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This is an old revision of this page, as edited by Cortador (talk | contribs) at 14:18, 20 August 2024 (→Voting power for parents: Reply). The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this revision, which may differ significantly from the current revision.

The couch thing

While it's clearly just a joke, the level of impact on his public perception feels like it belongs somewhere on this page. His VP run has been impacted one way or another. Maybe an "in pop culture" reference of sorts? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2001:1970:4000:82:D480:28D8:EF8E:7DB1 (talk) 03:47, 26 July 2024 (UTC) 2001:1970:4000:82:D480:28D8:EF8E:7DB1 (talk) 03:52, 26 July 2024 (UTC)wonkachocolate[reply]


Well, it's not hard to find numerous news articles from reputable sources on the issue:
1dragon (talk) 10:30, 26 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Yeah, that's not the point OP's making; the claim's effect on the campaign is separate from its truth. The question is whether or not its effect alone is noteworthy. Tama Boyle (talk) 00:40, 27 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
The Telegraph focuses on the AP's response to the hoax, not any focus on Vance. Newsweek is not generally reliable [1]. Rolling Stone is generally unreliable for politics.[2]. WP:HUFFPOLITICS is not a good source for determining whether a hoax is due weight in a political BLP. The USA Today article is from their 'For the Win' section which is just tabloid garbage. Vulture is a pop culture magazine. I've never heard of Pedestrian TV but just a quick glance tells me it's a tabloid rag. Salon has no consensus on reliability and should not be used to establish due weight here. Daily Beast is mentioned as requiring caution for BLP. I'm unsure about the SFGate. The Vox article goes off on Vance's history of remarks and the Washington Post focuses on how Twitter allows misinformation to spread. Traumnovelle (talk) 01:52, 5 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
It'd be nice if the Snopes fact check gets added, because it debunks a new rumor saying the couch thing was present only in the first edition: https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/jd-vance-hillbilly-elegy-first-edition-couch-erotica/ 197.1.53.51 (talk) 12:40, 31 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@2001:1970:4000:82:D480:28D8:EF8E:7DB1
it does not belong on this page at all.
hillary clinton's page doesn't mention qanon once, and the qanon hoax has been 100x more impactful than the couch hoax. consistency would be nice. 2A00:E180:171C:3800:F66B:8474:7B18:6C15 (talk) 19:26, 7 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
The Comet Ping Pong hoax? That may have been about her, but it speak to her, but rather the people who believed and spread it. The couch thing relates to Vance's public perception directly. – Muboshgu (talk) 20:57, 7 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Right so people being able to believe Hillary Clinton was involved in child trafficking speaks nothing about her but people believing JD Vance had sex with a couch speaks to him. Traumnovelle (talk) 06:29, 8 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I think you raise a fair point and I'm not sure why it was ignored. One could also note the employment of the hoax by the Harris campaign as propaganda but instead it's referred to as a "shift in messaging" or "attack line". Pretty interesting obfuscation. 2600:1700:76F1:E8A0:39FF:1896:950:A60F (talk) 21:34, 12 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
No, there's no "fair point" in comparing QAnon to this. – Muboshgu (talk) 21:38, 12 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
One is a long-lasting hoax that has influenced thousands of people, including some politicians. The other is a short lived hoax that was quickly disproven and has no evidence of influence over anything. Traumnovelle (talk) 22:06, 12 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Most important, the original source:

has luckily been archived at http://web.archive.org/web/20240724234824/apnews.com/article/fact-check-jd-vance-sex-couch-038130326229 --89.14.236.87 (talk) 15:51, 27 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Yea, I feel like this whole event is notable enough to justify at least a small blurb on the page. It may be worth noting that it's a false claim, but it's the thing most people are hearing about a notable person and the level of virality of the event is quite abnormal PleaseComputer (talk) 02:22, 28 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Yes. It's been added now. I think the addition is appropriate; this received widespread coverage as demonstrated above. Cortador (talk) 09:21, 29 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Since this hoax seems to have taken on a life of its own, but it's arguable whether it should be discussed at length in this article, I suggest that a WP:SPINOFF page should be created - perhaps JD Vance couch hoax. Thoughts? Carguychris (talk) 17:50, 2 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@Carguychris Interesting! I'm not completely sure it justifies its own page, is there precedent for these sorts of events being spun out? 72.38.50.76 (talk) 00:12, 3 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Please read through WP:BLP. That article was already created and was speedily deleted. Traumnovelle (talk) 08:45, 3 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@Traumnovelle I'm familiar with WP:BLP and it doesn't address hoaxes. That is the key: this is an obvious hoax, easily demonstrated to be nonfactual through basic research, and many reliable sources have now made that clear. Nobody is saying that it's true; the spinoff article would be about the hoax itself and the people who perpetrated it, and not a vehicle for speculation about whether the hoax is true. That said, I'm on the fence about whether it should be created because the hoax may not have WP:LASTING effects. Carguychris (talk) 13:21, 3 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
WP:BLPGOSSIP. Wikipedia is an encyclopaedia not an indiscriminate collection of information. A twitter rumour is not something that merits an article as it has no encyclopaedic value. Traumnovelle (talk) 20:24, 3 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
The Twitter rumor is not the reason it's notable. The notable part that an apparent Internet hoax got picked up by a major news organization, that organization then tried to suppress it, and then the suppression in itself was picked up by other organizations. Carguychris (talk) 12:45, 4 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
So in that case how is it relevant to Vance? You're stating the notable part is the Associated Press talking about it - if that is the case it is not due weight to be included in Vance's article. Traumnovelle (talk) 19:53, 4 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
it is relevant to Vance because it is a prominent point of public discourse and is shaping perception of him as a vice presidential nominee. SecretName101 (talk) 17:15, 5 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
You have no evidence of the latter. Traumnovelle (talk) 19:08, 5 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
See WP:BLPGOSSIP it is completely inappropriate for this information to be included. Traumnovelle (talk) 08:44, 3 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
the hoax has clearly been prominent enough to maintain relevance in its own right. BLP does not mean we ALWAYS shy away from talking about things that aren't shone in a neutral light, but provides that when inclusion is so, we cover the subject in the most factual way possible. YodaYogaYogurt154 (talk) 01:20, 4 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
evidently, this has been prominent enough to function under those standards. gossip, like anything, can become meta-notable when it gains noteworthy status in it of itself, and has more than a shallow status of relevance. There's enough here to warrant inclusion. YodaYogaYogurt154 (talk) 01:23, 4 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Non-neutral things we might cover in a BLP include criminal convictions and controversial actions. We don't cover false rumours.
>There's enough here to warrant inclusion.
Most of the sources are tabloids. This will not be remembered in 10 years let alone a year. Encyclopaedias aren't meant to cover every single piece of information on a subject. Traumnovelle (talk) 03:36, 4 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Yeah, I'm highly, highly skeptical of including the couch thing. Jjazz76 (talk) 03:44, 4 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Even if added, it deserves no more than a sentence. "False rumours of ________ were spread from 2024". starship.paint (RUN) 12:15, 4 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I suppose that the Telegraph, HuffPost and AP are all tabloids, @Traumnovelle. yes, that makes sense. 🙄😮‍💨
this has had enough effect and impact on his largely apparently negative (according to proper metrics) public opinion that it makes sense to include it. YodaYogaYogurt154 (talk) 13:22, 4 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
The AP deleted their story. The Telegraph are reporting on AP removing the story. WP:HUFFPOLITICS has no consensus on it's reliability and yeah it is a fucking rag of a paper. Traumnovelle (talk) 19:50, 4 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@Traumnovelle that’d be a valid point if The Telegraph was the sole source that covered that. But it was not: numerous significant sources did beyond those three. SecretName101 (talk) 17:11, 5 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Numerous sources would be a valid point if they weren't primarily primary source tabloid rags. Traumnovelle (talk) 19:07, 5 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@Traumnovelle: It's been covered by The Washington Post, The Guardian, NPR, Business Insider, Vanity Fair, USA Today, The Cut and Vulture (both imprints of New York Magazine), Rolling Stone, The Mercury News, The Boston Herald, SFGate, The Hollywood Reporter, Vox, Slate, The New Republic. Plus cable news networks have discussed it. A pretty broad variety of sources are covering it. SecretName101 (talk) 19:50, 5 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

You're making my point for me. You don't even know what constitutes a reliable source. Traumnovelle (talk) 20:16, 5 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

WP:RSP exists. You've even (indirectly) linked to it above. WP:WAPO is reliable. WP:THEGUARDIAN is reliable. NPR is reliable (from WP:RSP). WP:BUSINESSINSIDER is currently no-consensus, but it's not unreliable. WP:VANITYFAIR is reliable. WP:USATODAY is reliable. The Cut and Vulture are reliable (both part of New York magazine, from WP:RSP). WP:THR is reliable. WP:RSPVOX is reliable. The New Republic is reliable (from WP:RSP). There were a few sources listed that aren't listed at WP:RSPS, but only one was unreliable, and that was WP:ROLLINGSTONE.
Even Last Week Tonight with John Oliver covered it (there was actually even another reference to it from last nights episode too). The hoax is incredibly well sourced and definitely DUE given the far reaching coverage it received (as John Oliver noted: coverage even made it into print in a newspaper in Norway). You don't even know what constitutes a reliable source. You really do protest too much; out of sixteen sources @SecretName101 listed, only one was unreliable, with the overwhelming majority already reliable per WP:RSPS and a handful not listed there. —Locke Cole • t • c 21:48, 5 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
And even Rolling Stone is considered reliable by Wikipedia for culture pieces and some other subjects. SecretName101 (talk) 21:57, 5 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
This is a political BLP not a 'culture piece', it's explicitly what it should not be relied on for. Traumnovelle (talk) 22:00, 5 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
A BLP about a figure who is part of a national political campaign. National US political campaigns and popular culture regularly intertwine and overlap. Even more so in this era. SecretName101 (talk) 22:26, 5 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
The USA Today piece is not their main column but some spinoff that is quite clearly some low-tier tabloid journalism based on what other stories they run. They're also primary sources which are not useful for establishing due weight. Secondary sources establish weight. Traumnovelle (talk) 21:59, 5 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Traum's kinda noticed he's losing seeing as he's taking potshots at the USA Today story above all else. All the other sourcing stands. YodaYogaYogurt154 (talk) 12:14, 6 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@Traumnovelle add Cincinnati Enquirer and Talking Points Memo
It’s also been covered both by conservative (and liberal slanted sources alike. SecretName101 (talk) 00:25, 7 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
You're not convincing me by mentioning different rags that cover it instead of quality secondary coverage that establishes an impact to Vance from it. Traumnovelle (talk) 01:19, 7 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
that establishes an impact To be clear, that's not a requisite, that's something you personally want. You've been given a dozen reliable secondary sources, you just don't like them for whatever reason. That's unfortunate, but that doesn't affect the decision making going on here with regard to how we cover the hoax. What affects that is those same reliable secondary sources. —Locke Cole • t • c 14:10, 7 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Those were not secondary sources. Traumnovelle (talk) 19:01, 7 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I'm sorry you don't know what secondary sources are. You should probably visit the Tea House and get help on that. —Locke Cole • t • c 20:15, 7 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
You should really bother to look up what a secondary source is if you think news reports are secondary sources. Traumnovelle (talk) 06:25, 8 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
WP:TEAHOUSE —Locke Cole • t • c 14:02, 8 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Convenience break

We do have an article on secondary source. Traumnovelle (talk) 18:47, 8 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@Traumnovelle have you read the article? SecretName101 (talk) 19:58, 9 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
>Secondary sources involve generalization, analysis, interpretation, or evaluation of the original information. Traumnovelle (talk) 20:05, 9 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Just like the secondary sources provided above. Glad you finally got that figured out. —Locke Cole • t • c 03:47, 10 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
No, those are not secondary sources. Traumnovelle (talk) 04:01, 10 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
They are. —Locke Cole • t • c 04:11, 10 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Please learn what a secondary source actually is. Traumnovelle (talk) 04:19, 10 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@Locke Cole: I appreciate the ongoing discussion, but, respectfully, I think it makes sense to refocus on the principles in WP:BLPGOSSIP. While there has been media coverage of this incident, that alone doesn't justify inclusion in a biography of a living person. WP:BLPGOSSIP explicitly says we should "avoid repeating gossip," even if true, unless it's relevant to a disinterested article about the subject. This is a hoax, and clearly falls under "gossip". And while some of the sources discussing this may be reliable for other topics, I think we should also question whether they constitute high-quality secondary sources establishing this hoax's lasting impact on Vance's career or public image, as required by WP:DUE. Including this information, even briefly, risks giving undue weight to a trivial event in the context of Vance's overall life and career (also see WP:UNDUE).
(Long-time reader/user; first time getting back into the fray of editing in a while since I'm tired of seeing obvious bias.) ballpointzen (talk) 17:31, 12 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@Ballpointzen You also seem to have a misunderstanding as well. The gossip would be "JD vance wrote about masturbating....". That's not being included at face-value, nor is it being included for it's face-value assertion.
Rather, what is being included is that there was a clear hoax that received high-profile attention and impacted discourse during his early VP candidacy. All of which is true, notable, and verifiable. SecretName101 (talk) 18:31, 12 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Let me respectfully disagree with your interpretation of WP:BLPGOSSIP in this context. The way it is written, the policy on gossip isn't limited to just repeating the same face-value claim. It says "[a]sk yourself whether the source is reliable . . . and whether, even if true, it is relevant to a disinterested article about the subject." The key here is relevance, not just reliability. While the hoax gained attention, it doesn't appear to have had any lasting impact on Vance's career, policies, or public actions.
Look, if we think it's necessary, this hoax might be more appropriately covered in a broader article about the 2024 election or social media's impact on politics, rather than in Vance's personal biography. If anything, I think that's what your response above argues in favor of.
If I were to look at this cynically, it would seem like an attempt to keep the hoax alive among aspects of his life that are actually notable or had a significant impact on Vance's career or public image in order to score political points. But I'll reserve that accusation until what is said clearly merits it. ballpointzen (talk) 19:04, 12 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Are you asserting there isn't widespread reliable source coverage of a hoax involving JD Vance and claims that he said something in a book regarding sexual acts with a couch? —Locke Cole • t • c 23:53, 12 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

You're making it quite hard to assume good faith about your reasons for supporting the content. Traumnovelle (talk) 04:24, 13 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

So is that a "no"? —Locke Cole • t • c 04:35, 13 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@Locke Cole Once again, the question isn't whether there's widespread coverage of the hoax - we've established that there is. The crux of the issue is whether this coverage justifies inclusion in a BLP based on WP:BLP. This hoax doesn't significantly contribute to understanding Vance's role as an author, politician, or VP candidate. It hasn't had any demonstrable, long-term effect on Vance's career or public actions. The hoax seems to fall into the category of ephemeral internet phenomena rather than substantive biographical information. Would a dispassionate overview of Vance's life and career necessarily include this incident? I'm convinced that it wouldn't. Given all this, I think the weight of WP policies - particularly BLP and UNDUE - leans heavily towards excluding this info from Vance's biographical article. The existence of coverage doesn't override these policies. Unless there's compelling evidence that the hoax has had a significant, lasting impact on Vance's career or public image - beyond just being a momentary topic of discussion - I think we should err on the side of caution and remove it from the article. I propose we move forward with removing this section. Does anyone have any final thoughts before we do so? ballpointzen (talk) 14:08, 13 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

understanding Vance's role as an author, politician, or VP candidate Those aren't the only reasons we include content in articles. WP:DUE is, again, the typical gauge we use to include or exclude content. Given the prevalence of hoax coverage in reliable sources and the continued use of the hoax a short paragraph on the topic is justified. The consensus so far in this section is for inclusion, so your attempt to push through removal seems... unwise. Pinging other major participants to this proposal: @SecretName101, @Carguychris, @Muboshgu, @Starship.paint, @Traumnovelle, @YodaYogaYogurt154, @PleaseComputer —Locke Cole • t • c 15:44, 13 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Given the prevalence of hoax coverage in reliable sources
I don't know how many times it needs to be repeated, but prevalence of hoax coverage is not sufficient to include information in a BLP.
Can you cite to exactly what you're basing the idea that "prevalence of coverage" is sufficient to include information in a BLP? ballpointzen (talk) 15:56, 13 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
WP:DUE —Locke Cole • t • c 16:10, 13 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Due weight is determined by secondary, not primary sources. Traumnovelle (talk) 18:56, 13 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
That's not what DUE says. And regardless, we have many secondary sources. —Locke Cole • t • c 19:09, 13 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
You don't know what a secondary source is and you've made it quite clear what your motivation is here. Traumnovelle (talk) 19:54, 13 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
what a secondary source is Pretty sure I have a firmer handle on it than you do. But regardless, WP:DUE makes no mention of secondary sources, so it doesn't matter anyways. what your motivation is here To build a complete encyclopedia, it's unclear to me what your motivation is considering you've had multiple editors tell you you're wrong, only to just parrot the same things over and over again as if repetition will somehow change the fact that you're wrong. —Locke Cole • t • c 05:01, 14 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@Locke Cole: Citing WP:DUE with no explanation doesn't look like good faith engagement. And while it's important to consider, we need to consider it alongside WP:BLPGOSSIP, which is specifically tailored for situations like this. So I'll go ahead and actually undertake the task of looking at them together.
Let's also keep in mind the fundamental principle of WP:BLP that we may be overlooking: "The burden of evidence rests with the editor who adds or restores the material." This is crucial in our current debate. Consensus needs to be formed around including this information -- the default is excluding it if consensus isn't reached. Accordingly, it should really be deleted until consensus is reached.
Now, let's apply WP:DUE as you seem to suggest. We must consider if the hoax represents a "significant viewpoint" about Vance. It's a hoax that was proven to be a hoax and has been perpetuated only by political actors since it occurred. How does this contribute a "significant viewpoint" about Vance? I don't see it. WP:DUE also warns about giving "undue weight" to minority aspects. In the context of Vance's entire career, this hoax is a minor event, regardless of some articles around the event. WP:DUE's guidance about minority views not belonging on Wikipedia "except perhaps in some ancillary article" suggests that if this hoax is to be mentioned, it might be more appropriate in an article about the 2024 election or social media's impact on politics, rather than in Vance's biography.
Then let's look at WP:BLPGOSSIP. WP:BLPGOSSIP explicitly says to "Avoid repeating gossip" and asks us to consider "whether, even if true, it is relevant to a disinterested article about the subject." This directly addresses our situation and should be given significant weight. WP:BLPGOSSIP warns us to "Be wary of relying on sources that use weasel words and that attribute material to anonymous sources." Many reports on this hoax look like they fall into this category.
While WP:DUE suggests representing views "in proportion to their representation in reliable sources," WP:BLPGOSSIP reminds us that reliability alone isn't sufficient - relevance to a disinterested article is crucial.
Considering these points, I believe the burden of evidence for including this hoax has not been met. Those arguing for inclusion need to demonstrate how it aligns with these BLP principles, not just that it was widely reported.
Unless we can show that this hoax has had a lasting, significant impact on Vance's career or public image - beyond temporary media attention - and that its inclusion serves the goals outlined in BLP, I still think that we should remove it from the article. This conservative approach seems most consistent with the policies designed to protect living subjects. ballpointzen (talk) 23:09, 13 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Can you cite to exactly what you're basing the idea that "prevalence of coverage" is sufficient to include information in a BLP? This was your original question. I responded with WP:DUE. I'm sorry that four paragraphs of text weren't sufficient enough for your needs. WP:BLP is satisfied and WP:BLPGOSSIP does not apply to this (we're not engaging in gossip in wikivoice; however, the hoax itself that promoted a false claim is widely reported in reliable sources). The minor amount of text dedicated to this subject is certainly WP:DUE given the continuing coverage the hoax has. At some point I'm just going to stop replying because we've had this argument now for nearly three weeks. Nothing new has been presented to justify removing our coverage of the hoax. And we aren't required to WP:SATISFY the repetition in arguments. There's also some serious WP:IDHT going on... —Locke Cole • t • c 05:09, 14 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
If we've had this argument over including a hoax in a BLP for three weeks, that seems to clearly mean it should be excluded. Again, the burden is on the editors including the information to demonstrate consensus, not those trying to exclude it. ballpointzen (talk) 16:04, 14 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
There haven't really been any arguments for the past three weeks. It's been mostly one editor arguing against many others using flawed logic. You just showed up recently from an account created in 2005 with edits numbered in the hundreds, and a gap of 15 years since any activity to speak of to.. come here and battleground this? —Locke Cole • t • c 16:09, 14 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Which part of WP:BLPGOSSIP is applicable to this situation per the wording of BLPGOSSIP? Not saying I support including more than a passing mention (a sentence or two at most), but BLPGOSSIP isn't going to be the reason we exclude it. —Locke Cole • t • c 12:23, 4 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Avoid repeating gossip. ... even if true, it is relevant to a disinterested article about the subject. Traumnovelle (talk) 19:51, 4 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
It's not gossip from the outset: reliable sources all point to it being a false claim that has been debunked. At that point, BLPGOSSIP no longer applies; reliable sources have discussed the incident (the false allegations), at this point the salient issue is whether or not such coverage is widespread enough to satisfy WP:DUE. —Locke Cole • t • c 19:54, 4 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
According to the OED gossip is: 'trifling or groundless rumour', that applies to the story here. BLPGOSSIP includes whether rumours are WP:DUE and in this case it isn't due for this article. Traumnovelle (talk) 20:00, 4 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
WP:DUE covers what is or isn't due. Thank you for confirming BLPGOSSIP is inapplicable here. —Locke Cole • t • c 20:27, 4 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
And giving undue weight to certain things is a BLP violation. Traumnovelle (talk) 20:28, 4 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Luckily this is not a BLP violation. Which circles us back to WP:DUE, of which given all the reliable sources on the hoax, we have plenty to justify the exceedingly short passage we have thus far. —Locke Cole • t • c 05:01, 5 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
As mentioned above, this is in fact a BLP violation and I think we're misinterpreting WP:BLPGOSSIP in this context. While the policy does kind of seem to intersect with WP:DUE, it also give specifics guidance for this kind of situation: WP:BLPGOSSIP says "Avoid repeating gossip. Ask yourself whether the source is reliable; whether the material is being presented as true; and whether, even if true, it is relevant to a disinterested article about the subject." Even if the sources reporting on this hoax are reliable, we have to question whether this information is truly relevant to a disinterested article about Vance. The hoax itself, while widely reported, doesn't directly relate to Vance's actions, career, or public service. ballpointzen (talk) 17:36, 12 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
“trifling or groundless rumor” would apply to the face-value claim of him humping couch cushions. that is the rumor
however, the internet hoax that promulgated that rumor and the impact that that has had is not a rumor: it is fact. It is factual that a widespread internet hoax exists. SecretName101 (talk) 05:59, 5 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Traumnovelle, this is not a BLP violation. It would be a BLP violation if we said "Vance fucked a couch" in Wikivoice. Covering it as we do does not violate BLP. And there is considerable impact of the couch meme along with the "weird" vibe on Vance. The couch debacle only underscored Vance’s overall dismal introduction to the country after his somewhat forgettable speech at the Republican national convention last month, prompting some to wonder if Trump should make the historic decision to ditch his running mate just three months before election day. The section is also not so long as to be undue. – Muboshgu (talk) 01:45, 5 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

That article goes far beyond the rumour and focuses on other stuff. You can't argue it has impact when it's nothing more than a clickbait headline for the article. Traumnovelle (talk) 01:54, 5 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
The non-tabloid/rags go in detail about his past or focus on the Streisand effect and ability for misinformation to spread online. It's far more due in an article on online misinformation, not as it's own paragraph and heading in a BLP. There are dozens of news stories published every day about this man. Traumnovelle (talk) 01:58, 5 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
dozens of news stories published every day about this man Yes, but few have received the level of coverage and entered the corpus of human knowledge like this hoax has. —Locke Cole • t • c 05:03, 5 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
>corpus of human knowledge
What an utterly absurd statement. Traumnovelle (talk) 05:33, 5 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I bet if you stopped ten random people on the street and asked them if they knew about the couch thing you'd get a lot of people who knew about it. —Locke Cole • t • c 01:58, 6 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Be my guest if you want to try and prove that. Traumnovelle (talk) 02:05, 6 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@Traumnovelle In my experience, knowledge of the rumor is shockingly widespread. SecretName101 (talk) 21:39, 7 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I think good evidence of this is how late night shows, political analysts, and politicians alike have been able to make jokes/wordplay about Vance and couches without needing to contextualize the jokes for their audiences. SecretName101 (talk) 21:41, 7 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
https://amp.theguardian.com/us-news/article/2024/aug/04/jd-vance-critics-trump-vp
Interesting article
worth noting also noting: that the term “JD Vance Couch” is getting 1/7 the number of searches as the query “JD Vance”. Pretty much underlining just how widespread this thing became.
https://www.businessinsider.com/jd-vance-couch-sex-joke-author-speaks-2024-7?amp
a look a Google Trends shows it as the top related search to Vance SecretName101 (talk) 06:08, 5 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
The search term "jd vance couch" is receiving comparable if not significantly higher searches than the topic Hillbilly Elegy, the book he became famous for which is mentioned 8 times in the article, per Google trends. (https://trends.google.com/trends/explore?date=now%207-d&geo=US&q=jd%20vance%20couch,%2Fg%2F11c5947bwl&hl=en) Clearly, this is relevant enough to merit the existing mention. 2601:1C2:1400:DCD0:1533:23A0:7BD8:56B7 (talk) 06:42, 11 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
We base what merits inclusion based on what secondary sources do, not on what people put into Google. Traumnovelle (talk) 06:57, 11 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@Traumnovelle Did you not notice the Business Insider link that I linked to reporting on that? SecretName101 (talk) 18:28, 12 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Interviews are primary sources. Traumnovelle (talk) 18:45, 12 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I've trimmed it down to one sentence and put it in his campaign section: On July 15, 2024, an Internet hoax spread from social network X that falsely claimed that Hillbilly Elegy described Vance masturbating using a latex glove placed between couch cushions; Internet memes were generated in response, while the viral hoax's spread was amplified after the Associated Press published and deleted a fact-check of it. I've also cited more reliable sources, WaPo, Guardian and NPR, that justify the inclusion of this sentence. I don't think it needs its own section, it seems to draw even more attention to the hoax. starship.paint (RUN) 12:38, 5 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@Starship.paint I like your new version better; it adequately explains the event without giving it WP:UNDUE weight. I've made a couple of very minor wording and punctuation tweaks. Carguychris (talk) 14:03, 5 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@Carguychris: - thanks, here's posting version for the record: On July 15, 2024, an Internet hoax spread from social network X falsely claiming that Hillbilly Elegy described Vance masturbating using a latex glove placed between couch cushions. Internet memes were generated in response, and the viral hoax's spread was amplified after the Associated Press published and promptly deleted a fact-check of it. starship.paint (RUN) 14:18, 5 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I also support this revision, I wasn't a big fan of the dedicated section header. —Locke Cole • t • c 16:14, 5 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Trimming is good. It may yet deserve more content than this in the future, but we'll have to wait and see. – Muboshgu (talk) 16:25, 5 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Perhaps combine the hoax and polling under a combined section titled “public perception” or something to that effect? SecretName101 (talk) 17:17, 5 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@SecretName101, I think the hoax belongs in the previous section where it was before you moved it. I don't see what it has to do with Vance's public perception, since none of the sources are reporting that the general public actually believes this nonsense. Carguychris (talk) 17:45, 5 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Why is this allowed to be added but not other famous hoaxes like the Richard Gere gerbil story or the Rod Stewart stomach pump story?Exzachary (talk) 22:07, 12 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
WP:OTHERSTUFFEXISTS is not basis to question this information. of all the ways you could have took on this thing from your viewpoint, this is the approach you took? YodaYogaYogurt154 (talk) 20:00, 13 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
It's fair to point out the only reason this cruft has been kept is because of political bias. If this wasn't a political BLP it'd be strongly opposed.
And no, there is no evidence this has any lasting effect and this attempt to include it on Wikipedia is just trying to create one. Traumnovelle (talk) 20:04, 13 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The fact that someone had to insert a masturbation hoax into tthis page clearly shows how out of touch with reality this page is. Its pathetic yet it stands on the page. A bunch of Kamala lackies are writing for wiki. It should be removed immediately. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 12.4.246.194 (talk) 02:14, 13 August 2024 (UTC) No of course it does not belong. If that is included, Tim Walz’s stolen valor controversy not only deserves more mention, but it entirely deserves its own page.[reply]

Hi IP editor. It's something of coverage and has had an effect and a lasting point. YodaYogaYogurt154 (talk) 19:58, 13 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

As hilarious as the hoax is and all the discourse around it, it clearly does not belong on this wiki page as per all of the objections raised above. I'll add also there is an element of "recentism" in here as well. This is unlikely to be a notable topic in his life past December, after he has (hopefully) lost the election and slinks back into obscurity. It is far, far too early to make claims that "it is a lasting point". Per WP:WEIGHT I think it could perhaps be better covered by a simple and neutral sentence such as "Vance has been the subject of numerous internet hoaxes since becoming the Republican Vice-Presidential nominee." David Palmer//cloventt (talk) 21:25, 13 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

  • This proposed sentence is too vague. A reader should walk away knowing that the couch allegation is fake. After thinking some more, I'm okay to simply trimming to this: On July 15, 2024, a viral Internet hoax spread from social network X falsely claiming that Hillbilly Elegy described Vance masturbating using a latex glove placed between couch cushions. starship.paint (RUN) 13:36, 14 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    Agreed the proposal is too vague and being crystal clear that it is fake. That being said, I think the trimmed version omitting the meme portion of the incident (which is ongoing) wouldn't be appropriate. The AP fact-check then retraction being trimmed might work though (it was interesting when the incident first occurred, but it's not really relevant now that I can see from more recent sources). Here are a couple more recent sources that show the topic is still being covered, and the effects of the hoax are still being realized.
    • Marquez, Alexandra (2024-08-12). "Democrats continue to joke about false JD Vance rumor after years of criticizing Trump for spreading misinformation". NBC News. NBC News. Retrieved 2024-08-14. The fervor reached a peak in Philadelphia, the day Vice President Kamala Harris named Minnesota Gov. Tim Walz as her running mate. Walz told an arena filled with thousands of excited supporters: "I got to tell you, I can't wait to debate the guy [Vance]. That is, if he's willing to get off the couch and show up." As the crowd roared and Harris smirked behind him, Walz, who just weeks earlier started a trend of calling Republicans "weird," quipped, "You see what I did there?" The Harris campaign's TikTok account, named Kamala HQ, posted a video of the moment that has been viewed over 5.3 million times.
    • Lee, Michael (2024-08-12). "Dems hitting Vance with debunked vulgar claim 'undermine' their anti-Trump credibility, strategist says". FOX News. Fox News. Retrieved 2024-08-14. The moment went viral on the Harris campaign's TikTok account, named Kamala HQ, garnering 5.3 million views, NBC reported, noting that Democrats have continued to use the joke despite the release of fact-checks debunking the rumor by several media outlets. In one such example, the Democratic Congressional Campaign Committee sent a news release on July 26 targeting Trump's decision to pick Vance, joking that Republicans are "couching their public praise of Trump's vice presidential nominee with private criticism." On July 27, the Kamala HQ X account shared a screenshot of Vance's moments on "cat ladies" with the caption that the Ohio senator "does not couch his hatred for women." A day later, Illinois Gov. J.B. Pritzker, long believed to be a potential candidate to join Harris on the ticket, joked on ABC News that while Trump "talks about all kinds of crazy stuff," Vance is "getting known for his obsession with couches."
    —Locke Cole • t • c 14:30, 14 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    Okay, not much longer: On July 15, 2024, a viral Internet hoax spread from social network X falsely claiming that Hillbilly Elegy described Vance masturbating using a latex glove placed between couch cushions, and Internet memes were generated in response. The current Harris/Walz campaign stuff can go to the Harris/Walz campaign article. It doesn't need to be in this BLP. starship.paint (RUN) 14:38, 14 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    This discussion seems to have gone on long enough to where we should probably just RFC it. I didn't even know about this "hoax" until I read about it here, which one might argue is why we should cover it, but on the other hand, I also believe it's never going to pass the WP:10YT test. I'm going to lean towards this particular circumstance having zero encyclopedic value on this BLP. Kcmastrpc (talk) 14:58, 14 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    I'd personally be stunned if this didn't find its way into independent biographies on JD in the near future. —Locke Cole • t • c 16:16, 14 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    A hoax is fake. Stating that the a hoax is false is redundant and poor writing. Traumnovelle (talk) 18:45, 14 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    The details of what the content of the hoax are is what is causing friction with WP:BLP. The graphic details of the hoax should therefore be removed. The vagueness is a feature, not a bug.
    The word "hoax" should indicate to any reader that there is no substance to the hoax, and it is entirely false. But we can really labour that point if you like.
    If it needs to be mentioned, it only needs to be something like: During his Vice-Presential campaign Vance was the subject of several viral Internet hoaxes. David Palmer//cloventt (talk) 21:07, 14 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    I'm convinced that what's causing friction is that this particular hoax is puerile, R-rated, and deeply and indisputably tacky. No other Vance-related hoax is anywhere near as notable as this specific one. Nobody is saying that he actually did the deed. Why sugar-coat this? Carguychris (talk) 22:03, 14 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    Because it is about a real person and we are supposed to treat living people with dignity on Wikipedia. Traumnovelle (talk) 04:09, 15 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@Cloventt Given the lack of consensus on its inclusion, why would we not just exclude it? I thought per WP:BLP, the burden is on editors trying to include information to show consensus, not on those who don't believe it's correct to include it?
Genuine question. I may be misunderstanding the policy. Thanks. ballpointzen (talk) 16:09, 14 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Summary and proposed next steps

Summary of discussion of "the couch thing" and proposed next steps

This discussion has been ongoing for several weeks, with no clear consensus yet.

Key points raised:

For inclusion:

  • Significant media coverage from various sources
  • Impact on public discourse during Vance's VP candidacy
  • Potentially meets WP:DUE given extent of coverage

Against inclusion:

  • WP:BLP sets high bar for including controversial content about living persons
  • Concerns about WP:UNDUE weight in context of Vance's overall career
  • Questions about lasting impact and relevance to a disinterested biography

Proposed options for moving forward:

  1. Seek input from the BLP Noticeboard for a broader perspective on policy compliance.
  2. Consider drafting a separate article on misinformation in the 2024 election, where this could be mentioned in context.
  3. Retain a brief, factual mention of the hoax without detailed coverage or its own section.
  4. Request a neutral third-party administrator to review the discussion and make a determination.
  5. Keep the current expanded content as is.
  6. Remove all mention of the hoax.

Please indicate your preferred option(s) in your response. If you have alternative suggestions, please add them to the list.

Note: This is not a vote, but a way to gauge consensus. Final decisions will be based on policy-compliant arguments, not vote counts.

--ballpointzen (talk) 18:15, 14 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you ballpointzen.
Regarding your previous question, my preference is to completely remove it (eg #6 in your list). I would also support #3. David Palmer//cloventt (talk) 21:00, 14 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Keep as-is (#5), I don't see why this is such a big deal if it's clearly labeled as a hoax. The hoax and the reactions to it are clearly notable. The only reason this argument is still going (and going... and going...) is that the topic of the hoax is squicky. Carguychris (talk) 22:09, 14 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
#5, though I think the dedicated section is gratuitous and wasn't what we had in the article when consensus formed around inclusion a couple of weeks ago. The text @Starship.paint suggested above, in a "Public reactions" section which covers other WP:DUE public reactions would be most sensible. —Locke Cole • t • c 02:45, 15 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
3, there’s enough coverage. 1 and 4 will probably not produce a result. What is needed is an RFC. starship.paint (RUN) 10:36, 15 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
3. Agree with starship, needs an RfC. Kcmastrpc (talk) 13:00, 15 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

This is an embarrassment

We already have a section dedicated to this topic, refactoring this discussion into the other discussion —Locke Cole • t • c 21:25, 19 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

So we settled on removing his medals but made damn sure to add a section cracking jokes about him fucking a couch. (Redacted)2601:600:817F:16F0:ECF7:C037:B1C5:EC3F (talk) 22:19, 18 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

His medals are still there (both in the military section and in the info box). But you do raise a fair point as to the inclusion of the coach etc Editmakerer (talk) 04:41, 19 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
He makes a fair point that wikipedia is not censored? The information is unambigously due, removing it would be polical censorship which we don't do. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 16:00, 19 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
We didn't cover AOC's Alex Stein lawsuit[1] because it's not WP:LASTING, same thing applies here. Kcmastrpc (talk) 16:08, 19 August 2024 (UTC) Kcmastrpc (talk) 16:08, 19 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
LASTING is about the independent notability of events... Which does not apply in this context at all. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 16:30, 19 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
The issue is not about "censorship", but whether this rank juvenile unverified "hoax" belongs in a Biography -- a BLP. There is an issue of citation overkill, also, while FACTCHECK said in so many words that the story is bullshit. Also, there is no counterpoint, let alone Vance's words on the issue, which raises serious NPOV issues. Therefore the section has been tagged until we put this out on the curbside with the rest of the biased trash.. -- Gwillhickers (talk) 19:26, 19 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Hoaxes are no less signficant than anything else, if it gets significant coverage we cover it. If you think that there are sources which need to be included to address a NPOV issue then you are obligated to include them, if no such sources exist then there is no NPOV issue. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 19:36, 19 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Hoaxes are not more significant than the basic and established facts.Any issue can be artificially inflated, especially by the news. Sources are not the issue, the way the section is written is. A section can still be unbalanced even when a variety of sources are used, if it only offers one view. We don't need a source to tell us the sun rises in the east. The section is obviously lacking other perspectives. -- Gwillhickers (talk) 22:44, 19 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • A statement from The Telegraph, per the Associated Press, already used as one of the citation/sources in this section, was included in the 'Couch' section, stating that this "hoax" has been debunked. i.e.'Sex with a couch' was never mentioned in Vance's book. -- Gwillhickers (talk) 22:57, 19 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I've gone ahead and folded the couch hoax into the Public reactions section, I also trimmed a sentence that was added that seemed to duplicate what was already said in the second sentence. We already make it quite clear, in wikivoice, that this is a hoax and it is false. —Locke Cole • t • c 23:42, 19 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

References

  1. ^ https://www.cnbc.com/2023/03/08/comedian-sues-aoc-for-twitter-block-after-he-catcalled-her-outside-us-capitol.html

The Simone Biles thing

On Fox News in 2021, Vance made an unfortunate comment in hindsight about Simone Biles, now America's most decorated Olympic gymnast thanks to her dominance at the 2024 Paris games, and perhaps America's most popular athlete as I write this. (Fun pageview comparison here.) Vance's comment has been picked up by most major news outlets. Does it warrant inclusion here? Carguychris (talk) 15:17, 7 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Do you have a source/example? —Locke Cole • t • c 16:25, 7 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Google "JD Vance Simone Biles". Examples here, here, and here. Sources meeting WP:RS are obviously picking it up the story, but WP:NOTNEWS arguably applies, which is why I decided to float the topic here before adding it to the main article. Carguychris (talk) 16:43, 7 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Yeah, I was mostly worried about WP:SYNTH, but your sources are making their own analysis. Really to me it's a WP:DUE concern, I'd wait and see if there is additional RS covering this or if it's just passing news item as WP:NOTNEWS describes. —Locke Cole • t • c 17:18, 7 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I don't think NOTNEWS describes that, and the coverage Carguychris just gave you says that its due... You don't need additional when you have The Independent and the NYT (those are the ones you wait for when its just Vice or something like that, you don't ask for more after getting those). Horse Eye's Back (talk) 17:44, 7 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
My concern was around the lasting notability part of NOTNEWS. DUE is part of that. I won't object to one or two sentences as part of a larger paragraph however, because as you say it's very reliably sourced. —Locke Cole • t • c 20:54, 7 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
There is no such part of NOTNEWS unless I'm missing something, there is a part about "enduring notability" but its clearly linked to Wikipedia:Notability. I think you fundementally misunderstand NOTNEWS. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 21:02, 7 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I think Locke is referring to WP:LASTING? That's really about the suitability of events to be their own page. – Muboshgu (talk) 21:05, 7 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Yeah, enduring was the word. I don't agree that I fundamentally misunderstood anything, but I also don't see why you're responding when I support inclusion based on the reliability of the sources. Unless we're arguing just to argue now? —Locke Cole • t • c 21:11, 7 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Sorry I didn't view it as arguing, I thought we were having a discussion and clearing up a genuine misunderstanding. I will desist, I did not mean to cause you undue stress. My apologies. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 21:14, 7 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Its due, but only as a sentence or two. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 17:46, 7 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I agree. – Muboshgu (talk) 21:06, 7 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@Horse Eye's Back, @Locke Cole et al, I decided to sit on this for two weeks and see if there was any WP:LASTING coverage, and at this point, it looks like it was a flash in the pan. Carguychris (talk) 21:33, 13 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I didn't even hear of this news at all until I read of it right here. starship.paint (RUN) 14:34, 14 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Childlessness

Childlessness and Sociopathy

"Vance is an outspoken critic of childlessness, linking it to sociopathy" the link to sociopathy and childlessness is based on literally no evidence. It is a complete fabrication by JD Vance and the neutral tone used here gives the impression that a link actually exists. I believe this should be edited to something such as "falsely linking it to sociopathy" or something similar Overfill3 (talk) 20:59, 8 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

"Linking (childlessness) ... to sociopathy" is a complete editorialization. That was never claimed by him. He compared AOC's views on the questionable morality of having children with the state of the world being sociopathic. He never said anything close to non-parents having a higher rate of sociopathy. 2607:FEA8:5980:A0:2C65:CB44:E027:D8F4 (talk) 03:39, 12 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Do you have a study discrediting his claim? If not, then saying it's "false" is just you inserting your bias. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 97.154.245.87 (talk) 21:55, 11 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

A study isn't needed to discredit a claim when those claims aren't backed by science to begin with. ONUS here would actually be on the individual making such a bold claim to prove that the two are linked.
In the absence of evidence, it is safer to assume no link at all. Otherwise, we'd be wasting a lot of valuable time on things which there's no reason to believe something causes something else. Wozal (talk) 22:54, 11 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
To be clear Vance attacked AOC's view on families as having a “Sociopathic attitude”
He's not making an academic claim that theres a causation between childlessness there. BenDoleman (talk) 00:47, 12 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Semi-protected edit request on 10 August 2024

Please change "Vance is an outspoken critic of childlessness, linking it to sociopathy" to "Vance criticized Alexandria Oscasio-Cortez's position that it is immoral to have children because of climate change as sociopathic."

The current version deliberately misrepresents what he said. Source: https://www.motherjones.com/politics/2024/08/jd-vance-aoc-childless/ 2601:201:8C01:E2F0:8092:62C:505D:8AC4 (talk) 11:54, 10 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

 Not done This isn't a once-off. See this article for the actual direct link he made. ser! (chat to me - see my edits) 11:56, 10 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Children

JD did not speak in any diragotory terms about childlessness. What he said as taken out in f context. This needs to be corrected 2601:148:437E:700:2816:48F4:B4E2:2C26 (talk) 02:07, 12 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The sentence is complete editorialization. The source does not support this phrasing. 2607:FEA8:5980:A0:2C65:CB44:E027:D8F4 (talk) 03:40, 12 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Childlessness (fourth paragraph)

In the fourth paragraph he is described as "an outspoken critic of childlessness" and then cites a news article quoting him saying "My goal here is to not criticize every single person who doesn’t have children."

He may well be a critic/opponent of childlessness but Wp:Blp needs far better sourcing than this, if it is the case, and either way it is an egregious error for an extended protected page. LOVECEL 🤍 20:55, 13 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The way Vance describes himself isn't what determines how he is described here, how sources describe him is. The source (which is just one - there are more in the article body) also states that "Vance then went even further and claimed that childless people were responsible for the rottenness of the nation’s political discourse". Cortador (talk) 06:15, 14 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
WP:MOTHERJONES needs to be attributed to them and not asserted as objective at the very least. A hostile political news site isn't a better source than a direct quote for BLP LOVECEL 🤍 06:18, 14 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
According to your own link, it "may" need to be attributed. There's so requirement to always add an attribution. As I said above, Mother Jones isn't the only source for this; there are plenty of other sources e.g. here and here. Cortador (talk) 10:12, 14 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
This is not a particularly uncommon talking point of his, so there are sources other than Mother Jones of course. Cortador's CNN article above is a good one. However, in the lead, I think we should just describe his policy positions, rather than give a detailed description of certain quotes from him, so I've trimmed it to just the sentence you mention here. Endwise (talk) 14:54, 14 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I think the "advocating that parents should have more voting power than non-parents" should go back for context, and could be included with "support for increasing the child tax credit", which are effectively the two relevant political positions related to this "childlessness" critique. Being a critic of childlessness is not a political position, so it would be better contextualised into one. I get that there isn't a simple "single phrase" summary way to describe the above suggestions, but I don't think this is reason for omitting it either. I'm not completely opposed to your edit though, the lead is supposed to be a summary after all. CNC (talk) 15:31, 14 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
As an example: "As an outspoken critic of childlessness, he has advocated for increasing voting power and child tax credit for parents." To me that's a relatively simple summary, with better context. Thoughts? CNC (talk) 15:36, 14 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Military Medals

Semi-protected edit request on 9 August 2024

add Iraq Campaign Medal, Global War on Terrorism Medal and National Defense Medal...literally everyone has these medals that has served within the last 20 years or so there is absolutely no way he does not have them. 164.163.189.61 (talk) 03:18, 9 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

If they are so common that apparently no source even bothers listing them, why bother including them? Cortador (talk) 10:20, 9 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Campaign medals are listed in other politicians and historical leaders. Not everyone that serves during these periods necessarily goes to combat to be awarded campaign medals. Angrycommguy (talk) 00:57, 12 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

 Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made. PianoDan (talk) 21:21, 9 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Military Medals & Awards

Someone deleted several of JD Vance's medals and awards as seen HERE.

Here is JD Vance's DD-214 from the USMC as seen HERE.

He received:

Marine Corps Good·Conduct Medal. Navy and Marine Corps Achievement Medal. Iraq Campaign Medal. Sea Service Deployment Ribbon. Global War on Terrorism Service Medal. National Defense Service Medal. Letter of Appreciation (5th Award). Meritorious Mast. Certificate of Appreciation. Rifle Expert Badge (2nd Award). Pistol Expert Badge 66.169.196.156 (talk) 00:35, 12 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Service medals should be omitted but campaign medals should be listed. Angrycommguy (talk) 01:12, 12 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
 Done -- Avi (talk) 01:16, 12 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
The campaign medals are still not shown, likely been edited out again by a bad actor. 151.205.183.212 (talk) 02:08, 13 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Even the complete list of campaign medals is omited Dash Ripone (talk) 01:25, 12 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Is it okay to remove service medals from Democrats as well? 2603:8000:DA00:1751:90F6:558C:1186:3AB7 (talk) 23:02, 12 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
There should be no consideration of political party with this, just the actual facts of what happened. 205.220.215.1 (talk) 01:03, 13 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
The medals should be restored. 71.65.123.105 (talk) 23:56, 12 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Semi-protected edit request on 12 August 2024

Return the list of his service awards that was removed between July and Aug 11.

OMITTED: Navy & MC Achievement Medal Iraq Campaign Medal Sea Svc Deployment Ribbon GWOT Svc Medal Letter of Appreciation (5th awd) Meritorious Mast Cert of Appreciation Rifle Expert Badge (2nd awd) Pistol Expert Badge

His DD-214 is available for reference as you remedy this error. 66.9.76.237 (talk) 00:37, 12 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

 Done -- Avi (talk) 01:17, 12 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Semi-protected edit request on 11 August 2024

It appears some of his medals and awards were removed by editors, including but not limited to: Iraq Campaign Medal, Sea Service Deployment Ribbon, Global War on Terrorism Service Medal, National Defense Service medal. Please repopulate them. As a source, linked below is JD Vance’s DD-214, a direct source.

https://www.documentcloud.org/documents/25030454-resp-docs-1pgred-24-3265

Thank you! Nukey18mon (talk) 00:42, 12 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

At a minimum CAMPAIGN MEDALS should be included. But all earned medals should be listed. There's no reason to exclude that information. Angrycommguy (talk) 01:01, 12 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
agree. it is clear the removal was a political maneuver and done with malice. The medals he has been granted from the USMC are:
Navy and Marine Corps Achievement Medal
Marine Corps Good Conduct Medal
Global War on Terrorism Service Medal
Iraq Campaign Medal
Navy and Marine Corps Sea Service Deployment Ribbon
These are all listed in the sources provided by many in this discussion. 24.206.78.84 (talk) 01:09, 12 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I can see the argument against service medals but let's give those who served credit for their service and sacrifice. Angrycommguy (talk) 01:14, 12 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@Angrycommguy @Nukey18mon: Per the Military Person Template..."any notable awards or decorations the person received; exhaustive lists should be worked into the prose. Separate multiple entries using {{Plainlist}}."
I think a huge aspect of that is notable. Some of those are earned by basically anyone who has served a minimum amount of time. The infobox shouldn't include every award won or else the infobox would never end for some top military people. Wozal (talk) 02:10, 12 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I agree, standard service medals can be listed in the body; whereas notable decorations belong in the infobox. Kcmastrpc (talk) 12:50, 12 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@Wozal, I think notable in that text is meant to be read WP-literally, as in if the award doesn't have a WP-article, it doesn't go in the infobox. But "any" doesn't mean "every". Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 17:25, 12 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Wow, just checking the edit history of when and how these medals got removed and it clearly looks like bad faith. I would highly encourage an Administrator to review this and prevent Wikipedia:Ownership of content of this page, and thusbthe narrative, by a handful of editors that are overrepresented in the amount of edits this article has.
We are better than this.
2601:19E:427E:5BB0:C597:7929:2D40:18C0 (talk) 02:18, 12 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
In case the DD-214 form is not acceptable, here is another source for JD Vance's medals: https://www.military.com/daily-news/2024/07/16/jd-vances-marine-corps-service-would-set-him-apart-most-vice-presidents.html 66.196.23.58 (talk) 01:13, 12 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Semi-protected edit request on 12 August 2024 (2)

1)Marine Corps good conduct medal 2)Global War on Terrorism Sevice Medal 3)Iraq Campaign Medal 4)Navy and Marine Corps Sea Service Deployment Ribbon 2607:F8D8:5:4970:2426:EF13:12FB:4309 (talk) 01:16, 12 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

 Done -- Avi (talk) 01:17, 12 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Removal of information sourced to the DD-214

@Guest2625: has removed information sourced to the DD-214. I believe that removal is a violation of our policies, which in this case would allow it, as discussed on Wikipedia:Biographies of living persons/Noticeboard#J.D. Vance Service Medals. There is bo question oif fact and there is no more impartial or reliable source than that of the US Depeartment of Defense. Sources need not be online. They must be accessible, as this one is and has been received by multitude people who filed the FOIA request. -- Avi (talk) 05:04, 12 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

And where have these people published what they received in response to their FOIA request? Horse Eye's Back (talk) 05:22, 12 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Especially since there's an ongoing discussion, the removal is inappropriate. The main source of concern (as originally formulated) was the lack of source; now that the source has been provided, if any removal of awards should occur, then it should be as the result of a discussion. As I said in the noticeboard discussion, the DD Form 214 is the best source for any information on this subject. TE(æ)A,ea. (talk) 12:26, 12 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    Per the recent Talk:JD_Vance/Archive_2#Non-serious_medals and Talk:JD_Vance/Archive_2#Military_Decorations_and_Awards_that_JD_Vance_would_have: discussions removal is appropriate. Sure, consensus can change. Per sources [3][4], IMO decorations not mentioned there fails WP:PROPORTION, existing is not enough. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 14:18, 12 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    Ping previous participants @ItsRainingCatsAndDogsAndMen@MatthewDalhousie@Cortador@MaximusEditor if you wish to comment. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 14:30, 12 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    Consensus is generally needed for the inclusion of content, not its removal. Removal only requires consensus if there is prior consensus on inclusion, which isn't the case here. Cortador (talk) 14:49, 12 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    To add to this, the current sourcing is weak. One source is Wikisource, which is a user-generated wiki, and of dubious reliability. The other source is Military.com, for whose reliability I can't vouch. That aside, it only mentions all those medials once with the exception of the Marine Corps medial, which is what the article is about. There's still a lack of weight here, because all and by large, sources don't seem to bother reporting on Vance's medals. Cortador (talk) 15:04, 12 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    • Cortador: I don't know where you get the idea that consensus is needed for inclusion; if that were the case, one could not write an article without long discussions about every individual facet of it. As for the DD Form 214, Wikisource is not the source; it just holds a copy of the government document (because it is in the public domain). Similarly, for court opinions, if Wikisource has a copy that version is used for the purpose of reference, and the same for other public-domain government documents like letters from Senators, committee reports, and the text of laws. TE(æ)A,ea. (talk) 15:15, 12 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
      Consensus is always needed. Silence - i.e. no objection from anyone else - is a form of consensus, just a weak one. If you want that document to be used as a source, cite the actual document. Even then, it will be a primary source, and not suitable to establish whether this information needs to be included. Cortador (talk) 15:20, 12 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    Small thing @Cortador military.com has the features of being a reliable source. As seen here the platform has a large supervising editorial team, and have won several national awards for their journalism. MatthewDalhousie (talk) 21:11, 12 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    For the record, the article about the subject in military.com, which is written by an experienced journalist, (and sits under editorial oversight and has won several awards), establishes only the following as decorations have been received by the subject:
    1. Marine Corps Good Conduct Medal
    2. Navy and Marine Corps Achievement Medal
    3. Iraq Campaign Medal
    4. Sea Service Deployment Ribbon
    It also reports the subject received "some conventional honors awarded during the Global War on Terror". My view is wikipedia articles should include all relevant facts about a person. MatthewDalhousie (talk) 21:22, 12 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    Those four awards are "conventional honors." Most Marines will get a Good Conduct Medal for three years of not being a screw up. An Achievement Medal is very common, most Marines will have one if not more after 4 years of service. It's not a combat or valor award. Iraq Campaign Medal is for spending 90 days in country, doing anything. Sea Service is being on a ship for 90 days, another common thing for a Marine.
    I would say none of these are noteworthy. If we have to list "awards" I'd say Iraq Campaign should be the only one, despite being for something quite common for American military personnel serving in the 00's.ItsRainingCatsAndDogsAndMen (talk) 14:34, 14 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • I agree with the statements by Gråbergs Gråa Sång. Facts in a biography of a living person need to be sourced to a reliable source. This means a source, such as a newspaper article by a journalist, who takes responsibility for the accuracy of what they write. So from the two reliable sources there is the Navy and Marine Corps Achievement Medal and Marine Corps Good Conduct Medal. The award infoboxes allow the reader to go up and down in terms of prestige of the different medals. I would only include the Achievement Medal. The Conduct Medal is underwhelming and also sounds underwhelming. --Guest2625 (talk) 14:50, 12 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    • Guest2625: Your concern about reliable sources is nonsensical. This is not a case where we rely on reliable sources because there is no objective truth. For example, there is no roll of post-liberals on which we could find Vance's name, so we must rely on secondary sources' characterization of him as such to make that claim in this article (and in the related article Political positions of JD Vance). However, there is an objective truth as to what medals Vance has received, and the one, singular, official source of that information is the DD Form 214 which I have transcribed on Wikisource. Any media source relating to medals would only be copying this document (or, as is often the case, copying other media articles which eventually lead back to the document). Your comment about a journalist "tak[ing] responsibility for the accuracy" of what is stated is satisfied, because who better than the military would know what awards the military gave him? TE(æ)A,ea. (talk) 15:15, 12 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
      Wikipedia reflects what reliable sources say regarding a topic. A source like that document doesn't contribute to that, because it is a primary source and because verifiability by itself doesn't clear the threshold for inclusion. Cortador (talk) 15:26, 12 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I agree with Kcmasterpc below. Infoboxes should only include notable service awards. Reliable sources help to inform what is a notable award by mentioning it. A primary source can be useful in some cases, however, the primary source provided above I cannot authenticate. The document needs to be posted somewhere that its reliability can be established. Currently, the Trump Campaign has been hacked. Persian hackers could easily post faked documents in some random internet location. For a primary document there needs to be clear traceability of where it came from.
https://www.msnbc.com/ana-cabrera-reports/watch/trump-campaign-says-it-was-hacked-by-iranian-group-216980037882 --Guest2625 (talk) 15:50, 12 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Infobox should only include notable service awards. A good example of how this could be handled is Dwight D. Eisenhower, he only has a couple of distinguished medals, with a link to a table that includes all of his service awards (many of which are cited from primary sources, so I don't see the issue with using DD-214, either). Kcmastrpc (talk) 15:26, 12 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
WP:PRIMARY does not say that primary sources may never be used. Policy item one there says they may be used with care if reputably published. They may be used without placing undue weight, to make a direct statement of fact without analysis, interpretation, synthesis, etc. —ADavidB 15:52, 12 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
And the argument is that adding decorations decent non-primary WP:RS haven't bothered to notice is out of WP:PROPORTION, perhaps especially when added as infobox-only. Yes, we can use primary sources, sometimes. But in this case, per the details of WP:NPOV, should we? IMO, no. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 16:07, 12 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Gråbergs Gråa Sång: Including all medals, which are listed in the official government document, is a neutral representation of objective facts. Listing only some medals is showing an editorial view, which is not a neutral point of view. TE(æ)A,ea. (talk) 16:34, 12 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    On en-WP, existing is not enough, neutral is not enough. We are meant to summarize, so WP:DUE and WP:PROPORTION are relevant too. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 16:39, 12 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    The neutral position here is covering just what is covered by the high quality RS... Both the position that no medals should be included and that all medals should be included appear to be pushing a non-neutral POV. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 17:42, 12 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    Has any editor here suggested for no medals to be included? Also, a neutral POV doesn't mean a middle ground. Cortador (talk) 21:55, 12 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    In this specific context the NPOV is absolutely in the middle ground. There is simply no way to describe including all medals as neutral, thats an absurd proposition which should be laughed at. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 17:34, 15 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    That is not what neutral means on Wikipedia. Cortador (talk) 21:56, 12 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    Including all medals, which are listed in the official government document, is a neutral representation of objective facts. Listing only some medals is showing an editorial view, which is not a neutral point of view.
    More nuance than this is permitted. If we listed every single automatic good-conduct/deployment/overseas service medal and ribbon that Dwight Eisenhower earned, he'd have a very long infobox! Instead we generally stick to the key discretionary awards in the infobox, with the rest going in the article body (in Eisenhower's case, he has so many that even the infobox is a subset of the most significant domestic awards, with other honours - including international honours - relegated to the body).
    In this case, to list things like Good Conduct in the infobox is adding UNDUE weight to those medals given that the infobox is usually reserved for things like Purple Hearts or Silver Stars (see Dan Crenshaw or Chris Kyle).
    It is quite correct that all service awards should be listed in the article neutrally. It does not follow that they all need to be crammed into the infobox. That would present simple service ribbons on a level with other people's Purple Hearts, which is clearly nonsensical and non-neutral. It is appropriate under WP:NPOV to distinguish between automatic "has a pulse" medals and discretionary awards for individual merit (like his Navy & Marine Corp Achievement Medal, which does have a place in the infobox). Hemmers (talk) 10:06, 13 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Support your view here @Kcmastrpc. Only the notable service awards to go in the infobox. Notable being settled by what the reliable sources mostly talk about. So, to my mind, that would include 1. Marine Corps Good Conduct Medal, and 2. Navy and Marine Corps Achievement Medal. Other decorations can be mentioned in the body so long as we have the reliable sources, but that seems to be in hand from what I've seen above.MatthewDalhousie (talk) 22:28, 12 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Notable being settled by what the reliable sources mostly talk about. So, to my mind, that would include 1. Marine Corps Good Conduct Medal, and 2. Navy and Marine Corps Achievement Medal.
I think this is a bit tricky. Vance doesn't have a long list of service awards, so of course when journalists write an article they say "Achievement medal, oh and good conduct", because there's nothing else to write about. But that's conflating a discretionary award for meritorious service with an automatic award for not committing a crime! Yes, it's notable and that gets it into the article. That doesn't mean it needs to be in the infobox.
It's reasonable to say that automatic ribbons and medals like Good Conduct have no place in the infobox which is widely used for discretionary awards like Purple Heart, Silver Star, DSC, etc. Yes, he has a Good Conduct Medal. Shove it in the body. Most former service personnel have a good conduct medal. To present Vance's front-and-centre in the infobox is affording UNDUE weight, as if it is comparable to his Achievement medal (or any other discretionary award). Hemmers (talk) 10:14, 13 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@Hemmers, you're exactly the kind of editor who makes Wiki enjoyable. Grateful for your wit and your clear point of view. In fact, I feel personally persuaded that it's probably true that 'when journalists write an article they say "Achievement medal, oh and good conduct', because there's nothing else to write about." However my friend, what you think, or I think, is quite beside the point. We can only go with what the secondary, reliable sources say. And here we need to acknowledge that even the military specialist journals, (such as this one in Task and Purpose written by an accredited journalist who also served in uniform) make mention of the fact that that Vance has several awards and they make particular mention of the Marine Corps Good Conduct Medal, and the Navy and Marine Corps Achievement Medal. Again, if you and I were writing the article from scratch in a newspaper, I would go with your suggestion. But we're editing for Wikipedia, and we need to go with what the reliable sources say. In short, I believe the two medals currently mentioned in the infobox should stay, and a mention of those two, and the additional awards, need to be in the body. MatthewDalhousie (talk) 00:36, 14 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@MatthewDalhousie - I think this is a good start, but I'd like to push back a little. Guidance for the Template:Infobox military person states the following
"awards – optional – any notable awards or decorations the person received; exhaustive lists should be worked into the prose. Separate multiple entries using {{Plainlist}}."
What notable means seems to be debated upon users. Some argue that it's any award that has a standalone wiki page, but I'm not sure based on what I've seen if that's the original intent. I'd wager that most awards have a standalone page even if they aren't written well. Listing all awards (regardless of where) would likely be a violation of WP:INDISCRIMINATE and WP:VNOT. That is to say, While information must be verifiable for inclusion in an article, not all verifiable information must be included.
But what must be included then? My original mind went to see what other military infoboxes say. I came across Charles A. Flynn, Michael Flynn and Charles Q. Brown Jr. There are a number of medals which they should have based on their ranking on the wars they've served, but none of those are listed. Neither are any good conduct medals.
Then I thought, what about people who are of a similar rank to Vance? What does the structure there look like? I found Jason Dunham who served during the Iraq War, but doesn't list any "lesser medals" or "automatic medals" for serving x amount of time or staying out of trouble for 3 years. Ruben Gallego (who I didn't realize served in the military until now) served 4 years and doesn't list any medals in his infobox, even some which would be given for automatically given for being deployed.
And then it clicked. There was overlap within the infobox which I believe reveals the intent behind what's "notable" for the military infobox. It's not the standard of having a standalone page, but rather a medal that isn't automatically given to you for being deployed somewhere, for serving x amount of time or for staying out of trouble, but rather those that show you've gone far beyond of what is expected of you and is considered "notable" by the military. It's a harder standard to meet, but it seems to be the criteria that every other page has followed. Treating all of Vance's awards is "notable" is a disservice and I believe would go against the intent of the infobox itself. Wozal (talk) 01:24, 14 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Great to hear from you @Wozal. I know some editors have an allergic reaction to arguments from other articles. Personally, I don't mind you bringing up articles from elsewhere, and looking at what makes them solid. What's good for the goose, however, must be good for the gander. And if we're asking if articles mention a Marine being recognised with a Good Conduct Medal, for example, then if I find one, such as this article about the legendary Larry Wilcox of CHiPs fame, then that must be taken into account. I guess I could find several dozen such examples, of articles about people that feature good conduct awards in the infobox.
But let's just aim to make this article as good as can be. Do I take your argument to be that the Navy and Marine Corps Achievement Medal should appear in the JD Vance infobox, and the various other medals (I think there are three or four) should be given perfunctory mention in the body. Also, as per the convention seen in many other BLPs, that the bar ribbons might appear at the bottom of the piece.
Your thoughts and recommendations, please.
MatthewDalhousie (talk) 23:33, 14 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@MatthewDalhousie: I recall that either this article or Walz's article mentioned something about the typical medals associated with length of service and rank. This seemed like an effective way to avoid listing every medal awarded while still acknowledging that more medals might exist, without leading readers to assume that all medals are equally notable. According to the guidelines, verifiability alone doesn’t justify inclusion, so it may not be appropriate to include every medal in the article. Since our goal is to highlight the most significant aspects, listing all common medals might give the impression that they hold the same weight as more prestigious ones, which simply isn't true but does not diminish from the fact that they served.
It feels like we need clearer guidelines on what constitutes a "notable" medal and need more information (possibly from other wikipedia groups that focus on the military?), especially given the extensive debate surrounding the "rank" field in the infobox. Personally, I think we're aligned on this. Notable medals (though the specific threshold for this is still unclear) should go in the infobox, less common medals should be mentioned in the narrative, and routine medals could be referenced in a note about typical awards for a given length of service and rank. Otherwise, there’s a risk of this section becoming disproportionate compared to the rest of the article. Wozal (talk) 04:00, 19 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Yep, I think we aim for the Navy and Marine Corps Achievement Medal in the infobox, and three or four in the main body. I don't mind having the ribbons at the very bottom of the article. MatthewDalhousie (talk) 04:06, 19 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Why do you keep deleting his medals?

JD Vance also earned a global war on terrorism service medal, an Iraq campaign medal, and a sea deployment ribbon. Isn’t Wikipedia supposed to be an unbiased representation of fact and not some editor’s political hangups or paid-for shilling? 2600:1700:34D0:9840:1DBB:5CFC:AB2A:B2A9 (talk) 16:28, 12 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Because they're not outstanding or distinguished service awards. If I had time I'd create a table of service awards similar to Dwight D. Eisenhower#Honors, but I have work to do. Kcmastrpc (talk) 16:31, 12 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Also, WP:OTHERCONTENT. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 16:34, 12 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Yea, that's fair, but I don't see why we shouldn't list (in table form) a military service members awards in their BLP, seems generally WP:DUE. Per Template:Infobox_military_person -> any notable awards or decorations the person received; exhaustive lists should be worked into the prose. Separate multiple entries using Plainlist. Kcmastrpc (talk) 16:49, 12 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
You can probably find some WP-articles that have that, and some that don't, like Dan Crenshaw/Chris Kyle. I don't think it's a one size fits all situation. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 17:12, 12 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Btw, I don't think "any" means "every" here, the message is more "don't include awards without WP-articles in the infobox." Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 17:19, 12 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
FWIW, most of the "non-notable" medals have their own WP-article; but I digress, I think we agree in principle not everything needs to go in the infobox. Style-wise, I particularly like how it's handled on Chris Kyle's page. Kcmastrpc (talk) 19:51, 12 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
the message is more "don't include awards without WP-articles in the infobox.
Unfortunately, most medals and ribbons seem to have stand-alone WP articles, so this isn't a good measure for infobox inclusion. Most of them are garbage stubs just rehashing (borderline plagiarising) the uniform codes and military notes (e.g. Recruiting Service Ribbon or Overseas Service Ribbon. 100% .mil or .gov citations). The longer ones tend to be WP:GUIDE with wear instructions. These articles generally fail GNG since they're entirely based on primary sources and amount to WP:INDISCRIMINATE (i.e. it would be better to have one article listing the awards, and if people want minutiae they can read the uniform code themselves).
In that vein, my view is that the only stuff making it into an infobox should be key and notable info - major discretionary awards like Crenshaw's Purple Heart or Kyle's Silver Star obviously qualify, as would Victoria Cross or Legion d'Honeur for UK/France. Automatic "has a pulse" medals should just be mentioned in the body. It's a neutrality issue to put them front-and-centre because to a layman reader it almost presents the subject as having won some notable awards for valient service when in fact they've done nothing that a million other service personnel haven't. It's clearly NPOV to list a Good Conduct Medal in the same place as other people have Purple Hearts, as if they're somehow comparable awards. Totally WP:UNDUE. Hemmers (talk) 09:46, 13 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Emphasis on "notable awards". Cortador (talk) 17:22, 12 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
See
Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 16:31, 12 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
On that point, is it prudent to include the "Good Conduct Medal?" This award is automatic in a fashion similar to the "Global War on Terrorism" medal and the "National Defense Ribbon." Every Marine is given this medal every 3 years of service unless they commit a crime. Deagonx (talk) 16:55, 12 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I have no strong opinion on that, but Stars and Stripes [5] and Task & Purpose [6] mentioned it, so it seems ok-ish. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 17:43, 12 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Which medals to include?

There seems to be a protracted dispute over the medal-list issue. Previous discussions resulted in imprecise consensuses which in part were based on a lack of documentation, which is no longer an issue. I list below the medals he has received, with citations where they are found. If you find more citations, feel free to add them. The purpose of this list is to facilitate a !vote/consensus discussion as to which medals should be shown in the infobox. Here's the list:

  1. Marine Corps Good-Conduct Medal[1][2][3]
  2. Navy and Marine Corps Achievement Medal[1][2][3]
  3. Iraq Campaign Medal[1][2][4]
  4. Sea Service Deployment Ribbon[1][2][4]
  5. Global War on Terrorism Service Medal[1][2][4]
  6. National Defense Service Medal[1]
  7. Letter of Appreciation (5th Awd)[1]
  8. Meritorious Mast[1]
  9. Certificate of Appreciation[1]
  10. Rifle Expert Badge (2nd Awd)[1]
  11. Pistol Expert Badge[1]

References

  1. ^ a b c d e f g h i j k "DD Form 214: Hamel, James David" (April 25, 2011). United States Department of Defense.
  2. ^ a b c d e Lawrence, Drew F. (July 16, 2024). "JD Vance's Marine Corps Service Would Set Him Apart from Most Vice Presidents". Military.com.
  3. ^ a b White, Matt (July 15, 2024). "J.D. Vance is first veteran on Presidential ticket since John McCain". Task & Purpose.
  4. ^ a b c Kukreti, Shweta (August 12, 2024). "Has Wikipedia deleted JD Vance's wartime medals, awards from his page? Netizens say 'They literally stole his valor'". Hindustan Times.

In addition, the deletion of the mention of the medals has attracted media attention: Has Wikipedia deleted JD Vance's wartime medals, awards from his page?; Wikipedia scrubs JD Vance's military honors, sparking bias controversy. TE(æ)A,ea. (talk) 18:36, 12 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

We generally only include notable awards. The infobox isn't meant to list every single commendation a service member receives. If you look at other politicians who served, most of them don't have awards listed at all, the rest only have one or two awards listed in their infobox. For instance Pete Buttigieg only has his "Joint Service Commendation Medal" listed.
Vance's awards are common to nearly all service members which makes them unremarkable for the purposes of the infobox, such as the "National Defense Service Medal" which is granted to everyone who enlisted after 9/11. The only slight exception to this is the NAM, but this is still something most Marines get as an "end of tour" award when they finish a contract.
I would say it is probably best to not list any medals in his infobox, or to only list the Navy and Marine Corps Achievement Medal. Deagonx (talk) 19:07, 12 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Id argue his Iraq Campaign Medal is notable. 47.198.11.19 (talk) 22:29, 12 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
This is very true. These contentious edits don't see to be done in good faith and have mostly been pushed by one single editor. Wikipedia:Ownership of content and Wikipedia:Neutral point of view apply here. 73.123.180.173 (talk) 22:38, 12 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
His tour in Iraq is listed in the infobox under the "Battles/Wars" item. It's assumed that he has a campaign medal (and overseas deployment ribbon, and the rest) for that tour, just like every other service member who deployed. We don't list out individual tour ribbons in (say) Chris Kyle. Just his discretionary medals. As far as I can tell, Vance has earned precisely one discretionary medal for meritorious service - the NAM Achievement medal. That, and that alone should be in the infobox. To add Good Conduct in a space normally used for Purple Hearts/Silver Stars/etc is WP:UNDUE weighting and fails NPOV. Hemmers (talk) 10:36, 13 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
The infobox is a distillate of the rest of the article, so no award not mentioned in body-text should be mentioned there. At present, all medals in the body-text is in the info-box, which is a bit odd, but acceptable-ish. Throw out the DD Form, apart from not being reliably published (per link given), there is no reason to use a WP:BLPPRIMARY source here, there is an abundance of secondary WP:RS on this person. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 10:13, 13 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
And another source:[1] Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 10:29, 13 August 2024 (UTC) [reply]

References

  1. ^ Shkolnikova, Svetlana (July 16, 2024). "Vance credits service in Marine Corps for teaching him 'how to live like an adult'". Stars and Stripes. Archived from the original on July 20, 2024. Retrieved July 20, 2024.
I agree, use of a DD form violates WP:BLPPRIMARY; secondary sources will tell us which medals are significant enough to include. We don't need to mention the ones that everybody gets if RS don't mention them. Levivich (talk) 12:55, 13 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I haven't been able to find any secondary sources that reference the DD form, and until such time, it should remain uncited. If a reliable source cites it, I would assert the policy exception of WP:BLPPRIMARY applies -- Where primary-source material has been discussed by a reliable secondary source, it may be acceptable to rely on it to augment the secondary source, subject to the restrictions of this policy, with the restricted subjects being personal information like DOB, Address, income, etal., service medals would probably not apply to such restrictions. Kcmastrpc (talk) 13:08, 13 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Unless mentioned by your hypothetical secondary source, medals from the DD form would still be out of WP:PROPORTION. And if they are mentioned by your hypothetical secondary source, the DD form would be unnecessary, and still not reliably published, unless provided by your hypothetical secondary source. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 17:46, 13 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Fwiw, [7]. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 17:48, 13 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 12 August 2024 (2)

Please add back in all of this mans military awards. Fltmech1 (talk) 19:09, 12 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

 Not done for now: please establish a consensus for this alteration before using the {{Edit extended-protected}} template. – Muboshgu (talk) 19:13, 12 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 12 August 2024 (4)

Restore J.D. Vance's full list of military honors that were edited out in late July 2024. Full list:

Navy and Marine Corps Achievement Medal
Marine Corps Good Conduct Medal
Global War on Terrorism Service Medal
Iraq Campaign Medal
Navy and Marine Corps Sea Service Deployment Ribbon

Not a good look removing them, Wikipedia. Marbran (talk) 21:58, 12 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

  • Closed.—Edit requests are for non-controversial changes. For a change to the medals given in the list, please participate in the discussion above. Once a consensus has been reached in that discussion, such medals as are thought appropriate to be added will be added. TE(æ)A,ea. (talk) 22:25, 12 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    You reverted my edit and claimed vandalism. This is factually wrong. Just by reading the summary I wrote on each you'd know that.
    Given you are not acting in good faith I am formally asking you to refrain from editing my comments or edits or from posting on my TP. @TE(æ)A,ea
    73.123.180.173 (talk) 22:58, 12 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I absolutely agree! Restore what was removed. 67.221.212.8 (talk) 05:04, 13 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 13 August 2024

Campaign Medals are valid medals and should be included. Military regulation require that if any medal is worn, all must be worn. Campaign Medals are awards for service (just like an achievement or commendation medal they mark a worthy accomplishment by the servicemember receiving same).

Certificates are less than medals and need not be included.

Service Ribbons should be listed in the body text, but not the summary box. Rweicker (talk) 00:51, 13 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@Rweicker Not done for the time being; there's a fairly stable consensus currently that including literally all of his medals clutters the infobox and doesn't at all fit with the way this infobox is used in essentially every other article. Please go look at other articles of military personnel (especially ones who had a notable career other than the military). "Military regulation require [sic] that if any medal is worn, all must be worn" is a creative but completely orthogonal argument to the overwhelming sitewide consensus on how this infobox should be used. TheTechnician27 (Talk page) 05:25, 13 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Off-site Collusion to edit article.

Found a post on Reddit calling out a specific editor and telling others to edit the page. This seems like an issue and I'm not sure where to bring it up.

  • Edited out external link*

Hooples (talk) 11:29, 12 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

This isn't really an issue. WP:OFF and WP:OFFWIKI clearly articulate that this is perfectly fine (unless it becomes disruptive). I'd further encourage you to remove the link to the discussion as this could be construed as WP:NOSOCIAL. Kcmastrpc (talk) 12:44, 12 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks for the response, will edit out the link. Still learning, I just know this is a contentious thing. Hooples (talk) 12:54, 12 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Placing the link back as a no-participation link, as this isn't at all what WP:NOSOCIAL means. Kc, please stop trying to wikilawyer. TheTechnician27 (Talk page) 13:32, 12 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
WP:ASPERSIONS aside, my understanding is that directing people to such discussions runs the risk of WP:OUTING. I'm concerned about the WP:SAFETY of editors. Please WP:AGF. Kcmastrpc (talk) 13:36, 12 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I think you're taking it too far, please make a better effort in the future. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 19:36, 12 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@Hooples - I think this might be a case for Wikipedia:Dispute resolution. Can you start a case there for their review? Based off the external link, there was intent and it might even be considered disruptive. Per Wikipedia:Off-wiki policy discussion, ""Consensus" in the Wikipedia context means consensus amongst comments posted on Wikipedia. Off-site discussions do not contribute to "consensus"." Wozal (talk) 15:23, 12 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
No one here is suggesting that consensus was gained from the off-site discussion, can you point out where this is the case? Kcmastrpc (talk) 15:28, 12 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
See many posts above.
Infoboxes often form consensus in how they're used to retain consistency. Per the Military Person Template..."any notable awards or decorations the person received; exhaustive lists should be worked into the prose. Separate multiple entries using {{Plainlist}}."
Since edits appear to have been made from off-site discussion, this goes against the consensus which was already established here. If someone wanted to change long-standing consensus, they should be posting here; not posting remarks offsite which seem to be attacking users here and then changing things to fit whatever narrative they want. Wozal (talk) 15:51, 12 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
The "consensus" until twenty-four hours ago was clearly to include the medals, as they had been there for ages without controversy. It's only now that comparing military service has become a problem for the Democratic Party that "neutral" editors -- all of two of them -- came in here to scrub the article and claim that their politically sanitized work is now "consensus." Funny how that works! 2601:600:817F:16F0:B462:B3E9:7025:CF2 (talk) 16:01, 12 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
It's pretty clear based on both what an infobox is supposed to accomplish and based on the well-established consensus around the use of the template that "awards" are meant to be reserved for the most notable ones, not a completely exhaustive list of them. It's pretty evident that this is manufactured outrage from an offsite brigading attempt to use Wikipedia as a political soapbox rather than as a serious encyclopedia. The sort of consensus being discussed here is more broad than just the scope of this article. TheTechnician27 (Talk page) 16:18, 12 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
The claim of including all medals "until twenty-four hours" ago was not what consensus was. Looking over the article over that time period disproves that. The off-site discussion wouldn't be an issue if it didn't go against what the infobox norms are. It's beneficial for editors to acquaint themselves with the rules of infoboxes before trying to change how they're being used, especially when those infoboxes include what should be noted within them and how they should be noted, as Ive already explained here. Wozal (talk) 16:21, 12 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Noting some more off-WP stuff at patriots.win. I'm mentioned, which may be part of this spike. Should we add a talkpage banner or something? Ping Ad Orientem if you have a comment. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 07:22, 13 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The amount of conspiracy theories bandied about as facts by users on that site (and to a lesser extent, Reddit in r/Conservative) is disturbing. Is there any precedent for WP:ECP or WP:SEMI of a talk page? Seeing this makes me wonder if the zombie accounts popping up after 10+ years of inactivity and new users showing up in #The couch thing is somehow related to this. —Locke Cole • t • c 14:32, 15 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Photograph of Vance in drag

I just made this edit [8] if anyone has an opinion. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 16:23, 12 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks, definitely seems WP:UNDUE -- this does not need an entire section, and we don't need to be using WP:HEADLINES either. Kcmastrpc (talk) 16:24, 12 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I agree based on the quality and quantity of the existing sources that until it becomes more widely covered, it shouldn't be included as WP:UNDUE. Specifically, I think that it should not currently be included at all, but moreover, I think that giving it an entire subsection such as the one Gråbergs removed is – at present – completely insane. The only outlets providing coverage for it are Newsweek (has become very tabloid-esque since 2013), PinkNews (generally reliable, but a pretty niche outlet given the overall scope of the article), The Daily Beast (fine for reliability for something like this, but quite opinionated in their coverage), and The New Republic (generally reliable like PinkNews, but similarly biased in their coverage; in my experience, they'll put out an article about basically any and every very minor aspect of the election). I think having the subsection there really just pollutes an otherwise pretty robust article, and it stands in contrast with the 'couch' subsection simply because that one has a pool of frankly dozens of high-quality sources that can and have been pulled from. TheTechnician27 (Talk page) 16:45, 12 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Definitly due somewhere on the page, but maybe not a whole section. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 17:44, 12 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
It is undue at this time. – Muboshgu (talk) 18:46, 12 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Entirely UNDUE and does not belong on this page. EvergreenFir (talk) 18:51, 12 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I know the consensus is clear but I have to chime in that I agree. Undue for now, and will remain so unless actually covered in great detail more than "oooh, look, we found photos of him in a wig!" ser! (chat to me - see my edits) 19:31, 12 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
You mean like this coverage[9]? Horse Eye's Back (talk) 19:39, 12 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
What I mean is coverage in multiple RSs which is in more depth than just "We found old photos of this guy". If it goes on to impact the election in some meaningful way, or goes on to have some sort of cultural impact, yeah by all means include, but until then it's a mere piece of trivia. ser! (chat to me - see my edits) 13:14, 13 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
All of the coverage we have is more in-depth than "We found old photos of this guy." If it does the things you say then it would be fully notable for a stand alone page, not just due for inclusion here (you're clearly using the wrong standard) Horse Eye's Back (talk) 16:40, 13 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
What @Ser! is referring to is lasting impact such as Justin Trudeau blackface controversy, which btw, is barely maintained as a redirect to some very convoluted prose. Currently the "RS"'s reporting on this are not mainstream and until such time there is evidence to the contrary this is likely to be a Nothingburger and mere WP:PUFFERY. Kcmastrpc (talk) 16:47, 13 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Pretty much that, yeah. ser! (chat to me - see my edits) 16:50, 13 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
So when the sources talk about the relevence of this in the context of Vance's political positions you don't read that part? I'm just not seeing how you get to an understanding that the coverage isn't a lot more than "oooh, look, we found photos of him in a wig!" Horse Eye's Back (talk) 17:12, 13 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
In the opinion of one interviewed columnist, yeah. Sure, him dressing as a woman can be construed as drag (not everyone who throws on a wig and a skirt is doing drag), which can be tied into LGBT issues, which he has contrasting positions on if you take it as that. Maybe he said some anti-drag things - I can't find any myself. But the coverage for the most part (excluding your honourable OUT piece) remains sensationalist, and the consensus from this talk page remains clearly against including it. ser! (chat to me - see my edits) 17:29, 13 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
The elaboration into Vance's political history being relevent seems to be in all the sources, not just that one. Vance's campaign has also confirmed that the photos are authentic. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 17:33, 13 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
These seem to be mainstream sources in the topic area (LGBTQ issues)... Even if they weren't we count coverage from reliable sources the same as long as the area is within their expertise. We don't weight mainstream coverage higher than specialized coverage when it comes to due weight. (I also don't think that puffery would apply even if everything you said was correct, for it to be puffery the information would have to promote Vance) Horse Eye's Back (talk) 17:09, 13 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Undue and not covered by high-quality RS.
73.123.180.173 (talk) 22:35, 12 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Category removal discussion: Anti-Ukrainian sentiment and Natalism

I think we should remove the "Anti-Ukrainian sentiment" and "Natalism" categories from Vance's article. I've been looking at the BLP and overcategorization guidelines, and I don't think it's correct to include these categories. In particular, "Anti-Ukranian sentiment" seems very inappropriate, while I can see some arguments for the "natalism" category.

WP:BLPSTYLE says to avoid "contentious labels, loaded language, or terms that lack precision." These categories feel like they're, at best, walking a fine line there. Particularly "Anti-Ukrainian Sentiment", which suggests a sentiment that is against people of that particular nationality. If the argument is that Vance's statements about the funding of Ukraine justify this categorization, I disagree. There's a clear and important distinction between a political stance on foreign aid and personal sentiment towards a nation or its people. The category "Anti-Ukrainian sentiment" could be interpreted as the latter, which isn't necessarily supported by the sources.

WP:BLPCAT states that "Category names do not carry disclaimers or modifiers, so the case for each content category must be made clear by the article text and its verifiable reliable sources." I don't think the current text really justifies these specific categories. I see some mention of his positions on Ukraine funding and comments on children/childlessness, but nothing that clearly stamps his page as something to be included in "natalism" or "Ukrainian sentiment".

If there is something to say about his positions related to Ukraine and "natalism", we can cover this in the article text without needing these specific categories.

What do you all think? I'm open to discussion on this. If you disagree, could you point to specific policy justifications for keeping these categories? ballpointzen (talk) 18:44, 12 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

  • From Anti-Ukrainian sentiment, the main article for the category: "Anti-Ukrainian sentiment ... is animosity towards Ukrainians, Ukrainian culture, the Ukrainian language, Ukraine as a nation, or all of the above." I don't think that Vance's opposing military aid to Ukraine constitutes animosity towards the country, the nation, the people, &c. That category should definitely be removed. As to Natalism: "Natalism ... is a policy paradigm or personal value that promotes the reproduction of human life as an important objective of humanity". He has shown support for natalism, and could be described as natalist. However, the "Natalism" category does not include every politician who has ever s hown support for natalism; in fact, it includes very few. I also think that it's fairly clear that he should be removed from that category, as well. TE(æ)A,ea. (talk) 18:55, 12 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    This happens often with any politician whose expressed any kind of objection to funding of Ukraine's war effort. I'm removing it (just like I do with other politicians who express similar views). Kcmastrpc (talk) 20:01, 12 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    This isn't just about "expressing any kind of objection to funding of Ukraine's war effort"; Vance routinely spreads Russian anti-Ukrainian disinformation, including a completely debunked conspiracy theory about yachts and claiming that Ukraine is perhaps the most corrupt nation in the world. Defining anti-Ukrainian sentiment as sentiment against Ukraine as a nation (as we do), it's very obvious this category is appropriate here. Moreover, Vance's stances on natalism include calling those who choose not to have children sociopaths and believes they should be treated as second-class citizens – wherein those who don't have kids should have less weight to their votes and should be taxed more than those who are childless. Re-adding anti-Ukrainian sentiment accordingly. TheTechnician27 (Talk page) 20:12, 12 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    TheTechnician27: This is a good example of why it shouldn't be added; your claim that he expresses "anti-Ukrainian sentiment," based on those statements, is incorrect in my view. Every one of those statements very clearly goes to American military aid to Ukraine; by defining criticism of Ukraine military funding as an instance of anti-Ukrainian sentiment, you make the same error as the "working definition" in assuming any criticism related to a country as an instance of racial, national, or ethnic offense. Your argument is only that "it's very obvious this category is appropriate here," but as I said, all of the statement identified in the Politico article are criticisms of U.S. monetary support to Ukraine. I don't think it's appropriate to characterize such criticism as "anti-Ukrainian sentiment." The same can be said about natalism; while he supports natalism, many do, and it is not a good use of the category to include any public figure who has ever said something which can be categorized as being in favor of some natalist opinion. Apparently, practice is that their must be consensus to include, and especially with this BLP, I've removed both categories. TE(æ)A,ea. (talk) 22:33, 12 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    TheTechnician27 — Please review Anti-Ukrainian sentiment, It pertains to sentiment against the Ukrainian people, language and culture, not to any misgivings about the government or any involved military.and the half trillion in funding the U.S. is going to fork over. Vance indeed said, "I admire the brave Ukrainians ... but let’s not mistake the courage of Ukrainian troops on the ground with the fact that they have the most corrupt leadership and government in Europe..." --even POLITICO said, "Ukraine is quite and since he clearly sicorrupt, despite efforts by the government to clean up the country". And the issue over yachts means nothing in terns of sentiment against the Ukrainians..Kcmastrpc had it right. -- Gwillhickers (talk) 22:29, 12 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    Thanks all. Let's just focus on making sure we're aligned with the guidelines, particularly WP:BLP, WP:BLPCAT and WP:COP.
    On "Anti-Ukrainian Sentiment":
    For purposes of the policies in WP:COP, it's important to make sure that this category is neutral, verifiable and based on defining characteristics. I don't see "Anti-Ukrainian Sentiment" as a neutral or verifiable category, so I'm not sure we even need to get to "defining".
    Based on what @TE(æ)A,ea. and @Gwillhickers have already cited above, the category "Anti-Ukrainian sentiment" is intended to reflect animosity towards Ukrainians, their culture, or Ukraine as a nation. Vance’s statements regarding Ukraine’s government and funding of Ukraine seem to reflect political positions rather than personal animosity toward Ukrainians as a people or culture. The reply from @TheTechnician27, respectfully, seems to base this categorization on deduction/inference from Vance's alleged. comments about yachts and the corruption of the Ukraine government. WP:COPDEF warns against categorizing people based on deduction or inference.
    WP:COP also says "A term that the person or their cultural group does not accept for themselves is not neutral even if it remains the most widely used term among outsiders. Try to avoid category names that could be seen in a stigmatizing way. When in doubt, err on the side of respect." This seems to clearly apply here, unless someone can offer evidence that Vance accepts for himself the label of having "Anti-Ukrainian Sentiment". Otherwise, this is a stigmatizing category that makes him out to be xenophobic and/or a racist, which is against the policies.
    On "Natalism":
    BLP:CAT suggests that categories must be well-supported by the article text and verifiable reliable sources. I haven't seen this connection made by anyone yet. The current consensus seems to lean towards excluding categories that don't clearly align with the criteria outlined in our guidelines.
    Next Steps:
    I invite further input from anyone who can point to specific policies or sources that clearly support these categories. Otherwise, we should proceed with caution and favor removal to ensure adherence to BLP/COP guidelines.
    ballpointzen (talk) 15:05, 13 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    You keep saying that, yet every time you do you leave our the fourth point in the article you linked to: "Ukraine as a nation". Cortador (talk) 08:36, 15 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Agree with TE(æ)A,ea. and Ballpointzen. Thanks for the feedback. Just a friendly reminder to all... Too many times I've seen discussions where a consensus is sought for something that clearly isn't so. Consensus can not create facts, and the facts are that Anti-Ukrainian sentiment, as outlined pertains to sentiment against the Ukrainian people, language and culture. Nothing that Vance has said can even be construed as sentiment against the Ukrainian people and culture, as, once again, his comments are directed at a corrupt government and the enormous amount of money the US is prepared to hand over. Virtually any government in the world can be criticized for something -- pointing this out doesn't amount to sentiment against culture, race, religion, etc, and no consensus can change that fact, anymore than we can get a consensus to say the sun rises in the west. Since no one, including the news, has come up with anything that Vance has ever said against the Ukrainian people and culture, and since he indeed said, "I admire the brave Ukrainians ..", we shouldn't even be having this discussion. -- Gwillhickers (talk) 19:04, 13 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

There's an "or" in there, it's not necessary for all of those things to be present for someone to be categorized as that, as @Cortador noted, it also includes "Ukraine as a nation". —Locke Cole • t • c 14:46, 15 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Yes there's an or in there. Here is the entire opening lede statement: "Anti-Ukrainian sentiment, Ukrainophobia or anti-Ukrainianism is animosity towards Ukrainians, Ukrainian culture, the Ukrainian language, Ukraine as a nation, or all of the above. A nation is a group of people. Nothing's changed. The category was inappropriate. -- Gwillhickers (talk) 22:59, 16 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The "Natalism" category keeps coming up in some form, whether it's Natalist politicians or Natalism; I believe the same arguments made above apply to either. While some sources discuss JD Vance's position on Natalist views, currently, there is no prose in the BLP that makes a direct link to him being a Natalist. I'm sure such prose could be introduced, but a) does it need to be to support such a category and/or b) would such prose be WP:DUE? Kcmastrpc (talk) 18:43, 15 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

What policy or guideline based argumnet made above would apply to the Natalist politician category? Just because you disagree with what the prose in this and the daughter article (which makes its way into this article through an excerpt) say doesn't mean that they don't make that link. To answer your questions... A it is already included... B such prose is currently included and due. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 15:56, 19 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Criticism of the government is not the same as criticism of the Ukrainian nation. A nation is a group of people, not a land mass or a government. Where has Vance said anything disparaging or prejudicial against the Ukrainian people? -- Gwillhickers (talk) 22:46, 16 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
One thing I find interesting about this debate is Wikipedia's article is being used for the exclusion of Anti-Ukrainian sentiment which reads as follows: Anti-Ukrainian sentiment, Ukrainophobia or anti-Ukrainianism is animosity towards Ukrainians, Ukrainian culture, the Ukrainian language, Ukraine as a nation, or all of the above.
However, the sentence of Natalist views is being ignored. For the record, the first sentence of that article reads: "Natalism (also called pronatalism or the pro-birth position) is a policy paradigm or personal value that promotes the reproduction of human life as an important objective of humanity and therefore advocates high birthrate"
In a different post within this talk page, I've posted the following, which I believe not only covers the first sentence but also has articles which express his view as such, as well as aligns well with the article in question:
"It's hard to ignore that this has been picked up by multiple media outlets that can be seen at the following: Washington Post, NYMAG/Intelligencer, National Catholic Register, Vox, The Hill among others. Presented within a larger context, this helps us gain a better understanding of what it means to say that Vance is an outspoken critic of childlessness. Statements like the ones on raising grandchildren is ‘whole purpose of postmenopausal female, making judgement calls on those without children, "childless cat ladies" reflect on why we're starting to see why the media is seeing him as having pro-natalism views. See Business Insider, Axios, The New Yorker, New York Times (which mentions For Mr. Vance and other Republicans like him, provisions like the child tax credit are part of a broader “pro-natalist” project encouraging women to have more children — a key plank of a family-oriented, conservative social vision."
I think that should cover that category pretty well. Wozal (talk) 16:05, 19 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Because WP:BLPCAT and multiple editors have opposed its inclusion. Is being a natalist controversial? I don't know, but I don't see it standing out as a particular important aspect of this individuals biography. Kcmastrpc (talk) 16:14, 19 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
From an earlier post:
"The "Natalism" category keeps coming up in some form, whether it's Natalist politicians or Natalism; I believe the same arguments made above apply to either. While some sources discuss JD Vance's position on Natalist views, currently, there is no prose in the BLP that makes a direct link to him being a Natalist. I'm sure such prose could be introduced, but a) does it need to be to support such a category and/or b) would such prose be WP:DUE?"
I've provided sources which discuss Vance's position on Natalist views. There are also currently sources within the article which discuss those views, as such, it appears those concerns have been addressed.
It now appears that the goal line has shifted now that the original questions have been answered. As @Horse Eye's Back mentioned, "What policy or guideline based argumnet made above would apply to the Natalist politician category? Just because you disagree with what the prose in this and the daughter article (which makes its way into this article through an excerpt) say doesn't mean that they don't make that link. To answer your questions... A it is already included... B such prose is currently included and due." Wozal (talk) 16:30, 19 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 12 August 2024 (3)


98.237.32.169 (talk) 21:54, 12 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Our Ohio Renewal

The first paragraph of this needs better sourcing. At the moment it seems to have a bunch of OR. Nil Einne (talk) 00:54, 13 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@Nil Einne Can you offer a specific example? Everything in that section appears to be cited to highly reliable sources. TheTechnician27 (Talk page) 05:14, 13 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
How so? The only sources given for these two sentences are archives captures of the website. Perhaps this info is in one of the other sources used elsewhere I didn't check, but at the very least the inline cites need to be improved. The archive captures should never be the sole inline source for anything as it makes it seem like editors are performing OR

According to a 2017 archived capture of the nonprofit's website, the members of the advisory board were Keith Humphreys, Jamil Jivani, Yuval Levin, and Sally Satel. According to a 2020 capture of the website, those four remained in those positions throughout the organization's existence.

Nil Einne (talk) 10:56, 13 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I just did a quick check, and I didn't find any mention of 'humph' in any of the other sources given in the paragraph. Perhaps the info is in some other source elsewhere, but I'm thoroughly unconvinced that the paragraph is "cited to highly reliable sources" when 2 out of 5 of the sentences seem to come from editor analysis of archive captures of websites. Nil Einne (talk) 11:03, 13 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

JD VANCE’s height

I see his height listed as 5 feet 7 inches. How can that be when he appears to be about the same height or taller than candidate Donald Trump? 2601:19D:C080:5960:BD3C:BF8A:8AF6:2D0E (talk) 01:15, 13 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

See WP:OR. We follow what the sources say. Cremastra (talk) 02:34, 13 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Moreover, am I on crazy pills, or do we not mention height in the article at all? I even went to check the article history assuming this may have been recently removed, but no. I can find no evidence whatsoever that we had this information in the article when this IP wrote this comment or in any recent prior revision. TheTechnician27 (Talk page) 05:56, 13 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Height is really only important if the person is notable for their height e.g. Napoleon has a reputation for being short (though that was British propaganda - he was of average height), or if they have a profession where height is a key factor e.g. they are a basketball player. Cortador (talk) 09:05, 13 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Perhaps one day we'll add him to Heights of presidents and presidential candidates of the United States. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 09:41, 13 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I never realized such a page existed. Thanks. Abe Lincoln was a tall dude! Kcmastrpc (talk) 13:29, 13 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
You might enjoy Wikipedia coverage of American politics as well. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 13:32, 13 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
That's fascinating too. I recall some edits landing on Andy Ogles from an alleged congressional IP range last year. Kcmastrpc (talk) 13:45, 13 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Almost as tall as John Cleese.Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 13:44, 13 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
And that was without the huge top hat. Cortador (talk) 06:16, 14 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@TheTechnician27, see [10] Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 13:23, 13 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Google lists his height as 5'7". Wikipedia article does not include height. As noted, many images have him appearing taller than 5'7", so either better information needed (or he got his footwear from same place asRon DeSantis). David notMD (talk) 15:31, 13 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Not a notable veteran

Vance is not notable for being a Marine veteran. This should be removed from the lede. 66.69.214.204 (talk) 00:28, 17 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

He was in the Marines longer than he's been a senator. —ADavidB 01:50, 17 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
So what? 66.69.214.204 (talk) 15:15, 17 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Tim Walz served 24 years. So what?213.230.87.153 (talk) 18:38, 17 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
This is Talk:JD Vance, not Talk:Tim Walz. 66.69.214.204 (talk) 19:06, 17 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Per WP:LEAD, it fits. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 05:39, 17 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Quite the opposite. 66.69.214.204 (talk) 15:16, 17 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Introduction of PRIMARY sources by Skyerise

@Skyerise I removed your good faith edit because this appears to be a primary source, if I'm mistaken, then I might suggest adding it to the parent article Political positions of JD Vance. The other two removals because 1 was verbatim copy paste from the political positions summary (already covered) and seemed UNDUE, while the other was cited from a source that could be construed as WP:PARTISAN. Kcmastrpc (talk) 18:34, 17 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Look, I said when I added it to please move it as necessary. I don't understand how the excerpt thing works, so I added in the section you indicated. If you could please move it to where you think it should go, I would appreciate it. Skyerise (talk) 18:37, 17 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
A couple things:
I will note that part of what you removed was already in the lead, so you may want to restore that part which you removed along with my additions. Skyerise (talk) 18:38, 17 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
The part that I removed in the lead was WP:UNDUE and was verbatim copy/paste from the Politics section. With the first half citing WP:RSPVOX had no supporting prose in the body, and thus, WP:LEADFOLLOWSBODY applies. Kcmastrpc (talk) 18:44, 17 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Note: I don't edit much in political areas, too many rules, but I do hope for the courtesy of some editor that does work in the area to correctly integrate and attribute, etc. rather than just remove. Skyerise (talk) 18:40, 17 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
It's important to note that Wikipedia:PRIMARYUSE does not ban primary sources from being used on Wikipedia articles. Per WP:PRIMARYNOTBAD, Primary" is not, and should not be, a bit of jargon used by Wikipedians to mean "bad" or "unreliable" or "unusable". While some primary sources are not fully independent, they can be authoritative, high-quality, accurate, fact-checked, expert-approved, subject to editorial control, and published by a reputable publisher.
Primary sources can be reliable, and they can be used.
An organization can best speak to who its members, employees, and board members are. Wozal (talk) 18:43, 17 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks guys, I'll let the already active editors sort out what to include where. Ciao! Skyerise (talk) 18:47, 17 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, however, tossing them in the lead without any supporting prose in the body isn't exactly following best practices. I'm not opposed to inclusion, but just throwing them in without discussion is going to be reverted. I'm also not here to do work for other editors, but I can offer suggestions on how and where to introduce such information. Kcmastrpc (talk) 18:48, 17 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
All of us were new at one point. There are ways to encourage new editors to contribute. Notes are helpful. If editors have gone out of their way to locate sources, it's important that we consider what they have to say. The Federalist Society is a notable organization and likely does warrant inclusion in this article and likely is much more notable than the fact that JD Vance had a movie adaptation on his book. (His published novel is notable since it got him fame; a movie that he seemed to have little to do with less so). Wozal (talk) 18:55, 17 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Skyerise isn't new. She's been editing here for 17+ years with over 150k edits. Kcmastrpc (talk) 19:38, 17 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Editor has mentioned they don't edit much in political areas; I take that as being new. Each area of wikipedia has a set of rules which might not always be as noticeable to users who don't have extensive histories within those topics.
It is neither up to me or you to police how they describe themselves. Provided that they are making good faith edits, it's important for us to consider good faith.
Also @Skyerise prefers feminine pronouns per their lookup. Please use those pronouns. Wozal (talk) 20:11, 17 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Primary sources can be used, but with great care with regards to BLPs. It's usually best when there are secondary sources to support them, but on their own, they should generally not be used. I don't feel like this is a controversial take. Kcmastrpc (talk) 18:52, 17 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
It's also important to consider that not everything will have a secondary source. Wikipedia does not necessarily ban those from being used. The criteria for an unusable source is deeper than that. Otherwise, I can see a lot of things within this article, specifically information in which the source being used relies on Vance's autobiography which is a primary source that he published with no way of anyone to verify. There might even be greater cause for concern with the memoir because and I quote "Although Hillbilly Elegy implies that Vance adopted his grandparents' surname of Vance upon his marriage in 2014, the name change actually occurred in April 2013, as he was about to graduate from Yale." Wozal (talk) 19:00, 17 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Yea, interestingly enough, JD isn't listed as a member on the The Federalist Society, however, other members are and are directly cited. Kcmastrpc (talk) 19:10, 17 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I did not state JD was a member of The Federalist Society. Please don't misrepresent or misstate what I've said.
I stated the following: " The Federalist Society is a notable organization and likely does warrant inclusion in this article and likely is much more notable than the fact that JD Vance had a movie adaptation on his book. "
Per the source provided https://fedsoc.org/contributors/j-d-vance-1, Vance is listed as a contributor which means "has spoken or otherwise participated in Federalist Society events, publications, or multimedia presentations."
So, his involvement isn't exactly 0. Wozal (talk) 19:24, 17 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
It was my mistake that I misunderstood that his contributions made him a member. I've added prose to Political positions of JD Vance to reflect that. Kcmastrpc (talk) 19:26, 17 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@Skyerise I removed this prose purposefully due to WP:UNDUE concerns as it's literally copy/pasted from the politics section and does not represent a summary. Please consider self-reverting the change. Kcmastrpc (talk) 18:58, 17 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Just remove it again, dude. I added it back before you told me why you removed it, and I've left the building. Lol! Consider yourself muted, since I already stated I was leaving it to all y'all. Skyerise (talk) 19:04, 17 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
If I do so I could be taking to ANI for WP:3RR, so that's why I asked you to. Kcmastrpc (talk) 19:06, 17 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I am leaving the article just how I found it. Your closeness to 3RR is none of my concern. I suggest you use your reverts more sparingly. Skyerise (talk) 19:07, 17 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Well, that seems to smell a little bit like WP:GAMING, never the less, I've incorporated your contribution to the Political positions of JD Vance article.
Please reconsider self-reverting, never the less. Kcmastrpc (talk) 19:18, 17 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Hard to see how that would be so, since I've never edited this article before and the material you object to isn't mine and I clearly don't have the nose for working on political articles. I restored it in good faith, and I don't make edits at the request of others. Seems to smell a bit like a personal attack. Skyerise (talk) 19:28, 17 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I'm asking that you revert in good faith, since you've recognized the rationale behind the removal, and have admitted that 3RR indeed would apply. Kcmastrpc (talk) 19:30, 17 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
From your intensity, I would guess you must be a partisan editor; what's the hurry? If I revert, it will likely be replaced by the editor who added it or someone who supports them; I am not involved in your squabble, which is why I put the lead back the way I found it. Sort it out amongst yourselves. Certainly it can wait 24 hours; if it were urgent, some other editor would remove it. Relax! Skyerise (talk) 20:36, 17 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
It's not uncommon for editors to be taken to ANI for reverts well past the 24h period. Nevertheless, the same information is in the body and it seems to just be duplicated for no other reason than WP:SENSATIONAL purposes as it's now duplicated in no less than three different places. I kindly requested you restore the revert as I intended since it is entirely WP:UNDUE. Regardless, you're correct in asserting that if it's of any substance another editor will revert. Kcmastrpc (talk) 20:52, 17 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I quickly weary of editors who spew ALPHABET SOUP all the time, and when I am tired of eating ALPHABET SOUP, I like to remind them that WP:IAR ("ignore all rules" for those who like me dislike SOUP) is policy, while most of the SOUPs being sloshed around are merely guidelines. Skyerise (talk) 21:04, 17 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 17 August 2024

Arbitration was extended 65.175.130.76 (talk) 18:51, 17 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

 Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate.McYeee (talk) 21:04, 17 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Unbalanced negative description of Hillbilly Elegy

The only sources describing Vance's book either make it out to be pro-Trump propaganda (it wasn't) or some liberal critics.

What about the fact that it was best-seller? What about the fact that it had near universal acclaim -- until Vance dared run for office as a Republican, and now suddenly everything you read about it is negative, fake criticisms.

https://bookmarks.reviews/reviews/all/hillbilly-elegy-a-memoir-of-a-family-and-culture-in-crisis/

Here are some quotes, from "reputable sources" such as The Wall Street Journal, The Washington Post, The Economist, The New York Times, and more:

"...a quietly thoughtful, poignant look at life in the very places where the presumptive Republican Presidential nominee has garnered the strongest support. It provides a respite (and a much needed one, at that) from the shouting and the sheer noise of today’s political climate, with Vance choosing instead to adopt a tone of thoughtful reflection with a genuine desire for mutual understanding ... while the political timeliness of Hillbilly Elegy is undeniable, Vance truly shines when he takes us with him 'down the holler' into an America we thought we knew — until we realized how little of it we truly understood."


"Hillbilly Elegy is a beautiful memoir but it is equally a work of cultural criticism about white working-class America ... [it's] a riveting book, but it has a sobering message."

"America’s political system and the white working class have lost faith in each other. J.D. Vance’s memoir, Hillbilly Elegy, offers a starkly honest look at what that shattering of faith feels like for a family who lived through it ... You will not read a more important book about America this year."

"...a compassionate, discerning sociological analysis of the white underclass that has helped drive the politics of rebellion, particularly the ascent of Donald J. Trump. Combining thoughtful inquiry with firsthand experience, Mr. Vance has inadvertently provided a civilized reference guide for an uncivilized election, and he’s done so in a vocabulary intelligible to both Democrats and Republicans ... Whether you agree with Mr. Vance or not, you must admire him for his head-on confrontation with a taboo subject" 

71.247.12.176 (talk) 03:00, 18 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I think you partially raise a fair point. IMO, if we add a short summary of what the memoir contains, and remove the very long quote from William Easterly, while keeping in the criticism from The New Republic, that would make this section more balanced. I don't think the solution is to dump in even more reviews of it in this article (rather than in Hillbilly Elegy).
At the time it was released in 2016, the book was certainly very popular, but there was also some liberal criticism even back then. Many liberals enjoyed the book as they found comfort in its portrayal of poor whites as (frankly) stupid, which provided them an explanation for Trump's victory (see a great write-up from The Guardian), and some of that liberal praise has definitely been retconned as Vance became a Republican and the distance from 2016 grew. But even in 2016, there was still liberals criticizing the book for it's portrayal of poor whites as stupid or as basically "welfare queens", which the currently cited contemporaneous article in The New Republic demonstrates, so I think that is fair to include as well. Endwise (talk) 03:40, 18 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Like this? Endwise (talk) 04:00, 18 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Voting power for parents

In the opening paragraphs of JD Vance, it speaks about his support of increased voting power for parents, but this is not a key policy position of JD and has been dismissed repeatedly as a mere thought experiment. Presently there's too much of an emphasis on this fringe position and its coverage as a core policy position of JD is rather disingenuous and intended to defame him. Source: https://www.newsweek.com/jd-vance-backtracks-comments-more-votes-parents-us-presidential-election-donald-trump-1937669 — Preceding unsigned comment added by Freespeech2024 (talk • contribs)

Wozal, Editmakerer, Davefelmer, I see that there's been a back and forth about whether the lede should reference Vance's statement about giving parents more voting power than those without children. I agree that it doesn't belong there, per WP:UNDUE. Unlike his frequent criticism of childlessness, and his repeated use of variations on "sociopath" (see, e.g., these CNN examples), I've only seen evidence of his having made the voting power statement once. If you're aware of him having proposed it more than once, please say. FactOrOpinion (talk) 13:50, 19 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Yeah, this is a one-time, off-hand comment. I don't know why it should be in the lead when he has said so much else about this topic. Endwise (talk) 14:06, 19 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I tried removing it but someone who admittedly has no experience editing in BLP/politics insisted on restoring the content repeatedly. I endorse removing it from the lead as it's a rote duplication of the prose that is in the Political Views section (which is in the lead of the Political positions of JD Vance, and should be removed there as well). Kcmastrpc (talk) 14:51, 19 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
A recent deletion stated the following: "Based on context, it seems pretty obvious that he was being sarcastic as a response to the supposed democratic proposal to lower voting age to 16 with an outlandish remark for which he knew he would be criticized, rather than having such be an actual policy statement. This whole sentence seems suspect, what with the other reference of linking childlessness to sociopathy, but this one is certainly undeserved, especially as part of the first 4 paragraphs:"
However, it’s not our role to assume intent. There are other issues that raise red flags for me, which I’ll discuss later. I wasn’t the one who reverted to the 'established version,' which had been deleted along with newly added lead information. The original lead was restored without the new information, which was moved to another article by a different user.
The next deletion of this stated the following: "Not much of an established version, as it had been removed and then was replaced and never touched again. And again, the whole sentence, both parts, are iffy at best. It would make most sense if it just said “Vance is an outspoken critic of childlessness” and then went into more detail in the main article, without any mention of the second clause for the reasons mentioned in my prev edit"
This time, the edit seemed to shift its reasoning for the reversion. It felt like me a case of "WP:IDONTLIKEIT" instead of its original reasoning.
The original statement Vance made regarding this was made in July 2021, as can be shown here. A shorter version can be found here. This is notable because his statement contradicts the principle of 'one person, one vote.' He's had nearly 3 years to claim that this is a "mere thought experiment", but hasn't until recently when there seems to have been backlash to it. As such, I'm not sure I buy that argument. If we were to buy that argument every time a politician backtracked, there would be a lot of empty positions on many politician's pages. The retractions alone might be enough to cause headaches.
It's hard to ignore that this has been picked up by multiple media outlets that can be seen at the following: Washington Post, NYMAG/Intelligencer, National Catholic Register, Vox, The Hill among others. Presented within a larger context, this helps us gain a better understanding of what it means to say that Vance is an outspoken critic of childlessness. Statements like the ones on raising grandchildren is ‘whole purpose of postmenopausal female, making judgement calls on those without children, "childless cat ladies" reflect on why we're starting to see why the media is seeing him as having pro-natalism views. See Business Insider, Axios, The New Yorker, New York Times (which mentions For Mr. Vance and other Republicans like him, provisions like the child tax credit are part of a broader “pro-natalist” project encouraging women to have more children — a key plank of a family-oriented, conservative social vision. Wozal (talk) 14:54, 19 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Again: the question is whether this specific content belongs in the lead, not whether it should be mentioned somewhere in the article. There are many examples of him saying things that support "Vance is an outspoken critic of childlessness" (another part of the same lead sentence). There's more than one example of him saying things that "link[] it to sociopathy" (ditto). But as best I can tell, there's only one example of him "advocating that parents should have more voting power than non-parents." Yes, plenty of media reported on it. But plenty of media have reported on all sorts of things that aren't in the lede. FactOrOpinion (talk) 15:21, 19 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
The key issue here is the weight and relevance of this content in the lead. While Vance may have mentioned the idea of parents having more voting power only once, the extensive media coverage it received underscores its significance. This single statement has become a notable part of how his views are publicly perceived, making it relevant for the lead. Its inclusion alongside other points helps provide a more comprehensive understanding of his stance on family and societal issues. Wozal (talk) 15:28, 19 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Again, there's "extensive media coverage" of all sorts of things that aren't in the lead. Even focusing just on his comments about childlessness, his comment about "childless cat ladies" got more attention, but that's not in the lead. FactOrOpinion (talk) 16:05, 19 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Also: It's important to keep in mind that the lead is often the only thing read by readers. Due to Vance being a politician, people would likely expect to read about his policies, accomplishments, views and statements. However, given his recent (and relatively short) tenure thus far, there haven't been any policies which he has implemented. Of equal concern is that Vance seems to have retracted a number (regardless of reasons provided) of his earlier positions which nearly makes that more of an identifying feature of his rather than any of his policies.
In some articles, we've talked about driving accidents that occurred once and have debated adding more lines to that. His stance on issues is of far greater importance than the fact that he was once a CNN contributor (which remains unclear of how long). In its current form, the reader still doesn't know who JD Vance is or the reasons he supports or doesn't support several issues. We currently don't even cover falsehoods Vance has spread like this one or how "every imaginable issue" has changed as mentioned here. Wozal (talk) 15:24, 19 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
WP:SENSATIONAL opinion articles, especially during election season, may be worth covering, but I don't see any particular reason such specific details are WP:DUE for inclusion in the lede. Readers expect a summary in the first few paragraphs of a BLP, not some in-depth pontification foisted upon them based on a statement he made years ago. Kcmastrpc (talk) 15:27, 19 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
The guideline emphasizes the need for a balanced representation of viewpoints based on their prominence in reliable sources, not just opinion articles. While the statement in question was made years ago, its lasting impact and significant media coverage have kept it relevant. Including it in the lead doesn’t delve into excessive detail but rather acknowledges a key aspect of his public persona that has shaped broader discussions about his views. The goal isn’t sensationalization as your statement appears to claim but to provide a well-rounded summary that reflects his public perception. The so-called " in-depth pontification" is exactly what Vance has called for. ETA: It appears that WP:SENSATIONAL is being used here incorrectly. Direct quotes are really hard to use in that way. As such, it appears that this is nothing more than "Alphabet Soup" as has previously been discussed. Wozal (talk) 15:34, 19 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
It's easy to argue alphabet soup when you have no policy to back up your argument. Kcmastrpc (talk) 16:09, 19 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
It’s also easy to dismiss a point as 'alphabet soup' when you choose not to engage with the specifics as I've discussed above. If there’s something in my argument that you disagree with, I’m happy to discuss it in detail. Let’s stick to the facts and policy to move this conversation forward constructively. Let's remain civil to ensure this doesn't go into Wikipedia:No personal attacks territory. Wozal (talk) 16:16, 19 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Consider the fact that in an entire article devoted to Vance's political stances, his voting proposal gets only one sentence in the body, despite his overall stances on family, childlessness, and divorce having it's own section with several paragraphs. Or consider the fact that his opposition to abortion only gets a word in the lead here, and a word in the body, when combined coverage of all that he's said about abortion is much larger than the coverage of his voting proposal. FactOrOpinion (talk) 17:25, 19 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I was replying to the reasoning for the reversion given by Dave, that’s why the reasoning “changed”. It was the same reasoning, just added on the fact that it wasn’t much of an established version Editmakerer (talk) 05:20, 20 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Also,why would he go and say it was a thought experiment when that much is obvious based on context? He states a proposal from democrats he doesn’t like and counters it with a proposal that they wouldn’t like, that he literally explains why it would be unpopular in general or whatever (doesn’t that violate the principle of etc etc). The only motivation one would have to do so is if people like you were to be like,” wow I can’t believe he would make such a thing a legitimate policy standpoint even though it was the only time he said such a thing and the context in which he said it indicates he was not being serious” as you are now. That media outlets have picked up another one of his foolish remarks and run with it, putting their own spin on it, doesn’t make the truth of the circumstances bend to their will, nor does it make it even worthy of being put in the lede; as others have said, there are other issues regarding him that have been significantly covered yet remain absent from the lede. You accuse me of removing it because I simply don’t like it, but it seems to me you’re projecting: you only want to include it because you don’t like JD. Editmakerer (talk) 05:27, 20 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Cortador, adding you to the discussion here, since you're now involved in the editing back and forth and likely weren't aware of this Talk page discussion. So far, there are more people arguing against including it in the lead than for including it. FactOrOpinion (talk) 13:24, 20 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@FactOrOpinion Since this was removed based on WP:DUE - What viewpoint to you believe is not represented here? Cortador (talk) 13:45, 20 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
If a viewpoint is held by an extremely small minority, it does not belong on Wikipedia, regardless of whether it is true, or you can prove it, except perhaps in some ancillary article.
I would argue this particular viewpoint marginally falls under this policy, because it's really obvious to most people that this is being spun and he's already walked back his statements on the matter. JD Vance has been quoted invoking Godwin's Law at some point, but we don't stuff it in the lead because NOTEVERYTHING. Kcmastrpc (talk) 13:58, 20 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Sources on Vance's statement are easy to find. This has been reported on by Snopes, MBC News, the Washington Post etc. How is that an "extremely small minority"? Cortador (talk) 14:10, 20 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
The number of sources that cover what politicians say is irrelevant. Politicians say a lot of controversial things, manymost of them don't rise to the level of belonging in a lead. It's whether those statements have any lasting impact or consequence. If such viewpoints were enacted into policy and/or became a platform the party adopted then I would say it rises into DUE territory. Kcmastrpc (talk) 14:14, 20 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
We include what source report on, and the amount of sources reporting on something absolutely factors into that. Statements becoming policy is not an inclusion criterion; you are proposing original research. Cortador (talk) 14:17, 20 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
The issue is whether it belongs in the lead. Per WP:UNDUE, "Undue weight can be given in several ways, including but not limited to ... prominence of placement." He's said many things about childlessness. I wouldn't focus on any specific statement in the lead. As I pointed out earlier, the lead only highlights his anti-abortion views with a single word, despite that having gotten much more attention. And if you were going to focus on one of his childlessness criticisms, it would make more sense to focus on his "childless cat ladies" comment, which got more attention. But I don't think that belongs in the lead either. It's a matter of the overall weighting relative to the rest of the content in the lead. FactOrOpinion (talk) 14:16, 20 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
What viewpoint should be more prominent then in your opinion? Cortador (talk) 14:18, 20 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
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