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First Paragraph Needs to be Corrected

"Later assertions by Twitter owner Elon Musk and others that the government had ordered the company to suppress the Post story to favor Joe Biden in the weeks leading to the election were not supported by a Twitter Files examination authorized by Musk.[6]" This is not correct. The CNN article states that certain officials DENY that the FBI was involved in the coverup; however, both Elon and the journalists who published the Twitter Files have stated the exact opposite with evidence of contact between Twitter employees and FBI intel agents. We all know Wikipedia has a left-wing bias problem, but this needs to be fixed. FBI officials denying their involvement in the coverup during the 2020 election does not equate to exoneration, especially given the fact other Silicon Valley leaders like Mark Zuckerberg have publicly stated the FBI put pressure on social media sites to treat the laptop from hell as "Russian disinfo" despite having verified the laptop's authenticity almost a year prior to the November 2020 elections.

There is a new RfC at Talk:Hunter Biden#RfC: Washington Post report concerning emails that concerns a line about the laptop controversy. Editors of this page might be interested in commenting there. Firefangledfeathers (talk / contribs) 13:00, 24 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

"External hard drive" is problematic

The second paragraph under Background refers the external hard drive of the laptop. Laptops don't have external drives. It appears this drive was used by others to make a copy of material on the laptop. Should be cleaned up. 130.44.152.168 (talk) 16:33, 22 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

It has not been demonstrated how the files got on the storage device. "Backup" is unverified. SPECIFICO talk 19:17, 22 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Time to remove "controversy" from article title

Not really a "controversy" anymore, now that government prosecutors plan to use the laptop contents as evidence. Magnolia677 (talk) 22:33, 24 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

From the source you presented: The laptop has become a symbol of the legal and political controversy surrounding the president's son in recent years. So, why should we remove "controversy" from the article title? – Muboshgu (talk) 22:44, 24 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
What is "controversial"? If you read the article, it's pretty obvious "suppression" or "cover-up" would be more appropriate. Magnolia677 (talk) 22:56, 24 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
It will be interesting to see what they produce. "Contents?" a laptop? We don't know. SPECIFICO talk 23:20, 24 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I recommend you not edit war and self-revert the reinsertion of Weiss's quote. It comes from a court filing and has not been accepted by the judge. It is not the position of the US government, just Weiss. Federal Judge Maryellen Noreika, who is presiding over the case, hasn't said when she'll rule on these pretrial motions about expert witnesses and how the laptop can be discussed in front of the jury. – Muboshgu (talk) 23:24, 24 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
A special counsel does not speak for the American government as if he is the Attorney General. let's not engage in farcical hyperbole. Zaathras (talk) 23:41, 24 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
HAHAHA! soibangla (talk) 00:54, 25 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Where does the prosecutor say it's "Not really a controversy anymore"? I can't find it. DN (talk) 02:29, 25 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Sentence in Lead that is unverifiable

This sentence in the lead is not supported by the body of the article, nor is it backed up by ANY of the sources:

"Despite persistent allegations that the laptop contents indicated corruption by Joe Biden, a joint investigation by two Republican Senate committees released in September 2020 did not find wrongdoing by him,"

I put a citation needed tag needed by this sentence, but it was reverted because "citations generally don't belong in the lead." This is true, but only because leads should summarize the article. This sentence is not discussed in the article, so at the very least, it needs a reference even though it is in the lead. There are five references provided NONE of which discuss the laptop or even mention the word "laptop". None of them discuss ANY allegations about the laptop contents. Since the story was broken by the New York Post in October 2020, it is in fact impossible that there were persistent allegations in the public about the laptop, and if there were private discussions by the FBI (who seized it in December 2019), this needs to be sourced. Epachamo (talk) 04:07, 25 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The files puportedly implicating Joe predate the investigation. Maybe you could propose wording you think would be clearer? SPECIFICO talk 19:48, 25 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@SPECIFICO: "The files puportedly implicating Joe predate the investigation." That might be true, but you need an independent reliable secondary source that says that. Epachamo (talk) 20:59, 25 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
There are 5 citations for that sentence. Perhaps you should read them. Zaathras (talk) 22:48, 25 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@Zaathras: None of those 5 citations even mention the laptop, or the contents on the laptop. We need a reliable, secondary source that connects the files on the laptop to the September 2020 investigation. Epachamo (talk) 23:11, 25 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
You are misstating the issue. I suggest you read RS that discuss these matters. At worst, it's poorly worded article text. SPECIFICO talk 00:12, 26 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@SPECIFICO: The issue is not the reliability of the sources (I agree they are reliable). The issue is verifiability. From WP:V, "The cited source must clearly support the material as presented in the article." The statement in the article cannot be verified by ANY of the five given sources. Epachamo (talk) 01:33, 26 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
That's a good point. The Republican Senate committee report referenced came out in September 2020. The Hunter laptop surfaced as an October surprise the following month. That sentence looks like a WP:SYNTH violation to me. – Muboshgu (talk) 01:49, 26 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Looked that way to me also in October last year: Special:Diff/1181992043. Thanks for finally doing the needed. DonFB (talk) 06:08, 26 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
IIRC this was discussed and resolved to remain as is. I wrote the text and I concede it might not be the most elegant thing I've ever written, given the timing of findings, but I think it still stands, though I'm certainly open to alternative phrasing, rather than outright omission soibangla (talk) 01:49, 26 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I rewrote that sentence. – Muboshgu (talk) 01:50, 26 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
yes soibangla (talk) 01:56, 26 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@Soibangla: Please don't take it as a personal attack. Anyone who writes on Wikipedia for any amount of time is going to write things that aren't "elegant". I'm certainly not advocating for omission at the moment, just that a citation needed tag be placed on the unverifiable portion of the sentence until a proper source can be discovered. Epachamo (talk) 02:03, 26 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
"Despite" is the only problem, SPECIFICO talk 02:08, 26 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
no offense taken soibangla (talk) 02:22, 26 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I see that Muboshgu has edited the sentence to better reflect the sources and as long as everyone else is ok, I don't think a citation needed tag anymore. I rescind my proposal. Epachamo (talk) 02:30, 26 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Cool :) GoodDay (talk) 14:35, 26 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

interesting twist

Under questioning from Lowell, FBI special agent Erika Jensen said she could not verify the contents of Hunter Biden's laptop admitted into evidence were not tampered with before law enforcement collected it from the Mac repair shop.[1]

soibangla (talk) 20:53, 5 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Did FBI determine there was physically a laptop device, or just that there were lots of files on a drive? SPECIFICO talk 23:11, 5 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

This article is incredibly vague and is written in a way that obscures what this incident is about.

First line: "a controversy arose involving data from a laptop that belonged to Hunter Biden". Okay, so we have definitively stated that the laptop did belong to Hunter. So what exactly was this controversy about? Hmm, well we have this line:

Later assertions by Twitter owner Elon Musk and others that the government had ordered the company to suppress the Post story to favor Joe Biden in the weeks leading to the election were not supported by a Twitter Files examination authorized by Musk.

Wait, so did the government not order that? Or did the company (Twitter) not suppress the story? (Also, is this even unequivocally true?) Let's continue:

In December 2019, under the authority of a subpoena issued by a Wilmington grand jury, the FBI seized the laptop from Mac Isaac.

I see, the FBI seized the laptop 10 months before this "controversy arose".

PolitiFact wrote in June 2021 that, while "over time, there has been less doubt that the laptop did in fact belong to Hunter Biden", the laptop "was real in the sense that it exists, but it didn't prove much", as "[n]othing from the laptop has revealed illegal or unethical behavior by Joe Biden as vice president with regard to his son's tenure as a director for Burisma".

Less doubt? So there was doubt to begin with? Is that maybe what the controversy was about? That people doubted it? Were any actions taken by companies, institutions, agencies, etc, because of this doubt? Were any accusations levied against the story? Did anyone dub it "Russian disinformation"? How about "dozens of intel officials" (even though the FBI had seized the laptop 10 months earlier).

Did the controversy have anything to do with the fact that Twitter and Facebook suppressed the Post story with unprecedented measures like banning users who posted a link to the story? Perhaps the controversy has to do with the fact that the mainstream media (and the intelligence community) openly accused this story of being Russian disinformation, despite, as Vox reported (mentioned later) 'no evidence had ever emerged "that the laptop's leak was a Russian plot"'. Had ever emerged. Maybe that should go in the introduction, and be written in clear and direct language. Sysiphis (talk) 02:37, 6 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The controversy is that the opponents of the Bidens alleged the laptops were a vast and important smoking gun that would "totally prove" (to use their favorite verbiage) everything from Burisma to Shokin was a big ball of corruption masterminded by Joe himself. While the physical laptops may have once belonged to the younger Biden, the contents therein were tainted by unclean hands, particularly Giuliani's. Zaathras (talk) 03:08, 6 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
What exactly are you saying? So Twitter/Facebook censoring the Post's reporting, the accusations from the media, the Biden campaign (and, inexplicably, the intelligence community) that this was Russian disinformation, none of that is part of the controversy? Because that's all in the article, just scattered grudging admissions. I'm saying these facts shouldn't be treated as ancillary background trivia, and instead should be brought into the introductory overview. Also, "may have belonged"? "The contents therein were tainted by unclean hands"? Who are you to make this judgement? The laptop has been authenticated a million times over and is now being used as evidence in Hunter Biden's trial. Giuliani is not the prosecutor. Sysiphis (talk) 03:33, 6 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
The laptop has been authenticated a million times over... This is a mischaracterization commonly made by people with only a surface-level understanding of the topic. The physical laptops and the hard drive contents are two entirely separate issues. See the link to the news article provided one level above, at Talk:Hunter_Biden_laptop_controversy#interesting_twist. Zaathras (talk) 03:36, 6 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Interesting link. Let's check out that article:
Lowell sought earlier Wednesday to cast doubt on the authenticity of personal messages allegedly from Hunter Biden's personal devices. Under questioning from Lowell, FBI special agent Erika Jensen said she could not verify the contents of Hunter Biden's laptop admitted into evidence were not tampered with before law enforcement collected it from the Mac repair shop
Yeah, even with a surface-level understanding of the topic we can see that a) this was prompted by carefully crafted questioning from the defense counsel (can you think of a more biased source? Maybe only his grandma), and b) it is logically not possible to prove a negative.
And what are you even talking about? Please pay attention. It's stunningly dishonest to claim that the suppression of the story and the baseless accusations of Russian disinformation not only from the media but also the intelligence community who were already in possession of the laptop for 10 months before the story in the Post was published is somehow now part of this controversy. Sysiphis (talk) 04:17, 6 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

baseless accusations of Russian disinformation not only from the media but also the intelligence community who were already in possession of the laptop

the memo was from 51 former IC officials who had no access to the laptop but wrote:

We want to emphasize that we do not know if the emails, provided to the New York Post by President Trump’s personal attorney Rudy Giuliani, are genuine or not and that we do not have evidence of Russian involvement -- just that our experience makes us deeply suspicious that the Russian government played a significant role in this case.

they did not lie, as they are commonly accused. only the FBI had the laptop, and until today they said nothing about it. and Taibbi found no evidence of government suppression of the story, despite the Twitter Files hype soibangla (talk) 05:06, 6 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Based on your statement then, I think the summary should have something to the effect of:
The mainstream media and intelligence community strongly suggested, based on admittedly no evidence, that the story of the laptop was Russian disinformation. This prompted Twitter and Facebook to censor the story and take measures such as blocking links to the story. Twitter banned the New York Post's account 16 days, reinstating it one week before the election. No evidence ever emerged to support the theory of Russian disinformation.
Also, several sections later in the article we have this:
Natasha Bertrand of Politico wrote a story about the letter, with the headline, "Hunter Biden story is Russian disinfo, dozens of former intel officials say."
According to you, that headline is completely false. Maybe something should be added to let the reader know that? Ctrl-f the word "false" and you will see that it is used to refer to:
  • false allegations against Joe Biden
  • false claims made by Donald Trump
  • false claims made by conservative media
  • false claims made by Tucker Carlson
  • false claims about Hunter Biden
Would you agree that this statement by Natasha Bertrand, which is false, and which, as it is later suggested, "likely shaped perceptions of the letter that continue to this day", also deserves the clarification that it is false? Currently, the reader is immediately treated to apologetics instead. And this as well probably deserves a mention in the intro. Sysiphis (talk) 16:40, 6 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
"Perhaps the controversy has to do with the fact that the mainstream media (and the intelligence community) openly accused this story of being Russian disinformation, despite, as Vox reported (mentioned later) 'no evidence had ever emerged "that the laptop's leak was a Russian plot"'.
If I recall correctly, there may have been discussions similar to this one in the archives. It's possible the lead currently doesn't mention Russian dis-info assertions due to previous discussions.
However, it's unclear how this shines light on any discrepancy.
"I'm saying these facts shouldn't be treated as ancillary background trivia, and instead should be brought into the introductory overview. Also, "may have belonged"? "The contents therein were tainted by unclean hands"? Who are you to make this judgement?"
Editors are allowed to have opinions on the talk-page if they choose, but the overview is bound by things like WP:LEAD, WP:WEIGHT and WP:BLP which dictate to some degree what is in the lead.
The current lead puts focus on the original catalyst for the controversy, ie "laptop data allegedly containing evidence of illegal or unethical behavior by Joe Biden". The lead does not focus on any alleged cover-up by IC or the media, or claims about Russian dis-info because there have been discussions and WP:CON in regard to how best to adhere to policy and avoid things like WP:SYNTH.
I think I still have my T-shirt from the last RfC.
How is this different from picking out certain statements or facts to create a new context or narrative on the "controversy" other than what is already predicated by the timeline of events, which seems to ignore parts of RS that already explicitly dispute what the "controversy" was about and when it started? Cheers. DN (talk) 20:51, 6 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Ahh I see the same players are still spinning narratives to prevent this article from stating simple truths.
cut all the nonsense language that’s attempt to equivocate and compromise because editors couldn’t accept that Hunter Biden owned a laptop and forgot it
anyway, look forward to perplexity taking over as it’s clear this place will never change. Same useless gatekeepers perpetuating half truths and hiding behind “but actually…” Slywriter (talk) 01:01, 7 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
thank you for your thoughtful comments, which are quite a lot to chew on, and you've had a head start here and it might take me some time to respond in full, but I initially detect some things that are not quite precise portrayals. I hope to get back to you as time allows. soibangla (talk) 03:52, 6 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Request is unclear. DN (talk) 05:06, 6 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
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