Template talk:IPA-all

See also: Template talk:IPA and Template talk:Usage of IPA templates

Labels in Template:IPA-de

@Nardog: "Swiss German" isn't the correct label, it should read "Swiss Standard German". The same seems to apply to the Austrian variety. Kbb2 (ex. Mr KEBAB) (talk) 14:11, 8 November 2019 (UTC)

Doesn't the same apply to German German as well? @J. 'mach' wust, LiliCharlie, and Aeusoes1: What do you think the labels should be? Nardog (talk) 14:14, 8 November 2019 (UTC)

@Nardog: I wouldn't say so, given the fact that Germany has the most diverse dialects out of the three countries. In Switzerland they only speak Alemannic dialects (besides the spoken standard language), whereas Bavarian is the predominant dialect in Austria. In this context German German can, IMO, be only understood as German Standard German. Kbb2 (ex. Mr KEBAB) (talk) 16:07, 8 November 2019 (UTC)

The ISO 639 codes de, deu, and ger refer to the same language (see ISO 639#Relations between the parts), namely Standard German, or German for short. The latter short name also occurs in other language names, especially gsw "Swiss German", nds "Low German", pdc "Pennsylvania German", gsg "German Sign Language", sgg "Swiss-German Sign Language" (though not in asq "Austrian Sign Language"). As a consequence the labels "German(y) German" and "Austrian German" seem sufficient for national varieties of Standard German (de-DE and de-AT), but "Swiss German" is the label for gsw, so de-CH cannot be shortened to that and must be labelled "Swiss Standard German". Love —LiliCharlie (talk) 20:43, 8 November 2019 (UTC)

Changed "Swiss German" to "Swiss Standard German". As for Austrian, the article Austrian German discusses the standard variety of High German, so I'll defer to LiliCharlie and not change the label for now. Nardog (talk) 21:08, 8 November 2019 (UTC)

A discussion could use your input

A discussion at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Linguistics#IPA-x templates could use your input. --Gonnym (talk) 11:39, 22 January 2020 (UTC)

Empty small tags

The current IPA templates, such as Template:IPA-es, appear to unconditionally generate empty paired <small></small> tags for many outputs, which leads to redundant tags (and appears to be causing me downstream errors when I happen to use them via the article summary API; I am adding an ad hoc fix, but it'd be better to fix this upstream for all users).

For example on Yerba mate, the code from Spanish {{IPA-es|ˈʝeɾβa ˈmate|}} generates from Spanish <small></small><span title="Representation in the International Phonetic Alphabet (IPA)" class="IPA"><a href="/https/en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Help:IPA/Spanish" title="Help:IPA/Spanish">[ˈʝeɾβa ˈmate]</a></span>;.

<small></small> is undesirable output here, as it's meaningless and potentially problematic, and appears to be mandated by the template implementation doing the conditional inside rather than outside the tags (<small>{{#switch...}}</small> - but what if the switch yields nothing?). --Gwern (contribs) 02:52 5 January 2021 (GMT)

Use lang

Shouldn't these templates be emitting HTML like <span lang="de-fonipa" title="Representation in the International Phonetic Alphabet (IPA)" class="IPA" multilinks-noscroll="true"> <a href="/wiki/Help:IPA/Standard_German" title="Help:IPA/Standard German" multilinks-noscroll="true">[ˈbʁeːgɛnt͡s]</a></span>? I mean, there should be lang="xx-fonipa" on either the span or the a HTML tags. --Error (talk) 15:13, 10 May 2021 (UTC)

@Error, I just came to this page to ask this same question. This would be an improvement for visualizing IPA in any way with CSS and might also be useful for screen readers. This would follow International Phonetic Alphabet#IETF language tags. Any more input on this? --Marsupium (talk) 15:55, 8 June 2022 (UTC)

As I wrote in that section, lang="und-fonipa" can be used to tag plain IPA without referencing any particular language. However Template:IPA is used in the Template:IPA-*, so some mechanism to detect the context is needed. --Error (talk) 08:27, 9 June 2022 (UTC)

@Error: Something like lang="{{{ISO|{{#invoke:string|replace|{{ROOTPAGENAME}}|^(IPA%-)([a-z][a-z][a-z]?)|%2|plain=false}}}}}-fonipa" should do the trick, e.g. for {{IPA-fr}} giving lang="fr-fonipa". Local overwriting for (the only such non-ISO-code case?) {{IPA-cadia}} would be needed though. --Marsupium (talk) 09:45, 9 June 2022 (UTC)

{{ROOTPAGENAME}} will always give you the name of the page the template is transcluded in, not of the template that directly calls the template. Nardog (talk) 13:59, 9 June 2022 (UTC)

Nardog, oh, sure, thank you! Stupid me, didn’t think about that. Do we have a template way for getting the title of the page the code is put into? At least with Lua this would be possible. Marsupium (talk) 17:20, 9 June 2022 (UTC)

I think we should just do lang="{{{lang|und}}}-fonipa" in {{IPA}} and specify the language in each IPA-xx. Nardog (talk) 21:34, 9 June 2022 (UTC)

Nardog and Error, sorry for the delay! Yes, I guess you're right and using lang="und-fonipa" as you proposed is the best solution that doesn't over-complicate template code. Is there any admin or template editor around that could make the small required edits for {{IPA}} and {{IPA-all}}? Best, --Marsupium (talk) 10:55, 17 June 2022 (UTC)

Done (hopefully). The task was a bit more arduous than I thought and I might have screwed something up. Sorry in advance. We really need to move away from these IPA-xx templates, which are a mess (see these threads). Nardog (talk) 14:23, 17 June 2022 (UTC)

Thank you for the work! Just one comment: In {{IPA}} "{{#if:{{{lang|}}}|{{{lang}}}|und}}" looks like more complex code with the same result as the "{{{lang|und}}}" you had proposed above. Or am I missing some wiki syntax details (again)? Best, --Marsupium (talk) 14:32, 17 June 2022 (UTC)

It's to avoid lang="-fonipa" in case |lang= is given but empty. Nardog (talk) 14:38, 17 June 2022 (UTC)

Also there's hundreds of articles using class="IPA" directly in the source, which should be fixed. Nardog (talk) 14:49, 17 June 2022 (UTC)

Font size in infobox

There seems to be no way to override the small font size, so using the template in an infobox where the font is already reduced violates thr MOS. There should be a parameter to specify 100% font size. MB 02:19, 25 October 2021 (UTC)

Add "Mexican Spanish"

May we please add a function where it could make:

• {{IPA-es|tu|mex}} → Mexican Spanish: [tu]

Similar to what is already done:

• {{IPA-es|tu|am}} → American Spanish: [tu]

Thank you for your assistance, please do ping me, waddie96 ★ (talk) 19:38, 9 May 2022 (UTC)

P.S. Appears to also be a few issues/requests above that you could possibly help out with. waddie96 ★ (talk) 19:40, 9 May 2022 (UTC)

What's the need for this? IPA-es transcriptions, even ones assuming yeísmo and seseo, are usually labeled simply "Spanish". Nardog (talk) 19:45, 9 May 2022 (UTC)

 Not done for now: please establish a consensus for this alteration before using the {{edit template-protected}} template. Nardog (talk) 22:35, 10 May 2022 (UTC)

Can you please add templates for the variationa of Spanish such as Mexican Spanish? Jumark27 (talk) 17:37, 24 August 2022 (UTC)

No wrap

This templates use of no wrap spaces causes formatting issue on mobile. - LCU ActivelyDisinterested ∆transmissions∆ °co-ords° 21:00, 11 June 2022 (UTC)

Wrongly tagging IPA with language tags

@Nardog: Hey Nardog. Please, revert all the tagging of IPA to specific language, like in this case. I already reverted the {{IPA-arz}} one. The reason is as follows:

• That tags IPA script to language scripts which are written with different scripts, in this case, Arabic, which renders IPA so weird in what should display Arabic script.

Thanks. --Mahmudmasri (talk) 22:11, 26 June 2022 (UTC)

Tracing your edits, I saw the following comment:

add lang attribute, as discussed on talk

I haven't seen any discussion on the tagging. Where is it? BTW, on Wiktionary, the IPA text is not tagged, rather the word "(key)" is linked to the corresponding language pronunciation page. --Mahmudmasri (talk) 22:31, 26 June 2022 (UTC)

#Use lang right above on this page with @Error and Marsupium.

I didn't see this problem because I've set a font for the IPA class. It looks like this could be resolved by simply specifying the Latin script in addition to the language and IPA. Compare:

• arz-fonipa: [foo]
• arz-Latn-fonipa: [foo]

Is the latter still problematic for you? Nardog (talk) 23:51, 26 June 2022 (UTC)

I've gone ahead and added Latn. Let me know if the problem persists. Nardog (talk) 20:44, 27 June 2022 (UTC)

Hello @Nardog: Thank you very much for taking the time and effort to suggest a workaround. For me, the second suggestion (arz-Latn-fonipa: [foo]) renders "normally" to me. There is just one concern:

• Will the aforementioned code prevent the customized CSS for IPA from being used?
  • Example: {{IPA|[foo]}} should render like [foo]

Your example appears to me without any stylizing, e.g. in the lead. This is why I'm asking. I hope I don't need to add endless phrases to accommodate for all the possible IPA tags in my style. Thanks. --Mahmudmasri (talk) 22:25, 27 June 2022 (UTC)

Why would it? When I load your common.css the transcriptions appear in "Red Hat Mono". Whatever you set to .IPA should apply as long as it's not overridden by other styles with higher specificity. (English Wikipedia has long abandoned adding styles to .IPA.) Nardog (talk) 22:47, 27 June 2022 (UTC)

Regarding this example case, the classes span[lang|=arz-Latn] and span[lang|=arz] are triggered which annul the .IPA specifications, which moves back to the first point: adding a language tag to the IPA text denies the IPA specifications from being normally used in case the language specific codes are already stylized. --Mahmudmasri (talk) 00:13, 28 June 2022 (UTC)

Elaboration: span[lang|=arz-Latn] is there to stop span[lang|=arz] from being used in transliterated texts, but now the former is stopping all IPA styles. --Mahmudmasri (talk) 00:18, 28 June 2022 (UTC)

You can of course qualify the selector as in :not(.IPA), thought this is obviously not a really generalizable solution. @Error and Marsupium: Perhaps should we use simply und-fonipa regardless of the transcribed language? I want to know what's best from the accessibility point of view. Nardog (talk) 22:36, 28 June 2022 (UTC)

• Question: why do we need IPA texts tagged with language codes? Probably this is for the other two users who apparently wished for this to happen.

I would suggest to revert the tagging till you come up with another idea, in case IPA for every language still needs to be tagged. But remember, many languages don't have own {{IPA}}- templates and are notated with the generic {{IPA-all}}.

• How to add this :not(.IPA) to span[lang|=arz-Latn] and span[lang|=arz], for example?

--Mahmudmasri (talk) 01:50, 29 June 2022 (UTC)

The addition of the IETF tag is definitely an improvement from the semantics and accessibility points of view. The question that remains AFAICT is whether specifying the language being transcribed in the tag is an improvement too, or just und is fine. But we're not going to abandon it just because it ruined one person's CSS.

span[lang|=arz-Latn]:not(.IPA). Nardog (talk) 02:07, 3 July 2022 (UTC)

Thanks for the follow up. I haven't written Martian codes and everybody who specified language specific styles is affected. If it ain't broke, don't fix it. It seems that this unnecessary tagging was made to theoretically assist screen readers, but claiming that I'm the only one whose style were ruined is as discriminatory as ignoring users of screen readers who never complained in the first place. Thanks. --Mahmudmasri (talk) 17:52, 7 July 2022 (UTC)

Text size for {{IPA-pt}}

On mobile view, this is the only template that actually displays labels at a reduced size, probably because of a different html syntax. Can anyone change “85%” to “small” for consistency with all other templates? Or alternatively do the other way round. 〜イヴァンスクルージ九十八［IvanScrooge98］（会話） 07:23, 3 September 2022 (UTC)

We should probably ditch the small text altogether (see Template talk:IPA#Small Text). @Paine Ellsworth: Any progress on that front? Nardog (talk) 01:20, 4 September 2022 (UTC)

To editors Nardog and イヴァンスクルージ九十八: haven't heard anything new yet about a discussion in another venue. Probably would be better if the small text were to be improved. P.I. Ellsworth , ed. ^put'r there 01:37, 4 September 2022 (UTC)

Additional IPA template for Gronings

Hi, I am not sure if this is the right place to ask, but could someone (who is able to do so without breaking anything) add an IPA template for the language Gronings (ISO 639-3: gos)? The name should be Template:IPA-gos, I guess. I would like to add transcriptions in that language to some articles (e.g., places in the region where the language is spoken). It would be great if I could use a specific template for that, rather than the catch-all template. There is no dedicated key page (yet), but the article on the language has a phonology section, so I would suggest to use that as the page that the transcriptions link to. Thanks in advance! Isoglosse (talk) 16:22, 28 March 2023 (UTC)

Done. Nardog (talk) 00:55, 29 March 2023 (UTC)

Very helpful, thank you so much! I'll start using it shortly. Isoglosse (talk) 13:32, 29 March 2023 (UTC)

IPA-ga uses narrow transcription

Despite it being almost impossible to narrowly transcribe Irish words and phrases, the IPA-ga template uses [] square brackets, which are intended for narrow transcription. If you read Help:IPA/Irish, you'll see that the transcription standards used here are based on broad transcription (which uses // forward slashes). I intent to fix the template to more accurately represent this (by simply replacing the square brackets with forward slashes), but I am posting here to ask: Is there any underlying reason as to why this should not be done? Alpha2 5232 (talk) 08:40, 31 May 2023 (UTC)

Square brackets do not signify narrow transcription. They signify phonetic transcription. Broad and narrow, and phonemic and phonetic, are not the same, and phonetic transcriptions vary from broad to narrow. See Phonetic transcription#Narrow versus broad transcription, International Phonetic Alphabet#Brackets and transcription delimiters, or Handbook of the IPA, pp. 28–30.

As Wikipedia:Manual of Style/Pronunciation#Other languages says, If you wish to change those conventions, bring it up for discussion on the key's talk page. Creating transcriptions unsupported by the key or changing the key so that it no longer conforms to existing transcriptions will confuse readers. So propose your suggestions at Help talk:IPA/Irish before editing the key or any transcription. Nardog (talk) 08:51, 31 May 2023 (UTC)

Yes, I accidentally conflated the two. My original point intended to refer to phonemic/phonetic transcription. If you want to discuss this further, I made a post here Alpha2 5232 (talk) 16:21, 31 May 2023 (UTC)

double 'd' for Classical Persian in fa-IPA

I noticed that Persian رد (radd) has the Classical pronunciation of /ɾaðd/ and I don't think this can be correct. Exarchus (talk) 22:01, 9 June 2023 (UTC)

This is not a place to discuss content of Wiktionary. Nardog (talk) 22:12, 9 June 2023 (UTC)

"American Spanish" is ambiguous

There is a disambiguation page for American Spanish as it could refer to Spanish language in the United States or Spanish language in the Americas. In which sense is used in {{IPA-es|tu|am}}? As a native Rioplatense Spanish adding sound files, should I use the am value?

1ucian0 (talk) 19:53, 2 September 2023 (UTC)

The continents are what "American" is supposed to refer to, as the only variations allowed by the key are yeísmo and seseo (and not [h] for /s/, [ʒ] or [ʃ] for /ʝ/, etc.). But I tend to consider specifying the variety redundant, especially if the term being transcribed doesn't include ⟨c, z⟩ or ⟨ll⟩. Nardog (talk) 20:18, 2 September 2023 (UTC)

I see... so for Rioplatense Spanish, `am` should be included when yeísmo or seseo part of the term. Did I understand correctly? 1ucian0 (talk) 12:27, 10 January 2024 (UTC)

Rather, I consider the American label to be redundant when yeísmo or seseo are not included, but I don't necessarily think it "should" be included when they are either.

am no longer exists btw, the equivalent now is {{IPA|es-419|...}}, which produces "Latin American Spanish pronunciation: [...]". Nardog (talk) 22:13, 10 January 2024 (UTC)

Thanks! 1ucian0 (talk) 08:40, 11 January 2024 (UTC)