Welcome to the humanities section
of the Wikipedia reference desk.

Select a section:

WP:RD/H

Want a faster answer?

Main page: Help searching Wikipedia

How can I get my question answered?

Select the section of the desk that best fits the general topic of your question (see the navigation column to the right).
Post your question to only one section, providing a short header that gives the topic of your question.
Type '~~~~' (that is, four tilde characters) at the end – this signs and dates your contribution so we know who wrote what and when.
Don't post personal contact information – it will be removed. Any answers will be provided here.
Please be as specific as possible, and include all relevant context – the usefulness of answers may depend on the context.
Note:
- We don't answer (and may remove) questions that require medical diagnosis or legal advice.
- We don't answer requests for opinions, predictions or debate.
- We don't do your homework for you, though we'll help you past the stuck point.
- We don't conduct original research or provide a free source of ideas, but we'll help you find information you need.

Ready? Ask a new question!

How do I answer a question?

Main page: Wikipedia:Reference desk/Guidelines

The best answers address the question directly, and back up facts with wikilinks and links to sources. Do not edit others' comments and do not give any medical or legal advice.

August 13

Gorsuch Roberts Alito Kavanaugh

Are these United States Supreme Court Justices adherents of the Jesuit Society?Rich (talk) 03:21, 13 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

As a graduate of a Jesuit university who is not Catholic, the notion of "adherents" seems strange to me in this context. None of these men are priests, and the Society of Jesus does not accept laymen as members. Gorsuch attended Columbia, Yale and Oxford. None of those universities are Jesuit. Roberts attended Harvard. Not Jesuit. Alito attended Princeton and Yale. Neither is Jesuit. Kavanaugh attended Yale. Not Jesuit. There are about 27 Jesuit universities in the United States. None of these Supreme Court justices attended one of them. Cullen328 (talk) 07:58, 13 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I hope this is not an invitation to debate. The notion of "adherent" (rather than "member") of the Society of Jesus is not particularly meaningful. Attending a Jesuit-run college-preparatory school (as Gorsuch and Kavanaugh did) is not a kind of brainwashing that turns one into an "adherent". --Lambiam 08:50, 13 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

There are allegations that "Amy Coney Barrett, John Roberts, Clarence Thomas, Brett Kavanaugh, and Samuel Alito either belong to or are close to members of Opus Dei". Opus Dei is different from the Jesuits. Pope Francis is a Jesuit and, in 2022, moved the position of Opus Dei within the church. Both organizations were founded by Spaniards but with centuries of difference. Opus Dei has a place for secular married and single men and women. Jesuits include only single men (but for, perhaps, Joanna of Austria, Princess of Portugal), most of them priests.

--Error (talk) 09:53, 13 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Leonard Leo also is or used to be in Opus Dei. I have learned from your answers that I possibly should have asked instead if the justices I referred to were members of Opus Dei.Rich (talk) 02:07, 16 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Sounds like it. Just to note that the Jesuits and Opus Dei generally don't get on at all well. Johnbod (talk) 16:52, 16 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Is that personal observation?Rich (talk) 19:33, 16 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

See Controversies_about_Opus_Dei#Historical_opposition_from_Jesuits e.g. ---Sluzzelin talk 21:33, 16 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

If enough of the criticism of Opus Dei in the article you linked is valid, the organization seems capable of and likely to decide to groom and train people of high ability to infiltrate the U.S. Judiciary to make rulings that Opus Dei favors.Rich (talk) 18:06, 17 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

And Leonard Leo is known to have facilitated this. --Lambiam 22:13, 17 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Note that Neil Gorsuch may have been raised Catholic but he now attends an Episcopal church and was married in a non-Catholic ceremony. I'm fairly sure it would be very weird for him to be remain in Opus Dei let alone to have some sort of continuing official connection with the Jesuits. Nil Einne (talk) 14:41, 18 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Choice-of-court clauses in US federal courts

Special:Random led me to Carnival Cruise Lines, Inc. v. Shute, in which the plaintiffs sued in one state despite a contract requiring them to bring any suits in a different state. When US federal law is relevant, if you violate a forum selection clause as these folks did, do you generally lay yourself open to a counter-lawsuit for breach of contract, or do you "merely" lay yourself open to having your lawsuit dismissed? Forum selection clause#Effect of breach says it is theoretically possible to sue for damages for bringing proceedings in breach of a jurisdiction clause, examples are rare, but the source discusses English law. Nyttend (talk) 08:03, 13 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I cannot cite relevant cases, but it stands to reason that when one party to a contract causes significant damages to the other party by voluntarily disregarding their contractual obligations, they thereby make themselves liable to legal action. I can't think of a reason why this should be otherwise here, unless for some reason the forum selection clause on the contract is null and void by law. --Lambiam 08:59, 13 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

There is often a good faith dispute as to the validity of a forum selection clause (as was the case in Carnival Cruise Lines v. Shute), and the appropriate remedy for the choice of an inappropriate venue is either transfer to the appropriate venue or dismissal without prejudice. I suppose that a court might be willing to grant some kind of damages for a bad faith choice of an inappropriate venue, but I've never seen that granted or even asked for in a U.S. court. John M Baker (talk) 22:24, 13 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Endorsements

I have just noticed that there is a full category of Category:United States presidential election endorsements. On first sight, they seem to be a list of "I will vote for X in the upcoming elections!" said by notable people. Just to be clear (I'm not from the US and know little about its laws), is a political endorsement in the US really just that? I mean, is it something formal or legally binding on the one who said it, part of some legal requirement, or a relevant aspect of the electoral process? Or is it just trivia like a "List of notable Star Trek fans"? Cambalachero (talk) 15:19, 13 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

There is no possibility of these pronouncements being legally binding. The word "endorsement" means literally "writing on the back." That is what happens when someone "endorses" a cheque. An endorsement on an insurance policy is a change of the terms and conditions. That may originally have been done by writing on the back, but was often effected by the use of stickers modifying the standard wording. See political endorsement. 91.234.214.10 (talk) 16:17, 13 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, I have seen the stub, and it's not of much help, because it's that, a stub. Cambalachero (talk) 16:23, 13 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Back to the original question: No, these endorsements have no legal standing. A person who has some fame (politician, actor, etc) may announce publicly that he/she supports a certain candidate (party, or policy), as a means of encouraging other people to support the same candidate. It is just as easy to endorse someone as it is to change your mind and un-endorse them. DOR (ex-HK) (talk) 17:28, 13 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Cambalachero, back to the original question: some of these are more significant, e.g. List of United States presidential election endorsements made by The New York Times. NYT consistently gives its reasoning for its endorsements, and they often get mentioned in other publications, e.g. this from CNN; it's not merely saying "I'll support X". Also, pre-1960s primary endorsement pages are much more significant, since these date from a time when the party officeholders in question were much more significant. Today, primary elections functionally choose the party's candidate, and the party convention is generally a rubberstamp and a chance for the party to get publicity, but in that era, the convention made the real decisions, and officeholders such as the ones mentioned in Endorsements in the 1920 Republican Party presidential primaries were significant because they were a large share of the convention, and (perhaps, I don't know) might have been bound to their endorsements. This is radically different from List of Barack Obama 2012 presidential campaign endorsements, which is basically what you describe on first sight. Nyttend (talk) 22:02, 13 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

August 14

Where was Rochambeau paroled?

Donatien-Marie-Joseph de Vimeur, vicomte de Rochambeau was a prisoner on parole in England after the Surrender of Cap Français. Where was he paroled? I ask as it forms part of the frame for Q's short story "The Monkey-Flower". Thank you, DuncanHill (talk) 00:22, 14 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I found one source (Frenchempire.net) that says he was held in Norman Cross Prison. Blueboar (talk) 01:22, 14 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I found this and this which say he was paroled to Moretonhampstead. DuncanHill (talk) 22:38, 21 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

What does it mean to be "childlike" in a religious context?

Here are a couple of examples of what I'm talking about:

In Matthew 18:3 and Luke 18:17, Jesus says "Unless you become as little children, you shall not enter the kingdom of heaven." and "Whoever doesn't receive the kingdom of heaven as a little child shall not enter." respectively.
To quote a Wikipedia article, "Kali likes devotees who have childlike qualities in them."

One take I could run with is that being "as a little child" means being humble and approaching a holy figure with what some would call a beginner's mind. (i.e. with curiosity and open-mindedness, and without arrogance or prejudice) After all, in Matthew 18:4, Jesus continues; "Therefore, whoever humbles themselves as this little child, the same is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven." On the other hand, the Kali article also says "To be a child of Kāli, Rāmprasād asserts, is to be denied of earthly delights and pleasures. Kāli is said to refrain from giving that which is expected. To the devotee, it is perhaps her very refusal to do so that enables her devotees to reflect on dimensions of themselves and of reality that go beyond the material world."

The part about denying oneself earthly delights reminds me of the following Gospel passages:

"If you come up to me, you should deny yourself, take your cross and follow after me. Whoever finds their own life shall lose it, whoever loses their own life for my sake shall find it. For what should one give in exchange for their life? For what would one profit if they gain the world, but forfeit their life? What should one give in exchange for their life?" — Mark 8:34-36, Matthew 16:24-26, Luke 9:23-25
"Whoever doesn't take their cross and follow after me is unworthy of me." — Matthew 10:38, Luke 14:27
"Whoever doesn't renounce everything they have can't be my disciple." — Luke 14:33
"Whoever loves their life shall lose it. Whoever hates their life in this world shall keep it unto life eternal." — John 12:25

Asides from Christianity and Hinduism, are there any other religions or belief systems where divine figures are said to favor believers who are childlike? – MrPersonHumanGuy (talk) 20:10, 14 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Realistically, the language of Christianity is frequently and actively debated. It is based on multiple translations of ancient texts, often done with political goals. We are now largely stuck with pseudo-Shakespearean language, such as "Unless you become as little children". Nobody talks like that outside religion, so nobody can say precisely what it means. Some pastors and ministers will claim to know. It's up to you who you choose to believe. HiLo48 (talk) 01:58, 15 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

It sounds like an encouragement to be mindless. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 03:52, 15 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Most little children know their own minds a lot better than most adults know theirs, in my experience. My favourite example is a toddler trying to stand up and walk. After the first 50 unsuccessful attempts, do they go "Looks like it's never gonna happen, so I may as well just give up"? Hardly. That's adult thinking, not child thinking. -- Jack of Oz ^{[pleasantries]} 07:20, 15 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

You ask two questions with different answers ("what does it mean" and "which religions say this"), and while I can't easily answer the second, I can provide resources for the first. Go to Matthew 18 or Luke 18 from the "Christian Classics Ethereal Library", which hosts a great number of resources, including several commentary series. In the page's upper right, just below the gear icon, is a dropdown (every time I load the site, the label is different) offering several options, including "Commentaries". Click this, and you'll be prompted to pick several Protestant commentaries that have sought to explain Christ's meaning in this passage. Meanwhile, there are plenty of recent translations with recent English, e.g. the HCSB says "unless you are converted and become like children, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven". Nyttend (talk) 07:35, 15 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Speculation: It seems to me that referring to children in this context implies that children "believe" in absolute and ideal properties:

Omnipotence, omniscience, perfection, truth, justice, protection, ...

Adults do not assume that a random human - a spouse, a neighbour, a political candidate - possesses any of these characteristics. An adult person probably must retreat to some infantile idealism to perceive a God in all this mess. A tall order and, on occasion, I envy those who can. --Cookatoo.ergo.ZooM (talk) 16:25, 16 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I feel that the word you are all looking for is 'innocence', and all that entails. MinorProphet (talk) 13:17, 22 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

August 19

Jean Bottéro on Ebla

Where did Bottéro write on the Eblaite Ya? "Religion in Ancient Mesopotamia" and "Ancestor of the West" gave no immediate ctrl-f results. Temerarius (talk) 02:35, 19 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Ebla–biblical controversy suggests you might be able to find something in Mesopotamia: Writing, Reasoning, and the Gods (1995). GalacticShoe (talk) 04:41, 19 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

August 21

Appealing jury verdict before sentencing not allowed?

[1] Trump was convicted in NY a month or two ago, with sentencing scheduled for September 18. He is trying to get sentencing delayed til after the Nov. election, saying he plans to appeal as soon as sentencing is handed down.

Question: does something stop him from appealing before there is a sentence? Appeals are about arguing that the trial court made mistakes amirite? And those would have been made during the trial itself, regardless of the sentence. Trump still has a request pending to have the trial court throw out the charges on immunity grounds, but if that happens, he could drop his appeal.

IANAL, not seeking advice, Trump can hire his own lawyers bla bla bla. 2601:644:8581:75B0:0:0:0:C030 (talk) 22:27, 21 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The particulars could depend on the laws of New York state. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 01:01, 22 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

In general, a final judgment is required before a party can bring an appeal. There are exceptions, under which a party can bring an interlocutory appeal. But those are limited exceptions for certain kinds of appeals. To appeal a case as a whole, Trump needs a final judgment, and for a criminal case finding guilt, a sentence is required for finality. John M Baker (talk) 23:25, 23 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

August 22

1967, Can this criminal incidence corroborated?

Question is:How far incidences of 1967 can be corroborated through news in then news media or RS books specially about any alleged misbehavior against women?

Naxalbari uprising: 1967 an ultra left (communist) violent farmer/ tribal agitation was going on in West Bengal state, India.

1969 April 6, A scheduled musical night in Kolkata (Draft) (earlier spelling Calcutta) went haywire with ensued violence that allegedly included en masse misbehavior against women. The violence and the controversy was further politicized.

An investigative journalist's report that I got translated from a Wikipedian about 1969 April 6, incidence goes as below.

.. According to weekly Manus माणस dated 17th May; a session of robbing, firing, rapes, murders etc completed with the farmer riots in 1967. The offenders were arrested. Fortunate for them, Jyoti Basu became Deputy Chief Minister and Home Minister in 1969 and released all these men. These men were the organizers of the 6th April event.^[1] ..

The investigative journalist probably is speaking of the 1967 Naxalbari uprising. In cases of crime corroborating investigative report remains difficult and 1967 - 1969 is too old story. But still How far incidences of 1967 can be corroborated through news in then news media or RS books specially about any alleged misbehavior against women? Bookku (talk) 13:25, 22 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I can think of no other way of doing so other than to research deeply all the available records from the era dealing the subject and see what emerges. A considerable task, perhaps suited to someone who intends to write a book on the topic.

Given the nature of the events, it is likely that much was not published in newspapers (which have no brief to be comprehensive and which don't like to say what people don't want to read), or stated publicly by officials (who may have similar self-interested scruples), so official reports, perhaps not published at the time, may have more. In the UK and other countries there is the Thirty year rule, which annually causes the release of previously sequestered documents that journalists and others can study. Is there a similar procedure in India? {The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.195} 94.1.209.45 (talk) 16:08, 23 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for your inputs. As you say the topic would necessitates some deep dive.

As such I suppose Naxalbari uprising (violent communism) is reasonably reported and academically studied topic.

For example " 'The Goondas' Towards the reconstruction of Calcutta Underworld" by Das Suranjan, Ray Jayanta K. (Department of History University of Calcutta) 1996, explains linkages and distinguishing factors between common criminality and political violence. Das and Ray seem to have taken note of crime of some criminals mentioned by above said investigative journalist, same time conspicuously silent about 1969 criminal incidence.

Another problem for that era is most sources though of Indian origin are in Western and US libraries and not available on Wikipedia library or google books. Deep dive seem to need some support from who have physical access to those libraries too. Bookku (talk) 05:08, 24 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Hi Bookku. I'm not sure exactly what is your question. What would be the linkage between Naxalbari uprising and the April 6 event? Surely none, and what is stated from Manoos would have been a fringe view at the time. --Soman (talk) 12:04, 26 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

References

^ Majgoankar, Shrikant, ed. (17 May 1969). "शापित द्रौपदी" (PDF) (in Marathi). No. 51 (51 ed.). Rajhans Prakashan Maharashtra India. p. 14. Retrieved 23 December 2021.

August 25

Are these the same people?

Is Azadeh (Shahnameh) the same person as Āzādvar-e Changi?

The former I'm not familiar with, but the latter is usually mentioned as the handful of known Sassanian musicians: Āzādvar-e Changi, Bamshad, Nagisa (Nakisa), Ramtin, Sarkash (also Sargis or Sarkas) and Barbad. I know Āzādvar-e Changi's name is given as simply Azad sometimes, but I'm not exactly sure who they are. It would not be too suprising if they were the same, since Nagisa and Barbad, for instance, are only really known from colorful depictions in later literature—more focused on the story than their musical importance/history, which seems to be the case for Azadeh (Shahnameh). Aza24 (talk) 00:54, 25 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

According to Azadeh (Shahnameh), she was associated in story with Bahram-e Gur aka Bahram V (who lived 400–438), while according to Nagisa (harpist), Āzādvar-e Changi aka Āzād seved in the court of Khosrow II (ca. 570–628), so assuming these facts are accurate the two cannot have been the same person as they lived nearly 200 years apart.

However, since Shahnameh was written around 1000, about 400–600 years after the two allegedly lived (if they really existed at all), and is openly based partly on myths and legends, its reliability as to dates and identities is presumably questionable.

I am reminded of the popular legend of the Trojan war refugee Aeneas and his famous love affair with the Carthaginian Queen Dido, which ignores the fact that plausible dates for the two place their lives around 400 years apart. {The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.195} 94.1.209.45 (talk) 06:05, 26 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

August 26

Kish 1924

I'm having trouble finding "Kish, 1924, 799 Obv. 1 16." The reference found in S Langdon's Babylonian Menologies, page 111. I tried "Report on the excavation of the "A" Cemetary at Kish, Mesopotamia" by Ernest Mackay 1925-1931, where the page numbers don't go that high. Temerarius (talk) 16:45, 26 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

If I follow you, you're thinking that that's a page reference, but it's actually a reference to an archaeological find from Kish excavated (or perhaps catalogued) in 1924. In this paper by S. Langdon, we read on page 70 that "Kish 1924-799 (excavated by the writer) is the upper right corner of Tablet XV of HURRA = hubullu", whatever that means. "Obv.", the same paper makes clear, stands for "Obverse". There's a diagram of that tablet on page 71. --Antiquary (talk) 20:34, 26 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Great! Thanks. The detail I was seeking was on page 74. I wish archive.org wouldn't restrict download of these old papers that are in the public domain now. https://archive.org/download/fieldmuseumoxfor28fiel/fieldmuseumoxfor28fiel.pdf Here's another by Langdon on Kish with some interesting finds. The early pictographic script has comic book-like panel divisions, like the undeciphered "bonus" Deir Alla inscriptions. There's an ancient solid copper frog, which I don't think I've ever seen before. And by ovens, they've got cup holders like Macalister's Gezer's High place. Different from cup and ring marks.

Temerarius (talk) 01:39, 27 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

dig: Amenmope's tomb

Who dug up the place where Amenemope (pharaoh)'s masks were found? Is the publication available online? Temerarius (talk) 20:53, 26 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

From the Section Burial in the article you link, "His undisturbed tomb was rediscovered by French Egyptologists Pierre Montet and Georges Goyon in April 1940, just a month before the Nazi invasion of France. Montet had to stop his excavation until the end of World War II, then resumed it in 1946 and later published his findings in 1958. . . . On the mummy were found two gilt funerary masks, two pectorals, necklaces, bracelets, rings and a cloisonné collar. Four of these items bore the name of Psusennes I.[18][19] The funerary masks depict the king as young, although Goyon stated that at the moment of discovery the masks had an expression of suffering and pleading, later softened after restoration.[18] The mummy and funerary goods are now in Cairo Museum."

The Article's References cross reference to its Bibliography, which details various volumes, including Goyon's 1987 La Découverte des trésors de Tanis. Perséa. ISBN 2-906427-01-2, though not Montet's 1958 publications. {The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.195} 94.1.209.45 (talk) 00:16, 27 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

August 27

What the Maid Saw and The Love Song of J. Alfred Prufrock

Years ago I read about the English translation of Yasutaka Tsutsui's novel What the Maid Saw. The translation was notorious because at one point, there is a quotation from T. S. Eliot's poem "The Love Song of J. Alfred Prufrock", but the translator seemingly did not recognize the quotation and instead translated Tsutsui's Japanese translation back into English. Eliot's original text read as follows:

I grow old ... I grow old...

I shall wear the bottoms of my trousers rolled.

Shall I part my hair behind? Do I dare to eat a peach?

I shall wear white flannel trousers, and walk upon the beach.

I have heard the mermaids singing, each to each.

I do not think that they will sing to me.

But the English translation of the novel rendered the text as:

The years are taking their toll.

It’s time to roll up the cuffs of my pants—

Time to part my hair from the back—

Time to eat peaches.

I put on my white flannel pants and walked on the beach.

I heard mermaids singing to each other—

Mermaids who would never sing out to me.

However, I seem to recall reading later that this (i.e. the English translator not recognizing the poem and translating it on his own) was an urban legend. And, indeed, I can hardly find any references to this online. One of the few I can find (https://aclanthology.org/1997.mtsummit-workshop.6.pdf) cites it to "a 'clipping' (undated) from the New Yorker", that is, one of the "snippets containing amusing errors, unintended meanings or badly mixed metaphors ... used as filler items, accompanied by a witty retort", which doesn't seem to be a particularly reliable source.

So my question is: Did the English translation of What the Maid Saw actually include the mistranslated quote from "Prufrock", and if so, was there any explanation other than the translator not recognizing the poem? -- Metropolitan90 (talk) 07:32, 27 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Urban legend, I think. According to the New Yorker clipping quoted in the Helmreich article you link to, the translator, Adam Kabat, renders Tsutsui's Japanese as "Katsumi had come across the image of the peach in a poem by an American poet. The years are taking their toll [etc.]". But in this 2011 reprint of the original 1990 Kabat translation we have something very different:

Katsumi had come across the image of the peach in a bit of verse by an American poet.

The poem also used images of mermaids, the beach and a necktie, but it was the symbolic line about eating peaches that had left the most vivid impression on Katsumi...

There is no quotation from the poem there. I wondered whether the 2011 reprint might have corrected this passage from the 1990 original, but only a 1990 copyright date is given for it, so seemingly not.

Incidentally, we discussed double translations here 13 years ago. --Antiquary (talk) 09:12, 27 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The 1990 edition is available on Archive.org. It does have the "The years are taking their toll..." version on page 82. See here (registration required). DuncanHill (talk) 10:19, 27 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I rather suspect the hand of Valerie Eliot in the removal. DuncanHill (talk) 10:22, 27 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

"Whiter than white cocaine" (or similar) British soldiers song of WW1

In Graves book "Goodbye to all that" he mentions a song that soldiers sang, I translate it back to English, it's "Whiter than white cocaine", "Brighter than white cocaine" or something similar.

Song lyrics/info will; be appreciated. 2A0D:6FC0:8EF:6000:983C:9409:335E:6247 (talk) 17:55, 27 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Presumably "Oh wash me in the water that you washed the Colonel's daughter, and I shall be whiter than the whitewash on the wall" Sung in "Oh! What a Lovely War" here. DuncanHill (talk) 19:49, 27 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Graves remembered the words slightly differently: "Whiter than the milky cokernuts" etc. Lyrics here. --Antiquary (talk) 19:58, 27 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

A contemporary (1917) record of the lyrics and music is here, p. 91. --Antiquary (talk) 20:08, 27 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

And a few more historical details in Max Arthur's When This Bloody War Is Over, here, p. 69. --Antiquary (talk) 20:37, 27 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

It is based on the hymn "Blessed be the fountain of blood" which has the refrain "Whiter than the snow / Whiter than the snow / Wash me in the blood of the Lamb / And I shall be whiter than snow". DuncanHill (talk) 19:53, 27 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Robert Graves says, in his native English, "to the tune of the Salvation Army tune of 'Whiter than the snow'" (I believe this is a variation of Blessed be the Fountain) and gives the key line as "whiter than the milky cokernuts". See page 92 of the Penguin edition at Archive.org (registration required). DuncanHill (talk) 20:01, 27 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

[1] Majgoankar, Shrikant, ed. (17 May 1969). "शापित द्रौपदी" (PDF) (in Marathi). No. 51 (51 ed.). Rajhans Prakashan Maharashtra India. p. 14. Retrieved 23 December 2021.

[1]