Wikipedia:Deletion review
Deletion discussions |
---|
|
Articles |
Templates and modules |
Files |
Categories |
Redirects |
Miscellany |
Speedy deletion |
Proposed deletion |
Deletion review (DRV) is a forum designed primarily to appeal disputed speedy deletions and disputed decisions made as a result of deletion discussions; this includes appeals to delete pages kept after a prior discussion.
If you are considering a request for a deletion review, please read the "Purpose" section below to make sure that is what you wish to do. Then, follow the instructions below.
Purpose
Deletion review may be used:
- if someone believes the closer of a deletion discussion interpreted the consensus incorrectly;
- if a speedy deletion was done outside of the criteria or is otherwise disputed;
- if significant new information has come to light since a deletion that would justify recreating the deleted page;
- if a page has been wrongly deleted with no way to tell what exactly was deleted; or
- if there were substantial procedural errors in the deletion discussion or speedy deletion.
Deletion review should not be used:
- because of a disagreement with the deletion discussion's outcome that does not involve the closer's judgment (a page may be renominated after a reasonable timeframe);
- (This point formerly required first consulting the deleting admin if possible. As per this discussion an editor is not required to consult the closer of a deletion discussion (or the deleting admin for a speedy deletion) before starting a deletion review. However doing so is good practice, and can often save time and effort for all concerned. Notifying the closer is required.)
- to point out other pages that have or have not been deleted (as each page is different and stands or falls on its own merits);
- to challenge an article's deletion via the proposed deletion process, or to have the history of a deleted page restored behind a new, improved version of the page, called a history-only undeletion (please go to Wikipedia:Requests for undeletion for these);
- to repeat arguments already made in the deletion discussion;
- to argue technicalities (such as a deletion discussion being closed ten minutes early);
- to request that previously deleted content be used on other pages (please go to Wikipedia:Requests for undeletion for these requests);
- to attack other editors, cast aspersions, or make accusations of bias (such requests may be speedily closed);
- for uncontroversial undeletions, such as undeleting a very old article where substantial new sources have subsequently arisen. Use Wikipedia:Requests for undeletion instead. (If any editor objects to the undeletion, then it is considered controversial and this forum may be used.)
- to ask for permission to write a new version of a page which was deleted, unless it has been protected against creation. In general you don't need anyone's permission to recreate a deleted page, if your new version does not qualify for deletion then it will not be deleted.
Copyright violating, libelous, or otherwise prohibited content will not be restored.
Instructions
Before listing a review request, please:
- Consider attempting to discuss the matter with the closer as this could resolve the matter more quickly. There could have been a mistake, miscommunication, or misunderstanding, and a full review may not be needed. Such discussion also gives the closer the opportunity to clarify the reasoning behind a decision.
- Check that it is not on the list of perennial requests. Repeated requests every time some new, tiny snippet appears on the web have a tendency to be counter-productive. It is almost always best to play the waiting game unless you can decisively overcome the issues identified at deletion.
Steps to list a new deletion review
If your request is completely non-controversial (e.g., restoring an article deleted with a PROD, restoring an image deleted for lack of adequate licensing information, asking that the history be emailed to you, etc), please use Wikipedia:Requests for undeletion instead. |
1. |
{{subst:drv2 |page=File:Foo.png |xfd_page=Wikipedia:Files for deletion/2009 February 19#Foo.png |article=Foo |reason= }} ~~~~ |
2. |
Inform the editor who closed the deletion discussion by adding the following on their user talk page:
|
3. |
For nominations to overturn and delete a page previously kept, attach |
4. |
Leave notice of the deletion review outside of and above the original deletion discussion:
|
Commenting in a deletion review
Any editor may express their opinion about an article or file being considered for deletion review. In the deletion review discussion, please type one of the following opinions preceded by an asterisk (*) and surrounded by three apostrophes (''') on either side. If you have additional thoughts to share, you may type this after the opinion. Place four tildes (~~~~) at the end of your entry, which should be placed below the entries of any previous editors:
- Endorse the original closing decision; or
- Relist on the relevant deletion forum (usually Articles for deletion); or
- List, if the page was speedy deleted outside of the established criteria and you believe it needs a full discussion at the appropriate forum to decide if it should be deleted; or
- Overturn the original decision and optionally an (action) per the Guide to deletion. For a keep decision, the default action associated with overturning is delete and vice versa. If an editor desires some action other than the default, they should make this clear; or
- Allow recreation of the page if new information is presented and deemed sufficient to permit recreation.
Examples of opinions for an article that had been deleted:
- *'''Endorse''' The original closing decision looks like it was sound, no reason shown here to overturn it. ~~~~
- *'''Relist''' A new discussion at AfD should bring a more thorough discussion, given the new information shown here. ~~~~
- *'''Allow recreation''' The new information provided looks like it justifies recreation of the article from scratch if there is anyone willing to do the work. ~~~~
- *'''List''' Article was speedied without discussion, criteria given did not match the problem, full discussion at AfD looks warranted. ~~~~
- *'''Overturn and merge''' The article is a content fork, should have been merged into existing article on this topic rather than deleted. ~~~~
- *'''Overturn and userfy''' Needs more development in userspace before being published again, but the subject meets our notability criteria. ~~~~
- *'''Overturn''' Original deletion decision was not consistent with current policies. ~~~~
Remember that deletion review is not an opportunity to (re-)express your opinion on the content in question. It is an opportunity to correct errors in process (in the absence of significant new information), and thus the action specified should be the editor's feeling of the correct interpretation of the debate. Deletion review is facilitated by succinct discussions of policies and guidelines; long or repeated arguments are not generally helpful. Rather, editors should set out the key policies and guidelines supporting their preferred outcome.
The presentation of new information about the content should be prefaced by Relist, rather than Overturn and (action). This information can then be more fully evaluated in its proper deletion discussion forum. Allow recreation is an alternative in such cases.
Temporary undeletion
Admins participating in deletion reviews are routinely requested to restore deleted pages under review and replace the content with the {{TempUndelete}}
template, leaving the history for review by everyone. However, copyright violations and violations of the policy on biographies of living persons should not be restored.
Closing reviews
A nominated page should remain on deletion review for at least seven days, unless the nomination was a proposed deletion. After seven days, an administrator will determine whether a consensus exists. If that consensus is to undelete, the admin should follow the instructions at Wikipedia:Deletion review/Administrator instructions. If the consensus was to relist, the page should be relisted at the appropriate forum. If the consensus was that the deletion was endorsed, the discussion should be closed with the consensus documented.
If the administrator closes the deletion review as no consensus, the outcome should generally be the same as if the decision was endorsed. However:
- If the decision under appeal was a speedy deletion, the page(s) in question should be restored, as it indicates the deletion was not uncontroversial. The closer, or any editor, may then proceed to nominate the page at the appropriate deletion discussion forum, if they so choose.
- If the decision under appeal was an XfD close, the closer may, at their discretion, relist the page(s) at the relevant XfD.
Ideally all closes should be made by an administrator to ensure that what is effectively the final appeal is applied consistently and fairly but in cases where the outcome is patently obvious or where a discussion has not been closed in good time it is permissible for a non-admin (ideally a DRV regular) to close discussions. Non-consensus closes should be avoided by non-admins unless they are absolutely unavoidable and the closer is sufficiently experienced at DRV to make that call. (Hint: if you are not sure that you have enough DRV experience then you don't.)
Speedy closes
- Objections to a proposed deletion can be processed immediately as though they were a request at Wikipedia:Requests for undeletion
- Where the closer of a deletion discussion realizes their close was wrong, and nobody has endorsed, the closer may speedily close as overturn. They should fully reverse their close, restoring any deleted pages if appropriate.
- Where the nominator of a DRV wishes to withdraw their nomination, and nobody else has recommended any outcome other than endorse, the nominator may speedily close as "endorse" (or ask someone else to do so on their behalf).
- Certain discussions may be closed without result if there is no prospect of success (e.g. disruptive or sockpuppet nominations, if the nominator is repeatedly nominating the same page, or the page is listed at WP:DEEPER). These will usually be marked as "administrative close".
The only non-vote opinion comes from the nominator, and that does not address all the sources brought up by @Fram in the prior deletion discussion. The article is about a TV/magazine personality, and so many sources are naturally of that nature. But that does not change the fact that those are reliable, secondary and independent. Just to add one, here is another media coverage about him, clearly demonstrating the notability. TheJoyfulTentmaker (talk) 04:52, 14 September 2024 (UTC)
- WP:DRV is just about this AFD closure, not the first AFD closure, and nobody in this discussion was arguing for this article to be Kept. I'm sure there were opinions about this article that might not have been expressed during the AFD period. But the closer's obligation is to determine the consensus of the editors who chose to participate in the discussion and given the comments, I don't see how you can argue for a different closure outcome. Liz Read! Talk! 05:40, 14 September 2024 (UTC)
- @Liz Thank you for responding. I have missed this discussion, I would have participated had I seen it when it was open. I was wondering if it would be possible restore the article, or to re-list the nomination? I believe the second deletion nomination statement was not done properly, since it addressed just a small subset of the sources brought up in the prior discussion, and the two delete votes did not elaborate on any of the sources that were brought up there. Thanks in advance. TheJoyfulTentmaker (talk) 06:14, 14 September 2024 (UTC)
- Endorse unanimous result. The additional Youtube source presented here by the appellant is just a five minute interview with the subject, and provides nothing in terms of notability. The AfD would have closed the same way had the appellant participated in it. Owen× ☎ 09:09, 14 September 2024 (UTC)
- That 5 minute NBC segment is more than just an interview, it's an mini documentary about the person. But my main point was that Fram's excellent outline in the previous discussion, which includes 3 separate issues from Milliyet's printed archive (which they selected among 179 search hits in the newspaper's archive), and non-interview articles by 2 separate Turkish columnists was not refuted. The nominator only addressed the weaker ones among the sources presented. TheJoyfulTentmaker (talk) 15:27, 14 September 2024 (UTC)
Incorrect interpretation of consensus Hentheden (talk) 20:09, 13 September 2024 (UTC)
- Overturn In the closing decision, the admin OwenX suggested that there was a "rough P&G consensus to delete". The discussion reflects rather a lack of consensus, the result of which should have been to keep per WP:NOCON. More recently, the organisation has received further coverage in government sources, being discussed as an authoritative source in a Bank of England policy document. Hentheden (talk) 20:22, 13 September 2024 (UTC)
- Endorse (involved): The keep !votes were not based on policies or guidelines. There was no identification of WP:SIRS, which is required by NCORP, and many of the keep !votes amounted to WP:IKNOWIT and that its notability should be inherited from its members and the fact that prominent organizations use their research. Several keep !votes were bare "meets GNG" and did not engage with Oaktree b's source analysis. voorts (talk/contributions) 19:59, 14 September 2024 (UTC)
- Koi Mil Gaya 3 (talk|edit|history|logs|links|watch) (XfD|restore)
- Koi... Mil Gaya 3 (talk|edit|history|logs|links|watch) (XfD|restore)
These rds were deleted per Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion/Log/2024 August 24#Koi Mil Gaya 3, the result was mostly due to non-participation by anyone else beyond the nominator and the non-partipicipation also resulted due to the fact that three very similar rds were incorrectly split into separate noms. The actual discussions took place at the other two: Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion/Log/2024 August 31#Krish 1 and Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion/Log/2024 August 31#Koi Mil Gaya 2 both of which consider the same film series and both of which passed (these discussions also revolved around around our current DRVs Koi... Mil Gaya 3 and Koi Mil Gaya 3), I would have commented at Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion/Log/2024 August 24#Koi Mil Gaya 3 and linked to the latter discussions but was unaware of the separate listing for the third film in the series. To only delete redirects for this film from the series would appear unfair in light of these discussions. Please read the discussions and see if these rds should be restored. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Gotitbro (talk • contribs) 15:40, 11 September 2024 (UTC)
- Endorse at this time, pending a clearer explanation from the appellant as to what they are asking. These two appeals were confusing before an admin consolidated them, but are still confusing, and I am not sure whether the appellant is even saying that there was an error. Robert McClenon (talk) 20:27, 11 September 2024 (UTC)
- I have tried to clarify the nomination. Let me further elaborate, there is a Krrish (film series) which includes three films Koi... Mil Gaya, Krrish and Krrish 3. I had created redirects for alternative names of these: Koi... Mil Gaya 1, Koi... Mil Gaya 2 and Koi... Mil Gaya 3 (also Koi Mil Gaya 3 and the like for punctuation); Krrish 1, Krrish 2 and Krrish 3. All of these were nominated for deletion with the incorrect statement that these aren't used elsewhere or would not be expected by readers both of which were proven to be untrue in the discussions at Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion/Log/2024 August 31#Krish 1 and Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion/Log/2024 August 31#Koi Mil Gaya 2. Koi... Mil Gaya 3 (also Koi Mil Gaya 3) were unfortunately deleted before the discussion for the rest concluded, as it was a separate listing (Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion/Log/2024 August 24#Koi Mil Gaya 3) which wasn't relisted and did not involve any participation. I am asking for these two to be restored in light of the fuller discussions that took place later. Gotitbro (talk) 03:28, 12 September 2024 (UTC)
- @Gotitbro: You were notified on your talk page about the Koi Mil Gaya 3 nomination. You were also actively participating in the August 31 RfD page for the Krrish entries until two days after the Koi Mil Gaya 3 nomination. Why do you say you were unaware of the listings?
- Why do you say that the nominations were incorrectly split? It is up to the nom to split the entries as per his rationale. Sometimes others do bundle them if they observe duplication, and see benefit in a bundled nomination. No one did so in this case, as I would believe the nominations were split evenly as 1, 2 and 3 ending titles.
- From what I see, the closer chose to delete Koi Mil Gaya 3, but relisted Koi Mil Gaya 2, even though both had zero participation, because of page histories of other (Krrish) entries of the bulk nomination. All entries of that bulk nomination ended as kept based on strength of the Krrish entries. For Koi Mil Gaya 2, there was one vote in favour and one against (by the nom), but I would believe the closer went with keep as an ATD because of less participation.
- The deletion was fine as a standard no-opposition close. The closer Explicit used to treat such closes as soft deletes that are open to reversal, so it should be straightforward to undelete and relist if that is the opinion. Jay 💬 08:30, 13 September 2024 (UTC)
- I had made a collated comment at Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion/Log/2024 August 31#Krish 1 for all of those discussions. You are right I was notified of one of the listings (Koi Mil Gaya 3). By being unaware I meant that I did not know it was being treated separately and would not be relisted (similar to the 2nd and 1st films) despite my comment at the Krish 1 entry, saying that I am making a reply for all of these listings. I now realize that it is up to the closer to decide to relist and separate listings are treated separately and it was my mistake in not making a comment at the other two entries linking my comment and rationale from Krish 1. Gotitbro (talk) 15:22, 13 September 2024 (UTC)
- It is fair to assume that when Explicit deleted the third and relisted the second, he may not even have been aware of the first set of entries, or the collated discussion, as it was already relisted 3 hours prior by another relister CycloneYoris. Nor did the nomination statements of 2 and 3 have a backlink to 1. Jay 💬 16:35, 13 September 2024 (UTC)
- I had made a collated comment at Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion/Log/2024 August 31#Krish 1 for all of those discussions. You are right I was notified of one of the listings (Koi Mil Gaya 3). By being unaware I meant that I did not know it was being treated separately and would not be relisted (similar to the 2nd and 1st films) despite my comment at the Krish 1 entry, saying that I am making a reply for all of these listings. I now realize that it is up to the closer to decide to relist and separate listings are treated separately and it was my mistake in not making a comment at the other two entries linking my comment and rationale from Krish 1. Gotitbro (talk) 15:22, 13 September 2024 (UTC)
In a close that I cannot fathom, Ritchie333 closed this as "merge". Half (6) argued for a keep, 2 argued for a merge, a minority (4) argued for deletion. Ritchie says that the deletion refuted the keeps, therefore merge has consensus, but I fail to see refutations. People disagreed, some considering the existing sources sufficient, others not. Even if you don't 'count' votes, I can't see how this is anything but a standard no consensus close. Headbomb {t · c · p · b} — Preceding undated comment added 22:32, 10 September 2024 (UTC)
- Endorse. The Delete and the Merge !votes there carry far more P&G weight than the various flavours of Keep. There was no specific consensus to Merge, but I agree with how the closer phrased it:
the "merge" option suggested by some seemed to be the option that I felt most people who expressed a view could live with
. Sometimes it's better to pick the outcome that the fewest would find objectionable than to just throw your hands in the air and do nothing with a "No consensus" close. I'm glad we have admins like Ritchie333 who have the resourcefulness and BOLDness to put aside the nose-counting, and find a solution that best reflects the preferences of participants, as supported by P&G. Owen× ☎ 23:11, 10 September 2024 (UTC) - Overturn to no consensus, since there wasn't one.—S Marshall T/C 11:18, 11 September 2024 (UTC)
- Overturn to no consensus. I see an even split between keep and delete/ATD votes, both in number and strength. The keep side provided several sources of content which I do not believe were fully disputed by the delete/ATD side. The closing statement reads to me as a forced-compromise WP:SUPERVOTE. A second relist would be an okay option as well, but I do not see consensus forming with further discussion. Frank Anchor 14:17, 11 September 2024 (UTC)
- I can see your point about a forced compromise, but see no evidence of a supervote. Everything suggests that Ritchie was genuinely trying to find a way to close the AfD in the least contentious manner, without injecting his own views on the article or its sourcing. A forced compromise isn't necessarily a bad thing; we often use those when resolving editorial disputes. Owen× ☎ 17:37, 11 September 2024 (UTC)
- Forced compromise is listed as a a type of supervote.
A discussion has drawn to a close, with or without a clear outcome. It is supervoting to close in favor of an undiscussed or unfavored compromise idea, which may satisfy no one. If a discussion did not come to a consensus
. Obviously merge was not "undiscussed," but in my opinion there was no consensus and a merge close was chosen as the “middle-ground” Frank Anchor 21:54, 11 September 2024 (UTC)- Yes, it was indeed chosen as a middle-ground. But it was specifically chosen as a favoured idea to satisfy the most participants, which is not what the WP:SPV essay is talking about. If AfD used some kind of runoff voting system, Merge would be the outcome here, supported by more participants than a No consensus. Owen× ☎ 22:31, 11 September 2024 (UTC)
- Forced compromise is listed as a a type of supervote.
- To be clear, "no consensus" was my second (and only other) choice. However, I felt the "merge" comments, particularly the closing one from HighKing, were strong and persuasive. The nominator, IgelRM, also suggested a merge. I'd also add that a NC close implies no prejudice against renomination (which may end up as "delete" - at least one editor observed the criteria for WP:CORP had been tightened up), whereas a merge can be expanded out at a later date if more sources are written. Ritchie333 (talk) (cont) 16:38, 11 September 2024 (UTC)
- Endorse Merge was not only an acceptable option, it was specifically discussed as being okay in the discussion itself. No consensus is not a catch all for when there are issues with sourcing that haven't been rebutted, especially when NCORP is involved. SportingFlyer T·C 20:02, 11 September 2024 (UTC)
- The keeps specifically addressed NCORP. So did the deletes. None came to agreement with regards to whether or not sourcing met NCORP, with many feeling it did not apply because the point of NCORP was to prevent spammy ad-like creations, which this specifically was not. There is no consensus for a merge. Headbomb {t · c · p · b} 22:20, 11 September 2024 (UTC)
- Endorse (involved as I supported Merge at the AfD). By the numbers this is "No Consensus". I count 4 Delete, 2 Merge, and 5 Keeps. However, two of the Keeps do not cite sources and just gush about how great and notable their mods are. These comments should be given less weight because nobility is not inherited; makers of notable things are not automatically notable. Two of the Keeps list sources but don't explain why they meet WP:NCORP; they are good comments but not great. All four Delete comments contain at least some source analysis explaining that most of the sources in the article or linked in the AfD as really about Enderal (or occasionally another mod) and provide only passing coverage of the studio. Thus strength of argument seemingly favors Delete. But given that two comments argued for a Merge and that Delete is not a slam dunk (there are easily enough sources to meet WP:V and enough to meet WP:NCORP can be subjective) a merge is an excellent option as an ATD. It isn't an obvious consensus since it was only a minority "vote", but it is a compromise that addresses both sides primary concerns. I.e. The sources are not really sufficient for the current reading of NCORP, but this is an important in it's niche company that shouldn't be a red-link. In particular I believe that AfD's with this configuration of arguments (i.e. Delete stronger than Keep but not a clear consensus with a clear suggestion of a Merge target with no articulated objection) should be closed as Merge even if I myself happened to favor keeping or deleting the article for whatever reason. Eluchil404 (talk) 21:19, 11 September 2024 (UTC)
- Endorse. I agree with the reading of the discussion as “merge”. If the merge doesn’t happen, it falls back to “no consensus” leaning “redirect”, not leaning “keep”. —SmokeyJoe (talk) 22:56, 11 September 2024 (UTC)
- Endorse per above.
- Hurricane Clyde 🌀my talk page! 03:27, 13 September 2024 (UTC)
This article was deleted without any strong reason. The article was well written and well sourced with no inaccuracies reported yet. The reason was said to be unnotability but it's clear that Lists that fulfill recognized informational, navigation, or development purposes often are kept regardless of any demonstrated notability. It was also said to be original research. While various references were provided and those facts are present in other Wikipedia articles too. It was said that lower communities is ambiguous but It includes last two (Vaishyas and shudras.) It seems to be deleted without any substantial reason. Mohit Dokania (talk) 11:13, 10 September 2024 (UTC)
- Endorse. The list was deleted for very valid reasons, well expressed by Fram and Jeraxmoira at the AfD. The appellant has not demonstrated why this seemingly arbitrary list selection criterion meets WP:LISTCRIT, which states,
Avoid original or arbitrary criteria that would synthesize a list that is not plainly verifiable in reliable sources.
. I would have been just as happy with a Redirect to Sanskrit literature, but the consensus to delete was clear. Owen× ☎ 13:30, 10 September 2024 (UTC)- The sources cited are reliable. They contain easily accessable links to printed books by reputed authors and publishers. If any particular entry is disputed It can be challenged in talk page by citing other sources but deleting a list which have reliable citations shouldn't be the way to go. Mohit Dokania (talk) 08:18, 11 September 2024 (UTC)
- Endorse: the original closing decision. The list of authors are not discussed together in reliable sources and DRV is not an extension of AfD. Jeraxmoira🐉 (talk) 06:55, 11 September 2024 (UTC)(Involved in the AfD)
- The proposed list of Sanskrit authors from lower communities is significant as it challenges the notion that only high-caste individuals contributed to Sanskrit literature. By highlighting these authors, the list reveals the rich diversity within the tradition and underscores the meaningful contributions of marginalized voices. Their works reflect unique perspectives on social justice and identity, enriching our understanding of Sanskrit heritage and promoting a more equitable narrative that honors the contributions of all communities. Mohit Dokania (talk) 08:26, 11 September 2024 (UTC)
- This sounds like a case of WP:RIGHTGREATWRONGS. Mohit Dokania, I respect your attempt to dispel the misconception about the paucity of lower caste Sanskrit authors, but Wikipedia isn't the place to do this. For a list to meet our inclusion standards, it's not enough that individual items in it are covered by reliable sources. The grouping of those items into a distinct list must be supported by the sources. Owen× ☎ 09:52, 11 September 2024 (UTC)
- The proposed list of Sanskrit authors from lower communities is significant as it challenges the notion that only high-caste individuals contributed to Sanskrit literature. By highlighting these authors, the list reveals the rich diversity within the tradition and underscores the meaningful contributions of marginalized voices. Their works reflect unique perspectives on social justice and identity, enriching our understanding of Sanskrit heritage and promoting a more equitable narrative that honors the contributions of all communities. Mohit Dokania (talk) 08:26, 11 September 2024 (UTC)
- I think the basic problem is "lower communities" in the title. What we actually need is to review any scholarly papers about this topic and see what the academics say about the relationship between written Sanskrit, caste, and socioeconomic class.—S Marshall T/C 11:24, 11 September 2024 (UTC)
- Please don't confuse lower social hierarchy with individual inferiority. It's like hierarchy in a company where a CEO could be a horrible person even when high in hierarchy and a sweeper could be a brilliant person even when lower in hierarchy. It's clearly listed in varna hierarchy. It's discussed at many places see It's discussed in this research paper and many others. Mohit Dokania (talk) 12:13, 11 September 2024 (UTC)
- Yes, thank you, I do understand the distinction between a person's class and their worth. Here in Britain, some hereditary aristocrats are ghastly human beings and some third-generation council house tenants are lovely; and I'm sure that's the same everywhere else in the world too. I don't think there's any confusion there. What is confusing is that Wikipedia's category system thinks there are 411 castes, with 39 subcategories. Please could you say which of these you meant by "lower communities"? You don't seem to mean Scheduled Castes and Scheduled Tribes.—S Marshall T/C 13:58, 11 September 2024 (UTC)
- That's modern artificial categorisation for vote bank politics. I am talking about traditional classification of jāti and it's not exactly same as caste. Mohit Dokania (talk) 09:10, 13 September 2024 (UTC)
- Aha! Thanks, that's helpful. Is our Wikipedia article on jāti accurate?—S Marshall T/C 11:48, 13 September 2024 (UTC)
- not very well written but good for basic idea. It should have more mentions from first hand Sanskrit sources, that is our shastras Mohit Dokania (talk) 12:53, 14 September 2024 (UTC)
- So this list was taking the Shudras as a jāti rather than as a varna. You meant people like Matsyendranatha and Narayana Guru?—S Marshall T/C 18:56, 14 September 2024 (UTC)
- not very well written but good for basic idea. It should have more mentions from first hand Sanskrit sources, that is our shastras Mohit Dokania (talk) 12:53, 14 September 2024 (UTC)
- Aha! Thanks, that's helpful. Is our Wikipedia article on jāti accurate?—S Marshall T/C 11:48, 13 September 2024 (UTC)
- That's modern artificial categorisation for vote bank politics. I am talking about traditional classification of jāti and it's not exactly same as caste. Mohit Dokania (talk) 09:10, 13 September 2024 (UTC)
- Yes, thank you, I do understand the distinction between a person's class and their worth. Here in Britain, some hereditary aristocrats are ghastly human beings and some third-generation council house tenants are lovely; and I'm sure that's the same everywhere else in the world too. I don't think there's any confusion there. What is confusing is that Wikipedia's category system thinks there are 411 castes, with 39 subcategories. Please could you say which of these you meant by "lower communities"? You don't seem to mean Scheduled Castes and Scheduled Tribes.—S Marshall T/C 13:58, 11 September 2024 (UTC)
- Technically, the
relationship between written Sanskrit, caste, and socioeconomic class
is discussed in Sanskritisation (but it isn't about the creation of new literature). —Alalch E. 11:57, 13 September 2024 (UTC)- This is more of a western perspective on the phenomenon . In our words, propoganda. The tribal and regional cultures have all sprouted from the same hinduism. Distorting, reaffirming shastric traditions or discarding it are all possibilities. Mohit Dokania (talk) 12:59, 14 September 2024 (UTC)
- Please don't confuse lower social hierarchy with individual inferiority. It's like hierarchy in a company where a CEO could be a horrible person even when high in hierarchy and a sweeper could be a brilliant person even when lower in hierarchy. It's clearly listed in varna hierarchy. It's discussed at many places see It's discussed in this research paper and many others. Mohit Dokania (talk) 12:13, 11 September 2024 (UTC)
- Endorse - DRV is not AFD round 2. The appellant says:
This article was deleted without any strong reason.
No, the consensus of the AFD was the reason. The appellant is disagreeing with the reasoning of the the AFD nominator and the AFD participants, but that is not what DRV is for. Robert McClenon (talk) 16:25, 11 September 2024 (UTC) - Endorse. The strong reason to delete was editors agreeing that the page did not meet stand-alone list eligibility criteria, including the concern that the list was assembled through the forbidden combining of material from multiple sources to state or imply a conclusion not explicitly stated by any of the sources.—Alalch E. 20:44, 12 September 2024 (UTC)
- Individual items needn't be found together in a single source. However, It's discussed together [here. https://satyan-sharma.medium.com/lest-we-forget-sanskritists-situated-at-the-bottom-of-caste-hierarchy-ac2c29159da9?source=social.tw] Mohit Dokania (talk) 09:14, 13 September 2024 (UTC)
- Medium is near-forbidden on Wikipedia, as a deprecated source (see WP:MEDIUM), but the author appears to be a subject-matter expert and is discussing a topic within his expertise. Still, there is no editorial oversight. This is at the very bottom of what we could treat as a reliable secondary source. Multiple reliable sources would be needed, and maybe in a group of such sources could this Medium post contribute to a determination that the list topic is notable. —Alalch E. 11:25, 13 September 2024 (UTC)
- Individual items needn't be found together in a single source. However, It's discussed together [here. https://satyan-sharma.medium.com/lest-we-forget-sanskritists-situated-at-the-bottom-of-caste-hierarchy-ac2c29159da9?source=social.tw] Mohit Dokania (talk) 09:14, 13 September 2024 (UTC)
Given the recent news that Elon Musk could become the first trillionaire by 2027, I think that we should allow for the "Trillionaire" article (the deleted one, not the current disambiguation page) to be restored as a draft at Draft:Trillionaire as it would now look promising. GTrang (talk) 02:42, 10 September 2024 (UTC)
- Closer's comment: The AfD was closed as "delete" because the article read like a dictionary entry. Musk becoming a trillionaire would not change that. But all are free to recreate the article once the concept of "trillionaire" is covered by reliable sources in sufficient depth for us to write an article about it that goes beyond a dictionary definition. It is not apparent from this review request, which cites no sources, that this is now the case. Sandstein 06:47, 10 September 2024 (UTC)
- Keep deleted. There is nothing to suggest that there is anything to write at this title which will be more than a dicdef. Stifle (talk) 08:17, 10 September 2024 (UTC)
- The appellant doesn't need our permission to submit a new draft to AfC, but someone possibly becoming a trillionaire in three years is hardly a reason to create an encyclopedic entry. The original close was fine. Owen× ☎ 13:16, 10 September 2024 (UTC)
- No action. If Mr. Musk (or another person) eventually becomes widely known as becoming the first trillionaire, then we can have a discussion to add a link to his page into the DAB at that time. There is certainly nothing to do now. Frank Anchor 14:19, 11 September 2024 (UTC)
- Endorse or do nothing, as per above comments. Robert McClenon (talk) 16:02, 11 September 2024 (UTC)
- No action (keep deleted). There is a noticeable absence of evidence that there is something to write about. I don't think that the page should be undeleted. The content was stated to be non-compliant with policy. When there is something to write about as may be evidenced in the sources, please write something that is policy compliant (which will have became doable by then). The close of the AfD has not been challenged and it speaks for itself so it doesn't seem like endorsing it has real meaning.—Alalch E. 20:30, 12 September 2024 (UTC)
- Relist – I think maybe on this one we should go back through AfD on this.
- Hurricane Clyde 🌀my talk page! 03:29, 13 September 2024 (UTC)
- Why? Stifle (talk) 08:53, 13 September 2024 (UTC)
- Hurricane Clyde, do you think there was much doubt in the participants' arguments that would warrant a relist years later? The outcome looks pretty clear to me. Plus, why are you adding additional indents to your comment? Liz Read! Talk! 05:55, 14 September 2024 (UTC)
- Maybe wait a year or two on the relist; but my rationale is the fact that sources are apparently saying that Elon Musk could become a trillionaire by 2027; which my my calculations is only about three years from now. As for the indent, it was just a mistake and it has been fixed now. Hurricane Clyde 🌀my talk page! 16:04, 14 September 2024 (UTC)
- By waiting a year or two (or three) on the relist, do you mean having a new Articles for Deletion discussion in 1/2/3 years? If you would like more discussing to happen in AfD, that can't happen in the discussion that this deletion review links to, because that discussion concluded with a consensus to do something, and relisting isn't for that. A new AfD is possible if there is an article and someone nominates it for deletion. So 1/2/3 years in the future (or sooner) someone could create an article about this topic again and it could be nominated for deletion. That's something that can simply happen all on its own, and Deletion review doesn't have a say in it. Recreation is possible, as nothing prevents it. When you think that it's a good time to write about this because there are sufficient sources for an encyclopedia article, you can just write the article, and maybe no one will even nominate it for deletion. —Alalch E. 17:53, 14 September 2024 (UTC)
- Maybe wait a year or two on the relist; but my rationale is the fact that sources are apparently saying that Elon Musk could become a trillionaire by 2027; which my my calculations is only about three years from now. As for the indent, it was just a mistake and it has been fixed now. Hurricane Clyde 🌀my talk page! 16:04, 14 September 2024 (UTC)
- Hurricane Clyde, do you think there was much doubt in the participants' arguments that would warrant a relist years later? The outcome looks pretty clear to me. Plus, why are you adding additional indents to your comment? Liz Read! Talk! 05:55, 14 September 2024 (UTC)
- Why? Stifle (talk) 08:53, 13 September 2024 (UTC)
- Hurricane Clyde 🌀my talk page! 03:29, 13 September 2024 (UTC)
| ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
The following is an archived debate of the deletion review of the page above. Please do not modify it. | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
I am invoking WP:DRVPURPOSE#3. This was deleted for failing two guidelines, one that doesn't exist anymore as well as GNG. I have now done an initial search to located 21 press articles that contribute towards GNG. These are now saved to my hard drive, in anticipation of this page being restored to draft space or user space, so I'm able to build a real encyclopedic article from those (and more that are coming later) sources. I have tried contacting the closer, who seems to be absent since July, so here we are. Geschichte (talk) 10:27, 9 September 2024 (UTC)
| ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
The above is an archive of the deletion review of the page listed in the heading. Please do not modify it. |
3 keeps and 3 deletes, including the nom. Deletion !voters did not respond during the entirety of the final relist. I believe this should at least be a no consensus. Aaron Liu (talk) 13:19, 6 September 2024 (UTC)
- I would remind Aaron Liu that one normally discusses a matter like this prior to requesting a DRV. That aside, in this AfD, two "keep" arguments was just based upon what the subject is but made no argument for notability or attempt to put forth sources. Aaron Liu did make an argument that there was substantial source material about this subject, but several subsequent arguments disagreed with that assessment. Seraphimblade Talk to me 13:38, 6 September 2024 (UTC)
- Sorry, as you may see, I'm new to this, and I guess I missed that part oh the instructions. Thanks. Aaron Liu (talk) 14:13, 6 September 2024 (UTC)
- Only 1 subsequent argument disagreed. Oaktree did not address my argument at all and seemed oblivious to the sources bought up. Aaron Liu (talk) 19:48, 6 September 2024 (UTC)
- Endorse. Two of the Keep !votes cite sources that don't provide independent, significant coverage, and the third doesn't even bring up any P&G-based argument. The three Deletes, on the other hand, all raise valid, guideline-based concerns. There is no onus on participants to counter or respond to every opposing view, especially if their !vote already addresses the issues raised. Owen× ☎ 13:52, 6 September 2024 (UTC)
- I don't see how instruction manuals (and phpconference) don't provide independent and significant coverage, assuming you mean me and the IP. I'll concede that the other keep was invalid, and I don't see how Oaktree addressed the argument. Aaron Liu (talk) 14:15, 6 September 2024 (UTC)
- Endorse as a valid close by the closer. No Consensus would also have been valid. DRV is not AFD round 2, and DRV does not mean that each of the DRV participants performs their own close. The closer uses their judgment, not the judgment of each of the DRV participants. So this closer gave more weight to the Delete arguments, and that was a valid close. Robert McClenon (talk) 19:46, 6 September 2024 (UTC)
Endorse. I can see why the keep arguments were not weighted as heavily given that they were not providing reliable sources. I probably would have closed as "No consensus" given the relatively few people arguing for deletion, but I also see this closure as within the closer's discretion. Malinaccier (talk) 20:36, 6 September 2024 (UTC)
- Allow recreation. I still don't have a problem with the original close, but I'm okay with restoring the article given sources that have come to light per WP:DRVPURPOSE#3. If somebody wants to nominate the article for deletion again (as suggested by Cunard), I am okay with this as well. Malinaccier (talk) 17:13, 12 September 2024 (UTC)
Endorseas firmly within closer's discretion. N/C would have also been a viable one, but neither is wrong so no need to change. Star Mississippi 22:37, 6 September 2024 (UTC)- I haven't had a chance to identify the sourcing discussed below, but there seems to be consensus that they meet DRV3. So nothing wrong with the close, but no reason not to move forward with the article now. Star Mississippi 13:34, 13 September 2024 (UTC)
Endorse per above. Allow recreation (straight to mainspace) Unnecessary AfD-round-2 remark: WP:NSOFTWARE (essay) is incompatible with WP:NCORP (guideline) because software is usually a product of an organization, or in the case of open-source software the product whose development is facilitated and coordinated by an organization. In this case, the organization is Contao Association. ... and under NCORP,product instruction manuals
are specifically noted as trivial coverage.—Alalch E. 12:50, 7 September 2024 (UTC)- Wikipedia:Notability (organizations and companies) § Examples of substantial coverage:
An extensive how-to guide written by people wholly independent of the company or product (e.g. For Dummies).
Pearson is independent. That said, I do see how the closer could weigh the arguments and believe that 2 sources is too short now. Aaron Liu (talk) 13:00, 7 September 2024 (UTC)- Okay, it's a whole book. Well that's a little uncomfortable. —Alalch E. 13:23, 7 September 2024 (UTC)
- You should have screamed in the AfD that it's an entire frickin book by an independent publisher and linked to Wikipedia:Notability (organizations and companies)#Examples of substantial coverage. Weak effort by the keeps. Should be refundable
to draftto mainspace.—Alalch E. 13:28, 7 September 2024 (UTC)- Whoops, I'm guessing I should get a checkup for Asperger's now.[Joke] Aaron Liu (talk) 14:55, 7 September 2024 (UTC)
- I was (sort of) joking. You did fine and said the right things. The problem is systemic. AfD is eroding. There is so much seemingly useful guidance and accumulated practice on how to conduct deletion discussions that lead to correct outcomes, but instead of the discussions getting better, they are getting worse. —Alalch E. 12:28, 12 September 2024 (UTC)
- Whoops, I'm guessing I should get a checkup for Asperger's now.[Joke] Aaron Liu (talk) 14:55, 7 September 2024 (UTC)
- I have changed my recommendation. See also the Linux Magazine (German) article (link) and the upload-magazin.de staff (proof) article (link). This is a WP:DRVPURPOSE#3 appeal.—Alalch E. 14:28, 7 September 2024 (UTC)
- @Seraphimblade Since Contao got deleted, shouldn't every CMS on this list get deleted as well since they are most likely corporations and have no notability?
- https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_content_management_systems
- I feel like every Open Source CMS should just get removed then, what do you think, that is a serious question right now, I just clicked through some and found no real references:
- - Wordpress only has mostly just references from domains with "wordpress" in them and some webarchives.
- - Django is mostly empty: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Django_CMS
- - Plone doesn't look like there is many references as well: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plone_(software)
- - Typo3 only has own links: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TYPO3
- If you think it was justified to delete, we should reconsider and most likely delete everything on the list of CMS and other Software because notability is not given for free open source software. DebuggerDuck (talk) 08:21, 12 September 2024 (UTC)
- — DebuggerDuck (talk • contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic.
- Please log in to your main account and read WP:OSE which explains why not all articles are treated the same. Star Mississippi 11:57, 12 September 2024 (UTC)
- They seem pretty new: using extlinks instead of wikilinks and having not read the most popular deletion essay. Aaron Liu (talk) 12:03, 12 September 2024 (UTC)
- A new account doesn't just happen to find DRV unless they're canvassed here. You're not doing that so.... Star Mississippi 13:35, 13 September 2024 (UTC)
- I'd say they were linked from the AfD, which was linked from the deletion log, which is present in deleted pages. Aaron Liu (talk) 14:17, 13 September 2024 (UTC)
- A new account doesn't just happen to find DRV unless they're canvassed here. You're not doing that so.... Star Mississippi 13:35, 13 September 2024 (UTC)
- They seem pretty new: using extlinks instead of wikilinks and having not read the most popular deletion essay. Aaron Liu (talk) 12:03, 12 September 2024 (UTC)
- WordPress does have entire books and secondary web coverage to be found but not added to the article yet. It would survive deletion.The problem with this kind of argument is that if it is true, it usually just results in the other articles being deleted as well. Aaron Liu (talk) 12:02, 12 September 2024 (UTC)
- You should have screamed in the AfD that it's an entire frickin book by an independent publisher and linked to Wikipedia:Notability (organizations and companies)#Examples of substantial coverage. Weak effort by the keeps. Should be refundable
- Okay, it's a whole book. Well that's a little uncomfortable. —Alalch E. 13:23, 7 September 2024 (UTC)
- Wikipedia:Notability (organizations and companies) § Examples of substantial coverage:
- Overturn to no consensus. A poorly attended AFD. That happens. But while everyone was acting in good faith. the bottom line is that no meaningful, policy-based consensus was achieved. Original nom was reasonable, several Keep comments were not policy based, but Deletes failed to engage meaningfully with the remaining Keep !vote's (Aaron Liu's) reasonable attempts at sourcing. So in spite of several relists, we ended up with a well-intentioned but poorly attended and unresolved discussion on sourcing, and noise. No conclusion was reached. Martinp (talk) 13:40, 7 September 2024 (UTC)
- Bring back to mainspace. My head is spinning from the distinctions between different DRV purposes, and between overturning the AFD close vs endorsing-but-allowing-recreation. We make things really complicated sometimes! Bottom line is we deleted an article at AFD and as a community, we got it wrong. One person was supplying decent references but others weren't listening, and the whole discussion was poorly attended. I know nothing about the CMS space, but a bit of digging uncovers the following in addition to sources already discussed here and/or at the AFD:
- Pierre-Edouard Laurent, "Avis Contao : un CMS orienté flexibilité et organisation", Clubic [1]
- Mutiple substantial books listed at [2], which is the Contao website but it seems that the books there (except the "official" one by Leo Feyer) were written independently (see the remark at [3]). In particular, the author of one, Peter Mueller, has written similar books about Wordpress, and about creating websites with HTML and CSS directly, so I'm pretty sure his book on Contao counts as fully independent. Note this is a different independent book than the one by Gerling already discussed in the AFD and DRV (and also on that list).
- Stepping back from the policy alphabet soup, for whatever reason we weren't sure Contao was notable and that there were enough substantial, independent sources to write about it. It turns out that there are. So let's allow those who know something about it to write a decent article about it in mainspace. Martinp (talk) 02:54, 14 September 2024 (UTC)
- Bring back to mainspace. My head is spinning from the distinctions between different DRV purposes, and between overturning the AFD close vs endorsing-but-allowing-recreation. We make things really complicated sometimes! Bottom line is we deleted an article at AFD and as a community, we got it wrong. One person was supplying decent references but others weren't listening, and the whole discussion was poorly attended. I know nothing about the CMS space, but a bit of digging uncovers the following in addition to sources already discussed here and/or at the AFD:
- Endorse clearly the correct outcome despite a moderately attended AfD - the sources presented were clearly rebutted and there's not really a good argument for keeping. I also don't think the sources here are good enough, though linux-magazin isn't accessible to me. The upload-magazin is basically a listicle. SportingFlyer T·C 16:51, 7 September 2024 (UTC)
- I don't see how
the sources presented were clearly rebutted
when the two deletion !voters did not respond to my rebuttals. Here's an archived link for linux-magazin. Aaron Liu (talk) 16:56, 7 September 2024 (UTC) - There are multiple articles in linux-magazin solely about the software. —Alalch E. 17:13, 7 September 2024 (UTC)
- And let's not ignore the book. —Alalch E. 17:14, 7 September 2024 (UTC)
- I don't see how
- Restore and list at a new AfD at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Contao (2nd nomination) or allow recreation under WP:DRVPURPOSE#3 to discuss the new sources that have been raised. New sources such as this article in Linux Magazine (German) found by Alalch E. have been presented in this DRV that were not presented in the AfD. The AfD featured a strong "keep" argument from Aaron Liu (discussing how an entire book from an independent reputable publisher was about Contao) and "delete" arguments that did not adequately engage with Aaron Liu's sources. I recommend a restoration and listing at AfD for a new discussion about these new sources. Cunard (talk) 10:25, 10 September 2024 (UTC)
- @OwenX, @Robert McClenon, @Malinaccier, @Star Mississippi, do you still hold your endorsement in light of there being an entire book by Pearson, which is my fault that I did not express clearly, and Alalch finding an additional source, linux-magazin? Aaron Liu (talk) 11:57, 12 September 2024 (UTC)
- I'll be honest, I had forgotten to follow this discussion, so thanks for the ping. I'll read your discussion with @Alalch E. as soon as I can Star Mississippi 11:58, 12 September 2024 (UTC)
- Allow Recreation in article space with additional sources, subject to AFD. This has become a different DRV than when it was filed. I am not striking my Endorse, because it was a valid close. However, in response to the new (or revised) request to add sources, the appellant should be allowed to write a new article, subject to AFD. Robert McClenon (talk) 05:15, 13 September 2024 (UTC)
- Comment - Since DRV has two groups of purposes, where purposes 1, 2, 4, and 5 roll up, but 3 is something else. it is important for an appellant and the reviewers to keep in mind that we are making two kinds of judgments, sometimes at the same time. Robert McClenon (talk) 05:15, 13 September 2024 (UTC)
- Comment. The discussion above, in which I've participated, seems to have established there various potential sources (significant and likely independent). Some were brought up but too summarily dismissed at the AFD. Some seem to have been present in the deleted article as "Further reading"(?) rather than sources. Others are new, brought up for the first time in this DRV. Process-wise, any interested editor could write a new article, carefully sourced informed by all this discussion, and let it take its chances in a new AFD (where of course the qualify of sourcing could be challenged). However, it seems the deleted version might offer a useful starting point if restored. Can we get the article temp-deleted so nonadmins can see it, and a judgment made here whether it's best to start over (more meticulously) or build on previous? Martinp (talk) 10:25, 14 September 2024 (UTC)
You could argue there wasn't a consensus to delete Robbiegibbons (talk) 23:52, 6 September 2024 (UTC)
- Endorse as closer. Is this an argument for the sake of argument? At one point in the AfD, the appellant supported deletion. Either way, the arguments from Fram, Gonzo fan2007 and Sandstein carried far more P&G weight than the lone Keep from Matilda and the subsequent Per Matilda. Apparently, the appellant believes discussions about articles on Australian topics should be left to Australian editors. Owen× ☎ 00:09, 7 September 2024 (UTC)
- Do whatever you like this might be it for me with wikipedia. Robbiegibbons (talk) 13:16, 8 September 2024 (UTC)
- Endorse, potentially speedily if this is the trolling it appears to be
if I don't like it I suppose I can always ask for a review
. Consensus was clear and there's no guideline for a quorum of a specific type of editor. Star Mississippi 00:16, 7 September 2024 (UTC)- I've seen a few things during this process that makes me think I don't want to contribute to wikipedia any longer. Robbiegibbons (talk) 13:28, 8 September 2024 (UTC)
- I hope that this comment was just clumsily-worded, because the sentiment is unacceptable. No-one's opinion is worth more than another's due to their nationality, race, gender etc. and any even slight suggestion to the contrary should be (in my opinion) refuted strongly. Daniel (talk) 01:42, 7 September 2024 (UTC)
- Endorse, the "keep" argument handwaves at sources but seems to have forgotten to give any hint as to what those might be, and the other keep is a "per" that rather weak argument. I would also agree that the "not enough Australian editors" comment is quite inappropriate; an editor's nationality does not and should not matter one bit. Seraphimblade Talk to me 02:37, 7 September 2024 (UTC)
- Endorse. The WP:NLIST argument was unrefuted. Matilda's pointers on what additional content could be had on the Eureka Rebellion might help expand Eureka Rebellion and they do not address the problem with the deleted list at all.—Alalch E. 12:38, 7 September 2024 (UTC)
- Endorse or Speedy Endorse - The appellant hasn't argued that there wasn't a consensus to delete, and there wasn't an error by the closer. Delete was a valid conclusion by the closer. The appellant is wasting the time of the community (as well as their own time). Robert McClenon (talk) 16:32, 7 September 2024 (UTC)
- I don't care about the Eureka Rebellion series anymore someone else can keep it updated in future.Robbiegibbons (talk) 13:06, 8 September 2024 (UTC)
- 2015 World Youth Championships in Athletics – Boys' javelin throw (talk|edit|history|logs|links|watch) (XfD|restore)
I had forgotten about this article until another editor tried to recreate it last week which brought it back to my attention.
The article was initially PRODed hours after its creation, and the PROD description said, No evidence that individual events at these youth competitions are notable
. I deprodded it adding a few sources, but then the same editor nominated it for AfD (no problem with this process so far).
During the AfD, I significantly improved the article, from looking like this to looking like this with some solid prose, all backed up by reliable sources about the topic. Not all AfD comments were made before these improvements were completed. I do think that if the AfD had begun after my improvements were made, a different result would have been determined.
The AfD was lengthy, but it actually received relatively little participation all things considered, with only two editors recommending to delete. In addition, many new pages in Category:2015 World Youth Championships in Athletics were since created by other editors, making this article the only "missing" one listed in the medal summary (almost all others were created in the last 6 months after the AfD). I think it has since been made clear that making event-specific articles for these sorts of championships is common practice for use of Wikipedia as an encyclopedic reference. Although the competition is "youth", it does receive major coverage due to the international / world championship nature, and many of the competitors have their own articles and are senior Olympic medalists and champions. Ten sources were used and I'm confident that more exist.
Even disregarding the ten sources used, I think there is an argument to keep the article as well if we classify it as a "list" of results because lists can be kept as navigational aides even if they don't meet GNG. Many results articles like this have already been assessed as List-class backing up this argument. The recreated article, although missing the prose I added, does go into more detail w.r.t. the results by adding the records of each throw here, so if we could combine our efforts I think the page would be even more improved.
Thanks, ---Habst (talk) 19:54, 5 September 2024 (UTC)
- Endorse as closer.
with only two editors recommending to delete
- I see four views to delete: Fram as the nom; JoelleJay, who did a thorough source analysis, as she always does; Sandstein; and Geschichte, who didn't enter a bolded !vote, but was very clear about their view to delete. On the Keep side, I only see the appellant, who is also the creator and substantially the only one who edited the article. I don't want to use the term "bludgeoning", but the appellant's extensive responses to each and every Delete view on that AfD failed to sway any of the participants, ending in a clear consensus to delete.
- It's not clear what the basis for this appeal is. It reads like an AfD round 2. But I'm sure the appellant will soon reply, in length, to this, as they will to every other "Endorse" here. Owen× ☎ 20:22, 5 September 2024 (UTC)
- @OwenX, just to clarify on the first sentence, I was counting JoelleJay and Sandstein as the only two deletion recommendations aside from the nominator. User:Geschichte's final point was that "
I don't have a strong opinion about the 2015 World Youth Championships in Athletics – Boys' javelin throw page
", and I don't think their view was to delete at all. If that !vote was considered as a delete, I don't think it should have been. - I was the first creator of the article, but the most recent creator and the impetus to be reminded of this article was User:Stojan212 and not myself. On the last point -- I admit to responding too often to comments on that AfD. I haven't been doing that as often in the last six months, and I'll try to keep my comments brief in the future and let others decide as should be done in a wiki. Thanks. --Habst (talk) 21:40, 5 September 2024 (UTC)
- I didn't count Geschichte for either side, as I mentioned in my reply to you when the AfD closed. But reading it now, it's clear they are leaning towards deletion, which I thought was worth mentioning. Either way, I appreciate you taking a less confrontational approach in debates. Owen× ☎ 22:11, 5 September 2024 (UTC)
- @OwenX, just to clarify on the first sentence, I was counting JoelleJay and Sandstein as the only two deletion recommendations aside from the nominator. User:Geschichte's final point was that "
- Endorse This could have closed as No consensus but, Habst, I don't see that the argument that this article should be Kept had any support except from you even after two relistings. There was no way that a consensus would be to Keep. I think your best option now is to see if this article can be restored to Draft space where you can continue to improve it and submit it to AFC for review. Liz Read! Talk! 02:25, 6 September 2024 (UTC)
- @Liz, thanks. I probably should have been more brief in my original post and just said I think no consensus should have been decided or it should have been relisted a third time, based on only having two delete views versus one keep view (excluding nominator).
- I've asked for userification of the page here. This was my first DRV, so maybe in retrospect I should have just asked for user/drafticiation to begin with. --Habst (talk) 12:27, 6 September 2024 (UTC)
- Endorse - In my opinion, Delete was not only a valid conclusion but the only valid conclusion. This appeal appears to be AFD round 2, not arguing that the closer made an error, but arguing that the community made an error, but that isn't how DRV works. As per Liz, Authorize Restoration of Draft (but improvement will be required at submission for review). Robert McClenon (talk) 05:38, 6 September 2024 (UTC)
- Endorse. Consensus is clear. Stifle (talk) 07:53, 6 September 2024 (UTC)
- Endorse. From time to time, editors creating articles of a certain specific type becomes a comon occurrence and this comes to be seen as a common practice. But deletion of articles on non-notable topics is the actual common practice. AfD is when editors decide if what was created should be retained in the encyclopedia, and here, they formed a rough consensus to delete.—Alalch E. 10:29, 6 September 2024 (UTC)
- Endorse there was clear consensus to delete. I also looked at the deleted page, and it should have been deleted. Note that I believer there is no reason some of this information cannot be included elsewhere on the site, but consensus is that not notable enough for a stand-alone page. SportingFlyer T·C 17:35, 6 September 2024 (UTC)
|
---|
The following is an archived debate of the deletion review of the page above. Please do not modify it. |
TL;DR: I believe the closer has erroneously entirely excluded at least 12 of the 17 delete !votes to arrive at a "keep" consensus where none existed. This AfD was clearly contentious but also trending delete, with a raw, unconsidered count of !votes showing 17 deletes, 2 redirects and 11 keeps (plus a couple of others). We don’t just count !votes, but as redirects are “do somethings” too, it is always a surprise if a near 2:1 majority to do something is closed as “keep”. In seeking to understand how the close statement could suggest there was initially a rough consensus to keep, the closer explained to me that they hade determined the rough consensus after discarding non P&G !votes and found only 5 valid deletes but 11 valid keeps [4] Note that this was taken as “rough consensus” and that further discarding votes that suggested we should “delete unless” was given as a reason to formulate a solid consensus to keep per this in the closing statement:
I note that an early contribution from Hydrangeans cited WP:BESTSOURCES and then presented academic sources that show that the majority of grooming gangs are white, and that this is an invented narrative. It is not the job of DRV to further evaluate the argument made, but it is clear that this !vote was solidly policy based. I then note that AndyTheGrump, myself, Iggy pop goes the weasel and BrocadeRiverPoems all explicitly included “per Hydrangeans” in our !votes. That is five policy based !votes, and not one of us was a “delete unless”, so the numbers don’t add up here. I also think the suggestion that so many !votes could be discarded as non policy is in error. Of the remaining 12 keep votes, 5 of these mention WP:NPOV. That is a policy. 6 then argued that sources do not bear out the framing/that the premise is false/that we are asserting something that does not exist. These are source based arguments that don’t specifically mention Hydrangeans, but clearly follow the discussion and sources, which is P&G based. Only one !vote clearly should be discarded. The !vote that the article had been emasculated by an editor and thus should not exist was clearly spurious. But it certainly appears to me that 16 of the 17 keep votes were based in policy. Further, looking at these 16 P&G based !votes, I cannot see what would then be discarded as a delete unless. There are two !votes that were to delete or to rename (failing deletion). These were from memphisto and Chaotic Enby. The rename view was also expressed by Austronesier and Bluethricecreamman, but without the delete preference. These delete votes, where it is delete or should not be excluded as "delete unless". M.Bitton !voted delete but suggested we could salvage non POV to Child_sexual_abuse_in_the_United_Kingdom#Group_based_child_sexual_exploitation. This one could be read as a !vite to merge. Salvaging information to another target is a merge outcome, even though the delete vote might imply they would be unhappy with the resulting redirect. Counting it as merge is still a valid "do something" and again, should not be summarily discarded. So we have 15 valid deletes, 1 new merge, the 2 redirects. What of the keeps? Well 6 of the keep votes claimed the article was well sourced. It was not until Alaexis commented that any sources were brought to AfD and Jonathan Deamer cited 3 more. All newspapers. None of the arguments addressed the WP:BESTSOURCES argument but they are policy based and should not be summarily excluded. Of the remaining, PARAKANYAA mentioned sources but noted they focus on ethnicity and not race. That is probably P&G based as it is also considering sources. Necrosthesp claimed it is a major thing and "the majority of perpetrators have been of Pakistani heritage and Muslim faith" - which was shown to be false. The majority are white. jtrainor mereley claimed it "exists and clearly notable" which is claerly not P&G based. DanielRigal said we should have it because it covers perennial allegations, which is not P&G based. Biohistorian15 said it is an established term "I have personally heard”, which is clearly subjective and not P&G based. So I believe it would be generous to say that 7 of those are P&G based. It is entirely right that closers have discretion to weigh arguments when closing an AfD, but I believe that the closer has erred in this case. It is not clear how so many of the delete !votes could be discarded and 11 keep votes be found based on P&G arguments alone. I think a good faith and careful analysis of the discussion shows most of the participants engaged with policy based reasons, and having their views summarily excluded is an unfair representation of the time and effort participants put into understanding this topic and expressing their views. Sirfurboy🏄 (talk) 12:09, 4 September 2024 (UTC)
|
The above is an archive of the deletion review of the page listed in the heading. Please do not modify it. |
|
---|
The following is an archived debate of the deletion review of the page above. Please do not modify it. |
Procedurally, this was a bad close, regardless of the outcome. As the AfD nominator, I do not feel a need to relist, but I do feel that the irregularities and some concerning factors about the close should be reviewed.
|
The above is an archive of the deletion review of the page listed in the heading. Please do not modify it. |
|
---|
The following is an archived debate of the deletion review of the page above. Please do not modify it. |
Karinvanderlaag (talk) 13:45, 2 September 2024 (UTC)
|
The above is an archive of the deletion review of the page listed in the heading. Please do not modify it. |
| ||||
---|---|---|---|---|
The following is an archived debate of the deletion review of the page above. Please do not modify it. | ||||
1. Article was deleted after having been previously undeleted, see [Uwadi] and the administrator who made the final deletion did not consider my contest on the article's talk page. 2. Article have been recreated twice meaning the subject is notable enough considering the article has an entry on Hausa Wikipedia. 3. There are enough sources used during the most recent recreation and if it is believed the article does not meet WP:NOTABILITY, I am also separately requesting for the article to be restored to a draft for further improvement. 4. The article was nominated for speedy deletion under G4 simply because the editor who placed the template for speedy deletion realized the article was recreated and not that the article does not meet WP:NOTABILITY as the consensus for its earlier deletions.Jõsé hola 19:43, 1 September 2024 (UTC)
| ||||
The above is an archive of the deletion review of the page listed in the heading. Please do not modify it. |
|
---|
The following is an archived debate of the deletion review of the page above. Please do not modify it. |
Three rationales were provided for why the closer chose the result she did: First, the issue of systemic bias, which boiled down to keeping this because it happened in Canada. This has nothing to do with any notability guideline, and there are some problematic implications of giving different countries different worth in deletion discussions (this is ignoring the various nationalistic aspersions, which are beyond the purview of this forum). Second is that there are "ample sources demonstrating notability". This suggests the closer did not look closely at the sources, which are all news articles about the event itself. Simply being in the news indicates primary source coverage that does not meet GNG's requirement of secondary coverage (the whole point of which is that reliable sources should be choosing which news stories are notable, not Wikipedia editors). If you're not familiar with the use of newspapers in historiography, WP:PRIMARYNEWS has a good explainer. Third is that other articles haven't been deleted, which is about as textbook an example of WP:OTHERSTUFFEXISTS as it gets. Every keep argument was based on these three arguments, generic "I consider this important or consequential" statements, or crystal ball speculation about whether it might be notable in the future. There's no scenario where the arguments at this AfD result in a keep without a headcount or a supervote. Thebiguglyalien (talk) 02:22, 31 August 2024 (UTC)
|
The above is an archive of the deletion review of the page listed in the heading. Please do not modify it. |
The Peel Club (closed)
| ||||||||||||||||
---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
The following is an archived debate of the deletion review of the page above. Please do not modify it. | ||||||||||||||||
The article "The Peel Club" was drastically overhauled in its last 24 hours of editing by me, resulting in a fully compliant, high-quality, well-researched page with both primary and secondary sources. The primary source material includes authoritative references from the UK Parliament and the University of Glasgow, supplemented by various books from 1836 to 1840 that offer significant historical insights, involving two Prime Ministers. The main contentions that justify this review are as follows: 1. The initial draft of the article was indeed underdeveloped and flagged for improvement. However, the revised version addressed all concerns raised, meeting Wikipedia's quality standards. 2. I resolved the orphan page warning by linking the article to related pages, which seemed to have drawn undue suspicion. 3. The article was deemed promotional due to my inexperience and lack of neutrality in my first attempt. However, my intention was to contribute valuable historical content on a topic I am particularly knowledgeable about. 4. Editors mistakenly refuted the connection between the new Peel Club and the original, despite the new club's clear claim to continuity. This was substantiated on the Talk page, which hosted a detailed explanation of the legitimacy of this claim. Unfortunately, this explanation was overlooked by the reviewing editors. 5. My edits were based on empirical evidence from the sources cited and accompanied by thorough justifications for each change, yet these were repeatedly undone without proper review. 6. An error on the "Glasgow University Conservative Association" page linked to this page, and my correction (including the proper use of "The" in "The Peel Club" and appropriate linking) was accurate. This well-researched page added crucial information to Wikipedia and the editorial process that led to its deletion was hasty and dismissive of the significant improvements made. I request a review of the page to assess its professional standard and content integrity. If the page cannot be restored, I also request the recovery of the Talk page essay where I detailed my rationale for retaining the article, as it contains valuable arguments that could be used for future reference. Thank you. Hellenistic accountant (talk) 22:40, 26 August 2024 (UTC)
| ||||||||||||||||
The above is an archive of the deletion review of the page listed in the heading. Please do not modify it. |
Collective PAC (closed)
|
---|
The following is an archived debate of the deletion review of the page above. Please do not modify it. |
I objected to the original proposed deletion and my objection stands. Collective PAC is sufficiently notable. Stefanie and Quentin James don't have Wikipedia pages and this page is a sufficient landing site for information about them as well. The lister then re-proposed the article for deletion. The Cunctator (talk) 20:50, 26 August 2024 (UTC) If the perceived problem is that Quentin James is notable but Collective PAC, the correct solution would be to preserve its content and redirect it to Quentin James, instead of deleting the Collective PAC article. But simply keeping a well-referenced article would be just as reasonable. --The Cunctator (talk) 20:59, 26 August 2024 (UTC)
|
The above is an archive of the deletion review of the page listed in the heading. Please do not modify it. |