Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Scotland

More cleanup required

The same editor who caused the confusion over lakes and lochs (see above) has also been making prolific changes in other areas. Whilst I'm sure these edits are well-intentioned, and many have cleaned up aspects of article categorization, some have been unhelpful. I suspect this editor is not aware of the culture of Scotland, such as the peculiar sensitivity to calling lochs "lakes", and he/she seems to believe that Mull is uninhabited, and that the islands of the Firth of Clyde and Pentland Firth are part of the Inner Hebrides. He/she has also moved many articles on islands without discussion away from the comma-based disambiguation specified by WP:UKPLACE to parenthetic disambiguation, e.g. Jura, Scotland to Jura (Scotland). I have moved back the main islands that were affected, Jura, Lismore, Yell and Sanday, but there seem to be many more smaller islands needing attention. We seem to be very short of active editors here at the moment – any help appreciated! --Deskford (talk) 13:47, 20 July 2015 (UTC)

I'd suggest drawing the editor's attention to your post here so that they can return to the articles they have affected and pitch in with the cleanup and reversions required. Mutt Lunker (talk) 14:39, 20 July 2015 (UTC)

Good suggestion. I did raise the issue on their talk page a month ago, but let's try pinging them here... @Hmains: if you could help with moving these Scottish island pages back to their agreed names using comma-based disambiguation then I would be very grateful, as I'm sure would be many of my fellow Scottish WP editors. --Deskford (talk) 22:30, 20 July 2015 (UTC)

If anyone knows how to mechanically make such changes, I would like to know how. Changing names by ordinary editors like me seems to be a one-way path--if I could even find which ones are involved. Hmains (talk) 01:46, 21 July 2015 (UTC)

I'm not sure if there is a way of doing it mechanically. Reverting page moves often requires administrator action – which makes WP:BRD difficult to apply in practice – so I was rather surprised to find I was allowed to move back the ones I did. --Deskford (talk) 12:57, 23 July 2015 (UTC)

Still quite a few articles moved by @Hmains: that haven't been returned to their original location. Here are some: Eilean Mòr (Loch Dunvegan), Eilean Mòr (Loch Langavat), Eilean Glas (Scalpay), East Loch Tarbert (Argyll), West Loch Tarbert (Argyll), Loch Tarber (Jura), Wiay (Uist), Papa (Shetland), Pabbay (Harris), Oronsay (Outer Hebrides), Oronsay (Loch Bracadale), Lamba (Shetland), Lingay (Fiaray), Langa (Shetland), Linga (Hildasay), Linga (Yell), Linga (Vementry), Linga (Vaila), Linga (Samphrey), Linga (Muckle Roe), Linga Sound (Shetland), Eas Mòr (upper), Eas Mòr (lower), Forsan (Shetland), Blae Loch (Beith), Lochlea (South Ayrshire), Lochend Loch (Coylton), Lindston Loch (South Ayrshire), Galrigs Loch (Ayrshire), Clevens Loch (Ayrshire), Loch o' th' Lowes (New Cumnock), Black Loch (New Cumnock), Holy Isle (Firth of Clyde), Hoy (Shetland), Ward Hill (Hoy), Càrn Dearg (Monadh Liath), Ben Vorlich (Loch Lomond), Uyea (Unst), Uyea (Northmavine), Little Holm (Yell Sound), Little Holm (Scatness), Muckle Holm (Yell Sound), Bigga (Shetland), Balta (Shetland), Fara (Orkney), Cava (Orkney), Harris (Scotland), Insh (Slate Islands), Soay (St Kilda), Lingeigh (North Uist), Flodday (Loch Maddy), Stroma (Scotland), Inner Sound (Scotland), River Carron (Sutherland), River Carron (Forth), River Devon (Clackmannanshire), River Esk (Lothian), River Tyne (Scotland), River Almond (Lothian), River Almond (Perth and Kinross), River Leven (Dunbartonshire), River Calder (Renfrewshire), River Tyne (Scotland), River Dee (Aberdeenshire), River Don (Aberdeenshire), Dorback Burn (Findhorn), River Isla (Moray), River Esk (Dumfries and Galloway), River Dee (Galloway), Douglas Water (Loch Fyne), Loch Fada (Colonsay), Loch Long (Highlands), Lake Louise (Skibo Castle), Fraoch Eilean (Loch Lomond), Meall Buidhe (Glen Lyon), Sandwick (Whalsay), Little Water (Whalsay). I hope we can make some progress with this. Drchriswilliams (talk) 16:00, 26 July 2015 (UTC)

I think that's the list above dealt with now, pending a few requiring admin attention. Mutt Lunker (talk) 13:17, 14 August 2015 (UTC)

That's quite a list. I've moved two more back – Soay, St Kilda and Harris, Scotland – as I happened to come across them, but I don't have time to go systematically through the list. I notice in fact that Harris has been moved back and forth between Harris, Scotland and Harris, Outer Hebrides several times. I'm not sure which corresponds more closely to our naming convention. --Deskford (talk) 15:29, 1 August 2015 (UTC)

In regard to the time required to sort this all out, it's rather disappointing that the editor responsible appears to have plenty to carry out fresh edits but not to return here to clean up after themself. Mutt Lunker (talk) 15:42, 1 August 2015 (UTC)

looks like Scalpay (Outer Hebrides) was another article moved in August but escaped the list above, can someone please move it back. Drchriswilliams (talk) 09:35, 10 October 2015 (UTC)

Done. --Cactus.man ✍ 13:52, 10 October 2015 (UTC)

I've just moved a few more back to where they were: Scarp, Scotland; Shillay, Monach Islands and Pabbay, Barra Isles. There are no doubt more still to be discovered. --Deskford (talk) 18:29, 10 October 2015 (UTC)

I've done a few more. The user's move log ( https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Special:Log&offset=20150701000000&limit=250&type=move&user=Hmains&page=&tagfilter= ) may be of use in identifying problematic moves which seem to have been made on 28 June2015 and before. --Cactus.man ✍ 20:28, 10 October 2015 (UTC)

St John's Renfield Church

It seems to me that the "St John's Renfield Church" article needs to be bolstered up. The fact the Chalmers himself was the first Minister at St John's, the switch at the Dissension to the Free church, the memorable Ministry of Dods at Renfield and the quantity of Moderators and professors that the Church produced are worthy of a more detailed article.

Over the next 2 days, I intend to expand the historical section, provide a complete list of Ministers since 1819 while leaving the rest of the article untouched.

Please look in and comment. Kpobi2 (talk) 15:29, 27 July 2015 (UTC)

Question on Dalrymple, Ayrshire

Hello, I tried to disambiguate a couple of links to Dalrymple. Turns out this Wikipedia has links to a Dalrymple, East Ayrshire and a Dalrymple, South Ayrshire. But looking at the coordinates on a map, it seems to me it's the same Dalrymple. Is there maybe a difference between the village and the parish, the latter possibly stretching out across two council areas? Anyone in the know, please have a look, and see if you can get the links and associated articles fixed. Rgds, --Midas02 (talk) 03:50, 14 August 2015 (UTC)

I think you're right about the village/parish situation. Looking at the OS map, the village is at the tip of westwards projecting salient of East Ayrshire into South Ayrshire with the boundary skirting the village to the north and south and with a small part of the village south of the River Doon in S Ayrshire, as is the Dalrymple wood less than a mile to the south west. It's not unusual for parishes to lie across historical county or modern political divisions though I don't know if this is a result of the creation of the latest 1996 divisions or not. Not sure how to resolve the existence of the two links but if the parish is indeed split between E and S Ayrshire, I guess Dalrymple, East Ayrshire and Dalrymple, South Ayrshire are both valid units but unlikely to support stand-alone articles under their part-parish definition. Possibly an addition to the dab page to make:

"===Scotland===

• Dalrymple, East Ayrshire, a small ex-mining village near the west coast of Scotland
• Dalrymple, South Ayrshire, the part of the parish of the above which falls in the adjacent South Ayrshire council area"

or the like? Not sure if Dalrymple, South Ayrshire should stay red-linked, be a redirect to Dalrymple, East Ayrshire or to the dab page though. Mutt Lunker (talk) 10:38, 14 August 2015 (UTC)

Thanks! I implemented a modified version of that change, at the Dalrymple disambiguation page. (Since Dalrymple, South Ayrshire is currently a redlink, there needs to be a supporting bluelink to an article that uses the redlink in a meaningful context, per MOS:DABRL.) doncram 18:04, 14 August 2015 (UTC)

Here's a map of the parish which would support that the parish lies across the council boundary, the Doon forming the parish boundary (although they display slightly misaligned in my browser at least) and the parts of the parish to the west and immediately to the north of the village falling in modern S Ayrshire.

Regarding the links to Dalrymple, South Ayrshire: Kerse Loch is in East Ayrshire so I've corrected this; the William Burnes one regards the 18th century parish school in the village itself which should probably therefore link to the village article at Dalrymple, East Ayrshire, even if it happened to fall in the tiny part of the village now in S Ayrshire, likewise amended. Carcluie Loch and Lindston Loch, South Ayrshire are a little over a mile to the north west and north east of the village respectively but are in S Ayrshire. Mutt Lunker (talk) 11:08, 14 August 2015 (UTC)

Thanks to both of you for your attention to this matter. The fact that South Ayrshire borders Dalrymple on the south, and yet comes around to the north, tricked me, about Lindston Loch, South Ayrshire. It was complicated by the fact that Google maps can show East Ayrshire's borders when one searches on East Ayshire (and are zoomed out, they go visible when zoomed in), but not when one searches on Lindston Loch. And also by the fact that the article did not display coordinates for Lindston Loch. I revised the Lindston Loch article to display coordinates in its lede, instead of in the Lakes infobox, and with use of name= parameter but not type= parameter (see history of article for various permutations tried. I am left wondering why the article says the loch "was" a freshwater lake, when it still is. Maybe it was meant to say the loch was once much larger or something?

Kerse Loch's coordinates also do not display. I'll leave that as is, could one of you fix it? Perhaps you can figure out if there is a general problem for coordinates display for lakes in this area. Thanks. doncram 17:51, 14 August 2015 (UTC)

I was just about to post on the talk page to the same effect as, although not large, Lindston Loch is clearly marked on the OS map, about 150 metres in length. Yes, it's also marked on Google maps but the satellite view indicates a clearing between and surrounded by a wood to the north and south, with vegetation, including some shrubs or small trees. Does it appear seasonally perhaps? Mutt Lunker (talk) 18:03, 14 August 2015 (UTC)

The only problem left is that Dalrymple, South Ayrshire is now leading a life as a red link, and will more than probably never receive an article. Wouldn't it be best to redirect it to Dalrymple, and make a note of it on the article that there is a) a village predominantly lying with E. Ayrshire, and b) a parish, which stretches out across both councils (which would also correct the current statement which reads "... is a village and civil parish in East Ayrshire, Scotland")? --Midas02 (talk) 03:27, 15 August 2015 (UTC)

Dalrymple, South Ayrshire should exist solely as a redirect. That is because the parish of Dalrymple is a single entity that is in both council areas. The dab page should not link to Dalrymple, South Ayrshire, but the listing for Dalrymple should mention it is partially in South Ayrshire. The lead of the article should also mention that the parish is in both areas.

An alternative solution is to split the two meanings of Dalrymple into two separate articles - making Dalrymple, East Ayrshire solely about the village, and creating Dalrymple (civil parish). This may be a better solution as articles solely about parishes (eg Abernethy and Kincardine) are viable.--Nilfanion (talk) 09:12, 15 August 2015 (UTC)

Note this is not a issue solely for Dalyrmple. By my estimation, 55 parishes of the 871 parishes listed by the GRO cross council area boundaries.

Parishes in multiple council areas
3

Some of these are relatively minor and would not be the case if the parish boundaries were not frozen from 80 years ago (eg Edinburgh would be aligned to the current boundary). Straiton is even worse than Dalrymple, as its about 50% in the "wrong" council area.--Nilfanion (talk) 09:05, 15 August 2015 (UTC)

Ok, I've fixed it then as per the proposition I made. The South Ayrshire link has been redirected to the article as well. That will do for the time being. If someone wants to create an article about the civil parish at a later point in time, he can always do so. If it's not against the naming standard, you may want to ask an admin to move the whole article to Dalrymple, Scotland as well, as it is the common denominator for a civil parish which lies in both council areas. --Midas02 (talk) 01:53, 16 August 2015 (UTC)

Vidlin

Could someone who knows about the Norse origins of Shetland names please look at this edit on Vidlin? Other edits by this user have been non-constructive, but with this one I'm unsure. A source would be useful. --Deskford (talk) 20:16, 24 August 2015 (UTC)

This editor has continued to edit disruptively elsewhere, so I have made the assumption that this edit must also be regarded as unreliable. I have reverted it. --Deskford (talk) 08:53, 19 September 2015 (UTC)

New article

I had the pleasure of writing Trinity Chain Pier recently. I invite anyone with interest to look it over. There are already some interesting discussions on the talk page. --John (talk) 22:58, 31 August 2015 (UTC)

Fascinating read, thanks. Mutt Lunker (talk) 23:44, 1 September 2015 (UTC)

Clan Duncan

A few weeks ago there was a rather bizarre and disruptive editing campaign at Clan Duncan which was largely reverted piecemeal but appears to have left the article somewhat changed nonetheless. There was also copious posting on the talk page by the same editor, some of a mud-slinging nature and much of it about a Clan Duncan website. The individual named in the posts has now responded in dismay at the changes and the posts. He seems to be considerably more articulate but as his website appears to be at least in part of a campaigning nature, I thought it might be worthwhile having a few more eyes across matters. Mutt Lunker (talk) 21:06, 17 September 2015 (UTC)

I thought it had already been reverted... I've changed it to the earlier version for the time being. Catfish Jim and the soapdish 13:12, 18 September 2015 (UTC)

Thanks. Might be worth anyone knowledgeable on the topic checking this version too though. Mutt Lunker (talk) 15:12, 18 September 2015 (UTC)

Probably. I tend to avoid clan articles for various reasons, but the disruptive behaviour of the other editor makes me suspect the current version is more reliable. Good catch on the rant on Talk:England. Catfish Jim and the soapdish 15:39, 18 September 2015 (UTC)

Thanks. Aye, some clan articles can be real repositories of shortbread tin havers. My impression is also that the revert is a marked improvement. Mutt Lunker (talk) 16:23, 18 September 2015 (UTC)

Category:Scottish Gaelic-speaking people

Participants here may be interested in a CfD proposal to delete Category:Scottish Gaelic-speaking people. It can be found here. Sionk (talk) 18:53, 18 September 2015 (UTC)

Glaswegian—a dialect or an accent? And of which language?

Hi everyone! We're trying to define Glaswegian for Wiktionary, but aren't sure whether it's a dialect or an accent, and of which language—English or Scots. I was hoping that maybe the participants of this project could help. :)

The article on Glaswegian here on Wikipedia says that it's a dialect, but doesn't cite any sources, nor does it offer any arguments.

If it's a dialect, then the lexicon and grammar should differ considerably from the lexicon and grammar of whichever language it is a dialect of. So, if it's a dialect of Scots, it should be considerably different from Scots. It seems to me that it could either be a dialect of English, or an accent of Scots, but I haven't had enough exposure to Glaswegian to be sure.

Does anybody know the answer? Is there a scientific consensus? :)

All input is welcome! :) Pfftallofthemaretaken (talk) 20:03, 28 September 2015 (UTC)

• Glaswegian is recognised as a dialect of the Scots language. Various reliable sources at Google Books search and recognized as one of four such dialects by the Scottish government. Haruth (talk) 14:44, 24 October 2015 (UTC)

Photos from Glasgow Museums & Braemar Castle now on WikiCommons

Hello all - following the Backstage Pass event at Glasgow Museums (hidden parts of Kelvingrove Art Gallery & Museum, the currently-under-refurbishment Kelvin Hall, and the Riverside Museum), and a small but interesting collaboration with Braemar Castle, there are new photographs available on WikiCommons which may be of interest to the community here.

• Images from Braemar Castle
• Glasgow Museums GLAMWiki images

There's some interesting shots of 18th century graffiti at Braemar Castle, as well as Delft tiles and some furniture. If anyone would like further information on any of these items, please ask and I can contact the Castle Manager who I'm sure will be happy to help!

In the Glasgow Museums' selection, we saw the Lewis & Company organ, and there are a number of unusual architectural features. There are more pictures to be added to this category so please do check back. Again, should you have any questions about these items please shout - I'll speak to the Wiki Working Group there and see what they can do! Lirazelf (talk) 15:53, 1 October 2015 (UTC)

"The Duke of Edinburgh Awards"

The usage of The Duke of Edinburgh Awards is under discussion, see talk:The Duke of Edinburgh Awards -- 70.51.202.113 (talk) 23:46, 2 October 2015 (UTC)

Highland Clearances

There have been some changes in the last couple of weeks to Highland Clearances which may be valid but just a little poorly expressed and unfocused but they are largely uncited, a bit rambling, have a POV-y ring to them and some aspects seem factually questionable. I'm inclined to revert but would welcome other views. Mutt Lunker (talk) 22:50, 15 October 2015 (UTC)

From The Doctor to my son Thomas - featured article candidate

I've nominated the article about the video From The Doctor to my son Thomas for Featured Article consideration.

The article is about a message sent from actor Peter Capaldi in-character in his role as the Doctor on Doctor Who, to console an autistic young boy over grief from the death of his grandmother.

Comments would be appreciated, at Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/From The Doctor to my son Thomas/archive1.

Thank you for your time,

— Cirt (talk) 01:05, 20 October 2015 (UTC)

Archived addressed threads

Archived addressed threads. Metric used was older than one (1) year, notices of deletion discussions since closed, notices of move discussions since closed, notices of meetups that already came and passed, etc. — Cirt (talk) 06:32, 20 October 2015 (UTC)

Template:Scottish English

{{Scottish English}} has been nominated for deletion -- 70.51.44.60 (talk) 06:53, 20 October 2015 (UTC)

Goidelic languages listed at Requested moves

A requested move discussion has been initiated for Goidelic languages to be moved to Gaelic languages. This page is of interest to this WikiProject and interested members may want to participate in the discussion here. —  AjaxSmack  02:13, 24 October 2015 (UTC)