Talk:Thuja occidentalis

Plants Unassessed

	Plants portal This article is within the scope of WikiProject Plants, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of plants and botany on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.PlantsWikipedia:WikiProject PlantsTemplate:WikiProject Plantsplant articles
???	This article has not yet received a rating on Wikipedia's content assessment scale.
???	This article has not yet received a rating on the project's importance scale.

Cartier, scurvy, etc

The statement "The foliage is rich in vitamin C; Native Americans and early European explorers used it to treat scurvy" from the FEIS gives the Silvics manual as its source. However, the latter says "the French explorer Cartier learned from the Indians how to use the tree's foliage to treat scurvy" which says it was just one European expedition (which as far as I know is the truth; Samuel de Champlain sought out this remedy but did not find it). Furthermore, it is not clear whether "Indians" is sufficiently specific, as one of the issues is whether Cartier was meeting the same group as de Champlain (St. Lawrence Iroquoians, Hurons or Iroquois). There is an extensive literature on this subject (just do a google scholar search for "Jacques Cartier scurvy"). Unfortunately, most of it is not online at all, or only available with a subscription. So I'm a little shaky on the subtleties ("has been widely asserted to be aneda" versus "was aneda" versus "probably was aneda" etc). But I do object to removing the link to aneda (which is the right article for lengthy discussions) or with watering down "Jacques Cartier" to "early European explorers". Kingdon (talk) 15:00, 23 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Thuja occidentalis (Arbor vitae): A Review of its Pharmaceutical, Pharmacological and Clinical Properties.

Levine alledges that the study, located here is about Homeopathy. The study appears to be about natural medicine. Can someone review? PouponOnToast (talk) 16:59, 23 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I have the same concerns; the article summary mentions in passing that T. occidentalis is used in homeopathy but doesn't give any indication that the article actually contains information about any such homeopathic uses. This could be a case of homeopathy riding on the coattails of herbal treatments which themselves may or may not have some basis in fact. Unfortunately I don't have access to the original article so can't verify one way or the other. MrDarwin (talk) 17:05, 23 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

That is a good point. I guess without the full article text, we can't say for sure. -- Levine2112 ^discuss 17:38, 23 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

As it turns out, I have access to the full article after all. I have only skimmed it but it does not appear to discuss any homeopathic uses of Thuja occidentalis; the uses and clinical studies the article reviews are all non-homeopathic. As I have stressed elsewhere, "herbal remedies" and "alternative medicine" are not synonymous with "homeopathy" and great care must be taken to distinguish between them. MrDarwin (talk) 18:27, 23 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I guess this is an important warning that it is hasty to say something says something unless you have actually read the thing yourself. PouponOnToast (talk) 18:30, 23 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

EVCAM is not a reliable nor authoritative source. The reference should be removed. Jefffire (talk) 17:03, 23 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Disagree. Regardless, PubMed is. -- Levine2112 ^discuss 17:38, 23 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

No, pubmed is a database. It contains both reliable and unreliable sources. Jefffire (talk) 19:21, 23 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I thought I had found this holy grail with the book "Medicinal Plants of the World", written by two professors (one a botanist, the other a pharmaceutical biologist) and which has been favorably reviewed in the botanical literature--yes, it clearly and explicitly states for several species "X is used in homeopathic remedies", and no, it doesn't make any comments favorable to homeopathy--but when I tried adding that reference to the Thuja occidentalis article, even that was shot down by User:ScienceApologist as having been published by a "fringe publishing press". I have to conclude that there are no possible sources that he and the other editors will consider reliable. MrDarwin (talk) 03:23, 25 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I have to admit, MrDarwin, this is the closest I've seen to a decent rational for inclusion. However, Timber Press is realy quite parochial and doesn't do much to establish the prominence of the homeopathic remedies of interest. In this instance, I'm not trying to disparage Timber Press, but rather I'm trying to make it clear that we need something a bit more mainstream so that we can nail down the prominence of this connected idea to the subject of the article. ScienceApologist (talk) 09:43, 25 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I know nothing about Timber Press and have no comment about it. Could you tell us about how many plants would have "X is used in homeopathic remedies" added to them due to the acceptance of such notation in Timber Press, so we can evaluate the notability of any individual mention? For instance, if Timber Press lists, say, 500 plants as used in Homeopathy, it's not in any way a reliable source for establishing notability. Additionally, I assume there is a massive amount of other information in the Timber Press work that is not incorporated into this article - to ignore however many paragraphs of information but put one sentence about homeopathy in reeks of undue weight. PouponOnToast (talk) 14:35, 25 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

RfC on homeopathy

Template:RFCsci

Reason: A large debate with no consensus has errupted over the mention of this plant's usage in preparation of homeopathic remedies. While nearly all editors agree (from what I can see) that homeopathy is pseudoscience and quackery, the dispute over whether or not to include a neutrally-worded, sourced statement regarding this species' use continues. Proponents of such a statement have provided several references that they believe meet WP:RS (specifically the ref's included in this edit and diff) that other editors have regarded as unreliable diff (see Talk:Thuja and Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Plants#Thuja and homeopathy for such discussion). Opponents to inclusion of these statements cite WP:FRINGE and WP:UNDUE frequently as their reasons for removing said information diff. Input from outside, uninvolved parties would be greatly appreciated for some perspective. --Rkitko ^(talk) 03:22, 25 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Adding one additional citation for consideration. This citation from Rheumatology, one of the most highly regarded journals in the world, published by Oxford University Press, has likewise been rejected. It specifically discusses over 30 homeopathic remedies used to treat Rheumatoid Arthritis. The conclusions of the study are not pertinent. A randomized controlled trial of homeopathy in rheumatoid arthritis

Statements by involved editors

Support inclusion - I suppose I'm involved as a participant in the plant project, but I haven't been directly involved in the argument. Anyways, it seems very obvious to me that information about homeopathic use should be included. The sources are clearly sufficient to show that people in significant enough numbers are or were using the plant as a homeopathic "remedy". Whether or not this has any scientific significance is irrelevant- it's simply a cultural element that should be included in the article. I have mentioned that several plant articles, such as Ailanthus altissima, give extensive treatments on use in Chinese medicine, which in many cases is equally dubious from a scientific view, but is regardless important to mention because literally millions of people still buy into it. Another good example would be ginseng- its purported medical effects have not been demonstrated scientifically, but it would be a simple matter of censorship to remove references to its use as a medicinal root. The references supplied are most certainly reliable, and I believe that only someone with an agenda could deny that. DJLayton4 (talk) 04:09, 25 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Comment: The fact that homeopathy is pseudoscience is only relevant to establishing that we need to consider fringe guidelines. The exclusion of the idea is not done because it the idea is pseudoscience. The reason that traditional Chinese medicine is reasonable to include in many articles is because we have mainstream, independent sources that indicate it is prominent to the plant itself. Indeed, in traditional Chinese medicine, substantial amounts of the substances are employed: enough to make TCM practioners in many cases some of the major consumers of the substances and, in the case of endangered plants, problematically so. This is in stark contrast to homeopathy which use vanishingly small amounts of the substance and so, peculiarly, the prominence of the homeopathic use of the plant cannot be done by evaluating the content of the remedy. However, even though this is the case, all that is needed to establish the prominence of homeopathy to this or any other plant is a mainstream independent source which asserts the prominence of homeopathic preparations that involve the plant. Unfortunately, the closest we've come as of yet was a reference book from a (relatively) small publishing press in Portland, Oregon that does not establish prominence. ScienceApologist (talk) 09:54, 25 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Comment: Timber Press is a highly-regarded (and not so small) publisher that specializes in horticultural and botanical books, but what is more relevant is that the book was written by two university professors who are scientists (a botanist and a botanist, pharmaceutical biologist), it is decidedly not pro-homeopathy, and the book has been favorably reviewed in the botanical literature. I am at a complete loss as to what ScienceApologist would possibly accept as a "maintstream independent source". ScienceApologist, have you even seen this book? MrDarwin (talk) 14:08, 25 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Comment: It seems to me that SceinceApologist is not a plant person, which is fine of course. But honestly, anyone with plants some how factoring into their professional lives, study or hobby can confirm that Timber Press is most certainly not a fringe publisher. Probably the world's most respected horticulturalist, Michael Dirr from the University of Georgia, has published numerous titles with them. Simply browsing their website[1] can demonstrate the number and quality of their books. They also have a .uk website, despite being an American company, and I don't think that many "fringe" publishers would have such a broad customer base. DJLayton4 (talk) 14:21, 25 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Need a reliable mainstream independent source asserting the prominence of homeopathic remedies to the subject of this article before inclusion can be made. I have explained the rationale for this here and here. ScienceApologist (talk) 09:45, 25 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Comment Absolutely absurd. First you reasonably ask for a reference. Several are provided and you ultimately decide they're not worthy by saying the publishing company is fringe. I provide evidence to the contrary that Timber Press is frequently used for academic books by top scientists in botany, which you of course respond to by claiming it's too small (above). Have you taken a look at the publishing source of the journal you also said was "fringe" (Evidence Based Complementary and Alternative Medicine)? Bloody Oxford University Press. I and others have noted that such sources are completely reliable and not fringe and that this attempt to "move the goalposts" when excellent references have been provided is beyond frustrating. What's more is you've been continually edit warring on this article by removing referenced information before consensus was reached regarding the content. --Rkitko ^(talk) 13:25, 25 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Support inclusion Despite comments by the opponents to such statements, I believe the information is carefully worded, well-sourced, and presented without pushing any POV. This crusade against mentioning homeopathic uses that are well-sourced must stop. --Rkitko ^(talk) 13:25, 25 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Support inclusion, cautiously One of the stated goals of Wikipedia:WikiProject Plants is to "describe botanical properties, distribution, multiplication, usage (medicine, food, etc.), botanical history, cultivation information" (emphasis added). Commentary on homeopathic uses is relevant in the context of medicinal, ethnobotanical, cultural, and other uses. Homeopathy is widely accepted and its use of plants and plant names is relevant to thousands, and possibly millions, of people. It may be a pseudoscience, but it is a widespread and significant one. I have no doubt that some homeopathic users will come to Wikipedia looking for information on a plant name that they have encountered through a homeopathic "remedy" (if I can personalize the issue a bit, my sister-in-law has no idea what Arnica is outside of homeopathy, and could not begin to tell me what it did or how or why it supposedly worked). By including a mention of the homeopathic uses of plants in the various species articles, users will be guided via a link to the Wikipedia article on homeopathy, where they can find out more about that subject (including that there is no medical or scientific support for it). What I am not arguing for is the inclusion of homeopathic uses without the inclusion of other uses. On the other hand, a blanket policy that any mention of homeopathic uses of plant species, in any context, must be expunged is an extreme POV and tantamount to censorship. Numerous non-homeopathic botanical references manage to mention homeopathic uses of plants without endorsing them, and I don't understand why Wikipedia articles about plant species can't do likewise. I could add several more as I have a good library at my disposal, but after the removal of the "Medicinal Plants of the World" it seems a rather pointless use of my time as I suspect none of them would be deemed acceptable. MrDarwin (talk) 15:30, 25 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Statements by RfC respondents