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This is an old revision of this page, as edited by Frania Wisniewska (talk | contribs) at 14:22, 5 September 2011 (→Lead photograph again: aftermath is not the action itself). The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this revision, which may differ significantly from the current revision.

Former good articleBattle of France was one of the History good articles, but it has been removed from the list. There are suggestions below for improving the article to meet the good article criteria. Once these issues have been addressed, the article can be renominated. Editors may also seek a reassessment of the decision if they believe there was a mistake.
Article milestones
DateProcessResult
July 21, 2006Good article nomineeListed
December 28, 2007Good article reassessmentDelisted
Current status: Delisted good article

Reluctance of Reynaud to surrender

I found a citation for that; it's a newspaper clipping: http://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=950&dat=19660921&id=AtoLAAAAIBAJ&sjid=QlcDAAAAIBAJ&pg=5224,3352623 I am horrible at editing wiki pages, so please add.

Lead photograph and image censorship

This image is being repeatedly removed from the article
  • French users have been deleting a photograph of German soldiers marching in Paris. (User:UltimaRatio [1] User:Frania Wisniewska [2]). This is unacceptable, and should it happen again it will have to be reported in the proper venue as POV content blanking.
  • The current lead image depicts British prisoners of war at Dunkirk. British forces formed 5% of the military forces engaged in the Battle of France (316,000/6,650,000) or around 9.5% of the total Allied forces (316,000/3,300,000), so imho we can probably do better. This battle was, bay far, the most significant Axis victory of World War II, and imho the removed image best represents the catastrophic nature of the defeat and is a good candidate for the lead. It is also a very famous photograph very representative of the overall outcome of the Battle of France. --DIREKTOR (TALK) 19:14, 6 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
First I'm not French, second I'm not nationalist, third your favourite picture does not picture the battle of France and is redundant with an other nazi propaganda picture in the article.UltimaRatio (talk) 20:59, 6 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Please. The picture does depict the Battle of France (10 May – 25 June 1940) - it was taken on 14 June 1940. Secondly, by your narrow "definition" of what depicts the Battle of France, the picture of prisoners of war does not do so either. You will be reported for repeated content blanking. --DIREKTOR (TALK) 21:07, 6 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Yeah, do it please. Your very "helpful" contributions on the French history and your intolerable behaviour on the discussion pages will be reported too.UltimaRatio (talk) 21:17, 6 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
You do not get to decide and proclaim images "redundant", remove them and then edit-war over it. Your entire rationale is nonsensical. --DIREKTOR (TALK) 22:15, 6 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
The Nazis marching by the Arch of Triumph seems a very fitting image for the article's lead photo, as compared with a generic photo of some POW's. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 22:19, 6 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Damn straight Baseball, this image is famous and certainly belongs in the article mark nutley (talk) 22:35, 6 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
As opposed to being deleted entirely from the article... on a whim --DIREKTOR (TALK) 22:36, 6 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
One concern I have is the user griping about "Nazi propaganda". Maybe it was such in 1940, but now it's merely a historical fact, as the Huns were driven from France (how's that for some propaganda?) and the country is mostly in the hands of the French and the tourists now... some of whom are even German. It's an iconic photo. I don't see why the user should have a problem with it. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 22:44, 6 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
We should find a photo of tourist formations marching past the Arc. Historical perspective. --DIREKTOR (TALK) 23:00, 6 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
They seem to be marching rather casually; and note the guy in the background, on a bicycle, wearing a primitive version of a cyclist's helmet. Maybe they were tourists... wearing the latest Paris fashions. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 23:07, 6 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
There are about three pictures of Nazis parading in Paris in this article (2 marching in front of the Arc de Triomphe)... Isn't it slightly redundant ? UltimaRatio (talk) 13:04, 7 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Not really, the germans walked all over paris. It is kinda the iconic image of france after it`s defeat really, so the images are fine. mark nutley (talk) 15:52, 7 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Yeah, I was surprised to notice this famous photo was under-represented when it is freely available - it depicts in one image an entire period of French history. I'm not so surprised after these discussions, though... --DIREKTOR (TALK) 19:15, 7 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]

On 26SEP10, within 6 minutes, DIREKTOR put this picture in prominence in three articles:

  • Battle of France
  • Arc de Triomphe
  • Paris

Previous to this edit[3] by DIREKTOR on 26SEP10, there was no warring about this picture which has been in article "Battle of France" for many months.

A picture representing nazi soldiers marching by the Arc de Triomphe on 14 June 1940 does not belong as first picture of the article titled "Battle of France"; it belongs to the end of it, as the "Battle of France" did not begin with naz marching through Paris.

There are plenty of pictures available illustrating a "battle", not a march to end the show. For instance, photographs similar to those[4] [5]

Also, please note that out of 15 pictures (last count),

  • 11 show Germans & German actions, including 2 of Germans marching in Paris with view of Arc de Triomphe & one of the naz-in-chief in front of Eiffel Tower;
  • 4 represent:
  1. English prisoners,
  2. French General Gamelin,
  3. French troops embarking on an British ship,
  4. one crying Frenchman.

Missing:

  • Towns & villages in ruin
  • Stukas of the Luftwaffe diving on columns of refugees during the exodus, zeroing in on the millions of Dutch, Belgian, French people on the roads, killing an unknown number.

--Frania W. (talk) 00:49, 7 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I'm sure those could all be subjects to be explored in the body of the article. The lead photo indicates a summary of what happened - namely, that the Nazis (temporarily) conquered Paris. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 01:29, 7 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I've added the picture during the same session (within six minutes! :) because I had just finished cropping and repairing the image with my new Photoshop CS5 - along with a very very large number of other files including images of Napoleon Bonaparte and Charles de Gaulle, as well as (finally) introducing proper French colours from the tricolour in the Free French Flag, etc., etc...
You should know, the usual method of attacking me with absurd ideological implications is to call me a "communist". I'm rather enjoying the change of pace. :D But seriously, I'm certainly not any sort of "Nazi-sympathizer" (I'm not even German), so I seriously suggest you cease opposing this image on such grounds and with such implications. --DIREKTOR (TALK) 02:02, 7 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]


I'm French, so DIREKTOR, once more, will talk about the French users, nationalists… but

This picture is not related to the Low Countries or, more specifically, Belgium or the Netherlands.
File:British prisoners at Dunkerque, France.jpg is much more related to the campaign; the Battle of Dunkirk was the turning point of the whole campaign; I put this pict back as lead image. Alvar☮ 11:05, 10 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]


@DIREKTOR: File:Bundesarchiv Bild 101I-126-0347-09A, Paris, Deutsche Truppen am Arc de Triomphe.jpg can be found on Wehrmacht, Battle of France, History of France and Arc de Triomphe; isn't it too much? Alvar☮ 11:05, 10 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

As there was never a consensus for the change in the first place, I have put the photo of the English POWs back at top of article & that of the marching naz in the section where it chronologically belongs.
--Frania W. (talk) 04:11, 11 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Let me suggest a solution. Why don't you create some kind of collage picture, just like in Eastern Front (World War II)'s infobox ? Naevus 16:45, 11 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you Naevus for the suggestion.
Another suggestion (mine) would be the use of a map, which gives a better idea of the evolution of a battle. i.e. what the article is about.
This would solve the problem of the photographs, which could then be put in their respective place.
May I also suggest that at least one picture of refugees on the roads of France, as the illustration of the 1940 Battle of France cannot be summarised with one photograph of English POWs and several of German officers & naz marching through Paris. Nothing in this article represents the civilian population. Millions from the Netherlands, Belgium & France were on the roads.
--Frania W. (talk) 19:11, 11 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Or... OR... we could NOT censor an image from Wikipedia? How's that for a suggestion? :P User:Frania Wisniewska & pals are roaming around Wikipedia with a bunch of buddies (likely recruited after a while from frWiki) trying to remove this image because it depicts French defeat. In the Battle of France. :P
I don't mind a colage if it includes the famous pic of the German parade, but I think we will all find "User:Frania & pals" is here to REMOVE this image from the lead, not to improve the images in this article. They will not accept any colage idea that includes this image.
These folks should not be allowed to get away with this. You'd have to be pretty stupid not to see through this play and its primary goal. --DIREKTOR (TALK) 10:41, 15 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Apart from the paranoid and melodramatic tone—your attempt to discredit any opposition to your contentious edits as malicious "censorship" is a deplorable tactic—your caption is factually incorrect: Paris did not "surrender," but was declared an open city 13 June when the French government moved to Bordeaux. The Armistice—i.e. the "surrender" of France, if it'll make you happy—was declared 22 June, meaning there had occurred nothing by the date of the photo that remotely fits your description. Secondly—and I hold this to be the proper context for any disinterested and honest discussion of the topic—given the organized, focused, relentless, and extremely effective campaigns, waged in the United States in particular and in English-speaking countries more generally, to besmirch, discredit, and ridicule French military history, your denunciation of other editors' "ulterior motives" are bound to come across as a little disingenuous. The Eastern Front ended with the raising of the Soviet flag over the Reichstag—an "iconic" image if I ever saw one—but the editors there apparently did not find it essential to plant that photograph in the Infobox. Albrecht (talk) 22:48, 15 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]
You're looking for villains in the wrong places. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 23:08, 15 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]
My tone may be rough I admit, but I think my frustration is not without cause. Why in the world should this image be removed from Wikipedia?? --DIREKTOR (TALK) 02:39, 16 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I assume you're talking to Albrecht. He's looking for a conspiracy that isn't there. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 02:54, 16 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Oh yeah, I'm a Nazi that hates the French military. I mean, this is the first time I ever discussed (or even thought about) it, but hey why not... :)
A couple of times (no time to look, but it must have occurred at the discussion page of either the Battle of France, Arc de Triomphe or the Légion d'honneur), seemingly joking, you mentioned being considered by some as a "communist" and/or a "nazi-sympathizer", which, if any one of us had done, would have brought upon our heads the foudres de Jupiter[6] & immediate dismissal from Wikipedia. Now, upon reading your above comment referring to yourself as a naz, an English-language saying about a duck [7] popped in my mind and simply won't go away.
--Frania W. (talk) 17:37, 16 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]
@Albrecht Btw, to declare an "open city" is a type of surrender where a city surrenders without battle (quote: "abandoning all defensive efforts") - as opposed to "conventional" surrender, a term which does not imply there was no fighting (e.g. the surrender of Warsaw). Also thank you for the history lesson, however I assure you your efforts were needless. --DIREKTOR (TALK) 10:48, 16 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]
When he said "Paris did not 'surrender', but was declared an 'open city'" (in other words, they fled), I was reminded of this guy. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 18:35, 16 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Baseball Bugs, I am wondering to what extend your constant disparaging remarks about France, the French & French users on France-related articles should not be considered to be libels [8]. I am wondering if others, French or non-French contributors to en:wiki read your defamatory statements the way I do.

--Frania W. (talk) 19:51, 16 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

As can be seen, User:Frania likes very much to single out users as "French-haters" for opposing his image removals. :) Subtle Nazi implications included, of course. --DIREKTOR (TALK) 22:50, 16 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Director, you've got some guts! Who is the author of the following:
  • Oh yeah, I'm a Nazi that hates the French military.[9] ?
And you do not have to answer me because I am not going to be dragged into one of your favorite games of ambushing people, then report them to a wiki administrator for daring to stand up to your tactics of intimidation.
--Frania W. (talk) 01:34, 17 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Frania. I was being sarcastic. Please read the remainder of the post (along with the context) more carefully.
If it will stop these continuous ad hominems... I am a Croat from the Mediterranean coast, a student of medicine, a Wiki user with several years experience and 20,000+ edits, and a WWII buff who always wanted to learn French. I am not a Nazi. I do not "hate" France. I just come from the problematic Balkans articles which made me quite allergic to nationalism influencing encyclopedia content.
Bugs is one of the best guys around. You are being far too defensive by far regarding revealing these perceived "anti-French plots" and "schemes". --DIREKTOR (TALK) 13:11, 17 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Putting this photo to summarise the Battle of France is a shame. There are obviously too many French-hater people on Wikipedia, this is pure French bashing. You only try to make people believe this battle was a "promenade" for the Germans, but the truth is this battle was bloody and harsh. Why don't you use a photo showing French soldiers on the front? I give you this choice:

http://www.google.fr/imgres?imgurl=http://carlpepin.files.wordpress.com/2010/09/armee-francaise17.jpg&imgrefurl=http://carlpepin.com/2010/09/14/breve-histoire-de-larmee-francaise-2e-partie/&usg=__LP6SHhg01jY8FscLavaJprGhT6Q=&h=277&w=400&sz=42&hl=fr&start=0&zoom=1&tbnid=a2SBhDXIY269RM:&tbnh=130&tbnw=171&ei=gYqgTbPMJ8mh8QPJkYmoAw&prev=/images%3Fq%3Darm%25C3%25A9e%2Bfran%25C3%25A7aise%2B1940%26um%3D1%26hl%3Dfr%26biw%3D1345%26bih%3D551%26tbm%3Disch&um=1&itbs=1&iact=hc&vpx=300&vpy=77&dur=590&hovh=187&hovw=270&tx=164&ty=66&oei=gYqgTbPMJ8mh8QPJkYmoAw&page=1&ndsp=21&ved=1t:429,r:1,s:0 —Preceding unsigned comment added by 79.85.95.224 (talk) 16:40, 9 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Most battles are bloody and harsh. The casuality figures for the germans are included in the article. However it's an unavoidable fact that this campaign is one of the most decisive victories ever. And this victory is emphasised by the prolonged stalemate in WWI.
As for the image you provide, who owns the copyright? And is it provided with an open license? 88.90.43.140 (talk) 20:04, 12 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]
It is not what I am talking about! Did I deny the Battle of France was a decisive victory? I don't know if it was the "most decisive ever" but it is not the issue I pointed out. Whatever the victory, this battle can't be summarised by a single propaganda photo, and throw out the window six weeks of fightings. On the wikipage Battle of Britain, you see a Britishman watching the skies; you don't see Churchill greeting the victory on May 8th 1945. So I propose to remove this photo at the end of the article for the chapter about the French surrender, and to put another photo. I didn't know you needed the copyright so take this one, it already exists in Wikipedia.

http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:B1_bis_tank_260_Ouragan_Guise_1940.jpg

Page dump

Marek2 (talk) 20:33, 7 February 2011 (UTC) Any mention of the Polish forces contribution seems desperately missing : 3 divisions, 6 000 killed or wounded, 20 to 30 000 evacuated to Great Britain. Where is this mentioned ? Only a flag and a Commander in chief ...[reply]

If its missing then you should add it with a well referenced reliable source.--Jojhutton (talk) 21:16, 7 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Marek2 (talk) 15:39, 5 April 2011 (UTC) See Polish Armed Forces in the West or Polish contribution to World War II Marek2 (talk) 15:39, 5 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]

File:Somua S35.jpg Nominated for speedy Deletion

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File:1133517382 small.jpg Nominated for Deletion

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Lead photograph again

who is loading the picture of Nazi passing the Arc de Triomphe. My picture is much better and relevant to the BATTLE of France. This parade happened after! — Preceding unsigned comment added by 79.85.95.144 (talk) 17:42, 31 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Hello again 79.85.95.144!
I understand your frustration, (since some wikipedians have made non-constructives comments in an over-passionate debate) but I think that insulting DIREKTOR is not the good way around. Indeed you have raised some interesting issues with this picture and I think that the best way for you to be heard is to stay cool and also receptive to the arguments of the others.
I would like to discuss what you have left on my talk page:

The picture of the German army passing the Arc de Triomphe is irrelevant. It is nothing about the Battle of France itself. The parade even happened after the 17 June 1940 (when Pétain put an end to the battle, begging for an armistice). This picture, I guess, is rather a way to mock the French again and again, showing the Battle would have been only a parade.

I think that the picture is not really irrelevant since it illustrates the consequences of the Battle of France: the storming of the capital of a country is virtually the symbol of the defeat of your opponent. Hence, even if it has nothing to do the battle itself, it can be viewed as a symbol of it: by looking at the picture you can deduce the outcome of the battle (which is very rare).
So this picture is not about mocking the french people, but it is about a striking contrast between a symbol of one of the greatest defeat of France (Nazi soldiers) and one of the greatest victory of France (Austerlitz with the Arc of Triumph), which makes this picture a unique piece of photography and history. I believe that's why it seems difficult for some wikipedians to find a better lead image...
By the way, no one could mock the french people: we weren't there, and moreover no one here have ever fought in a war to defend their soil a few years after the end of another war which depleted their country.
However I agree with you for saying that this picture is not really representative of this battle since it doesn't show the fights that have been led and the destructions it have caused all across France (Paris is not France!). Hence I think we could find a compromise (per WP:NEGOTIATION), and create a collage including this picture, as it was suggested by Naevus. (We could start with a picture of the beginning of the battle and finish by this one representing the outcome of the battle). It seems sensible since other articles have similar collages for their lead image. For instance, the lead image of Napoleonic Wars represents chronologically from the top to the bottom: the greatest victory (Austerlizt 1805) and the greatest defeat (Waterloo 1815) of Napoleon.
I wait for the comments of any wikipedian willing to solve this issue.
PS for 79.85.95.144: I think you should remove by yourself the insult, because everybody can get upset and cool down after-all! So it would show you will to participate peacefully to this debate.
Best regards. Mouloud47 (talk) 22:24, 31 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]


That's ok, I deleted the insult. I'm a calm personn, but I did get on nerves when I saw my picture removed again and again. That's over now. I have nothing against the picture of the Arc de Triomphe, I know it is world-known and I understand your view, but I don't want it to summarize the whole campaign. The idea of a collage is much good. I think we could do a four-picture collage with the Arc de Triomphe, "my" knock-out tank and two others.

I do only suggestion but anyone can find much better of course: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:British_troops_lifeboat_dunkerque.png http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fichier:Bundesarchiv_Bild_146-1971-083-01,_Frankreich,_franz%C3%B6sische_Fl%C3%BCchtlinge.jpg http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fichier:Dunkirk1retired.jpg http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fichier:Bundesarchiv_Bild_101I-383-0337-19,_Frankreich,_Calais,_zerst%C3%B6rte_Fahrzeuge.jpg http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fichier:Bundesarchiv_Bild_121-0396,_Frankreich,_Allee_mit_zerst%C3%B6rten_Fahrzeugen.jpg

Once again, thank you for your long and clever answer. Best regards. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 79.85.95.144 (talk) 08:53, 1 September 2011 (UTC)[reply]

You're welcome! Debating would be pretty dull if everyone were sharing the same opinion! As regards the two other pictures, I would choose http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fichier:Bundesarchiv_Bild_146-1971-083-01,_Frankreich,_franz%C3%B6sische_Fl%C3%BCchtlinge.jpg (I remember seeing it in some history books), and http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fichier:Dunkirk1retired.jpg (because we could make a link to the article Dunkirk evacuation).
However, I would like other wikipedians to step in, in order to get a consensus as broad as possible about this collage. Hence I will let a message on the talk page of the main contributors who participated to the previous discussion.
Best regards. Mouloud47 (talk) 17:11, 1 September 2011 (UTC)[reply]
The current picture represents the consequence of the battle of France, not the battle itself. I agree that this picture should be replaced by a picture of actual fighting. UltimaRatio (talk) 18:21, 1 September 2011 (UTC)[reply]


Hello. I think collage is a way to achieve neutrality through the representation of multiple chronological aspects and multiple points of view. All pictures mentioned above are of great historical significance, yet none of them can summarize the Battle of France without the others. When it comes to historical records, better have many than one. Best regards, Naevus 23:13, 2 September 2011 (UTC)[reply]


The Arc image depicts the result of the battle of France and it's immediate aftermath, which are both certainly a part of this article's scope. And that was the consensus. Bringing up the exact date seems more like an excuse to remove a perceived (quote) "insult to France". The image is (quite obviously imo) very well representative of the subject matter. I do not have the slightest problem with France and anyone who knows me on Wikipedia can vouch that I certainly have no pro-Nazi inclinations (quite the opposite), but this is one of the most iconic images of WWII, representing perhaps better than any other, not only the Battle of France, but the entire period of the German blitzkrieg.
That said, as I've stated above, I certainly would not mind if it were incorporated into a collage, indeed, I'll have a go at it myself when I return from vacation. With the deepest respect towards France, regards --DIREKTOR (TALK) 21:39, 4 September 2011 (UTC)[reply]

The photo of the marching naz was one of propaganda for the pleasure of the naz-in-chief. You yourself say that it "depicts the result of the Battle of France and its immediate aftermath". If so, it does not depict the battle itself. A picture supposed to represent a battle is one of the battle itself, not its aftermath. Pictures of the landing in Normandy on 06JUN44 are of GIs getting off landing craft at Omaha Beach, here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:1944_NormandyLST.jpg
as lead illustration of article "Invasion of Normandy": http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Invasion_of_Normandy not of GIs marching down the Champs Élysées with Arc de Triomphe in background on 29AUG44. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:American_troops_march_down_the_Champs_Elysees_crop.jpg
--Frania W. (talk) 14:22, 5 September 2011 (UTC)[reply]
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