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This is an old revision of this page, as edited by 31.94.62.110 (talk) at 10:44, 17 April 2024 (→Authoritarian regime: Remove bullshit.). The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this revision, which may differ significantly from the current revision.

Former featured articleChina is a former featured article. Please see the links under Article milestones below for its original nomination page (for older articles, check the nomination archive) and why it was removed.
Main Page trophyThis article appeared on Wikipedia's Main Page as Today's featured article on March 7, 2004.
Did You KnowOn this day... Article milestones
DateProcessResult
March 15, 2004Featured article candidatePromoted
April 23, 2006Featured article reviewKept
March 15, 2007Featured article reviewDemoted
March 31, 2007Good article nomineeListed
October 14, 2008Good article reassessmentKept
August 15, 2009Good article reassessmentDelisted
October 21, 2012Good article nomineeNot listed
December 16, 2013Good article nomineeListed
December 17, 2020Good article reassessmentDelisted
Did You Know A fact from this article appeared on Wikipedia's Main Page in the "Did you know?" column on January 3, 2014.
The text of the entry was: Did you know ... that China, with over 34,687 species of animals and vascular plants, is the third-most biodiverse country in the world?
On this day... Facts from this article were featured on Wikipedia's Main Page in the "On this day..." column on October 1, 2004, October 1, 2005, October 1, 2006, October 1, 2007, October 1, 2008, October 1, 2009, October 1, 2010, October 1, 2012, October 1, 2014, October 1, 2018, and October 1, 2019.
Current status: Former featured article

"China" or "People's Republic of China"

I have noticed that in other language Wikipedias (e.g. Japanese Wikipedia) the PRC is referred to as the People's Republic of China (中華人民共和国) and not just "China" (中国). "China" refers to China as in the region, as in "Greater China". I believe that the English Wikipedia should emulate that as there are two states (PRC and ROC) claiming to be China, and prioritising one over another might be kind of political. I'm not talking about all mentions of China in any other article, just this one (as in the title, not IN the article itself). Others might say this is irrelevant or unnecessary as most people think of the a PRC when discussing China, but there are still people–including me–who are from the ROC that still identify as Chinese. Just a suggestion, it's not really a big deal but it would be nice.

By the way, click the link that says "中国" and change the language to English and you'll see what I'm talking about. I can see that there are many arguments about my suggestion and I'm willing to work out these issues. Ztimes3 (talk) 06:43, 4 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The relevant policy is WP:COMMONNAME. If you start a formal request, your opposition will cite that policy. However, I do not recommend investing more of your time and energy into such a proposal as you would be going against an over two-decade old consensus. Although arguments similar to yours have been brought up in the past, they have been sparce and few in between. In other words, there is a near-zero chance of such a proposal succeeding. Yue🌙 04:38, 18 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Ok, thanks for your response. I'll think about whether I should. I was just confused because the consensus in other language Wikipedias is to refrain from being politically biased, even in relation to the name of an article being based on a common name used by the majority of people. Ztimes3 (talk) 06:25, 18 March 2024 (UTC) (edited)[reply]
The other language wikipedias probably copied the old system here. This system changed to follow commonname, under which we refrain from imposing political consideration upon article titles as was done previously. CMD (talk) 06:45, 18 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Makes sense. Ztimes3 (talk) 10:01, 18 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Page protected

India is page protected but why so many countries aren't page protected? Dipayanrao2003 (talk) 09:25, 27 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Pages are protected in response to a pattern of vandalism and disruptive editing, not proactively for some abstract reason. Remsense诉 10:06, 27 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@Remsense oh, I see. Btw how do we edit such protected pages. Is there any qualification requirements forutgis process or something else? Dipayanrao2003 (talk) 12:18, 27 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Generally, extended confirmed protection allows editing by extended confirmed users, with the main requirement being 500 edits. You can learn more about various levels of protection at the page I've just linked also. Cheers! Remsense诉 12:21, 27 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks bro Dipayanrao2003 (talk) 05:32, 7 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Why you revert those templates?

China is controversial and this is not a forum to talk about China. 71.126.106.243 (talk) 22:45, 9 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Pinging @DeCausa: as this user reverted the edits. 71.126.106.243 (talk) 22:45, 9 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
it's a waste of time and clutters up the top of this page. It will have zero beneficial effect and be totally ignored. Do you really think that one person is going to look at your template and say to themselves "i better not post my forum post here then". Of course not. So all you've done is expanded a big brown slab of nothingness at the top of this page that adds nothing (and which is already too big) except makes it longer for the page to load and dissuades anyone from looking at what is underneath it. Go and do something more useful. DeCausa (talk) 22:50, 9 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Authoritarian regime

Since china is no less authoritarian than russia and since it also a dictatorship, shouldn't we mention it as such in the info box? 2A02:14F:1F5:5F19:0:0:3EB3:515A (talk) 17:22, 13 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

We've had this discussion numerous times, feel free to peruse the discussions in the archives. Remsense诉 17:45, 13 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@Remsense I have just checked it, and I see it is you that object the word Authoritarian while other support such use.
The fact that you don't like this word is not an argument against it and wikipedia in fact use this word in the case of Russia. So there is no reason not to use in the case of China as it is much more Authoritarian than Russia. 85.65.237.103 (talk) 07:36, 14 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I participated in the most recent discussion—there's been more than one. Remsense诉 15:34, 14 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Which discussion is the most recent one? Horse Eye's Back (talk) 15:40, 14 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
We have many many sources,,,,can we get an explanation as to why its not here? Moxy🍁 15:51, 14 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Apologies, the most recent discussion was in the most recent archive, and it was about another suggestion for this field. These conversations blur together. Remsense诉 18:40, 14 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Then what conversations are you referring to? Please link them. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 15:25, 15 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Here's the only relevant one I've had about the infobox on this article. Remsense诉 16:18, 15 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose. See prior discussions. I would add that the starting point is that in an infobox, there is little room for attribution, multiple characterizations, or nuance. It is someone analogous to the lead in that it is one of the first things people see in an article. We should avoid contentious labels in infoboxes as a result. When it comes to the government field, we should be matter of fact and concrete in describing how a government is set up, and avoid characterizations and labels. There are so many alternative labels and characterizations for governments we should stick to what is concrete. "Authoritarian" is fine for the body (like it is now) where it can be attributed to sources and explained. It should be avoided for the infobox for the reasons I discuss here also.
"Dictatorship" is an extreme minority position and so would be totally WP:UNDUE. JArthur1984 (talk) 17:41, 14 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Basically four political systems in the world and you don't think one of them should be mentioned? Moxy🍁 17:47, 14 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
"Dictatorship is an extreme minority position and so would be totally WP:UNDUE." is it? Whether China is authoritarian or autocratic (the two options here) Xi is still a dictator. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 18:09, 14 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
China is one of the examples in every academic publication not seeing how it's undue. Authoritarian would be more appropriate than dictatorship.. as a dictatorship could be authoritarian or totalitarian. There is clearly a debate if it's authoritarian regime or totalitarian regime....but the vast majority of sources say authoritarian giving reasons why totalitarian. Moxy🍁 18:32, 14 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
It seems we need to clarify what |government_type= is actually meant to describe. As my preliminary take, I think it is generally most helpful when it describes the concrete structure of government institutions, as opposed to broad characterizations of the cultural or political effects of said structure. I realize this is the most uphill of battles, but I see no other way forward other than actually trying to define the scope of what we're disagreeing about. Remsense诉 18:50, 14 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
In my view.... as we do with other articles we should list one of the three main types of political systems today: democracies,
totalitarian regimes and, sitting between these two, authoritarian regimes (with hybrid regimes). I'm not seeing a debate within the sources they are pretty clear on this. Think it'd be hard process to find anything that calls them democracy outside of their own publications. Moxy🍁 19:29, 14 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Doesn't it concern you that treating this typology that was introduced in the mid-90s (at the earliest) in a largely Western polisci context as universal could be both low-information and NPOV? Remsense诉 19:34, 14 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Seems like a circular argument, that typology was not introduced in the mid-90s... Try 1890s for its origins in the Western polisci context. They are now in fact universal. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 19:35, 14 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
The term hybrid regime was not introduced until the mid 1990s. Remsense诉 19:36, 14 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
But we aren't talking about hybrid regime, we're talking about authoritarian regime. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 20:19, 14 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
We're talking about a tripartite scheme of democratic, hybrid, and authoritarian, which are apparently the three choices for |government_type=, a point which is still confusing me. Remsense诉 15:58, 15 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@Remsense China is not a Hybrid regime. It is a full authoritarian. 85.65.237.103 (talk) 06:33, 15 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
two things need to be mentioned:
1) there is a consensuses that China is an authoritarian dictatorship. This is NOT a minority view. and we have many reliable sources to support this:
https://moderndiplomacy.eu/2023/05/18/chinas-authoritarian-regime-an-analysis-of-political-control/
https://web.pdx.edu/~gilleyb/LimitsofAuthoritarianResilience.pdf
https://www.cambridge.org/core/journals/china-quarterly/article/abs/defending-the-authoritarian-regime-online-chinas-voluntary-fiftycent-army/1770B27AFA2FCD7AD5E773157A49B934
2) Wikipedia does use such information in the info box. Just looking at the info box of Russia shows that such information (authoritarian dictatorship) is mentioned.
There is no reason not mention it in the case of China. To be honest, I don't get why all the objection of mentioning a well know fact that supported by the sources. 85.65.237.103 (talk) 06:29, 15 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
IP, I intend for this to sound direct but not brusque -- if you don't realize that China-is-a-dictatorship is an extreme minority position among RS, you are better served by starting your Wikipedia contributions in other areas while you continue to learn about this topic.
Your first link does not support your position. It doesn't call China a dictatorship.
Your second link does not support your position. It doesn't call China a dictatorship.
Your third link is an abstract of subscription access journal article. The abstract doesn't call China a dictatorship. If you think it's there somewhere in the article, feel free to post a quote.
For accessible, recent, academic texts (or texts by academics) in English on China's system, I suggest Tsang & Cheung, The Political Thought of Xi Jinping, Oxford University Press (2024), Keyu Jin, The New China Playbook: Beyond Socialism and Capitalism, Viking (2023), David Daokai Li, China's World View, W.W. Norton, (2024). Even more accessibly written and also good are Jeremy Garlick's Advantage China (2024) and Kerry Brown's China Incorporated (either 2023 or 2024).
If you have non-English language proficiencies there are even more opportunities to branch out in sourcing, consistent with WP:GLOBAL. JArthur1984 (talk) 12:00, 15 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
the links call China Authoritarian and I have put the link to support the authoritarian claim.
As for sources that say China is dictatorship:
https://asiasociety.org/policy-institute/decoding-chinese-politics/introduction-black-box-chinese-policy
https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/abs/10.1177/106591295000300104
https://www.econstor.eu/handle/10419/256602
In any case, if your problem is with the word dictatorship but you are ok with Authoritarian, then we can put the word Authoritarian and continue to discuss dictatorship. 85.65.237.103 (talk) 12:49, 15 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Asia Society appears to be an advocacy organization. I think the answer is no; please review prior talk page discussion. Simonm223 (talk) 12:52, 15 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
The second source appears to be a bog-standard misunderstanding of the term "dictatorship of the proletariat" on the part of the IP. Simonm223 (talk) 12:53, 15 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Third source is another advocacy group. Simonm223 (talk) 12:54, 15 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, IP’s misunderstandings reflect one of the reasons I always suggest we avoid characterizations in the government field, and stick to what is more concrete (for example, unitary or federal? How is the executive power held? How many legislative houses? And so on). Concepts, labels, and political signifiers with less agreed upon meanings belong in the article body where they can be presented according to due weight, be sourced, and attributed as necessary. JArthur1984 (talk) 12:59, 15 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
This seems reasonable to me. Simonm223 (talk) 13:18, 15 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
" I always suggest we avoid characterizations in the government field," - since we already doing it (haracterizations in the government field) there is no reason for having exception for China. 85.65.237.103 (talk) 14:06, 15 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Those are in general sources which say that China is authoritarian, but you seem to be presenting them as if they don't? Or are you presenting sources which support authoritarian but not dictatorship? Horse Eye's Back (talk) 15:29, 15 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I was responding to the claim of "dictatorship" with some recent high-quality sources that do not use that characterization.
I don't recall whether these do or do not use the "authoritarian" characterization, with one exception - I am confident that Tsang & Cheung do use it. JArthur1984 (talk) 15:57, 15 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Tsang, Steve; Cheung, Olivia (2022-01-02). "Has Xi Jinping made China's political system more resilient and enduring?". Third World Quarterly. 43 (1): 225–243. doi:10.1080/01436597.2021.2000857. ISSN 0143-6597. Moxy🍁 16:03, 15 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Maybe there is a middle ground here, what about adding authoritarian to the lead but keeping the infobox the same? Horse Eye's Back (talk) 16:13, 15 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I don't mind mentioning prominently that the government is characterized as authoritarian, that's obviously NPOV to me. My concern is having a concrete scope for what the |government_type= parameter is meant to describe. Remsense诉 16:16, 15 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Thank you for articulating it in that way, IMO that is a reasonable concern. Horse Eye's Back (talk) 17:04, 15 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, I felt something was getting lost in translation here, glad I hit upon the right formulation. Remsense诉 17:08, 15 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Thumbsup! Moxy🍁 17:08, 15 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@Remsense but it is part of what |government_type= parameter is meant to describe ArmorredKnight (talk) 18:11, 15 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I don't see anything like that on the documentation page for {{Infobox country}}. Remsense诉 18:14, 15 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, in the lead but not in the infobox makes sense from my perspective as well. JArthur1984 (talk) 17:39, 15 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
it should be in the infobox as well. it is important information and there is a consensus that China is an authoritarian country. so no reason to ommit this information. ArmorredKnight (talk) 18:10, 15 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
except what infoboxes are for and the information they are designed to communicate. where should it go? my entire point is that "authoritarian" is not a government type. Remsense诉 18:12, 15 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
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