Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Biography

Common name, birth name and post-nominal initials

I noticed an editor making a excellent job of cleaning up bios to conform with the MOS. In one case Mark Evaloarjuk, I notice that the style guide does not give any information as to the correct format. Is the current oepning correct, with the exception that "nee" should be "ne", or should it be '''Mark Evaloarjuk''' (né '''Evaluarjuk'''), [[Order of Canada|CM]] (died [[July 3]], [[2002]] By the way would it be possible to rewrite Wikipedia:Manual of Style (biographies)#Maiden names so that it applied to both women and men?

Listing of published biographies or just relying on the references?

After I added a "Biography Section" to an article about a person, the section was erased by another editor, the argument being that the material was already mentioned in the reference section, thus represented a "duplication", and "we" at WP don't do this. I wonder about this, as it appears inconsistently handled in WP. For example, if you check the article about Vladimir Nabokov, you will find a listing of his various published biographies, even though this represents a "duplication" as they can also be found in the references. In contrast, the article of Martin Luther King, Jr. does not display such a section, and you have to go to the references to search out his published biographies. I certainly find the situation in the former article better it being more informative and giving me an easy and concise overview, while it is not so easy in the latter case. Not only is it laborious to find them, they are haphazardly distributed, and biographies that are not referenced will be missed. Thus, it is my opinion that Biography Sections that list published biographies of persons are preferable and should generally be encouraged. Ekem (talk) 21:33, 16 March 2011 (UTC)

The normal thing to do is a WP:FURTHERREADING section, and the normal thing to do is to avoid duplication. Exceptions are occasionally made, e.g., in articles with 200 inline citations, and editors want to highlight a few truly important works. WhatamIdoing (talk) 05:09, 12 May 2011 (UTC)

Yes, it should be quite normal for sources cited in the references section to be biographies, so seems redundant to list them again. That is what "references" are for - it adds no new information. I would add that if there is a particularly notable biography, such as by an author who has an article, then it might merit putting a sentence about it in the body text too. Also if the subject wrote their own autobiography, it might deserve a mention in the body and in the references section, or "works" section generally. W Nowicki (talk) 16:07, 26 May 2011 (UTC)

Proposal: 2.6 Post-nominal initials

I propose that individuals who do not use postnominals (for instance royals, who often have altogether too many! e.g. Charles, Prince of Wales) be explicitly exempted. ✝DBD 22:45, 15 April 2011 (UTC)

Since there were no objections, I have been bold and implemented my proposition. ✝DBD 17:08, 24 May 2011 (UTC)

Postnominal initials: FRSA

From time to time I come across a biography beginning, for example:

Sir Simon Denis Rattle, CBE, FRSA

I tend to delete the letters FRSA, explaining that they are inappropriate, and nobody seems to object. I wonder whether we could establish a policy of non-inclusion for this set of postnominal initials. It seems to me that this section is for memberships in organisations which denote genuine recognition of merit, e.g. Fellow of the Royal Soceity, Fellow of the British Academy, Fellow of the Royal Historical Society, Royal Academician, Fellow of the Society of Antiquaries of London, etc. FRSA is a membership which most people can purchase for £150 p.a. (+£75 one-off joining fee). I know somebody who was approached by the RSA offering him a Fellowship, and, as somebody twice honoured by the Crown and a Fellow in two learned societies, he declined, stating that FRSA was no honour at all and just something one could buy. Other people take is as a genuine honour and are only too willing to accept, little knowing what they are buying. I know somebody else who is an FRSA but who does not use the letters because he says that he only acquired Fellowship because he wanted to be able to take guests to the RSA restaurant.--Oxonian2006 (talk) 12:13, 22 April 2011 (UTC)

I certainly delete them from non-Commonwealth holders, e.g. I've deleted it from James D. Watson. I don't add them to Commonwealth holders either, but let them be if they're already in the article. (Crick has a FRS suffix for instance.) Tijfo098 (talk) 22:34, 3 May 2011 (UTC)

I would thoroughly agree with listing fellowship of the Royal Society after the subject's name in the lead, as the Royal Society is the UK's national academy for the sciences, and its fellowship is recognised as the preeminent distinction for academics in this field, like the FBA for humanities and social sciences. The FRHistS and FSA are likewise distinctions conferred for merit in their respective fields, as are other memberships in other learned societies. However, FRSA is one of those "distinctions" which can be held by almost anybody willing to work out how to fill in the application forms and pay the membership fee. Others in the category are Fellow of the Royal Geographical Society and Fellow of the Royal Asiatic Society. Many holders of these distinctions are in fact eminent scholars, but there are also many people who join on the weakest of grounds just out of vanity. It is specifically the FRSA which I am highlighting here, not worthier distinctions such as FRS, FBA, FRHistS, and FSA.--Oxonian2006 (talk) 18:48, 9 May 2011 (UTC)

Is the issue just the one, or is there a list of not-so-appropriate memberships? If the problem is primarily the one, then perhaps a footnote or a parenthetical comment could be added. If it's a long list, then we should probably think about a supplemental essay page. WhatamIdoing (talk) 05:14, 12 May 2011 (UTC)

Spaces between dashes for birth/death dates

Is the convention that there should be a space between the dash that separates the birth and death in the lead (e.g. John Smith (1711 – 1798), not John Smith (1711–1798). At present, there are 2 examples showing no spaces. Should these be converted to "with spaces", and should some text be added to the MOS to indicate that spaces are preferred? Eldumpo (talk) 08:02, 13 May 2011 (UTC)

The examples follow the general MoS, that dashes are unspaced unless there is a space in the items being separated. So John Smith (1711–1798) is correct, but if a month were known, the endash would be spaced, as John Smith (August 1711 – 1798). See MOS:DASH and, specifically relevant to your query, MOS:DOB. cheers, Struway2 (talk) 09:20, 13 May 2011 (UTC)

Thanks, that clears things, although I think it could be useful if there is a link to MOS:DOB from the relevant paargraph of this article. Eldumpo (talk) 09:55, 13 May 2011 (UTC)

There is: see Wikipedia:Manual of Style (biographies)#Opening paragraph point 2. cheers, Struway2 (talk) 10:37, 13 May 2011 (UTC)

Cousins?

The following was recently added to the 'Marriage and family' section of the Aaron Burr article:

"Reverend Andrew Eliot was married to a cousin of Aaron Burr and, in a series of weekly letters from January 1777 to August 1778, he detailed the extent of spy participation by Thaddeus Burr (a first cousin of Aaron Burr). These missives were inherited by noted Long Island television and radio personality Bernadine Fawcett."

My first thought is to revert this edit because the info about one of Burr's non-notable cousins adds nothing (in my opinion) to the article. I found no guidelines or policies about this kind of thing. Thoughts, editors? WCCasey (talk) 03:45, 15 May 2011 (UTC)

I would tend to remove the information as unsourced and with no clear relation to the article's subject. Probably best to discuss it on the article's talk page.--Kotniski (talk) 08:23, 16 May 2011 (UTC)

WP:SURNAME and Siouxsie Sioux

WP:SURNAME says, People who are best known by a pseudonym should be subsequently referred to by their pseudonymous surnames, unless they do not include a recognizable surname in the pseudonym (i.e. Madonna, Snoop Dogg, The Edge), in which case the whole pseudonym is used. I am curious about the application of this to the artist Siouxsie Sioux. To me it is clear that 'Sioux' is her pseudonymous surname and should be used. Any thoughts? Elizium23 (talk) 19:51, 18 May 2011 (UTC)

Clarify OPENPARA

Is naming someone in the opening sentence by their nationality like, John Doe is an English/Irish/French/German blah blah against the guideline namely Ethnicity or sexuality should not generally be emphasized in the opening unless it is relevant to the subject's notability. Mo ainm~Talk 08:28, 26 May 2011 (UTC)

No. Ethnicity and nationality/country of origin are not the same things. What the guideline means is that we should not write, for example, "John Doe is a black English..." unless the fact he's black is relevant to his notability. -- Necrothesp (talk) 08:37, 26 May 2011 (UTC)

Thanks, but in your example is English not an ethnic group? Mo ainm~Talk 08:48, 26 May 2011 (UTC)

Not really. Used in this way it's someone who was born in England, who could be of any ethnic group. -- Necrothesp (talk) 11:59, 26 May 2011 (UTC)

It is also useful to give some context of the part of the world where the person was notable. Many articles are about people who are "famous" in one country only. Remember that Wikipedia has readers around the world (even just the English language one) and many an editor may consider "famous" might be totally unknown to most readers. Even if someone was born somewhere else or is of a different ethnic group, saying they are "English" would give a quick context of where they did their notable things right in the lead. Very useful when dealing with multple people who share a common name, for example, to make sure you are reading the right one. W Nowicki (talk) 16:16, 26 May 2011 (UTC)

Thanks for the clarification. Mo ainm~Talk 16:17, 26 May 2011 (UTC)

Infoboxes

I've been cleaning up a lot of biography pages lately, and I've noticed that very few have infoboxes. Is there any sort of consensus as to when Template:Infobox person should and shouldn't be used? --Kerowyn ^{Leave a note} 18:17, 12 June 2011 (UTC)

There is not yet a consensus whether infoboxes should ever be used. Many of us don't like them, particularly not the long infoboxes that tend to completely unbalance the article. -- Necrothesp (talk) 20:06, 12 June 2011 (UTC)

I generally like to use infoboxes for a concise look at important facts. If done well, they also add some visual interest to the page. To help avoid the over-long variety filled with irrelevant information, try selecting from the more specific templates on Wikipedia:WikiProject Biography/Infoboxes. You may still, however, need to add or delete fields to yield the best infobox for a given article. WCCasey (talk) 20:59, 12 June 2011 (UTC)

Common Titles (Mr., Mrs., Dr.)

I just removed instances of "Mr.", "Mrs.", and "Dr." from a lengthy list of board members of an international institution ( http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Forum_of_Federations&action=historysubmit&diff=433953618&oldid=426656123 ). They are commonly used in academia/journalism in some dialects, like Indian English, but are not as widespread in academic/journalistic American English or British English. Is there an official ruling for when the terms can be used? samwaltz (talk) 22:39, 12 June 2011 (UTC)