Talk:Zionism: Difference between revisions
Selfstudier (talk | contribs) |
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:::You can add [https://www.alhaq.org/advocacy/20219.html Al-Haq and 90 Palestinian and international organisations] that "sent a joint submission to the [[Independent International Commission of Inquiry on the Occupied Palestinian Territory]] examining Zionist settler colonialism and apartheid as the root causes of Israel’s ongoing violations of the inalienable rights of the Palestinian people." |
:::You can add [https://www.alhaq.org/advocacy/20219.html Al-Haq and 90 Palestinian and international organisations] that "sent a joint submission to the [[Independent International Commission of Inquiry on the Occupied Palestinian Territory]] examining Zionist settler colonialism and apartheid as the root causes of Israel’s ongoing violations of the inalienable rights of the Palestinian people." |
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:::Not entirely sure what you mean by "mainstream" (or when) but the settler colonial paradigm is clearly a significant view that cannot be blithely dismissed. [[User:Selfstudier|Selfstudier]] ([[User talk:Selfstudier|talk]]) 17:28, 18 May 2024 (UTC) |
:::Not entirely sure what you mean by "mainstream" (or when) but the settler colonial paradigm is clearly a significant view that cannot be blithely dismissed. [[User:Selfstudier|Selfstudier]] ([[User talk:Selfstudier|talk]]) 17:28, 18 May 2024 (UTC) |
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::::@[[User:Selfstudier|Selfstudier]], you seem like an experienced editor, and at this point I suppose it should be clear that advocacy organizations are not reliable sources. I also agree with the above: Ilan Pappe, Nur Masalha, and Avi Shlaim are known for their critical analysis, often presenting fringe views, of Zionism and Israel. Pappe himself was a central figure in Hadash, a far-left party in Israel, and multiple reliable sources label him a controversial figure. I see no reason to change the current lead, which accurately portrays the settler-colonialist view as a critical view. I'm really noticing more and more of these fringe views taking center stage in these articles, and honestly, it's starting to be really concerning. [[User:ABHammad|ABHammad]] ([[User talk:ABHammad|talk]]) 07:14, 19 May 2024 (UTC) |
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== Non Jewish Support == |
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Role in Arab-Israeli Conflict
This added section appears simply to be taken from only one source (political activist Norman Finkelstein). Even the quotations from Ben-Gurion and Morris are merely taken from Finkelstein and represent his selections and interpretations of their words.
Definition of Zionism
Are there any widespread definitions of Zionism in RS that go beyond the current theoretical scope of "creating and maintaining a Jewish state", i.e. more practical ones relating to its expansionism? Makeandtoss (talk) 12:44, 22 March 2024 (UTC)
- Another try. Makeandtoss (talk) 20:10, 11 April 2024 (UTC)
- There is the description of benny morris: "Zionist ideology and practice were necessarily and elementally expansionist" DMH223344 (talk) 16:14, 12 April 2024 (UTC)
- Something more factual and less of what would appear as an opinion? Makeandtoss (talk) 20:04, 12 April 2024 (UTC)
- Are you looking for statements from israeli officials? DMH223344 (talk) 00:06, 13 April 2024 (UTC)
- No, but factual encyclopedia style definitions within the scope of it being Israel's national ideology; i.e. expansionist, settler-ist, etc. Makeandtoss (talk) 07:49, 13 April 2024 (UTC)
- Are you looking for statements from israeli officials? DMH223344 (talk) 00:06, 13 April 2024 (UTC)
- Something more factual and less of what would appear as an opinion? Makeandtoss (talk) 20:04, 12 April 2024 (UTC)
- From Israel Shahak:
DMH223344 (talk) 16:34, 13 April 2024 (UTC)Zionism is an ideology. Its political/national form, with which this essay is concerned, is the foundation for the State of Israel’s national character. It dictates much of Israel’s foreign and domestic conduct. In the state’s international policies, Zionism is a major consideration along with the state’s militarism in shaping Israel’s territorial aspirations. In domestic affairs, the state’s “fundamental” or “basic” laws are predicated upon the basic Zionist concept that “the Jewish people” is included in Israel’s nationality constituency.
- Also from this same collection of essays. ROSELLE TEKINER:
DMH223344 (talk) 22:27, 25 April 2024 (UTC)Israel was constructed on a model provided by political Zionism, the basic premise of which is that Israel is “the state of the Jews.”
- Also from this same collection of essays. ROSELLE TEKINER:
BCE and CE
It's BC and AD. No reason to change it except if you are offended by it's reference to Jesus. Using BC and AD doesn't mean you believe in Jesus. It's still the same point in time and by rejecting it's origin intentionally says alot about the lack of tolerance of those that change it. Woodmiser (talk) 12:46, 5 April 2024 (UTC)
- "doesn't mean you believe in Jesus" Actually it does... the the B one implies a claim to who J is, while the A one is a claim that J is ones lord. — al-Shimoni (talk) 16:28, 29 April 2024 (UTC)
Modern Zionism
"Following the establishment of the modern state of Israel, Zionism became an ideology that supports the development and protection of the State of Israel as a Jewish state." this isn't an accurate definition of modern Zionism. Some varying definitions: the national ideology of Israel Vox Anyone has others that could be considered? Makeandtoss (talk) 20:19, 11 April 2024 (UTC)
- Very interestingly Pappe calls Zionism a state ideology which I personally think is a perfect characterization, that is certainly better and more reflective of reality than the “development and protection of Israel.” Any other sources have mentioned similar definitions? Makeandtoss (talk) 20:56, 25 April 2024 (UTC)
- Where did you find this? DMH223344 (talk) 22:37, 25 April 2024 (UTC)
- I'm only just starting to flip through the book, but "Zionism: an emotional state" by Penslar and the citations within looks like it could be useful here. DMH223344 (talk) 17:47, 26 April 2024 (UTC)
- It was a podcast so not very relevant, should have been clearer. But is still in my opinion a perfect definition, not sure yet if it is supported by RS or not. Makeandtoss (talk) 09:51, 29 April 2024 (UTC)
- "Political ideology" is very well represented in sources. "Development and protection" seems not quite right, the modern idea as I understand it is that Jews are a people or a nation and the State is supposed to be their "home", a sort of Jewish nationalism. Selfstudier (talk) 10:04, 29 April 2024 (UTC)
- That sounds right, and is consistent historically as well. If you have specific sources I would appreciate if you could share. No need for page numbers. DMH223344 (talk) 14:12, 29 April 2024 (UTC)
- There have been different sorts of Zionism over the years, supposedly secular, the version with a religious overlay has a hold these days. Selfstudier (talk) 14:27, 29 April 2024 (UTC)
- On sourcing, idk where to start, there is plenty of it around, maybe start with Beyond the Nation-State: The Zionist Political Imagination from Pinsker to Ben-Gurion - Dmitry Shumsky Intro and conclusions. Selfstudier (talk) 14:34, 29 April 2024 (UTC)
- That sounds right, and is consistent historically as well. If you have specific sources I would appreciate if you could share. No need for page numbers. DMH223344 (talk) 14:12, 29 April 2024 (UTC)
- "Political ideology" is very well represented in sources. "Development and protection" seems not quite right, the modern idea as I understand it is that Jews are a people or a nation and the State is supposed to be their "home", a sort of Jewish nationalism. Selfstudier (talk) 10:04, 29 April 2024 (UTC)
- It was a podcast so not very relevant, should have been clearer. But is still in my opinion a perfect definition, not sure yet if it is supported by RS or not. Makeandtoss (talk) 09:51, 29 April 2024 (UTC)
- Saw that you added a vox citation for this. The author is zach beauchamp who also once wrote in vox that there is a bridge for palestinians to travel between the west bank and gaza. I don't think we should cite his work on this topic. DMH223344 (talk) 13:49, 2 May 2024 (UTC)
Improper Citations
Giving a heads up for anyone who wants to issue corrections before improperly cited items items are excised.
Please feel free to restore any appropriate items with the correct and detailed citations. Mistamystery (talk) 16:40, 16 April 2024 (UTC)
- Please be specific. IOHANNVSVERVS (talk) 23:13, 16 April 2024 (UTC)
- I added some citations to the content you recently objected to. IOHANNVSVERVS (talk) 23:37, 16 April 2024 (UTC)
- Citation 183 (Morris) is still deadlinked. Mistamystery (talk) 23:43, 16 April 2024 (UTC)
- Inconsequenntial as a link is not needed anyway. If you like you can remove or replace the link. IOHANNVSVERVS (talk) 23:48, 16 April 2024 (UTC)
- I removed the dead link. IOHANNVSVERVS (talk) 23:52, 16 April 2024 (UTC)
- Citation 183 (Morris) is still deadlinked. Mistamystery (talk) 23:43, 16 April 2024 (UTC)
- Sources don't require links. They don't even have to be on the internet. Zerotalk 14:33, 17 April 2024 (UTC)
- It’s not about links. There were citations that were poorly and improperly created by an editor, so will do a review. Beyond this, have a general concern about dishonest edits and mischaracterization of sources so will have a look-see.Mistamystery (talk) 15:15, 17 April 2024 (UTC)
APC?
@Mistamystery: Can you please clarify what APC stands for? I couldn't understand your revert summary without knowing that. UpdateNerd (talk) 07:08, 18 April 2024 (UTC)
- American Palestine Committee. You said it was "pro-Israel" but it was not operating when Israel was in existence. Mistamystery (talk) 07:11, 18 April 2024 (UTC)
- Oh ok that makes sense. Its stance wasn't totally clear from the text, being prefaced by the vague (and unsourced) claim it was "highly effective", in addition to the name which is a bit misleading at a glance. UpdateNerd (talk) 07:20, 18 April 2024 (UTC)
- No, it doesn't explain why Mistamystery also removed a large quotation from Ben-Gurion giving a reason or even mentioning it in the edit summary. Zerotalk 10:19, 18 April 2024 (UTC)
Thought this was already restored with the minor correction requested. I'll just do it for him now.Scratch that. Upon review, he distorted, as well as mischaracterized the quote (which is probably why he has yet to restore it). I'll wait for him to give explanation. Mistamystery (talk) 12:51, 18 April 2024 (UTC)- In what way was the quote mischaracterized? Also you removed the citation needed from "the impact of Nazi propaganda aimed at the Arab world fostered the 1936–1939 Arab revolt in Palestine." Which reference supports this? IOHANNVSVERVS (talk) 14:22, 18 April 2024 (UTC)
- Here is the full quote from Flapan's book, with the editors "selects" in bold:
I want to destroy first of all the illusion among our comrades that the [Arab] terror is a matter of a few gangs, financed from abroad ... We are facing not terror but a war. It is a national war declared upon us by the Arabs. Terror is one of the means of war ... This is an active resistance by the Palestinians to what they regard as a usurpation of their homeland by the Jews — that's why they fight. Behind the terrorists is a movement, which though primitive is not devoid of idealism and self-sacrifice. From the time of Sheikh Izz al din al Qassam it was dear to me that we were facing a new phenomenon among the Arabs. This is not Nashashibi, not the Mufti, not a matter of a political career or money. Sheikh Al Qassam was a zealot ready to sacrifice his life for an ideal. Today we have not one, but hundreds perhaps thousands [like him]. Behind them is the Arab people. In our political argument abroad, we minimize Arab opposition to us. But let us not ignore the truth among ourselves. I insist on the truth, not out of respect for scientific but political realities. The acknowledgement of this truth leads to inevitable and serious conclusions regarding our work in Palestine ... let us not build on the hope the terrorist gangs will get tired. If some get tired, others will replace them. A people which fights against the usurpation of its land will not tire so easily ... it is easier for them to continue the war and not get tired than it is for us ... The Palestinian Arabs are not alone. The Syrians are coming to help. From our point of view, they are strangers; in the point of law they are foreigners; but to the Arabs, they are not foreigners at all... The centre of the war is in Palestine but its dimensions are much wider. When we say that the Arabs are the aggressors and we defend ourselves — this is only half the truth. As regards our security and life we defend ourselves and our moral and physical position is not bad. We can face the gangs . . . and were we allowed to mobilize all our forces we would have no doubts about the outcome . . . But the fighting is only one aspect of the conflict which is in its essence a political one. And politically we are the aggressors and they defend themselves. Militarily, it is we who are on the defensive who have the upper hand . . . but in the political sphere they are superior. The land, the villages, the mountains, the roads are in their hands. The country is theirs, because they inhabit it, whereas we want to come here and settle down, and in their view we want to take away from them their country, while we are still outside. They defend bases which are theirs, which is easier than conquering new bases ... let us not think that the terror is a result of Hitler's or Mussolini’s propaganda — this helps but the source of opposition is there among the Arabs.
- In no way does this quote support the assertion that "the main source of fear for Zionists was the defensive strength of Palestinians." This is pure POV cherry pick (that also seems to have been pulled from a talking point site like this one). Mistamystery (talk) 16:10, 18 April 2024 (UTC)
- You are correct that the selection and summary are not good. However, this quote (presumably in abbreviated form) does belong. Zerotalk 01:26, 19 April 2024 (UTC)
- Agree that the quote belongs. And Morris even quotes it in Righteous Victims as "When we say that the Arabs are the aggressors and we defend ourselves—that is only half the truth. As regards our security and life we defend ourselves.… But the fighting is only one aspect of the conflict, which is in its essence a political one. And politically we are the aggressors and they defend themselves." This passage immediately precedes Morris' quote in this article saying that "Ben-Gurion, of course, was right." IOHANNVSVERVS (talk) 01:57, 19 April 2024 (UTC)
- I think it all depends on what "the quote" is and how it is framed. It seems that many parties over the years have taken to extract little slices of a juicily worded, but complex speech, for their own purposes.
- I'm also concerned about the English translation used in the Flapan's book, which seems generally to be the mother source for most modern citations.
- Militarily, it is we who are on the defensive who have the upper hand" doesn't make any sense..there's something amiss here.
- I kind of want to see the full original speech and in Hebrew, as well as see if the speech has been alternately translated since. Mistamystery (talk) 02:38, 19 April 2024 (UTC)
- It's not that complex and is rather straightforward. Avi Shlaim even says of Ben-Gurion: "Because ideologically less hidebound than his colleagues, he was willing to admit that in political terms they were the aggressors while the Arabs were defending themselves." IOHANNVSVERVS (talk) 03:37, 19 April 2024 (UTC)
- MM, I don't see anything strange about that sentence. Anyway, you can check if the Minutes of the Mapai Political Committee of July 6, 1938 are online at the Labor Party Archives where the original is held. Zerotalk 11:26, 19 April 2024 (UTC)
- Agree that the quote belongs. And Morris even quotes it in Righteous Victims as "When we say that the Arabs are the aggressors and we defend ourselves—that is only half the truth. As regards our security and life we defend ourselves.… But the fighting is only one aspect of the conflict, which is in its essence a political one. And politically we are the aggressors and they defend themselves." This passage immediately precedes Morris' quote in this article saying that "Ben-Gurion, of course, was right." IOHANNVSVERVS (talk) 01:57, 19 April 2024 (UTC)
- You are correct that the selection and summary are not good. However, this quote (presumably in abbreviated form) does belong. Zerotalk 01:26, 19 April 2024 (UTC)
- In what way was the quote mischaracterized? Also you removed the citation needed from "the impact of Nazi propaganda aimed at the Arab world fostered the 1936–1939 Arab revolt in Palestine." Which reference supports this? IOHANNVSVERVS (talk) 14:22, 18 April 2024 (UTC)
- What a find. Thank you.
- Re: meaning, what is your take on this sentence in general then? Is there a direct meaning to be taken, or is he being poetic via a series of contradictions? Politically they’re the aggressors but the other side is superior? They’re militarily defensive but have the upper hand?
Mistamystery (talk) 14:21, 19 April 2024 (UTC)”And politically we are the aggressors and they defend themselves. Militarily, it is we who are on the defensive who have the upper hand . . . but in the political sphere they are superior”
- It makes perfect sense read literally and I don't understand why you have a problem with it. Zerotalk 04:34, 20 April 2024 (UTC)
- "Morris describes the Zionist goal of establishing a Jewish state in Palestine as necessarily displacing and dispossessing the Arab population."
- Exact quote from Morris please? Mistamystery (talk) 03:48, 19 April 2024 (UTC)
- I didn't add that sentence but perhaps "The Zionists were intent on politically, or even physically, dispossessing and supplanting the Arabs." IOHANNVSVERVS (talk) 13:04, 19 April 2024 (UTC)
- It was added by @DMH223344: on 2 February. However on the same day, another editor removed Finkelstein "According to Morris, the idea of ethnically cleansing the land of Palestine was to play a large role in Zionist ideology from the inception of the movement. He explains that "transfer" was "inevitable and inbuilt into Zionism" and that a land which was primarily Arab could not be transformed into a Jewish state without displacing the Arab population. Further, the stability of the Jewish state could not be ensured given the Arab population's fear of displacement. He explains that this would be the primary source of conflict between the Zionist movement and the Arab population.[1]" which supports the statement. Selfstudier (talk) 13:17, 19 April 2024 (UTC)
- The removing editor has been sock blocked. Selfstudier (talk) 13:20, 19 April 2024 (UTC)
- That reminds me that I just added a footnote to that info a few days ago reading: Benny Morris, The Birth of the Palestinian Refugee Problem Revisited (2003) "Transfer was inevitable and inbuilt into Zionism – because it sought to transform a land which was ‘Arab’ into a ‘Jewish’ state and a Jewish state could not have arisen without a major displacement of Arab population; and because this aim automatically produced resistance among the Arabs which, in turn, persuaded the Yishuv’s leaders that a hostile Arab majority or large minority could not remain in place if a Jewish state was to arise or safely endure." IOHANNVSVERVS (talk) 13:30, 19 April 2024 (UTC)
- It was added by @DMH223344: on 2 February. However on the same day, another editor removed Finkelstein "According to Morris, the idea of ethnically cleansing the land of Palestine was to play a large role in Zionist ideology from the inception of the movement. He explains that "transfer" was "inevitable and inbuilt into Zionism" and that a land which was primarily Arab could not be transformed into a Jewish state without displacing the Arab population. Further, the stability of the Jewish state could not be ensured given the Arab population's fear of displacement. He explains that this would be the primary source of conflict between the Zionist movement and the Arab population.[1]" which supports the statement. Selfstudier (talk) 13:17, 19 April 2024 (UTC)
- I didn't add that sentence but perhaps "The Zionists were intent on politically, or even physically, dispossessing and supplanting the Arabs." IOHANNVSVERVS (talk) 13:04, 19 April 2024 (UTC)
- Exact quote from Morris please? Mistamystery (talk) 03:48, 19 April 2024 (UTC)
- Forgive my delayed response, had been away and only just realized the conversation's liveliness. Just to be clear, I didn't mean to distort any of the quote's meaning, but I did frame it a certain way given that the subsection focuses on the rise of Nazism. It's probably better not to try to make the quote fit the subsection, and just paraphrase it, which I think can be done without discarding too much of my original edit attempt. Obviously, because it's Wikipedia, feel free to work on the revision. UpdateNerd (talk) 03:38, 22 April 2024 (UTC)
References
ethno-nationalist instead of nationalist
The lead says "Zionism (/ˈzaɪ.ənɪzəm/ ZY-ə-niz-əm; Hebrew: צִיּוֹנוּת, romanized: Ṣīyyonūt, IPA: [tsijoˈnut]; derived from Zion) is a nationalist movement" but isnt "ethnic-nationalist" more accurate. After all, in Israel there is no such thing as an Israeli national--only Jewish nationals. DMH223344 (talk) 22:21, 25 April 2024 (UTC)
Lede
The following line is OR and UNDUE for lede and should be removed:
"Proponents of Zionism do not necessarily reject the characterization of Zionism as settler-colonial or exceptionalist."
The sources provided merely cite usage of those words, and do not clearly articulate non-rejection of the characterization as per its contemporary use. As per previous (unjustifiably reverted) edit, the usage of the words "settler" and "colonial" do not automatically confer "settler colonialism" by modern usage and definition. (Further reading and refs here re: widespread rejection of the application of the term by zionist commentators).
To the second point, the Finkelstein quote is in response to a *single* commentator. To invoke "proponents" would need more than reference to a single voice. Mistamystery (talk) 03:24, 28 April 2024 (UTC)
- I can't say I understand your objection to this content. Although probably we should specify that Zionists describing Zionism as colonialism was more common in the past and has fallen out of favour due to having negative connotations/reception today. IOHANNVSVERVS (talk) 16:34, 28 April 2024 (UTC)
- Sourced material is OR? Since when? Selfstudier (talk) 16:41, 28 April 2024 (UTC)
- Better wording and sources is possible, and I'm not sure what point is being made. Up to about the second half of the mandate period, Zionists nearly always referred to their enterprise as colonialist. That is true in all the Zionist Congressus up to at least 1937 (as far as I have the protocols). The 1937 protocols have about 100 uses of different forms of the word. The reason they were free with this description is that they didn't consider colonialism to be a negative thing. The attempt to whitewash this by claiming that the meaning of "colonialism" was different then fails for having no basis in fact. The meaning of the word is the same then and now; only the attitude of the world towards the practice has changed. The imperfect division of colonialism into settler and exploitative forms is a modern analysis, so we can't say that early Zionists called their enterprise settler-colonialist. Zerotalk 02:19, 29 April 2024 (UTC)
Settler colonialism
Why is settler colonialism mentioned as a criticism of Zionism rather than how it is defined? It seems even Israeli historian Benny Morris has labelled it as such, and that its early proponents understood it as such. Makeandtoss (talk) 12:06, 2 May 2024 (UTC)
- Agreed the description as a settler colonialist project should not be limited to the criticism section. DMH223344 (talk) 13:35, 2 May 2024 (UTC)
- Especially because before it went out of date, early Zionists explicitly referred to their ideology as colonial The Great Mule of Eupatoria (talk) 14:47, 17 May 2024 (UTC)
- I also agree settler colonialism shouldn't be limited to the criticism section. But remember that "colonial" is not the same thing as "settler colonial"; Zionists referred to themselves as colonial, not settler colonial. Levivich (talk) 14:51, 17 May 2024 (UTC)
- They did refer to themselves as settlers though. DMH223344 (talk) 16:02, 17 May 2024 (UTC)
- Yes and that's where confusion comes in. They described themselves as settlers and their venture as colonialism, but that is not an admission that Zionism is settler colonialism. Settler colonialism is a specific theory developed by Patrick Wolfe and others, and popularized in his 2006 paper, it's a term of art. People saying "we are settlers and colonists" 100 years before that aren't talking about Patrick Wolfe's theory; today, people who talk about settler colonialism are talking about Wolfe's theory. What I'm saying is we shouldn't confuse the words for the concept.
- In fact, the reality is sort of the reverse: it's not that Zionists thought of themselves as settler-colonialists and Wolfe documented it; it's more the opposite, Wolfe used the term "settler colonialism" to describe Zionism and other similar colonialism (e.g. USA, Europe) and to distinguish it from "regular" or traditional colonialism (the non-settling kind of colonialism). Because settler colonialism is a 21st-century concept, 19th-century uses of the words "settler" and "colonialism," even used together, are not and cannot be a reference to the 21st-century concept.
- BTW, to be clear, that doesn't mean Zionism isn't settler colonialism, it just means that Zionists couldn't have described themselves as settler colonialists because the concept had not been invented yet. Can't use 19th-century writing as an admission of a 21st-century concept. Levivich (talk) 17:16, 17 May 2024 (UTC)
- I see, was not aware of that. Would it then be more technical to simply refer to it as “colonial” in this case? The Great Mule of Eupatoria (talk) 05:29, 18 May 2024 (UTC)
- I think so. There was discussion about this recently on the Israeli-Palestinian conflict page, and consensus to refer to Zionism as both "immigration" and "colonization", and Zionists as both "immigrants" and "settlers", because sources seem to use all that language interchangeably. Levivich (talk) 13:43, 18 May 2024 (UTC)
- Immigrants? What type of immigrant starts a revolution and creates a political regime supported by its own military forces? Dimadick (talk) 15:16, 18 May 2024 (UTC)
- Not quite like that and the British/allied powers helped things along. Selfstudier (talk) 15:18, 18 May 2024 (UTC)
- I think Jews who moved to Palestine/Israel were all "settlers" before 1948 and "immigrants" after 1948, but the sources don't agree with me. Levivich (talk) 15:51, 18 May 2024 (UTC)
- Immigrants? What type of immigrant starts a revolution and creates a political regime supported by its own military forces? Dimadick (talk) 15:16, 18 May 2024 (UTC)
- However, under current terminology settlers who seek to colonize and harbour the intent to displace the local population are settler colonialists, not conventional colonialists, who preeminently seek to extract resources. Iskandar323 (talk) 15:28, 18 May 2024 (UTC)
- I think so. There was discussion about this recently on the Israeli-Palestinian conflict page, and consensus to refer to Zionism as both "immigration" and "colonization", and Zionists as both "immigrants" and "settlers", because sources seem to use all that language interchangeably. Levivich (talk) 13:43, 18 May 2024 (UTC)
- I actually disagree with the dependence on Wolfe's theory of settler colonialism especially considering there are other conceptions of settler colonialism. See Englert:
For instance, in explaining the difference between settler and franchise colonies, Wolfe wrote: ‘In contrast to the kind of colonial formation that Cabral or Fanon confronted, settler colonies were not primarily established to extract surplus value from indigenous labour. Rather, they are premised on displacing indigenes from (or replacing them on) the land.’24 A striking issue with this formulation is that Algeria – the colonial formation confronted by Fanon – was a French settler colony. Similarly, Veracini, in his Settler Colonialism: A Theoretical Overview, writes, ‘while the suppression of indigenous and exogenous alterities characterises both colonial and settler colonial formations, the former can be summarised as domination for the purpose of exploitation, the latter as domination for the purpose of transfer.’
- Which also explains that there are fundamental aspects of settler vs franchise colonialism that can apply, even if we don't take eg Wolfe's theory exactly. DMH223344 (talk) 15:56, 18 May 2024 (UTC)
- The diverging colonial approaches seem pretty well understood in the literature, regardless of the precise terminology used. It seems clear that the concept preceded the term, just as the concept of colonialism in general preceded 20th-century colonial studies. Iskandar323 (talk) 16:02, 18 May 2024 (UTC)
- I see, was not aware of that. Would it then be more technical to simply refer to it as “colonial” in this case? The Great Mule of Eupatoria (talk) 05:29, 18 May 2024 (UTC)
- They did refer to themselves as settlers though. DMH223344 (talk) 16:02, 17 May 2024 (UTC)
- I also agree settler colonialism shouldn't be limited to the criticism section. But remember that "colonial" is not the same thing as "settler colonial"; Zionists referred to themselves as colonial, not settler colonial. Levivich (talk) 14:51, 17 May 2024 (UTC)
- Especially because before it went out of date, early Zionists explicitly referred to their ideology as colonial The Great Mule of Eupatoria (talk) 14:47, 17 May 2024 (UTC)
- Some sources referring to Zionism as settler-colonialism:
- Masalha:
Zionist settler-colonialism is at the heart of the conflict in Palestine; settler-colonialism is a structure not an episode (Wolfe 2006). Zionist settler-colonialism is deeply rooted in European colonialism. Ignoring the existence and rights of indigenous peoples, British colonialists often saw large parts of the earth as terra nullius, ‘nobody’s land’. This (originally Roman legal) expression was used to describe territory which was not subject to the sovereignty of any European state – sovereignty over territory which is terra nullius may be acquired through occupation and/or settler-colonisation.
- Cleveland:
Zionism was a settler colonial movement, very much like the movement of other Europeans who moved to the Americas, parts of Africa as well as Australia and New Zealand.
- Pappe:
Zionism as a settler colonial movement was able to colonize Palestine almost in its entirety regardless of its demographic minority.
- Shlaim:
DMH223344 (talk) 16:15, 18 May 2024 (UTC)The Zionist movement was a settler-colonial movement, which had its roots in late nineteenth-century Europe, as a response to the problem of European antisemitism.
- You are quoting sources famously known for their critical view of Zionism, they do not represent the mainstream view of the movement. HaOfa (talk) 17:19, 18 May 2024 (UTC)
- You can add Al-Haq and 90 Palestinian and international organisations that "sent a joint submission to the Independent International Commission of Inquiry on the Occupied Palestinian Territory examining Zionist settler colonialism and apartheid as the root causes of Israel’s ongoing violations of the inalienable rights of the Palestinian people."
- Not entirely sure what you mean by "mainstream" (or when) but the settler colonial paradigm is clearly a significant view that cannot be blithely dismissed. Selfstudier (talk) 17:28, 18 May 2024 (UTC)
- @Selfstudier, you seem like an experienced editor, and at this point I suppose it should be clear that advocacy organizations are not reliable sources. I also agree with the above: Ilan Pappe, Nur Masalha, and Avi Shlaim are known for their critical analysis, often presenting fringe views, of Zionism and Israel. Pappe himself was a central figure in Hadash, a far-left party in Israel, and multiple reliable sources label him a controversial figure. I see no reason to change the current lead, which accurately portrays the settler-colonialist view as a critical view. I'm really noticing more and more of these fringe views taking center stage in these articles, and honestly, it's starting to be really concerning. ABHammad (talk) 07:14, 19 May 2024 (UTC)
- You are quoting sources famously known for their critical view of Zionism, they do not represent the mainstream view of the movement. HaOfa (talk) 17:19, 18 May 2024 (UTC)
Non Jewish Support
I think this section needs more ideological variety, one example is Ho Chi Minh who frequently communicated with Ben-Gurion as shown here; [1] Another example is Civil rights Icon Bayard Rustin; [2], [3]https://www.jns.org/rustin-sowell-and-renewing-black-jewish-relations/
I am sure there are many others but I have to go, and It would be hard to find several at the current moment. Thank you for your patience.
You should also include Ber Borochov and Meir Vilner in the variants section, for the rare Communist Zionism. Emma Lazarus was also a Zionist.
Two more sources for Kurds and Mandeanism; 70.23.5.67 (talk) 12:43, 13 May 2024 (UTC)
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