there are plenty of others. If you want, we can enforce a clean house on such as sock puppetry has a history of being known to be disruptive. Ottava Rima (talk) 16:26, 22 July 2010 (UTC)Reply
Ottava, Rock_Drum is not a sock puppet of mine. He came to Wikiversity for reasons unrelated to me. We had never met or communicated. JWS invited him to chat in his preferred IRC channel, #wikiversity-en-projects, which is where I met him. He's a bright young learner, and I am playing my usual role as a science educator of helping bright young people learn. You will discover that Rock Drum has some talents which I lack. When he manifests those talents (of which I am candidly incapable), you will realize that he is a real person who had never heard of me until we met yestrday in #wikiversity-en-projects. Moulton16:36, 22 July 2010 (UTC)Reply
Did you not complain when Beetlebaum was exposed as belonging to you? Sigh. Talking to you makes me think either you lack short term memory or you are just messing with us. Ottava Rima (talk) 18:55, 22 July 2010 (UTC)Reply
What you seem to repeatedly fail to acknowledge regarding the checkuser request is that I wasn't specifically entrusted with any confidential checkuser data. The information that resulted from the checkuser request was available to everyone. All I did was to mention the findings on Wikiversity. I'm not convinced that really fits with your suggestion that I "should not be trusted to responsibly make use of information obtained by checkuser". Adambro20:59, 22 July 2010 (UTC)Reply
You seem to have now gone onto criticising my apparent revealing of your IP address rather than use of checkuser data. That is a separate issue. Your IP address did not come from the checkuser request, the only findings that I have been provided in response to my checkuser request are exactly what anyone can see on Meta. I explained in my comment how I determined that was an IP address used by you. That was by making an assessment of the contributions it had made and your response to those. Anyone could do that and it was facilitated by the contributions you had made. If you really were so concerned about your IP address being public then you could and should take more care about ensuring you are logged in and, secondly, not responding in such a way to edits you make by that IP so as to confirm it was you, e.g. changing the IPs signature to your own. I'm not convinced that you are actually as concerned about hiding your IP as you would seem to be judging from your reaction to what you suggest is my revealing of it in light of comments you have made on IRC. Since I am sure you keep logs of IRC, you'll be able to find what you've said but my recollection is that you suggested that you weren't actually very bothered about hiding your IP address. In that context this seems criticism for the sake of it. However, even if you were genuinely concerned about keeping your IP address private, as I've explained, you could have taken a lot more care yourself to ensure that. Adambro21:44, 22 July 2010 (UTC)Reply
Perhaps when you withdraw your baseless accusation that I've misused checkuser data I might be more enthusiastic about trying to respond to your questions. Adambro22:23, 22 July 2010 (UTC)Reply
I probably shouldn't butt in, but... "went out of your way to invade the privacy of a harmless Wikiversity user account" <-- seems to violate (H1). Why not (H1', another good faith possibility) "he made a mistake trying to be to detailed in his post. Didn't realize it would be upsetting, he has been informed and it can now be dropped." Maybe? Maybe not? That is what good faith would mean to me. Thenub31423:14, 22 July 2010 (UTC)Reply
made a mistake....trying to be to detailed.....Didn't realize.....has been informed...now be dropped <-- Thenub314, let me tell you what I think Adambro should have done: 1) nothing. However, assuming good faith for subconscious recognition of the fact that the Beetlebaum account was mine, having run the check, Adambro should have seen the error of his ways and 2) never mention his misguided checkuser request to anyone. However, assuming good faith for Adambro believing, without evidence, that Moulton had been banned (this was Adambro's excuse for requesting the checkuser action), I can accept that Adambro might have 3) come to my user talk page and asked me to mark the User:Beetlebaum account as mine. I would have done so and that would have been the end of the matter. However, rather than do #1 or #2 or #3, Adambro instead 4) created a "Request custodian action" item for the harmless Beetlebaum account. Why did Adambro do that? He wrote, "Since I am aware of some concerns about me taking action relating to JWSchmidt, I would ask that other custodians review this situation and take any action as appropriate." <-- This suggests that Adambro wanted to take Custodian action, but held back, expecting another Custodian to act. Act in what way? I draw a blank, so I have been asking him to explain his action. He refuses to explain. Such a lack of transparency derails my ability to assume good faith. "made a mistake" <-- check. "trying to be to detailed" <-- Why? What purpose was served by Adambro associating a particular IP address with a particular user account? "has been informed" <-- I have no evidence that Adambro understands what he did wrong. "now be dropped" <-- I believe Adambro never should have been made a Custodian and that he has done vast damage to the Wikiversity community since becoming a Custodian, as is being documented at the community review. His record as Custodian1, 2, 3 and #wikiversity-en channel operator and his misguided behavior after obtaining the checkuser results, as discussed here, indicates that he cannot be trusted. Custodians must be trusted members of the Wikiversity community. I think Adambro should explain his actions, but he often fails to answer my questions. It is up to the Wikiversity community to decide how to respond to Adambro's inexplicable and misguided actions. --JWSchmidt01:29, 23 July 2010 (UTC)Reply
You say that your ability to assume good faith has been derailed. This exactly makes my point above that you had failed to actually assume it. I will participate in the community review as time allows. Thenub31419:26, 23 July 2010 (UTC)Reply
Too much postmodernism and christianity on Wikiversity
Latest comment: 14 years ago1 comment1 person in discussion
The problems on Wikiversity regarding the fights among users has to do with an ongoing attack by postmodernists and christians on Wikiversity as an institution. My proposal is to strengthen scientific knowledge within Wikiversity. Another proposal is to ban for eternity those users who continuously attack other users and use a postmodern kind of language that makes civil discussions impossible. Also those who support these users should be banned. The support for science should be of prime consideration instead of simply focusing on whether someone has a specific background as a professor at a university. Personally i am also in favour of art and culture, but i think it would be wise to advance science first and foremost.Daanschr11:08, 24 July 2010 (UTC)Reply
Diego wasn't the only one responsible - there was a discussion on WikiBooks also. I'm looking for a reason why it would be imported or if there is none at all for it to be (and thus it will be removed). Ottava Rima (talk) 19:12, 24 July 2010 (UTC)Reply
My understand is that Pykrete is a valid educational topic, but the use of Pykrete to make a Bong is original and thus belongs at Wikiversity because Wikibooks does not accept books on original ideas. Does that help? -- darklama 19:51, 24 July 2010 (UTC)Reply
If you have any questions about what was going on at the wikibooks side of things I would be glad to put in my two cents, being fairly involved in this particular RfD. Generally speaking the scope of WV is very unclear to the wikibooks folks, which I suppose is understandable. So anytime a page is nominated for deletion that contains OR/POV someone comments this is allowed at wikiversity so we should put it there. This has been coming up a lot lately because we have had some new editors come in and start to be fairly active about looking at old abandoned books.
To some editors feel we are dumping wikibooks trash on wikiversity. To others this is seen a way to share with wikiversity valuable educational material that doesn't happen to fall in wikibooks scope. Overall both sides seem to wish there was a more structured way we could get the wikiversity community's input on transwiki's, but it is unclear the best way to go about doing that.
Diego his part has been helpful in providing some guidance, as has Darklama who is fairly active on both projects. I personally never felt it fell into the scope here, but acquiesced to a transwiki not being familiar enough with the other resources to know for sure. Thenub31419:55, 24 July 2010 (UTC)Reply
In response to Ottava, I would assume simply that it was imported because Diego felt it falls within our project scope. Diego was solely responsible for importing it, it was for him to make a judgement as to whether that was appropriate. Diego has shown by declining to import b:How To Do Nothing that he isn't blindly dealing with import requests so I don't see who else can be considered responsible in this case. If you disagree with Diego then you should discuss this with him. I note you've not raised this on his talk page before raising it here or notified him of this discussion. That would be wise since he is most able to explain why he chose to import it. If after discussing this with Diego you are unable to agree that it falls within the project scope then I'd suggest taking it to Wikiversity:Deletion requests. Adambro19:55, 24 July 2010 (UTC)Reply
Well, it is kinda educational in my opinion, and I imported it because it was going to be deleted, and it can be surely useful for someone here. After all, Wikiversity is for learning resources, and this certainly teaches how to build the bong, as the title suggests. Diego Grez20:05, 24 July 2010 (UTC)Reply
Declaration of Swedish Month
Latest comment: 14 years ago2 comments2 people in discussion
Wikiversity is getting a bit tired and splintered. What you folks need is a gimmick to bring the community together, and have cooperation on something positive for a change.
Therefore, with the power vested in me by the consensus of the most august #wikiversity IRC channel, I hereby declare Swedish Month, a 30-day collaboration on all learning topics connected to this charming Scandinavian land. Bring on the spicy meatballs!--Pharos19:24, 26 July 2010 (UTC)Reply
Latest comment: 14 years ago4 comments2 people in discussion
I am currently taking a class on Teaching English as a Foreign Language. I recently finished a paper and published it in my user profile. My question is, are student paper's appropriate for Wikiversity?
I believe it is, because it has a chance to be helpful for someone else interested in the topic, is open to improvement from the community which might lead interesting places and I feel Wikiversity might be a good place for students and teachers to host their electronic portfolios.
This potentially has a lot of value. I was at a small wiki without an Arbcom before this and one of the main reasons I left is that I felt trying to engage in an arbcom would split the community. Sometimes having a uninvolved people to mediate would have gone a long way to resolve that dispute. Thenub31416:31, 27 July 2010 (UTC)Reply
While I may not agree with the concept of closing wikiversity, it certainly should be open for discussion. Some of those outside participants who took part in the RfC, and suggestion shutting wv down are people who have over the years earned my respect in other settings. I would easily trust them to be an fair and unbiased judge if we asked it of them. Thenub31417:05, 27 July 2010 (UTC)Reply
(Particularly Kayau and Dmcq) Besides the proposal is clearly wiki's which don't have an Arb. Comittee. So, assuming such a thing ever pass, and there is community consensus that it doesn't belong here, all that needs to be done is set up some conflict resolution process. With such a thing you could easily tel the Dispute resolution committee what to go do with itself. But for other wiki's I am sure it could be a good thing. Thenub31421:14, 27 July 2010 (UTC)Reply
Large range blocks
Latest comment: 14 years ago26 comments7 people in discussion
It is a large range of IPs and it is a shame. It is a very difficult situation to know what to do. But I think we will probably unblock some of those IPs in the near or distant future. Even if we don't he could always start using open proxies, and he is well aware of this. So before we proceed further we should develop a clear guideline for custodians as to how to handle his edits. Without this guideline there will just be more cries of foul play and further community reviews. Thenub31422:16, 27 July 2010 (UTC)Reply
The block that was imposed on Moulton is under community review. As far as I can tell, Adambro is still enforcing the absurd lock that was put on Moulton's account. Moulton's user account was subjected to a global account lock, the "reason" given as "enough is enough". This is a bogus lock, "enough is enough" is not a valid reason for a lock. Some sysops have declared that they can unilaterally declare blocks and bans, regardless of what Wikiversity policy or community consensus says. Moulton should be unblocked immediately. Moulton's good faith edits should not have been treated like vandalism and all the blocks of IP ranges should be cleared. It is an embarrassment to Wikiversity and the Wikimedia Foundation that a scholarly expert in online learning communities is being excluded from Wikiversity by the misguided actions of two capricious sysops. --JWSchmidt23:03, 27 July 2010 (UTC)Reply
There are policy reasons for continuing to enforce the block of Moulton, but that does not mean that we could not negotiate with him for some resolution of the situation that is acceptable to both him and the community; my sense was that this might be possible, but not while we have custodians who will act to prevent reconciliation, to make "block enforcement" a priority over benefit to the project. There is a much clearer case, the situation of Thekohser, who was just reblocked by Adambro after I unblocked him upon two findings: that no clear reason for the original block had been established, and that he had demonstrated exemplary cooperation; truly disruptive users don't cooperate with blocks as he did. Whether or not he would continue to be "non-disruptive" is beside the point, because we do not know, in fact, that, not just for Thekohser, but for any user.
However, as to Moulton, when the Moulton account was unblocked by Darklama, I went ahead and unblocked the acknowledged sock, Caprice. In my view, from an unblock situation, reblock should not take place unless new disruptive behavior appears. I had seen, as it seemed that some edits from Moulton might be allowed to stand, an improvement of Moulton behavior. Moulton is a critic, no doubt about it, but not all criticism is disruptive and some is even necessary. I did not see any waiting for new disruptive behavior, just inertia. I did look back at the Community Review that has been cited as justification for the Moulton block, and that Review was, in fact, not conclusive, there was no clear consensus. Continuing to block Moulton, nevertheless, has much stronger basis than the same thing for Thekohser. And until we can find a way to find true consensus on Thekohser, we are not at all likely to find it on Moulton.
A mindless insistence that blocks must be respected, that enforcement of them is a crucial and fundamental policy, flies in the fact of a basic organizational principle: don't create unenforceable rules. We cannot stop Moulton from editing, per se, without causing massive collateral damage, and even if we were willing to tolerate that damage, he'd still find ways around it, and, consider this: someone like JWS could simply put up the same arguments, as he has, in fact, been doing. So what is the block preventing? Rather, it seems to me, it's causing more disruption than it is preventing. Given that, it should have strong consensus, and it clearly does not. Hence we have a few administrators, nearly all that are left as active, running and enforcing personal opinions, with a community that is mostly absent, for whatever reason. I fully understand why Jimbo felt it necessary to intervene! -- even though I don't necessarily agree with the actions he took. --Abd00:21, 28 July 2010 (UTC)Reply
JWS, I suggested a topic ban on this for you because, frankly, you haven't a clue what you are doing. You were quite deeply offended by what happened in 2008 and after, and it's quite understandable, but your views are extreme and fail to understand the other side, consistently. Hence your continued participation in this sheds more heat than light. With every comment you ask a series of questions, questions where, in fact, the answers have long been obvious. It eats time to read and respond, but, from experience, no value results, there will simply be more questions asked, more demands, etc. Normally, then, I'm insisting that someone else echo questions from you, to show that they should actually receive answers. Call it a requirement for a motion to be seconded before being debated. I did, in fact, with the proposed topic ban, set up a procedure whereby you could still participate in any discussion, but with this requirement of a second, very simple, very easy, non-disruptive. And, in fact, so could Moulton or any other blocked or banned editor. But who is paying attention?
I am, however, going to answer one question, your first. Please name one reason for blocking Moulton. There are many, but I'm going to start with the obvious one. He's been blocked and has been evading the block by IP socking. That is a blockable offense in itself, and must be. You may certainly argue that he should not have been blocked, but, remember, John, I've been blocked and I know general wiki policy and the theory underlying it. When blocked, I did not evade the block, no matter how bad it was. Period. That is the norm and is what is expected. Rather, I would (and have) requested unblock and/or pursued recourse through escalating discussion or whatever legitimate means were available. While a limited usage of socking could be considered justified where there is no reasonable alternative, and a contribution is critical, that does not ever apply to revert warring as an IP editor, as Moulton recently did. This is consistent with standard practice in all academic institutions, where our "custodian" is, with respect to blocks, like the campus police. --Abd01:52, 28 July 2010 (UTC)Reply
"the answers have long been obvious" <-- When you make accusations against a Wikiversity community member and fail to provide examples, evidence and reasoning to support your claims of what you feel is "obvious" then it is obvious that you are disrupting Wikiversity by making unjustified accusations. "there will simply be more questions asked, more demands" <-- You can end the questioning by providing examples, evidence and reasoning to support your claims and let Moulton defend himself against your accusations. "I'm insisting that someone else echo questions from you" <-- I have no idea what you are talking about. Rather than avoiding your Custodial obligations, why can't you just provide examples, evidence and reasoning to support your claims and let Moulton defend himself against your accusations? "That is a blockable offense" <-- Abd, please cite Wikiversity policy to support your claim. Moulton was subjected to an absurdly bad block. He has continued to make useful and good faith contributions to Wikiversity. Abd, why to you want to turn his constructive edits into crimes? "That is the norm and is what is expected" <-- Abd, don't try to bring destructive practices from other websites into this collaborative learning community. At Wikiversity, all good faith edits are welcome. Why do you insist on further alienating Wikiversity community members who are sickened by the abuse that Moulton has been subjected to? This is consistent with standard practice in all academic institutions, where our "custodian" is, with respect to blocks, like the campus police. <-- Abd, Custodians clean up obvious vandalism. In any real world educational institution, if a janitor bashed a scholar over the head with a banhammer, the janitor would we thrown in jail. If the arrested janitor started claiming to be a campus policeman, he'd probably end up being treated for mental illness. --JWSchmidt02:50, 28 July 2010 (UTC)Reply
The above make my point. Simple question: a request for one reason. One reason given. In response, many more questions asked, no acknowledgment of given answer. Janitors are not given "banhammers." Those would be police tools. Activist stands up in faculty meeting and speaks out of order. Sergeant-at-arms or police officer conducts activist from meeting. ("Bans" him, though strictly speaking it would be the meeting chair who would routinely order the removal.) If activist struggles with lawful orders of police officer (given the discretion accorded the officer), activist may be charged with additional offense. Resisting arrest is a crime regardless of the disposition of some original charges. If you think WV "custodians" are only janitors, you should ask for the block tools to be removed from the tool set. Now, who has been "bashed over the head"? Near as I can tell, Moulton's head is just fine, perhaps a few loose screws, nothing that couldn't be fixed. Is Moulton a "scholar"? I'd call him something else, an "educational activist," he's pretty explicit about what he does, I've had a great deal of direct correspondence with him, and he is deliberately disruptive, it's part of what he does, he knows it and is proud of it, and he sometimes does it well. Your position, JWS, is bizarre and completely out of touch with reality. I think we should, indeed, have a place for Moulton, but not without reasonable restrictions. Your own disruption makes it more difficult to negotiate those, inflames response from custodians, and generally stirs up the shit. Hence I requested that a custodian review your behavior and make an independent assessment. That didn't happen except for Adambro, who shouldn't have touched his block button. So, instead we got endless discussion that seems to go nowhere, which is why I'm concluding that WV may be hopeless, it's paralyzed. And you are helping to keep it that way. --Abd04:18, 28 July 2010 (UTC)Reply
Moulton is disruptive, prone to harassment, doesn't have a problem using Wikiversity as an advocacy platform, and hasn't provided any decent educational content that universities or highschools could use to cover core areas regardless of protests to the contrary. Ottava Rima (talk) 01:28, 28 July 2010 (UTC)Reply
Audio made using Teamspeak. This is an example of using teamspeak for language learning (active listening). User:Moulton, User:Sundance Raphael and User:JWSchmidt can be heard."Moulton is disruptive" <-- Moulton was participating constructively at Wikiversity in 2008. "prone to harassment" <-- In 2008, Moulton was harassed and targeted for elimination by a few Wikipedians who disrupted Wikiversity. Here in 2010, Moulton is being harassed by a few misguided sysops who don't even allow him to participate in the community review where he should be allowed to defend himself against your accusations. "advocacy" <-- Moulton is an advocate for accuracy, excellence, and ethics in online media. He also advocates for the idea that Wikiversity should be an authentic learning community, not a parade ground for sysops using their toy banhammers to club scholars and disrupt the Wikiversity Mission. "decent educational content" <-- Moulton was just getting started at Wikiversity when he was viciously attacked by a gang of thugs. Ottava Rima, please remove your block and let Moulton return to working with his collaborators. If you can't do that then at least let him defend himself against your accusations. --JWSchmidt02:23, 28 July 2010 (UTC)Reply
Playing multiple "characters" to put on a "theatre show" that involves the harassment of users and disruption of Wikiversity is vandalism. It could even be considered a primary example of vandalism that should be put up on a policy page on how to spot vandalism. You should know that and your dissimulation above suggests a problem. Ottava Rima (talk) 03:03, 28 July 2010 (UTC)Reply
Sorry, that isn't how things work. There is no policy keeping me from blocking people who post names. So, until Wikiversity has a policy, I will continue to enforce the blocks. Therefore, if Moulton wants back in, he knows 100% what to do. This isn't negotiable - he needs to give up using people's real names and identities. Ottava Rima (talk) 17:10, 20 July 2010 (UTC)
Ottava made it clear that he'd have Moulton blocked regardless of any policies, but simply because Moulton uses people's real names. This regardlessness caused me to start #Note from KYPark and its first part #To User:Moulton aiming to reassure it, where Ottava tacitly reassured it. Now Ottava newly mentions Moulton's vandalism, suggesting the violation of the relevant policy! hence sounding so inconsistent that I am painfully confused, I fear. Am I the only one so confused in this universe?
I've been too confused and perplexed to be willing to be further intertwined. JWSchmidt, please understand I'm a month old here. In that capacity, however, I try to figure out what's wrong here besides your apparently thorough accusation, though I'm such an empiricist that no seasoning no reasoning! For instance, I have no idea yet how to respond to "Yes! This is a haven for original research." -- KYPark[T]11:09, 28 July 2010 (UTC)Reply
There is nothing "good faith" about any of your edits since July 2008. You lost any ability for people to assume such a long time ago with your behavior and actions. Ottava Rima (talk) 14:07, 28 July 2010 (UTC)Reply
Ottava, don't you see I'm rather indirectly appealing to you that I'm painfully confused because of your inconsistent reasoning? Do you have no idea about that at all? -- KYPark[T]14:44, 28 July 2010 (UTC)Reply
In the kind of slip that happens when we get way too involved in a situation, Ottava, above, apparently responded to JWS, but after KYPark's comment, making it look like he was accusing KYPark of not making good faith edits. However, the comment puzzles me. JWS is current engaged in massive disruption, starting discussions all over the place and arguing tendentiously and endlessly, as far as I can see, while hearing practically nothing of what is said to him, I've seen no movement or apology for even the smallest, most inconsequential errors, not to mention worse errors that are also clear. This could indeed be a sign of bad faith editing, i.e., that the editor is deliberately causing offense and not arguing sincerely. If Ottava believes that JWS is not editing in good faith, why did he unblock JWS? He could reverse that decision, you know, it is always acceptable for an admin who last acted on an object (page, user account, blacklisting, etc.) to reverse it without further ado, and without consideration of recusal policy. Once another admin has touched the object, recusal rules again apply. This is why, indeed, if we don't like an custodial action, our first recourse should always be to request the custodian reverse it, not claim that the custodian was biased,, etc. Even if biased or wrong, surely, then, the admin could reverse the action and avoid the necessity for further consideration by another custodian, expanded discussion, etc., etc. So why does Ottava leave JWS unblocked while at the same time claiming that JWS is not editing in good faith, which would surely, under the conditions, merit withdrawing the unblock by reblocking.
Quite like Moulton, JWS's farrago of complaints, objections, and questions continually tempts custodians and others to defend the indefensible or attack what should not be attacked, it invites them to make mistakes in response, which then justifies further complaints. That is the essence of "trolling," in fact, if deliberate, it is an attempt to provoke others to intemperate response. It is having that effect whether or not JWS intends it. Which is why I suggested a topic ban, not a block, and even provided within the suggestion for ways in which JWS could continue legitimate criticism and questioning. And ... the proposal went over like a lead balloon, except for, say KYPark and a few others, who seem to realize what is being offered. Given the level of mess continually expanding, I'm about to decide that this is, indeed, an emergency, which would require me to disregard my own prior interpretation of recusal policy. I'll be careful, and I'll do nothing that could not easily be undone, and I know how to do it properly. Essentially, I would declare a topic ban myself, and an intention to enforce it, unless consensus or other clear impediment arises first. --Abd20:52, 28 July 2010 (UTC)Reply
I surely knew Ottava was responding to JWS, though he may have misaligned his comment. But Ottava would better have responded to me as well, as I was expecting. Thus I just took that chance to require him to answer me. So do I again. Whether disruptive or not, I also know JWS is exceptionally thorough, and you appear next to him. :) Anyway it is an agonizing shame that the whole discussion looks trapped by a vicious circle, regardless of good faith or disruption. At the moment, I'd suggest the immediate unconditional unblocking of "sane vandals" be the simplest and beauty-fullest escape from that vicious trap. Full stop. Again I greatly appreciate your effort to straight things. -- KYPark[T]03:25, 29 July 2010 (UTC)Reply
JWS tosses piles of mud, then asks complex questions, often distracting from the mud tossed. I'm going to respond here to one issue, the revision-deleted comment made by Moulton as Caprice.[1] Ottava had made a proposal to unblock Moulton if Moulton agreed to not "mention anyone's real life name."[2] The Caprice edit took a section header created by Ottava, "My proposal," and changed the header to be Ottava's real and full name, "Proposal of [full real name]." Changing a section header like that could be offensive even if not for outing. Moulton tossed in, as well, severe incivility quite aside from the outing. Even beyond the direct defiance shown, basically spitting in Ottava's face, and given that Moulton already knew that outing was unacceptable -- it was a big issue before in the sequence that led to his original block, if I'm correct -- this was deliberate trolling, he knew full well what would happen, and which did happen: Adambro deleted the revision and blocked Caprice access to the talk page. This sequence shows clearly that Moulton was intending to offend. Adambro being the blocking admin might raise some eyebrows, but the block was then confirmed by Diego Grez, who had allowed the Caprice talk page access in the first place (the account was apparently created by an agreement with Moulton). Given that some of us have had extensive discussion with Moulton off-wiki, as well as familiarity with his comments here, to charge us with a failure to assume good faith when we simply state what we clearly know is, itself, a civility offense. Moulton is very open about what he is doing, and I consider it possible that there is a place for it at Wikiversity, but not unrestrained, as with that edit. If not for that edit, and if Moulton had decided to agree to not "out" editors, that simple, he'd have been unblocked with no fuss, and then we could have started looking at an unlock request. But that would have ruined the opportunity to endlessly complain, eh? Moulton has made it very clear that he prefers to be blocked, and that is certainly understandable to me. I'm not complaining about Moulton, I'm warning you about your behavior, JWS, here and in other places, currently on Wikiversity. --Abd21:25, 28 July 2010 (UTC)Reply
Latest comment: 14 years ago9 comments5 people in discussion
There was a question. Some researches are carried out in Russian Vikiversitete in biology which already have results. In Russian Vikipedii references to these researches (only references as on the brotherly project) have been given. They have been removed, under a pretext original researches. Whether I wish to learn has similar in English Vikiversitete/Vikipedii and as affairs here are.
(Появился вопрос. В русском Викиверситете проводятся некоторые исследования по биологии, которые уже имеют результаты. В русской Википедии были даны ссылки на эти исследования (только ссылки как на братский проект). Они были удалены, под предлогом оригинальные маргинальные исследования. Хочу узнать имеет ли подобное в английском Викиверситете/Википедии, и как тут обстоят дела.) SergeyJ17:58, 29 July 2010 (UTC)Reply
Generally, original research is allowed on en.Wikiversity.org, unlike en.Wikipedia.org. Each wiki is independent, however, each project could have its own policy. There can also sometimes be a problem with web sites that might have been globally blacklisted. Each wiki has its own whitelist to bypass a global blacklist if that's needed. (In a university class, students or speakers may present original research, so might a professor or other teacher. This is analogous.) Having said this, one should be careful how original research is presented, it should not be implied that this is generally accepted knowledge if it is not. --Abd21:37, 29 July 2010 (UTC)Reply
I think the question relates to whether or not original research on a wikiversity can be used as a source in a wikipedia - in short, probably not. If / when a wikiversity is able to contribute a paper to a peer reviewed journal I think we'd be in better shape to be cited. I'm unaware of any english wikiversity research being used as a reference in the english wikipedia, but others may know more? best, Privatemusings22:03, 29 July 2010 (UTC)Reply
You might be right, PM. Generally, no wiki can be used as a reliable source. It's possible that with some review process where page versions are approved by an expert review panel, with reliable process and validation, that could change. We have nothing like that. --Abd23:30, 29 July 2010 (UTC)Reply
Someone once told me Scholarpedia was a wiki that could be reliable source, given that it has a peer-reviewed structure and changes have to be approved by an expert in the field. But this is not really pertinent to the conversation. Thenub31423:35, 29 July 2010 (UTC)Reply
Thanks, but you have not precisely understood. Speech more about relates to whether or not original research on a wikiversity can be used as a source in a wikipedia, but the reference, not as is given used as a source. Reference used as additional information, similar w:Template:Wikiversity, but only for researches. SergeyJ03:34, 30 July 2010 (UTC)Reply
I would support moving only if the conversations seem to be concluded at that time. If people have made comments as recently as the last week, it would be nice if the conversations stayed here, since I would not have the new locations on my watchlist. Thenub31408:33, 30 July 2010 (UTC)Reply
The contents of this page are automatically archived when discussion threads become stale. Archiving active Colloquium threads is disruptive since it removes active discussions from participant's watch lists. KYPark, please stop manually archiving discussion threads from this page. --JWSchmidt09:28, 30 July 2010 (UTC)Reply
Perspective: staying focused on the project, not on conflict.
Latest comment: 14 years ago12 comments5 people in discussion
Abd and others have said recently they feel that heavy debates among admins are making it hard to work on Wikiversity. I would make a different set of observations.
First, to the perceived problem: there is unbalance among people who like to be vocal on Wikiversity: namespace pages -- too large a percentage enjoy the thrill of argument. Perhaps this is not surprising for Wikiversity of all projects, which has tried to recruit people with academic interests and background... academia is known for being like that, and for having streaks of viciousness within its monuments to thought. We have excellent contributors like Jtneill who spend most of their time editing the main namespace, and we also have many editors who spend almost all of their time editing, and worrying about, controversial debates.
Second, to a potential solution: rather than trying to resolve the controversies, recognize that most of them do not matter to the future of the project. Attracting more great contributors with interesting projects they want to start, such as
Charles Jeffrey Danoff and MrABlair23, is important. Giving them feedback, and thinking about the many different things Wikiversity can become, is extremely important. (MrABlair's course page overview for his Human Legacy Course is quite lovely and detailed -- yet after almost a month I was the first person to leave him a talk page message other than an automated welcome, offering some ideas & questions about his course. That is a pity. 10 minutes from each of the combatants who are using Wikiversity as a battleground would suffice to leave personal feedback for everyone who has created a new Wikiversity page in the past month. And that makes the difference between a collection of strangers and a community working together to solve large and amazing problems in education.
Attracting more custodians who are good at facilitation, and finding ways and guidelines to dissuade people who are spending all of their time in conflict -- or simply to get them to make a mainspace edit for every other edit! -- would be good. Regaining a focus on how to meaningfully provide materials, courses and research into all areas of knowledge would be truly great. –SJ+08:46, 30 July 2010 (UTC)Reply
As an aside, speaking of making mainspace v. flamewar edits -- I believe JWS said he offered Jtneill to limit his edits to the main namespace for some period of time, as part of resolving issues raised. Has that been discussed further? Now that JWS has laid out a careful list of concerns and complaints, that might be a good idea to let things calm down. –SJ+08:46, 30 July 2010 (UTC)Reply
I agree with you SJ. My own approach here on the Colloquium, was not the good one. To summarize mine, i couldn't be able to find people for my reading groups, so i quit editing for long whiles, hoping someone would come some day, with whom i could do something worthwhile. And now i am unemployed at home trying to keep myself busy and don't know where to go actually. Because i find the whole internet one giant peace of crap. Well, i do some chatroulette actually, which is gross.
I don't understand as well what's all the fuss with the personal conflicts here on Wikiversity. I don't have the stomach to get involved, because it is just a bad way of spending my time, like on all those political forums where people are constantly throwing mud to each other. Though, i had some great discussions once in a while. Why is Wikiversity so small, and do more than 6 million people World of Warcraft? And why are editors on Wikipedia often such loners and do you have so many edit wars there when people do have some contact with each other? I tried to run some WikiProjects, but they didn't work out.
I could send ABlair a message, because i got an MA in history. Problem is that we will be with two, and probably won't get any others involved. It is hard to get to some working relationship with only two. The best would be to come to a group of people, who use their creativity to create a meaningful way of spending their time on Wikiversity and are also capable of getting more people involved. That was what i was thinking a lot about a few years ago.Daanschr09:14, 30 July 2010 (UTC)Reply
From 2006 to 2008 Wikiversity was a healthy collaborative learning community, then the community was disrupted. The way to return the Wikiversity community to good health would be to count the constructive main namespace edits of all Custodians. If the majority of a Custodian's Wikiversity edits are not directly adding learning resources to main namespace pages then the Custodian's tools should be taken away. --JWSchmidt09:40, 30 July 2010 (UTC)Reply
I think it is a bad idea. It does nothing to stimulate creativity. If common users continuously harass Wikiversity and aren't blocked, than the custodians have to force themselves to edit positively in order to be able to handle the harassment. Better is to stimulate real communities of people who collaborate with each other and custodians should do their job by reducing vandalism and trolling. A good custodian can devote all his or her time to it, why not? Take an example of StuRat, how he handles the Help Desk, that is a service to the community. Just like a good custodian can also be serving Wikiversity as a whole.
Maybe it would be good to give my opinion for a change about the present troubles, though i don't want to discuss about it. The problem with User:Moulton is that he insults people and deliberately makes them angry. He also uses abnormal ways of communicating, which he calls drama, similar to User:KYPark above. And this abnormal way of communicating further infuriates those who have issues with him. That is why i am in favour of blocking him. I don't understand why JWSchmidt defends Moulton, because it is clear that Moulton is here to fight others and doesn't want to resolve disputes, but create them. I also don't uinderstand why custodians are discussing this for years. I have worked at a kindergarten and a school of 16 to 20 years old. My main job was to maintain order. Well, if someone didn't do as i say, than this person was punished pretty quickly, otherwise a school can't function properly. I don't spend all my time arguing about it. Wikiversity is lacking in authority, that way those who wants to disrupt the community can continue doing so. In forums people are quickly discarded. And if two fight, two are guilty. If two persons on a kindergarten were fighting with each other, they would often blame each other and both get punishment.Daanschr10:31, 30 July 2010 (UTC)Reply
I think i wasn't off guard with my earlier approach. The project JWSchmidt refers to has been deleted because it was intended to disrupt other Wikimedia projects, according to the person who warned Jimbo Wales about it. It probably is part of a large American movement called neoconservatism. Neoconservatives gained power in the 1980s (according to Wikipedia) by attacking others ferociously, the first group being attacked were the traditional Republicans, calling themselves paleoconservatives. Nowadays they use the Republican Party to attack the Democrats and to disrupt several institutions. An interesting prespective on it came from herman Wijffels, a Christian Democrat politician from the Netherlands, who brokered the Christian/Labour Party cabinet in 2007 in Holland. Before doing so he worked for the ethical department of the Worldbank, when suddenly Paul Wolfowitz started a typical neoconservative campaign afainst the unethical behaviour of certain persons within the Worldbank, similar to what is happening here on Wikiversity in my view. During a meeting a Russian told Wijffels that: 'it is war and you got to win it.' And Wijffels did. Wolfowitz was defeated. Wijffels has an interesting perspective on the world problems. He favours sustainability and says that our present lack of policy will lead to a famine killing billions of people worldwide. But, he is also a christian, a moderate one perhaps, just like Barack Obama. Many christian democrats regard him as too left-wing. That is why he was asked to broker the cabinet with the Labour Party. So to come back to my earlier remarks. We should ensure that Wikiversity is about learning communities and not about destroying Wikipedia.
So, my proposition is to increase the power of custodians and to throw all the neocons out. Just a simple block for eternity and ensuring they can't get back. Otherwise i would be in favour of closing down the english language Wikiversity and perhaps also beta, if these Wikiversity projects have nothing positive to add to the Wikimedia Foundation.Daanschr11:20, 30 July 2010 (UTC)Reply
I got a hard time trying to find out what's going on. I haven't followed the whole discussion in the past years, because i don't like it. I can remember reading about an Italian guy who threatened Wikipedia with a law-suit of 50 billion dollars, if his biography page was abused again. And here Wikiversity there was a page to discuss his case, and than Jimbo intervened. But, i can't find it anymore. I guess i should have better refrained myself from responding in the past weeks, since i don't know what is going on.Daanschr13:25, 30 July 2010 (UTC)Reply
Sergey, original research is something i also find very interesting. At the heart of Wikiversity is the academic freedom to conduct original research, while Wikipedia is about creating an encyclopedia of all human knowledge. Using relevant sources is a way to ensure a minimum of quality of knowledge on Wikipedia. The reason why i came on Wikiversity was because i know from the social sciences that there is a lot of conflict between those who write sources, so this means that editors on Wikipedia have to discuss sources and thereby create their own original research. But, this has nothing to do with the topic of SJ.Daanschr13:09, 30 July 2010 (UTC)Reply
Bessatalk 15:54, 27 July 2010 (UTC)
