Talk:Greensleeves

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Spin

This is amusing, but I'm putting it here. Is this spin really relevant?:

Greensleeves is said by some to refer to the pleasures of alfresco sex and the stains on the sleeves of men who have enjoyed female company whilst thrutching on the grass. cf the female equivalent - Green Mantle. Green the colour of the harlot in medaeival England supposedly worn so as to hide the grass stains. Green also a 'faerie' colour in the likes of the ballad of Tam Lin more here; Thomas Rymer; and pagan Brighid of the Green Mantle.

Many original verses of "Greensleeves" are posted on the Web. Anyone find anything in them to tie to this interpretation? For more a propos avenues to follow try the new External link at the entry. Or a note on separate sleeves worn in the 16th century with a bodice... __Wetman 09:48, 20 Oct 2004 (UTC)

What does greensleeves mean or refer to? is the above correct?? 71.77.207.50 06:46, 16 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

"The name Greensleeves most likely refers to a prostitute or a lover, since in Renaissance England, green sleeves were worn by prostitute women as a sign of their status."

From this site http://yunyun09.wordpress.com/new-greensleeves-new/

The sleeves were removable for quick undressing, so I read. England used green to identify prostitutes, Nero required prostitutes to have blonde hair. In China they painted brothels blue. Russia it was yellow on their ID cards. Red was also a common symbol for prostitution, red-light district and lady in red.

My Lady Greensleeves" as depicted in an 1864 painting by Dante Gabriel Rossetti.

If it is true is another thing. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 198.189.224.92 (talk) 22:17, 4 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Alfredooscarfernandez 22:38, 12 December 2006 (UTC)== Loreena McKennit version... ==[reply]

Akashic records show Sir Francis Bacon as composer of Greensleeves, the tune used as Colombe (vestal) march in temple ceremonies. Published at age 19. The writer of Shakespeares' plays, he has a reputation of being a shadow writer. If it was written by Henry VIII then why did it take almost 40 years after his death to appear?

I have a Loreena McKennit version of the song Greensleeves, and its lyrics are a bit different, with chorus as follows:

"Greensleeves was my delight, "Greensleeves my heart of gold "Greensleeves was my heart of joy "And who but my lady Greensleeves."

and she adds another part:

"Thy petticoat of sendle white "With gold embroidered gorgeously; "Thy petticoat of silk and white "And these I bought gladly. "

I recognise the first verse (with a small change to the third line "For I have loved you so long") and the chorus printed in the encyclopedia, but not the rest. I remember seeing a version of Greensleeves many years ago which contained the verse:

"Thy gown was wrought in grassy green, The sleeves of satin hanging by, Which made thee be a harvest Queen, And yet thou wouldst not love me'

I also remember a snippet of a verse containing the lines:-

"With pearls bedecked so sumptuously, The like no other lasses had, And yet thou wouldst not love me.'

Does anyone else know these ?

There is a recopilation of Greensleeves verses by Lindianne Sarno that includes these. You can find them in the link http://music-garden.net/lecture.html

Alfredooscarfernandez 22:38, 12 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

MP3

Anyone know any mp3 links for this song?Dermo69

If you have an eMail address, I can send you a version by Lorena McKennitt or a live version by Neil Young, I think I also have the instrumental version sans lyrics by TSO. Sherurcij ^{(talk) (Terrorist Wikiproject)} 22:48, 3 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I have over 30 versions of Greensleeves (most of them are guitar or harp versions, sans lyrics) and supoose I could send any of them. It is my first contack with Wikipedia and don't know how to contact you. Perhaps, as the precedent user proposes, by an e-mail account. User alfredooscarfernandez Alfredooscarfernandez 01:36, 25 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]

more about GREENSLEEVES

Greensleeves was also, I think, the soundtrack of the half-hour TV serial film "Lassie", the famous collie dog, in the latest ' 50 and earliest ' 60. Thanks. A. Lahore

What do you mean by the soundtrack? Do you mean it was on the soundtrack, or that it was the theme song? I don't know about a soundtrack, but it is not the theme song. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 129.1.193.190 (talk) 16:37, 26 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Greensleeves: We need a definition for this term.

Surely someone has some *real* idea about what this word is referring too? In any case, this entry without such a definition would appear to be rather incomplete.

For instance (and I have no references for this at all), I have heard the theory that the song refers to a gentleman's poor country mistress who works on her farm feeding the cows, etc, hence her green sleeves (from the grass she gathers for the animals). Surely wrong, but why can't we know what is correct? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 68.147.151.165 (talk) 23:33, 12 March 2007 (UTC).[reply]

More experience with folklore might cure you of that certainty. I'm afraid that there are many, many, many things in folksongs that remain baffling. Goldfritha 00:30, 13 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]

It is said that in England prostitutes were required to wear green. The sleeves were removable for easy undressing. Lady Greensleevs was probally a prostitute but some say she might have been a mistress or concubine.

In other countries prostitutes were also “labeled” with a color, In China the brothels were painted blue. In old Rome prostitutes were required to have bleached blond hair. Red-light district and lady in red is a symbol for prostitution in many countries. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 198.189.224.92 (talk) 22:25, 4 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

The Fillmore and Neil Young

Why did Bill Graham decide to play Greensleeves after every concert at the Fillmore? And furthermore, why did Neil Young do the same, and what connection, if any, is known? 71.132.202.29 (talk) 04:33, 6 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Henry VIII Legend

The legend that Henry VIII wrote this tune is frequently repeated but there's absolutely no evidence that it is true, and there's some evidence that the song is not old enough to have been written by Henry. We should not repeat the legend without noting this. Greg 20:50, 18 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I agree, but just saying it's unproven is a bit unsatisfactory: what evidence is there for an early date? And is there any evidence for the claim that he did write it? Or any idea where the legend originated? I'm sure I recall hearing that Henry claimed to have written it. Anyone happen to know if he really said that or if anyone really said that of him? Could be my imagination. garik 16:17, 13 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

The article currently states 'Henry did not write "Greensleeves," which is probably Elizabethan in origin and is based on an Italian style of composition that did not reach England until after his death.' - if the style of composition is later than King Henry VIII, that only shows that he did not compose the tune, it does not show that he did not write the song (lyrics are written, music is composed).

Pure semantics. There is existing evidence of many of Henry VIII's songs and compositions - and Greensleeves, whether as a poem or as music has never been included among them. If what you're proposing is that he wrote the words, and 30 to 40 years later someone put them to music, a copy of his words would have been required for that to have happened. No such evidence of any such poem exists or has ever been mentioned as having existed. You're grasping at straws. David T Tokyo (talk) 16:53, 7 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Distinguishing between composition and writing is not semantics. Moreover the statement 'based on an Italian style of composition that did not reach England until after his death' is very misleading, considering Henry personally had extensive dealings with Italian ambassadors in court who were well known for bringing traveling musicians. I've added "likely did not compose", as flatly saying he did not is foolish considering neither side has any concrete or even particularly solid evidence. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Xerokrist (talk • contribs) 01:17, 28 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

The point you are completely missing is the phrase "until after his death". It's not a question of "traveling musicians" or Henry's "extensive dealings" with Italian ambassadors - it's the simple fact that this style of music simply didn't exist in Henry's lifetime. This particular quote, which you seem to find fault with, has not been scripted by a Wiki Editor, but is a direct quote - word for word - from an existing literary source. If you would like to refute the source, please provide a reliable reference that clearly states that Henry "could" have written Greensleeves. Without that, your edit is highly misleading and as a result I've reverted it.

So that we don't get into an edit war on this, I would ask that you provide the reference that supports the contention that Henry "could" have written Greensleeves here first so that we can make sure it is valid for inclusion. David T Tokyo (talk) 01:56, 28 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

A literary source does not make your case for you. Both sides are entirely subjective, and even your own quote uses the word "Probably". I have provided a perfectly valid explanation as to how King Henry of all people, due to his well known musical skills as well as his dealings with various Italian musicians could have easily composed the song. Furthermore music is innovative, even without Italian influence Henry could have composed it originally. There is no "literary source" needed for you to use common sense, and if you continue in your arrogant way then God help yhour soul. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Xerokrist (talk • contribs) 18:54, 28 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

We have have an academic reference that emphatically states "nor did Henry write Greensleeves". As yet you haven't provided a single source to support what you see as "common sense". However, as you seem to think that the case for Henry writing Greensleeves is so obvious, you should have no problems at all in providing suitable references - I look forward to reading them. David T Tokyo (talk) 20:45, 28 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

@Xerokrist: I agree with David. In the absence of a reliable source that Henry wrote it, we are bound here by verifiability policy to go with that, although we can certainly cite the popular misconception as somewhat apocryphal. To say he "could have" written it is speculation; I could have written many things, but haven't. Whereas "common sense" here sometimes trumps policy, in this case I don't think it does, when academic evidence is available to the contrary. If there is a difference of opinion amongst academics, place feel free to cite it. Until then, "could have" is inadequate for encyclopedic purposes. Rodhull andemu 21:24, 28 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

There is a Wiki page on Francis Cutting, where it confidently states that he was the composer, as does Frederic Noad in his Renaissance Guitar Anthology. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.135.192.248 (talk) 08:14, 21 July 2012 (UTC)[reply]

First, Wikipedia is not a reliable source. Scond, while it is perfectly true that Francis Cutting composed a version (what is calle a "setting") of "Greensleeves", it is certain that he did not actually compose the tune, an anonymous version of which is found in William Ballet's lute book, a source which predates those containing Cutting's very distinctive version. This is already stated in the article, so unless there is some fresh evidence and a newly discovered, earlier source for Cutting's setting, there is no reason to suppose that he actually invented the melody.—Jerome Kohl (talk) 19:10, 21 July 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I have removed the statement 'Henry did not compose Greensleeves'. Even if all the evidence suggests he did not, unless you have hard, indisputable evidence that he DEFINITELY did not, you cannot make that kind of statement. I have retained the source - it is both useful and perfectly acceptable to point out why this is described as a 'legend'. What is not acceptable is drawing your own conclusions and presenting them as fact. Smurfmeister (talk) 10:44, 24 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I revived it, but reworded to emphasize that it's a scholarly belief/analysis rather than a directly known fact. Why did you unlink Elizabethan? The logic goes "not Henry VIII because in a style that came after he existed", so it seems important for readers to know what that style is to be able to understand the style difference and even know that this style was chronologically later. DMacks (talk) 14:06, 24 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I didn't unlink it, I just removed the spurious claim. Smurfmeister (talk) 14:09, 24 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I see you fixed the unlinking:) DMacks (talk) 14:11, 24 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I've reverted the text back to what it was. The argument that it can't be *proved for sure* that Henry didn't write Greensleeves it a spurious one - just as it can't be *proved for sure* that little green men didn't land on the planet a billion years ago with handbags full of DNA. A case is built on all the evidence and in this instance all the evidence is that Henry did not and indeed could not have written Greensleeves. The problem with the current text is that it by restricting it to "scholarly analysis / belief" it opens up the possibility that the scholars may be wrong and that Henry might actually have still written it. That is fundamentally wrong - the scholars have no doubt that Henry did not write it, where they are less likely to agree is when exactly it was written, what its origins were etc. David T Tokyo (talk) 07:05, 27 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]

The fundamental difference is that 'Greensleeves' undeniably exists and that there is a commonly repeated, if spurious, legend around its composition. Your 'little green men' example is not a suitable comparison - what you are talking about here is an entirely invented event. If 'Greensleeves' ITSELF was a legend you might have a point. To use your aliens analogy, a more suitable comparison would be with the Area 51 page. It is far less likely that there was an alien invasion covered up here, but nowhere on the page does it emphatically state 'this definitely did not happen'. Smurfmeister (talk) 17:42, 29 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]