Talk:Islamic feminism

Regarding the dress code section.

The time article used as a reference that most Islamic feminists are in favor of the veil doesn't actually make any claim about whether this is the majority view or not, the article only includes the words of Leila Ahmed, however I didn't place (citation needed), and rather simply added whether to veil or not, because this is the stance of the majority since the majority of them don't believe it to be an obligation, but rather a choice that Muslim women are free to make, so they aren't in favor of wearing it only, but in fact a citation needed here would be more accurate.

About the "small fringe" that is used to describe feminists who oppose the veil, to make any claim about whether such stance is the minority or the majority you have to provide a citation that backs this up, saying that this is a small fringe minority would require an even stronger evidence from non-biased sources, but there are none cited, if there are no citations, then it is more appropriate to simply say "some" or "many". Mahmoud9896 (talk) 13:18, 14 July 2023 (UTC)

The article makes no comment on the views of Islamic feminists on the theological semantics of veiling, it only says that Islamic feminists tend to look favorably on veiling as a symbol of "Islamic freedom" as the cited article said. It is also acknowledged in the same section that the veil is controversial IF it is a product of social pressure or coercion, which you seem to agree is the position of most Islamic feminists.

Wrt the wording some/many/small fringe, I guess saying "SOME Islamic feminists oppose the veil" is okay, it's a trivially correct statement whether it is 2% of Islamic feminists or 70% of Islamic feminists who oppose the veil. However the article simply was trying to point out that Islamic feminists are not consistently opposed to the veil itself, only to forcing it. Being against forced prayers or fasting would not constitute opposition to prayer or fasting, similarly opposition to forced hijab says nothing about the views of Islamic feminists or others on hijab itself as a religious/cultural/social practice.

Fwiw Pew polls indicate most American Muslim women veil, though I don't know how many identify themselves as feminists. However many prominent American Muslim feminists like Linda Sarsour, Ilhan Omar, Dalia Mogahed, and so on have publicly talked about hijab as being part of their feminism.

MisterMrX (talk) 18:54, 14 July 2023 (UTC) Strike confirmed sock of Aronanki comments Dreamy Jazz ^{talk to me | my contributions} 12:42, 17 July 2023 (UTC)

Where does the article make a definitive statement about the collective stance of Islamic feminists? please cite the relevant quote here.

Also many Islamic feminists are opposed to veiling as a practice itself, including Mona Eltahawy, Fadela Amara, Hedi Mhenni, Masih Alinejad, Sihem Habchi. etc

The hijab has always been a controversial topic in feminist Islamic spaces, some have positive views of of it, some have negative views of it, some are neutral and just believe that it is a choice that women are free to make or not.

If you are going to cite how many wear the hijab as a form of Islamic freedom and justice and support it, you also have to mention the other negative view of it without bias, so that you can have a more balanced article.

Saying that only a small fringe portion of Islamic feminists oppose it sounds really biased and ideologically connated, better leave it at "some". which provides a more factual and neutral view of it. Mahmoud9896 (talk) 20:32, 14 July 2023 (UTC)

My only input here is to mention that we don't necessarily balance around showing positives and negatives. Our Neutral Point of View policy is that we balance in proportion to what reliable sources say. Of course, sometimes that does mean showing positives and negatives. Other times it means giving greater prominence to one view over another. And in extreme examples where most or all reliable sources agree that one side is right (say, homeopathy or vaccination or the Moon landing), that's what our articles should reflect. It's just something to keep in mind. Woodroar (talk) 21:10, 14 July 2023 (UTC)

Understood, this makes perfect sense indeed, I will keep that in mind. Mahmoud9896 (talk) 21:17, 14 July 2023 (UTC)

This was exactly my problem with the section as originally written. At that time it was weighted way too strongly towards the position that Islamic feminists tend to actively oppose the veil, simply not in line with reality. Aronanki (talk) 21:29, 14 July 2023 (UTC)

Sorry I meant this Wiki article, not the Time article.

Anyway the point that this section is trying to get across as I said is that there is no universal opposition to the veil among Islamic feminists. Aronanki (talk) 23:08, 14 July 2023 (UTC)

It's not like anyone has done a poll of Muslim feminists, however one can observe general cultural and social trends.

Mona Eltahawy is not against hijab anymore. She has actually criticized European feminists harshly for their rhetoric against the veil.

Masih may not even be a Muslim, she has never made any public statements one way or the other. The others you mention are secular French Muslims.

It seems that there are very few actual "Islamic feminists" who oppose hijab. Most of the examples people can find seem to be secular Muslims who are operating from a secular framework and not within the confines of so-called "Islamic feminism". Most of the very prominent Islamic feminists like Leila Ahmed, Amina Wadud, Fatema Mernissi, Dalia Mogahed, Linda Sarsour are either fully pro-hijab or otherwise at least somewhat supportive. Aronanki (talk) 02:34, 17 July 2023 (UTC)

.. Masih may not even be a Muslim, she has never made any public statements one way or the other. The others you mention are secular French Muslims.

..It seems that there are very few actual "Islamic feminists" who oppose hijab. Most of the examples people can find seem to be secular Muslims who are operating from a secular framework and not within the confines of so-called "Islamic feminism". ..

I am afraid, above part of statement seem to border WP:OR if not carefully articulated may risk in WP:Synth. Bookku (talk) 04:14, 17 July 2023 (UTC)

Please cite the relevant reference regarding Mona El Tahawy.

"Masih may not even be a Muslim, she has never made any public statements one way or the other. The others you mention are secular French Muslims."

I think you were corrected elsewhere in the article about this one, so there's no need to repeat it again.

Now lets start with each feminists you have cited here.

1-Leila Ahmed isn't either pro or anti Hijab, she says that the meaning of hijab is always local, while she acknowledges that in the US the hijab is positive, she acknowledges that elsewhere in many Muslim countries it is negative.

2-Amina Wadud is another one with a moderate stance on hijab, she believes that it isn't religiously required, but it is a choice women are free to make.

3-Fatima Mernissi is the worst example you can use here, she considers it to be a part of the gender-segregation ideal that traditionalist Islam promotes, which seeks to separate women from the public realm, and confine them to the private space, she says in her book veil and the male elite the following quote about the hijab.

"So it is strange indeed to observe the modern course of this

concept, which from the beginning had such a strongly negative

connotation in the Koran. The very sign of the person who is

damned, excluded from the privileges and spiritual grace to which

the Muslim has access, is claimed in our day as a symbol of

Muslim identity, manna for the Muslim woman"

About Dalia Mogahed and Linda Sarsour, yes you are correct.

But on the other hand, you also have feminists like Irshad Manji, Fatima Mernissi, Mona el Tahawy, Olfa Youssef. and many other feminists that are mentioned in the article who have criticized the hijab, historically you also have feminists like Huda Shaarawy, Saiza Nabarawi, Nabawiyyah Musah who were also anti-veiling. Mahmoud9896 (talk) 04:36, 17 July 2023 (UTC)

@Mahmoud9896 It's good that you found out those sock accounts that much confusion is less.

• ".. A small fringe of Islamic feminists,.. oppose hijab.. " This was earlier version
• ".. Some Islamic feminists ,.. oppose hijab.. " was your first change
• ".. On the other side, many Islamic feminists,,.. oppose hijab.. " this was another change you had accepted.

As far as my readings of Islamic feminism goes they hold diverse opinions. Rather than quantifying that (Without support of any RS) how about saying either 'Islamic feminists hold diverse opinions' or 'Islamic feminists hold mixed opinions'? Bookku (talk) 12:40, 17 July 2023 (UTC)

I highly agree with that, I really found that the paragraph " the veil is not controversial in mainstream Islamic feminist discourse" was somewhat inaccurate.

Also I didn't like how "manys" there are, so less quantifying is better. Mahmoud9896 (talk) 17:18, 17 July 2023 (UTC)

Requesting inputs at AFD - Islamic Bill of Rights for Women in the Mosque

Requesting inputs at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Islamic Bill of Rights for Women in the Mosque (2nd nomination) discussion. - Bookku (talk) 05:14, 23 August 2023 (UTC)

Wiki Education assignment: Gender and Technoculture 320-03

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Wiki Education assignment: Gender and Technoculture 320-01

This article was the subject of a Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment, between 22 January 2024 and 10 May 2024. Further details are available on the course page. Student editor(s): Glo.rriaa (article contribs).

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