Talk:Nancy Astor, Viscountess Astor

Cleanup

Appears I was mistaken in my cleanup request before. It had appeared then that the article was a bit unorganized. I'd noticed the string of headings named after locations Lady Astor lived, followed by two headings which didn't follow this pattern. With a cursory glance, I assumed the subsections were out of chronological order, which as I now know isn't the case. If another is comfortable with the article as it is, respond here and feel free to remove the cleanup notice. jareha 19:06, 20 October 2005 (UTC)

This artcle is very well written & comprehensive. Begone unclean tag!

Strongly disagree. The writing is awkward and difficult to understand--strange verb tenses that don't scan (eg lots of 'had been's), unclear antecendents in the section about Nancy and Irene in New York, etc. And what on earth does this mean: "The marriage ended after her initial opposition by the condition that his adultery be stated as the cause of the divorce." And that's just in the first two sections. There is a little narrative flair here, but it needs pretty serious cleanup by someone who knows the subject.--Rmlucas 08:08, 27 July 2006 (UTC)

It takes parts of an essay I wrote for a British history seminar. I got an A for the paper, but granted writing for academia isn't the same as writing for Wikipedia. (Wikipedia being more populist, to put it nicely) My main concerns were that a paper is less NPOV. As for the one statement it means she initially resisted divorce as she considered that a sign of failure and against her religious ethics. She'd only accept divorce if it was stated that the marriage ended because of his adultery as that was a biblical justification that put the blame on him. Clearer?--T. Anthony 10:53, 4 August 2006 (UTC)

Cleanup July, 2007

I've done a fair bit of cleanup, mostly regarding verb usage/tense, formal tone, and clarity. When I started on it, it was a jumble of English and American spelling; despite the fact that both Lady Astor and I are Americans, I standardized (or is that "standardised"?) it all to English spellings. It needed to be one or the other, and I thought that was more appropriate since she spent most of her adult life there and is probably best known for being a Member of Parliament, and of course Lord Astor's wife. If anyone disagrees, feel free to change it. It was a gut decision at best.

The article still needs a good bit of work in my opinion. I'll be back to work on it, and of course I'm happy to have help, especially with sources because that's a weak area for me. And there are lots of places that need sources, far more than I've bothered to tag. Thanks! -- edi 10:54, 29 July 2007 (UTC)

Ok, I've done about all I can see to do with it, other than sourcing. I'd appreciate if someone could have a look just to see if I've missed anything... it's hard to proofread one's own work very reliably... and then maybe remove the other two tags and remove the article from the cleanup page. And, as I've said, the sourcing still needs to be done, but I'm opting out of that bit. It's just not my thing at all. Thanks again. -- edi 21:24, 29 July 2007 (UTC)

This article is now terribly jumbled and americanised again. Mainly in terminology, it refers to a period where she was talking to a "fellow House member", which rings greater familiarity with the fact that the US House of Representatives is often called the 'House'. In the UK they would be called a 'fellow MP' or a 'fellow member of the Commons'. Also it refers to her being 'popular in her district' when in the UK we call them 'constituencies'. I don't have the time to edit this, could someone else? 137.205.246.4 (talk) 19:12, 20 June 2010 (UTC)

A cleanup element? Under "Early years in Parliament" is the sentence "The Duchess of Atholl (elected to Parliament in 1923, four years after Lady Astor) rose to higher levels in the Tory Party before Astor did, and this was fine." The clause (and comma establishing the clause) "and this was fine" seems entirely unencyclopedic--unless unspoken is "fine with her," followed by a citation for same, or something. Kcor53 (talk) 14:00, 6 December 2014 (UTC)

I removed the clause.Kcor53 (talk) 16:32, 6 August 2015 (UTC)

D-Day-Dodger

A quick google search reveals this clarification: http://www.bbc.co.uk/ww2peopleswar/stories/70/a2708570.shtml

Anyone prepared to trawl through HANSARD, or is this enough of a source? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 149.170.39.36 (talk) 10:47, 21 November 2008 (UTC)

The entire 8th Army is enough of a source. They hated her to a man - it can't have been a fiction; my dad served from 1939 - 1945, and used to sing me to sleep with the cleaner verses when I was little. Now he is dead, I hate her in his stead. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 94.175.132.167 (talk) 00:38, 6 September 2011 (UTC)

Astor and Churchill

Is this the same Lady Astor who quipped often with Winston Churchill? I've heard of these:

He: "You're ugly."

She: "You're drunk!"

He: "Yes, but tomorrow i will be sober."

She: "If you were my husband, I'd put arsenic in your coffee."

He: "If I were your husband, I'd drink it!"

If this is indeed the same Lady Astor, can we add a few comments about her relationship with Churchill? Kent Wang 16:58, 30 July 2005 (UTC)

It is indeed the same Lady Astor, and by all means feel free to add anything you think is interesting. Proteus (Talk) 17:07, 30 July 2005 (UTC)

No thanks, too lazy! Anyone else wanna give it a shot? Kent Wang 15:50, 6 August 2005 (UTC)

The female half of this exchange has been attributed both to Labour MP Bessie Braddock & Lady Astor. Or it may be apocryphal altogether.Ghosts&empties 21:26, 7 February 2006 (UTC)

Perhaps it might be better to mention this statement between Lady Astor and Stalin. The British sent a delegation, incl. Lady Astor to Moscow to visit with Stalin and check his reaction to the recent events. This was during the Sitzkrieg and the Chamberlain government had not yet fallen. During these discussions Stalin asked about Churchill, who outside of the King was probably the single most famous Briton in the Empire. "Oh, he's finished." V. Joe (talk) 02:38, 27 December 2008 (UTC)

Lady Astor & "The Times"

Nothing is said about her link with "The Times" owned from 1922 to 1963 by her husband's brother John Jacob Astor, 1st Baron Astor of Hever (1886–1971). Its editor then was, like her, an activist of German appeasement, Geoffrey Dawson.

As members of the Milner group, Lady and Lord Astor used The Times to publicize the idea and the name "British Commonwealth of Nations". They used The Times to promote pro-British propaganda for the Second Boer War. It is highly significant and her involvement is highly relevant. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Xkit (talk • contribs) 00:31, 21 September 2014 (UTC)

The comment about the Second Boer War - ended 1902 - is not relevant to Lady Astor (if "They" refer to the couple) - not only was she not yet Lady Astor but she did not settle in England until 1905!Cloptonson (talk) 20:29, 15 September 2015 (UTC)

Birthday

Did anyone else happen to notice that Lady Astor and her husband shared the same birthday, both date and year? (19 May 1879)

Yes, but I have known that for years. -- JackofOz (talk) 12:39, 14 April 2009 (UTC)

Tags

I added POV and voice tags. At least the first sections are very casual and chatty, and contain conclusions, speculation and editorialising. Anchoress 17:11, 3 September 2006 (UTC)

Much of that is based on an essay I wrote in a Seminar class in Graduate School. I got an A, but I didn't really understand then how Wikipedia works. What's appropriate in class or academic settings can be too editorialized or speculative for here. I did try to tone it down some, but maybe not enough.--T. Anthony 23:09, 2 January 2007 (UTC)

I thought it sounded like a coursework! Yes, courses ask you to show that you are thinking and doing synthesis, but Wikipedia asks you to report established facts. The main problem with the article as it stands though is lack of references. Surely you needed those for your seminar essay? It would be useful if you at least listed a bibliography of where you found this information.--Jaibe 16:32, 7 July 2007 (UTC)

A late answer, but back then I wasn't sure how to translate my footnotes into notes on Wikipedia. I'm attempting that a bit tonight.--T. Anthony (talk) 09:49, 15 April 2009 (UTC)

Lady Astor & Joseph Kennedy

Much is said here of her anti-catholicism. But according to Joseph Kennedy's article, she enjoyed a friendship with him. They corresponded and the issue of antisemitism is how she shows up at Joseph Kennedy's entry. How did she come to be friends with Joseph Kennedy? PaulPk 17:56, 28 January 2007 (UTC)

I hadn't known she was until I came here. (Which means I'm skeptical of the significance of this friendship, or if it even amounted to a friendship, and would need more evidence than Wikipedia to believe it) I read several biographies of her in order to do my paper and I also read a collection of her letters. His name never came up so far as I can recall. The Anti-Catholicism is consistent in everything I ever read about her, much moreso than even antisemitism. (She was an anti-semite of course, but occasionally she would berate others as being "too obsessed with Jews." I never recall her saying anyone ever went too far, or was too obsessed, with hostility against Catholics or Communists) However she still could've been friends with Kennedy as she had individual Catholics as friends. She seems to have been prejudiced to groups more than individuals. She also hated Communists, as a group, but as individuals she liked some Communists. She feared/distrusted Catholics as a group, but individual Catholics she could get along with fine. That and she was kind of a ditz without much consistency or depth. (This is probably why I wouldn't do a good NPOV on her. I didn't believe the common accusations against her, but I nevertheless came to dislike her immensely for other reasons)--T. Anthony 12:03, 3 February 2007 (UTC)

Here's something from Rennehan on the Kennedy/Astor friendship

"Viscountess Nancy Witcher Langhorne Astor assured Kennedy early in their friendship that he should not be put off by her pronounced and proud anti-Catholicism. 'I'm glad you are smart enough not to take my [views] personally,'"--T. Anthony 12:11, 3 February 2007 (UTC)

Cliveden

A minor point, but Cliveden itself wasn't turned into a hospital in WW1. Rather, the indoor tennis court became the foundation of the Duchess of Connaught's Canadian Red Cross Hospital, and grew from there. The hospital was dismantled after the war, but a new one was built in the grounds at the outbreak of WW2, when the Astors once more offered the space to the Canadian Army Medical Corps. An account of this second hospital, only recently demolished, can be read in the autobiography by Dr.Charles H.A.Walton - Medical Odyssey: Vignettes of People and Events at Home and Abroad. The Winnipeg Clinic, 1980. 65.95.29.246 12:25, 30 May 2007 (UTC)

Why, Charlie, you know

I'm trying to see the humour of the "Why, Charlie, you know" repsonse to the "what have the Astors done for me?" heckler. I'm guessing she's pretending to be a good friend of "Charlie" the heckler, but (a) I'm not sure that's the right explanation and (b) I don't think it's very funny. Is there no clearer example of her supposedly sharp repartee that might replace this confusing squib? jnestorius^(talk) 12:28, 28 November 2007 (UTC)

I think it's situational humor based in the era and its mores. The way it was presented in the research I read British politicians were not proned to act this informally, at least not if they were wealthy Tories responding to hecklers. As I recall the man was confused by her reaction, as was the audience, and confusion can be amusing. A bit of it might be the "we're amused by the odd manners of foreigners" tendency, something she was willing to play on. (Although in time I hope the British realized she was just odd and that not all of her peculiarity can be chalked up to her being from Virginia)--T. Anthony (talk) 09:40, 2 June 2008 (UTC)

I think "Why, Charlie, you know" has a sexual insinuation somewhere inside. Likely said with a wink. Might seem too saucy for the era (people think of the past like they think of their parents, ie sexless) but that's what made it a memorable quote. 76.105.254.23 (talk) 10:41, 31 October 2010 (UTC)

I'm a bit skeptical of that as she was a bit of a prude, or at least I don't recall reading that she was one to flirt while married.--T. Anthony (talk) 02:06, 8 June 2011 (UTC)

Elsewhere it's noted that she is reknowned for saucy talk combined with "proper" action. That would be consistent with this sort of response: apparently flirtateous, without any actual evidence of misbehaviour. GreenAsJade (talk) 11:36, 5 April 2013 (UTC)

Early life

...labour and had been badly damaged by the effects of the American Civil War. Because of this, Nancy Langhorne's early years were spent in near-poverty conditions, but shortly after her birth her father regained the family wealth, first as an auctioneer and later through his involvement with the railroad.

This frankly does not make a lot of sense. If her father regained the family wealth shortly after her birth (a year? a month? a week?) how could her early years have been spent in near poverty? Clarification would be helpful here. BingoDingo (talk) 19:17, 28 November 2007 (UTC)

Her father went through a poor period that started sometime in the life of her older siblings, but was nearly at end when she was born. I think her memories of poverty are mostly from before age 6. I tried to clarify this.--T. Anthony (talk) 09:53, 2 June 2008 (UTC)

The Langhorne family was quite flush before the Civil War, but as with many Virginia gentry families, the conflict cost them most of their wealth. The modest house into which they moved in Danville, Virginia, stands testament to their reduced circumstances. (I've posted a photo link to the home.) Nancy's father was lucky in that he had connections in one of the South's few growth industries following the Civil War: the railroad. He built his next fortune on those connections, and that enabled him to restore the family's circumstances and purchase the Mirador estate in Albemarle County, Virginia. (The Langhornes hailed originally from Danville, Pittsylvania County, which is Virginia's Southside). Regards, MarmadukePercy (talk) 02:48, 27 December 2008 (UTC)

Makes no sense...

"...Nancy met and married her first husband, Robert Gould Shaw, a relative of Robert Gould Shaw of Fort Wagner fame,..."

Her first husband was related to himself? The statement either needs to be reworded/corrected, or removed. Duchess of Bathwick (talk · contribs) 03:07, 14 April 2009 (UTC)

I'm pretty sure it's a different guy with the same name. Some families recycle name-combinations, particularly before the 20th c.--T. Anthony (talk) 11:24, 14 April 2009 (UTC)

Good catch, Duchess. :) Better now? -- edi(talk) 15:39, 14 April 2009 (UTC)

someone has cut and paste this entire page into their website http://entertainment.webshots.com/photo/2794646010094285158JqTzoq

Poor practice this isn't it? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.138.161.253 (talk) 08:11, 9 June 2009 (UTC)

Move Quotes section to Wikiquote?

I don't think the quotes section should be here. Move it to wikiquote. Also, while these quotes are sometimes attributed to her, its doubtful she said most of them. "I marry beneath me, all women do" has been attributed to nearly every famous, controversial married woman in history. In my opinion it's a shame for anyone to associate these quotes with a racist, callous, trouble-making, attention-craving snob, especially the famous quotes used on feminist bumper stickers. She wasn't really all that witty, just outrageous and paranoid. (Compared to Sarah Palin though she's bloody Oscar Wilde.) Her sense of humor relied on controversy, not cleverness. Check out her correspondence; it convinced me she faked her way into Bartlett's. 76.105.254.23 (talk) 10:54, 31 October 2010 (UTC)

• I would love to be able to move the quotes to Wikiquote, but as you said, many are of dubious pedigree and would not survive the trip. I am preserving them here until someone can show a source. Once proper attribution can be established, people may move them to Wikiquote, or ping me and I'll be happy to do it for them. Krychek (talk) 21:26, 1 June 2017 (UTC)

Nancy Astor is nearly as famous for her scathing wit as she is for her political career. Examples of statements that have been attributed to her include:

• I married beneath me. All women do.
• I refuse to admit that I am more than fifty-two, even if that does make my sons illegitimate.
• In passing, also, I would like to say that the first time Adam had a chance he laid the blame on a woman.
• My vigour, vitality, and cheek repel me. I am the kind of woman I would run from.
• One reason why I don't drink is because I wish to know when I am having a good time.
• Pioneers may be picturesque figures, but they are often rather lonely ones.
• Real education should educate us out of self into something far finer; into a selflessness which links us with all humanity.
• The main dangers in this life are the people who want to change everything... or nothing.
• The only thing I like about rich people is their money.
• The penalty for success is to be bored by the people who used to snub you.
• Women have got to make the world safe for men since men have made it so darned unsafe for women.
• We women talk too much, but even then we don't tell half what we know.
• Jakie, is it my birthday or am I dying? (Seeing all her children assembled at her bedside in her last illness.)
• What do those earthworms want now? (On hearing of the 1930s miners' strike)

Location of Cliveden

Isn't Cliveden located in Buckinghamshire? Kalpak (talk) 00:48, 28 November 2010 (UTC)kalpak

Alleged Nazi Sympathies?

A section called 'Nazi Sympathies' doesn't seem to have evidence of such, and as such a serious allegation, it should really be more absolute. In fact unless there's verifiable proof, even the amended title - ALLEGED Nazi sympathies - is still rather strong. 'Position on Nazism' or something perhaps? Marty jar (talk) 19:25, 20 July 2011 (UTC)

Churchill / Lady Astor

I removed the reference to Churchill and Lady Astor. He made the comment about being sober in the morning to Bessie Braddock. He would never have said it to Lady Astor - she was beautiful and a fellow Tory MP. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.166.150.40 (talk) 19:27, 27 September 2011 (UTC)

I think this is a confusion with a recorded conversation when Astor told Churchill that if he was her husband she would poison his coffee, to which he replied "If I were your husband I would drink it". The conversation has been recorded as taking place at a house party when Churchill was already an MP but Astor yet to become one, and was not one made in Parliament.Cloptonson (talk) 08:59, 18 October 2015 (UTC)

Citizenship

She is in the category Naturalized citizens which I hope is a requiring to hold office but the text of the article doesn't seem to mention when this occurred. Does anyone know the year? I notice her husband's article (also an American-born UK politician) doesn't have him in that category or mention his date of naturalization either. And her father-in-law's article (a UK nob but not a politician) mentions his naturalization date but doesn't have him in the category. Rmhermen (talk) 15:50, 30 December 2011 (UTC)

D-Day Dodgers

In the wikipedia page about D-Day Dodgers, it says that Lady Astor denies being the person who coined this phrase. In this article it doesn't mention this - it implies that she did in fact say this.

It seems like it would be fair to her to note this possibility - that she perhaps did not say this.

GreenAsJade (talk) 11:37, 5 April 2013 (UTC)

Done! Benevolent Prawn (talk) 09:11, 1 January 2024 (UTC)

Relationship with her sons

Nothing about her relationship with her sons, especially the disastrous elder two, Bobbie the alcoholic jailbird and Bill who starred in the Profumo scandal. Valetude (talk) 05:09, 12 June 2013 (UTC)

I decided to revive the article about Robert Gould Shaw III, but the other children all have articles.--T. Anthony (talk) 10:58, 28 June 2013 (UTC)

First Christian Scientist MP?

While the section examining her interest in Christian Science does not pinpoint a conversion date, I notice it was before her election as MP. Can she be claimed as the First Christian Scientist by/general election victor? (I asked this question about Victor Cazalet in talk page of his article but he can be ruled out seeing his first election to the House was in 1924.)Cloptonson (talk) 20:38, 5 January 2014 (UTC)

Alas that section was removed for a time even though it's pretty significant to most of what I read of her. I've partially returned it with better sourcing. As to whether she was the first CSer in British Parliament, I don't know. Sounds plausible, but I can't say for certain.--T. Anthony (talk) 14:06, 13 June 2014 (UTC)

The only reason that got removed was because it had no sources at all. Snuggums (talk • contributions) 14:16, 13 June 2014 (UTC)

Oddly I was trying to edit the above to reflect that while you were typing.

I was disappointed no one found the books I referred to, and cited the appropriate pages therein, not even after three years. It was from biographies of her, but I grant maybe needed to be more fact-driven than I did. Also I grant religion is a very touchy subject, particularly on Wikipedia, so possibly no one wanted to "touch that section." I may expand the revived section, with more sources, on my own. Although at present I'm ill so it may have to wait.--T. Anthony (talk) 14:22, 13 June 2014 (UTC)

Her most recent British biography (think it came out this year - it is in paperback at my local Waterstones) describes her exploration of Christian Science in detail and places what she would have considered her spiritual conversion to early 1914 (pre-WWI). So she was Christian Scientist when she entered parliament but question remains was she a Parliamentary first? (Non-Anglican dissenters had been allowed in parliament since much of the 19th century.) The book does not state she was a first, nor comment if she had predecessors. Cloptonson (talk) 05:37, 15 July 2014 (UTC)

This was added but invisible due to improper formatting ....

This could be seen in Edit mode under the WW2 section about the song, "The D-Day ..." - it wasn't visible in the article: ' < ! -- It was tommy-rot in the published versions, but as written, it was bloody rot - as sung in Pipes, Goatskin & Bones. The first sentence of this para can be cited via Raymond Ross's anthology of Henderson's poetry and songs.-- > ' whatever it is, what were you trying to do with it? Note what the < and > brackets do. HammerFilmFan (talk) 14:00, 28 November 2014 (UTC)

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Temperance

The second paragraph of the introduction states, "Astor was an advocate for temperance, welfare, education reform and women's rights." I added links to all subjects, however I wasn't quite sure about temperance; it could refer to abstinence from alcohol, or a manner of living in general. None of the cited sources specifically identified this issue, however one did note that she got the legal age for sale of alcohol raised from 14 (!!) to 18. Temperance, as it relates to alcohol, seemed the most likely choice anyway, considering the context. But just thought I'd point out it wasn't entirely clear. Ghost writer's cat (talk) 02:51, 2 June 2024 (UTC)